More Trigger Finger, Really?

[BCGlocker]

I just saw this video,


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G8JX2hZR_6g

Your thoughts?

[Gray222]

While there may be something about how much finger to put on the trigger in that video, it was difficult to navigate through all the tough-guy lingo.

The answer is, it is different for everyone.

I used to chase the "perfect" amount of finger to put on the trigger and now I just default to a full grip. No breaking of knuckles, no middle of the trigger finger, none of that stuff. Full grip, full finger, pistol, rifle, blade, whatever all the same no issues and I am more accurate with this than I was chasing anything else.

Your results may differ.

[Lyonsgrid]

Just noticed my son’s new Boba Fett keeps trying to use only the tip.

So are you like Boba or Pat?

5131

[okie john]

Your thoughts?

I've known Mac for many years. He's one of the few people whose opinion I rarely question.

Give his suggestion a try. It it works--and it probably will--then fine. If not, then try something else.


Okie John

[okie john]

Delete duplicate post.

[JHC]

My fingers are plenty long for any trigger option, but "sinking" it has worked best.

[Lomshek]

I just saw this video,


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G8JX2hZR_6g

Your thoughts?

It can work great for some folks. On striker fired guns the first crease has worked best for my mediocre shooting ability and medium size hands.

Try the trigger stripe drill with different finger locations and see what works best for you both fast and slow fire.


https://youtu.be/Azb3q8wOrV4


"Really big dick beaters." I snorted when he said that! Pat Mac is purebred rude, crude and kick ass Infantry through and through!

[JSGlock34]

We were discussing the value of attending formal training in another thread a few months back, and I remembered writing...


Another, more experienced, shooter was consistently grouping to the left with her Glock pistol, not an uncommon problem. The instructor discussed trigger finger placement and suggested that the student use more finger on the trigger. We all watched as the student went from consistently left to a tight center mass group. Her improvement was dramatic.

I've found Glock pistols in particular are sensitive to trigger finger placement, and more trigger finger certainly helps keep my groups centered. I tend to notice it when I've stepped away from Glock for an extended period. Try it. And the instructor was not Mr. McNamara, but another top level competitive shooter.

[RJ]

I always wondered about this. I might give it a try.

Thanks for posting the video.

[Robinson]

Mr. McNamara is a fan of the 1911 pistol as well as the Glock -- I wonder if he uses that same trigger technique for the 1911. I typically get a lot of finger on the trigger of revolvers and striker-fired guns, but I use just the pad for the 1911.

[Warren Wilson]

It's a challenge finding the right trigger finger placement when you have monkey hands (paws?). I've tried doing it the "correct" way, but using a little more finger on the trigger works better for me. I don't to put in writing how I shoot a J-frame for fear of a lifetime Internet ban.

[gringop]

First answer. "It depends"

Second answer. "On your dick beaters"

Third to infinity answer. "And a lot of other factors"

What gun are you shooting? What trigger does it have? What target, distance and speed are you shooting? Etc, etc, etc...

Reading from the Book of Armaments: "More finger on the trigger only works in certain circumstances...such as when you need more finger on the trigger. At other times, it is a simple stupid default answer that does not work."

"Thank you Brother Maynard"


Gringo "A Duck!" p

[HCM]

First answer. "It depends"

Second answer. "On your dick beaters"

Third to infinity answer. "And a lot of other factors"

What gun are you shooting? What trigger does it have? What target, distance and speed are you shooting? Etc, etc, etc...

Reading from the Book of Armaments: "More finger on the trigger only works in certain circumstances...such as when you need more finger on the trigger. At other times, it is a simple stupid default answer that does not work."

"Thank you Brother Maynard"


Gringo "A Duck!" p

This ^^^^^

Those trigger finger charts floating around the internet are BS. Proper trigger finger placement is what ever will allow you to pull the trigger straight to the rear and finish flat. Particularly with the Glock,

I have XXL hands. For most handguns, I shoot middle of the pad. For DA revolvers and particularly Glocks. I shoot first crease.

Actually with the Glock, I can shoot either tip of the finger (hook and curl) or the crease and get centered hits. If I shoot middle of the pad everything is to the left. The tip gives abit better control in slow fire but I've defaulted to the crease because it is more consistent at speed.

Sinking the finger / natural lay of the finger is nothing new - the U.S Army AMU has been teaching it for years for both pistol and rifle. It works very well, especially with one of those god awful 10lb 3 round burst triggers.

[HCM]

I've found Glock pistols in particular are sensitive to trigger finger placement, and more trigger finger certainly helps keep my groups centered. I tend to notice it when I've stepped away from Glock for an extended period. Try it. And the instructor was not Mr. McNamara, but another top level competitive shooter.

Yes. Surf does a great job explaining why in his trigger control videos. Basically if you viewed the. Glock trigger from the top, it is much rounder than most triggers, plus you have the trigger safety sticking out from the apex. So a right handed shooter engaging the trigger with the middle of the pad will "teeter - toter" on the trigger safety and engage only the trigger safety and the left side of the trigger . As a result, they pull the trigger to their right rear (4 o'clock) instead of straight to the rear( 6 o'clock. This in turn pushes the muzzle to the shooters 10' o'clock pushing their shots to the left.

This also explains the popularity of aftermarket flat replacement triggers for the Glock.

[dbateman]

I find that I tend not to use the "correct" trigger finger placement.

The best way I have found to find it, is play around with it in dry fire, you will see via your sights when you have found the best place on your finger to press the trigger.

[xmanhockey7]

I just get my finger far enough in that I can get a good straight press to the gear. Trigger is on a different portion of my finger whether I'm shooting a G19 or Shield or J-frame. When I took Fishers Critial Handgun class he taught me to get more finger in the trigger. With how big Fisher's paws are it wouldn't surprise me if he was the one who gave the tip. Dude gripping a government model 1911 looks like me holding a Sig 238.

[Jared]

I've got a feeling I'd be flogged if folks saw how much finger I use on a J-Frame, but damn if it don't work pretty good for me out to 25 yards.

[JSGlock34]

Mr. McNamara is a fan of the 1911 pistol as well as the Glock -- I wonder if he uses that same trigger technique for the 1911. I typically get a lot of finger on the trigger of revolvers and striker-fired guns, but I use just the pad for the 1911.

He adopted this technique when transitioning from the 1911 to the Glock.

Soldier Systems - Gunfighter Moment - Pat McNamara (http://soldiersystems.net/2013/10/26/gunfighter-moment-pat-mcnamara-14/)

Gunfighter Moment – Pat McNamara

The king daddy of all marksmanship fundamentals is Trigger Control. I do not consider this debatable. Partially due to the fact that I cannot see my front sight anymore. It’s there and visible on target but all a blur. I’m still quite capable of knocking the X ring out at 25 though.

My teaching of trigger control differs from many other of my fellow credible instructors who I respect.

When I transitioned from 1911 to Glock 19 (For administrative reasons) about a decade ago, I would push my group to my non-firing side. Frustrated, I called a friend at the AMU and asked his advice. He told me that he puts so much finger on the trigger that when complete with his trigger squeeze, he can drop his magazine with his trigger finger. This became my magic elixir. Since sinking my finger, I’ve straightened out my group. I teach this as well with some push back mind you.

In my opinion, splitting the distal phalange, or finger tip, is an anachronism. When using this method, the trigger finger is essentially a fulcrum where sinking the finger becomes a vice. The vice pulls evenly while the fulcrum speeds up at the end of the squeeze. I’m not suggesting that I am right and that this is law. I will add though, that if you do what you’ve always done, you’ll get what you’ve always gotten.

Patrick McNamara
SGM, US Army (Ret)

[Casual Friday]

What Mac suggests in that video is the only way I can shoot. I spent a lot of time using just the pad or just to the first knuckle crease and always struggled. Once I gave it more finger, *phrasing*, I was able to overcome the problems I was having with trigger control.

[Beat Trash]

I grew up in a world where you carried and learned how to shoot a DA revolver (S&W of course...). If you shot a pistol, it was a 1911. There really isn't a third choice. You learned to sink more finger on the DA trigger of the DA revolver. I would sink so much trigger on my DA revolver that I could stage the DA trigger pull if I wanted to by touching the tips of my trigger finger to my thumb. My 1911's required a different finger placement. But it was easy to distinguish between the needs of the two.

The face of the Glock trigger isn't flat. This caused my finger to pivot when I used my "1911" finger placement. I would then notice my groups go left (I'm right handed). Several years ago, I dug out one of the old revolvers from the back of the safe and was dry firing it. I was frustrated with a recent trip to the range with a Glock 19. While dry firing the revolver, something made me think about finger placement on my Glocks. I ignored how I was "supposed" to place my finger on a semi auto pistol, and tried to dry fire my Glock like it was my K-Frame revolver. It took a few minutes to find the sweet spot for my finger on the Glock, but what I was basically doing was to, "Sink more finger on it".

I've never met Mac. But I agree with what he said on his video. And I rather enjoyed his no BS approach to explaining the process.

[SLG]

I haven't watched the video, but I read all the comments and the quoted statement from Mr. Macnamara. I have always put my finger as far through the trigger guard as possible. On DA/SA Sigs, this means that I'm pulling with my first joint. Never been an issue. On 1911's, I can be past the first joint. Not an issue. On Glocks I'm on or past the joint. Not an issue.

[Erick Gelhaus]

My fingers are a bit too short to do this with most pistols; however, back in '04 I was introduced to this with the M16/M4 family. Gave it a try and found that for me, and subsequently for some others, using the second pad of the trigger finger does wonders. If I could consistently do it with handguns I would.

[Chuck Haggard]

I've "cured" many of our officers from shooting left (of course with lefties it's the opposite...) with their Glocks via having them get the first crease on the trigger and run it like one would a DA revolver.

