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View Full Version : Plastic Guns & Grip Reductions



JV_
10-03-2011, 03:53 PM
All of this talk about the Gen4 frames flexing differently than Gen3 frames, and potential the ejector implications, have me wondering about aftermarket grip reductions.

Do any of you have a grip reduced Gen3 frame and experienced odd performance problems when it returned?

fuse
10-03-2011, 04:31 PM
Nope.

Though the 3 grip reduced Glocks I have all use the HRED, which I have a huge man crush on. Before, with one of the guns I'd get occasional brass in the face. I believe it was happening before getting chopped up, but I'm not sure. It is a newer glock.

People have been chopping Glocks for a long long time.

JV_
10-03-2011, 04:51 PM
People have been chopping Glocks for a long long time.Yup, and I've shot a few of the hack jobs where the mag sticks in the magwell because they deformed it during the reduction process. Plus, I wonder if most people shoot enough, and maintain the sufficient records, to notice a decline in reliability.

YVK
10-04-2011, 12:03 AM
Close to twelve thousand rounds through Bowie-reduced 3d gen Glock 19 without any problems. I actually think that grip-reduced ones may have stiffer frames and therefore flex less.

JV_
10-04-2011, 06:21 AM
I actually think that grip-reduced ones may have stiffer frames and therefore flex less.Because the channel is often filled?

YVK
10-04-2011, 08:59 AM
Because the channel is often filled?

Exactly, JV. Bowie and many others use epoxy to fill it, creating a "spine" along the backstrap. Of course, the rigidity change is purely speculative since there is no way to measure flex, is there?

VolGrad
10-04-2011, 09:08 AM
I have a pair of GLOCKs done by Boresight Solutions. One has been used in several multi-day pistol classes (including the AFHF) with zero reliability issues. The other has only been used in one class (and only during the night fire portion). However, it has also had zero reliability issues.

fuse
10-04-2011, 09:15 AM
I think if there were an epidemic of frames falling apart we'd have heard about it.

JV_
10-04-2011, 09:38 AM
I think if there were an epidemic of frames falling apart we'd have heard about it.I'm not implying that they're falling apart, or it's an epidemic. I'm just saying that if the ejection problem is induced by frame flex, folks should be more careful about letting someone remove material from their frames.

peterb
10-04-2011, 09:48 AM
Of course, the rigidity change is purely speculative since there is no way to measure flex, is there?

There is. You have to figure out which direction(s) you want to measure flex, build a rigid fixture to support the item being tested, and have a means to apply a measured load and measure deflection. Could be as simple as a hydraulic ram with a load cell and a dial indicator. Commercial materials test labs have equipment for this -- Instron is one of the most common manufacturers.

JV_
10-04-2011, 09:56 AM
and have a means to apply a measured load and measure deflection.I don't think it's that easy. If you watch the slow motion video of a Glock being fired, you see all kinds of flex in ways that seem nonstandard.

orionz06
10-04-2011, 10:10 AM
My opinion of the reductions, relative to flex that might impact the ejector, is that filling/reducing matters very little.

peterb
10-04-2011, 10:53 AM
I don't think it's that easy. If you watch the slow motion video of a Glock being fired, you see all kinds of flex in ways that seem nonstandard.

Ah, the joys of experimental design! What exactly am I trying to measure? Can I break down a complex event into a series of simple ones that are easier to measure? Would that data be useful? And so on...

You could measure deflection vs. load in multiple directions, including torsion, and come up with good repeatable numbers to characterize the flexibility of standard vs. modified frames. That's basic engineering. If you have a good solid model and appropriate software you can do it all on a computer -- but you should still validate your results.

Would it tell you anything about the behavior while firing? That's a whole different question. Software simulations would be complex. You might try analyzing high-speed video of the frame while the gun is being fired to see if the static deflections can be seen as dynamic events. You could also put accelerometers on the frame, or use non-contact surface velocity sensing.

You'd also have the question of how being handheld vs. held in a fixture affects the results....

Measuring static flex shouldn't be hard. Quantifying the effects of different kinds of flex on function could be.

JV_
10-04-2011, 10:58 AM
Did I just hear someone volunteer?

orionz06
10-04-2011, 11:39 AM
If someone gets me a solid model I am sure I could do some FEA on it, but I think the answer is much more simple, as stated above. Highspeed footage being the next step prior to FEA.

Spr1
10-04-2011, 11:43 AM
Trying to model the hand to grip frame interface would be the most complex aspect IMO. It is also incredibly easy to induce failures by incorrectly fixturing a test article.

Erick Gelhaus
10-11-2011, 10:29 AM
I have had reductions from two different companies and been able to watch two more over time.
- Gen 2 Model 21 with a reduction by ARS back in '04. As it is still just too large for me, it only had about 1000 rounds +/- through it before I sold it. I do not recall any reliability issues with it; however, my focus was more on fit than anything else;
- Gen 3 Model 17 with a reduction by Lew Gosnell (can't recall his company's name). The pistol was used when I got it last year after getting to test (via about 500rds each) a -17, -19 and -26 he had done reductions on. No change in reliability from any older production Gen 3 -17 I've previously seen, the pistol just plain runs.

Two co-workers have been carrying Glock 21s with Robar grip reductions since the '95/'96 time frame. While I don't see them every quarter, I cannot recall seeing any noticeable / remarkable issues with either of them over the last fifteen years.

Yes, I realize these are anecdotal but if anything is happening, nothing has caught my attention to the point where I've started tracking it.

Erick

DocGKR
10-11-2011, 02:07 PM
Erick--Good to see you here!

For those of you who do not know him, Erick is an EXTREMELY experienced LE officer, trainer, armorer, and military combat veteran who I greatly respect and carefully pay attention to, as he offers a wealth of hard won knowledge and insight.

GJM
10-12-2011, 09:41 PM
1) Yes on Erick.

2) I have found the Surefire remote switch doesn't work properly on multiple grip reduced Glocks.

3) While the grip reduced Glock feels good in my hand, on the timer I shoot a stock G17/19 with a Grip Force Adapter better than the grip reduced ones. I also prefer a stock G29 SF to a grip reduced one.

4) I have not noticed any difference in reliability between a stock and grip reduced Glock (Dane Burns or Boresight Solutions).

Al T.
10-14-2011, 08:08 PM
Erick who? Did someone mention 870 shotguns and John Ringo? :D

OP, I've had a reduced grip G26 that has run and run for years. I have a late model G19 that spews brass from 0 to 180 degrees. I'm waiting for the G19 to choke as I slowly drift towards the first 1k of training rounds.