Low Power Variable Scope and Iron Sights....

[Cookie Monster]

Got the rifle, got the scope, and the mount comes on the 6th. Scope is a 1 to 4, rifle is a 14.5" with pinned flash hider Noveske, mount is a Bobro.

I thought I was done but going down the rabbit hole of off-set iron sights, are they advised, required, not needed? Rifle will be used for classes and home defense, mainly if something is going down in the 5 acre homestead, coyotes after chickens or the rare chance of mountain lion after dogs, or even more rare meth heads parking in driveway.

Brands/models? Looking at the Troy Industries, seem better than the Magpul.

I appreciate any experience, thoughts, or general ramblings.

[Lon]

I am a firm believer in having BUIS. For the rifle you describe, I personally would use off set irons. I used the. For several years on my 3 gun rifle. Incredibly fats transition once you get used to it. I used them for anything inside 25 yards most of the time.

Only reason I stopped using them was because I switched divisions and replaced them with an RMR offset to my 3-9 scope.

Dueck Defense makes a nice pair as well. I used Daniel Defense fixed sights off set on my JP forearm on small sections of rail. Today I'd probably go with the Dueck Defense sights.

[breakingtime91]

I am a firm believer in having BUIS. For the rifle you describe, I personally would use off set irons. I used the. For several years on my 3 gun rifle. Incredibly fats transition once you get used to it. I used them for anything inside 25 yards most of the time.

Only reason I stopped using them was because I switched divisions and replaced them with an RMR offset to my 3-9 scope.

Dueck Defense makes a nice pair as well. I used Daniel Defense fixed sights off set on my JP forearm on small sections of rail. Today I'd probably go with the Dueck Defense sights.

For 1-4 use a QD mount and foldable buis

[HCM]

I lean towards a mini red dot (RMR/ micro etc) but has anyone actually used the XS off sets ?

http://www.brownells.com/manufacturers/XS%20SIGHT%20SYSTEMS/index.htm?r_o=12&avs%7CStyle_1=Offset

[Gray222]

For 1-4 use a QD mount and foldable buis

This is what i run

[texasaggie2005]

For 1-4 use a QD mount and foldable buis

Just to be a devil's advocate; why not offset folders and a lightweight fixed mount for the LPV? It'll save you a few ounces of weight.

(I ask, because I plan on selling my MRO soon and moving to a LPV, and this was my plan.)

[Lon]

There's two different philosophies here. One is that your BUIS are strictly for when your scope breaks. If that's what you want the BUIS for, then folding BUIS and a quick detach mount are fine. The other philosophy is what I think the OP is getting at - being able to use your BUIS interchangeable with your optic. Off set sights are the best way to do this (unless you mount a MRDS instead). The transition between optic and irons is very fast. Not necessary when you're running your 1-4 in 1x, but comes in handy when you're running it on a higher magnification. Quicker than running the optic back to 1x.

[GJM]

Lon, do you feel the quick access to offset iron sights has advantages beyond gaming, with, for example, a 1-4 LPV? When hunting, I always leave my variable set on the lowest power, turn it up higher for a longer shot, and return to lowest power after the shot. My thinking is that at the distances requiring more magnification, it is going to take me longer to get into a shooting position and be deliberate on the trigger, with the change to the scope not slowing that process down enough to matter.

[Lon]

I do think they have benefits across the board. I think we all agree that BUIS are a must on any serious use AR, be it hunting, gaming or duty use. Many who have BUIS have quick detach mounts so that they can get their irons up and running quickly should their scope crap out. The point, for most, is getting the rifle back in service quickly.

On rifles with full length rails, what's quicker? Taking a scope off, flipping a rear (and probably a front as well) sight up and getting back on target or rotating the rifle 30 degrees and getting back on target?

On rifles like my work rifle, which has a fixed front sight and no top rail, offset irons aren't practical.

I don't see any downsides to them, really. The good ones are just as sturdy as any other irons and they aren't in the way. So why not use them?

[GJM]

I haven't used them. Any special considerations in zeroing or shooting due to the offset?

[SLG]

I do think they have benefits across the board. I think we all agree that BUIS are a must on any serious use AR, be it hunting, gaming or duty use. Many who have BUIS have quick detach mounts so that they can get their irons up and running quickly should their scope crap out. The point, for most, is getting the rifle back in service quickly.

On rifles with full length rails, what's quicker? Taking a scope off, flipping a rear (and probably a front as well) sight up and getting back on target or rotating the rifle 30 degrees and getting back on target?

On rifles like my work rifle, which has a fixed front sight and no top rail, offset irons aren't practical.

I don't see any downsides to them, really. The good ones are just as sturdy as any other irons and they aren't in the way. So why not use them?

I wouldnt argue that anyone should change, but i dont really feel this way anymore. I run a scope up top, and an offset micro on most of my rifles. Rarely do i put irons on anymore.