[VegasHK]

Not only do I completely agree with this, I have seen it work time and time again in teaching new recruits. We train 60+ new officers at a time, almost everyone is running a polymer framed, striker fired pistol. We see it so much, we refer to it as "Glock Grouping." Glocks tend to shoot low left for almost everyone that shoots them. Almost immediately, when we get the student to insert more trigger finger into the trigger, the groups move right.

My personal "theory" is that the reach from the backstrap to the trigger face is longer than it seems. This causes the finger to not be deep enough. This causes just the tip of the finger to be on the trigger face. When pressure is applied to the trigger to bring it to the rear, it actually causes the shooter to push the weapon left, instead of pulling straight back. More trigger finger applied immediately fixes the issue. I have seen it work many, many times. Too many for it to be a fluke, or coincidence. If the shooter will consistently bury more finger into the Glock trigger, the issue will be resolved.
This is why you see MANY rear sights on Glocks that are drifted to the right.
I REALLY think Pat is correct, as I have seen it first hand while training new shooters, and recruits.

[RJ]

Not only do I completely agree with this, I have seen it work time and time again in teaching new recruits. We train 60+ new officers at a time, almost everyone is running a polymer framed, striker fired pistol. We see it so much, we refer to it as "Glock Grouping." Glocks tend to shoot low left for almost everyone that shoots them. Almost immediately, when we get the student to insert more trigger finger into the trigger, the groups move right.

My personal "theory" is that the reach from the backstrap to the trigger face is longer than it seems. This causes the finger to not be deep enough. This causes just the tip of the finger to be on the trigger face. When pressure is applied to the trigger to bring it to the rear, it actually causes the shooter to push the weapon left, instead of pulling straight back. More trigger finger applied immediately fixes the issue. I have seen it work many, many times. Too many for it to be a fluke, or coincidence. If the shooter will consistently bury more finger into the Glock trigger, the issue will be resolved.
This is why you see MANY rear sights on Glocks that are drifted to the right.
I REALLY think Pat is correct, as I have seen it first hand while training new shooters, and recruits.

Could I follow up on this, as a new shooter with persistent 'low and away' groups?

Would this argue for switching to smaller backstraps/panels (in my case for my VP9) or is it a case of just burying the trigger finger?

[HCM]

U
Could I follow up on this, as a new shooter with persistent 'low and away' groups?

Would this argue for switching to smaller backstraps/panels (in my case for my VP9) or is it a case of just burying the trigger finger?

If you are pushing shots to the left, then it is worth a try. You should have a little bit less of an issue because the trigger face on the VP nine is flatter than the Glock.

[RJ]

U

If you are pushing shots to the left, then it is worth a try. You should have a little bit less of an issue because the trigger face on the VP nine is flatter than the Glock.

Thanks, am up in NC with family this week, but will give this a try next chance.

[HopetonBrown]

Kyle Defoor is another proponent of moar trigger finger.

[GJM]

Mac and Kyle recommending this for just a Glock or all pistols?

[Luke]

If I go to much past the pad then my trigger finger scrapes my support hand causing weird issues.

[Gray222]

Mac and Kyle recommending this for just a Glock or all pistols?

I can only speak for Kyle as I've heard him say he shoots every gun the same way, pistol, rifle, whatever, full finger.

[Steve f]

same here straight rearward is straight rearward

[saints75]

I am going to have try this.

Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk

[NETim]

Mr. McNamara is a fan of the 1911 pistol as well as the Glock -- I wonder if he uses that same trigger technique for the 1911. I typically get a lot of finger on the trigger of revolvers and striker-fired guns, but I use just the pad for the 1911.

Same here. I'm finding just the very tip of my finger is enough on my 1911 guns. The Grocks and Smiths are happiest when I bury my finger just past the first joint.

[JAD]

I have tried this but I'm pretty hard wired to line up the slide with the bones of my forearm. To get the crease or second pad on a Glock trigger it would be pretty cattywompus.

[VegasHK]

Could I follow up on this, as a new shooter with persistent 'low and away' groups?

Would this argue for switching to smaller backstraps/panels (in my case for my VP9) or is it a case of just burying the trigger finger?

I've only seen it with consistently with Glocks. Isolate the low shooting to ensure you aren't doing a "pre-ignition flinch". In other words, make sure you're not pushing/flinching low in anticipation of the recoil. If that's not the case, and you're shooting low left, it may well be the "Glock Grouping." I have not seen it with the VP9's. The trigger reach is most definitely shorter. Try one. They are a fantastic gun.

[Frank R]

This is a prime example of why dry firing is important.

If you pay attention to the front sight and observe how it's moving when squeezing the trigger, make adjustments to your trigger finger position at that time to see what works best for you.

Do that with each different gun you use.

[TGS]

I use a lot of finger on my HK P2000. It has a very curved trigger. No problems.

On the SIG which seems to have more trigger reach, I naturally don't dig as deep. Even still, the trigger is just about at the first joint....definitely not the pad.

It seems to baffle people (atleast in less skilled circles) when I tell them I deliberately dig deep. They say that's not proper....I point to my documented performance vs theirs, and then their head explodes. If people would only spend more time experimenting and pressure testing simple concepts than believing unfounded dogma.....

[BaiHu]

....I point to my documented performance vs theirs, and then their head explodes. If people would only spend more time experimenting and pressure testing simple concepts than believing unfounded dogma.....


^^THIS^^
I just went through this experiment again lately. Today I took a very thin (1.5-3"x8") tapered "popper" looking target at 3 yds and broke it into 4 sections to shoot 5 rounds at each section experimenting with more/less trigger finger.

Section 1 was the circular part of the popper; section 2 was the widest part of the popper just below the circle; section 3 was the thinnest but longest section at the bottom of the popper; and section 4 was above the circle and was the smallest section resembling a thumb nail.

Section 1: I tried as much finger as possible first (I have the smallest straps all around on a P30) and could barely get up to the first crease and I was yanking shots right because my hands/fingers are so short. Still in the circle or edge of the 4-5 o'clock region but definitely a problem.

Section 2: I ran the tip of the finger so I was practically pointing back to myself and I was hitting inconsistently hard right/right/center. Again I was defaulting to the 4-5 area.

Section 3: I tried the pad (where I did most of my previous shooting) where 3 were center/touching with 2 split to left/right.

Section 4: I was between pad and crease and this is where the distribution left/right was 1-1.5 hole width and my vertical was 3 holes width. This is what works best for ME.

To add a hink in the above exercise, I made every shot from a draw, but slow fire. Big eye opener for me; especially when I got back home to confirm I had the small back strap on. Wow, my fingers are short.

[LSP552]

If people would only spend more time experimenting and pressure testing simple concepts than believing unfounded dogma.....

QFT! There are very few things in shooting that are one way only for everyone. Diagnosing a new or problem shooter and guiding them to reach their maximum performance is what separates the best teachers from the average instructor.

[GJM]

When someone thinks they have figured out the one solution for all shooters, they probably have not.

Figure out what works for you, and realize that may well change in the future.

[VegasHK]

QFT! There are very few things in shooting that are one way only for everyone. Diagnosing a new or problem shooter and guiding them to reach their maximum performance is what separates the best teachers from the average instructor.

Big agree👍 The only absolute is that there are no absolutes.

[GRV]

Playing with the Glock bluegun and SIRT. It seems that I can sink more finger into the trigger guard if I go lower on the strong hand grip, due to the geometry of the Glock beavertail area. Going higher on the SH grip on a Glock increases the trigger reach.

For those that run as much finger as possible, do you prioritize getting as high a SH grip as possible first?

Also, I think sinking more finger can have a tendency to cause the SH grip to rotate so that the webbing between the thumb and index finger is not in line with the slide/bore axis. Thoughts? Do you allow any of this, or do you prioritize the alignment of the webbing first?

[NETim]

Playing with the Glock bluegun and SIRT. It seems that I can sink more finger into the trigger guard if I go lower on the strong hand grip, due to the geometry of the Glock beavertail area. Going higher on the SH grip on a Glock increases the trigger reach.

For those that run as much finger as possible, do you prioritize getting as high a SH grip as possible first?

Also, I think sinking more finger can have a tendency to cause the SH grip to rotate so that the webbing between the thumb and index finger is not in line with the slide/bore axis. Thoughts? Do you allow any of this, or do you prioritize the alignment of the webbing first?

The Glock grooves cut in the web of my hand are parallel to my forearm, when I catch a case of the Grooves in a non-GFA'ed gun.

[taadski]

Also, I think sinking more finger can have a tendency to cause the SH grip to rotate so that the webbing between the thumb and index finger is not in line with the slide/bore axis. Thoughts? Do you allow any of this, or do you prioritize the alignment of the webbing first?

Choosing a pistol that fits your hand well (if you're allowed) comes into play here…. But to answer your question, if forced to choose, *I* prioritize finger position/trigger control over any grip concerns. As an example, shooting Glocks, I'm forced to "roll around the corner" a touch in order to get my finger in an optimal location to press it straight to the rear.



t

[GRV]

As an example, shooting Glocks, I'm forced to "roll around the corner" a touch in order to get my finger in an optimal location to press it straight to the rear.


Interesting...that was exactly the situation I was wondering about in my latter question. Fortunately, I think I won't have to sacrifice any grip height nor much "roll around" to get my finger where it needs to be on the trigger. I need to play with this more when I hit the range this week, not that I haven't played with it many times in the past. Side note, sitting here toying with it has further convinced me that the SIRT doesn't really cut it for practicing G17 Gen4 grip, ergos, and trigger control. Different geometry.

It's funny to look at the way basics are generally taught (even by reputable people) in light of this. The first thing generally emphasized is getting some super cool ninja death grip, as high as possible, aligned in x y z ways, as far forward as possible, whatever. Most good instructors will advise students that the right amount of trigger finger is person dependent, but I don't think I've ever seen anyone say it was ok to leave a gap between the top of one's grip and the backstrap/slide, let alone build a grip around the trigger control aspect....when in reality that might be necessary to optimize trigger finger position for some people. Worth noting, one tends to see the "grip gap" behavior a lot in first-time-shooting women shooting Glocks, which makes sense given hand size and geometry.

