Given up on my Cz-P01, back to the H&K LEM or Try DA/SA ?

[darkparadox]

Originally carried my Glock 26/19 OTWB, once I decided Appendix carry was the right choice (Easier to conceal. Also easier to draw with bum shoulders) My search for a hammer fired pistol began. Tried the H&K P30 LEM V1 initially, carried it 2-3 times and put about 200 rounds through it. Did not take me long to decide that the pistol was too large as an EDC for my preference. Did find it more difficult to shoot compared to my Glock's, but based on the round count never put much thought into it. I then purchased an H&K P2000sk LEM. The overall dimensions worked perfectly for EDC. And the versatility of carrying it with the factory magazine, or a H&K p2000 magazine with an X-grip worked fantastically. Put about 1,000 rounds through this pistol... and came to the conclusion that the LEM had a steep learning curve. On average I'm only able to shoot 100-250 rounds a month, and it was not enough to feel overly confident in my abilities with the pistol.

So I purchased a Cz-P01. Feels great in my hand, conceals well and after the DA pull was lightened up slightly my most accurate pistol. Shot it better than my Glock's right off the bat, and much better than my H&K. This became my EDC. However, out of the 1,500 rounds I have put through it, I have had 4 double feeds with various ammo and two FTE. So my confidence in the pistol is shot.

Right now, I am back to the H&K p2000sk. However I simply cannot master the LEM with the amount of shooting I'm able to do. And I've read the threads of far more experienced and proficient shooters saying it can be a bit challenging comparatively speaking. At this point, curious if I should give an H&K p2000sk DA/SA a try ? Not really sure how to asses if the LEM is the bigger issue or simply the fit of the H&K in my hand ? After a bit of practice the p2000sk was easier to shoot than the p30, which was a good example that just because a pistol feels better in your hand does not necessarily mean it works better for you.

Not comfortable carrying a striker fired pistol even when my Gadgets arrive. The only other option is the Sig p229, but that is a bit bulkier than I would prefer. Has anyone had success with H&K DA/SA pistols, but issues with the LEM on the very same platform ? I have handled a few in DA/SA at various gun stores, the DA pull seems dreadful compared to my Cz or a Sig. And not finding many options to remedy that.

[HopetonBrown]

What's your training background?

Sent from my VS985 4G using Tapatalk

[GJM]

Are you using MecGar or OEM magazines, and if OEM, did you replace the magazine springs with Wolff extra power springs?

All other things being equal, an HK will be more reliable and a CZ easier to shoot. If you want an HK, a P2000 or SK with a DA/SA trigger and Wolff 12 pound hammer spring is easier for me to shoot than a LEM.

[TGS]

Are you quantifying your performance with standardized, repeatable drills and making your judgements?

I'd also consider the answer to your training background.

[CCT125US]

If you want an HK, a P2000 or SK with a DA/SA trigger and Wolff 12 pound hammer spring is easier for me to shoot than a LEM.

I keep looking for a reason to keep my SK V3, that may be it. Not to make it easier than the LEM, but reduce the weight of the DA and reduce fatigue. I think about selling it off every 4 months or so, but never get the nerve.

[GJM]

The Wolff 12 drops right into the P2000, but might take some trimming in the SK. YVK might chime in as he has a GGI SK.

While I don't covet the P2000 DA trigger, with the Wolff it is usable. Same result with that spring in a P30 and P30L.

I can relate to the heavy spring thing as I pulled my USP so much last summer in DA, I hurt my finger.

[LSP972]

I'm a bit curious, darkparadox, as to what your definition of "mastering" a trigger is. And I ask, because while I am not one to try to diagnose that sort of thing over a keyboard, I have converted a fair number of folks to the the LEM without much difficulty.

Still, the LEM is not for everybody, that's certainly true enough. I know experienced shooters who simply do not LIKE it. That said, the DA/SA version of your preferred HK pistols might be the answer you're looking for.

Just remember; DA/SA (or, as some refer to it as TDA-Traditional Double Action) adds another dimension to your manual of arms… decocking after a string of fire, to be specific. Forget to do that, and you're back to pointing an easy-to-make-go-off pistol at yourself when re-holstering.

I am NOT trying to discourage you from exploring the DA/SA option… it is one of the better choices for the "casual" shooter. But you do need to be aware of the importance of instilling a decocking reflex in yourself; and that, like trigger discipline/skill, takes time and repetitions.

.

[psalms144.1]

Dark - it's hard to give advice without knowing your background, and how much training (quality training from a competent firearms instructor) you have. I will say, as an LE FI for the last couple of decades, I can't count (and don't want to think about) the number of times I've stopped shooters from holstering a cocked-hammer DA/SA pistol; and we carried Sig P228s or other traditional DA/SA Sigs EXCLUSIVELY for the better part of 15 years. As a result, I'm not really a fan of DA/SA - people who think the 10-12# DA trigger pull is "safer" from NDs have never seen reflexive fire occur. But, if you're comfortable and competent with the DA/SA transition, and have ingrained into muscle memory through several thousand repetitions the motion of hitting a decocking lever/button (I still swipe my strong hand thumb down the grip of my issued P229R DAK at the end of every string in our course of fire - I can't stop myself), then more power to you.

On specific pistols, I'm a BIG fan of the P2000, I think it's the "pick of the litter" in the HK lineup, personally. Unfortunately, it's hampered with one of the crappiest iterations of HK's DA/SA, and the LEM reset is about as long as any they market. Also, it has HK's very "unique" rear-of-the-frame mounted decocking button - again, if you train to use it, it should be an exclusive thing - because it's placed and works differently than any other decocker I know of.

The P2000sk, for me, doesn't serve a purpose, except for ankle carry. Frankly, when I need to REALLY conceal a firearm (undercover, or in formalish attire - weddings, funerals, etc), I'll take a single stack 9mm over any double-stack - there's that much of a difference in concealment. The sk's short grip is also not maximized for efficient and effective shooting, IMHO.

WRT the LEM itself, while I don't prefer it over striker fired systems, it's not THAT hard to "master," as long as you understand it's purpose. As Nyeti has eloquently pointed out repeatedly, the LEM isn't designed to be a speed-shooting trigger, it's designed to be a DELIBERATE shooting trigger. It needs to be run smoothly and with consistency, not "hammered" like a Glock trigger. I have several shooters on my "squad" who routinely shoot high 290s or "clean" our qual (300/300) using my 9mm P2000 with "TLG" LEM, and they probably shoot 200 rounds A YEAR, or less, in total. But, they're also not trying to keep up with my shooting pace using my G19.

So, at the end of a long ramble, my suggestions would be (a) if you shoot the P01 well and like it, carry your P2Ksk while it goes off to a competent smith for an evaluation (Cajun Gunworks or CZ USA would be my suggestions). If you're totally "over" the P01 (and it happens, I'm not judging, really), then I'd suggest the P2000 over the sk version, in 9mm, with the trigger of your choice. If you want a DA/SA and are willing to train it to be competent, then go for it; the LEM really isn't for everyone.

Hope this helps!

[imp1295]

My only comment is that I was in a similar situation about two years ago.

I had transitioned to the P-01 and was enjoying it until about 1,000 rounds into the 2,000 round test. Which just happened to be during a Tom Givens Combative pistol class in Texas.

I started having a number of FTFs and after Mr. Givens explaining that was a clue and much online research I abandoned the platform for a P30 LEM and eventually a P2000 LEM.

Did I have a "performance" decline? Yes. But, over the last two years I've stuck with it, took more training classes to include training with Wayne Dobbs and Nyeti with the LEM and am fairly pleased with the platform. It has taught me more as a mediocre shooter and although my splits and accuracy are typically about 10-15% lower than with a SFA the reliability of the HK platform and consistency of the LEM has been worth it.

I can still pick up a polymer SFA and shoot it a bit better. But for my needs, that is acceptable given the other advantages of the HK and LEM.

P.S. I still consider other platforms all the time, because buying firearms is fun. But, it only inhibits my progress when I switch platforms too often because I'm not at the level of some on this board who are at a much higher level.


Sent from my brain housing group.

[GJM]

I think magazines, and to a lesser degree sights, are the weak link if the P01. P07 OEM mags, which are Mecgar seem fine.

The 229 seems to combine the reliability of the HK with shoot ability of the CZ.

[Wheeler]

I'm curious about the issues with certain pistols. Is it the norm to ditch the gun and pick up something completely different or diagnose the issues with the gun and fix the mechanical problems?

[GJM]

I'm curious about the issues with certain pistols. Is it the norm to ditch the gun and pick up something completely different or diagnose the issues with the gun and fix the mechanical problems?

Yes

[Hauptmann]

I used a P-01 back when they first came out. It worked okay for about the first 500rds, and then it developed trigger slap problems(actually painful), it broke a take down pin, and it developed feeding and extraction problems. Went to classic Sigs and haven't had any problems with the 9mm and .40 guns.

[Wheeler]

Yes

Interesting.

Sounds expensive, especially once ancillary equipment is purchased.

[JodyH]

H&K USP9C V7 LEM has a better trigger than the P2000 V2 LEM (slightly less takeup and a shorter reset).
It's biggest negatives are a proprietary rail, somewhat blocky grip and even fewer sight and holster options than the P2000.

DA/SA I'd go Beretta 92 compact or Sig P229 with a SRT.
H&K's DA/SA triggers are dog shit.

[psalms144.1]

The 229 seems to combine the reliability of the HK with shoot ability of the CZ.And the weight/thickness of a brick...

Seriously, though, the P229s I've had reason to handle recently had HORRIBLE, gritty, hitchy, nasty DA triggers. The SRT SA is nice, but the recent DA has been poop on a stick, IMHO.

[JodyH]

I'm curious about the issues with certain pistols. Is it the norm to ditch the gun and pick up something completely different or diagnose the issues with the gun and fix the mechanical problems?
I wouldn't know.
I shoot H&K's so I've never experienced any "issues".
:rolleyes::p:cool:

[JodyH]

And the weight/thickness of a brick...

Seriously, though, the P229s I've had reason to handle recently had HORRIBLE, gritty, hitchy, nasty DA triggers. The SRT SA is nice, but the recent DA has been poop on a stick, IMHO.
My M11A1 had a really nice trigger out of the box.

[psalms144.1]

My M11A1 had a really nice trigger out of the box.That's good to hear. I keep hoping Sig turns around its manufacturing and starts producing the quality of pistols they did when I fell in love with them back in the late 80s, early 90s.

[JodyH]

That's good to hear. I keep hoping Sig turns around its manufacturing and starts producing the quality of pistols they did when I fell in love with them back in the late 80s, early 90s.
Sig's biggest issue is a lack of consistency.
They're too busy perfecting the new rainbow finish to worry about little things like poor quality MIM extractors.

[okie john]

Interesting.

Sounds expensive, especially once ancillary equipment is purchased.

It is. But people here aren't concerned about that. Most of the time, we're looking for any reason to try something different.


Okie John

[HCM]

Dark - it's hard to give advice without knowing your background, and how much training (quality training from a competent firearms instructor) you have. I will say, as an LE FI for the last couple of decades, I can't count (and don't want to think about) the number of times I've stopped shooters from holstering a cocked-hammer DA/SA pistol; and we carried Sig P228s or other traditional DA/SA Sigs EXCLUSIVELY for the better part of 15 years. As a result, I'm not really a fan of DA/SA - people who think the 10-12# DA trigger pull is "safer" from NDs have never seen reflexive fire occur. But, if you're comfortable and competent with the DA/SA transition, and have ingrained into muscle memory through several thousand repetitions the motion of hitting a decocking lever/button (I still swipe my strong hand thumb down the grip of my issued P229R DAK at the end of every string in our course of fire - I can't stop myself), then more power to you.

On specific pistols, I'm a BIG fan of the P2000, I think it's the "pick of the litter" in the HK lineup, personally. Unfortunately, it's hampered with one of the crappiest iterations of HK's DA/SA, and the LEM reset is about as long as any they market. Also, it has HK's very "unique" rear-of-the-frame mounted decocking button - again, if you train to use it, it should be an exclusive thing - because it's placed and works differently than any other decocker I know of.

