Skill at arms

[Kyle Reese]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b0JOuqmrpn0&feature=youtu.be

I can't wait to train with this guy. I have to ask if he allows SERPAs and a Taurus Judge in the class.

[Luke]

That has got to bring the suck shooting fixed steel at 1 yard.

[GardoneVT]

I suppose I'm just not integrated enough to tactically evolve so as to apply the tangential threat focus necessary for kinetic processing of ballistic integrity at speed whilst stationary in a threat reduction fixed foot position envelope.

However, one hopes he's tactically evolved enough to dial 911 when he puts a bullet in his kneecap by accident.

[LSP552]

He needs a beard.....

[Trooper224]

I suppose I'm just not integrated enough to tactically evolve so as to apply the tangential threat focus necessary for kinetic processing of ballistic integrity at speed whilst stationary in a threat reduction fixed foot position envelope.

However, one hopes he's tactically evolved enough to dial 911 when he puts a bullet in his kneecap by accident.

Calm down Travis.............

[olstyn]

That has got to bring the suck shooting fixed steel at 1 yard.

No joke. Maybe he's using frangibles? Even so, it sets a poor example for any viewers who might not understand the safety concerns.

[GardoneVT]

No joke. Maybe he's using frangibles? Even so, it sets a poor example for any viewers who might not understand the safety concerns.

Then there's the classic "sweeping oneself with the finger on trigger" tactic.

[RJ]

That's legit training, bro. All the real operator tactical dudes are wearing bicycle helmet rigs now. Sheesh.

[Hambo]

That has got to bring the suck shooting fixed steel at 1 yard.

Word. I suppose the return fire off the steel simulates a real gunfight.

[David S.]

He developed that technique. allbyhimself.

[ken grant]

I have not trained with him but there are lots of reports from people who have and I have not heard anyone say any thing bad and a lot of them attend his classes two or more times.

Shooting steel close is no problem if the steel is angled to either side of the shooter.
Watch this vid and you can see where the bullet splash goes.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XLyPheusk58&list=PL8C671525E7392F5E

[JodyH]

I see zero confident, competent, professional gun handling.
I see a poorly executed, lazy draw in the first video then it goes downhill from there with his "technique" that is not only slow and unsafe but is tactically retarded as well.
The second video, I made it as far as the first shots from the "students" and then the dangling handgun method of target assessment before I gave up.
What I saw was lazy, ignorant and unsound dirt shooting, not training by any definition.

[TGS]

...embedded video...

What the fuck did I even just watch......

[Clobbersaurus]

This one is mesmerizing...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NAgnRVr1OwY

I couldn't count the safety violations in this one....finger on trigger, handling pistol while buddy down range......

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hllh5H8sWhM

OMG...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cJ9NuDCxA0A

[Beat Trash]

Why is he wearing a bicycle helmet when he shoots his drill?

And to think, all these years, I've been doing it wrong...

[MVS]

What the fuck did I even just watch......

Thanks to you I had to watch.

Make your play?
Why do they not reholster? Even when the "instructor" walks in front of them.
Why does the one guy take out his mag after every run?
Dilated pupil?

I know it is easy to pick apart this kind of stuff when watching from a computer, but dang.

[Kevin B.]

I liked the ballet move with the non-firing hand in the inquartada video.:rolleyes:

[MVS]

I liked the ballet move with the non-firing hand in the inquartada video.:rolleyes:

I have seen people demo that where it didn't look quite so retarded. Well at least it didn't seem like it at the time. Looking back,,,,hmmm

[Lon]

In re: Inquartata video

4993

About the only intelligent thing in that video was the idea to step off line.

[RJ]

I liked the ballet move with the non-firing hand in the inquartada video.:rolleyes:

Gave it 8/10, myself. I deducted points as the non-firing hand fingers were not artfully extended in a graceful arch whilst shooting.

Otherwise, :notbad:

[Mr_White]

Omg I have known of Brownie on the internet since forever but never seen or heard him before.

[JodyH]

Yup... Brownie, the man, myth and legend all rolled into a giant ball of WTF.

[jondoe297]

That "over the shoulder" crap looked like C.A.R., only dumber.

[Lon]

That "over the shoulder" crap looked like C.A.R., only dumber.

That's what I thought as well.

[TheRoland]

Make your play?

It's the old west version of "bust 'em". It's what Arizona Rangers do in Marty Robbins songs.

[Hatchetman]

Short bus helmet is all too congruent with short bus vids.

[Tamara]

Ah, Brownie... He's the gift that just keeps giving (https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?10629-First-Time-I-ve-Seen-This-Tactic-Promoted&highlight=brownie). It's good to see he's still wearing his Special Outside Helmet.

[Tamara]

Would pay good money to see that video re-shot with Brownie holding a sims gun and an ECQC junkie playing the part of the steel target.

[BehindBlueI's]

Threat assessment is for suckers.

Support hands are for suckers.

Sights are for suckers.

"Running" in front of people and shooting them as you run by, totally useful in the asymmetrical battlespace when maximum terminal performance focus is required.

[Tamara]

"Running" in front of people and shooting them as you run by, totally useful in the asymmetrical battlespace when maximum terminal performance focus is required.

I always liked the Brownie threads because he wrote like a cross between an Eighties Mack Bolan novel and a Fifties cop movie. Lots of mooks and skells and other obsolescent jargon.

EDIT: It's been a while since I've seen someone use "gunsel (https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/gunsel)" in a sentence.

[Mr_White]

It's good to see he's still wearing his Special Outside Helmet.

I can see why he needs it.

[LOKNLOD]

"Integrated Threat Focused LLC" Glad to see Rich_Jenkins's naming tool is getting used.

[voodoo_man]

"Running" in front of people and shooting them as you run by, totally useful in the asymmetrical battlespace when maximum terminal performance focus is required.

Totally...I mean...who doesn't think that is not superior?

[BehindBlueI's]

Ok, ok, ok. I've decided that I can't be REALLY COOL unless I invent my own tactical tactics for tactically dominating the asymmetrical battlespace utilizing tactical tactics of tacticalness. Integrating solutions from the hardware, software, and firmware arenas will create modern tactical tactics with tactics and tactical gear.

My first tactical tactic requires full integration of my proprietary TLBCE (tactical lower body concealing equipment) and the following tactically superior tactic which you learn in my tactical training dojo.

To tactically engage a tango at your six without the time eating requirement of repositioning and realigning your tactical torso in a circumnavigational movement, you will vertically bend at your Power Joint* (TM) so as to achieve optical acquisition of your target while your Ocular Stereo Vision Instruments** (TM) are tactically relocated to the battlespace between your Jointed Mobility Enhancers*** (TM). While optically locked on the tango at your six, the Sudden and Violent Contraction of your Power Joint**** (TM) will rupture the pre-distressed Tactical Seam in your Tactical pants, exposing your HBEAAVFB^ to your six occupying Tango. The tactical exposure of your HBEAAVFB will reset the Six Tango's OODA loop presenting you with maximum tactical advantage for trigger pulling resulting in maximum terminal performance.^^

TLBCE will be available in Tuxedo Black, Battleship Gray, Matte Black, Dark Black, Urban Black, and Dirty Girl Pink Camo. Taint holster for Six Tango Shooting optional.




*waist
**eyes
*** knees
****Bending over quickly
^ Hairy Brown Eye Acting As Visual FlashBang

^^Bend over real fast, split your pants, then shoot between your legs at the stunned bad guy who's frantically trying not to have a staring contest with your backside.

[voodoo_man]

Ok, ok, ok. I've decided that I can't be REALLY COOL unless I invent my own tactical tactics for tactically dominating the asymmetrical battlespace utilizing tactical tactics of tacticalness. Integrating solutions from the hardware, software, and firmware arenas will create modern tactical tactics with tactics and tactical gear.

My first tactical tactic requires full integration of my proprietary TLBCE (tactical lower body concealing equipment) and the following tactically superior tactic which you learn in my tactical training dojo.