At the end of the day, being able to consistently and precisely drill holes through what you're aiming at is way more important than slight gains in recoil control. The more I remember that, the more my technique seems to be changing, but it means having to ignore or completely rethink much of the conglomerate of (reputable) tips and advice I've absorbed. Just keeps reaffirming to me that this internet thing can be a bit poisonous and I really need true 1-on-1 instruction from experts.

[PNWTO]

I tried Defoor's advice and am sold, especially at longer ranges. It has cut my splits a little, but that is something new to learn.

[RJ]

Just keeps reaffirming to me that this internet thing can be a bit poisonous and I really need true 1-on-1 instruction from experts.

Yessir.

Unless I see something specific (like this thread) I've pretty much given up trying to get my shooting diagnosed using the internet.

After Tactical Conference in Memphis in March, I'll be taking a defensive pistol course sometime in 2016.

[taadski]

Just remember that at a certain point down the road, it's YOU that has to do the hard work. You can get tons of personal feedback from a wide assortment of great coaches, but eventually it's going to come down to YOU learning to observe and explore the cause and effect in your own shooting.

The old proverb "Give a man a fish, you've fed him for a day. Teach a man to fish and you've fed him for a lifetime" comes to mind. The truly great teachers are the ones that help you learn how to teach yourself.

[YVK]

*I* prioritize finger position/trigger control over any grip concerns. As an example, shooting Glocks, I'm forced to "roll around the corner" a touch in order to get my finger in an optimal location to press it straight to the rear.



t

Definitely. I have to do the same with Berettas to get optimal finger position. My contact point is a side panel vs backstrap with HK. My web is nowhere near in line with gun axis, unlike with HKs where my best position keeps them more or less aligned. Makes no difference in recoil control whatsoever.

[GRV]

Yessir.

Unless I see something specific (like this thread) I've pretty much given up trying to get my shooting diagnosed using the internet.

After Tactical Conference in Memphis in March, I'll be taking a defensive pistol course sometime in 2016.

See you there. If you haven't taken a defensive pistol course, by all means do, but I've found that they generally aren't what's needed by the sort of people coming in at the ground level here at PF. With 6+ people on the range at any time, you're really learning drills, bare basics, and maybe some coaching if you really really suck. Unfortunately, us PF types, even the sucky ones like me, generally don't suck enough to get the sort of coaching we really need, relative to the defensive pistol course population.

I'm glad I took those sorts of classes, as I did learn a lot and it got me to where I am now, but I think where I am now really requires 1-on-1 fundamentals coaching (on top of the existing personal training time commitment). After that, I think I'll better benefit from taking "classes" with a diverse set of instructors and gleaning little nuggets of info from each.


Just remember that at a certain point down the road, it's YOU that has to do the hard work. You can get tons of personal feedback from a wide assortment of great coaches, but eventually it's going to come down to YOU learning to observe and explore the cause and effect in your own shooting.

The old proverb "Give a man a fish, you've fed him for a day. Teach a man to fish and you've fed him for a lifetime" comes to mind. The truly great teachers are the ones that help you learn how to teach yourself.

Absolutely 100%. I'm a big proponent of that, and I definitely think shooting, like many things, is a "personal journey" thing, best mastered through lots of personal trial and error.

That said, teaching yourself how to fish is a more painful and slow process than it needs to be, and has a tendency to get one stuck for a long time down dead-end or harmful roads. Taking group instruction where multiple people don't know how to use the reel doesn't help, and at some point I think one benefits most from being watched alone and told why their cast sucks so much.

[taadski]

That said, teaching yourself how to fish is a more painful and slow process than it needs to be, and has a tendency to get one stuck for a long time down dead-end or harmful roads. Taking group instruction where multiple people don't know how to use the reel doesn't help, and at some point I think one benefits most from being watched alone and told why their cast sucks so much.

Fair. And I'm not advocating, in any fashion, not having some direction/coaching from a mentor or SME. My point was that there isn't any one tid-bit that is going to revolutionize your shooting without you doing the due diligence. The REAL learning takes place as you work through the new info on your own and determine if it's going to plug in well with your needs. Spending the solo time out in the back yard putting in the reps working on your cast, if you will. ;)


t

[RJ]

^^^ Thanks to you both.

I'm more in the 'which end of the rod do you hold' camp. :cool:

But seriously: Somebody said, in order to practice perfectly, you need to learn what perfect practice looks like.

Now that I'm retired, I have more time, but a lot less disposable income, to devote to my hobbies.

Doing firearm training by Internet and Online Forum is doable, and in my case, affordable. But I'm under no illusions I'll be nearly as effective, nearly as quickly, as if I go and take a 'real' training course.

Finding a trainer is not hard; finding a GOOD trainer, is what is tricky.

Given no national standard, or recognizable approved curriculum, or any Learning Objectives with associated terminal Performance Standards (sorry, lapsed into Human Performance Engineering speak), it is a crap shoot.

That is why P-f.com is so valuable. After almost two years of observation here, I'm starting to pick up on what is, and what is not, effective training.

I am now seeing the same names come up, time and again, where good training is discussed.

If I'd listened to the advice here two years ago (get one gun, spend the rest on ammo and training) I'd likely be a lot better shooter now.

Dove - looking forward to meeting you in Memphis. I'm the old short guy in glasses. :cool:


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[GRV]

Fair. And I'm not advocating, in any fashion, not having some direction/coaching from a mentor or SME. My point was that there isn't any one tid-bit that is going to revolutionize your shooting without you doing the due diligence. The REAL learning takes place as you work through the new info on your own and determine if it's going to plug in well with your needs. Spending the solo time out in the back yard putting in the reps working on your cast, if you will. ;)


t

Absolutely. Totally tracking.




Dove - looking forward to meeting you in Memphis. I'm the old short guy in glasses. :cool:


Likewise. Haha, you'll know me when you see me.

[Mr_White]

When someone thinks they have figured out the one solution for all shooters, they probably have not.

Figure out what works for you, and realize that may well change in the future.

I think this ^^^^ is right on.

I used to use more finger several years ago. I think I was intuiting the greater leverage it was getting me. At some point, I tried other placements of the trigger finger and found that using the tip of my finger resulted in more of that mythical ‘when you pull the trigger it moves straight back’ geometry. Less leverage, but still less movement because of better geometry. That also allowed me to get more of my palm behind the backstrap and made my grip into the old ‘when holding the gun with one hand, line up the slide/barrel with the forearm bones.’ I preferred how the gun moved in recoil with that grip too. Like taadski said, hand-to-gun fit plays into this.

I think for a lot of people, this issue with Glocks boils down to leverage vs. geometry and the leverage is paying greater dividends for a lot of people. Doesn’t mean they might not grow out of it at some point. That goes for me – I grew out of it. And I might grow out of where I’m at now. So never say never.

I seem to remember TLG preferring the tip of his finger on Glocks. At this point, so do I. I’ve also seen Ben Stoeger recommend more finger, same as Pat MacNamara and a bunch of others.

[45dotACP]

I like to pick up my gun, fit a laser sight on it, stick a rubber band in the ejection port and work the trigger, but at a certain point, all the dry fire is useless if you don't go turn powder into noise.

I don't really think I get more finger on my Glocks as opposed to my 1911s. Actually, I made the decision to run short triggers on the "Man Gun" after playing around with different setups. I did this because using the knuckle on my 1911 provides more feedback and less "surprise break" which is an expression that I think is misunderstood to mean that you should not know when your gun fires. It doesn't, yet it's one of those misunderstood tropes of the shooting world, much like "slow is smooth, smooth is operator" or something.

It's because of feedback that I shoot the Glock slightly better in terms of slowfire accuracy at the 25. I have a better idea of where I am in the trigger press...not so much that I'm near the end or beginning of the physical motion of the trigger, but that I know I'm not speeding up or slowing down the trigger press, which to me has always been an indication of flinching.

I've been learning a few bullseye tips that have greatly improved my 1911 accuracy at the 25 and one such tip was to use the knuckle and pay attention to the feeling of the flesh compressing and shifting and gauging the speed of the press that way...if any of that makes sense.

When chasing splits at wide open targets, the trigger press changes to a more slaphappy affair and there, the 1911 go pedal shines. You just stomp on it and the bullets go pretty much where the front blob is.

Sent from my VS876 using Tapatalk

[Jeff22]

I took a class with Pat McNamara back in 2012. Very good instructor. VERY focused on accuracy in the drills that we did.

I have been experimenting recently with using more finger on the trigger when shooting Glock pistols. I have reasonably big hands and long fingers. In regard to using lots of finger on the trigger, I'm not sure that it would work for everybody, but I think it is worthy of consideration. I'm not quite sure if I think it's a good idea for me yet or not . . .

[Jeff22]

As HCM posted a few days ago: "Basically if you viewed the Glock trigger from the top, it is much rounder than most triggers, plus you have the trigger safety sticking out from the apex. So a right handed shooter engaging the trigger with the middle of the pad will "teeter - toter" on the trigger safety and engage only the trigger safety and the left side of the trigger . As a result, they pull the trigger to their right rear (4 o'clock) instead of straight to the rear( 6 o'clock. This in turn pushes the muzzle to the shooters 10' o'clock pushing their shots to the left."

I'm going to get some trigger time in over the next few days. I'm going to experiment further with more finger on the trigger and see what happens.

[HCM]

As HCM posted a few days ago: "Basically if you viewed the Glock trigger from the top, it is much rounder than most triggers, plus you have the trigger safety sticking out from the apex. So a right handed shooter engaging the trigger with the middle of the pad will "teeter - toter" on the trigger safety and engage only the trigger safety and the left side of the trigger . As a result, they pull the trigger to their right rear (4 o'clock) instead of straight to the rear( 6 o'clock. This in turn pushes the muzzle to the shooters 10' o'clock pushing their shots to the left."

