when a slide goes into battery while inserting a mag

[Cap]

while inserting a mag firmly, and the slide goes into battery WITHOUT slingshot or slide stop press, do you consider that a good thing, bad thing or malfunctioning pistol?

I've owned a lot of pistols and some would go into battery with firm (note i said firm, not "slammed" ) mag insertion .
However, M&Ps seem to be notorious for it.
I've owned a half dozen or more, and it's my favorite poly, but more of them than not closed the slide when inserting mag

Noticed it on the range too with other M&Ps not belonging to me

all lock slide back after last rnd

Not sure I'd consider it a good thing, but never really considered it a "bad" thing either


thoughts, comments?


..L.T.A.

[Lon]

I personally don't like it. I've seen too many guys rely on that and end up with an empty/slide locked pistol when they need a loaded one.

[41magfan]

I don't particularly care for the unintentional, even if there appears to be no immediate repercussion.

While I have no relevant experience with M&P's, doing that as a deliberate procedure has the huge potential (in some pistol designs) to cause an unintended malfunction when the top round in the magazine becomes dislodged and doesn't feed properly.

The glitch I'm making reference to resembles a stovepipe, but with a loaded round instead of an empty case. I had a couple of guys that did this incessantly, even after multiple warnings and subsequent malfunctions.

[GJM]

while inserting a mag firmly, and the slide goes into battery WITHOUT slingshot or slide stop press, do you consider that a good thing, bad thing or malfunctioning pistol?


..L.T.A.

Depends.

If you can make it auto forward, when you choose, it is OK. If it auto forwards on its own, I think it is a defect.

[GardoneVT]

A small caveat here; true auto forward is very different from "trigger finger induced slide release".

Here's what I mean by that. During a reload my trigger finger would be hard against the frame ; which meant on the P30 I'd be covering the right side slide lock lever. Then I'd insert the new mag and the action of doing so combined with the pressure of my trigger finger against the right side slide lock lever = apparent " auto forward". I say apparent because in fact the slide release was being tripped-just outside of my vision .

I came across this when I last owned a P30. I proved it by testing the following way-if I executed a reload "normally" with my trigger finger against the frame the slide "auto-forwarded". If I pointed my right hand trigger finger away from the frame and slammed in the magazine, the HK stayed locked to the rear every time unless I tripped the release deliberately.It didn't matter how hard I slammed in the mags. The pressure of my trigger finger against the slide lock during reload was enough to send the slide forward as soon as the magazine seated.

Good? Bad? Not for me to say . But there it is.

[23JAZ]

I can make my Gen 4 G19 do that on command. Seat the mag hard enough and the slide drops.

[Jesting Devil]

The glitch I'm making reference to resembles a stovepipe, but with a loaded round instead of an empty case. I had a couple of guys that did this incessantly, even after multiple warnings and subsequent malfunctions.

Can you elaborate on that a little? Are you sure that it is from autoforwarding and not accidental use of the slide release? I've had that exact malfunction 2 or 3 times in my match gun (Gen 3 G34). In my case I'm almost certain it was due to me hitting the slide release an instant too soon as I inserted the magazine resulting in the slide catching the top round strangely because the mag was not fully seated. As it has only happened during a stage of fire, I simply cleared it and moved on and was unable to exactly recreate it later (I didn't try very hard). Every time it has happened I've been sure I accidentally released the slide as the mag started into the mag well instead of releasing it just after its seated but since it was fast and on a timer, my impressions could be wrong. I'd love to hear your thoughts.

The same gun can be made to autoforward with a forceful seating of the magazine which I don't particularly care about one way or the other. If it doesn't happen I use the slide release and if it does, me hitting the slide release anyway doesn't cost anything.

[breakingtime91]

My p2000 does it

[HopetonBrown]

Ken Hackathorn demonstrated to us that if you insert the mag firmky at a slight angle into an M&P it can auto forward.

[S Jenks]

If it wasn't so annoying as a trainer, it would be almost comical when shooters, being accustomed to the auto-forward reload, stare at their pistol while repeatedly slapping the seated magazine in an attempt to make it auto forward.

These are the same 10% who usually forget their eyes or ears, rotate the hood of their holster down with the palm of the hand, attempt to reload at arms length and speed holster after shooting.