To tactically engage a tango at your six without the time eating requirement of repositioning and realigning your tactical torso in a circumnavigational movement, you will vertically bend at your Power Joint* (TM) so as to achieve optical acquisition of your target while your Ocular Stereo Vision Instruments** (TM) are tactically relocated to the battlespace between your Jointed Mobility Enhancers*** (TM). While optically locked on the tango at your six, the Sudden and Violent Contraction of your Power Joint**** (TM) will rupture the pre-distressed Tactical Seam in your Tactical pants, exposing your HBEAAVFB^ to your six occupying Tango. The tactical exposure of your HBEAAVFB will reset the Six Tango's OODA loop presenting you with maximum tactical advantage for trigger pulling resulting in maximum terminal performance.^^

TLBCE will be available in Tuxedo Black, Battleship Gray, Matte Black, Dark Black, Urban Black, and Dirty Girl Pink Camo. Taint holster for Six Tango Shooting optional.




*waist
**eyes
*** knees
****Bending over quickly
^ Hairy Brown Eye Acting As Visual FlashBang

^^Bend over real fast, split your pants, then shoot between your legs at the stunned bad guy who's frantically trying not to have a staring contest with your backside.

-1 for not using the word "operate"
-5 for not referring to yourself as an "operator"
-10 for not including kryptek

[Tamara]

I think y'all have got Travis Haley and Brownie confused. o.O

[JodyH]

I think y'all have got Travis Haley and Brownie confused. o.O
Most coins have two sides ya know.

[BehindBlueI's]

Most coins have two sides ya know.

And an edge.

That's where *I LIVE*...on that EDGE!!! Operating at the tip of the spear as a trigger puller...tactically!!!

[JAD]

I would very much like a ten hour loop of the Bowie waving.

[Trooper224]

I have not trained with him but there are lots of reports from people who have and I have not heard anyone say any thing bad and a lot of them attend his classes two or more times.

Lots of people shop at Wal-Mart but that doesn't make them marketing experts.

[Trooper224]

Small point of order Mr. Speaker: Inquartata is Italian, not french. I was a fencer for over fifteen years. After watching that, I'm almost ashamed to admit it.

[MVS]

Lots of people shop at Wal-Mart but that doesn't make them marketing experts.

Yep, (not a real tactical word) when I see reviews on classes I like to know if the student has anything to compare it to. Like a friend of mine says, "they're students, they don't know anything, if you tell them its good and sell it well, they will think its good". Now he isn't saying this meaning we should take advantage of people, but usually in reference to someone we know teaches crap but people like it anyway.

[Hambo]

I watched a few seconds of several of the videos and from that I feel qualified to say that is some seriously fucked up shit. The only good thing I can say is that he has a nice looking bowie...but he ruined it with the gay bowie kata thing.

[JAD]

I was thinking it needed techno music. He could be the new Techoviking, but, um, different and/or special.

Dude, take that back or the technoviking might hear.

He haunts my dreams.

[RJ]

"Integrated Threat Focused LLC" Glad to see Rich_Jenkins's naming tool is getting used.

...and yall thought I was kidding...:cool:

[RJ]

Small point of order Mr. Speaker: Inquartata is Italian, not french. I was a fencer for over fifteen years. After watching that, I'm almost ashamed to admit it.

Thanks, I wondered about that.

My son took classes for two years. I did the 'fencing dad' duty, carting him around to matches. It might be something I actually get back into one day...

[JodyH]

I was thinking it needed techno music. He could be the new Techoviking (https://youtu.be/wv6hz6NCL5M?t=3m), but, um, different and/or special.
Did someone say Brownie theme music?


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zjedLeVGcfE

[JodyH]

Anyone else here (except Tamara) remember when Brownie and 7677 (I thinks that was his forum name) were Gods to half of Glocktalk?

[Lon]

Anyone else here (except Tamara) remember when Brownie and 7677 (I thinks that was his forum name) were Gods to half of Glocktalk?

I remember 7677. GT was the first forum I really visited. Didn't last long. Got pretty tired of being called a JBT on a regular basis.

[BehindBlueI's]

http://waterfordwhispersnews.com/2015/07/20/where-are-they-now-techno-viking/

The things I learn here.

[ranger]

I always liked the Brownie threads because he wrote like a cross between an Eighties Mack Bolan novel and a Fifties cop movie. Lots of mooks and skells and other obsolescent jargon.

EDIT: It's been a while since I've seen someone use "gunsel (https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/gunsel)" in a sentence.

Wow - I have not even thought about a Mack Bolan novel in a very long time - was seventies for me.......

[voodoo_man]

Anyone else here (except Tamara) remember when Brownie and 7677 (I thinks that was his forum name) were Gods to half of Glocktalk?

http://image.slidesharecdn.com/130505sm25bewareofsheepimitations-matthew715-23-130527131454-phpapp02/95/130505-sm-25-beware-of-sheep-imitations-matthew-7-1523-5-638.jpg

[gringop]

I always liked the Brownie threads because he wrote like a cross between an Eighties Mack Bolan novel and a Fifties cop movie. Lots of mooks and skells and other obsolescent jargon.

EDIT: It's been a while since I've seen someone use "gunsel (https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/gunsel)" in a sentence.

You mopes better ease up on the digs at Brownie or he's liable to to hand out little chin music, not withstanding the molls and peepers here. And if that aint enough to put you on the straight and narrow, if you waltz with him, he can run that roscoe like Man o' War ran the Preakness. And I'm not talking horse feathers.

So, a word to the wise, ixnay on the ormouthpay of Brownie, unless you want to dance with some curmudgeonly Cro-Magnons from Chi-town.

Kid Gringop (from St Lo)

[Tamara]

Anyone else here (except Tamara) remember when Brownie and 7677 (I thinks that was his forum name) were Gods to half of Glocktalk?

Great. All that therapy undone in a sentence. :/

[NETim]

Would pay good money to see that video re-shot with Brownie holding a sims gun and an ECQC junkie playing the part of the steel target.

I'm thinking sumdood who has trouble spelling ECQC would blow up Mr. Brownie's scenario.

[Trooper224]

You mopes better ease up on the digs at Brownie or he's liable to to hand out little chin music, not withstanding the molls and peepers here. And if that aint enough to put you on the straight and narrow, if you waltz with him, he can run that roscoe like Man o' War ran the Preakness. And I'm not talking horse feathers.

So, a word to the wise, ixnay on the ormouthpay of Brownie, unless you want to dance with some curmudgeonly Cro-Magnons from Chi-town.

Kid Gringop (from St Lo)

Winner of the evenings interwebz award.

[Chuck Haggard]

I wish people wouldn't click on retarded you tube videos and sites, it makes those idiots money and encourages further fuckery

[1slow]

Some years ago my wife and I were present for a Brownie class. We were invited and did not know who he was.
Wife's comment was STUPID HUMAN TRICKS ! Class members without much skill thought it was great. He made them feel good rather than teaching anything useful.
A round left the range and Sheriff deputy arrived, no one was hurt.
2 stupidest things I remember (of many) shooting inverted from a wrestlers neck bridge (round that left the range) and holding the pistol in 1 hand and banging the other forefinger back and fourth for rapid area fire. WTF !!!

I am very grateful to have had better instruction so as to know I was seeing idiocy in action.

[LSP552]

I was thinking it needed techno music. He could be the new Techoviking (https://youtu.be/wv6hz6NCL5M?t=3m), but, um, different and/or special.

I can't belive I clicked that link.......

[GardoneVT]

I wish people wouldn't click on retarded you tube videos and sites, it makes those idiots money and encourages further fuckery

I've reported the video as unsafe spam to YouTube. Perhaps this will motivate folks to think before they upload a steaming turd of a video.

For those who think this is perhaps too drastic, I only say this; if knowledge represents power to do good, ignorance is the root of many tragic errors. Someone without any quality guidance in guns may assume this guy is someone to follow. Then we see them at your local range...or worse, facing a hostile actor at 3am with seriously bad concepts.

[Tamara]

Class members without much skill thought it was great. He made them feel good rather than teaching anything useful.

Yup (https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?10629-First-Time-I-ve-Seen-This-Tactic-Promoted&p=183360&viewfull=1#post183360). That's pretty much my conclusion, too.

[45dotACP]

Having seen all sorts of strange stuff in the E.R. that people don't wanna talk about, I think the Bowie kata could explain a lot of it.

I think the saying goes something like "Directions unclear, sliced off my dick."

