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voodoo_man
12-22-2015, 03:22 PM
I am going to be typing up and submitting policy changes which I may have to pitch in person to the commish and would really appreciate anyone who can forward me their depts policy on the subject.

Also if anyone has any additional info which would help that would be appreciated as well.


Topics:

Personally owned long guns carried on duty / anti pool rifle argument

Backup gun

Outer vest carriers as part of standard uniform.

Uniform types and the ability to choose what uniform you wear at whatever time of the year - LAPD for example, long sleeve short sleeve can be worn whenever no decision need be made for that change on time of year.

Specfic uniform requirement for court appearance.

Thanks

Lon
12-22-2015, 03:42 PM
Pm me your work email and I'll send ours out to ya.

voodoo_man
12-22-2015, 04:08 PM
PM Sent.

KeeFus
12-22-2015, 04:29 PM
I am going to be typing up and submitting policy changes which I may have to pitch in person to the commish and would really appreciate anyone who can forward me their depts policy on the subject.

Also if anyone has any additional info which would help that would be appreciated as well.


Topics:

Personally owned long guns carried on duty / anti pool rifle argument

Not allowed. Dont get me started.


Backup gun

Has to be .38, 9, 40, or 45. Inspected prior to qualification by Department armorer (me or another guy) and qualify with it.


Outer vest carriers as part of standard uniform.

Not allowed


Uniform types and the ability to choose what uniform you wear at whatever time of the year - LAPD for example, long sleeve short sleeve can be worn whenever no decision need be made for that change on time of year.

They tell us when to change to and from long sleeve. Essentially when the time changes in November we go to long sleeve. In March back to short sleeve. If you have a visible tattoo on your lower arms you are lucky enough to get to wear longsleeves year-round...minus the tie.


Specfic uniform requirement for court appearance.

Uniform of the day. If you are on a motor or bike you wear uniform of the day. Detectives wear suit.

I know this doesnt help you at all but I needed to vent. Thanks! :p

voodoo_man
12-22-2015, 04:54 PM
Not allowed. Dont get me started.



Has to be .38, 9, 40, or 45. Inspected prior to qualification by Department armorer (me or another guy) and qualify with it.



Not allowed



They tell us when to change to and from long sleeve. Essentially when the time changes in November we go to long sleeve. In March back to short sleeve. If you have a visible tattoo on your lower arms you are lucky enough to get to wear longsleeves year-round...minus the tie.



Uniform of the day. If you are on a motor or bike you wear uniform of the day. Detectives wear suit.

I know this doesnt help you at all but I needed to vent. Thanks! :p

Without getting into specifics, I am trying to change a few things and have the ability to do so (which rarely comes around).

Could you please send me your backup gun policy? vdm@vdmsr.com

KeeFus
12-22-2015, 05:18 PM
Without getting into specifics, I am trying to change a few things and have the ability to do so (which rarely comes around).

Could you please send me your backup gun policy? vdm@vdmsr.com

Yes sir!

Lon
12-22-2015, 05:28 PM
I'll send the official policy in email, but here goes:



Topics:

Personally owned long guns carried on duty / anti pool rifle argument

We can carry 223/556 or 308 as long as it meets certain specs. Optics are fine as long as there are BUIS.


Backup gun

.32acp/38/9/40/45 as long as it's approproved by Chief (he lets the head FI decide). Method of carry needs approved as well but it's fairly liberal. Most guys use vest or pocket carry.


Outer vest carriers as part of standard uniform.

Allowed, but only the uniform looking external carrier. Not a molle style.


Uniform types and the ability to choose what uniform you wear at whatever time of the year - LAPD for example, long sleeve short sleeve can be worn whenever no decision need be made for that change on time of year.

We got this approved a couple years ago. We have the option of traditional class B style uniform (S/S or L/S, ties not mandatory with L/S turtle necks are an option) or a uniform polo and bdu style pants.


Specific uniform requirement for court appearance.

Uniform of the day or suit.

rathos
12-23-2015, 01:09 AM
Personally owned long guns carried on duty / anti pool rifle argument
Any known manufacturer. Has to be capable of holding 5 rounds before a reload. Magnified optics are not allowed unless you are a SWAT sniper. The only optics allowed are from Aimpoint, Eotech or Trijicon on company rifles and they have to be co-witnessed. Personally owned weapons are allowed any non magnified optic. The only ammo supplied is .223.


Backup gun
Any known manufacturer .22 and up. Multiple back up guns allowed.


Outer vest carriers as part of standard uniform.
Outer vests are issued. You are allowed to use outer or inner vest.