[Lon]

Nope. Not that I've seen. I zeroed mine at 50 just like my regular irons and away I went.

[breakingtime91]

Just to be a devil's advocate; why not offset folders and a lightweight fixed mount for the LPV? It'll save you a few ounces of weight.

(I ask, because I plan on selling my MRO soon and moving to a LPV, and this was my plan.)

I spent some time in closed confines with my carbine before. I always felt anything hanging off at an angle just adds stuff to snag. I think either can work but have found that if my lpv goes down, it will be much easier for me to hit out to 100m+ with foldable sights then sights at an angle. YMMV.

[TAZ]

In the same boat as I'm looking at topping off my latest build with an LPV. I'm leaning towards a set of offset BUIS simply cause IMO it can be used in an RFN type emergency while QD mount and standard BUIS may not. What are the chances that you'll have your scope crap out and become useless while something needs shooting RFN?? Who knows, but better to have and not need than need and not have.

[Cookie Monster]

I think the main part of my question, is that if the scope goes down is removing the scope and flipping up the irons really back-up sights or is a better methodology would be installing offset sights?

I think I am gaming if if a dire moment when zombies all around, do I want to be removing my scope, etc. I also see scenarios where I am fumbling with my scope to go back to one power or to find a close target when I should be shooting it. I can see an offset mini red dot but I think I am running up against some budget limits.

But man I am thinking about another Midway order the the off-set irons, when will the madness end?

[Lon]

I run a scope up top, and an offset micro on most of my rifles.

I can't argue with that. That's the way I ran my last 3 gun rifle (I shot Trooper division). I had a 3-9 on top with an RMR offset. I was using a Warne RAMP mount. Worked really well. When I was in a TacOptics I ran a 1.5-5 with my offset irons.

I'm getting ready to build another upper to replace my current 3G rifle and I'm probably going to go with a LPV (maybe a 1-5 or 1-6x). Not sure which way I'll end up going. It'll be an offset something. There is a part of me that really likes having something that doesn't take batteries or have glass as a back up on my carry and work guns. This upper will fill a work/3G role.

[StraitR]

Lon, do you feel the quick access to offset iron sights has advantages beyond gaming, with, for example, a 1-4 LPV? When hunting, I always leave my variable set on the lowest power, turn it up higher for a longer shot, and return to lowest power after the shot. My thinking is that at the distances requiring more magnification, it is going to take me longer to get into a shooting position and be deliberate on the trigger, with the change to the scope not slowing that process down enough to matter.

GJM, that is the exact conclusion I've come to in regards to using 1-X LPV's, and why I don't bother with offset sights of any kind to accompany my TR24.

That being said, I'm thinking through whether or not I want an offset something or other on my 300blk hunting rifle that has a 3-9 VX-R Patrol. I have an RMR that I don't really use for anything, so I'm leaning toward that, but can't find an available mount that I like (need an actual RMR mount, not an offset pic rail). KAC just released an updated version of their offset micros, which are tempting as well, but I like the MRDS idea better. Then again, do I actually need it given my normal stand set up? Dunno, that's my plight and what I'm trying decide. Decisions, decisions.

[littlejerry]

I wouldnt argue that anyone should change, but i dont really feel this way anymore. I run a scope up top, and an offset micro on most of my rifles. Rarely do i put irons on anymore.

What micro mount are you using?

[SLG]

What micro mount are you using?

The Larue. Not perfect but the best I've found.

[MVS]

This topic came up recently in conversation with a BTDT spec ops guy I used to teach in the same organization with. He shocked me when he said that he no longer uses BUIS at all and that it was becoming that way with a number of guys he served with right before he retired. I was very surprised to hear this.

[Lon]

Article on the topic at hand:http://www.recoilweb.com/back-up-iron-sights-78135.html

From Frank Proctor:

“I’ve not seen an optic fail. And, I’ve never experienced a failure that could have been fixed by back-up irons,” says Proctor, “It’s just added weight and expense, and I don’t put them on my gun unless I’m shooting irons."

I'm not quite as trusting when it comes to optics. Had a Aimpoint T-1 take a dump on me on a SWAT mission a few years ago (a barricade subject who decided shooting up the neighborhood from his house was a good idea. One of our snipers ended up taking him out). Finished the mission with my BUIS.

[Gray222]

I have seen optics fail, seen optics get beat up, broken during use / hard use and sometimes the simple replacement of batteries fails the optic at that specific moment.

I've used troy dioptic, which are nice sights. Best sights I've ever used are the SCAR oem sights, maybe because of the height? But they are awesome. KAC sights are a very close second.

I currently have standard KAC micro's and the new magpul pro sights, both work really well, both are set and forget.

[Maple Syrup Actual]

I lean towards a mini red dot (RMR/ micro etc) but has anyone actually used the XS off sets ?

http://www.brownells.com/manufacturers/XS%20SIGHT%20SYSTEMS/index.htm?r_o=12&avs%7CStyle_1=Offset

I believe the XS sights, which I really thought would be a good option for this application, are too close to the bore. If they do a gen 2 that's a normal height off the bore, I'm totally interested.