The P2000sk, for me, doesn't serve a purpose, except for ankle carry. Frankly, when I need to REALLY conceal a firearm (undercover, or in formalish attire - weddings, funerals, etc), I'll take a single stack 9mm over any double-stack - there's that much of a difference in concealment. The sk's short grip is also not maximized for efficient and effective shooting, IMHO.

WRT the LEM itself, while I don't prefer it over striker fired systems, it's not THAT hard to "master," as long as you understand it's purpose. As Nyeti has eloquently pointed out repeatedly, the LEM isn't designed to be a speed-shooting trigger, it's designed to be a DELIBERATE shooting trigger. It needs to be run smoothly and with consistency, not "hammered" like a Glock trigger. I have several shooters on my "squad" who routinely shoot high 290s or "clean" our qual (300/300) using my 9mm P2000 with "TLG" LEM, and they probably shoot 200 rounds A YEAR, or less, in total. But, they're also not trying to keep up with my shooting pace using my G19.

So, at the end of a long ramble, my suggestions would be (a) if you shoot the P01 well and like it, carry your P2Ksk while it goes off to a competent smith for an evaluation (Cajun Gunworks or CZ USA would be my suggestions). If you're totally "over" the P01 (and it happens, I'm not judging, really), then I'd suggest the P2000 over the sk version, in 9mm, with the trigger of your choice. If you want a DA/SA and are willing to train it to be competent, then go for it; the LEM really isn't for everyone.

Hope this helps!

Re:the LEM - I carried an HK USPC LEM as both my on and off duty gun for 8 years. Psalms is spot on regarding the difference in how to run the LEM trigger vs a. Glock trigger. You need to run the LEM like a DA revolver trigger. In fact a DA revolver would be a great training tool to help you learn the LEM.

If you like the CZ you might want to take a look at the CZ P -07 rather than the P-01. Glock 19ish size and weight and they seem to run better / more reliably than the metal frame CZs.

[GJM]

If you like the CZ you might want to take a look at the CZ P -07 rather than the P-01. Glock 19ish size and weight and they seem to run better / more reliably than the SMALL metal frame CZs.

FIFY

[1slow]

I went from GL17 to HK P30 LE 9mm. My 25 yard HK P30 groups were better from the beginning. 7 yard work, failure drills etc... took me 3000-4000 rounds to get to the same speed and accuracy as with the GL17. Bear in mind I carried GL21,30,19,17 for a total of 23 years.

I have HK45 LEM and Variation 1, HK USP 45 variation 1 and HK P30, P30L, P2000SK all in 9mm LEM. All are very accurate.
I have big bony hands and the USP 45 fits me well even though the others feel more ergonomic. I can tell no performance difference in shooting.

Having grown up on S&W revolvers and Colt 1911s, my bias is toward cocked and locked or LEM.

[Danjojo]

CZ P-07 would be my vote - 07/09 are better designed for long-term durability and reliability with less frequent tuning and maintenance. Heavier slides lacking lengthy aluminum/steel to steel contact areas and the lock-up style make a big difference in that area. The metal frame CZ's are serviceable with more care and prudence. The light slides and contact/lock-up design mean proper spring tension and gunk removal is even more paramount to run long-term, problem free.

HK USP got it right early there, HK engineers + starting off polymer :) These polymer CZ's give up nothing to the others mentioned IMO.

Curious how much is still stock on the P-01?

[darkparadox]

Thank you for the insight and suggestions thus far.

And answering a few questions:

- No formal training. I do own a shot timer and track my progress through various drills. I consistently perform best with the P01 across the board, with a slight advantage towards the Glock when it comes to off hand shooting. Substantially worse with the P2000sk. The one advantage is reloads after faster and smoother, I have small hands with requires me to shift my grip slightly when hitting a traditional magazine release.

- Using factory OEM 10 round magazines (New York). Perhaps a contributing factor ?

- The Cz P01 has a CGW SRS-1 Short Reset system, and a stainless guide rod.

- Not that I'm looking to try something different, would rather master one pistol... but confidence plays a huge role in wanting to carrying something. Any pistol can have issues, but the reality is not many high round count P01s out there to reference. And having issues with mine with a relatively low round count makes me hesitant. My P2000sk was purchased used, and likely has had 6-8k rounds through it... not a hiccup. While the ergonomics and my ability to shoot the P01 is unparalleled... reliability is the most important factor. So perhaps I could have it sent out and had it "fixed", but should that really be necessary ? I acknowledge that any company can produce lemons, but some designs are certainly stronger.

Shooting slow and aiming for accuracy I do not see any big issues with the LEM, but introducing any type of speed / stress and everything goes to shit. Just not sure how to diagnose if this is an LEM issue or H&K p2000sk issue. Wish we had some rental ranges in my area, where I could try out the DA/SA equivalent.

I think that is a great call out on decocking.

[HCM]

The 10 round mags may be a factor. They are a known issue in Glocks. The HK, SIG and Beretta 10 round mags seem the most reliable.

[darkparadox]

Yeah, I have owned 15 Glock 19 ten round magazines, of those fifteen three did not work correctly. Tested across 4 different Glock 19s, by two shooters. Could never find a reliable fix, or reason for it.

[GJM]

Yes, the ten round magazines are certainly relevant.

Considering where you live, you might also consider a Sig 239, which shoots like a larger pistol, while carrying well AIWB, and having the benefit of standard capacity, NY legal magazines.

[darkparadox]

Any advice on potential trouble shooting for the magazines? Willing to try anything.

[GJM]

Any advice on potential trouble shooting for the magazines? Willing to try anything.

Can't remember whether you answered this, but did you replace the mag springs, which I found weak in the standard capacity P01 mags, with Wolff?

[darkparadox]

I did not no. May have missed that entirely.

[OnionsAndDragons]

Yes, the ten round magazines are certainly relevant.

Considering where you live, you might also consider a Sig 239, which shoots like a larger pistol, while carrying well AIWB, and having the benefit of standard capacity, NY legal magazines.

So much P239.

I've shot one a handful of times, need one like another hole, likely wouldn't carry it; but still want one.

If I lived in a cap restricted place, this gun would be right at the top for me. It shoots sooooo well for the size. And I've heard around the cooler here, from the SIG lovers, that it tends to have an especially good trigger. My experience is too limited to make that call, but the two I've worked with were every bit as good as my well worked in 226s.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[darkparadox]

Was considering the Cz-p07 for awhile. Picked the P01 over it initially due to the reported frame issues in the first generation models. Will give new magazine springs a try, and if that fails I'm done with CZ for defensive carry. Premature or not.

I have handled the and shot the Sig p239, was underwhelmed. Although, I did shoot it better than the LEM. Have a strong preference towards a polymer pistol regardless.

After reading that you can convert the Beretta px4 to a decocker only I decided to handle the compact and subcompact at a gunshop. Have to say, I really liked them both. Felt better in the hand than the H&Ks, and the trigger pull was superior to the DA/SA H&Ks I have handled. The subcompact is large enough that I can get a full grip on it. And the compact is only slightly bigger than the Glock 19. One of these two may be a strong contender for a new EDC

Still curious if anyone else has transitioned from LEM back to DA/SA in the same platform and had superior results.

[GJM]

Still curious if anyone else has transitioned from LEM back to DA/SA in the same platform and had superior results.

Of course. You might be interested in knowing that the HK shooting team shot DA/SA HK pistols in competition, despite a PF member who was on the HK team, carrying a LEM for duty. You can bet they would have shot LEM triggers in competition if the LEM was easier to shoot gun games with.

Darryl and I had this exact conversation just last week. The LEM was sold as a superior shooting trigger system, when it would have been better described as a terrific all around trigger system. If I wanted to give someone a reliable, safe pistol, that takes a minimum of knowledge to operate, the LEM is at the top of the list. Perfect for new shooters, perfect for LE. The LEM simplifies gun handling, and makes the first shot easier than the heavy HK DA trigger. However, the trade off is, that while the first shot is easier with LEM, the follow-up shots require more effort than shooting a shorter travel SA trigger. That doesn't mean the LEM can't be shot well, and there are surely some folks on PF that shoot them at a very high level. However, for a given amount of effort, other trigger systems are likely to yield better results for most shooters compared to the LEM. That is the reason that you don't see a lot of LEM triggers at gun games. Only you can decide whether the administrative advantages of LEM and the lighter first press offset the advantages of a SA trigger for successive shots.

[ubervic]

Of course. You might be interested in knowing that the HK shooting team shot DA/SA HK pistols in competition, despite a PF member who was on the HK team, carrying a LEM for duty. You can bet they would have shot LEM triggers in competition if the LEM was easier to shoot gun games with.

Darryl and I had this exact conversation just last week. The LEM was sold as a superior shooting trigger system, when it would have been better described as a terrific all around trigger system. If I wanted to give someone a reliable, safe pistol, that takes a minimum of knowledge to operate, the LEM is at the top of the list. Perfect for new shooters, perfect for LE. The LEM simplifies gun handling, and makes the first shot easier than the heavy HK DA trigger. However, the trade off is, that while the first shot is easier with LEM, the follow-up shots require more effort than shooting a shorter travel SA trigger. That doesn't mean the LEM can't be shot well, and there are surely some folks on PF that shoot them at a very high level. However, for a given amount of effort, other trigger systems are likely to yield better results for most shooters compared to the LEM. That is the reason that you don't see a lot of LEM triggers at gun games. Only you can decide whether the administrative advantages of LEM and the lighter first press offset the advantages of a SA trigger for successive shots.

It is this kind of thoughtful, knowledgeable, informed response that makes P-F.com the preeminent online handgun information resource.

[Dagga Boy]

Agree with all of the above GJM, except for one thing. I don't think HK ever pushed the LEM as a superior shooting trigger, I think the pushed it as a superior trigger for issue to LE....and I now agree with that. The problem was that some folks were able to do a good job shooting it well, and then it was pushed as superior because some people could shoot it really well. I have found they shoot well for me in any drill that is control based and par time based rather than pushed to max speed or drills and tests requiring a maximum speed push. Most know I like it as a people management trigger, and one I feel very in tune with...which does not mean I can shoot it as fast as other things, but it generally only goes bang when I really want it to.

[Sam]

Of course. You might be interested in knowing that the HK shooting team shot DA/SA HK pistols in competition, despite a PF member who was on the HK team, carrying a LEM for duty. You can bet they would have shot LEM triggers in competition if the LEM was easier to shoot gun games with.

Darryl and I had this exact conversation just last week. The LEM was sold as a superior shooting trigger system, when it would have been better described as a terrific all around trigger system. If I wanted to give someone a reliable, safe pistol, that takes a minimum of knowledge to operate, the LEM is at the top of the list. Perfect for new shooters, perfect for LE. The LEM simplifies gun handling, and makes the first shot easier than the heavy HK DA trigger. However, the trade off is, that while the first shot is easier with LEM, the follow-up shots require more effort than shooting a shorter travel SA trigger. That doesn't mean the LEM can't be shot well, and there are surely some folks on PF that shoot them at a very high level. However, for a given amount of effort, other trigger systems are likely to yield better results for most shooters compared to the LEM. That is the reason that you don't see a lot of LEM triggers at gun games. Only you can decide whether the administrative advantages of LEM and the lighter first press offset the advantages of a SA trigger for successive shots.

Does the safety on the P30 work acceptably well?

[GJM]

Does the safety on the P30 work acceptably well?

I only have one P30 with a thumb safety, and I don't use it. I also converted my pair of USP .45's to variant 3, decocker only.

[psalms144.1]

Does the safety on the P30 work acceptably well?As with everything firearms related, this is a personal opinion thing. If you mean "does it operate well as a safety mechanism?" then heck yes, in spades. What I've always loved about HK safeties is the ability to manipulate the firearm (load, unload, etc) with the safety engaged - since most of the NDs I've ever seen or heard of came from loading/unloading pistols, this just seems like a piece of awesome sauce to me.

Unfortunately, for me, the PLACEMENT of the safety on the P30 leaves something to be desired, and I can't naturally "ride it" like I would a 1911 safety. It feels awkward, and feels like it compromises my grip. Again, that might be just me...

[GJM]

As with everything firearms related, this is a personal opinion thing. If you mean "does it operate well as a safety mechanism?" then heck yes, in spades. What I've always loved about HK safeties is the ability to manipulate the firearm (load, unload, etc) with the safety engaged - since most of the NDs I've ever seen or heard of came from loading/unloading pistols, this just seems like a piece of awesome sauce to me.