I'm going to get some trigger time in over the next few days. I'm going to experiment further with more finger on the trigger and see what happens.

Do a search either here in the trigger control / Glock trigger control threads and see if you can find Surfs trigger control video. It really should be a sticky. Definitely experiment. As I said both more finger (joint) and less finger (tip/ hook & curl) work for me - I just found more finger more consistent. If I had smaller hands it might be the opposite.

[Dr. No]

Having tons of rounds through HK guns over the years, when I'm forced to shoot a glock it's hard to make the trigger rotate correctly for me. I always pushed left until I remember to put more finger in - for me it's almost up to the first crease vs on the pad. Centers right up.

Just because it's weird to you doesn't mean it's wrong .... and you should always research who is telling you these things before you start to throw the BS flag.

[shane45]

For me, I use the pad only. I like uniformity and I don't only shoot pistols. So I use the same trigger contact across all platforms. Same as keeping both eyes open be it pistol with irons or the 4-16 scope on my rifle. Since I have the option (not an issued sidearm) I don't think I would own a pistol that would have me use an alternate technique. I am speaking from purely an accuracy perspective. I have taken a few shooters that asked for help and shrunk their groups by pulling finger out of the trigger and focusing on just the pad. To me it seems logical. Long range rifle will show error in technique quickly in terms of accuracy. I haven't come across any advocates of more finger in that venue. I suppose in the realm of pistols the proposed technique may bring a balance of speed and accuracy for heavier trigger pull pistols? All my pistols are custom 1911's or light LEM HK's.

[JHC]

Close friend who has trained extensively with the AMU in recent years , reports they recommend "sinking the finger" on all triggers; long guns included. Very different than old school. FWIW.

[HCM]

Close friend who has trained extensively with the AMU in recent years , reports they recommend "sinking the finger" on all triggers; long guns included. Very different than old school. FWIW.

Re Sinking the finger on long guns - I've found this particularly useful if you are using a stock GI trigger, especially the 3 round burst units. Geissele triggers they are not.

[HCM]

For me, I use the pad only. I like uniformity and I don't only shoot pistols. So I use the same trigger contact across all platforms. Same as keeping both eyes open be it pistol with irons or the 4-16 scope on my rifle. Since I have the option (not an issued sidearm) I don't think I would own a pistol that would have me use an alternate technique. I am speaking from purely an accuracy perspective. I have taken a few shooters that asked for help and shrunk their groups by pulling finger out of the trigger and focusing on just the pad. To me it seems logical. Long range rifle will show error in technique quickly in terms of accuracy. I haven't come across any advocates of more finger in that venue. I suppose in the realm of pistols the proposed technique may bring a balance of speed and accuracy for heavier trigger pull pistols? All my pistols are custom 1911's or light LEM HK's.

Don't most long range shooters us the finger tip aka "Hook and Curl"?

[shane45]

The question indicates I did a poor job articulating. I indeed use more towards the tip. Opposite my finger nail.

[Lomshek]

Don't most long range shooters us the finger tip aka "Hook and Curl"?

A lot still do but (I think) whether that works depends on trigger reach and grip fit.

Here's my inarticulate explanation - To get the most out of the traditional first pad positioning you need to have a grip that properly positions your finger on the trigger for best leverage when on the first pad.

[GJM]

Here is Vogel's finger position, courtesy of an older PF thread.


Exactly, in his video he explains that he likes to get his support hand as high as possible. I don't recall him mentioning the placement of the support hand index finger in the video at all. Also notice how far forward his support hand is on the bottom of the trigger guard.

Another pic:
http://imageshack.us/a/img198/8858/vogel2.jpg

[Chuck Haggard]

Aaaaaaaand, the minute I tell people I sink the trigger finger to the first joint and it works pretty good for me, I start testing the new SD9 and find that this makes me pull shots to the left rather badly, flat on the trigger face with the center of the pad works perfectly.


Gun to hand fit is SOOOOOOOOOOOOOO underappreciated nowadays. Back in the wheelgun days when people could order stocks to fit, or even fit to their hands, this sort of thing was given way more thought.

[TCinVA]

Aaaaaaaand, the minute I tell people I sink the trigger finger to the first joint and it works pretty good for me, I start testing the new SD9 and find that this makes me pull shots to the left rather badly, flat on the trigger face with the center of the pad works perfectly.


Gun to hand fit is SOOOOOOOOOOOOOO underappreciated nowadays. Back in the wheelgun days when people could order stocks to fit, or even fit to their hands, this sort of thing was given way more thought.

This.

I have different trigger finger placement for different pistols as necessitated by the way my hand interfaces with the gun. If I use a lot of trigger finger on a Glock, my natural predilection for lateral push on the Glock is magnified considerably. To shoot one well I need to do exactly the opposite and get as little trigger finger on the gun as possible. I'm actually only on just a little more than half the trigger...just enough to depress the trigger button and no more. That's the only way I get enough clearance between my trigger finger and the frame of the gun to stop push.

Perhaps I'm unusual, but I often find that putting more finger on the trigger on some guns can actually stop me from completing the trigger pull because my finger hits the frame before it's fully depressed the trigger.

The key lesson here is experimentation and practice. One of the valuable tidbits I picked up from Vogel was working against a dead trigger as a diagnostic method and, at least on the Glock, it works a treat. Do a trigger press on a dead trigger just like you would on a live round and watch how the gun reacts. It will often show you things that are invisible otherwise. That tendency for lateral push is one of the reasons why I dislike the Glock.

[VegasHK]

Chuck, may I ask Sir, are you a left handed shooter? Reason I ask is you said that you were pulling shots left. I wonder if you're a lefty, then you sink your finger too deep, do you pull left on THAT particular gun? For me, on a Glock, shooting right handed, if I don't sink my finger I get a push left. Just curious.

ETA: this is why I love this site. Professionals talking logically about training issues and different gun handling techniques. I truly feel like this site offers something SO many sites lack: articulate members that can discuss and share info instead of "my .40 is the bestest and you're not" ��

[runcible]

Replying to the original topic in general:

I've had the best effects by taking the time to pare the trigger finger down to distinct indexes: the nearer edge of the trigger pressing against the middle of the fingertip, the nearer edge of the trigger pressing against the crease between the distal finger segments, the trigger centered on the crease between the distal finger segments, and the far edge of the trigger pressing against the crease between the distal finger segments; for instance.

Onto a smaller target, at a close-enough distance so as not to introduce sight\focus issues (ie. Dot Torture target at 3-5 yd); label the first circles with which indexing will be used. Mark and number the indexes onto the shooter's triggerfinger if needed, via ballpoint ben. With no timelimit, the shooter must then fire half a magazine into the marked circles, using the appropriate triggerfinger\trigger indexing for each. Results will be observed, those indexes with poor showings can be discarded outright. The target will then be reused to verify the most desirable indexing or tie-break desirable indexings. A full-size target at distance (15-25yd) will then be used to confirm functionality. Afterwards, tactile reference points will be identified between the trigger finger and the frame or slide of the weapon, to allow the shooter to condition and recognize proper hand-placement from the drawstroke itself, prior to actuating the trigger.

Not everyone has larger hands and runs a 1911; this methodology is for everyone else. I believe that identifying proper trigger finger placement is paramount to the firing grip, and I build everything from that foremost indexing on back.

[Sir Guy]

I carried a third generation Glock 17 until my agency switched to fourth generation for issue. I found with the third generation guns I used less trigger finger, with only the pad across the trigger face, with consistent results.

However, when we switched to fourth generation guns, my shots went a little left when I kept that same finger position on the trigger. What changed is that when I went to fourth generation, I kept off any backstraps, so my trigger reach was a little less.

So when finishing qual runs, my group would be the size of a fist but an inch or two left of center A. I moved my trigger finger a bit deeper, to the first crease as they say, and my group went back to center.

So I agree with the guys who said it's not one size fits all; for me the change in trigger reach meant I needed to change the depth of the finger to keep my results.

[taadski]

Really good stuff in here.

Runcible, I like the idea of breaking it down for folks/students in the fashion you did. It provides some boundaries and the potential for quantifying things. I might only add a "tip of the finger" reference point in your scale perhaps? I know that for my combination of grip and hand size, in order to press the trigger sans any front sight movement (especially on most striker guns) I'm either of the "hook and curl," very tip of the finger variety OR something approaching your "nearer edge of the trigger pressing against the crease."

One thing that continues to astound me is how much I can get away with regarding trigger control errors by using a strong two handed grip. Especially in slow fire/precision mode. Diagnostically I think that's really important because folks may be misled some if that's the only way they're evaluating things. As discussed elsewhere on the forum, good grip can overcome a lot. That said, I'd like my mechanics as well developed as they can be, as I don't want to have to rely on an excellent platform (grip) to be able to accomplish precision.

As "old school" as it might be, I like Hackathorn's age-old exercise of balancing a coin or a casing on the front sight while pressing the trigger. It provides very immediate discernible feedback. And if used in conjunction with some parameters like Runcible provided, it can be really valuable for helping suss out what works best for given hand/grip-size combinations. It also takes elements of vision and sight alignment out of play temporarily and provides pure trigger mechanics feedback.


t

[runcible]

Taadski,

Appreciate the reminder - one-handed shooting, preferably with either hand, is an additional validater and/or tie-breaker. Mea culpa for the omission. A strong and torqued two-handed grip can definitely obscure some trigger issues.

On the tip of the finger, I'm biased by my own experience and gun/hand combination, which is where a good bit of the above sprung from. After the center-pad/outboard-trigger-edge combo, I'm unable to apply sufficient leverage or gain sufficient traction to actuate my work gun's stock DA trigger; that doesn't inherently preclude it for other hands on other weapons, though.