Uniform types and the ability to choose what uniform you wear at whatever time of the year - LAPD for example, long sleeve short sleeve can be worn whenever no decision need be made for that change on time of year.
We are issued a couple of long sleeve and 4 short sleeved shirts. We can wear either any time of year. Pants are BDU but some do wear the class A wool pants year round and that is ok as well.



Specfic uniform requirement for court appearance.
Patrol uniform or Class A but it has to be a uniform. No suits even for detectives.

TSH
12-23-2015, 01:14 AM
owned long guns carried on duty / anti pool rifle argument

Everyone authorized to carry a long gun typically carries their own. There are pool rifles, but I have yet to meet someone that uses one - as soon as people have received the mandated training, they will purchase (or build) their own rifle. The upper and lower must come from the same company and must be manufactured by Colt, Daniel Defense, LaRue, Lewis Machine and Tool, Rock River, Noveske, Smith & Wesson, Bravo, or Knight's Armament. Just about everyone uses some sort of optic, but we are required to have back up iron sights.


Backup gun

Any semi-auto made by Smith, Beretta, HK, Sig, or Glock chambered in .32 to .45. No single-action autos. Revolvers in .38 +p made by Smith or Ruger. No ankle holsters, though in practice some people use them anyways. Other than that, carry the backup any way you want as long as it is hidden from public view. This is pretty similar to our duty weapon policy. Like just about everyone else, we are issued G22s, but a significant number of people (though not most) just turn it back in and spend the money for their own support gear and weapon. Most of them purchase Sigs and the rest purchase HKs. The armory recommends those two as they have the parts for them. Just about everyone purchasing their own weapon use 9x19.


Outer vest carriers as part of standard uniform.

My agency issues carriers upon request, but it is not automatic. We have a standard carrier with pockets/pouches up front for radio/baton/note pads/magazines/etc. The issued carrier is the only one we are authorized to use, but again, a lot of people purchase their own molle carrier because it is easier to set their gear up the way they want. The department tends to look the other way because the prevailing culture is more or less "use what works for you, just look good." The carrier is this model (http://www.safariland.com/external-overt-carriers/tactical-assault-carrier-fixed-pockets-SCA_TAC1_PKT_V.html#start=1) by Safariland. In my opinion, Molle is preferable. Most people are using the external carriers because it can be taken off at the sub when you are writing and it takes the weight off your lower back.


Uniform types and the ability to choose what uniform you wear at whatever time of the year - LAPD for example, long sleeve short sleeve can be worn whenever no decision need be made for that change on time of year.

Class A, Class B 5.11s, and Polos. In the last three or so years, things have definitely become more casual. Class B uniforms are pretty much authorized for everything. Class A when it makes sense (meeting with command staff, official events, etc.). Long sleeve/short sleeve is up to you, wear what you want. No visible tattoos, but that doesn't have to mean long sleeve, you can wear tattoo covers with a short sleeve uniform. No shorts except for certain assignments. Polo for special assignments. We are only supposed to wear the external carrier with Polos or Class Bs, but in practice some wear it with Class A uniforms. Once again, as long as you are presentable, people will be happy. This amount of flexibility, in my experience, makes a huge positive impact on moral.


Specfic uniform requirement for court appearance.

I am not aware of any policy governing this, but the reason you would show up in anything besides class A or a suit escapes me. I am in a plain clothes assignment, and I still wear Class As to court (when testifying, not if I'm going there for other reasons). Maybe those assigned to undercover assignments would have a reason, but I don't know. After all, I want my side to win, and looking like you are locked on will certainly make an impression with the court/jury. I'm not an expert on this, however. I'm sure there are legitimate reasons to wear a Pendleton and Dickies to court...

voodoo_man
12-23-2015, 05:12 AM
Thanks for the responses, would mind forwarding me your written policy on the topics?

Quick question as well, those of you that have accreditation issues to contend with, do any of the above fall into your accreditation process?

KeeFus
12-23-2015, 05:50 AM
Thanks for the responses, would mind forwarding me your written policy on the topics?

Quick question as well, those of you that have accreditation issues to contend with, do any of the above fall into your accreditation process?

We just reaccredited. No issues with the back-up gun policy. They just reviewed the policy and kept trucking. Im starting to think the assessors, who seem to be active or retired accreditation managers at other far away agencies, are there to get a free trip and a paycheck. Im not a fan of CALEA.

I will email you that policy shortly.