Unfortunately, for me, the PLACEMENT of the safety on the P30 leaves something to be desired, and I can't naturally "ride it" like I would a 1911 safety. It feels awkward, and feels like it compromises my grip. Again, that might be just me...

Lots of words to say "it blows."

[okie john]

Does the safety on the P30 work acceptably well?

Mine was awkward. Your results may vary.


Okie John

[YVK]

Of course. You might be interested in knowing that the HK shooting team shot DA/SA HK pistols in competition, despite a PF member who was on the HK team, carrying a LEM for duty.....

Interestingly, it was a striker HK that he made a GM with.

As far as the rest of your post, I now have to shoot my LEM during that match in February. That brings a perfect opportunity for a challenge. There's 20% point difference between you and I now (I am guessing). I shoot the match within 15% of you - you shoot LEM only for 6 months, you can have my GGI 30L. How about that?

[L-2]

I really don't like choosing a different pistol as a cure to other deficiencies. I've become familiar with a few platforms (admittedly, I've zero experience with HK and CZ). Unless it's merely a different model of the same brand/type (Glock, SIG, 1911, revolver), it can easily take me ~1,000 rounds (that would be ~3 days for me) to feel comfortable & competent carrying the new gun, along with holster(s). I'm just throwing that info out there as it could take another 4 months at the OP's rate before being ready to deploy as a carry gun.

My concerns with this thread are, not in any specific order:
-handgun hardware
-training
-appendix carry

Handgun. I understand losing confidence in a particular gun, for even the entire make & model. If that's true, don't bother looking into a fix for the CZ; move on. Getting a new handgun will likely require some amount of "learning curve". How long and how many rounds will vary with each person.

Training. Each person may require more or less training. Whether 250 rounds or less per month is adequate depends on the shooter. From what I gather the OP admits training/shooting time is limited and may be not enough. Now, it's choosing a firearm to cure a limited amount of training and expertise of the owner.

Appendix Carry. This may add a bit of concern and is another personal choice not mandated by anything as far as I can tell. Another related personal choice is it seems to be ruling out striker-fired guns. That's ok. I'm not the one limiting my options due to other rigid, non-changeable choices I've made.

Given the appendix carry, lack of training, and safety, a double-action only (DA, DAK, LEM) or DA revolver make sense to me.

Consider a different mode of carry, perhaps IWB carry at ~4 o'clock; training and more training time; and make a decision with a handgun known for reliability and popularly/often selected.

It seems with so many good firearms out there, making a choice becomes difficult. Unless one has a lot of time & money, it may make some sense to choose one make & model and stay with it. Later, with more time & money, buy some other handgun and "run it in parallel", keeping the old gun while training & practicing with the new gun with the possibility of it becoming a carry gun either to replace the first carry gun or be an alternate. Some folks will even get multiples of the same gun should one be down for repairs or other reasons.

[taadski]

I'm interested in some more details on the CZ and some of your malfunctions if you don't mind. Reason I'm asking is that I think the compact CZs are awesome little pistols that very much suit the genre you're looking for. Considering you already own it, it seems that looking at as many solutions as possible might be wise. That and I've seen a lot of tinkered with CZs have lots of trouble. I've not seen many that were left in some semblance of stock form have many issues. Not saying they can't, just that I've not seen them.

You noted that you've had the Cajun short reset kit installed. You also mentioned that you had the DA "lightened up slightly", that you're running 10 round mags and have an aftermarket guide rod. Some questions:

-Was there action work done to the gun when the reset kit was installed or was the "DA lightening" just done via a lighter main spring?
-Is the recoil spring stock weight?
-What ammunition are you shooting? Reloads? In particular lighter ones?
-Have you tried "plunk testing" the ammunition you're shooting to establish you're not having a tight/short chamber issue? (CZs often have really short chambers and longer OAL rounds can cause problems that can exacerbate feeding and extraction).

You mention your malfunctions are double feeds and failures to extract. Both of these often indicate some issue with the extractor itself. I'd look closely and see if there's any sign of any damage. Any gunk buildup there? Ensure it's as clean "behind the hook" as possible. If there's nothin' showing there, I'd probably order a Wolf extra-power extractor spring. They're cheap and this solution is alleged to have remedied many a CZ FTE problem. Another thing to look at is the recoil spring. The CZs, especially when new, are pretty heavily sprung. They like hot ammo and if you're feeding them lighter recoiling loads, especially on a stock spring, sometimes the slide does not travel rearward enough to hit the ejector fully -----> your double feed. This can be made worse by a looser than ideal grip on the pistol also, incidentally.

Anyway, those are some things I'd look at based on what you're describing. If they don't remedy the issues, I'd send the gun back to CZUSA and let the Company back their product. Reports are that they have excellent customer service.

The compact CZ mags, especially the 10 rounders, seem to be the cause of some issues. The extra power mag springs suggestion certainly can't hurt, but I'd lean more toward the extraction oriented stuff for a solution, given the types of problems you're describing.

Anyway, my recommendation would be to give fixing the CZ a shot!

Good luck,




t

[taadski]

Interestingly, it was a striker HK that he made a GM with.

As far as the rest of your post, I now have to shoot my LEM during that match in February. That brings a perfect opportunity for a challenge. There's 20% point difference between you and I now (I am guessing). I shoot the match within 15% of you - you shoot LEM only for 6 months, you can have my GGI 30L. How about that?

Yes! Dooooo it! :cool:

[GJM]

Yes! Dooooo it! :cool:

I think YVK needs to immediately go to the nearest ER, and tell them he has an acute case of HK-itis.*

* defined as an irrational desire to make an LEM trigger into something it was never intended to be and never will be. Those with this affliction frequently attempt to infect others with the same illness.

[LSP552]

I think YVK needs to immediately go to the nearest ER, and tell them he has an acute case of HK-itis.*

* defined as an irrational desire to make an LEM trigger into something it was never intended to be and never will be. Those with this affliction frequently attempt to infect others with the same illness.

And take LSP972 with him....:D

[YVK]

Yes! Dooooo it! :cool:

I would but he wouldn't. See, he is trying to get me institutionalized for that




* defined as an irrational desire to make an LEM trigger into something it was never intended to be and never will be.

Oh, come on, what's rational and what was intended? JMB never intended a 2011. Inventors of arguably world's most adopted service pistol, CZ75, never intended 6.5/2.5 lbs (according to AA site) pull behind an extended firing pin.

I am pushing an envelope here, blending a timmy and a gamey like never done before. $365 trigger jobs to make a noncompetitive gun remain noncompetitive but at a higher level. Wait until my 4.1 parts make it here, there will be no stopping me, trash talking and otherwise. Come on, support your bro in his fight for justice for LEM. Take the challenge, George, take the challenge.

[JHC]

$365 trigger jobs to make a noncompetitive gun remain noncompetitive but at a higher level.

Pegging the awesome meter

[taadski]

Come on, support your bro in his fight for justice for LEM. Take the challenge, George, take the challenge.



As you know, GJM is a superhero of sorts. 1/2 high end business mogul, half wooly Alaskan outdoorsman, able to swoon board members and change market trends in one breath and harvest moose, face shoot charging Grizzlies and perform miraculous feats of elite aviation skill in the next. All in time to be back home and cater to the needs of his lovely wife for the evening. He's truly a man among men!

However I surmise the prospect of THIS challenge might just be a bit too daunting and likely strikes fear into his very heart! Alas, YVK, I'm not sure he has what it takes. With heavy heart, I'll say I suspect you may have to continue to go at it alone....

















:D

[Sal Picante]

I carried a CZ P01 when I shot the Shadows.

The gun is ok as a template, but needed several parts swapped to ensure reliability:


GJM already mentioned magazine springs - the OEM mag is ~ok. Wolf spring helps.
Stock Extractor spring is garbage - swap with a wolf extractor spring. May need a 1/4-1/2 coil clipped.
Keep the extractor slot cleaned - if you're not cleaning that or hosing it out with Hornady cleaner/lube, you're setting up for failure.
Stock FP block pin (roll pin) - wears heavily. Total garbage. Replace with a Cajun solid pin.
CZ's a OAL sensitive since the leade is short - I ran JHP very short (1.065"-1.075") to maximize reliability. Some SD ammo just didn't chamber reliably. Federal HST seemed ok, you have to experiment.

[JHC]

I carried a CZ P01 when I shot the Shadows.

The gun is ok as a template, but needed several parts swapped to ensure reliability:


GJM already mentioned magazine springs - the OEM mag is ~ok. Wolf spring helps.
Stock Extractor spring is garbage - swap with a wolf extractor spring. May need a 1/4-1/2 coil clipped.
Keep the extractor slot cleaned - if you're not cleaning that or hosing it out with Hornady cleaner/lube, you're setting up for failure.
Stock FP block pin (roll pin) - wears heavily. Total garbage. Replace with a Cajun solid pin.
CZ's a OAL sensitive since the leade is short - I ran JHP very short (1.065"-1.075") to maximize reliability. Some SD ammo just didn't chamber reliably. Federal HST seemed ok, you have to experiment.


That's a helluva list.

[Sal Picante]

That's a helluva list.

Guess what I carry now... Hint: not the P01.

[Wheeler]

It is. But people here aren't concerned about that. Most of the time, we're looking for any reason to try something different.


Okie John

That's a helluva list.

It's a chopped a shrunk legacy gun. Like most smaller guns based on bigger original designs it's got issues. Think 1911 commander and occifer pistols.

[Mr_White]

Interestingly, it was a striker HK that he made a GM with.

As far as the rest of your post, I now have to shoot my LEM during that match in February. That brings a perfect opportunity for a challenge. There's 20% point difference between you and I now (I am guessing). I shoot the match within 15% of you - you shoot LEM only for 6 months, you can have my GGI 30L. How about that?

While someone was holding your gun while you peed during that hike in GA, I snuck a few trigger pulls on your GGI LEM gun. I really wished we had like a whole extra week at Rogers to fool around with different guns. I would have liked to try the Rogers Test with your gun. And you know I am on the side of obstinate Timmies. I think it has potential, you should go for it.

[taadski]

While someone was holding your gun while you peed during that hike in GA, I snuck a few trigger pulls on your GGI LEM gun. I really wished we had like a whole extra week at Rogers to fool around with different guns. I would have liked to try the Rogers Test with your gun. And you know I am on the side of obstinate Timmies. I think it has potential, you should go for it.



Aaaaah, the romance. You two were back there for while.... :cool:

[Mr_White]

Aaaaah, the romance. You two were back there for while.... :cool:

Hey, I wasn't the one 'holding the gun'...

[Sal Picante]

It's a chopped a shrunk legacy gun. Like most smaller guns based on bigger original designs it's got issues. Think 1911 commander and occifer pistols.

It isn't as bad as the rep. commander 1911's have... I did carry thing with confidence for a while and really think the P01 can run well with minimal upgrades.
The CZ spring replacements are cheap enough - the trouble is knowing enough about the design to fit parts with confidence.
(Snark aside, I needed something smaller, hence the Kahr PM9, which required a touch of debugging too.)

CZ should probably put better components in from the get go, but, that said, the entire CZ75 design is dated: Stupid TRS, small sear and soft hammer, slide stop is a wear part, etc. Sphinx makes a better clone based on the "sear cage" models, but even CZ has moved to the more robust omega trigger system...

[YVK]

While someone was holding your gun while you peed during that hike in GA, I snuck a few trigger pulls on your GGI LEM gun. I really wished we had like a whole extra week at Rogers to fool around with different guns. I would have liked to try the Rogers Test with your gun. And you know I am on the side of obstinate Timmies. I think it has potential, you should go for it.

The glorious intoxication from those vodka cocktails has clouded your memory, my friend. You tried the HK at the hotel. The now-classic line of hold my gun while I pee involved a Beretta. Which gets me to another point of polymer gun advantage. They are light and nimble and you can keep them holstered while urinating. Impossible to do so with all metal guns, especially all steel ones.

If someone would arrange a run of "Obstinate Timmy" t-shirts, I would wear them proudly.

Sincere apologies to OP for taking this thread down the drain.

[GJM]

Pepperoni highlights the conundrum of the Timmie/gamer.