Aside from that, while I've never broken an optic, I like offset irons because if I wasn't paranoid, I wouldn't have several ARs in the first place. I live in CANADA.



And transitioning to 45 degree offsets is really quick if I'm gaming.

[littlejerry]

I've seen 2 modern optics fail:

1. Friends PA micro dot literally disassembled itself at the batter compartment after 3 years of moderate use. No recovery- it was done.

2. At the July OK Run m Gun one co petitor fell through the rope bridge and one of the turrets on his Leopold LPV caught a rope. Turret was snapped off, zero lost.

I've seen a number of older budget optics fail. Typically they developed wandering zeros at some point in their life.

[Sigfan26]

Occluded Eye Gunsight comes to mind in this discussion. Discuss (I got no dog in the fight)

[HCM]

Occluded Eye Gunsight comes to mind in this discussion. Discuss (I got no dog in the fight)

Kick'in it old school but they work better than you might think with a little effort.

[HCM]

I believe the XS sights, which I really thought would be a good option for this application, are too close to the bore. If they do a gen 2 that's a normal height off the bore, I'm totally interested.


Aside from that, while I've never broken an optic, I like offset irons because if I wasn't paranoid, I wouldn't have several ARs in the first place. I live in CANADA.



And transitioning to 45 degree offsets is really quick if I'm gaming.

Thanks. That's what I was thinking. I have the XS lever gun sights ( ghost ring and stripe front) on my guide gun. I'm thinking an XS stripe front and the large aperture rear would be a goof off set set up.

[GJM]

Based on my Pat Rogers training, if I lived in Canada, I would definitely go with offset iron sights on my AR.

[LittleLebowski]

I've seen 2 modern optics fail:

1. Friends PA micro dot literally disassembled itself at the batter compartment after 3 years of moderate use. No recovery- it was done.


PA is known for their support of their products, if it's not too late, he should contact PA.

[Unobtanium]

PA is known for their support of their products, if it's not too late, he should contact PA.

PA has replaced 2 broken optics for my friends. I bought them for them as gifts. PA handled the situation even in lieu of them having receipts. I can't say the optics were much good except "this is what an Aimpoint would be like, only crappier..." demo/range tools, but PA is a class act.

[SLG]

Anything can fail. However, I hedge my bets by only using Nightforce and Aimpoint for the application we are discussing. I would say that they are at least as strong as most buis, and though optics can fail in ways that buis cannot, i do not think either of my choices are structurally weaker than most of the buis available. Ive done pull ups on my nf scopes, mounted to the gun. If you could do that with buis, i suspect most would snap off.

[GJM]

Ive done pull ups on my nf scopes, mounted to the gun.

Need photo or video!

[Josh Runkle]

I don't really believe in buis for my applications anymore. If a rifle already has them, I will confirm zero and leave them alone (I don't care about weight enough to take them off), but if a gun doesn't have them, I don't go out of the way to add them.

Most of my rifles run a red dot of some sort. A few have some sort of variable optic.

For the variable powered optics, if a "dot" goes out, I usually have crosshairs of some sort.

For red dots, at anything under 100 yards, if the dot dies, I will usually "shoot the tube" rather than deploy buis. I had this happen once during a class and literally forgot that I had buis, under the very mild stress of a drill. If you do plan to use buis, spend some decent time practicing deploying and using them.

I've seen batteries die, but I've never seen an optic break. I've seen a LOT of guns break. I think the chances that your gun has a random catastrophic failure are WAY, WAY higher than a high quality optic going down permanently.

If you want a "backup", carry a pistol and practice transition drills.

[Maple Syrup Actual]

Okay, here's something I'm a little confused by. I've never had an optic break but I couldn't possibly count the number of times I've had them fogged or obscured by heavy rain. I joke about paranoia but in reality this is the main reason I like backup irons more than backup optics. My irons never fog out, or get obscured by torrential rain.


Am I really alone in experiencing this a bunch of times?

[SLG]

My scopes dont fog outside, and its hard to do much shooting of anykind in a torrential rain. Normal wet/cold weather hasnt been an issue for me.

[Cookie Monster]

No clear answer like a lot of things, I got the Troy offset sights hanging out in my Midway cart with an X300U for $209.

I think I might pick them up and experience both for my own.

I appreciate all the discussion.

[Tamara]

This topic came up recently in conversation with a BTDT spec ops guy I used to teach in the same organization with. He shocked me when he said that he no longer uses BUIS at all and that it was becoming that way with a number of guys he served with right before he retired. I was very surprised to hear this.

