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View Full Version : a strange tale of possible wrong-handedness (very long post)



fuse
10-02-2011, 09:21 PM
first, a bit about me.

I'm not ambidextrous, I am more what you'd call.. confused.

I use my right hand to-
write, play tennis/ping pong, shoot a long gun

I use my left hand to-
throw a ball, hit a baseball, play golf, arm wrestle

My left hand/arm is definitely stronger, as I favor it for tasks requiring perhaps more strength than precision (when doing pushups as I tire I often find myself favoring my left arm)
My right hand/arm, while not as strong as my left, has always worked much better for more precision tasks such as writing.

my history with pistols equally odd. Since my left hand/arm is stronger, as a brand new pistol (G19) owner in 2007 (really only shot .22 pistols when I was much younger) I naturally started out as a left handed shooter. Eventually I bought a sig 226, since the mag release could be reversed (and the SEALs use it!), and I began competing in IDPA and took a couple of Todds "practice sessions at the NRA range", which were my first formal class experiences. However, I did not shoot much, was definitely much more of a 'gun owner' than 'shooter', and as such my skills were firmly in the "beginner" category.
At some point I decided to try and shoot right handed, as I clearly believed I was right eye dominant since the "look through a hole then cover an eye" test clearly shows it. Also, I was getting very good at trap/sporting clays, which I shoot right handed, and figured I'd be better at the pistol right handed after getting used to controlling recoil with what I perceived as my slightly weaker hand. I think my pistol skills barely got better upon my switch, as I still did not practice with any regularity and had many bad habits.

But I was a right handed shooter now! I could use the mag release on my glock with my strong (right) hand, and drop the slide using the slide release! High speed low drag! and the legions of holsters and other gear I would eventually buy were often in stock, and didn't have to be special ordered! Life was sweet.

Over the past 15 months, I have absolutely transitioned from 'owner' to 'shooter'. I have practiced with regularity and worked up a regimen of drills with known standards. I've taken many great classes and shot more matches.

After taking Todd's Speed Kills in March, I set a goal of achieving an 'advanced' score on the F.A.S.T. Last month at AFHF, I met that goal. (http://pistol-training.com/archives/5334) Very satisfying.



*********


While I have learned to shoot quickly and accurately enough at 'handgun realistic distances' with 'combat effective accuracy' (say, high probability targets inside 10 yards), pure accuracy has always been my fatal flaw.

My shots group to be left. It does not matter how fast or slow I am shooting, even if I'm in the target zone, its to the left. Not usually the classic low and left, just left.

The following examples illustrate a typical group on a 2 inch dot, shot as slowly and as accurately as I can.

at 3 yards.

http://i393.photobucket.com/albums/pp15/ebtromba/left/3yards.jpg

Most rounds are hits though the tendency to group left is apparent even at this distance. Keep in mind in these examples I am going as slow as possible, giving myself a perfect sight picture and trigger press.

5 yards-
http://i393.photobucket.com/albums/pp15/ebtromba/left/5yardsleft.jpg

lots of shots out. the left POI shift is becoming more apparent.

7 yards-

http://i393.photobucket.com/albums/pp15/ebtromba/left/7yards.jpg

horrible. you can see how clearing a plate rack at 12 yards while holding center can potentially be an infuriating and time consuming experience.

Its been like this for months. It is very frustrating. at this distance I have no idea if I'm going to get a hit on a 2'' dot. The groups are usually pretty tight, just to the left. My good friend JConn can vouch for this, as he's seen it many times. I have even benched the gun, and still experienced this. A very tight one ragged hole group, to the left of where I was aiming. I have tried putting less finger on the trigger. It does not seem to help, and sometimes causes me to throw shots even further left.



I sadly got in the habit of simply holding somewhat right on low probability targets beyond around 5 yards or so, or high probability targets beyond about 15 yards. I can't shoot a 25 yard group unless I am holding on the right edge of the target. I even drifted my sights on one of my guns (I have many guns, and shoot them all to the left) to the right, though it didn't really help much.

Since I (believe) I am right eye dominant, I don't think there is some failure to deal with a cross eye dominant-type issue.