[Cookie Monster]

I had a Glock 34 that would do it. It would make me stutter and I would notice that it happened and continue forward or I'd auto pilot and rack the slide and lose a round.

When I do something with a pistol, I'd like it to do it every time.

[Maple Syrup Actual]

I don't like it simply because none of my guns do it in a predictable manner. I think I have one g17 that's done it to me a couple of times. If it's unintentional, then it bugs me.

I don't think it's inherently bad, but I would rather have a gun that does it predictably, or a gun that never does it. I don't like guns that might do it, because then I don't know if they've chambered a round.

If somebody makes a gun that does it 100% of the time, always with a chambered round, as a design feature, then great.

[Luke]

Every gun I've owned does it, but I slam a magazine in there very very hard. I've never been able to reach the slide stop till now (P30), and now I use that and love it. Most of the time it drops anyways but I ALWAYS press the slide stop down. In my mind this is a bad thing. I realized this was a bad thing to rely on when I was in a match (stress) and when I inserted the mag the slide didn't go into battery, guess what I did? I hit the bottom of the mag again!!! Blew my mind. Realizing what I had just done I over handed the slide and went back to work. But this showed me just how flawed my "technique" was.

Ymmv

[41magfan]

Can you elaborate on that a little? Are you sure that it is from autoforwarding and not accidental use of the slide release? I've had that exact malfunction 2 or 3 times in my match gun (Gen 3 G34). In my case I'm almost certain it was due to me hitting the slide release an instant too soon as I inserted the magazine resulting in the slide catching the top round strangely because the mag was not fully seated. As it has only happened during a stage of fire, I simply cleared it and moved on and was unable to exactly recreate it later (I didn't try very hard). Every time it has happened I've been sure I accidentally released the slide as the mag started into the mag well instead of releasing it just after its seated but since it was fast and on a timer, my impressions could be wrong. I'd love to hear your thoughts.

The same gun can be made to autoforward with a forceful seating of the magazine which I don't particularly care about one way or the other. If it doesn't happen I use the slide release and if it does, me hitting the slide release anyway doesn't cost anything.

I can only speak to my own experience with this peculiarity, but it didn't involve the slide stop. The frequency of this occurrence in our particular guns (Glock 21's & 30's) seemed to happen more often when well-worn magazines were involved and occasionally the top round would completely dislodge and be launched through the open slide onto the ground.

I've also seen this occur - much less frequently - with Academy recruits using Glock 17's.

[Jesting Devil]

Interesting. Thank you!

[TiroFijo]

For some reason (good 'ol inertia?), many G19 and G23 do this when reloading seating the mag with a slam, but not a "normal" tap. Perhaps it is easier to align the mag and drive it deeply with no drag with the slightly shorter mags of the glock compacts. On other makes/models is not as usual.
It is mildly annoying to me, since I prefer to do it on purpose and not rely on how hard the mag gets home. In any case, the bullet is chambered without problems when this happen.

[Glenn E. Meyer]

I'd say with my 2nd Gen G19 and newish Gen 4 Glock 17, it happens about 75% of the time. Since I am aware of it not happening, I pay attention to the slide.

PS - happened with both Glock Mags and Pmags with the 17. So these are fairly new.

[Peally]

I consider it a miscellaneous bonus. On the HK45 I press both slide stops (using thumb and trigger finger) when doing slide lock reloads, so if I don't slam it in with enough authority I still drop the slide. I don't rely on it but it's fairly common for it to happen.

[SLG]

I have not seen any downsides to auto-forwarding, assuming that it doesn't make you slower by interrupting your plan. I had it happen a lot with gen3 Glocks, but very rarely with gen4.

Of course, I would not plan on it happening, or hope for it to happen either. If it does, drive on.

[GJM]

The main downside is when it creates a stoppage. I know a stoppage occurred on The Rogers School test to Bill Rogers with a Beretta 92 and Federal AE 147, preventing him from shooting a perfect 125. While that is just for bragging, if it happened for real in a fight, that would be obviously much worse. I have experienced stoppages with a 92 and M&P9 during auto forwarding, and try very hard to avoid making it happen, unless I choose it to happen.