Sent from my VS876 using Tapatalk

[HopetonBrown]

I had a girlfriend who moved from a Soviet Bloc country to the US before the fall of the Iron Curtain (she said they didn't like Chosen People there and would let them leave). The first thing she wanted to do when she got to American was to have a hamburger. She went to McDonald's. It was the best hamburger she ever had. The moral to my story is if someone has only ever had 1 trainer, they'll tend to think that 1 trainer is wonderful.

[voodoo_man]

I had a girlfriend who moved from a Soviet Bloc country to the US before the fall of the Iron Curtain (she said they didn't like Chosen People there and would let them leave). The first thing she wanted to do when she got to American was to have a hamburger. She went to McDonald's. It was the best hamburger she ever had. The moral to my story is if someone has only ever had 1 trainer, they'll tend to think that 1 trainer is wonderful.

...I think the moral of the story is don't trust your government to tell you what kind of hamburger you should eat.

[scw2]

She went to McDonald's. It was the best hamburger she ever had. The moral to my story is if someone has only ever had 1 trainer, they'll tend to think that 1 trainer is wonderful.

It wasn't the taste of the McDonald's burger that was so good. It was the taste of freedom!

[GardoneVT]

The moral to my story is if someone has only ever had 1 trainer, they'll tend to think that 1 trainer is wonderful.

Also, the margin for what constitutes "wonderful shooting" is rather low.

In my last class I clocked a 4.18 Bill Drill time at 3 yards, clean.Caleb should have brought a calendar, not a shot timer.

Yet I'm considered a shooting Yoda at my gun range. I've also turned down several requests to "teach" visiting shooters. It would not be difficult for me to make a training website, set up some targets at 7 yards and mask my totally unqualified shooting skill with buzzwords and BS.

How many folks out there got one compliment too many and thought "huzzah! I can hit a target at 10 yards, so now I can train others!".

[Chuck Haggard]

I can't belive I clicked that link.......

Technoviking is the man! You better recognize!

[Glenn E. Meyer]

While I do not like Amy Schumer at all (blah!) - if you sit through this video: http://www.nbc.com/saturday-night-live/video/tina-amys-dope-squad/2957167?onid=148621#vc148621=1

about two minutes in - Amy reminds me of the Bowie guy in post 16. Same technique but with some of those numb-ducks (or whatever).

Amy and Chuck Schumer are cousins and gun banners, so this is no endorsement of her but a comment on how fiction duplicates training videos.

[Al T.]

Anyone else here (except Tamara) remember when Brownie and 7677 (I thinks that was his forum name) were Gods to half of Glocktalk?

Not on GT, but those two wandered into TFL and THR for a slightly less satisfying experience. Hope to never see either posting anywhere again..

[RJ]

Not on GT, but those two wandered into TFL and THR for a slightly less satisfying experience. Hope to never see either posting anywhere again..

Well, this was 5 minutes I won't get back, but I did find this. (http://www.thehighroad.org/archive/index.php/t-14907.html)

Fascinating.

[John Hearne]

Anyone else here (except Tamara) remember when Brownie and 7677 (I thinks that was his forum name) were Gods to half of Glocktalk?

Regrettably....

[SouthNarc]

Oh no, not Brownie...





Why is he wearing a bicycle helmet when he shoots his drill?




He's got a prescription for that dude.

[ken grant]

As I stated , I have never trained with Brownie but plenty has and nearly all were pleased.
Guys here may joke about his training but he does teach proven methods that have worked in the past.

His helmet has a camera mounted to show POV and seems to work well.

[Maple Syrup Actual]

Having seen all sorts of strange stuff in the E.R. that people don't wanna talk about, I think the Bowie kata could explain a lot of it.

I think the saying goes something like "Directions unclear, sliced off my dick."

Sent from my VS876 using Tapatalk

I'm stealing that and using it as a pat response for all stupid training I see: du/somd

[GardoneVT]

As I stated , I have never trained with Brownie but plenty has and nearly all were pleased.

Did you not see the blatant safety violations in the original video back on page one?

If "Brownie" handled his gun on my square range in that fashion, he'd be shown the door. Someone like that is not safe to shoot around, to say nothing about being "an instructor".

[Kyle Reese]

As I stated , I have never trained with Brownie but plenty has and nearly all were pleased.
Guys here may joke about his training but he does teach proven methods that have worked in the past.

His helmet has a camera mounted to show POV and seems to work well.

What methods?


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[TGS]

Guys here may joke about his training but he does teach proven methods that have worked in the past.

1) Proven methods? What?

2) "..that have worked in the past." In addition to the phrase, "correlation does not equal causation," there's sumdood here who has a really good saying, "fortuitous outcomes reinforce bad tactics."

[JAD]

Technoviking is the man! You better recognize!

Chuck, I think you're qualified to teach The Point. I think it's a valid less lethal.

[ken grant]

What methods?


Fairbairn -Sykes , Prewar China and British Commanders
Applegate , OSS WW2
Quick Kill , S.E. Asia
Byce , LEO

All proven in combat , not games , not clocks or cardboard targets.

[Kyle Reese]

Fairbairn -Sykes , Prewar China and British Commanders
Applegate , OSS WW2
Quick Kill , S.E. Asia
Byce , LEO

All proven in combat , not games , not clocks or cardboard targets.

Well, we could say that TTP's are constantly evolving, improving and modernizing, and teaching point-shooting (contact / retention positions excluded) isn't something that you'll find knowledgeable and reputable defensive handgun instructors doing very much in 2015.

[Luke]

http://www.pointshooting.com/1awhyqk.htm (http://www.dumpaday.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/the-funny-nope-10.jpg)

".. I haven't used sights on pistols since 82.."

[voodoo_man]

http://www.pointshooting.com/1awhyqk.htm (http://www.dumpaday.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/the-funny-nope-10.jpg)

".. I haven't used sights on pistols since 82.."

I wonder when that was written because given todays lawsuit climate and the obvious issue of not using your sights will result in you either hitting somone innocent, missing your target and or getting killed.

Ive dealt with the point shooting crowd, interesting bunch.

[JodyH]

Fairbairn -Sykes , Prewar China and British Commanders
Applegate , OSS WW2
Quick Kill , S.E. Asia
Byce , LEO

All proven in combat , not games , not clocks or cardboard targets.
No...

5016

[45dotACP]

Fairbairn -Sykes , Prewar China and British Commanders
Applegate , OSS WW2
Quick Kill , S.E. Asia
Byce , LEO

All proven in combat , not games , not clocks or cardboard targets.

Right then...so material that is no more recent than 40ish years old :rolleyes:

Let us go over what was going about the world near the end of the 1960's:
-"The Wild Bunch", "True Grit", and "Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid." were released (awesome movies btw)
-The popular musicians of the time were the Rolling Stones, Aquarius, CCR, Neil Diamond, Marvin Gaye, Elvis Presley, Stevie Wonder and Johnny Cash.
-America was introduced to the Toyota Corolla!
-We were also introduced to "the Brady Bunch"
-President Johnson and then...President Nixon!
-A 27 year old named Qaddafi rises to power in Libya
-"One small step for man, one giant leap for mankind"
-Jennifer Aniston (bless her heart) was born.

aaaaand, my mom was 12 years old...

Fortunately, actual progression in training techniques for firearms happened as well! As it turns out, there are people who successfully use their sights in violent encounters today and lay the hurt on bad people with the most modern and most efficient ways to get accurate hits on target. Most of that training (conducted by the best warriors in the world today, who have been in actual combat) appears to be based around the use of sights...but then again, maybe guys like Larry Vickers (Delta Force), Frank Proctor (Army Special Forces), Kyle Lamb (Army Special Operations) have it all wrong.

I mean, I like CCR and the Wild Bunch is awesome.

[azqkr]

What an interesting thread.

[Kyle Reese]

Maybe at your skill level, but not Brownie's. Maybe you can schedule a private class with him.

5019

[Maple Syrup Actual]

Personally I don't have a blanket rule against shooting without using the sights.

I do avoid shooting without either a solid peripheral index (which I can get from low ready) or body index (which I can get from the 2). Or, I guess, some combination, like from compressed low ready where I can get a bit of peripheral vision on the gun and a bit of rehearsed body index.