Your Timmie instincts want you to carry a smaller facsimile of your game gun. However, in the case of small CZ and 1911 models, for example, the smaller guns might not have durability and reliability your Timmie instincts demand.

I have resolved this, currently, by gaming a CZ and carrying a 229. Both are category leaders, respectively, in the gamer and Timmie categories.

[SteveB]

I have a P-01 from CZ Custom; a very fine alloy pistol, got a 1.25" 5-shot group at 25 yds with 147 grain American Eagle. Mags are a weak link with this pistol, though, especially the 10-rounders. I've had no issue with a pair of P-07's; almost as accurate but better mags. These went through CZ Custom as well with big improvements in the triggers. These days, I mostly carry a P2000 V3 9mm; bombproof mags, easy to shoot well, carries really small. The LEM does nothing for me, but the out-of-the-box DA on my P2000's needed help. Fortunately, the 2-spring trigger job is pretty easy: replace the hammer spring with a Wolff 10 or 12 lb spring and the sear spring with the nickel-plated sear spring from HK parts:

http://www.hkparts.net/shop/pc/Enhanced-Match-Flat-Sear-Spring-Nickel-Plated-p1811.htm

I use the 10 lb hammer spring and have had no ignition failures through several thousand rounds in two pistols. The P2000 with flat mag baseplate is my idea of a nearly perfect AIWB pistol; I use a P30 mag for the reload.

[Dagga Boy]

As you know, GJM is a superhero of sorts. 1/2 high end business mogul, half wooly Alaskan outdoorsman, able to swoon board members and change market trends in one breath and harvest moose, face shoot charging Grizzlies and perform miraculous feats of elite aviation skill in the next. All in time to be back home and cater to the needs of his lovely wife for the evening. He's truly a man among men!

However I surmise the prospect of THIS challenge might just be a bit too daunting and likely strikes fear into his very heart! Alas, YVK, I'm not sure he has what it takes. With heavy heart, I'll say I suspect you may have to continue to go at it alone...


:D





This is not true if you know GJM. He doesn't go home to attend to the needs of his lovely wife. She is with him during the entire process. I was leaving his house with a friend and GJM hollers to his wife "you want to go to the range", and she yells "yea, I ll be right there". My buddy just looks at me and goes "wow, all this and the perfect woman". GJM's wife is more like a co-conspirator.


LEM. I will likely be a lifetime LEM owner. My primary home guns are all LEM's. Here is the reality for me that is totally different than a majority here. I "like to shoot", but have not been a "shooter" since about 1995. About that time I became far more interested as a hunter of predators with the intention of capture rather than kill. The "shooting part" is really at the lower end of priorities for me. My daily carry guns are "force tools". For many they are "shooting things". I am more interested in solving force problems as an interest professionally than solving shooting problems on a range or in competition. This is why I think the LEM is wonderful. It is like the "gamer gun" for use of force, not for shooting. If my motivation was simply to shoot really good.....GJM's CZ made an impression on me as disturbingly easy to hit things. And likely not the first choice of a gun I want to solve a force problem from start to finish with.

[Mr_White]

The glorious intoxication from those vodka cocktails has clouded your memory, my friend. You tried the HK at the hotel. The now-classic line of hold my gun while I pee involved a Beretta.

I know, I just thought it made a better and more efficient story the way I told it. If I related it exactly correctly, Les probably would have had to post that 'You use so many words' meme again. :)

[GJM]

I know, I just thought it made a better and more efficient story the way I told it. If I related it exactly correctly, Les probably would have had to post that 'You use so many words' meme again. :)

Sometimes a picture is better than many words.

http://i250.photobucket.com/albums/gg251/GJMandes/imagejpg1_zps41ed74e3.jpg (http://s250.photobucket.com/user/GJMandes/media/imagejpg1_zps41ed74e3.jpg.html)

[taadski]

LOL. Hey….I was saving that for a special occasion!

The photo, not the booze. :D

[ffhounddog]

I keep saying to myself why did I ever sell my backup P30 for a VP9. While I like the VP9 the P30 was the best shooter I had followed by my Glock 19. The VP9 is good but if I had to have only two guns it would be my P30 and P2000 in LEM. Partly because it makes me happy to run a LEM gun well.

[SteveB]

GJM's wife is more like a co-conspirator.

More like co-pilot. Also:

Many years ago, GJM, his wife and I were at their cabin on maybe 500 acres in the Adirondacks. While poking around the woods, we came across an unknown pickup parked on his property, tucked into the woods, near the cabin. This was mildly worrisome; no reason for anyone to be there. We decided to split up; GJM circled around to approach the cabin from the rear, Charlie and I worked our way in from the front. I had a Model 94, she had a G23, IIRC. We sat in the woods and watched the house for a bit; figured we'd have to go in sooner or later. Cabin was an open floor plan with a loft, couple bedrooms, kitchen/great room, bath. So we cleared it and I was very happy to have her there; pretty cool to be married to someone you wouldn't have to worry about in a fight.

[taadski]

This is not true if you know GJM. He doesn't go home to attend to the needs of his lovely wife. She is with him during the entire process. I was leaving his house with a friend and GJM hollers to his wife "you want to go to the range", and she yells "yea, I ll be right there". My buddy just looks at me and goes "wow, all this and the perfect woman". GJM's wife is more like a co-conspirator.


Yeah, yeah, yeah. I've spent plenty of time with G and C. But that angle didn't paint my "Most interesting man in the world" schema nearly as well. :p

[Luke]

GJM's wife is more like a co-conspirator.

More like co-pilot. Also:

Many years ago, GJM, his wife and I were at their cabin on maybe 500 acres in the Adirondacks. While poking around the woods, we came across an unknown pickup parked on his property, tucked into the woods, near the cabin. This was mildly worrisome; no reason for anyone to be there. We decided to split up; GJM circled around to approach the cabin from the rear, Charlie and I worked our way in from the front. I had a Model 94, she had a G23, IIRC. We sat in the woods and watched the house for a bit; figured we'd have to go in sooner or later. Cabin was an open floor plan with a loft, couple bedrooms, kitchen/great room, bath. So we cleared it and I was very happy to have her there; pretty cool to be married to someone you wouldn't have to worry about in a fight.



Well....? What's the rest of the story!?



And is the P30 sear spring really worth it? Mine is fairly smooth on the actually spring and the hammer has a nice smooth wear pattern too. I just ordered roll pins from there.. Wish I new about the gamer spring!

[Sal Picante]

Which gets me to another point of polymer gun advantage. They are light and nimble and you can keep them holstered while urinating. Impossible to do so with all metal guns, especially all steel ones.

:confused:

... Squatting... ?

[Sal Picante]

Pepperoni highlights the conundrum of the Timmie/gamer.

Your Timmie instincts want you to carry a smaller facsimile of your game gun.

I have resolved this, currently, by gaming a XXX and carrying a XXX.

Yup - I've evolved to carrying different guns these days too.

[Mr_White]

Sometimes a picture is better than many words.

That was a good week. ;)

[YVK]

Your Timmie instincts want you to carry a smaller facsimile of your game gun. However, in the case of small CZ and 1911 models, for example, the smaller guns might not have durability and reliability your Timmie instincts demand.

I have resolved this, currently, by gaming a CZ and carrying a 229.

That gets you killed in the streets.

Seriously though, most people will drop performance points when switching that way. I have to hold my goddamn game gun differently than my goddamn carry gun. Hold differently, let alone trigger manipulation, recoil, sight tracking, reloads. I proved to myself, at Rogers and at the most recent state match, that I can't really switch fast. Then you're basically relying on your default performance level with a timmy gun being good enough.


So, are taking the challenge?

[SteveB]

Well....? What's the rest of the story!?

The rest of the story is that his wife gave him the all-clear, GJM came out of the weeds and we had beers.




And is the P30 sear spring really worth it? Mine is fairly smooth on the actually spring and the hammer has a nice smooth wear pattern too. I just ordered roll pins from there.. Wish I new about the gamer spring!

Might be that the nickel sear spring is a shortcut; like a stock spring that has a lot of rounds on it.

[GJM]

That gets you killed in the streets.

Seriously though, most people will drop performance points when switching that way. I have to hold my goddamn game gun differently than my goddamn carry gun. Hold differently, let alone trigger manipulation, recoil, sight tracking, reloads. I proved to myself, at Rogers and at the most recent state match, that I can't really switch fast. Then you're basically relying on your default performance level with a timmy gun being good enough.


So, are taking the challenge?

For so many reasons, this challenge seems like one of the dumbest things I have ever heard of.

Right now, progressing in USPSA is at the top of my list. Over the last 45 days of shooting matches, dry fire and near daily live fire, by focusing on the CZ almost exclusively, I have made the fastest jump in USPSA match performance ever in my shooting career. While I love guns, I have ZERO interest in shooting other stuff now, and view other handguns as just a distraction. As you know, in the last few weeks, I just received two beautiful Ed Cameron 2011 Limited guns, and I haven't shot more than a magazine through them. They just don't interest me at all. I handled and shot a few rounds through a Tangfoglio at the match Sunday, and unlike past times, could care less. I still do some dry fire and very limited shooting through my carry P229, but even that is getting less time. The few hours messing around with Darryl, has been the most non-CZ time I have spent in a while.

Each person should choose what is the right program for them at that time. Right now for me, if it isn't a CZ Shadow, it is a waste of my time.

[Sal Picante]

While I love guns, I have ZERO interest in shooting other stuff now, and view other handguns as just a distraction.
...
Each person should choose what is the right program for them at that time. Right now for me, if it isn't a CZ Shadow, it is a waste of my time.

Holy shitsnacks: Look at you!

[Sigfan26]

For so many reasons, this challenge seems like one of the dumbest things I have ever heard of.

Right now, progressing in USPSA is at the top of my list. Over the last 45 days of shooting matches, dry fire and near daily live fire, by focusing on the CZ almost exclusively, I have made the fastest jump in USPSA match performance ever in my shooting career. While I love guns, I have ZERO interest in shooting other stuff now, and view other handguns as just a distraction. As you know, in the last few weeks, I just received two beautiful Ed Cameron 2011 Limited guns, and I haven't shot more than a magazine through them. They just don't interest me at all. I handled and shot a few rounds through a Tangfoglio at the match Sunday, and unlike past times, could care less. I still do some dry fire and very limited shooting through my carry P229, but even that is getting less time. The few hours messing around with Darryl, has been the most non-CZ time I have spent in a while.

Each person should choose what is the right program for them at that time. Right now for me, if it isn't a CZ Shadow, it is a waste of my time.

I mean this seriously:
Then carry a shadow! Not a 229! Why would you do otherwise?

[GJM]

I mean this seriously:
Then carry a shadow! Not a 229! Why would you do otherwise?

For the same reason I carry a USP in the summer -- I value reliability over shoot ability in a carry gun. A no firing pin block safety, heavy gun with a very light trigger, and without a decocker doesn't cut it for me as a carry gun.

[Sigfan26]

For the same reason I carry a USP in the summer -- I value reliability over shoot ability in a carry gun. A no firing pin block safety, heavy gun with a very light trigger, and without a decocker doesn't cut it for me as a carry gun.

My apologies for reading your previous post incorrectly. I thought you meant the Shadow was the be all end all.

[GJM]

The Shadow just happens to be the gun I am shooting in Production with, and focusing my training efforts on.

[Sigfan26]

The Shadow just happens to be the gun I am shooting in Production with, and focusing my training efforts on.

Got it. My whole query then is why don't you carry the gun you shoot best (shoot a shadow in production, carry an SDP)

[HCM]

For so many reasons, this challenge seems like one of the dumbest things I have ever heard of.

Right now, progressing in USPSA is at the top of my list. Over the last 45 days of shooting matches, dry fire and near daily live fire, by focusing on the CZ almost exclusively, I have made the fastest jump in USPSA match performance ever in my shooting career. While I love guns, I have ZERO interest in shooting other stuff now, and view other handguns as just a distraction. As you know, in the last few weeks, I just received two beautiful Ed Cameron 2011 Limited guns, and I haven't shot more than a magazine through them. They just don't interest me at all. I handled and shot a few rounds through a Tangfoglio at the match Sunday, and unlike past times, could care less. I still do some dry fire and very limited shooting through my carry P229, but even that is getting less time. The few hours messing around with Darryl, has been the most non-CZ time I have spent in a while.