****





Fast forward to the last couple days. For months I have always noticed that shooting weak hand only (left hand only) I was very accurate. Like small 5 round groups in a 2 inch dot perfectly centered, often out to 5 yards. In other words, far superior than my normal 2 handed supported. Something is clearly amiss.

With this in mind, for shits and giggles I went to the range tonight with a CCC versa clip holster. Its universal, meaning you can put it anywhere (left, right, OWB, IWB). I configured it left handed OWB.

...and I proceeded to shoot more accurately than I ever have in my life.

at 5 yards on the same 2 inch dot thats been my nemesis for so long, I was getting this-

http://i393.photobucket.com/albums/pp15/ebtromba/left/5yards.jpg

I think the vertical misses were probably due to me simply not being used to gripping the gun this way. Still, this is a huge improvement and I couldn't believe it. A couple times I switched back to my normal right hand 2 handed grip, and got the terrible left POI I've come to except.

I shot around 250 rounds left handed (2 hand supported) and by the end the improvement in my accuracy was unreal. I was drilling 2 inch dots at 7 yards, while holding my front sight in the center. I thought I was going to cry. I mean, it was the damnest thing. Line up sights, slowly press trigger. bullet goes where I tell it. not to the left of where my front sight was when the shot broke. It was...so.... easy.

I am not yet declaring myself a lefty and holding the Great Fuse Holster and Mag Pouch Fire Sale just yet. This will have to be repeated many times. I am not thrilled about being a lefty, since glocks don't have a ambi slide release and I have a few gen3 glocks with non-reversible mag catches. But if this improvement appears to be constant I'd be a fool not to change over.

So, esteemed forum readers, WTF? what is causing this left POI shift when shooting right handed?

my theories-

1. Like your car's side view mirror, I am seeing things differently than they appear when shooting right handed. Perhaps I am not right eye dominant? Or, perhaps I am somehow not looking through my dominant eye?
2. my grip sucks. I am torquing the gun somehow.
3. bad trigger control
4. Anticipation/flinching.
5. I got lucky. as soon as I get more and more used to shooting left-handed, the same flawed habits will come back and I'll be back where I started, but with much slower reloads.


Thoughts? Advice?

JConn
10-02-2011, 09:29 PM
Go drink a beer. Make sure to use your other awesome hand.

ToddG
10-02-2011, 09:43 PM
What happens when you pick up the pace? Don't confuse a problem with your fundamentals (whether it's grip, trigger press, or sight picture) with wrong-handedness. On the other hand, given that you clearly do some things better with your LH than your RH, it could simply be that you shoot pistol better with your LH.

Figuring out which eye is your dominant one is -- like many things in shooting -- far easier than most people think. Stand 5+ yards from a light switch. Point at the light switch so you see your fingertip covering the light switch. Close your left eye. If your finger is still pointing at the light switch, you are right eye dominant. If your finger is no longer pointing at the light switch, you are left eye dominant.

fuse
10-02-2011, 10:02 PM
I am absolutely right eye dominant.

I did numerous controlled pairs into a 3x5 index card at 7 yards. It was about the same speed as I am used to going when shooting a clean 6.5-7.5 FAST. Did them from the draw, but without concealment.

I did a couple 3-two-1 drill (http://pistol-training.com/drills/3-two-1)s at 4 yards. again speed was not any different than I am used to. I am NOT used to actually hitting the 1'' square most times, no matter what the speed. so that was very nice.


I seemed to acquire my sights no slower than I am used to.


I will run some actual FASTs and Bill Drills the next time I go. though it will take time to learn how to do this grip. still feels very strange, and my left hand sometimes doesn't want to get as high as it can.

ToddG
10-02-2011, 10:10 PM
fuse -- If you're already doing as well "left hand strong" as you normally do "right hand strong," then I think it's probably worth investing some time on changing to the left handed grip. Once it becomes more natural, it will probably improve pretty significantly.

fuse
10-02-2011, 10:15 PM
..which is what I'm afraid of.

always knew god hated me.

mscott327
10-03-2011, 05:52 AM
fuse,

wow, and I thought I had issues! I'm left handed and right eye dominant and I also own and carry a glock 30. I just incorporate drills into my dry fire program that will repeat under pressure. I agree they take a bit more time with the left hand, but I can repeat them every time. I'm also learning how to release the mag with my left middle finger. I'm still trying to figure out how to use my left hand to release from slide lock and keep my hand position on the gun, but that's another story. I just pull back on the slide with my right hand after inserting the new mag. It's almost one fluid motion.
good luck. You'll make the right decision.