When I started with the Job, and ran a stock weapon for work; the middle knuckle of my shooting hand's thumb was just outboard of the backstrap's vertical median, and I was actuating the trigger from decocked/rest with the edge of the trigger just between the middle of the fingertip and the first crease. It can be done, and you can meet some reasonably stringent standards with that; but thankfully I have managed to shrink the effective reach issues of that weapon in 3 different ways, since. I hope that clarifies my frame of reference in this.

[taadski]

I hope that clarifies my frame of reference in this.

Just saw this. My "notifications" haven't been working for PF this week...

Anyway, yep. Good copy. And just to be clear, my default has become a closer to the crease type style for everything. Mostly because I can't shoot our issued DA/SA guns worth a darn with the very tip of the finger. FWIW, it sounds like we have VERY different sized hands. ;)


t

[GJM]

Imagine how much better a Glock shooter Robert Vogel could be, if only he used more finger on the trigger.

[Mr_White]

Imagine how much better a Glock shooter Robert Vogel could be, if only he used more finger on the trigger.

Doesn't look like he's got a lot of finger in there, does it?

---

Geometry, leverage, gun, hand. How will they add up? I don't know, but pay attention, and good luck with all of it. :)

[taadski]

Imagine how much better a Glock shooter Robert Vogel could be, if only he used more finger on the trigger.

Point is it doesn't matter what Vogel does. Or what Stoeger or Manny or Robbie, et al do. It matters what YOU can do to get YOUR trigger to the rear without moving the gun (ad nauseum).

[JHC]

Imagine how much better a Glock shooter Robert Vogel could be, if only he used more finger on the trigger.

I imagine what kind of Glock squeezer I could be if I could close the same CoCs he can.

[GJM]

I imagine what kind of Glock squeezer I could be if I could close the same CoCs he can.

Interesting question as to why Robert does so well -- grip strength or trigger pulling ability. My guess is both, and thinking his technique is primarily strength probably underestimates his trigger finesse.


When someone thinks they have figured out the one solution for all shooters, they probably have not.

Figure out what works for you, and realize that may well change in the future.


Point is it doesn't matter what Vogel does. Or what Stoeger or Manny or Robbie, et al do. It matters what YOU can do to get YOUR trigger to the rear without moving the gun (ad nauseum).

Think I said that in the above post like 5 pages ago. Definitely agree with you.

[JHC]

Interesting question as to why Robert does so well -- grip strength or trigger pulling ability. My guess is both, and thinking his technique is primarily strength probably underestimates his trigger finesse.





Think I said that in the above post like 5 pages ago. Definitely agree with you.

That it is individual is self evident. I've no doubt that great hand strength is a major component to a perfect press on a Glock with a finger tip. As is hand size and neural attributes.

The premise of the whole thread (from the vid) is IF you have this persistent problem, try sinking the finger. Not Vogel needs to sink his finger.

[GJM]

That it is individual is self evident. I've no doubt that great hand strength is a major component to a perfect press on a Glock with a finger tip. As is hand size and neural attributes.

The premise of the whole thread (from the vid) is IF you have this persistent problem, try sinking the finger. Not Vogel needs to sink his finger.

I respectfully disagree. I just watched the video and Mac says a bullseye competitor told him to sink more trigger, and that is what he has done ever since. No discussion that different folks ought to figure out what works for them, and that might involve more or less trigger.

[JSGlock34]

To be fair to Mr. McNamara, his essay on the subject that appeared on Soldier Systems (http://soldiersystems.net/2013/10/26/gunfighter-moment-pat-mcnamara-14/) states...

I’m not suggesting that I am right and that this is law. I will add though, that if you do what you’ve always done, you’ll get what you’ve always gotten.

[JHC]

I respectfully disagree. I just watched the video and Mac says a bullseye competitor told him to sink more trigger, and that is what he has done ever since. No discussion that different folks ought to figure out what works for them, and that might involve more or less trigger.


Not exactly. The bullseye dude gave him that advice because he specifically stated the problem he was having doing it his way. I have the distinct impression that Pat Mac does not spoon feed. I believe he assumes if you are drilling the X out of your B8s at speed and distance, you don't have to look for a change.

[Dagga Boy]

Aaaaaaaand, the minute I tell people I sink the trigger finger to the first joint and it works pretty good for me, I start testing the new SD9 and find that this makes me pull shots to the left rather badly, flat on the trigger face with the center of the pad works perfectly.


Gun to hand fit is SOOOOOOOOOOOOOO underappreciated nowadays. Back in the wheelgun days when people could order stocks to fit, or even fit to their hands, this sort of thing was given way more thought.

This is huge. Many of today's higher capacity guns really do not fit a lot of folks hands really well. Hand size is very individual as well as specifc reach with the hand itself. Sort of like sights and individual eyesight....there is no right answer, definitely wrong answers, with your answer somewhere in there. 1911's tend to be a great fit for most folks and encourage less use of the entire hand in the trigger press, as well as having a trigger that mechanically moves straight to the rear. Compare that to guns that encourage a coke can grio and use of the entire hand. Lots of issues here.


Having tons of rounds through HK guns over the years, when I'm forced to shoot a glock it's hard to make the trigger rotate correctly for me. I always pushed left until I remember to put more finger in - for me it's almost up to the first crease vs on the pad. Centers right up.

Just because it's weird to you doesn't mean it's wrong .... and you should always research who is telling you these things before you start to throw the BS flag.

I can see what Mac is teaching.....as I actually took the class and got it first hand. I did it with a p30 LEM. Like you I don't find it as successful with the HK's. It seems to work better with the Glocks. I have also found sinking the finger when shooting support hand only seems to help me more than all the time. I learned a long time ago you need to tailor your grip to each gun and its controls and how they are placed and operated. This does take some open mind work to find what it is best.

[JMS]

I respectfully disagree. I just watched the video and Mac says a bullseye competitor told him to sink more trigger, and that is what he has done ever since. No discussion that different folks ought to figure out what works for them, and that might involve more or less trigger.

Consider that he's ginned up more than one video over time, atop howevermany hours providing instruction...THAT vid is a single, infinitesimal vignette into his body of work.

He's not ecumenical about sinking the trigger finger, he's ecumenical about students being willing to give it a try as a means of correcting a certain set of verifiable symptoms, it having paid off for him under the a certain set of circumstances. I can tell you in no uncertain terms, that if you're at a TAPS class or similar, finger-tipping the trigger, and getting your hits at speed, you'd not be told to sink your finger because "Mac Says."

[GRV]

I have also found sinking the finger when shooting support hand only seems to help me more than all the time.

This.

I've been experimenting at the range with the whole finger placement thing lately. I haven't been getting a whole ton of consistent results, and I suspect the fact that first joint position occasionally feels new/awkward to me causes me to throw a shot here or there. However, what I have noticed, is that it helps with my SH/WH shooting...especially WH.

Here's the theory I came up with last night:

The pad of my index finger is pretty long. If I center the pad on the trigger, I can surround the curvature of the Glock trigger, thus eliminating issues due to pushing on only a portion of the curvature. Sinking to the first joint won't add anything to that, and I run the risk of frame contact. (The difference in finger geometry during the pull is up for debate). For some people, I imagine they really need to sink in far to wrap that curvature and reap those benefits.

However, strong and weak hand only, I suffer from a lot of wobbly grip weakness. Here, I notice a benefit to sinking to the first joint, and I think it is because it gives me more strength, allowing me to pull without shaking those hand/forearm muscles as much. Two hands, that strength benefit just isn't relevant.

[GJM]

In my experience, support hand with a Glock, it is very important to prep the crap out of the trigger, or don't prep at all and work it in one motion. I think this falls into art and not science, will be individual, and will continue to evolve with your experience.

[Mr_White]

I got some pictures that show something I mentioned earlier in the thread and have talked about a little bit with Luke in his training journal. If I sink much more finger, like up to the first joint, it requires a slight shift in my grip toward what is known as the "h-grip." (Think of a small hand with a large gripped gun and how that person has to adjust to reach/press the trigger.) It's not a total h-grip, like you get with a small hand holding a Gen3 G21, but it's a step in that direction, and it affects how the backstrap is seated in my palm, which in turn affects how the gun moves in recoil. I prefer how the gun moves (more straight up and down) when the backstrap is fully seated in my palm.

Here is a picture of me gripping my gun my normal way, so that I'd be pressing the trigger with the tip of my finger (I can also reach with the pad, but tend toward the tip because I think I get more gain from the geometry than loss from the reduced leverage):

https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1520/24152567721_41e173e6c6_n.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/CNhdVp)20160107_060608 (https://flic.kr/p/CNhdVp) by OrigamiAK (https://www.flickr.com/photos/52790396@N08/), on Flickr

Here is a picture of me gripping my gun, but with the grip shifted enough that I can get the first joint of my finger onto the trigger - notice the difference in where the backstrap is seated in my palm:

https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1720/24152560181_b3bab2b9e5_n.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/CNhbFp)20160107_060616 (https://flic.kr/p/CNhbFp) by OrigamiAK (https://www.flickr.com/photos/52790396@N08/), on Flickr

Here is a screen shot from the video of Pat MacNamara showing more finger on the trigger:

https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1672/23606866334_8244d0a157.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/BY4mUN)PatMacFinger (https://flic.kr/p/BY4mUN) by OrigamiAK (https://www.flickr.com/photos/52790396@N08/), on Flickr

I think Pat MacNamara's grip looks a lot like mine in the second picture. This is not to say that he, or anyone who finds more finger more useful than less finger, is wrong. Not my point or assertion at all. Simply that there are more factors involved than leverage (which I and a bunch of people already said), and I wanted to post a few pictures that I think illustrate the grip change I'm talking about.