Each person should choose what is the right program for them at that time. Right now for me, if it isn't a CZ Shadow, it is a waste of my time.

This is obviously the result of some medical experiment by YVK involving transfusing Mr. White's blood into GJM. Possibly inspired by the ending of Star Trek: Into the Darkness. :rolleyes:

[Dagga Boy]

Watching George run that CZ was a pleasure. He is very at one with it.....not just shooting it, but how he handles it. His passion for it shows in how much time he is obviously spending with it when not on the range. The gun really does make it easy. It is very easy to shoot well. As far as what I am looking for in a carry gun....it's not the one for me. If I was on the path GJM is......I think he nailed it.

We are going out to the range tomorrow. I am going to add something to a drill he came up with that I think will perfect it. I am also bringing my Model 28......he is going high speed, I will be rolling old school retro gunfighter.

[GJM]

This is obviously the result of some medical experiment by YVK involving transfusing Mr. White's blood into GJM. Possibly inspired by the ending of Star Trek: Into the Darkness. :rolleyes:

YVK trolled me and I took the bait. He was trying to pay me back for asking him whether he shot in GrayGun division at IDPA. I think he does have HK-itis though.

[Urban_Redneck]

I give you $375 for the P-01.

[YVK]

I spent in excess of $1500 on mine. Yours for $800 plus shipping.


G, it is not HKitis, it is timmitus, can't bring myself to run with purpose-build race guns. Spent too much time in one room with Gabe. Not enough talent to switch well between game and carry choices. Worried about Grayguns future. Pissed at Czech for abandoning the old poor Putin. Whathaveyou.


To the OP (I still feel guilty about the derail): I'd go and try DA/SA SK if you can't run LEM to your satisfaction. Based on what I've seen and experienced, I don't consider CZ75 compact derivatives to be worth owning. They are not shootable in stock form and subsequent modifications don't always come out as intended (my experience). It took me that^^^ much money to get mine to where it has properties that my buddy GJM likes in his game guns AND run well enough to carry.

[Urban_Redneck]

I carry a PCR all I've done is the CGW Hammer spring/extended firing pin kit and swap the original sights out for the night sights from my SP 01 Tactical. It's been completely reliable for 1500+ rounds, and is very shootable.

My SP 01 game gun has the same plus the competition hammer and CGW FP block lifter has been trouble free for 4k rounds. Next month I'll strip them down and install new springs and solid pins.

I will say the both barrels have shorter leade than typical 9mm service pistols that required shortening up my reloads to 1.117 from 1.30.

YMMV

[Sal Picante]

I will say the both barrels have shorter leade than typical 9mm service pistols that required shortening up my reloads to 1.117 from 1.30.


I might be the biggest gamer, I mean other than GJM, of course, and that, above ^, is the rub. The P01 isn't reliable with any SD ammo. My reloads were find in mine, but I needed to experiment with SD ammo to find one that was stone reliable.

I may just be one dude, but when looking into a SD gun and talking about parts swapping, setup, I start to get willies.

I ran a lot of rounds through the CZ, including the P01, and I'm kinda glad I'm not shooting 'em anymore...

[Mr_White]

I might be the biggest gamer, I mean other than GJM, of course, and that, above ^, is the rub. The P01 isn't reliable with any SD ammo. My reloads were find in mine, but I needed to experiment with SD ammo to find one that was stone reliable.

I may just be one dude, but when looking into a SD gun and talking about parts swapping, setup, I start to get willies.

I ran a lot of rounds through the CZ, including the P01, and I'm kinda glad I'm not shooting 'em anymore...

That sounds more like a Timmy!

[BN]

My carry gun is a CZ P-01. I wanted the hammer gun for perceived safety with AIWB. The de-cocker is in a good place for me. Many other pistols have controls in the wrong place for an old 1911 shooter such as me. :( My P-01 has been reliable so far. I am still using the factory mag springs. I have the plus 10 Wolff springs but haven't installed and tested them yet.

[GJM]

I spent in excess of $1500 on mine. Yours for $800 plus shipping.


G, it is not HKitis, it is timmitus, can't bring myself to run with purpose-build race guns. Spent too much time in one room with Gabe. Not enough talent to switch well between game and carry choices. Worried about Grayguns future. Pissed at Czech for abandoning the old poor Putin. Whathaveyou.


To the OP (I still feel guilty about the derail): I'd go and try DA/SA SK if you can't run LEM to your satisfaction. Based on what I've seen and experienced, I don't consider CZ75 compact derivatives to be worth owning. They are not shootable in stock form and subsequent modifications don't always come out as intended (my experience). It took me that^^^ much money to get mine to where it has properties that my buddy GJM likes in his game guns AND run well enough to carry.

YVK, in fairness, a bunch of that money was spent chasing a Shadow quality trigger in a carry gun, and fixing hammer follow which may have been your thumb. While I didn't shoot my P01 pistols at the volume of Pepperoni, they gave me no trouble (three of them).


I might be the biggest gamer, I mean other than GJM, of course, and that, above ^, is the rub. The P01 isn't reliable with any SD ammo. My reloads were find in mine, but I needed to experiment with SD ammo to find one that was stone reliable.

I may just be one dude, but when looking into a SD gun and talking about parts swapping, setup, I start to get willies.

I ran a lot of rounds through the CZ, including the P01, and I'm kinda glad I'm not shooting 'em anymore...

For a DA/SA carry gun, the safe bets sure would seem to be a 92 Compact, P series or HK.

As alluded to in the timmie conundrum post, I feel no requirement to game and carry the same pistol. No worries if others feel differently.

[cheby]

It is timmitus, can't bring myself to run with purpose-build race guns. Spent too much time in one room with Gabe.

Oh man, it is so true! It took a while for me to overcome it. Still having some side effects...

To the OP - buy the +10% mag springs ($17 per a pack of three) and stop worrying about it. I have been running original mags for over 13K (Through 5 mags). I had to buy the +10% springs recently because the original magazines started having issues (Maybe also due to the fact that I have never cleaned them).

[taadski]

The P01 isn't reliable with any SD ammo. My reloads were find in mine, but I needed to experiment with SD ammo to find one that was stone reliable.



Les, Did you do any experimentation with just having your barrels reamed and solving it that way? Seems like that's the solution a lot of people have had success with concerning the overall length issues, and specifically issues with carry ammo. I understand the heebie-jeebies sentiment of monkeying with a carry gun. Just wondering, as it's about a 5 minute job if ya have the reamer.


t

[Dagga Boy]

Just a thought on carry gun versus shooting/game gun. I do think it can be done, as long as you are shooting both regularly. I equate this to driving. Some folks suck, and should be restricted to their one vehicle they can barely manage. Others can drive anything. There was a time when I was regularly climbing out of my Ford Lightning and into a police package Caprice or Crown Vic. I was driving the crap out of all of them. It can be done and actually done fairly easily, but it does require solid work. I know GJM puts in the work. I figure a guy who can handle switching from a tail dragger, to standard fixed wing to rotary wing in rough conditions can handle gun switches on guns he is shooting near daily. Now, for regular earth people....not so much.

[Sal Picante]

Les, Did you do any experimentation with just having your barrels reamed and solving it that way? Seems like that's the solution a lot of people have had success with concerning the overall length issues, and specifically issues with carry ammo. I understand the heebie-jeebies sentiment of monkeying with a carry gun. Just wondering, as it's about a 5 minute job if ya have the reamer.


t

Except for chicks that were willing, I never fiddled with reaming.

[Chance B.]

That sounds more like a Timmy!

The tactical is strong with the Pepperoni. In the Super Dave class he let his inner Timmy shine.

[Saur]

GJM, what summer USP would that be? I thought it was a p2000.

[Mr_White]

Oh man, it is so true! It took a while for me to overcome it. Still having some side effects...

But have I not always said to you that I have no problem with you using different game and carry guns and that you need not do as I do?

You been shooting those CZs real good lately dude. That is excellent!

[cheby]

Thanks Gabe.
Looks like we need some therapy thread here to share our experience dealing with inner timmy.

[Sal Picante]

The tactical is strong with the Pepperoni. In the Super Dave class he let his inner Timmy shine.

That was the funniest thing that happened in that class...

"The only guy that shot the drill using a sound tactical approach was ... Les"

:confused:

[YVK]

YVK, in fairness, a bunch of that money was spent chasing a Shadow quality trigger in a carry gun,

Cause a gun with a "race trigger job" should not have a quarter inch reset, that's why. Insert "fucking" before "race" or "quarter inch", or both.

[Mr_White]

That was the funniest thing that happened in that class...

"The only guy that shot the drill using a sound tactical approach was ... Les"

:confused:

Is that because of all the lessons you learned whilst shooting IDPA?

[Chance B.]

That was the funniest thing that happened in that class...

"The only guy that shot the drill using a sound tactical approach was ... Les"

:confused:

I believe it was the Kirk roll and smoke grenades that made it tactical. Well, that and the additional velcro and molle that you applied to yourself before the drill...

[darkparadox]

Not sure what is going on in this thread anymore. I appreciate all of the suggestions though.

Going to give the new magazine springs a shot, and try some of the other suggestions in regards to getting the P01 running. At this point though, will likely pick up an H&K p2000 or SK in DA/SA or possibly a Beretta Compact / Subcompact. Will see if I can find a used one at a decent price. Or trade out a Glock. Tempted to try a P07, but afraid I'll run into the same issues.

Believe knowing enough about your firearms to maintain them and change out basic parts is paramount, but when you start mentioning a laundry list of changes, or cutting down springs... I opt out. And while I factor in 500 rounds of test ammo in any new EDC gun purchase, I cannot do that consistently every time I need to tinker with or verify my latest change has worked.

[GJM]

GJM, what summer USP would that be? I thought it was a p2000.

P2000 .40 in town, where I am only infrequently, and the USP .45 with super ammo, out where the creatures live.

[taadski]

Not sure what is going on in this thread anymore. I appreciate all of the suggestions though.

Just a bunch of background malarkey, ribbing and general tomfoolery. I've been trying to keep my helpful post ratio to at least 50% or better. :p ;)



t

[taadski]

Except for chicks that were willing, I never fiddled with reaming.


Why so defensive?

[Wheeler]

Not sure what is going on in this thread anymore. I appreciate all of the suggestions though.

Going to give the new magazine springs a shot, and try some of the other suggestions in regards to getting the P01 running. At this point though, will likely pick up an H&K p2000 or SK in DA/SA or possibly a Beretta Compact / Subcompact. Will see if I can find a used one at a decent price. Or trade out a Glock. Tempted to try a P07, but afraid I'll run into the same issues.

Believe knowing enough about your firearms to maintain them and change out basic parts is paramount, but when you start mentioning a laundry list of changes, or cutting down springs... I opt out. And while I factor in 500 rounds of test ammo in any new EDC gun purchase, I cannot do that consistently every time I need to tinker with or verify my latest change has worked.


There are a couple of P07 threads going in the forum that you might want to look into before you write them off completely.

[Default.mp3]

Does the safety on the P30 work acceptably well?Late reply, but having of owned only HK45s and P30LSes, I have found the safeties to work just fine, and have no issues riding them. Funny thing is, I now find 1911 safeties to not work for me, they sit too low for my tastes. I guess it's really just a matter of familiarity.

[Sal Picante]

Why so defensive?

Because, apparently, I'm a timmy?

;)

All kidding and terseness aside:

I considered it, for a moment on the comp gun, but since it didn't matter much for the competition gun (just load shorter), I didn't do it.
I think I just never considered it for the carry gun...

There are a far number of Tanfo and CZ owner who have reamed the chambers a bit longer. I think it works ok, though I do know of a few were the leade was made extremely long (may have influence accuracy...)

[Sal Picante]

Not sure what is going on in this thread anymore. I appreciate all of the suggestions though.

Going to give the new magazine springs a shot, and try some of the other suggestions in regards to getting the P01 running. At this point though, will likely pick up an H&K p2000 or SK in DA/SA or possibly a Beretta Compact / Subcompact. Will see if I can find a used one at a decent price. Or trade out a Glock. Tempted to try a P07, but afraid I'll run into the same issues.