I don't necessarily object to shooting from the hip if it works for you at 3m, say. If you want to practice it and you can nail down an index that'll give you hits on a 12" circle every time, hell, knock yourself out.

I do think that you better be pretty freaking lights-out before you mess around with it, though. I don't think body index shooting is a basic skill. You're slinging unsighted lead around. To me, this is the equivalent of running snake and box drills with human pylons.

And if you're getting, or staying, on the trigger when you're not on target...you don't meet my personal definition of "should be doing this".

[RJ]

Welcome to PF, Mr. Brown. :cool:

Now, see here, this is why we need a popcorn gif. :cool:

[Kyle Reese]

Personally I don't have a blanket rule against shooting without using the sights.

I do avoid shooting without either a solid peripheral index (which I can get from low ready) or body index (which I can get from the 2). Or, I guess, some combination, like from compressed low ready where I can get a bit of peripheral vision on the gun and a bit of rehearsed body index.

I don't necessarily object to shooting from the hip if it works for you at 3m, say. If you want to practice it and you can nail down an index that'll give you hits on a 12" circle every time, hell, knock yourself out.

I do think that you better be pretty freaking lights-out before you mess around with it, though. I don't think body index shooting is a basic skill. You're slinging unsighted lead around. To me, this is the equivalent of running snake and box drills with human pylons.

And if you're getting, or staying, on the trigger when you're not on target...you don't meet my personal definition of "should be doing this".

So basically "see what you need to see".

[voodoo_man]

Maybe at your skill level, but not Brownie's. Maybe you can schedule a private class with him.

True, i need to get into one of his classes, where do i sign up?

[Maple Syrup Actual]

Yeah, sorry if someone already explained that at great length. I'm on my phone and could easily have missed some points.

[High Pockets]

I wouldn't want to be a teacher of anyone of you folks .Look for the speck in your own eye before you cast stones!

[TGS]

Fairbairn -Sykes , Prewar China and British Commanders
Applegate , OSS WW2
Quick Kill , S.E. Asia
Byce , LEO

All proven in combat , not games , not clocks or cardboard targets.

So, stuff that's been discarded or massively changed.....two, three, four times over since then.....by dudes in combat because of unquestionable improvements.

Thanks.

[GardoneVT]

So, stuff that's been discarded or massively changed.....two, three, four times over since then.....by dudes in combat because of unquestionable improvements.

Thanks.

I'm selling my guns. This little Greek beauty was battle proven in Thermopylae after all.

http://www.coldweapon.org/pics/phalanx_sword.jpg

[ken grant]

" but then again, maybe guys like Larry Vickers (Delta Force), Frank Proctor (Army Special Forces), Kyle Lamb (Army Special Operations) have it all wrong. "
'
Lots of difference being in military and a citizen carrying on the street.
Most of the time the citizen has to start behind the curve in reaction to a threat.

[voodoo_man]

" but then again, maybe guys like Larry Vickers (Delta Force), Frank Proctor (Army Special Forces), Kyle Lamb (Army Special Operations) have it all wrong. "
'
Lots of difference being in military and a citizen carrying on the street.
Most of the time the citizen has to start behind the curve in reaction to a threat.

Mindset plays a huge role in carry concealed and getting in and out of fights.

Combat shooting in the mil and carrying concealed training for the fight on the street are essentially two different things.

[Kevin B.]

Fairbairn -Sykes , Prewar China and British Commanders
Applegate , OSS WW2
Quick Kill , S.E. Asia
Byce , LEO

All proven in combat , not games , not clocks or cardboard targets.


Lots of difference being in military and a citizen carrying on the street.
Most of the time the citizen has to start behind the curve in reaction to a threat.

Just so I make sure I am following your logic...

Point-shooting in WWII and S.E. Asia (by intelligence and military personnel) makes it combat proven (and therefore presumably a system that has value to civilians), but the use of sights by military personnel is irrelevant because they are not civilians?

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/may/10/americans-kill-yemeni-attackers-after-shoot-out-in-barbers-shop

Care to guess which system they were trained to use to shoot their pistols?

[Kyle Reese]

" but then again, maybe guys like Larry Vickers (Delta Force), Frank Proctor (Army Special Forces), Kyle Lamb (Army Special Operations) have it all wrong. "
'
Lots of difference being in military and a citizen carrying on the street.
Most of the time the citizen has to start behind the curve in reaction to a threat.

Doesn't it stand to reason that if point-shooting was superior to sighted fire, SMU's would predicate their handgun doctrines around it?

[Maple Syrup Actual]

I wouldn't want to be a teacher of anyone of you folks .Look for the speck in your own eye before you cast stones!

I can't speak for anyone else of course, but I've become friends with several of my instructors. They couldn't have found the experience of teaching me that awful.

I mean maybe it's Stockholm Syndrome, but I don't think so.


OTOH I don't seek out instruction from people who sweep themselves with their fingers on their triggers. I feel like that ought to be a given?

[Lon]

Lots of difference being in military and a citizen carrying on the street.
Most of the time the citizen has to start behind the curve in reaction to a threat.

I agree there's a difference. Having said that, I still think what is being shown in those videos is at best, out of date training methodology. At worst, it's total marketing bullshit targeting the novice, impressionable, first time "student".

To find a realistic comparison, let's look at Tom Givens. His students (over 60) have been successful in EVERY gunfight they've been in when they actually had a gun with them. He has the research to back up his teaching methods. Non-military, CCW shootings to back up why he trains the way he does. And he doesn't teach anything like what's in those videos. For good reason - what he teaches works.

That's the problem I see with the videos. Reminds me of that C.A.R. crap from a few years back.

If this guy can show the same kind of real world stats for his students performance, I'll drink a big ole glass of STFU to go with the order of crow I'll eat.

[Tamara]

What an interesting thread.


Welcome to PF, Mr. Brown. :cool:


I wouldn't want to be a teacher of anyone of you folks .Look for the speck in your own eye before you cast stones!

Looks like the signal went up.

5023

[NETim]

Smith.
Ayoob.
Green.
Givens.
Vogel.
Vickers.

All told me to use the sights.

[JodyH]

Welcome to PF, Mr. Brown. :cool:
I was looking for just the right Beetlejuice meme... but you beat me to the call out.

[BehindBlueI's]

Fairbairn -Sykes , Prewar China and British Commanders
Applegate , OSS WW2
Quick Kill , S.E. Asia
Byce , LEO

All proven in combat , not games , not clocks or cardboard targets.


" but then again, maybe guys like Larry Vickers (Delta Force), Frank Proctor (Army Special Forces), Kyle Lamb (Army Special Operations) have it all wrong. "
'
Lots of difference being in military and a citizen carrying on the street.
Most of the time the citizen has to start behind the curve in reaction to a threat.

I've investigated hundreds and hundreds of robberies, people shot, people stabbed, etc. I've got a pretty good idea what random violent crime looks like. Help me understand where the citizen carrying on the street will run by two targets firing on them one handed as he rushes by. Help me understand where a citizen is going to shoot over their shoulder without taking the time to identify the threat. I'd also be interested in what your background is and how you've come to the conclusions you have regarding this topic.

[azqkr]

Welcome to PF, Mr. Brown. :cool:

Thank you, interesting thread.

[JodyH]

This thread should be nuked from orbit and the ashes tossed into a volcano, the nuke the damn volcano.
Twice.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0-JA1ffd5Ms

[RJ]

" but then again, maybe guys like Larry Vickers (Delta Force), Frank Proctor (Army Special Forces), Kyle Lamb (Army Special Operations) have it all wrong. "
'
Lots of difference being in military and a citizen carrying on the street.
Most of the time the citizen has to start behind the curve in reaction to a threat.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P5y6C-v5-j0

[JodyH]

Thank you, interesting thread.
I suggest you use this pic as your avatar, so it's easy to pick your nuggets of wisdom out of all the background noise.
5024

[Luke]

Looks like the signal went up.

5023



This made me laugh out loud!

[JodyH]

All we need now are some horse stance Israelis and it's a PAR-TAY.

[Kyle Reese]

All we need now are some horse stance Israelis and it's a PAR-TAY.

How about a dash of Condition 3 carry?

[HopetonBrown]

How about a dash of Condition 3 carry?

And a smidgen of CAR.

