Warrior mindset - problem?

[Glenn E. Meyer]

http://harvardlawreview.org/2015/04/law-enforcements-warrior-problem/

Saw this today. FYI, folks.

One side issue - the article criticizes the mantra of having a plan to kill everyone you meet. Heard that in a class taught by a doctor associated with the police a few weeks ago. It was thought for civilians to bring legal problems in a self-defense claim. The article claims it might give hypervigiliance to officers which may interfere with interactions with the populace in non-critical situations.

I found the Harvard piece as a reference in http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2015/12/officer-porter-mistrial-police-culture/421656/

Glenn

[GardoneVT]

I get the sense the article is playing to a crowd, and its not law enforcement.

The public social consciousness is heavily biased against LE use of force at the moment.

It's so bad middle and high class white collar folk in the banking sector are having watercooler talks about police use of force being "out of control": theyre merely parroting what some airhead said on CNN. Now the mental rot is reaching the academic sectors. It won't be long before what's debated as "edgy policy" at Harvard becomes case law in Chicago, and from there the rest of the country.

[voodoo_man]

http://www.law.sc.edu/faculty/stoughton/

Thats his bio, from reading it gives a pretty good impression he did some work while on the job.

Few things that stand out, officer who worked 5 years and taught report writing and then was SRT? Yeahhhh something doesnt jive with that, but might be that department does things a lot different than others, that cool.

I read the article and while i can totally see his academia-influenced point, lets really talk about the specific issue, as Glenn pointed out - hypervigiliance makes officers edgy towards everyone all them and that is bad for community relations.

The flip side is what? Not having the proper mindset to survive, not being hypervigiliant? So not to plan to kill everyone you meet. Ok, so what happens then when you have to, will you all of a sudden be able to do something that is outside your mindset? Highly unlikely


Developing an off switch? Everyone has one already, its called sleep. If you stop caring about your safety when you arent at work you are essentially preparing for a very rude awakening, since there are no lack of news stories covering off duty officers getting involved in stuff - dont even get me started on the fact you lock people and do violence onto people for a job, do you think you wont be targeted off duty?

Beyond all that, his entire argument is that of a logical fallacy, a lesson he obviously did not learn during his short time on the job. Officer safety never ends, ever. It starts the moment you are sworn in and does not end the moment of your death.

Life is not victory, death is not defeat.

You have to worry about your family, your fellow officers, their families, and what you need to do to ensure survival. There are varying levels of multiple tiers of responsibility here.

Any boot will learn good and functional personal officer safety, especially if they have a good fto, really learning the way to go about living an LE life is not something that can be taught.

Unless the community I serve can be depended on to take up arms and fight for my life, which they arent and never will be in any capacity, everything rests on the officers shoulders.

I can say without hesitation that community relations be damned when it comes to officer safety. Just like you cannot help if you never get there, you cannot help if you arent alive to do so.

[Totem Polar]

Somewhat divergent from the original article, but, I was just reviewing this old clip by a friend on mindset; sort of speaks to the same thing as some of our comments, FWIW:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uLsULlfyQPQ


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uLsULlfyQPQ

[JHC]

I've been on the receiving end of hyper-vigilance a few times in situations where the LEOs had reason to take control and check things out. I was happy to hyper-cooperate in support of their methods they need. IMO the big problem is not LEO hyper-vigilance so much as a self centered me me and I culture that bristles at the puny outrage.

[voodoo_man]

I've been on the receiving end of hyper-vigilance a few times in situations where the LEOs had reason to take control and check things out. I was happy to hyper-cooperate in support of their methods they need. IMO the big problem is not LEO hyper-vigilance so much as a self centered me me and I culture that bristles at the puny outrage.

I agree with this, specifically the bold part.

[Drang]

Started to comment, realized this is an LE thread, not Mindset (problem with using the "New Posts" function, sometimes not sure where the post is...), then had a thought, so...

It seems to me that what is needed is someone with the gravitas to write an article that explains that General Mattis' rule
Be polite, be professional, but have a plan to kill everybody you meet.
was intended as an executive-summary-equivalent for Marines operating in the Fourth Generation Warfare environment, in which they would spend most of their time trying to win hearts and minds while needing to stay frosty as to the need to switch in the blink of an eye to making good terrorists. And further explaining that policing in America today has a need for an equivalent ability, in which one might find oneself reminding an urban youth that it is dangerous and unlawful to walk down the middle of the street, and realize that said youth is wanted for strongarm robbery, and the next thing you know he's grabbing for your gun.

Just because Officer Friendly is having coffee does not mean that the need to transition to "Action Stations" will come with warning and time to prep.

[Erick Gelhaus]

The contents of Stoughton's bio has been discussed before; it's pretty slim in terms of actual cop stuff. But, he has made it in academia ... argh ... all the more reason we need to get competent people there.