David S.
10-03-2011, 10:23 AM
Before you switch back,

-Are you seeing the sight lift in recoil? Are you calling your shots? Does that change when you transition from two-handed to SHO/WHO?

-How does your "right hand only" shooting compare?

While in a training class, I was struggling with the typical Glock (pulling my shots left) issue. When we moved on to strong hand only, my groups came right back to center. This was in spite of having a less steady platform. confused. I had no significant practice with my SHO and was shooting my best groups. As we transitioned back to two handed, my groups drifted to the left again.

Another school noted that it's fairly common to see initial accuracy improvements when starting with SHO and WHO.
A. If you are pulling shots, then too much support hand grip pressure. I found out much later that I was holding my support hand too high on the frame in order to get the aggressive thumb forward grip. This allowed for no support hand contact with the frame below the thumb. My support hand would not maintain it's grip without muscling the gun or using the isometric grip pressure. So I muscled the gun. As soon as I went SHO, I stopped muscling the gun with my support hand and my groups returned to center.

B. Your ego has lower expectations. You're not consciously or subconsciously trying to prove anything, you're just working the fundamentals. In many cases (including me) that relaxes me enough to noticeably clean up accuracy.

DannyZRC
10-03-2011, 09:04 PM
Figuring out which eye is your dominant one is -- like many things in shooting -- far easier than most people think. Stand 5+ yards from a light switch. Point at the light switch so you see your fingertip covering the light switch. Close your left eye. If your finger is still pointing at the light switch, you are right eye dominant. If your finger is no longer pointing at the light switch, you are left eye dominant.

With this test, my eye dominance is correlated with which hand I'm using to point with. I doubt I have any strong eye dominance, just thought I'd share.

fuse
10-03-2011, 10:13 PM
Before you switch back,

-Are you seeing the sight lift in recoil? Are you calling your shots? Does that change when you transition from two-handed to SHO/WHO?

-How does your "right hand only" shooting compare?

While in a training class, I was struggling with the typical Glock (pulling my shots left) issue. When we moved on to strong hand only, my groups came right back to center. This was in spite of having a less steady platform. confused. I had no significant practice with my SHO and was shooting my best groups. As we transitioned back to two handed, my groups drifted to the left again.

Another school noted that it's fairly common to see initial accuracy improvements when starting with SHO and WHO.
A. If you are pulling shots, then too much support hand grip pressure. I found out much later that I was holding my support hand too high on the frame in order to get the aggressive thumb forward grip. This allowed for no support hand contact with the frame below the thumb. My support hand would not maintain it's grip without muscling the gun or using the isometric grip pressure. So I muscled the gun. As soon as I went SHO, I stopped muscling the gun with my support hand and my groups returned to center.

B. Your ego has lower expectations. You're not consciously or subconsciously trying to prove anything, you're just working the fundamentals. In many cases (including me) that relaxes me enough to noticeably clean up accuracy.

I don't believe I am seeing my sights lift or calling my shots, though I am aware of the concept of calling shots. I am also aware that probably 1% of those who say they can do it actually can do it. I am certainly trying to be on the path to it. It has been very frustrating, knowing what sight picture and sight alignment is and then not being able to call even slowest, most deliberate shot.

excellent question about my right hand only shooting vs. my left hand only, I should have mentioned this in my original post.
my right hand only shooting is terrible compared to my left hand only shooting. not even close. very inconsistent, shots scatter all over the place. some days I think I have it figured out and then a week later its terrible again.

my left hand only shooting has always been great. I have amazed people at IDPA matches with my weak hand only shooting (in this case left hand only) as compared to my mediocre normal right handed 2 hand supported shooting.


I just thought of something else.