[Tamara]

How about a dash of Condition 3 carry?

Are you saying Fairbairn was wrong?

[FNFAN]

The really High Speed/ Low Drag folks use aimed fire.

http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b314/Detonics/HSLD_zpsqtacmqna.jpg

[John Hearne]

http://cdn.meme.am/instances/500x/55969779.jpg

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G900A using Tapatalk

[azqkr]

Word. I suppose the return fire off the steel simulates a real gunfight.

I found that idea quite funny, hadn't considered it. I'm not getting splatter, the plates are all designed to move lead down and away. But I've seen people take a lot of splatter off others plates and you're right, it's like return fire at times. :D

[LHS]

Jesus Christ...
5026

[45dotACP]

This thread is officially awesome...

[azqkr]

From one of two full time range officers training MT to over 1600 leo's yearly after visiting the skills.

Day 1:

Beautiful day in the desert, Brownie and I had the shooting area all to ourselves. I arrived with my Glock 17 in hand (no sights, I took them off prior to arrival, so I would not cheat) a couple of 30 rd mags, and 17 rounders. I was of course a little apprehensive about how I would fare with the QK technique. Brownie assured me I would do just fine, still being the type A+ Obsessive Compulsive Disorder personality, I was my own worst enemy. I would not settle for anything less than the utmost perfection.

Brownie explained the basic technique to me and I started shooting, remembering my handgun reference point in my peripheral vision, and concentrating on the target not the gun!

I had been a MT shooter all my life, my mind was my limiting factor. Brownie had set up the steel targets as the wind had kicked up. The paper targets were out of the question for now, this would unbeknownst to me be a problem psychologicaly for me on Day 2.

I shot from 3' back to 21' and was hitting the steel like clockwork, I was hitting like a machine, but my mind couldn't believe I was actually doing it.

Brownie had me go back to 35', then 45', and then 75'...I was actually hitting a steel target, slow fire cadence, bang..bang...bang...1.5 to 2 seconds between shots...with no sights....quite remarkable...but I was doing it....

All shots were in the A/B zone on an IPSC target, mostly A hits on the steel.

There would be a lot of high five's and laughs of unbelievability with Brownie..we had a real good time this day.

Brownie showed me techniques that doubled my speed from draw to shots on target with combat accuracy. He showed me techniques that I had never seen before which, in my humble opinion, were life saving combat techniques which should be taught to every responsible gun toting person on the planet.

I also learned rifle QK, which was quite impressive. Brownie had a special set-up waiting for me at his home. I actually hit quarters out of the air (Sorry, Steve, beat you by one shot, buddy)

Day2:

Well, paper target day! The night before, I was picking Brownie's brain, writing notes as to the physics and engineering behind QK...this would be problematic on day 2...and be to my detriment the first few hours of shooting.

I would have to free my mind, not think about the mechanics behind QK.

I was now seeing my hits on paper for the first time, and it screwed me up for awhile, I was trying for picture perfect small contained shots at rapid fire unsighted speeds, I kept trying to verify my sights...this was no good...I was visibly frustrated....

Brownie said, remember you are not target shooting, this is combat shooting, you are not going to have a small ragged hole...unbeknownst to me I later would have my QK shots in a small ragged hole, running flat-out on the move on two targets...at 15'....

Brownie settled me down, and we tried some drills to accomplish this...it worked. I was shooting a rock, 12" in diameter at 60yds....did I mention no sights!!! 90% hits...the shots that did not hit were real close, enough to make that rock jump if it had legs.

We practiced the drills from day1 again because I could not believe I could duplicate it...I was dead wrong. I just gained more confidence after Brownie got me on track.

Now the fun part, running flat-out while shooting. I know what your thinking, can't be done, rightt? W R O N G! If I can do it, you can do it. You must not think about what you are doing...just concentrate on the threat, and get your handgun reference point, your mind and body will do the rest.

I hit 100% A zone hits on a lateral run two handed, and 98% hits one handed at 15'.

I was very pleased and very tired after the second day. I had a lot of laughs and a very good time with Brownie.

I will say this. Brownie tried and tested various techniques which I had never seen before. These techniques work, and are repeatable. They work every time. I have added these drills into my personal bag of tricks, and will practice them weekly.They will be life savers in a gunfight...This is what it's all about, winning a gunfight and going home to my family, cause at the end of the day, that's what counts.

I win, badass loses...

Brownie, you are an honorable man, a gentlemen, and a great teacher.

Thank you for everything.
__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ ________________________________________

USArmy Pathfinder, retired, now embedded with a forward unit working for the company

After lurking about on this forum as well as others I made the decision to take Brownie's "Quick Kill/ Threat Focused Response" class this past weekend in Flagstaff. I've been shooting for over 25 years in both the military and the civillian world. I've been to a number of the high end shooting schools and am always striving to maintain and develop tactics and mindset.

Having said that, I can say this was this was the finest real world training I've had. Due to 4 no-shows our class was only 4 people. Excellent, more one on one training for me I thought. I won't get into all the skills and drills, you can read about them on the forum. When I get instruction I try to leave as much of my baggage behind and get into the student mode. I don't want to be coddled or pampered. Brownie has a no BS approach to training. I love that. It's when I learn and retain the most. I put 1300 rounds downrange in one day. I've never shot that much in any civillian school. I actually had to tape my fingers due to wear on my grip tape and trigger wear.If you're not bleeding, you're not training hard enough right? The instruction was intense, focused and fun. When I indicated I wanted to skip lunch and continue to shoot Brownie stayed on the line with me and helped fine tune my technique. Never saw that level of commitment in any school by the head Instructor!

The tactics and skills Brownie teachs and has developed are quite simply the fastest way to kill an opponent.That's the stuff I want. I was hitting targets out to 100 yards using no sights. On the second day my front sight boke off, no biggie, I wasn't using it and didn't need it anyway.

I was a confident shooter prior to taking this class but after completing it I feel as if the skills and tactics taught by Brownie will be the ones to save my life in the event of a real world gunfight. They are the ones I will spend my precious training time on. No more front sight trigger press for me.

From the head of the NM Insurance Fraud Bureau

I made arrangements for Robin to come to Santa Fe for a day to put on a class for the investigators in my agency - the New Mexico Insurance Fraud Bureau. The date set, June 2, arrived and due to a number of conflicts only our senior agent (and armorer) and myself were able to attend.

We met Robin in the parking lot of our office building and drove out to the SFPD range near the airport. The PD was kind enough to let us use their target stands and we had the place to ourselves.

Frank, our senior agent, was with the Santa Fe County Sheriff's Office for ten years before joining the Bureau. He is a Glock and S&W armorer and a state certified firearms instructor. I'm the Bureau's senior attorney and received my firearms training almost 30 years ago when I was a cop in California. Obviously, a lot has changed since then. My beloved Python has been replaced with a G33 and it took me over a year to get really comfortable with the semi-auto platform.

To get to the point, Frank and I were both amazed at what Robin had us doing in only 15 minutes. We were ignoring the sights and hitting what we aimed at - almost every time. Each exercise started with a clear explanation and demonstration and then we were coached through the exercise, firing numerous magazines, until we were proficient.

Almost 1,000 rounds each later, we were tired, sunburned and yet exhilarated by what we had learned and the abilities we developed. Robin has the rare ability to teach skills that will keep you alive in a real-life confrontation and at the same time make it FUN, FUN, FUN! I count this as one of the best experiences in a life that has been blessed with many great experiences and opportunities. We're looking forward to having Robin back next year when, hopefully, the rest of the crew can participate.

Thanks, Brownie!!!!
__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ __________

Students speak to the training.

[JodyH]

Here come the walls of text...

How about you post more videos, actions speak louder than words and a picture is worth a thousand words.

[BehindBlueI's]

So how do these students know
. teach skills that will keep you alive in a real-life confrontation

Can you explain to me the demonstration of running in front of targets and shooting them as you go by in terms of a real life confrontation? Where in real life was this used? How did you vet this as a valid tactic?

[azqkr]

Here come the walls of text...

How about you post more videos, actions speak louder than words and a picture is worth a thousand words.

They were posted as first hand accounts and rebuttals [ from other than myself ] to the idea that students who attend the course are simply novices that are awe struck easily.