Believe knowing enough about your firearms to maintain them and change out basic parts is paramount, but when you start mentioning a laundry list of changes, or cutting down springs... I opt out. And while I factor in 500 rounds of test ammo in any new EDC gun purchase, I cannot do that consistently every time I need to tinker with or verify my latest change has worked.

A few more choices/ideas to consider:

1.) Sphinx Compact and Sub Compact are pretty nice guns. Made very well - know a few gamer who put a fair number of rounds through them and they're holding up ok.
OOTB the DA will be pretty heavy, but not a total deal breaker. Guns have a workable decocker which I really like. Takes STD CZ mags reliably.

2.) P07 is a very nice gun. I dig it. Again, OOTB some of the triggers will be heavy. Stock triggers on the Omega system are usually gritty and stack.

3.) See the PX4 Beretta thread by Ernest Langdon. I kinda like the PX series (but am too invested in the 92 series)

4.) Matt Mink and CZCustom (Angus and Stewart) all do good work on decocker guns - they may be able to help reliability-wise?

Sorry about the thread drift, innuendo, etc... Its all the drinking and the Holidays?

Happy New Year - Hope things get sorted out or

[darkparadox]

was all ready to purchase a CZ p07 prior to my issues. Felt slightly better in my hand, and preferred the polymer.

Think it is fair to say my chances of not having issues with the pistol out of the box are slightly higher with an H&K p2000/sk or Beretta px4 compact/subcompact. Though, I could be mistaken.

[Danjojo]

Since you mentioned 10 round mags - even though I love the CZ 07/09 series...I don't know how they are with them. HK 10 rounders are known to be good stuff across the board though, and are frequently $20 for USPc and p2000. Maybe try to get a good price for your P-01 if a new mag spring doesnt produce a fix and then wait for new legislation/relocation as far as CZ's go.

[darkparadox]

Since you mentioned 10 round mags - even though I love the CZ 07/09 series...I don't know how they are with them. HK 10 rounders are known to be good stuff across the board though, and are frequently $20 for USPc and p2000. Maybe try to get a good price for your P-01 if a new mag spring doesnt produce a fix and then wait for new legislation/relocation as far as CZ's go.

New legislation? That word made me cringe.

In that case I'll be back asking which revolver to EDC in a few years

[Saur]

P2000 .40 in town, where I am only infrequently, and the USP .45 with super ammo, out where the creatures live.

Thanks! I went back and found your HK USP 45 field gun thread, very fascinating!

[CoGT3]

Been reading along with much interest as I am in similar situation as the OP.

I went through multiple handguns before finally drinking the CZ water. Currently carry a heavily modded P01 from CZ custom, Protek II. Love the gun, has been almost boringly HK reliable. However, what has me looking back at the P2000 again for daily carry/downstairs gun (USP stay up next to bed) is the availability of the Trijicon HD sights. I had them placed on both USPs when they became available and as my eyes have changed the last 5 years have become convinced it is one of the best available HD sight options. This past summer also picked up a Walther PPS and installed the HD sights again (gets hot in south florida in the summer, PPS is easy to conceal in light clothing). So, when practicing at the range it has become more obvious how more superior the HD sights are to the options for the CZ. I have spoken to Trijicon twice in the last year and the HD sights are not on the horizon for any CZs in the near future.

I am heading to the range this weekend to get time on some rental P2000/USPc, but am also interested in what the P2000 users think of the Beretta PX4 compact getting love by Langdon? I noticed in that thread that GJM has been playing around with one also.



Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

[Matthew]

I don't want to completely co-op the thread, but my issue fits somewhat closely to the OP (since it is CZ related), so I don't want to create a new thread. Since I'm new, I know the group likes to get an understanding of background.

Background

I’m a younger, average Joe. I have had no formal pistol training. I’m familiar with firearms, but only the average knowledge needed for safe carry, hunting and to safely make some noise. I’ve been reading this forum over the past few months. As former collegiate athlete, I really enjoyed seeing the hard work and effort from training pay off during the season. After perusing the forum and finding different benchmark tests, drills, ways to measure accuracy, time, etc., I have come to the realization that I can apply my same collegiate training mentality to my shooting ability as well.

Issue in Question

I'm questioning the carry of my CZ PCR. I want to be better equipped (skills, mindset, and equipment) to defend and protect my family and myself and to begin competing in IDPA/USPSA. I know this conversation shouldn't necessarily begin with equipment (as made evident in the gear thread in the Software forum), but I have a desire to start from the beginning on a simple platform to re-concentrate on the fundamentals.

I guess I should first explain what I want in my carry pistol:
-Hammer-fired
-Consistent trigger pull
-Great reliability track record
-Good aftermarket support (cheap mags, sight options, holsters)

I’m not completely satisfied with my PCR given my preferences above. I don’t necessarily like the complexity of the decocker sear cage, tighter chamber (thinking in terms of self defense load reliability), and the smaller slide (in terms of manipulations).

My reassessment and preference of my carry pistol is based on my reading on this forum.

I told myself that I should never sell, but I have it pretty stuck in my head that I “need” a different set up. At this point, I would be comfortable with ditching the CZ PCR to help fund something like:
-HK P2000 LEM
-HK USPc LEM
-Glock 19 w/ Gadget
-Sig P250

Training Gameplan

With that training question out of the way, I’m looking to establish a training regimen that is able to be adhered to during the work week and some range time on the weekend.

My first step is to implement Todd’s dry fire routine. This is something that I will be able to stick to during the work week as he advocates short, focused practices. Should I also pick up Ben Stoeger's dry fire book?

My second step is to implement specific drills during the weekend. I’m not positive where I should go here. I see a vast variety of drills on the site, but I see the following referenced the most: Dot Torture, 200, Bill Drill, and lastly the FAST as the benchmark. I do not own a timer, so I’m looking to pick up a Shotmaxx or Pocket Pro Timer II. Which is preferred?

Lastly, I will begin to seek some formal training as funds permit.

After that long introduction, may I ask for some feedback on the training template and equipment issue?

[psalms144.1]

Matthew - any of the pistols you mentioned should serve perfectly well in the self/home defense role. With the exception of the G19, none of them are going to be "easy" to compete with, since speed is the name of the game in nearly all competitions, and neither the LEM nor the P250's DAO are going to be very easy for a new shooter to "run" at speed. Some pro's and con's of the pistols you've mentioned:

1. GLOCK Pros: size efficiency - while the same size/general weight of the other models, it has a longer barrel and more magazine capacity than the HKs, and is smaller overall than the P250. As mentioned above, the trigger is consistent, and easy to "run" at speed. The Glock family is King of accessories/parts - it's hard to imagine a scenario where you'd have a pistol down for any length of time because you needed a part, or that there was a specific type of sight/holster/etc that you wanted that wasn't made for the G19. Cons: Not hammer fired, and, currently, we still don't have a firm arrival date for the Gadget. Unfortunately, post 2010, the Glocks which had been the definition of reliability, have been hit-and-miss out of the box - that has been improving, but I can't say with conviction that you'll GUARANTEED get a reliable G19 out of the box today. Lastly, while Gen4 pistols are generally more accurate, the Glock is, IMHO, the least inherently accurate pistol of those you've listed.

2. HK P2000/USPc - Pros: I would be perfectly comfortable predicting a new HK will run like a scalded dog out of the box. Accuracy, pure mechanical accuracy, is going to be best with either of the HKs. I think the HK paddle-style magazine release is the fastest, surest release on the market. Cons: I agree with Nyeti that the LEM is probably the best trigger on the market today for general LE work, where guns get pointed at people a lot more often then they get shot at people, BUT, it's a "unique" trigger that requires quite a bit of dedication to master, and would NOT be a trigger I'd choose for competition. HKs are inherently more expensive than any of the other options, and tend to have more expensive magazines. Night sight options for either the P2000 or USP are a lot more limited than the Glock.

3. P250 - pros: great "feel" in the hand, and the trigger is what most of us who grew up on DA revolvers would have dreamed of - very smooth and light. Mechanical accuracy will be very good, and, in deliberate shooting the trigger will help you wring the most out of it. I haven't shot one in several years, but, people I trust completely tell me that the most recent production guns are completely reliable. Cons: the least "popular" of the three options, you'll find very little in the way of parts/accessories for the P250. Complicating this is the fact that Sig designed the rear sight to be part of the backplate of the slide - with the end result that no one makes options for rear sights for this pistol. If the factory Meprolights work for you, you're good, if not, you're sucking...

Your training plan is good, though I would, if at all possible, accelerate the timing of the professional training. Dry fire is good, if you know what good dry fire looks/feels like. Remember, practice doesn't make perfect; PERFECT practice makes perfect. Bad practice ingrains bad habits and poor performance.

[RJ]

My first step is to implement Todd’s dry fire routine. This is something that I will be able to stick to during the work week as he advocates short, focused practices. Should I also pick up Ben Stoeger's dry fire book?



Not from what you've posted. I'm a noob, and I didn't get a lot out of it, to be honest, that isn't pretty much available online here and elsewhere.

[Matthew]

Matthew - any of the pistols you mentioned should serve perfectly well in the self/home defense role. With the exception of the G19, none of them are going to be "easy" to compete with, since speed is the name of the game in nearly all competitions, and neither the LEM nor the P250's DAO are going to be very easy for a new shooter to "run" at speed. Some pro's and con's of the pistols you've mentioned:

1. GLOCK snipped

2. HK P2000/USPc snipped

3. P250 snipped

Your training plan is good, though I would, if at all possible, accelerate the timing of the professional training. Dry fire is good, if you know what good dry fire looks/feels like. Remember, practice doesn't make perfect; PERFECT practice makes perfect. Bad practice ingrains bad habits and poor performance.

I really appreciate the detailed post. I do agree that I should try to make good training a higher priority. I'm hoping to make that happen within the next year.

My interest in Glock is that is has become ubiquitous. If I need anything, I will be able to find it. It seems like it is the reference standard, and I feel like it is a good place to get recentered on actual training. I should caveat that I do have a P320 as well (the only of pistol besides the PCR). I just feel uncomfortable carrying the 320 without a Gadget (or safety, and I don't necessarily want to worry about a safety).

If I were to go with the HK, it seems like it would be the P2000 as it is similar in size to the G19 and in a reasonable price range since the price drop. I have seen mags @ $20.

The P250 idea came about since I already have the 320. I'm not heavily invested in the 320, so I don't have many mags/holsters I would be able to use for the 250.

Any thoughts on a decent timer?

[Matthew]

Not from what you've posted. I'm a noob, and I didn't get a lot out of it, to be honest, that isn't pretty much available online here and elsewhere.

Thanks for the heads up!

[OnionsAndDragons]

Matthew,

What are your goals with competition?

If you want to game, you may want to look at a beretta or a different CZ model. The PX4 compact would fit your carry criteria, and be a better game gun by far than a P2000 or the 250. A 92 of some sort even more so.

A CZ P series with some CGW work could also work here.

That's if you are married to the hammer and want to really game. The Glock would be great for both roles as stated by others.

If you want to compete just for enjoyment, skill testing and gear proofing; the P2000 is a top notch carry gun. The LEM is tougher to get really good with (I'm not there but I'm working it), and is a handicap if you want to play the game for the games sake.

I personally don't like the sight restriction of the 250, though I do like the trigger. All the other guns you can find decent sights for. Dawson, 10-8, HDs or something similar. You'll find the most parts and accessories availability from Glocks or a 92 series Beretta.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[Nephrology]

I would try improved magazines before jumping ship. 4 malfunctions in 1500 round isn't really the end of the world, especially if there is a known failure point you haven't addressed...

[RevolverRob]

I'm curious about the issues with certain pistols. Is it the norm to ditch the gun and pick up something completely different or diagnose the issues with the gun and fix the mechanical problems?

I am a kind of an asshole about carry guns. If it has ever had any malfunction other than failure to lock back on an empty magazine that is not directly ammo related (more on that in a second). I won't carry it. I'll shoot it, I'll own it, but I won't carry it. My guns are 100% through thousands of rounds and once they go, the get retired for a replacement and pushed into range service (seriously).

RE: Ammo related, the example I am thinking of. I made the mistake, once, of buying CCI Blazer .38 LRNs in aluminum cases. You got to shoot three of five rounds through a J-Frame, before the recoil resulted in bullet pull and locked the gun up. I shot up the rest of it in a steel K-Frame and solved that "mechanical" problem.