I have noticed in the past that when shooting right-handed 2 hands supported for pure accuracy my best shots are those that truly surprise me. as in, gun pointed at target, prepping the trigger....prepping the trigger...preppiBANG. when I am more successful at predicting when the shot will break, my accuracy usually is dramatically diminished. it does not seem to matter how slowly and carefully I press the trigger. even when benching the gun, I still group to to be left (multiple pistols)
I suppose this would seem to be a textbook case of severe, deeply entrenched anticipation or flinching.

however, while shooting left-handed last night this was irrelevant. If my sights were lined up when I chose to break the shot, I usually got a hit. If they were lined up when a shot surprised me, I got a hit.

I will be at the range Wednesday exploring this further and will update this thread accordingly. It does seem as if I am on track to be a "born again" south paw.

thanks to all for the input.

ToddG
10-03-2011, 10:18 PM
excellent question about my right hand only shooting vs. my left hand only, I should have mentioned this in my original post.
my right hand only shooting is terrible compared to my left hand only shooting. not even close. very inconsistent, shots scatter all over the place. some days I think I have it figured out and then a week later its terrible again.

my left hand only shooting has always been great. I have amazed people at IDPA matches with my weak hand only shooting (in this case left hand only) as compared to my mediocre normal right handed 2 hand supported shooting.

I'm not sure, but I believe I've heard law enforcement professionals refer to this as something... I think it began with the letter "c."

fuse
10-03-2011, 10:23 PM
due to my sleep deprived status and not knowing any cops....this I do not get.

ToddG
10-03-2011, 11:18 PM
Rhymes with glue...

fuse
10-03-2011, 11:59 PM
I was thinking confirmation.

but I over think most things.

TCinVA
10-04-2011, 11:11 AM
I once had a conversation with Todd that went something like:

Me: I tend to have better visual control of the sight when I close one eye
Todd: Well then, doofus, close one eye
Me: Well, you're not really supposed to do that
Todd: Well, doofus, you're supposed to hit what you intend to hit first and foremost...so maybe worry about that before what you're theoretically "supposed" to do

That's more or less (minus the doofus bit, of course) what he's driving at with you. If you find that doing X offers you a better level of performance with less effort, do X. If your wrong hand/weak hand/non-writing hand/other strong hand/Carl (I call my weak hand Carl because I knew a guy named Carl once and he could bench 450) makes it easier for you to put bullets where they need to go under stress...go with it.

jslaker
10-04-2011, 12:58 PM
Interestingly, I'm basically the exact opposite of you, fuse. I'm naturally left-handed for dexterous tasks like writing, but have always naturally picked up strength-heavy tasks like shooting, throwing, or playing guitar right-handed. I'm definitely right-eye dominant, as well, so it works out in my case.

(to make it even weirder, I'm slightly near-sighted in my right eye, and slightly far-sighted in my left).

fuse
10-05-2011, 08:40 PM
well, I shot about the same today. The same as I shot left-handed on Sunday, and the same as I've shot right-handed for the past year or so.

I did take some pictures.

all targets are 2 inch circles, shot at the staggering distance of 10 FEET. nice and slow.


http://i393.photobucket.com/albums/pp15/ebtromba/left/righty1.jpg

this a very typical 5 shot group for me at this distance. no matter how slow I go, most shots land left. nice pretty hole, though.

http://i393.photobucket.com/albums/pp15/ebtromba/left/lefty1.jpg


left-handed, things starting to look centered.


http://i393.photobucket.com/albums/pp15/ebtromba/left/lefty2.jpg

even the flyer is centered. I'll take it.


http://i393.photobucket.com/albums/pp15/ebtromba/left/righty2.jpg

an even worse than usual right-handed group, and its counterpart.



thoughts:

* I think I can tighten these up, as I get used to this, over time..
* I have always heard that less finger on the trigger will usually help with accuracy. With my right hand this actually seemed to make things less consistent. with my left hand, it is proving to be absolutely key. I wish I had figured this out sooner during today's range session, it would have cleared up some confusion early on.
* I know what a good grip should look like, and feel like. But this left handed grip still feels very weird.
* which brings me to controlling recoil. I don't think my right hand is doing anything. almost as if the weak hand grip is breaking after every shot. The few times I tried to go faster I actually found myself resetting my grip after a every couple shots. besides reloads I think this will take the most time and work.