[CCT125US]

Excellent pics, and that illustrates the subtle changes very well. You can see the difference in the exposed grip area, as well as the amount the pinky is wrapped around. Now imagine if Gabe had stubby fingers, his 2nd pic would look similar to pic 1. Oh the minutiae of shooting.

[Mr_White]

Oh the minutiae of shooting.

No kidding!

[taadski]

I use one handed shooting as an evaluation method for what works well without the additional stability afforded by the support hand. If I'm able to press the trigger well one handed with a given trigger finger position, why would I want to modify that with two hands just because I can get away with it?

I can get away with pretty much whatever trigger position and still get very little sight movement in slow fire with a good two handed grip. It only starts to manifest as a problem as speed increases or under less ideal grip circumstances. My point is, if a given trigger finger position works well with only one hand, perhaps it's a better solution two handed too?


Edit: Dove, your post is what provoked my thoughts. Forgot to quote.

[JHC]

I use one handed shooting as an evaluation method for what works well without the additional stability afforded by the support hand. If I'm able to press the trigger well one handed with a given trigger finger position, why would I want to modify that with two hands just because I can get away with it?

I can get away with pretty much whatever trigger position and still get very little sight movement in slow fire with a good two handed grip. It only starts to manifest as a problem as speed increases or under less ideal grip circumstances. My point is, if a given trigger finger position works well with only one hand, perhaps it's a better solution two handed too?


Edit: Dove, your post is what provoked my thoughts. Forgot to quote.

THAT! Only fairly recently did I start to "sink" my finger freestyle as much as I did when shooting SHO/WHO. I am very happy with the consistency.

Now for another wrench, my finger is long enough to sink it across the trigger to the crease or just past it, without doing the H grip Mr. White illustrated. But, when I do my trigger finger makes contact with the frame on that strong side outside of the gun.

Recall that is one of Surf's recommendations to NEVER NEVER do. However I have seen nothing but improvement across a range of shooting tasks (3x5 walkback, The Test, PistolNOW, D1 to 12 yard plates, D1 to 25 yard headbox in 2-3 sec etc) this way (trigger finger sunk with frame contact) so I'm not sweating it.

[GRV]

I use one handed shooting as an evaluation method for what works well without the additional stability afforded by the support hand. If I'm able to press the trigger well one handed with a given trigger finger position, why would I want to modify that with two hands just because I can get away with it?

I can get away with pretty much whatever trigger position and still get very little sight movement in slow fire with a good two handed grip. It only starts to manifest as a problem as speed increases or under less ideal grip circumstances. My point is, if a given trigger finger position works well with only one hand, perhaps it's a better solution two handed too?


Edit: Dove, your post is what provoked my thoughts. Forgot to quote.

I'm glad you posted that, because I asked myself exactly the same question. It seemed ridiculous to me, and it's not something I'm ready to start doing without having a good reason to back it up. So, here's what I came up with after thinking about it for a while:

Positions have benefits and drawbacks. Sinking more finger in gives you more leverage, but as Mr. White points out and I mentioned earlier, it messes up getting a perfect grip and thus reduces recoil control for some people. Sinking more finger also can allow one to wrap the curvature of the Glock trigger, thus avoiding certain accuracy issues. At the same time, sinking more finger can lead to frame contact a la what Surf talks about, leading to other accuracy issues.

For me: I do not get the benefits of wrapping the trigger curvature, I can do that with the pad. Going to the first joint, however, does cause me to shift my grip very slightly and adds much more trigger-finger frame contact, two problems I don't have using the center of the pad. So, the only real (theoretical) benefit it gives me, as far as I can tell, is leverage.

One-handed, that leverage is a huge benefit to me. I have often been -4 or -5 on Dots 5 and 8 in Dot Torture at 5 yards. Last night I was -2 and -1 at 7 yards, even with a bunch of presses that felt bad. I attribute that to sinking the finger. My recoil control sucks one-handed so much that any losses there are irrelevant.

Two-handed, I haven't been able to develop extremely consistent results between the pad and the first joint. If they were truly the same, then I'd agree with you and say run the same thing all the time. But, I have felt myself pull a few shots with the first joint that I attributed to that position. I still need to better convince myself that that's not just due to the awkwardness. But, even if that's not the case, I'm compromising my grip.



tl;dr, I'm not completely sold yet, but I think the tradeoffs work out for me such that I benefit from using the first joint SH/WH, and that it is strictly worse 2-handed. Moreover, for the sake of the abstract argument here, even if I end up convincing myself that that's not true for me, I am now pretty thoroughly convinced that it could be true for someone.

[Backspin]

The ideal trigger finger position is one the allows you to press the trigger straight back to the rear most consistently.

Ideal trigger finger position depends on:
-hand size
-the gun
-how much shooting hand wraps around gun (your technique)

You change any one of those variables and the ideal trigger finger position changes too. I use slightly more finger on a Glock 19 than a Sig 226 for example.

I'm issued a Sig P226 for work. I have small hands. The ideal location for MY finger on the Sig is tip of the finger. I use that whether shooting two handed or one handed. I don't need extra leverage for the double action press. As long as I have my finger position right, I can still be aggressive on the trigger and get my hits.

[GJM]

The ideal trigger finger position is one the allows you to press the trigger straight back to the rear most consistently.

Ideal trigger finger position depends on:
-hand size
-the gun
-how much shooting hand wraps around gun (your technique)

You change any one of those variables and the ideal trigger finger position changes too. I use slightly more finger on a Glock 19 than a Sig 226 for example.


I would add "type of shooting" to your list. The finger position that works for shooting a B8 slow fire might not be best for action shooting.

[Backspin]

I would disagree. I used the same technique to score a 290 on the FBI bullseye course as I do to shoot sub 3 second bill drills from concealment. A straight to the rear press that minimizes disturbance of the sights is the same, whether slow fire or at speed.

I would actually substitute "finger position" with "gun" as a more accurate statement in my experience. For me, certain guns/trigger setups allow for more consistent accuracy, like ringing steel at 100 yards. Other guns allow for better shooting at speed.

[YVK]

I use one handed shooting as an evaluation method for what works well without the additional stability afforded by the support hand. If I'm able to press the trigger well one handed with a given trigger finger position, why would I want to modify that with two hands just because I can get away with it? .

T., I did it too and recently stopped. I was setting my finger position on Beretta using one handed, both right and left hands, wall drill in double action. Used the same logic, if I can pull 10 lbs with one hand and not disturb...
Ended up realizing that this has led to a suboptimal, too deep, finger position for SA shots. Wasnt immediately apparent with big targets like at Rogers or IDPA, but when I started to shoot more dots and 25 yard drills, it became clear. I am now learning a DA shot with less finger.

[taadski]

T., I did it too and recently stopped. I was setting my finger position on Beretta using one handed, both right and left hands, wall drill in double action. Used the same logic, if I can pull 10 lbs with one hand and not disturb...
Ended up realizing that this has led to a suboptimal, too deep, finger position for SA shots. Wasnt immediately apparent with big targets like at Rogers or IDPA, but when I started to shoot more dots and 25 yard drills, it became clear. I am now learning a DA shot with less finger.

Y,

Just to be clear. I wan't making any individual suggestions for one trigger location or another. Only that *I* advocate vetting one's chosen trigger technique one-handed and that if it doesn't work well there, perhaps that's an indication that it's not ideal for two-handed shooting either.

For DA/SA shooters, I actually often suggest folks work backward from a known and established single action press. So as to familiarize them with where their DA press needs to start in order to finish there, if that makes sense. And finger position-wise, that may be the finger tip, on the pad or in the crease depending on the shooter/platform.


t

[deputyG23]

The ideal trigger finger position is one the allows you to press the trigger straight back to the rear most consistently.

Ideal trigger finger position depends on:
-hand size
-the gun
-how much shooting hand wraps around gun (your technique)

You change any one of those variables and the ideal trigger finger position changes too. I use slightly more finger on a Glock 19 than a Sig 226 for example.

I'm issued a Sig P226 for work. I have small hands. The ideal location for MY finger on the Sig is tip of the finger. I use that whether shooting two handed or one handed. I don't need extra leverage for the double action press. As long as I have my finger position right, I can still be aggressive on the trigger and get my hits.
I have the opposite scenario. I am issued a G23 for work and shoot a Sig P228 for range fun. My finger placement on the Glock is exactly what I did on the K-frame Smiths I started with. First joint of the finger. I do the same thing with the DA pull of the SIG and get a good hit and almost always jerk the SA shot that follows. Then there is the long reset which should not be an issue, but is. Have been sorely tempted to either convert it to DAO or buy a P250 to keep things somewhat consistent.
If I really wanted to be a TDA masochist, I could break out the 92FC with the stock mainspring...

[Beat Trash]

I use one handed shooting as an evaluation method for what works well without the additional stability afforded by the support hand. If I'm able to press the trigger well one handed with a given trigger finger position, why would I want to modify that with two hands just because I can get away with it?

I can get away with pretty much whatever trigger position and still get very little sight movement in slow fire with a good two handed grip. It only starts to manifest as a problem as speed increases or under less ideal grip circumstances. My point is, if a given trigger finger position works well with only one hand, perhaps it's a better solution two handed too?

Edit: Dove, your post is what provoked my thoughts. Forgot to quote.

Short answer, yes...

I will even go so far as to use my non-dominant hand when determining what works well for me with a new pistol type. It's less "educated" as my dominant hand and I find it harder to compensate for something and I get a more realistic "feel" for grip size and finger placement.

[runcible]

Positions have benefits and drawbacks. Sinking more finger in gives you more leverage, but as Mr. White points out and I mentioned earlier, it messes up getting a perfect grip and thus reduces recoil control for some people. Sinking more finger also can allow one to wrap the curvature of the Glock trigger, thus avoiding certain accuracy issues. At the same time, sinking more finger can lead to frame contact a la what Surf talks about, leading to other accuracy issues.