I was feelin' pretty tacticool with my fixed DD A1 BUIS on my current gun until Pat Rogers looked at the thing and asked why, with an Aimpoint Pro on the gun, I even had the things on there at all. :o

{Pat Rogers Voice}"You know how many Aimpoints we've had go down on school guns?" *makes goose egg sign with hand*{Pat Rogers Voice}

[ranger]

I no longer use BUIS or QD styles mounts with my rifles with low power variable scopes. If was "going in arms way" in MIL or LEO then I guess I would however, never had a reason to use BUIS while serving - the scopes and/or dots always worked (even the EOTECH). Thank goodness I no longer HAVE to go out in torrential rain anymore!

[punkey71]

Okay, here's something I'm a little confused by. I've never had an optic break but I couldn't possibly count the number of times I've had them fogged or obscured by heavy rain. I joke about paranoia but in reality this is the main reason I like backup irons more than backup optics. My irons never fog out, or get obscured by torrential rain.


Am I really alone in experiencing this a bunch of times?

Rain/fog is the most honest reason I have them on my ARs. It's also the reason they're off-set despite being behind a QD'd T-1 and a QD'd LPV.

Folks have inquired (some times politely, some times NOT) why on earth they are off-set it they aren't under an optic and/or the optic has a QD mount.

Honestly, I didn't get off-sets (MBUS PROs) until I did a fair amount of shooting in rain/snow.

I've learned a bit about RMRd pistols in rain as well. It wasn't pretty!




Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[punkey71]

http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/16/01/01/ea571cc49392c7cb89602538a6b3e209.jpg

Maybe these ARE the next evolution in RMRd pistols!

Obscured RMR? Sideways brah!

:-)


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[GJM]

Okay, here's something I'm a little confused by. I've never had an optic break but I couldn't possibly count the number of times I've had them fogged or obscured by heavy rain. I joke about paranoia but in reality this is the main reason I like backup irons more than backup optics. My irons never fog out, or get obscured by torrential rain.


Am I really alone in experiencing this a bunch of times?

My wife and I have experienced problems with scopes fogging while trying to shoot animals, most frequently moose when hunting on and near water, especially early in the morning. BUIS would not have helped, as there would not have been the time to ditch the optic, and even if co-witnessed, the fog on the optic would obscure the BUIS as well. We now religiously keep soft Leupold covers over our scopes to try to prevent fogging in these conditions, but sometimes when a rifle is in the bottom of the inflatable canoe, there is still fogging.

Times like these:

http://i250.photobucket.com/albums/gg251/GJMandes/image.jpg1_zpsb6wrwnmk.jpg (http://s250.photobucket.com/user/GJMandes/media/image.jpg1_zpsb6wrwnmk.jpg.html)

http://i250.photobucket.com/albums/gg251/GJMandes/P1000625%201_zpsncwgnszt.jpg (http://s250.photobucket.com/user/GJMandes/media/P1000625%201_zpsncwgnszt.jpg.html)

[Lon]

BUIS would not have helped, as there would not have been the time to ditch the optic, and even if co-witnessed, the fog on the optic would obscure the BUIS as well.

Sounds like off set BUIS woulda worked.

[Maple Syrup Actual]

Well, I've seen fogged...everything; maybe it's just the climate here but I can hardly think of a brand of optics I've never seen fogged up. Certainly most of the usual high-quality suspects. My T1 spent about 25% of a four-day course getting wiped between every drill to make it useable.

And while I'd rather be relaxing inside when it's pouring, sometimes I've paid to be somewhere on a given weekend and it's pouring and the event's still going on, so I'm shooting it.




Here's a product I happened to stumble across a few minutes ago that I'm now interested in checking out...
http://zerobravo.com/store/pc/viewPrd.asp?idproduct=2&idcategory=

Going to see if they'll send a set to the magazine.

[Tamara]

Yeah, the Colt/Noveske that I'm putting the MTAC on is going to wind up with offset irons, even if they wind up being just a ballistic woobie.

[GJM]

Sounds like off set BUIS woulda worked.

Perhaps theoretically, but I have never seen a set on the bolt rifles I hunt with.

[Maple Syrup Actual]

My wife and I have experienced problems with scopes fogging while trying to shoot animals, most frequently moose when hunting on and near water, especially early in the morning. BUIS would not have helped, as there would not have been the time to ditch the optic, and even if co-witnessed, the fog on the optic would obscure the BUIS as well. We now religiously keep soft Leupold covers over our scopes to try to prevent fogging in these conditions, but sometimes when a rifle is in the bottom of the inflatable canoe, there is still fogging.

Times like these:

http://i250.photobucket.com/albums/gg251/GJMandes/image.jpg1_zpsb6wrwnmk.jpg (http://s250.photobucket.com/user/GJMandes/media/image.jpg1_zpsb6wrwnmk.jpg.html)

http://i250.photobucket.com/albums/gg251/GJMandes/P1000625%201_zpsncwgnszt.jpg (http://s250.photobucket.com/user/GJMandes/media/P1000625%201_zpsncwgnszt.jpg.html)

See, this is exactly what I'm talking about. This is why I use offsets. One way or another, EVERYTHING can get fogged up in the right conditions, and if you have to look through it to make your backup work, or if your backup has glass as well...good luck.