A couple areas the profession (both our admin & our employee associations) are failing at directly involve communicating what we now to the community. 1st, we do not use lethal force anywhere near as often as we are justified in using. And that is provable through research & raw numbers. Dr. David Klinger, Pinizzotto/FBI, and LAPD's numbers (which are openly shared) and most agencies (not always shared) show the ratio of contacts, arrests, use of force (threatened or actual) or OIS all go from from lots to few to barely to nearly non-existant. If the thread is still going over the weekend I'll put links.
2nd is an area this community discusses here & elsewhere and that is the speed at which these events can unfold.

I'm getting a lot of use out of the numbers above in school for my thesis and it is amazing at perceptions vs reality on the frequency of these events.

[Erick Gelhaus]

Damnit, lost a good reply with the wrong button ...

Stoughton's cop bio is pretty short on working cop background. One of the other officer's has some, uh, unique opinions in expert testimony.

A couple issues that aren't being well communicated by organizatiions or employee associations (we cant' strike so we don't have unions) ... 1st, one that is oft discussed here & in similar places, the speed at which these events can unfold. It is because of that that some advocate for Bryce's mantra.
2nd, in reality the numbers on actual (or threatened) use of force including OIS are small, or miniscule, in comparision to the arrests never mind the contacts we make. Dr Klinger, Pinizzotto/FBI and LAPD - all open source - and smaller organizations have amazingly low ratios of contacts / arrests / use of force / OIS that are never discussed.

Klinger is quite competent but Alpert gets more media play. Either way, we need more experienced people in academia (Hearne is not enough by himself). I'm getting good use out of the numbers in my thesis but people act like they've never heard of it.

If this thread is still going over the weekend I'll post links to the references.

[Dr. No]

Want to watch what happens when warrior mindset isn't there?


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kOSELcrJ7Kw

What should be taught is *WHEN* it is appropriate to switch it on. We have a class here written by our old Major called 'Pre Incident Indicators of Violent Assault" which studies what these POS's do before they try to assault or kill people. If you can recognize it before they can put their plan into action, you win. These two thought trains coupled together would provide the most safety for LE and the honest citizens of the world.

[GardoneVT]

Want to watch what happens when warrior mindset isn't there?


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kOSELcrJ7Kw

What should be taught is *WHEN* it is appropriate to switch it on. We have a class here written by our old Major called 'Pre Incident Indicators of Violent Assault" which studies what these POS's do before they try to assault or kill people. If you can recognize it before they can put their plan into action, you win. These two thought trains coupled together would provide the most safety for LE and the honest citizens of the world.

When a LEO dies, the community (not everywhere, but true of most urban areas) shrugs.Some places even celebrate dead cops.

When a bad guy dies, behold the knashing of teeth about 'police brutality'.We don't hear requests for "national conversations about criminal brutality" when cops are assaulted in the line of duty.

Where's the highway-blocking protest against cops getting shot in the face with 7.62 rifle fire?

[voodoo_man]

When a LEO dies, the community (not everywhere, but true of most urban areas) shrugs.Some places even celebrate dead cops.

When a bad guy dies, behold the knashing of teeth about 'police brutality'.We don't hear requests for "national conversations about criminal brutality" when cops are assaulted in the line of duty.

Where's the highway-blocking protest against cops getting shot in the face with 7.62 rifle fire?

I don't know about shrugs of an urban community, last few "urban" LEO funerals I went to there was a pretty good non-LEO turn out.

We protest by being vigilant, by getting our officer safety more in tune. One thing you rarely read is that the departments that have LEO's killed in the line of duty through criminal violence / shootings show a significant OIS percentage directly afterward. I know my PD does every single time, as do other larger PD's.

We also know that having the people having these "national conversations" don't know anything about LE or what a LEO has to do on a daily basis and putting up a randomly picked patrol officer would end in a very horrifying slaughter of any pundit or intellectual who has theories about things they know nothing about.

[KeeFus]

The switch is something I had to learn over time...and many screw ups and complaints. It has been, at times, a struggle to balance but it can be done.

Last year I happened upon the traffic stop of a young officer. This officer had never encountered a hardened criminal and it was showing in the contact. I exited my car and walked to the suspect vehicle on the passenger side...suspect never knew I was there until I lit up the inside of the vehicle with my SL20. When I did that I caught him reaching behind his back. The hair on my neck stood up all the while the rookie was talking to him like they were best friends. I walked around the car and had the dude get out of the car...he wanted to run or fight but the rookie still hadn't put all the signs together. I told him he was under arrest for driving in a revoked license and grabbed him. He didn't want to submit and, at that point, the rookie was playing catch up. I finally told the young officer to back up, pull their tazer, and if he didnt stop resisting to tase his ass. I eventually got his left hand in irons and started searching him...finding a stolen M&P 45 in the small of his back. He was sentenced last month to 15 years in Federal court. I will have grandkids and be retired long before he sees the light of day.