How can one worry after recoil, if one does not first actuate the trigger? If one is actuating the trigger, why not do it in the most effective manner to reduce liability (in not hitting non-targets) and accomplish goals (strike the target in an intended and desirable manner)?

It's a given that there will be some compromise for most; it is something I've worked with for half of my professional life. But to prioritize recoil-control over trigger-operation seems unusual given the causal relationship in-play.

Extra to add: I would ask, "what is the perfect grip?" Is it a particular alignment and enwrapment of the hands about the weapon, requiring particular indexing and relativity? Alternatively, is it the grip that allows for the best empirically measurable and repeatable affects at the terminal; as considered by predilections of (split) time(s), precision, and accuracy?

[GRV]

How can one worry after recoil, if one does not first actuate the trigger? If one is actuating the trigger, why not do it in the most effective manner to reduce liability (in not hitting non-targets) and accomplish goals (strike the target in an intended and desirable manner)?

It's a given that there will be some compromise for most; it is something I've worked with for half of my professional life. But to prioritize recoil-control over trigger-operation seems unusual given the causal relationship in-play.

Extra to add: I would ask, "what is the perfect grip?" Is it a particular alignment and enwrapment of the hands about the weapon, requiring particular indexing and relativity? Alternatively, is it the grip that allows for the best empirically measurable and repeatable affects at the terminal; as considered by predilections of (split) time(s), precision, and accuracy?

I think something got lost in the pixels.

I'm on board with you. In fact, I had an earlier post in this thread to that effect, remarking on how trigger control ought be more important than recoil control in firearms instruction.

The moral of my most recent post was that I think I have seen some evidence that I shoot better 2-handed with the pad and 1-handed with the first joint. The rest of the post was just me trying to explain how I was able to make sense out of how that could be true.

[GRV]

Here's my attempt at trying to making my point clearer and shorter:


Say a hypothetical person shoots 2-handed just as accurately using the tip as they do with the first joint, however using the first joint forces an "h-grip" as Mr. White coined and causes them to suffer in recoil control. It would seem pretty obvious to me that, barring other circumstances, they should shoot with the tip. Now, say that same person shoots way more accurately 1-handed with the first joint than the tip, with insignificant variance in speed/recoil control. Some may disagree, but I'd say it makes sense for them to shoot with the first joint when shooting 1-handed, barring other circumstances.

The 2-handed and 1-handed shooting scenarios are different problems with different variables and different tradeoffs. There are circumstances that can make the above story true for someone. I think there is some value to having one technique for both scenarios, but that value may get outweighed by other values.

[LSP552]

The 2-handed and 1-handed shooting scenarios are different problems with different variables and different tradeoffs. There are circumstances that can make the above story true for someone. I think there is some value to having one technique for both scenarios, but that value may get outweighed by other values.

For me personally, and speaking from a defense perspective, I don't want different trigger placement for 2 hand, one hand, left hand, right hand, etc. I don't think (insert personal opinion only) the juice is worth the potential squeeze. I want as much consistency as possible in my gun handling so I can focus on problem solving.

I will use the analogy of different finger placement on TDA guns. Some folks claim, and no doubt it's probably the truth, they shoot better with different placement on SA than DA. But, I'm unaware of any instructor with experience in teaching DA/SA advocating repositioning the finger mid stream. It's just one more thing to remember and execute under stress.

[taadski]

I agree with LSP552. We were typing at the same time apparently. :p

Not to dog pile, but remember, the goal of all of this at the end of the day is to have your skills at as much of a pre-conscious level as possible. I think this is true from a defensive standpoint, a competitive shooting standpoint, and everything in between, frankly. I'd personally have concerns over having multiple trigger finger positions. But perhaps even more so, I'd have concerns having to change your grip going from one to the other.

The DA/SA analogy is a good one. I find that there sometimes needs to be a compromise for some shooters between where they best press the DA and where they best press the SA. The concept of repositioning the finger in between shots doesn't hold water, IMO. And I feel the same way about the prospect of having to re-adjust one's grip to shoot one-handed.

And your pixels read just fine, btw. ;)

[Mr_White]

How can one worry after recoil, if one does not first actuate the trigger?


Here's my attempt at trying to making my point clearer and shorter:


Say a hypothetical person shoots 2-handed just as accurately using the tip as they do with the first joint, however using the first joint forces an "h-grip" as Mr. White coined and causes them to suffer in recoil control. It would seem pretty obvious to me that, barring other circumstances, they should shoot with the tip. Now, say that same person shoots way more accurately 1-handed with the first joint than the tip, with insignificant variance in speed/recoil control. Some may disagree, but I'd say it makes sense for them to shoot with the first joint when shooting 1-handed, barring other circumstances.

dove said basically what I was going to say.

I absolutely would prioritize being able to fire accurate individual shots, never mind the time, over better recoil control/sight movement with poor accuracy. That's how the h-grip comes into being - small hand using large gun, that's frequently what happens in order to be able to shoot accurately. (BTW I did not coin the term 'h-grip' and I don't know who did.)

I can shoot accurately with better geometry and worse leverage using the tip of my finger. I can shoot accurately with worse geometry and better leverage using the first joint of my finger. But I prefer the way the gun moves when gripping the gun in a way that doesn't allow me to get the first joint on the trigger.

[runcible]

I think something got lost in the pixels.

I'm on board with you. In fact, I had an earlier post in this thread to that effect, remarking on how trigger control ought be more important than recoil control in firearms instruction.

The moral of my most recent post was that I think I have seen some evidence that I shoot better 2-handed with the pad and 1-handed with the first joint. The rest of the post was just me trying to explain how I was able to make sense out of how that could be true.

I follow, dude! I apologize if my tone was too aggressive; I didn't follow the afore transition.

It is an interesting question, as you just presented it. Stepping back from the engagement of the trigger, my hand placement is confirmed or denied by where/how my trigger finger comes to rest as the pistol clears the holster. That is built from repetitions to that particular indexing. At that point, it's non-diagnostic; the choice to draw has been made, whether to retention/ready/presentation, but there is no divergence in there for drawing in preparation for a different trigger index. Mind you, this is referential to just myself.

Having two hands on the gun allows us to get away with quite a bit by the trigger finger; having only one hand on the gun calls for us to consider the minutiae quite a bit more.

Before I can really consider running different finger/trigger indexes, I'd have to consider asserting divergent grips before the drawstroke has even begun, and at what point I'd choose and commit to either.

[GRV]

I agree with LSP552. We were typing at the same time apparently. :p

Not to dog pile, but remember, the goal of all of this at the end of the day is to have your skills at as much of a pre-conscious level as possible. I think this is true from a defensive standpoint, a competitive shooting standpoint, and everything in between, frankly. I'd personally have concerns over having multiple trigger finger positions. But perhaps even more so, I'd have concerns having to change your grip going from one to the other.

The DA/SA analogy is a good one. I find that there sometimes needs to be a compromise for some shooters between where they best press the DA and where they best press the SA. The concept of repositioning the finger in between shots doesn't hold water, IMO. And I feel the same way about the prospect of having to re-adjust one's grip to shoot one-handed.

And your pixels read just fine, btw. ;)


Agreed re the value in having one technique for both scenarios. That said, I don't think anything in shooting has infinite value and I think there can always be circumstances that cause anything with value to get outweighed. I think the shooting community culturally has the appearance of assigning infinite value to too many things. For example, getting a high grip to reduce recoil control.

I think the DA/SA thing is really another boat from the 1-hand 2-hand thing: talking about making precise changes immediately after your first shot and before your second is really worlds away from talking about how one chooses to shoot one-handed vs two-handed. For example, many of us don't bat an eye when people choose to align the sights at a .45 degree angle for one-handed shooting. Is that not breaking all the hand-eye coordination? All the consistency we build with 2-handed sight pictures? In any event, yea, the DA/SA situation is similar, insofar as there is some value to doing it different and some value towards doing it the same. Which way it works out is going to depend on the individual, but I think the case for doing it the same is even stronger there.

The feeling of shooting one-handed vs. two-handed is so different that I have a hard time buying that the value of keeping techniques exceedingly similar is particularly high. However, let's forget strong-handed shooting for a minute and go back to what nyeti said that originally sparked my post: using the first-joint (or maximally sinking) only when shooting weak-handed. For me, I think it feels more natural and automatic to sink fully when shooting left handed, and it feels much more automatic to use the pad when shooting two-handed. So, trying to engrain "the same" technique would require me breaking pre-conscious tendencies. The bottom line is, there's very little "the same" about shooting weak-hand only. The weak hand is pre-consciously accustomed to a support-hand grip, yet I don't think anyone would argue we should modify weak-hand shooting grips to be more like support-hand grips. The tradeoff just doesn't pay out there.

Going back to the DA/SA case, it's actually the case that the DA and SA triggers have different trigger reaches, so it could conceivably be the case that it is natural and automatic for someone to use two different positions, especially if they use the flip-and-press method where their finger comes off the trigger between shots. (Albeit, in this case I imagine using the tip for DA and sinking for SA is what would be natural...i.e. opposite the argument, but whatever, that's irrelevant to the point.)

(It goes without saying that the above is not intended to come off as an attack or retaliation, and I definitely don't take anything about this conversation personally.)

[GRV]

I follow, dude! I apologize if my tone was too aggressive; I didn't follow the afore transition.

It is an interesting question, as you just presented it. Stepping back from the engagement of the trigger, my hand placement is confirmed or denied by where/how my trigger finger comes to rest as the pistol clears the holster. That is built from repetitions to that particular indexing. At that point, it's non-diagnostic; the choice to draw has been made, whether to retention/ready/presentation, but there is no divergence in there for drawing in preparation for a different trigger index. Mind you, this is referential to just myself.

Having two hands on the gun allows us to get away with quite a bit by the trigger finger; having only one hand on the gun calls for us to consider the minutiae quite a bit more.