[Tamara]

Perhaps theoretically, but I have never seen a set on the bolt rifles I hunt with.

Hmmm... I wonder if that'd be an idea for a new iteration of those Alaska-oriented leverguns?

[Maple Syrup Actual]

These happen to be on an AR but if you have a 30mm tube on one of the leverguns it could be done...

http://zerobravo.com/store/pc/catalog/REOS_L_4.jpg

[GJM]

Hmmm... I wonder if that'd be an idea for a new iteration of those Alaska-oriented leverguns?

Practically, I don't think so.

When it is crappy, and the hunting distances are close or it is a defensive long gun, we remove our optics and use the iron sights our long guns have. And even when it is crappy, and you are shooting moose at 300 yards, I would rather wipe the fog off my optics, then shoot with iron sights. That said, there is one time I remember, that offset sights on my bolt would have helped a lot. I copied this passage from my blog post on it, and am pasting it in here, as it was silly enough.


I just love a 5-10 minute nap mid-day, as they leave me feeling ready to go full speed into the evening. I was completely out, when I heard Astro start whining softly. I said “quiet, Astro,” but she continued. Still laying down in the canoe, I tilted my hat enough to see out with one eye, and saw the antlers of a bull moose walking through the brush. I pondered for a second whether I was dreaming, realized I wasn’t, and sat up in the boat. Sure enough, there was a bull walking towards me unaware. I reached down, grabbed the waterproof case holding my rifle, unfastened it, worked the action to chamber a round, and threw the rifle to my shoulder. Ughhh, the darn scope was fogged, and I couldn’t see through it. At that moment, the moose stopped and started looking at me, and in a flash I realized being downwind of us, he had probably scented me. I reached up and wiped the back lens of the scope with my hand, and while better, I couldn’t make out the moose clearly through the moisture. I decided it was now or never, put the middle of the chest of the moose in the middle of the scope and fired a shot. As I immediately worked the bolt, and tried to stand, my weight shifted on the tube of the canoe and I went over backwards into the stream. Except for the situation, it would have been comical, me out flat in the water, holding the rifle above the water. I jumped up, and could see no sign of the moose.

A few seconds later, Charlie came running at full speed. She heard the shot, heard me exclaim an expletive, which was as I fell in, Astro excited, and thought that we were attacked by a bear.

We couldn't locate that moose, but several days later, I shot it pretty close to there, and recovered the non-fatal bullet I had fired through the fogged scope. This was the moose, and it was a dandy.

http://i250.photobucket.com/albums/gg251/GJMandes/P1020933_zpskgtnvxgx.jpg (http://s250.photobucket.com/user/GJMandes/media/P1020933_zpskgtnvxgx.jpg.html)

[SLG]

I have very little experience hunting anything around water, and never from a canoe. My scopes have frosting issues when going from a cold environment to a warm environment. Only an issue tactically, not for game hunting.

Fogging, is an issue with cheaper scopes, and usually means a seal is damaged. Fogging occurs on the inside of the scope, or at least thats what ive always been taught.

If you breath on your ocular, while hunting in the cold, you will frost your lens. Dont do that and you wont have that problem.

Water will interfere with a sight picture as well, but it can often be wiped off enough to be usable. Not always, but then, how far can you really see in a heavy rain?

What is causing your lenses to become obscured?

[GJM]

Condensation that forms on the outside lenses of the scope in moist conditions of rain, fog and close temp/dew point spreads.

[Maple Syrup Actual]

That's a good description of what I most frequently experience also.

Yes, I can generally wipe the optic clear but if I'm experiencing this regularly, and there's a simple hardware fix...why wouldn't I use that?

[Lon]

Perhaps theoretically, but I have never seen a set on the bolt rifles I hunt with.

Ok. Gotcha. Do you have a picatinny mount for your rings? The only thing I could think of for that situation would be something like this:

5230

Mounted on this:http://www.jprifles.com/buy.php?item=JPROS-L

Not sure how practical that would be.

[BobM]

Most of our rifles in the cruiser racks have Aimpoint M4s. A couple of them have quit working over the years and I can bring myself to remove the BUIS.

[breakingtime91]

I just don't understand why you wouldnt have a back up? what does it hurt?

[Tamara]

So...while I'm here, I might as well ask the hive mind: Which offset irons are cool and which are teh suck?

Besides the aforementioned Duecks, I'm assuming SureFire and GG&G are decent? Don't think I want folding ones, else I'd buy Magpul and be done.

[Maple Syrup Actual]

I believe the SFs are rebranded Duecks? The GG&Gs I have never seen in person.

[Lon]

So...while I'm here, I might as well ask the hive mind: Which offset irons are cool and which are teh suck?

Besides the aforementioned Duecks, I'm assuming SureFire and GG&G are decent? Don't think I want folding ones, else I'd buy Magpul and be done.