So I think I'm going to stick with this southpaw business, at least in the short to medium term. the discovery that less trigger finger actually works well for me for the first time is very encouraging.

fuse
10-22-2011, 07:12 PM
UPDATE

While my left-handed shooting seemed to be much improved over my right-handed shooting at first, I believe I was experiencing the "honeymoon effect". I am a professional musician (trumpet player), and in brass playing this refers to trying out a new instrument or mouthpiece. For sometimes as long as 2 or 3 days (the honeymoon) things seem perfect. You are breezing through music that previously gave you much trouble, have more endurance, a huge, beautiful sound, perfect articulation, and can basically do no wrong. and then it all falls apart when the honeymoon ends, and not only do you have all the problems and flaws you had before, you never really got used to the new equipment and a rather painful and clumsy period of acclimation sets in.

I have never heard anyone describe the honeymoon effect in shooting, but I believe it can apply to any skilled physical task.

The left-handed honeymoon was over for me shortly after the start of my 2nd range session.

I realized I simply had to figure this shit out as a right handed person. the way God intended. Or else, completely start over.

So, when shooting right handed, the main thing to remember is not that I shoot to the left, its that I very VERY consistently shoot to the left.


you're supposed to hit what you intend to hit first and foremost...so maybe worry about that before what you're theoretically "supposed" to do


Using the above wisdom I have resolved this issue.

In the past I have tried moving my rear sight to the right a bit. I couldn't tell if it helped.

A couple weeks ago I decided to get nuts. I moved that bitch as far right is it could go without hanging over.

here is a picture for your entertainment-

http://i393.photobucket.com/albums/pp15/ebtromba/photobucket-3060-1319322410641.jpg


and one with some subtle background brag

http://i393.photobucket.com/albums/pp15/ebtromba/photobucket-1293-1319325444359.jpg


Now, after seeing that many of you are probably facepalming. I cannot say I blame you. However, the results I have experienced speak for themselves..

These were the first rounds I shot right-handed with my rear sight all the way to the right. Distance was 10 FEET.

http://i393.photobucket.com/albums/pp15/ebtromba/photobucket-3822-1318744155260.jpg

totally centered. so far so good.

I then tried to shoot at 25 yards, ala DoTW 1, but with a different target.

http://i393.photobucket.com/albums/pp15/ebtromba/photobucket-4273-1318744173542.jpg

as you can see this first effort was pretty bad. But, all ten rounds are on paper, and I seriously could not reliably do that before moving my rear sight.

I tried again, taking much more time and did this, which I am quite happy with.

http://i393.photobucket.com/albums/pp15/ebtromba/photobucket-5478-1318744207729.jpg

9 shots on paper, 1 round went very high and is on the cardboard. With this ammo/gun/sight combo at this distance I have to use a 6 o'clock hold which I am not at all used to. I believe I can tighten this up with practice in time, and now have the confidence to do so since I know I won't miss paper wide left half the freaking time.

Same story with this dot torture this week.

http://i393.photobucket.com/albums/pp15/ebtromba/photobucket-4883-1319313114946.jpg



I shot the FAST a bunch as well (http://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?2011-improve-my-FAST), the new rear sight position really helped me clean it consistently.

As previously mentioned, every pistol I have ever shot I've shot to the left. I moved the rear sights all the way to the right on 2 of my other Glocks and experienced the same results as above.

I don't know if my eyes see the sights vastly differently than most other humans, or if I have a very consistent flinch, or consistently anticipate, or consistently jerk the shit out of the trigger, or some combination of all of these.

at this point I don't know if I care. Moving the rear sight all the way over has fixed it for me, and that's all the brainpower I wish to expend.

I wish I figured this shit out 9 months ago.

JConn
10-23-2011, 08:26 AM
So now we can call you a right wing extremist...right....right :cool:

http://i1201.photobucket.com/albums/bb345/JConn1/jackslownod.gif

JAD
10-23-2011, 08:59 AM
I have never heard anyone describe the honeymoon effect in shooting, but I believe it can apply to any skilled physical task.
only all the time. Usually when I leave the 1911 to dance with one of the pretty girls (or cheap hookers, in the case of glocks), and then come back after a few months. Yes, Virginia, a 3.5# straight trigger will make you feel like a tactical Apollo. Two sessions later, not so much.

TCinVA
10-24-2011, 10:52 AM
There's some wisdom in the old saying:

If it's stupid, but it works...then it's not stupid.