Before I can really consider running different finger/trigger indexes, I'd have to consider asserting divergent grips before the drawstroke has even begun, and at what point I'd choose and commit to either.

No worries, all good here ;)

What you're getting at is really a great argument for why the techniques should be the same for 2-handed and strong-handed shooting. When you draw, you may be going to either. (Weak handed is a different story.)

Let me make the situation a bit harder, because the example scenario I gave could have been better:

Forget recoil control and say a hypothetical person shoots more accurately two-handed with the pad than the first joint. Say the same person shoots much more accurately and precisely one-handed with the first joint than with the pad. I am extremely confident such a person could exist and can back that up with numbers. I'd have a very hard time telling that person not to use two techniques, because IMO the shot placement is extremely high value whereas muscle memory can be learned.

Personally, I'm trying to figure out whether or not I'm that person. I'm not sure that the differences in grip are significant enough to be making a noticeable change in my recoil control. My accuracy and precision is what I'm much more concerned about. So far I don't have a ton of conclusive data, and I suspect other fundamentals issues are covering up the differences here for me.

[taadski]

Agreed re the value in having one technique for both scenarios.

Perfect… ;)



I think the DA/SA thing is really another boat from the 1-hand 2-hand thing: talking about making precise changes immediately after your first shot and before your second is really worlds away from talking about how one chooses to shoot one-handed vs two-handed.

Perhaps, until you have to make the adjustment (two handed to one, or vice versa) in the heat of the moment at speed. Something that is pretty plausible during the implementation of a firearm.



It goes without saying that the above is not intended to come off as an attack or retaliation, and I definitely don't take anything about this conversation personally.

Nope, not personal. Just trying to help ya.


t

[GRV]

Perhaps, until you have to make the adjustment (two handed to one, or vice versa) in the heat of the moment at speed. Something that is pretty plausible during the implementation of a firearm.


Fair point. What happens at draw time strikes me as particularly relevant here.

Not really a case for how one's technique may differ weak-hand only, but I get the point.

[Irelander]

I have short fingers. When I "sink" my finger into my Gen3 G19 I can barely get to the first crease in my trigger finger. I have to roll the gun around to get all the way into the first crease. I have issues with throwing shots to the left. Sometimes this makes me think that Glocks are not for me. Yet when I slow down and focus on the perfect trigger pull I can center things up very well. This just helps me understand that I need to dry fire and live fire practice more often.

[HCM]

I have short fingers. When I "sink" my finger into my Gen3 G19 I can barely get to the first crease in my trigger finger. I have to roll the gun around to get all the way into the first crease. I have issues with throwing shots to the left. Sometimes this makes me think that Glocks are not for me. Yet when I slow down and focus on the perfect trigger pull I can center things up very well. This just helps me understand that I need to dry fire and live fire practice more often.

In your case, having smaller hands, try less finger - using the tip / hook and curl. It will also help avoid "biceping" .

As stated earlier, I have XXL hands and both more and less trigger finger works for me with the Glock.

You have to experiment and do what Works for you.

[Jeff22]

So since the beginning of the year I've spent a lot of time on the range bonding with my Glocks (19,22,35,42 and 43)

Running more finger on the trigger works pretty good with the bigger guns, but my results are inconsistent with the G42 and G43. I have fairly big hands and long fingers.

Experimentation continues . . .

[dustyvarmint]

I've "cured" many of our officers from shooting left (of course with lefties it's the opposite...) with their Glocks via having them get the first crease on the trigger and run it like one would a DA revolver.

I was lucky enough to take 2 classes with Chuck this year (3rd Haggard class) - this trigger finger development, which was really just a side comment Chuck made in break small talk and that I picked up on, has been one of the 2 single most important advancements I've made. And I'm a mildly paced training ho. The other, a grip technique, also came from Chuck.

happy shooting, Jerry

[Obelisk]

I am no expert but I don’t feel it matters how much finger is used. If I welded a pistol to a two ton block of steel and pulled the trigger the gun’s point of aim isn’t going to change. I can jerk the trigger and it will still shoot POA. To me the trigger isn’t as much as an issue than grip is. If the trigger pull is affecting the POA, it’s more than likely a grip issue as the trigger finger shouldn’t be moving POA to begin with. The gun should not be moving upon pulling the trigger to begin with.

A bad grip or a weak grip are equally bad. Bad grip from the start pulling to the left generally supporting hand thumb not pressing against the frame which takes practice to learn. Weak grip that’s technically right but the firearm shifts round after round after recoil. Grip training is important. Not as much as a crushing grip but a strong grip that lasts. You may believe you have a strong grip, but you still need to work on it if you want to get to the next level. If you want to shoot fast you will be jerking the trigger back in rapid succession and have recoil on top of the shooting. You’ll have to keep accuracy with the grip and minimize the weapon shifting in your hand under recoil.

Then there’s practicing. Practicing relentlessly from a draw is very important and going to the range frequently. Hitting the range 4 times a year or less isn’t going to get one familiarized to getting a good crushing grip. A strong proper grip where you see the blood being squeezed from the fingers from the first to last shot. It sounds simple, in reality it takes a bit of range time to master. Your hands should feel like octopuses on the weapon. A good solid grip and no matter what you do to the trigger the POA is not moving.

Again I’m no expert. This has worked for me.

[HCM]

I am no expert but I don’t feel it matters how much finger is used. If I welded a pistol to a two ton block of steel and pulled the trigger the gun’s point of aim isn’t going to change. I can jerk the trigger and it will still shoot POA. To me the trigger isn’t as much as an issue than grip is. If the trigger pull is affecting the POA, it’s more than likely a grip issue as the trigger finger shouldn’t be moving POA to begin with. The gun should not be moving upon pulling the trigger to begin with.

A bad grip or a weak grip are equally bad. Bad grip from the start pulling to the left generally supporting hand thumb not pressing against the frame which takes practice to learn. Weak grip that’s technically right but the firearm shifts round after round after recoil. Grip training is important. Not as much as a crushing grip but a strong grip that lasts. You may believe you have a strong grip, but you still need to work on it if you want to get to the next level. If you want to shoot fast you will be jerking the trigger back in rapid succession and have recoil on top of the shooting. You’ll have to keep accuracy with the grip and minimize the weapon shifting in your hand under recoil.

Then there’s practicing. Practicing relentlessly from a draw is very important and going to the range frequently. Hitting the range 4 times a year or less isn’t going to get one familiarized to getting a good crushing grip. A strong proper grip where you see the blood being squeezed from the fingers from the first to last shot. It sounds simple, in reality it takes a bit of range time to master. Your hands should feel like octopuses on the weapon. A good solid grip and no matter what you do to the trigger the POA is not moving.

Again I’m no expert. This has worked for me.

Yes, but no.

The Glock is sensitive to both grip and trigger finger placement.

In particular, if you were to look at the profile of the Glock trigger from the top you will see that the trigger face is rounded unlike most triggers which have a flat face, at least as viewed from the top. In addition to the rounded trigger face, you have the inertia or drop safety “flipper” in the middle at the apex of the curve as viewed from the top.

Right handed shooters pushing shots directly left / 9 o’clock are often the result of the shooter engaging only the left side of the trigger and the flipper. As a result, they are pulling the trigger on a 10 o’clock - 4 o’clock axis rather than straight back on a 12 o’clock- 6 o’clock axis. This is the “curvature” issue Dove referenced earlier. It is also why aftermarket flat triggers for Glocks are so popular.

For myself, engaging a stock Glock trigger with either the tip or the crease will give me contact with both sides of the trigger and allow me to pull straight back. Using the middle of the pad will push shots left to 9 o’clock. These results are consistent for me one handed or two handed. I run the crease as it is more consistent for me at full speed.

Shots elsewhere, such as high left (11 o’clock) are often a grip issue. Usually milking or heeling by a right hander.

There is a school of thought that a crush grip can mask all trigger issues. This is true but only up to a point depending on grip strength, technique and frequency of practice.

Reality is I have 700 shooters at work and over 600 of them will never shoot more than 4 times a year so what a Rob Leatham, a Tim Herron or a Bob Vogel can do with a crush grip has limited application.

[Surf]

It depends on the shooter and the weapon. There is no single best answer. Anyone who says that there is a one size fits all answer is most likely shortsighted and/or not skilled enough or too lazy to work it out on a shooter by shooter basis.

[Poconnor]

I agree it depends on the shooter and the weapon; but I have a friend who is a very very experienced 1911 shooter. Many classes and decades of training; he recently went to a Pat Mac class -his shooting improved with more trigger. He was shooting well to begin with but he said more finger helped. He smoked the next qual he did. IDK; is it just trying something new and concentrating on the trigger press more? Or is it physical advantageous for certain people with certain gun designs? Said friend and I just went to lunch and we talked about the departments new officers. They want a hardware solution to a software problem. We used to issue Colt 1911s. My friend and I were the range instructors and armorers. When we retired the department went to HK VP9s. They wanted a modern gun. If I was still there I would remind the new guys - “it’s the Indian ; not the arrow”. My advice for issued guns? Train, dry fire, get married to the platform and don’t stray. Strive for unconscious competence which leads to confidence in performance. I would tell them it’s like the campaign hat. It doesn’t fit and it is uncomfortable when it’s first issued. Wear it long enough and your head will change to fit it and you will get used to it. But unfortunately most people just need more range time and experience with a good coach/ instructor; not a target scorer. Not range masturbation to produce brass. I admit training hard with a goal does take some of the fun out of shooting- it’s hard work. But what is the goal? My final thought on trigger press-the speed/ and or quality of my press depends on the size of the target, the distance of the shot and the speed/urgency of the shot. The attacker with a contact weapon running at me at 2 yards doesn’t need a precise press. I need speed and accuracy. The attacker shooting at you 30 yards away using cover with only a small part exposed? You need precision accuracy; which means a precise trigger press. ( or bounce them into him, but that’s a tactic/ shooting technique)