I'd go with the Dueck Defense.

[Cookie Monster]

What about these:

http://www.midwayusa.com/product/533080/troy-industries-offset-flip-up-battle-sight-set-m4-style-front-dioptic-rear-ar-15-aluminum

[Cookie Monster]

Dueck Defense has offset sites with trigicon or fiber optics. Rethinking the Troy sights.

[Lomshek]

Can anyone answer why the Dueck rear has an A2 style elevation drum? Since they use a standard A2 front post it has elevation adjustment for zero. Are receivers and forearm rails so jacked up sometimes that one needs to dial in bunches of MOA on the rear to get zeroed?

[StraitR]

Can anyone answer why the Dueck rear has an A2 style elevation drum? Since they use a standard A2 front post it has elevation adjustment for zero. Are receivers and forearm rails so jacked up sometimes that one needs to dial in bunches of MOA on the rear to get zeroed?

Drums on A2 sights, typically marked 8/3 for M16 or 6/3 for M4, are used for elevation adjustment when shooting 800-700-600-500-400-300 meters, and is not used for zeroing. For zeroing, set rear drum on Z, then adjust elevation on the front post.

ETA: Excellent article on Battle Sight Zero (BZO) and Improved Battle Sight Zero...

https://robarguns.com/blog/2013/11/24/battle-sight-zero-bzo-who-has-it-right/

And

Marine Corp MCRP 3-01A Rifle Marksmanship (https://archive.org/stream/MCRP3-01A#page/n0/mode/2up)

[Lomshek]

Drums on A2 sights, typically marked 8/3 for M16 or 6/3 for M4, are used for elevation adjustment when shooting 800-700-600-500-400-300 meters, and is not used for zeroing. For zeroing, set rear drum on Z, then adjust elevation on the front post.

ETA: Excellent article on Battle Sight Zero (BZO) and Improved Battle Sight Zero...

https://robarguns.com/blog/2013/11/24/battle-sight-zero-bzo-who-has-it-right/

And

Marine Corp MCRP 3-01A Rifle Marksmanship (https://archive.org/stream/MCRP3-01A#page/n0/mode/2up)

I totally understand that (and use the IBSZ myself). It's not exactly sniper school but I'm an Appleseed instructor and do some volunteer rifle training of the local college ROTC cadets and was in the Infantry myself.

My question is why on earth one would design a set of offset back up sights that include an A2 elevation drum when the sights are (I think) meant for nothing but up close shots? It seems like a crazy amount of added complexity and expense for no benefit.
Do many folks transition from their primary sight to the offsets for those difficult 700 yard shots? (rhetorical)

[NickDrak]

So...while I'm here, I might as well ask the hive mind: Which offset irons are cool and which are teh suck?

Besides the aforementioned Duecks, I'm assuming SureFire and GG&G are decent? Don't think I want folding ones, else I'd buy Magpul and be done.

I don't care for any of the fixed offset sights as they all stick out too much. Interferes with some shooting positions and light mounting options & activation of the light.

Ive been running the Magpul MBUS offset PROs and they are very solid, low profile and are easy for me to use out to 100yds.

[Maple Syrup Actual]

Can anyone answer why the Dueck rear has an A2 style elevation drum?
No, I have a pair and it annoys the heck out of me. Just give me a damn A1!

[NickDrak]

Here's pics of my current set-up. Previously had a 16" Noveske SS LW middy that I shot out. I just re-barreled this upper with a new 14.5" BCM BFH Enhance Lightweight middy with a pinned Surefire WarComp 5.56.

Optic is a Vortex Razor HD 1-6X in a Warne X-SKEL mount.

Magpul MBUS PRO offset flip-up iron sights.

5279

5280

5281

[SteveB]

I guess my question is, why use offset irons if your LPV is truly 1X at the low end and has a usable dot? I have that Vortex 1-6 on my 3 gun rifle and use it at 1X like an Aimpoint; seems quicker to me than moving the rifle target to target to acquire different sighting systems?

[GJM]

NickDrak, how do you like the Warne mount?

[NickDrak]

I guess my question is, why use offset irons if your LPV is truly 1X at the low end and has a usable dot? I have that Vortex 1-6 on my 3 gun rifle and use it at 1X like an Aimpoint; seems quicker to me than moving the rifle target to target to acquire different sighting systems?

For me, they are strictly a back-up and are a requirement due to our patrol rifle policy.

[NickDrak]

NickDrak, how do you like the Warne mount?

It's been solid so far and it is lighter than any of the QD mount options. Eye relief works perfect for me on the Vortex 1-6.

[GJM]

It's been solid so far and it is lighter than any of the QD mount options. Eye relief works perfect for me on the Vortex 1-6.

I am assuming the Warne requires a wrench to get off and the offset BUIS allow immediate access to an alternate sighting method?