[azqkr]

So how do these students know

Can you explain to me the demonstration of running in front of targets and shooting them as you go by in terms of a real life confrontation? Where in real life was this used? How did you vet this as a valid tactic?

The exercise is only used to demonstrate people CAN run and shoot effectively on threats one handed. That it's not necessary to move, stop and shoot, move stop and shoot as some suggest in order to make solid hits on threats. No more or less sir.

Obviously, the aar's are simply their opinion after having attended, based in part by their prior backgrounds/training and experience on the street.

[Chuck Haggard]

" but then again, maybe guys like Larry Vickers (Delta Force), Frank Proctor (Army Special Forces), Kyle Lamb (Army Special Operations) have it all wrong. "
'
Lots of difference being in military and a citizen carrying on the street.
Most of the time the citizen has to start behind the curve in reaction to a threat.

Your understanding of what happens "on the street" appears to be WAY off base.

[JodyH]

They were posted as first hand accounts and rebuttals [ from other than myself ] to the idea that students who attend the course are simply novices that are awe struck easily.
First hand accounts and rebuttals... posted anonymously, second hand by you.
Sounds legit.
:rolleyes:

[Chuck Haggard]

Fairbairn -Sykes , Prewar China and British Commanders
Applegate , OSS WW2
Quick Kill , S.E. Asia
Byce , LEO

All proven in combat , not games , not clocks or cardboard targets.

Actual hit rates, and success rates, in the gun fights in pre way China were actually pretty poor.

Taking a system a dude had to come up with, on the fly, to police a third world shithole with untrained troops with minimal to zero experience, many from a never even seen a gun before culture, on a low budget with limited ammo available, using guns that had sights that you could barely see at high noon while standing still, and thinking that is the answer in the year 2015, is beyond out of touch with reality.

The TTPs used by guys like this dude;
http://soldiersystems.net/2012/08/18/gunfighter-moment-mcnamara/

and this dude;
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s3nGbN7RxpI

and the unparalleled success of Tom Givens' students in real world "on the streets" defensive shootings;
http://americanhandgunner.com/when-citizens-fight-back/

backed up by my experience training people locally.....

all have one thing in common; training to use the sights, and then in real life using the sights, and it works, be that venue Mogadishu, Iraq, Afghanistan, Topeka, or Memphis.

[Chuck Haggard]

The exercise is only used to demonstrate people CAN run and shoot effectively on threats one handed. That it's not necessary to move, stop and shoot, move stop and shoot as some suggest in order to make solid hits on threats. No more or less sir.

Obviously, the aar's are simply their opinion after having attended, based in part by their prior backgrounds/training and experience on the street.

Paul Howe would disagree with that entire premise. My experience would mirror Paul's.

[ken grant]

Your understanding of what happens "on the street" appears to be WAY off base.


In what way?????

[BehindBlueI's]

The exercise is only used to demonstrate people CAN run and shoot effectively on threats one handed. That it's not necessary to move, stop and shoot, move stop and shoot as some suggest in order to make solid hits on threats. No more or less sir.

OK. And the shooting over the shoulder?

In general to what you decide to teach, I will repeat my questions: Where in real life was this used? How did you vet this as a valid tactic?

[azqkr]

First hand accounts and rebuttals... posted anonymously, second hand by you.
Sounds legit.
:rolleyes:

It would appear you're questioning my integrity, is that actually the inference you're making in your post?

[azqkr]

Paul Howe would disagree with that entire premise. My experience would mirror Paul's.

As would many others, yet the fact remains there are a boat load of people who believe the BS out there that you can't run and shoot accurately. None of which changes the fact it's demonstrated in real time for the naysayers out there that it's unreliable.

[azqkr]

OK. And the shooting over the shoulder?

In general to what you decide to teach, I will repeat my questions: Where in real life was this used? How did you vet this as a valid tactic?

FoF

[JodyH]

It would appear you're questioning my integrity, is that actually the inference you're making in your post?
Are you challenging me to a duel?

[Chuck Haggard]

In what way?????

Your flippant description about what you think happens on the streets vs military/police pistol deployment.

In real world CCW shootings the good guys often have a significant surprise and initiative advantage when they go for guns. That actually makes those types of pistol fights easier, not harder.

[azqkr]

Actual hit rates, and success rates, in the gun fights in pre way China were actually pretty poor.

Taking a system a dude had to come up with, on the fly, to police a third world shithole with untrained troops with minimal to zero experience, many from a never even seen a gun before culture, on a low budget with limited ammo available, using guns that had sights that you could barely see at high noon while standing still, and thinking that is the answer in the year 2015, is beyond out of touch with reality.

The TTPs used by guys like this dude;
http://soldiersystems.net/2012/08/18/gunfighter-moment-mcnamara/

and this dude;
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s3nGbN7RxpI

and the unparalleled success of Tom Givens' students in real world "on the streets" defensive shootings;
http://americanhandgunner.com/when-citizens-fight-back/

backed up by my experience training people locally.....

all have one thing in common; training to use the sights, and then in real life using the sights, and it works, be that venue Mogadishu, Iraq, Afghanistan, Topeka, or Memphis.

What many fail to realize is it's not an either or situation where use of sights is concerned, both have their place in the world of sd with a pistol based on time and distance

[Chuck Haggard]

As would many others, yet the fact remains there are a boat load of people who believe the BS out there that you can't run and shoot accurately. None of which changes the fact it's demonstrated in real time for the naysayers out there that it's unreliable.

Are you saying that your experience trumps that of Paul Howe?


I'll say it clearly; one can not run and shoot accurately. Period.

Your definition of accuracy appears to be a bit different than mine, or Paul's

[azqkr]

Are you challenging me to a duel?

Why don't you answer the question. Were you questioning my integrity?

[azqkr]

Are you saying that your experience trumps that of Paul Howe?


I'll say it clearly; one can not run and shoot accurately. Period.

Your definition of accuracy appears to be a bit different than mine, or Paul's

One can run and shoot accurately "enough" to make hits in the upper torso. All the while making themselves a harder target to acquire.

[Chuck Haggard]

What many fail to realize is it's not an either or situation where use of sights is concerned, both have their place in the world of sd with a pistol based on time and distance

Many point shooting advocates fail to grasp simple, repeatable, real world empirical evidence and default to "it's all good" commentary. Not all choices are equal, or valid.

Outside of contact/grapple distance shooting where one can physically index the bad guy, training to not use the sights has a shitty track record, while good guys who have been well trained to use the sights and shoot at eye level have a long history of success in the real world.

[BehindBlueI's]

FoF

That's an extremely simplistic answer to part of one of the questions, and doesn't add any understanding at all as to how you vetted this. Care to elaborate as to how this FoF was done, what real life situation it recreates, and how you've vetted it?

[JodyH]

Why don't you answer the question. Were you questioning my integrity?
How can I question it when I'm not even sure you have it?

[BehindBlueI's]

One can run and shoot accurately "enough" to make hits in the upper torso. All the while making themselves a harder target to acquire.


FoF

So in your FoF you were not completely chewed up by the second guy, if not the first? At a distance of, what, about 3 yards or so, you're running made you that difficult to acquire? And this was somehow superior to more accepted tactics?

https://media.licdn.com/mpr/mpr/p/5/005/090/163/24dc9ee.jpg

[GardoneVT]

Many point shooting advocates fail to grasp simple, repeatable, real world empirical evidence and default to "it's all good" commentary. Not all choices are equal, or valid.

Outside of contact/grapple distance shooting where one can physically index the bad guy, training to not use the sights has a shitty track record, while good guys who have been well trained to use the sights and shoot at eye level have a long history of success in the real world.

But...look at all those Advanced Certificate Rodgers School grads who point shooted their way to a 124!

/sarc.

[John Hearne]

FoF

So your methods were forged on the anvil of airsoft?

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G900A using Tapatalk

[JodyH]

Is it Festivus already?

[jetfire]

From one of two full time range officers training MT to over 1600 leo's yearly after visiting the skills.

Day 1:

Beautiful day in the desert, Brownie and I had the shooting area all to ourselves. I arrived with my Glock 17 in hand (no sights, I took them off prior to arrival, so I would not cheat) a couple of 30 rd mags, and 17 rounders. I was of course a little apprehensive about how I would fare with the QK technique. Brownie assured me I would do just fine, still being the type A+ Obsessive Compulsive Disorder personality, I was my own worst enemy. I would not settle for anything less than the utmost perfection.