My preference is for it not to happen from normal, vigorous insertion, but to require some extra effort on the rear part of the mag during insertion, as it typical for me with a Glock.

[ubervic]

I don't particularly care for the unintentional, even if there appears to be no immediate repercussion.

While I have no relevant experience with M&P's, doing that as a deliberate procedure has the huge potential (in some pistol designs) to cause an unintended malfunction when the top round in the magazine becomes dislodged and doesn't feed properly.

The glitch I'm making reference to resembles a stovepipe, but with a loaded round instead of an empty case. I had a couple of guys that did this incessantly, even after multiple warnings and subsequent malfunctions.

THIS.
I discovered this auto-slide-forward capability on M&PFS but never liked it---it was not a reliable means of forwarding the slide into battery, and the round would not reliably feed properly when it did.

I believe a gun should operate only and always by the operator's specific, deliberate intent, and such should be reliable and repeatable. This auto-forwarding was only one of several reasons why I sold the M&P.

[nwhpfan]

If it does it all the time it is a good thing. It is faster. Getting back to the shooting is most important. A true auto forward is just that. You insert the mag, the slide goes forward automatically. If you don't need to waste time hitting the slide release or racking the slide, that is a good thing.

Now....if it does not happen all the time, if it is a combination of pressure on the slide release and it doesn't always work, that is not ideal.

I have never, ever, ever, inserted a magazine and “then” had the slide auto forward and there not be round not be in the chamber...ever!!!! In fact, absent a malfunctioning broken magazines I don’t think that is even possible.

I have done it myself (only recently with a gun that doesn't always auto forward for me), and seen other people prematurely engage the slide release and send the slide home on an empty chamber. That is not ideal and was my response going from a gun that "always" auto forwarded to one that didn't.

With HK’s and M&P I would run a gun to auto forward and I do think that is a bonus feature and a good thing.

[Surf]

As a generalization, the negatives from what I see of those who auto-forward as a default is this...

They are generally not as smooth, efficient nor as fast on the reload as they could be. They tend to be more deliberate (slower) on how they line up the mag for the insertion, deliberate (slower) on how they initially place the mag into the magwell and they then tend to hover for a moment before they do a harder insertion in the magwell than is needed. In other words they are slower overall in their reload due mostly to the lack of efficiency than if they were to use a more efficient and a deliberate slide stop method.

Then if for some reason the weapon fails to auto-forward, they often end up slapping the bottom of the mag or running the slide with an overhand or slingshot, but generally end up re-slapping the bottom of the mag. Not so funny when a round pops up out of the mag and causes a worse problem. I also do not tend to approve of the angle of the muzzle of the weapon because many guys will hold the mag and weapon in a certain orientation to get a reliable auto-forward. This orientation that I often see is not what I accept.

I have had a few people say that their pistol ALWAYS auto-forwards not matter what, particularly Sig and M&P guys. I then take their pistol, run it and show them that it does not have to do it. Which usually leads into me teaching them a more efficient reload to include a separate or deliberate slide stop method. With ~100% success all have become more efficient and faster on their overall reload.

Seen many failures to feed and the infamous flinch and click on a dead chamber. Rounds popping out the top, or base plates coming off and dumping spring, follower and ammo while not as common I have seen it enough. On the good side, it usually only takes someone with one experience of a base plate coming off to change their bad habit. Generally this phenomenon is not seen on a Glock as it is not so easy to get the base plate off.

Most if not all auto-forwarders perceive themselves to be faster. I am 100% convinced, not 99.9% convinced, that I can take any person who auto-forwards and make them more efficient and faster in a very very short period of time. I am just as fast with a correct slide stop reload as I am with a pure speed reload where I just dump a partial mag with round in chamber and insert a new mag. I can get people very near or to that point with a bit more time.

[agksimon]

I can make my Gen 4 G19 do that on command. Seat the mag hard enough and the slide drops.

Both of my M&P's are also on command. I love it for IDPA, as it shaves off a fraction of a second. I've never had any malfunctions doing this.

[Sero Sed Serio]

My M&Ps could do it on command, and if I wailed on my training G19 (didn't want to beat on my carry gun like that), it would do it pretty consistently.