DpdG
12-23-2015, 07:11 AM
My agency is CALEA Gold Standard- AKA super-dee-duper CALEA. We are also the home of a major university, so much of the stuff you're asking about is not allowed, so I can't help much on model policies.

In my experience at the patrol level, most of what the accessors seem to be looking for is compliance with policies, not the substance of said policies. I know some are judged on substance, but most of those are administrative, such as statistical record keeping.

Write a policy that can realistically be complied with and plan for how to provide proof of compliance. Sometimes it's ridiculous how they want proof of compliance with optional policies (officers may carry a ...at their own discretion), but they will want proof that some choose to and some do not.

Lon
12-23-2015, 07:13 AM
Thanks for the responses, would mind forwarding me your written policy on the topics?

Quick question as well, those of you that have accreditation issues to contend with, do any of the above fall into your accreditation process?

Mine do. We've been accredited for years. We have that gold standard whatever bullshit it is as well. Unfortunately. The last time we had an on-site assessment I got into a huge debate with the assessors about use of force policy. We had changed our policy to reflect constitutional standards and got away from the whole use of force continuum bullshit They didn't like the fact that it was strictly constitutional standards because that did not meet one of their accreditation standards. We had to change one word if I remember correctly so that they would sign off on our policy. There's a reason Minnesota does not have any CALEA accredited agencies and that's because they have one standard across the state for use of force and it's the constitutional standard. I wish Ohio would go with that

voodoo_man
12-23-2015, 08:46 AM
Again thanks for the replies.

I want to get as many different policies as possible and see what I can come up with because the response I am going to encounter will be the typical "why is this needed?" "Who else does this and why?" "How is the accreditation process concerned about this?" And a few other issues that I know ill miss.

BehindBlueI's
12-23-2015, 08:57 AM
I am going to be typing up and submitting policy changes which I may have to pitch in person to the commish and would really appreciate anyone who can forward me their depts policy on the subject.

Also if anyone has any additional info which would help that would be appreciated as well.


Topics:

Personally owned long guns carried on duty / anti pool rifle argument

Backup gun

Outer vest carriers as part of standard uniform.

Uniform types and the ability to choose what uniform you wear at whatever time of the year - LAPD for example, long sleeve short sleeve can be worn whenever no decision need be made for that change on time of year.

Specfic uniform requirement for court appearance.

Thanks

Allowed. Brand recommendations are made, but any ar15 type rifle that passes armorer inspection allowed. RDS encouraged, BUIS mandatory. Tavor being evaluated.

Allowed. .380 to .45. Qualify to 7y. A few rules like no SAO.

No vest carrier.

Several options. Tac uniform "Class C". Standard Class B. Hat optional. Sleeve elength mandatory, but 4 months are either/or length.

Generally whatever uniform unless prosecutor requests different.

voodoo_man
12-23-2015, 09:05 AM
Also....pistol mounted flashlight policy - allowed not allowed, holsters, training requirement

jnc36rcpd
12-23-2015, 10:51 AM
I just emailed our firearms policy to you. I believe the sender will be INDEX or some such, but it is me.

Court appearances require business attire, standard patrol or administrative uniform, motorcycle uniform, or bicycle patrol uniform with long pants. For some odd reason, an off duty officer may not wear the motor or bike uniform.

I may have missed it, but I couldn't find anything about outer vest carrier. Our experimental phase is probably going on for most of a decade, bu it doesn't seem anyone has pu pen to paper.

Any questions, please advise.

BehindBlueI's
12-23-2015, 10:54 AM
Also....pistol mounted flashlight policy - allowed not allowed, holsters, training requirement

Allowed. Actually issued to recruits for several years, now.

Chuck Haggard
12-23-2015, 11:23 AM
Not sure I can get copies of the actual policy anymore, even though I wrote most of them, however, at my CALEA accredited agency we allowed;

Personal rifles as part of the program. Did away with pool guns due to proven, and serious, issues with such a program, including guns being broken when assigned to the cars, lack of accountability to PMCS, inventory issues, and the fact that a AR unzeroed is a massive liability in the real world if something bad happens. We started our program with personal guns. Eventually the job had enough money to start buying and issuing ARs.

BUGs were almost wide open. If it met the safety and quality standards of the guns on our pre-approved list, or the rangemaster signed off on it (let's say it's a new model gun and not on the list from last year, like a G43 when they came out...), AND you could pass the KS C-POST qual with it, then you could carry it.
All BUGs had to be concealed unless one was working SWAT, then the BUG could be a second pistol in a vest holster.