That night the young officer learned a valuable lesson...hopefully a switch was flipped in their mind. LEOs can say they have a warrior mindset all they want but the proof is in the pudding. They are not being taught about it in the academy so therfore its left to us, the older ones, to develop this in those around us. If not, we will surely see more people getting hurt or killed. Having the switch and knowing when to use it is a necessity in my opinion.

[disseminator]

Want to watch what happens when warrior mindset isn't there?


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kOSELcrJ7Kw

What should be taught is *WHEN* it is appropriate to switch it on. We have a class here written by our old Major called 'Pre Incident Indicators of Violent Assault" which studies what these POS's do before they try to assault or kill people. If you can recognize it before they can put their plan into action, you win. These two thought trains coupled together would provide the most safety for LE and the honest citizens of the world.

I think you are 100% on the "when". What happened to this young LEO could easily happen to anyone. It proves once again that your most effective weapon is the grey one between your ears.

I'm a little bit sadder after that video, but what an eye opener. I wish some of the #BLM folks would watch some of these video's and try to understand a little better what they are talking about.

Thanks for posting that, I think.

[Lon]

Here is a good article on the death of Deputy Dinkheller:

http://policemarksman.com/2014/06/26/officer-down-slowly-developing-threats-the-kyle-dinkheller-incident/

[11B10]

The switch is something I had to learn over time...and many screw ups and complaints. It has been, at times, a struggle to balance but it can be done.

Last year I happened upon the traffic stop of a young officer. This officer had never encountered a hardened criminal and it was showing in the contact. I exited my car and walked to the suspect vehicle on the passenger side...suspect never knew I was there until I lit up the inside of the vehicle with my SL20. When I did that I caught him reaching behind his back. The hair on my neck stood up all the while the rookie was talking to him like they were best friends. I walked around the car and had the dude get out of the car...he wanted to run or fight but the rookie still hadn't put all the signs together. I told him he was under arrest for driving in a revoked license and grabbed him. He didn't want to submit and, at that point, the rookie was playing catch up. I finally told the young officer to back up, pull their tazer, and if he didnt stop resisting to tase his ass. I eventually got his left hand in irons and started searching him...finding a stolen M&P 45 in the small of his back. He was sentenced last month to 15 years in Federal court. I will have grandkids and be retired long before he sees the light of day.

That night the young officer learned a valuable lesson...hopefully a switch was flipped in their mind. LEOs can say they have a warrior mindset all they want but the proof is in the pudding. They are not being taught about it in the academy so therfore its left to us, the older ones, to develop this in those around us. If not, we will surely see more people getting hurt or killed. Having the switch and knowing when to use it is a necessity in my opinion.
Keefus, Voodoo - after reading what the LEO's who posted here had to say on this thread - may I most respectfully submit that I don't ever recall feelng as much helplessness as a CCL/W-type reader as I do now. I will never pretend that I know how you feel - how could I? How do you propose these new LEO's attain "the switch?" As a civilian, I preach condition yellow, head on a swivel (360), TOTAL cooperation with LE - to anyone that holds still long enough. What else should/can I do?

[voodoo_man]

Keefus, Voodoo - after reading what the LEO's who posted here had to say on this thread - may I most respectfully submit that I don't ever recall feelng as much helplessness as a CCL/W-type reader as I do now. I will never pretend that I know how you feel - how could I? How do you propose these new LEO's attain "the switch?" As a civilian, I preach condition yellow, head on a swivel (360), TOTAL cooperation with LE - to anyone that holds still long enough. What else should/can I do?

CCW citizen interaction with LEO should be a very specific and predetermined mode of contact. Lots of slow mo, lots of communication, lots of "sir" "please" and "may I" type of stuff - on both ends, for everyone's safety.

As far as "the switch" is concerned, I can only speak from personal experience and as I have posted in reference to this before, simply having a gun and/or being a LEO is not enough often times. My personal "switch" wasn't turned on until my first really shitty situation on duty. After that the blanket of ignorance was lifted and I knew I had to do everything in my power to get as much training on both physical and mental preparation not just for the fight, but before it and after it.

There is just so much that plays into it and there are so many different factors that differ greatly and widely between people and locale that I would be short changing you if I tried to explain it in a post.

[KeeFus]

Keefus, Voodoo - after reading what the LEO's who posted here had to say on this thread - may I most respectfully submit that I don't ever recall feelng as much helplessness as a CCL/W-type reader as I do now. I will never pretend that I know how you feel - how could I? How do you propose these new LEO's attain "the switch?" As a civilian, I preach condition yellow, head on a swivel (360), TOTAL cooperation with LE - to anyone that holds still long enough. What else should/can I do?