[NickDrak]

I am assuming the Warne requires a wrench to get off and the offset BUIS allow immediate access to an alternate sighting method?

Correct. The Warne mount is non-QD.

[TiroFijo]

I totally understand that (and use the IBSZ myself). It's not exactly sniper school but I'm an Appleseed instructor and do some volunteer rifle training of the local college ROTC cadets and was in the Infantry myself.

My question is why on earth one would design a set of offset back up sights that include an A2 elevation drum when the sights are (I think) meant for nothing but up close shots? It seems like a crazy amount of added complexity and expense for no benefit.
Do many folks transition from their primary sight to the offsets for those difficult 700 yard shots? (rhetorical)

In addition to "never used at >300 m" (offset sights), people have to realize that in order to match the elevation settings the distance between front and rear sights must be a certain number, not specified by the makers... probably based on the M4, but who knows?

The way I see many of them mounted (all over the place), the elevations won't match anything, and the additional complexity is useless.

[John Hearne]

FWIW, Paul Howe advised that he's never had anyone pass his carbine standards using offset iron sights. I don't recall where the wheels fell off, one would assume there's a scope on there somewhere. Maybe too much magnification for quick up close work?

[GJM]

FWIW, Paul Howe advised that he's never had anyone pass his carbine standards using offset iron sights. I don't recall where the wheels fell off, one would assume there's a scope on there somewhere. Maybe too much magnification for quick up close work?

Can you elaborate, as I am unclear what you are saying -- is the problem the scope or offset irons?

[Unobtanium]

It's been solid so far and it is lighter than any of the QD mount options. Eye relief works perfect for me on the Vortex 1-6.

IMO they are still pigs. Nightforce Unimount is significantly lighter. The Warne is only 1/2oz lighter than a LaRue LT104...

[breakingtime91]

I don't get not having qd availability? My larue has been perfect over 1400 rounds, being dropped, and being removed to check iron zero several times.

[KevinB]

I'm assuming Paul in his ways requires folks to run the drills with irons -- for folks only using offsets, it would be a little tougher.

I'm pretty meh about BIS these days, offsets I think the KAC ones are the best bet - as they fold.

More and more serious guns are leaving the arms rooms without any back ups - as the reliability of day optics have come so far.

[rob_s]

Ive been running the Magpul MBUS offset PROs and they are very solid, low profile and are easy for me to use out to 100yds.

That's my plan. They are stowable with the small aperture deployed, yes?

[Unobtanium]

I don't get not having qd availability? My larue has been perfect over 1400 rounds, being dropped, and being removed to check iron zero several times.

They knock loose, loosen over time, fall apart on .308 guns, etc. etc.

[breakingtime91]

They knock loose, loosen over time, fall apart on .308 guns, etc. etc.

I'll keep an eye on it but nothing as of yet. I have witness marks to see if the tension is loosening (like I do with everything else) and not a budge.. I also don't patrol 8 hrs a day anymore so ya lol.

[SLG]

They knock loose, loosen over time, fall apart on .308 guns, etc. etc.

I've never seen or heard of this with properly mounted larue's. 100's of guns, ime. I currently prefer the NF Unimount for most applications, but the Larue didn't just stop working.

Can you elaborate?

[NickDrak]

That's my plan. They are stowable with the small aperture deployed, yes?

Yes.

[NickDrak]

IMO they are still pigs. Nightforce Unimount is significantly lighter. The Warne is only 1/2oz lighter than a LaRue LT104...

I was originally looking at the Unimount but couldn't find one extended enough with the same height as my X-SKEL.

[NickDrak]

I've never seen or heard of this with properly mounted larue's. 100's of guns, ime. I currently prefer the NF Unimount for most applications, but the Larue didn't just stop working.

Can you elaborate?

I witnessed something like 70% of all the LaRue QD mounts in a Shrek "Heavy carbine" class loosen up by the end of day 1. Shrek said that is what he consistently sees in his classes regardless of how they are mounted. These were all on .308 AR type guns. He said no issues with QD mounts on 5.56 guns.

I was running a Bobro QD mount on a LaRue .308 gun and my mount broke on day 2.

[GJM]

I will need to keep notes to remember that the SCAR H is hard on optics but the Larue .308 is hard on Larue mounts.

What is the strongest 30mm mount?

[SLG]

I witnessed something like 70% of all the LaRue QD mounts in a Shrek "Heavy carbine" class loosen up by the end of day 1. Shrek said that is what he consistently sees in his classes regardless of how they are mounted. These were all on .308 AR type guns. He said no issues with QD mounts on 5.56 guns.

I was running a Bobro QD mount on a LaRue .308 gun and my mount broke on day 2.

I have much less 308 experience with them, and should have clarified that I meant 5.56. On the relatively few 308's I can speak in depth about, I didn't see any problems, but I can't speak more broadly than that. If Shrek says they fell apart, even when put on correctly, I believe him, but ime, most mounts are not put on correctly.