Outer vest carriers that matched the uniform shirt (no MOLLE, etc. allowed) were OK, but the officer had to buy them

Class As or a suit for court, although the standard street uniform was OK'd if you were called in off of the street for something.

Short sleeve/long sleeve shirt wear, etc., is now individual officer discretion. When I started on the job long sleeve shirt and tie was mandated in the winter, regardless of the temperature, which sucked badly in abnormal weather like we are having this month.

TC215
12-23-2015, 11:24 AM
PM me your email, I'll send ours.

Lon
12-23-2015, 11:29 AM
Voodoo,

You've got mail at your work email.

voodoo_man
12-23-2015, 11:36 AM
Thanks guys, stuck at court and cant check pd email right now, but will when i get back.


Chuck, could you provide documentation about the issues of the pool rifles? I know that LL posted something but don't know how far that would go for me, better if it came from an LE source.

TC215
12-23-2015, 01:42 PM
Emailed you a couple of our policies to the email address you posted here.

jnc36rcpd
12-23-2015, 02:02 PM
Email is from a printer rather than INDEX. We're CALEA gold as well.

voodoo_man
12-23-2015, 02:21 PM
Got them, much appreciated.

Chuck Haggard
12-23-2015, 09:38 PM
PM me an email and I'll see if I still have the documentation in my files

HCM
12-23-2015, 10:02 PM
Also....pistol mounted flashlight policy - allowed not allowed, holsters, training requirement

Allowed. Issued to some units. Issue light was the Insight M3X, now being replaced with Streamlight TLR's. Personal lights are allowed if the switching is the same as the issued lights ( Rocker Switch - including X300). No pressure switches (DG switches) allowed on pistols. Training is covered in our annual low light shoot including the requirement to have a hand held light for admin and searching.

HCM
12-23-2015, 10:32 PM
I am going to be typing up and submitting policy changes which I may have to pitch in person to the commish and would really appreciate anyone who can forward me their depts policy on the subject.

Also if anyone has any additional info which would help that would be appreciated as well.


Topics:

Personally owned long guns carried on duty / anti pool rifle argument

Backup gun

Outer vest carriers as part of standard uniform.

Uniform types and the ability to choose what uniform you wear at whatever time of the year - LAPD for example, long sleeve short sleeve can be worn whenever no decision need be made for that change on time of year.

Specfic uniform requirement for court appearance.

Thanks

Can help with these two:

Personally owned long guns carried on duty / anti pool rifle argument - No personally owned long guns. Most shotguns are pool guns but all rifles are individually issued and must be qualified with prior to duty carry. Rifles are Colt M-4 14.5" transitioning to 11.5". VTAC padded sling, optics are Eo-Tech 552 transitioning to Aimpoint H-1 on LRP mounts. issued lights are Streamlight TLR-1 long gun lights. Long gun cannot be left in the car overnight unless there is a specific operational need which requires specific written permission.

Backup gun - Yes. All officers are authorized to carry a BUG. Issued Duty Gun is the SIG P229R DAK 40. POW Duty Gun options include SIG 226R DAK, HK USPC LEM 40 and the Glock 17. We issue SIG P-239 DAK 40's and a limited number of Glock 26's and S&W J frames as BUGs to certain units. We have a list of approved Personally Owned Weapons (POW) for duty / off duty / BUG use.

The POW BUGs are:

SIG P-239 .40,
HK P2000sk LEM 40,
Glock 26
and S&W 38/357 J frame revolver.

J Frames can be chambered in .357 but only .38 Special ammunition is allowed. J frames are only permitted for BUG and off duty use.

The BUG must be the same Trigger / action type as the officers primary. The SIG DAK, LEM, Glock and 340/640/442/642 are all treated as DAO so it really only applies to those with grandfathered POW DA/SA SIGs who want a DA/SA P-239.

To carry a POW the gun must be armorer inspected, the officer attends 4 hours of transition training including a qualification and it is added to the officers official records. Officers must qualify with all weapons issued or POW quarterly. Qualification course is the same for all handguns except the S&W J frame.

Chuck Haggard
12-23-2015, 10:45 PM
On my job, for some people, we even issued a BUG or a second pistol.

voodoo_man
12-24-2015, 05:12 AM
Thanks again guys

Vdm@vdmsr.com is a good email for me.

Whiskey_Bravo
07-25-2016, 09:27 PM
Necro post!

I am also now in the process of getting my PD to adopt an individually purchased rifle program for carry on patrol. If any of you guys could also provide me with copies of sample policies I would greatly appreciate it. Voodoo said you guys have some excellent information available. Please PM if you have a policy available and we can exchange emails. Thanks.