I wouldn't know.
I shoot H&K's so I've never experienced any "issues".
:rolleyes::p:cool:

If you shoot quality revolvers you usually don't have this issues either. But no one is as cool as you, Jody.


Re:the LEM - I carried an HK USPC LEM as both my on and off duty gun for 8 years. Psalms is spot on regarding the difference in how to run the LEM trigger vs a. Glock trigger. You need to run the LEM like a DA revolver trigger. In fact a DA revolver would be a great training tool to help you learn the LEM.

Exactly. The best way is to dry-fire them a bunch. These are pulls you have to learn to love and use.



Agree with all of the above GJM, except for one thing. I don't think HK ever pushed the LEM as a superior shooting trigger, I think the pushed it as a superior trigger for issue to LE....and I now agree with that. The problem was that some folks were able to do a good job shooting it well, and then it was pushed as superior because some people could shoot it really well. I have found they shoot well for me in any drill that is control based and par time based rather than pushed to max speed or drills and tests requiring a maximum speed push. Most know I like it as a people management trigger, and one I feel very in tune with...which does not mean I can shoot it as fast as other things, but it generally only goes bang when I really want it to.

The most important aspect of a handgun used for a defensive purpose, in my uninformed opinion. And why I prefer heavier DA pulls and revolvers in most instances.



For a DA/SA carry gun, the safe bets sure would seem to be a 92 Compact, P series or HK.


No love for 3rd-gen Smiths? :P

____

OP not sure, but if you've resolved your issue. Dry-fire + LEM can find you an excellent carry system. I'm not as fast running DA revolvers as a tricked out 1911 or even a buddy's gamer'ized CZ SP101 - but overall I find myself easily capable of reaching 80% of my speed/accuracy with carry guns 100% of the time.

___

Matthew - RE: Your criteria -

-Hammer-fired
-Consistent trigger pull
-Great reliability track record
-Good aftermarket support (cheap mags, sight options, holsters)

Pick three. Personally, in your position, I'd go HK LEM for hammer fired, consistent trigger pull, great reliability. The aftermarket isn't as strong say Glock (i.e., there is no such thing as a cheap HK magazine), but the other three are the more important criteria.

-Rob

[David S.]

Matthew.

-There is nothing wrong with the conversation starting with equipment. The point of that thread was not to dwell on equipment as the answer. . Pick some equipment that meets your requirements and rock on.

-have you had any actual failures with your CZ? Has it given you an actual reason to give up on it, or is your concern based on reading about tight tolerances and that you'll forget to decock under stress? If not, it might be better to allocate scarce resources to training, ammo, other gear.

-Your training plan looks solid. As someone above mentioned, try to get to a high quality, 2 day class ASAP. Learn good habits now. Are you willing to give an approximate location? We may be able to point you towards good quality training and resources in your area.

-Shot timer. Based on your background, I think you've got some time before the shot timer is a necessary piece of equipment. Resurrect the shotmaxx thread and see what you come up with. I seem to recall some teething issues early on but they may be fixed now. I don't own a shot timer but the shotmaxx seems like a good option for personal use.

[HopetonBrown]

I don't own a shot timer but the shotmaxx seems like a good option for personal use.

If someone was gonna start running, one piece of equipment everyone would recommend is a stopwatch. A shot timer is the stopwatch of the shooting world.

[taadski]

If someone was gonna start competitively running, one piece of equipment everyone would recommend is a stopwatch. A shot timer is the stopwatch of the shooting world.

FIFY. There are tons of folks that own guns and shoot regularly whose "practice" is more akin to leisurely jogging around the neighborhood than running timed 400s (or whatever). But I do agree with your point. There's no faster track (;)) to dramatic skill improvement than working against the clock.

[HopetonBrown]

I don't run competitively, but I use a stopwatch to track my progress. Alway have.

[taadski]

My first step is to implement Todd’s dry fire routine. This is something that I will be able to stick to during the work week as he advocates short, focused practices. Should I also pick up Ben Stoeger's dry fire book?

My second step is to implement specific drills during the weekend. I’m not positive where I should go here. I see a vast variety of drills on the site, but I see the following referenced the most: Dot Torture, 200, Bill Drill, and lastly the FAST as the benchmark.


Sounds like you're on the right track.



Not from what you've posted. I'm a noob, and I didn't get a lot out of it, to be honest, that isn't pretty much available online here and elsewhere.


I find that response interesting, Rich. Not to pick on you or anything, but I think some of the best resources available for getting better at the pure shooting part (especially for those with a gaming interest) are Stoeger and Anderson's dry fire bibles. Worth every penny (and 10 fold that if you're willing to put forth the effort to follow the programs). IMO, there is simply no faster path to higher level technical skill. And mind you I'm not recommending them instead of classes or other available resources, but rather in addition to them.

I think, to a large extent, it's the organization (the program) that is so effective and helpful. Matt, I think you'll find them pretty valuable in finding direction for your live fire practice also. Again, not to take anything away from all the great drills in the DOTWs, etc… But they seem to be more 'drills in isolation'. Although I think Gabe is reshaping that to some extent.

Oh, and I'd shoot the shit outta that CZ (or a duplicate/similar/full sized one) for a while and see how she shakes out in stock form. You might be pleasantly surprised. And the DA AND SA effort will pay miles of dividends to your trigger control down the road.


Just my 2 cents.




t

[taadski]

I don't run competitively, but I use a stopwatch to track my progress. Alway have.


Fair. Your analogy was a good one.

Don't let me mess it up with my own bias. :p FWIW, I use running as a "get out of my head" activity. A zen for those 'too A.D.D. to sit still and meditate' kinda thing. And the clock is a definite distraction from that. Sorry for the derail.



t

[RJ]

^^^ Gah dang, I am an idiot.

I went back to my Kindle ordering history, and the book I did not remember getting much out of, was actually Stoeger's "Skills and Drills" book. My bad.

So, strike all after 'Good Morning.' :cool:

Here is the funny / ironic thing: I'm going through Stoeger's books on my iPad just now, and whatdaya know, I DO find his dry fire book. I go to check it out to see if I've seen it, and I go and accidentally order it under the 'one click' Kindle option, lol.

So I guess I am going to read it anyways, since I'm out the $10 now. I'll let ya know if I get anything out of it. ;)

[Mitch]

I really appreciate the detailed post. I do agree that I should try to make good training a higher priority. I'm hoping to make that happen within the next year.

My interest in Glock is that is has become ubiquitous. If I need anything, I will be able to find it. It seems like it is the reference standard, and I feel like it is a good place to get recentered on actual training. I should caveat that I do have a P320 as well (the only of pistol besides the PCR). I just feel uncomfortable carrying the 320 without a Gadget (or safety, and I don't necessarily want to worry about a safety).

If I were to go with the HK, it seems like it would be the P2000 as it is similar in size to the G19 and in a reasonable price range since the price drop. I have seen mags @ $20.

The P250 idea came about since I already have the 320. I'm not heavily invested in the 320, so I don't have many mags/holsters I would be able to use for the 250.

Any thoughts on a decent timer?

Do you have a smart phone? There's shot timer apps, they aren't great but they're usually free. If you want a separate machine, I use a pocket pro II and I've been pretty happy with it.

As for the rest of the thread, I think you're at the point where you need to invest in some training before you spend money on anything else, shot timers included. You'll probably gain more from a weekend with a good trainer than you would have if you practiced for an entire year before taking said class. You can also avoid practicing with bad habits and having to work twice as hard to break them later.

The 320 is fine for a training class, and afterwards if you decide you want to change things up hardware wise, go nuts. You'll come away with a much more solid idea of what you want then. You may also decide it doesn't matter all that much and buy a couple cases of ammo instead.

[Rustin]

http://www.lionheartindustries.com/firearms

I haven't tried one yet but everyone who does seems to love it. Glock 19 size with a slim hi power-esque slide. Much better for iwb. 26 ounces with unloaded magazine vs 32oz unloaded for hi power. Cocked and locked or double action plus. Maybe it should be called double action negative considering it lightens the double action considerably.

Can be found at around 550$.

[Chuck Whitlock]

3. P250 - pros: great "feel" in the hand, and the trigger is what most of us who grew up on DA revolvers would have dreamed of - very smooth and light. Mechanical accuracy will be very good, and, in deliberate shooting the trigger will help you wring the most out of it. I haven't shot one in several years, but, people I trust completely tell me that the most recent production guns are completely reliable. Cons: the least "popular" of the three options, you'll find very little in the way of parts/accessories for the P250. Complicating this is the fact that Sig designed the rear sight to be part of the backplate of the slide - with the end result that no one makes options for rear sights for this pistol. If the factory Meprolights work for you, you're good, if not, you're sucking...


Matthew,
I personally don't like the sight restriction of the 250, though I do like the trigger.

Just a point of clarification. The rear sight on the 250 is also the firing pin stop, and to the best of my knowledge, you are limited to either the contrast or night sights offered by Sig....they do have 3 different heights available.
The front sight, however, uses the standard Sig dovetail. Off the top of my head, I don't remember if mine came with a #6 or #8 night sight, but I swapped it out with the equivelent Ameriglo orange CAP front sight.

All other info is spot on.

[JAD]

http://www.lionheartindustries.com/firearms


When I was twenty six I went to a gunshow intent on buying my first handgun. I handled a Daewoo DP, which is more or less what has become the lionheart, and it rattled like a bag of bones. I drifted over and bought a G19, took it to Gunsite, and eventually bought a mid-ban DR-200 to scratch my kimchi itch.

[taadski]

^^^ Gah dang, I am an idiot.

I went back to my Kindle ordering history, and the book I did not remember getting much out of, was actually Stoeger's "Skills and Drills" book. My bad.

So, strike all after 'Good Morning.' :cool:

Here is the funny / ironic thing: I'm going through Stoeger's books on my iPad just now, and whatdaya know, I DO find his dry fire book. I go to check it out to see if I've seen it, and I go and accidentally order it under the 'one click' Kindle option, lol.

So I guess I am going to read it anyways, since I'm out the $10 now. I'll let ya know if I get anything out of it. ;)


Just remember, you can read and read and read, but the rubber will meet the road when you make a schedule, get out there and actually do the drills.

[Matthew]

Matthew,

What are your goals with competition?

If you want to game, you may want to look at a beretta or a different CZ model. The PX4 compact would fit your carry criteria, and be a better game gun by far than a P2000 or the 250. A 92 of some sort even more so.

A CZ P series with some CGW work could also work here.

That's if you are married to the hammer and want to really game. The Glock would be great for both roles as stated by others.

If you want to compete just for enjoyment, skill testing and gear proofing; the P2000 is a top notch carry gun. The LEM is tougher to get really good with (I'm not there but I'm working it), and is a handicap if you want to play the game for the games sake.

I personally don't like the sight restriction of the 250, though I do like the trigger. All the other guns you can find decent sights for. Dawson, 10-8, HDs or something similar. You'll find the most parts and accessories availability from Glocks or a 92 series Beretta.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

My goals with competition is to be able to shoot under pressure and on command. As with many things, I feel competition is a great thing. As for now, I'm not looking to become a straight gamer with dedicated equipment. I want to be able to shoot competition with my carry gear (or full size variant) extremely well before moving on to that next level. If I continued with the CZ, I could see it segue into one of their more competition oriented models.




Matthew - RE: Your criteria -

-Hammer-fired
-Consistent trigger pull
-Great reliability track record
-Good aftermarket support (cheap mags, sight options, holsters)

Pick three. Personally, in your position, I'd go HK LEM for hammer fired, consistent trigger pull, great reliability. The aftermarket isn't as strong say Glock (i.e., there is no such thing as a cheap HK magazine), but the other three are the more important criteria.

-Rob

Yeah, those four criteria seem fit to be analyzed on a Venn diagram to find which pistols lie at the intersections of each. I agree that will be difficult to find all four, but an HK P2000 may be the closet thing to it.

[Matthew]

Matthew.

-There is nothing wrong with the conversation starting with equipment. The point of that thread was not to dwell on equipment as the answer. . Pick some equipment that meets your requirements and rock on.

-have you had any actual failures with your CZ? Has it given you an actual reason to give up on it, or is your concern based on reading about tight tolerances and that you'll forget to decock under stress? If not, it might be better to allocate scarce resources to training, ammo, other gear.