[GJM]

I have much less 308 experience with them, and should have clarified that I meant 5.56. On the relatively few 308's I can speak in depth about, I didn't see any problems, but I can't speak more broadly than that. If Shrek says they fell apart, even when put on correctly, I believe him, but ime, most mounts are not put on correctly.

What is the correct way?

[NickDrak]

I will need to keep notes to remember that the Larue .308 is hard on Larue and Bobro mounts.

What is the strongest 30mm mount?

My guess would be something like a Sphur mount?

[NickDrak]

I have much less 308 experience with them, and should have clarified that I meant 5.56. On the relatively few 308's I can speak in depth about, I didn't see any problems, but I can't speak more broadly than that. If Shrek says they fell apart, even when put on correctly, I believe him, but ime, most mounts are not put on correctly.

Not "fell apart", just loosened up in the rail and lost zero.

[NickDrak]

What is the correct way?

My take away is....

Don't run QD scope mounts on .308 gas guns.

[NickDrak]

This was my Bobro mount for reference. The two screws that hold the aluminum recoil lug/cross bar on sheared off at the base.

5286

[smithjd]

I will need to keep notes to remember that the SCAR H is hard on optics but the Larue .308 is hard on Larue mounts.

What is the strongest 30mm mount?

I use the ADM Delta mount on my SCAR 17, for a NF 2.5x10x32. Don't know if it is the strongest, but it is beefy.

https://www.americandefensemanufacturing.com/browse/category/mounts/opticmounts/scopemounts/ar10-.-scar-scope-mounts/

[SLG]

NF Unimount is awesome with all sorts of recoil.

Correct way to mount a Larue, after the usual practice of pushing it forward in hte slots, is to use the wrench to tighten the nuts down correctly, so that the levers will barely move with hand pressure. I usually make mine tight enough so that hand pressure wont really move them, and it takes my sling strap to pop the levers.

I was a Larue user before they were commercially available. Mark once told me that he put the lock on the lever because no one tightened the levers enough, not because the lock was really needed.

[Tamara]

5286

*wipes hands on red shop rag*

"I think I see your problem..."

[Unobtanium]

I will need to keep notes to remember that the SCAR H is hard on optics but the Larue .308 is hard on Larue mounts.

What is the strongest 30mm mount?

The NF Unimount is a very proven solution.
So is the KAC "Unimount".
I SUSPECT that the new Geissele mount, available in a few weeks, is also going to be very adequate.
I am personally not a fan of SPUHR. Physics seems to dictate that there are better options out there.

The rings are pretty wide. The torque required/spec'ed is low. This means minimal deformation of the scope tube. Manufacturers INTEND for this scope tube to deform. That is how rings work. They compress the tube, which springs back against them, which creates the friction that holds the optic in place.

To validate physics, SPUHR recommends that scopes be bedded with rosin in the mount. NF, KAC, etc. don't require such shenanigans.

Also, of questionable data, Grant of G&R alleges that he has footage from FN showing properly tightened LT mounts slopping back and forth during recoil in their 1913 slots. Take that FWIW, I am just the messenger on that one...

[Unobtanium]

NF Unimount is awesome with all sorts of recoil.

Correct way to mount a Larue, after the usual practice of pushing it forward in hte slots, is to use the wrench to tighten the nuts down correctly, so that the levers will barely move with hand pressure. I usually make mine tight enough so that hand pressure wont really move them, and it takes my sling strap to pop the levers.

I was a Larue user before they were commercially available. Mark once told me that he put the lock on the lever because no one tightened the levers enough, not because the lock was really needed.

On a .308 gun, how does the rail look after a few thousand rounds? Any deformity maybe? Those "contact patches" are rather small, seems to ultimately be the issue.

[KevinB]

Also, of questionable data, Grant of G&R alleges that he has footage from FN showing properly tightened LT mounts slopping back and forth during recoil in their 1913 slots. Take that FWIW, I am just the messenger on that one...

I'm really curious who would have provided that to Grant, if a video like that existed.
1) It would violate NDA's and Company Policies to disclose testing data to a third party.
2) FNA does not take stuff like that casually

Having seen highspeed video of countless mounts on 762 guns.
Guess what they all move a bit -- the degree of movement is the issue.

Anyone's mount will cause slight burnishing of the 1913 rail slots even if properly torqued.
I've seen it on KAC, NightForce, etc.

I've used LT mounts on 5.56mm, 7.62 and larger guns.
I am a "over tightener" of them, as I don't intend to pull them off unless a catastrophic issue - but I used to use a loop of paracord to pop the levers when using them overseas.

[Unobtanium]

http://vignette3.wikia.nocookie.net/dragonage/images/2/2a/Anchorman-well-that-escalated-quickly.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20120921164818

[secondstoryguy]

With tiny BUIS on the market like these from Bobro:http://www.bobroengineering.com/view/product/49/, why not have them on the rifle? Hell they even fit under most scopes...