Brownie explained the basic technique to me and I started shooting, remembering my handgun reference point in my peripheral vision, and concentrating on the target not the gun!

I had been a MT shooter all my life, my mind was my limiting factor. Brownie had set up the steel targets as the wind had kicked up. The paper targets were out of the question for now, this would unbeknownst to me be a problem psychologicaly for me on Day 2.

I shot from 3' back to 21' and was hitting the steel like clockwork, I was hitting like a machine, but my mind couldn't believe I was actually doing it.

Brownie had me go back to 35', then 45', and then 75'...I was actually hitting a steel target, slow fire cadence, bang..bang...bang...1.5 to 2 seconds between shots...with no sights....quite remarkable...but I was doing it....

All shots were in the A/B zone on an IPSC target, mostly A hits on the steel.

There would be a lot of high five's and laughs of unbelievability with Brownie..we had a real good time this day.

Brownie showed me techniques that doubled my speed from draw to shots on target with combat accuracy. He showed me techniques that I had never seen before which, in my humble opinion, were life saving combat techniques which should be taught to every responsible gun toting person on the planet.

I also learned rifle QK, which was quite impressive. Brownie had a special set-up waiting for me at his home. I actually hit quarters out of the air (Sorry, Steve, beat you by one shot, buddy)

Day2:

Well, paper target day! The night before, I was picking Brownie's brain, writing notes as to the physics and engineering behind QK...this would be problematic on day 2...and be to my detriment the first few hours of shooting.

I would have to free my mind, not think about the mechanics behind QK.

I was now seeing my hits on paper for the first time, and it screwed me up for awhile, I was trying for picture perfect small contained shots at rapid fire unsighted speeds, I kept trying to verify my sights...this was no good...I was visibly frustrated....

Brownie said, remember you are not target shooting, this is combat shooting, you are not going to have a small ragged hole...unbeknownst to me I later would have my QK shots in a small ragged hole, running flat-out on the move on two targets...at 15'....

Brownie settled me down, and we tried some drills to accomplish this...it worked. I was shooting a rock, 12" in diameter at 60yds....did I mention no sights!!! 90% hits...the shots that did not hit were real close, enough to make that rock jump if it had legs.

We practiced the drills from day1 again because I could not believe I could duplicate it...I was dead wrong. I just gained more confidence after Brownie got me on track.

Now the fun part, running flat-out while shooting. I know what your thinking, can't be done, rightt? W R O N G! If I can do it, you can do it. You must not think about what you are doing...just concentrate on the threat, and get your handgun reference point, your mind and body will do the rest.

I hit 100% A zone hits on a lateral run two handed, and 98% hits one handed at 15'.

I was very pleased and very tired after the second day. I had a lot of laughs and a very good time with Brownie.

I will say this. Brownie tried and tested various techniques which I had never seen before. These techniques work, and are repeatable. They work every time. I have added these drills into my personal bag of tricks, and will practice them weekly.They will be life savers in a gunfight...This is what it's all about, winning a gunfight and going home to my family, cause at the end of the day, that's what counts.

I win, badass loses...

Brownie, you are an honorable man, a gentlemen, and a great teacher.

Thank you for everything.
__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ ________________________________________

USArmy Pathfinder, retired, now embedded with a forward unit working for the company

After lurking about on this forum as well as others I made the decision to take Brownie's "Quick Kill/ Threat Focused Response" class this past weekend in Flagstaff. I've been shooting for over 25 years in both the military and the civillian world. I've been to a number of the high end shooting schools and am always striving to maintain and develop tactics and mindset.

Having said that, I can say this was this was the finest real world training I've had. Due to 4 no-shows our class was only 4 people. Excellent, more one on one training for me I thought. I won't get into all the skills and drills, you can read about them on the forum. When I get instruction I try to leave as much of my baggage behind and get into the student mode. I don't want to be coddled or pampered. Brownie has a no BS approach to training. I love that. It's when I learn and retain the most. I put 1300 rounds downrange in one day. I've never shot that much in any civillian school. I actually had to tape my fingers due to wear on my grip tape and trigger wear.If you're not bleeding, you're not training hard enough right? The instruction was intense, focused and fun. When I indicated I wanted to skip lunch and continue to shoot Brownie stayed on the line with me and helped fine tune my technique. Never saw that level of commitment in any school by the head Instructor!

The tactics and skills Brownie teachs and has developed are quite simply the fastest way to kill an opponent.That's the stuff I want. I was hitting targets out to 100 yards using no sights. On the second day my front sight boke off, no biggie, I wasn't using it and didn't need it anyway.

I was a confident shooter prior to taking this class but after completing it I feel as if the skills and tactics taught by Brownie will be the ones to save my life in the event of a real world gunfight. They are the ones I will spend my precious training time on. No more front sight trigger press for me.

From the head of the NM Insurance Fraud Bureau

I made arrangements for Robin to come to Santa Fe for a day to put on a class for the investigators in my agency - the New Mexico Insurance Fraud Bureau. The date set, June 2, arrived and due to a number of conflicts only our senior agent (and armorer) and myself were able to attend.

We met Robin in the parking lot of our office building and drove out to the SFPD range near the airport. The PD was kind enough to let us use their target stands and we had the place to ourselves.

Frank, our senior agent, was with the Santa Fe County Sheriff's Office for ten years before joining the Bureau. He is a Glock and S&W armorer and a state certified firearms instructor. I'm the Bureau's senior attorney and received my firearms training almost 30 years ago when I was a cop in California. Obviously, a lot has changed since then. My beloved Python has been replaced with a G33 and it took me over a year to get really comfortable with the semi-auto platform.

To get to the point, Frank and I were both amazed at what Robin had us doing in only 15 minutes. We were ignoring the sights and hitting what we aimed at - almost every time. Each exercise started with a clear explanation and demonstration and then we were coached through the exercise, firing numerous magazines, until we were proficient.

Almost 1,000 rounds each later, we were tired, sunburned and yet exhilarated by what we had learned and the abilities we developed. Robin has the rare ability to teach skills that will keep you alive in a real-life confrontation and at the same time make it FUN, FUN, FUN! I count this as one of the best experiences in a life that has been blessed with many great experiences and opportunities. We're looking forward to having Robin back next year when, hopefully, the rest of the crew can participate.

Thanks, Brownie!!!!
__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ __________

Students speak to the training.

Anyone can get rave reviews when you write them yourself.

[45dotACP]

But...look at all those Advanced Certificate Rodgers School grads who point shooted their way to a 124!

/sarc.
#notimersinthestreets

Sent from my VS876 using Tapatalk

[RJ]

Anyone can get rave reviews when you write them yourself.

Indeed.

http://www.floridaconcealedcarry.com/Forum/showthread.php?47262-Zen-And-the-Art-of-Quick-Kill-Maintenance

[voodoo_man]

#notimersinthestreets

Sent from my VS876 using Tapatalk

...there arent...

Lets focus more on the obvious issues rather making this a gamer vs...whatever it is that its vs.

[LSP972]

Holy cow. So THAT is Brownie.

I too remember him from GlockTalk. And then he discovered our local board here (not PF) and began spouting his point-shooting bullshit.

I and another founding member, knowing him well from GT, challenged him to come to Louisiana and SHOW us how superior his "system" was.

Funny thing, we never heard from him again.

.

[GardoneVT]

I motion for threadlock. The salient points have already been made, and no ones mind is in danger of being changed .

[LSP972]

Great. All that therapy undone in a sentence. :/

No kidding. I'll be having nightmares about Tex Grebner and tactical wheelbarrows tonight...:p

.

[voodoo_man]

I motion for threadlock. The salient points have already been made, and no ones mind is in danger of being changed .

Speak for yourself, im trying to find the right hammer to break the sights off my duty gun.

[JAD]

I think we should at least keep the thread open until we have video of the duel posted.

[GardoneVT]

Grinch.

I work in banking.
"Scrooge" is the proper label. ;)

The Grinch is an unemployed communist.

[JodyH]

Anyone can get rave reviews when you write them yourself.
Are you questioning his integrity?