-Your training plan looks solid. As someone above mentioned, try to get to a high quality, 2 day class ASAP. Learn good habits now. Are you willing to give an approximate location? We may be able to point you towards good quality training and resources in your area.

-Shot timer. Based on your background, I think you've got some time before the shot timer is a necessary piece of equipment. Resurrect the shotmaxx thread and see what you come up with. I seem to recall some teething issues early on but they may be fixed now. I don't own a shot timer but the shotmaxx seems like a good option for personal use.

I have not had any failures with my PCR. So far, I have only fed it with Lawman 124g. I still need to try a variety of SD ammo. So, my issue there was more related to forgetting to decock, etc.

Pannone, McNamara, Defoor, and Vickers have held classes near me (in the NE). I just didn't have the funds in the past year to go.


If someone was gonna start running, one piece of equipment everyone would recommend is a stopwatch. A shot timer is the stopwatch of the shooting world.

I really like this analogy. I see it as another benchmark for me to measure progress. Even though I will be starting extremely slow, I think I still want to have an idea of where I'm landing.


Sounds like you're on the right track.

I find that response interesting, Rich. Not to pick on you or anything, but I think some of the best resources available for getting better at the pure shooting part (especially for those with a gaming interest) are Stoeger and Anderson's dry fire bibles. Worth every penny (and 10 fold that if you're willing to put forth the effort to follow the programs). IMO, there is simply no faster path to higher level technical skill. And mind you I'm not recommending them instead of classes or other available resources, but rather in addition to them.

I think, to a large extent, it's the organization (the program) that is so effective and helpful. Matt, I think you'll find them pretty valuable in finding direction for your live fire practice also. Again, not to take anything away from all the great drills in the DOTWs, etc… But they seem to be more 'drills in isolation'. Although I think Gabe is reshaping that to some extent.

Oh, and I'd shoot the shit outta that CZ (or a duplicate/similar/full sized one) for a while and see how she shakes out in stock form. You might be pleasantly surprised. And the DA AND SA effort will pay miles of dividends to your trigger control down the road.

Just my 2 cents.

t

I wasn't only looking at the books as a way to continue to act like a sponge and soak up information.

I'm starting to think I should be sticking with the CZ, given no troubles. I just don't see many people making them their self-defense first choice.

[Matthew]

Do you have a smart phone? There's shot timer apps, they aren't great but they're usually free. If you want a separate machine, I use a pocket pro II and I've been pretty happy with it.

As for the rest of the thread, I think you're at the point where you need to invest in some training before you spend money on anything else, shot timers included. You'll probably gain more from a weekend with a good trainer than you would have if you practiced for an entire year before taking said class. You can also avoid practicing with bad habits and having to work twice as hard to break them later.

The 320 is fine for a training class, and afterwards if you decide you want to change things up hardware wise, go nuts. You'll come away with a much more solid idea of what you want then. You may also decide it doesn't matter all that much and buy a couple cases of ammo instead.

I was aware of some different shot timer apps, but I never heard them to be more troubling than anything.

Based on all the responses so far, it looks like training should be pushed to the forefront. I don't think I'll be able to do any formal training within the next 9 months (if you catch my drift), so I think I may be leaning toward a timer and ammo.

[David S.]

I have not had any failures with my PCR. So far, I have only fed it with Lawman 124g. I still need to try a variety of SD ammo. So, my issue there was more related to forgetting to decock, etc.

Pannone, McNamara, Defoor, and Vickers have held classes near me (in the NE). I just didn't have the funds in the past year to go.

I'm starting to think I should be sticking with the CZ, given no troubles. I just don't see many people making them their self-defense first choice.

Not sure where you are in the NE. Bruce Gray, Jerry Jones and crew (http://opspectraining.com/) run a couple classes per year at Sig Sauer Academy in NH. Practical Fundamentals is an outstanding class to learn the DA/SA trigger.

I understand Mike Pannone was running a CZ for a while.

[HopetonBrown]

FIFY. There are tons of folks that own guns and shoot regularly whose "practice" is more akin to leisurely jogging around the neighborhood than running timed 400s (or whatever).


I use running as a "get out of my head" activity. A zen for those 'too A.D.D. to sit still and meditate' kinda thing. And the clock is a definite distraction from that.

I understand. Doesn't make those types of shooting or running any less valid, but P-F isn't for those kind of shooters, just as the Runners World forum isn't geared towards your kind of running.

[HopetonBrown]

Pannone, McNamara, Defoor, and Vickers have held classes near me (in the NE). I just didn't have the funds in the past year to go.

I've trained with 3 of those guys, and I am too lazy to see what your shooting background is, but those classes aren't geared towards newer shooters without previous formal training/competition experience. If you've had no formal instruction, any A class/Expert shooter from USPSA/IDPA could help you out in just a few hours at your local range.

[kcevans]

The PX4 Compact or the HK 2000 will work great for what your looking for. I still have a couple PX4's with the compact being my favorite, I have since started playing around with the HK P2000 series of pistols to include an LEM and V3. It seems to be easier to get parts for the P2000 than the PX4 series, HKParts.net is awesome to deal with along with great tutorials on the HKPro forum on how to perform any repair or upgrade you can think of.

[RevolverRob]

I use Surefire's shot timer app on my iPhone even for dryfire. It works at the range (when you're the only one around is when it works best). In a quiet house, you can calibrate it to pick up the sound of your hammer falling with moderate success (works best with DA/LEM guns, actually). Mostly, I just set par-times, random start, and work to get my dry-fire within those par-times. Then at the range you can run the shot timer normally and compare. If you have an idea what your par-times should/want to be, set the timer 10-20% under those times and push yourself. I've maintained solid benchmarks with this routine.

-Rob

[OnionsAndDragons]

I use Surefire's shot timer app on my iPhone even for dryfire. It works at the range (when you're the only one around is when it works best). In a quiet house, you can calibrate it to pick up the sound of your hammer falling with moderate success (works best with DA/LEM guns, actually). Mostly, I just set par-times, random start, and work to get my dry-fire within those par-times. Then at the range you can run the shot timer normally and compare. If you have an idea what your par-times should/want to be, set the timer 10-20% under those times and push yourself. I've maintained solid benchmarks with this routine.

-Rob

I've had good luck with this as well, Rob.

I'm usually not shooting in a line, just with my partner, so it is plenty good for what I need right now. Which is a fairly accurate time metric to keep me honest. Random starts and par times for dry practice gets used A LOT!

I real timer is on my birthday wish list, but I'm not in a rush. :)


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[Matthew]

Not sure where you are in the NE. Bruce Gray, Jerry Jones and crew (http://opspectraining.com/) run a couple classes per year at Sig Sauer Academy in NH. Practical Fundamentals is an outstanding class to learn the DA/SA trigger.

I understand Mike Pannone was running a CZ for a while.

I'll take a look into the class at the Academy. It isn't too far away. According to Mike Pannone, he has shot 45,000 rounds with his P09 without any breakages. That at least gives me a little more hope for my CZ (even though my PCR does use the omega trigger system).


I've trained with 3 of those guys, and I am too lazy to see what your shooting background is, but those classes aren't geared towards newer shooters without previous formal training/competition experience. If you've had no formal instruction, any A class/Expert shooter from USPSA/IDPA could help you out in just a few hours at your local range.

Thanks for the insight. I'll vet the guys at the range to see who is a decent ranked shooter. Then, I'll dive into some more advanced classes.


The PX4 Compact or the HK 2000 will work great for what your looking for. I still have a couple PX4's with the compact being my favorite, I have since started playing around with the HK P2000 series of pistols to include an LEM and V3. It seems to be easier to get parts for the P2000 than the PX4 series, HKParts.net is awesome to deal with along with great tutorials on the HKPro forum on how to perform any repair or upgrade you can think of.

While I may be sticking with the PCR, I think the P2000 is at the top of my list. If I can master the DA/SA trigger, it really opens up some things for me. I would be interested in the PX4 if I could grip chop a fullsize to accept compact mags.

[Mr_White]

...I think some of the best resources available for getting better at the pure shooting part (especially for those with a gaming interest) are Stoeger and Anderson's dry fire bibles. Worth every penny (and 10 fold that if you're willing to put forth the effort to follow the programs). IMO, there is simply no faster path to higher level technical skill. And mind you I'm not recommending them instead of classes or other available resources, but rather in addition to them.

I think, to a large extent, it's the organization (the program) that is so effective and helpful. Matt, I think you'll find them pretty valuable in finding direction for your live fire practice also. Again, not to take anything away from all the great drills in the DOTWs, etc… But they seem to be more 'drills in isolation'. Although I think Gabe is reshaping that to some extent.

Oh, and I'd shoot the shit outta that CZ (or a duplicate/similar/full sized one) for a while and see how she shakes out in stock form. You might be pleasantly surprised. And the DA AND SA effort will pay miles of dividends to your trigger control down the road.

Completely agree! If you want a ready-made dry practice program that is well constructed and holds a lot of potential for improvement, I'd wholeheartedly recommend Ben Stoeger's material.

[Matthew]

Alright, I've decided to stick with the CZ. I haven't had any issues with it, so I'll be picking up a couple more mags, a copy of Ben Stoeger's dry fire book, and a timer. I'm torn between the Shotmaxx and the Pocket Pro II. I don't want to be pulling out my phone all the time on the range to use a app timer.

[David S.]

Thread: ShotMaxx Wristwatch Timer (https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?10863-ShotMaxx-Wristwatch-Timer)

[Urban_Redneck]

I'll add my most recent experience with defense loads in my PCR. Sunday, I shot up 85 assorted 124gr 9mm hollow points- Golden Saber, Critical Defense, HPR, and 50 rounds of 147gr HST. All fed, fired, and ejected, from CZ 14rd and MecGar 16rd mags. Pistol has CGW 11.5 lb hammer spring and extended firing pin.

I installed the tritium front sight from my SP-01 Tactical and went to 147s to bring the point of impact up a little.

YMMV

[Matthew]

I'll add my most recent experience with defense loads in my PCR. Sunday, I shot up 85 assorted 124gr 9mm hollow points- Golden Saber, Critical Defense, HPR, and 50 rounds of 147gr HST. All fed, fired, and ejected, from CZ 14rd and MecGar 16rd mags. Pistol has CGW 11.5 lb hammer spring and extended firing pin.

I installed the tritium front sight from my SP-01 Tactical and went to 147s to bring the point of impact up a little.

YMMV

Great! I've probably put close to 800 of 124g Lawman and only a handful of Gold Dots with no issues. I want to try a couple others.

What base pads do you have on the 16 round Mecgars to keep it flush with the grip? The SP-01 pads?

[GJM]

Pepperoni and I both independently concluded that 124+P Gold Dot felt hot for the alloy P01.

[Matthew]

Pepperoni and I both independently concluded that 124+P Gold Dot felt hot for the alloy P01.

Specifically the +P? I only put a handful through, so I'll keep an eye out. I'll try some non +P 124, 147 HST, Ranger-T 147, etc.

[GJM]

Specifically the +P? I only put a handful through, so I'll keep an eye out. I'll try some non +P 124, 147 HST, Ranger-T 147, etc.

Yes, the +P part.

[CoGT3]

My P01 loves 147 HST, been through a 1000 at this point without hiccup. Also agree 124+P was not my cup of tea, a little snappy without any real ballistic improvement.

[Urban_Redneck]

Great! I've probably put close to 800 of 124g Lawman and only a handful of Gold Dots with no issues. I want to try a couple others.

What base pads do you have on the 16 round Mecgars to keep it flush with the grip? The SP-01 pads?

They are not flush with the bottom of the grip, I holster 14 +1 and have a 16 rounder as a reload.

http://gregcotellc.com/cart/images/CZ%2075%20COMPACT%209MM%2016RD%20EXTENDED%2011119. png

[GJM]

Have you tested that combo thoroughly with slide lock reloads? It has been a while, but I recall some issues using the full size magazine in the P01 at slide lock.

[Urban_Redneck]

I've never deliberately tested for that failure, but, I have shot 4 IDPA matches using the +2 mags without a failure. These are Mec-Gar compact mags with their +2 base pad.

The only failure I've experienced thus far has been with a .380 case that slipped through my sorting/reloading/inspection (or lack there of) process, it fired and failed to extract.