I once had an extremely cocky defense attorney who was representing a young man who had negligently shot his father in the arm with an M&P and a perfect storm of ignorance and screw ups (Glock shooter trying to field-strip dad's M&P Compact with a mag safety...thought he had to pull the trigger like his Glock, but needed a magazine inserted to do so + blindly grabbing a carry mag full of .40 hollowpoints + poor muzzle awareness as he puled said trigger = bad day for all), and the attorney tried to convince me that the gun had slam fired, and that "there are articles all over the Internet about this particular brand of gun," so therefore the case should be dismissed. I found the next minute and a half to be very amusing as I educted him on the differences between auto-forwarding and slam fires, M&P safety mechanisms, and which of those M&Ps were actually known for. I don't believe he found said minute and a half as amusing as I did. His client took a plea (but one that didn't ruin his life forever, and still allowed him to vote against Obama, which was one of his biggest concerns...)

[Wheeler]

Super Dave says it's bad for the magazine followers as it tends to wear them out.

[Trigger]

I found that I can control auto forwarding, depending on how I seat the magazine. If I seat the magazine with my left palm at a 90° to the barrel axis, the slide will stay retracted and engaged with the slide stop. If I seat the magazine with my left foot palm at a 45 degree angle aiming forwards with my hand towards the muzzle I will get the slide to auto forward every time. With a little practice I can control it reliably. If you think about it from an inertia point of view it is like a mini slide-slingshot. When you seat the magazine at a 45° for angle with your palm, you are causing the frame of the pistol to move forward while the slide stays in position momentarily. This momentarily release of pressure on the slide stop and causes the recoil spring to send the slide forward. If you want the slide to auto forward, seat the mag base pad at an angle forward towards the muzzle. If not, seat it perpendicular to the slide. Your choice.

[NCmtnman]

My HK P2000 would occasionally do it during qualifications if I were to seat a magazine a little too hard. It was certainly not reliable and I cannot say that it was not partly due to magazines that had a combination of 5,000 rounds through them and dropped on concrete their entire life. Was I also touching the slide release? Possibly. What I am for sure about was that the occurrence of the slide auto-forwarding essentially stopped when I received new magazines. Also, I was certainly slower when it would go forward with a hard seat. My brain would catch it and stumble for a moment. I much prefer to do it myself whether using the slide release or an overhand method.

[Beat Trash]

Our first issue of M&P9's were from the first 1,200 M&P9's produced. Auto forwarding was rarely seen. We issued new guns about 2-3 years ago, and this patch of M&P9's will auto forward if you look at them wrong. The number one issue seen in training over the last couple of years is that when the gun auto forwards during the reloading process, it will pick up a round and load it into the chamber. Most of the time. But not always.

There were enough instances of empty chambers that our range staff now teaches that if your gun auto forwards, to rack the slide again. If you eject a live round, oh well. The thought is that they prefer the officer eject a live round than to continue into an engagement, discover their gun didn't fire and loose time diagnosing that it's an empty chamber. Yes I know that we're only talking about an additional second or two to realize your gun didn't fire, then tap rack bang. But we're not talking shooting a match and loosing a few points. We're talking about an OIS incident where loosing an extra couple of seconds could be catastrophic.

I was highly impressed with the M&P9 during the time I carried my first issued gun (6 years or so). But now, not so much. The auto forwarding when you don't expect it to is one of many things that have turned me off of the platform. Still have to carry one when on the City's time. On my own time, not any more. . .

[Jim Watson]

My Plastic M&P will auto-forward with my normal reload move.
It has properly chambered the top round every time but one.
That might alarm some people and make them condemn whatever technique or gun configuration leads to auto-forward. But I have seen enough blown reloads by conventional means of punching the slide stop or yanking the slide that I figure the slide lock reload is a hazardous procedure no matter how you go about it.

A friend's M&P Pro is not as reliable, but fresh magazine springs helped a lot.

My SA 9mm would auto-forward with its light factory recoil spring but a couple of pounds heavier stopped that. No problem, my Colt and Caspian 1911s don't do it so it is not missed.

My CZ75 will often but not always auto-forward. When it does, it feeds.

A local Glockmonger says he can round the edge of the slide stop to produce repeatable auto-forward.


Now all we need is a pistol that will automatically drop an empty magazine like a Garand spits out an empty clip. "Ping!"