I have NEVER had a bad contact with a person that was OC'ing or carrying concealed. NEVER. Even though I do not agree with OC, I respect it as a Constitutional right. From my experience these folks that legally carry in any form are respectful. When im notified they are carrying concealed, as they are required to by NC law, I thank them for carrying. If I were to teach Civilian concealed carry Id mix in respect. Its a two-way street. If I were to come across an officer who was badge heavy (respect my authority type) Id comply and take it to his agency.

Like I said earlier, there are a lot of people who claim to have a warrior mindset...but the proof is in their actions. As has been mentioned here before, if all you have is a hammer every situation looks like a nail. A switch has to be cultivated over time by someone who has been there and done it a few times. Not every officer will develop a switch and they're fairly easy to figure out within their first few years of being on the road. These are the ones that eventually ride a desk and make some stupid policies that puts officers at risk of injury.

The switch isn't activated by someone who is acting like they have some sense. Its flipped when an an officer sees activity that they have seen or been trained to see as hidden acts of defiance. Its really hard to put into words because often times its a sixth sense, so to speak.

I cant say it enough, respect by everyone involved in a police encounter goes a long way.

[psalms144.1]

Here is a good article on the death of Deputy Dinkheller:

http://policemarksman.com/2014/06/26/officer-down-slowly-developing-threats-the-kyle-dinkheller-incident/Lon - as many times as I've seen the Dinkheller video or heard it discussed, I'd never seen an article as well done as the one you linked. Thank you.

FWIW, as far as I know, Deputy Dinkheller was a "warrior," and had, shortly before this incident, been counseled by his chain of command to "dial it back." I can't help but wonder if that was in the back of his mind right up until this guy went fully sideways on him...

[pablo]

That night the young officer learned a valuable lesson...hopefully a switch was flipped in their mind. LEOs can say they have a warrior mindset all they want but the proof is in the pudding. They are not being taught about it in the academy so therfore its left to us, the older ones, to develop this in those around us. If not, we will surely see more people getting hurt or killed. Having the switch and knowing when to use it is a necessity in my opinion.

That touches on a key point. Knowledge vacuums suck. When a void is discovered, whatever gets sucked in first is most likely going to take hold. Some guys get lucky and have good mentors, the truth is though that good mentors aren't the ones running their mouths like the Never-have-beens who rant about the good old days and spread horrible advice. To a young and impressionable officer what's offered might sound like good advise but it's usually quite the opposite.

Some things can only be learned through OJT, but the kindler gentler academy approach leaves a lot of voids in an officer's skill set that will eventually get filled with something of unknown quality and origin.

[Coyotesfan97]

The problem is regardless of how much training young Officers get in the Academy the concept that there are people who hate them simply for wearing the uniform and will kill them if given a chance is a foreign concept.

Another issue I see is guys coming on who have never been in a fight in their lives or have never played a contact sport. I wish we'd hire a lot more military especially combat veterans.




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[Robert Mitchum]

All of the guys I retired with from the DOC feel the same way !!!!
There are many who have respect and know how hard of a job it is to be a Police Officer in todays society.
God bless you guys and be safe !!!
!5128

[11B10]

All of the guys I retired with from the DOC feel the same way !!!!
There are many who have respect and know how hard of a job it is to be a Police Officer in todays society.
God bless you guys and be safe !!!
!5128

THIS!!!!!! And... to all of you who posted - you say it's damn near impossible to put into words, but you got the message across to me. I have always known there is no substitute for experience in any area - even moreso in LE. Since I've been reading pf, the respect and empathy I had for LEO's took off. There was a thread elsewhere about favorite movies, tv, etc. I was watching a repeat of Blue Bloods last night - great episode where the young blonde policewoman/partner of Jamie Reagan shoots and kills a guy only because the situation was escalated by a wannabe. I thought of what I've been reading here - so many times. That - and the great acting, had me on the brink where I wanted to help/get better/whatever! - in any way I could. I am so verly thankful - first, for what you do every day - and second, for taking the time to post here. I consider this site to be invaluable to everyone.

[LSP552]

Anyone who has literally fought for their life, and won, understands the need for a warrior mindset. An opinion without experience is just wishful thinking.

[KeeFus]

Anyone who has literally fought for their life, and won, understands the need for a warrior mindset. An opinion without experience is just wishful thinking.

You won all the internets today!

[psalms144.1]

Anyone who has literally fought for their life, and won, understands the need for a warrior mindset. An opinion without experience is just wishful thinking.Brother, if I could like this post over and over, and send it to every police "expert" who never wore a badge or walked a beat, I'd do so until my fingers dropped off.