[LSP972]

... im trying to find the right hammer to break the sights off my duty gun.

Left-handed metric ball peen, for the win.

.

[45dotACP]

Speak for yourself, im trying to find the right hammer to break the sights off my duty gun.
Well I'd use the handle of a Fairbairn/Sikes OSS dagger...

Proven in combat in pre-war China and WW2.

Sent from my VS876 using Tapatalk

[voodoo_man]

Well I'd use the handle of a Fairbairn/Sikes OSS dagger...

Proven in combat in pre-war China and WW2.

Sent from my VS876 using Tapatalk

Nah bro, thats like futuristic tech, im gana go with using the butt of an 1853 enfield, proven since the civil war.

[azqkr]

Many point shooting advocates fail to grasp simple, repeatable, real world empirical evidence and default to "it's all good" commentary. Not all choices are equal, or valid.

Outside of contact/grapple distance shooting where one can physically index the bad guy, training to not use the sights has a shitty track record, while good guys who have been well trained to use the sights and shoot at eye level have a long history of success in the real world.

Yes, just look at the leo's track record using front sight press. Their hit ratio has hovered between 19-24% on the streets. Hmm,

[azqkr]

How can I question it when I'm not even sure you have it?

Interesting reply, it only required a simple yes or no. Was it that the question was just too simple for you?

[Malamute]

Yes, just look at the leo's track record using front sight press. Their hit ratio has hovered between 19-24% on the streets. Hmm,

I don't think Chuck Haggard is the right person to try that comment on.


Probably aren't very many here to try it on actually.

[azqkr]

What's your documented hit ratio on the streets?

More than leo's [ on their national average ] using their sights. :cool:

What's yours?

[azqkr]

I don't think Chuck Haggard is the right person to try that comment on.


Probably aren't very many here to try it on actually.

It should have gone without mention that there are exceptions to the rule. And averages means some hit percentages are above and below the mean average. I'm not surprised in the least there are better and worse shooters than a mean average.

[SLG]

Oh no, not Brownie...



I can't read all the comments in this thread, so I apologize if someone already beat me to the punch.

You NEED to go get some real knife fighter training from that dude. I'm astounded that he didn't filet himself (of course, since there was no OBVIOUS power to any of it...) so he must be using the force or something else way beyond your cool acronym'd classes. You're a smart guy, so in a few years, you should have mastered what he has to offer. Then you can come back here and teach us lesser mortals the one true way of bowie abuse.

Jim Bowie must be spinning in his grave.

[Malamute]

It should have gone without mention that there are exceptions to the rule. And averages means some hit percentages are above and below the mean average. I'm not surprised in the least there are better and worse shooters than a mean average.

The focus of my comment would be agencies, not individuals.

[azqkr]

So your methods were forged on the anvil of airsoft?

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G900A using Tapatalk

Many were and continue to be tested in fof, that only makes sense. Most were forged in battle with the oss and a few ranger battalions, and earlier in Shanghai in the 30's.

[jetfire]

Indeed.

http://www.floridaconcealedcarry.com/Forum/showthread.php?47262-Zen-And-the-Art-of-Quick-Kill-Maintenance

Oh man, that's fantastic. This is exactly the kind of nonsense that drives me nuts; because there's no way whatsoever to verify the veracity of AARs like this. So I just assume they're fabricated from whole cloth, based on the author's vivid fantasy life.

[azqkr]

The focus of my comment would be agencies, not individuals.

And again, certain agencies will have an above and below mean averages.

[GardoneVT]

What's your documented hit ratio on the streets?

Don't make him divide by zero.

[jetfire]

Are you questioning his integrity?

Uh, allow me to be clear. I think he's lying, and that his entire background is fabricated from whole cloth. I think he finds uncritical nuthuggers and tells these tales of incredible badassery that they go around repeating because said nuthuggers are also useless failures so they get to feel cool by being associated with someone who can weave an incredible tale.

[45dotACP]

All joking aside...I think a refined index is nice to have for shooting quickly at close range. I mean, at 3-5 yards on an IPSC target, a refined sight picture isn't necessary. You could probably get a decent hit fairly quick by just seeing your gun in your peripheral vision and seeing the target.

Of course, assuming a life or death encounter will look like that is naive. Then again, looking at Brownies vids, the time it takes to draw and shoot "without turning" seems pretty naive too, because at that range, a guy who failed to make the JV wrestling team could close the distance, disrupt the already questionable balance of that stance and force feed him that sightless Glock...

As far as shooting on a run, I've seen Gabe White do some interesting videos on that, getting hits in a bowling pin while running, using his sights.

Sent from my VS876 using Tapatalk

[GJM]

19 pages so far -- can someone provide the cliff notes version of what is going on here?

[Drang]

19 pages so far -- can someone provide the cliff notes version of what is going on here?

Video of dubious techniques gets posted.
Commentary/critique/mockery ensue.
Person who made video appears.
P-F.com starts to read like BARFCOM.

[45dotACP]

19 pages so far -- can someone provide the cliff notes version of what is going on here?
Brownie is on PF defending the ironically named "Quick Kill" shooting technique he teaches.

Arguments, trollin plus various and sundry hilarity ensues...

[rjohnson4405]

19 pages so far -- can someone provide the cliff notes version of what is going on here?

Brownie - an old GlockTalk god has found us commenting on his videos where he demonstrates (unsafely) shooting behind himself at targets without looking at the sites while citing Fairbain/Sykes techniques as still relevant and what should be trained for serious use.

The rest of PF trolling him. Except Chuck who is actually trying to have a rational discussion with an irrational person.

[GJM]

Brownie is on PF defending the ironically named "Quick Kill" shooting technique he teaches.

Arguments, trollin plus various and sundry hilarity ensues...

"Quick Kill," is that an IDPA technique?

[Robinson]

The Grinch is an unemployed communist.

Perhaps, but Whoville had it coming.

[45dotACP]

http://www.reactionface.info/sites/default/files/images/1287666826226.png

"Quick Kill," is that an IDPA technique?

[azqkr]

Video of dubious techniques gets posted.
Commentary/critique/mockery ensue.
Person who made video appears.
P-F.com starts to read like BARFCOM.

Add GT to that mix.

[azqkr]

Uh, allow me to be clear. I think he's lying, and that his entire background is fabricated from whole cloth. I think he finds uncritical nuthuggers and tells these tales of incredible badassery that they go around repeating because said nuthuggers are also useless failures so they get to feel cool by being associated with someone who can weave an incredible tale.

Isn't that sweet. You're free to think whatever you like. You certainly don't expect me to send you all the documentation that proves you're supposition incorrect right? :p

[azqkr]

"Quick Kill," is that an IDPA technique?

It would be if one were using that skill in an idpa match I suppose. :rolleyes:

[Drang]

I think our members have been fairly well behaved. However, I don't read ar15.com so perhaps your statement is accurate. :)
It is possible that I was being a bit hyperbolic...

"Quick Kill," is that an IDPA technique?
*Puts on Captain Pedantic Hat*
It was a technique (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Point_shooting#Rifle_Quick_Kill) the Army was teaching to some in the 60s and 70s. It was obviously highly effective, since I never once heard mention of it after I enlisted.
*Takes off Captain Pedantic Hat*

[azqkr]

Brownie - an old GlockTalk god has found us commenting on his videos where he demonstrates (unsafely) shooting behind himself at targets without looking at the sites while citing Fairbain/Sykes techniques as still relevant and what should be trained for serious use.

The rest of PF trolling him. Except Chuck who is actually trying to have a rational discussion with an irrational person.

Second time someone mentioned being some high power at GT. I never considered myself anything but another poster with some formally trained non mainstream skills that are well documented as viable on the streets. Skills that worked then are no less effective today, as much as some would suggest.

[azqkr]

It is possible that I was being a bit hyperbolic...

*Puts on Captain Pedantic Hat*
It was a technique (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Point_shooting#Rifle_Quick_Kill) the Army was teaching to some in the 60s and 70s. It was obviously highly effective, since I never once heard mention of it after I enlisted.
*Takes off Captain Pedantic Hat*

You've mistaken QK rifle with Quick Kill pistol where the army is concerned. Two different skills with different tools. The army adopted McDaniel's instinctive rifle skill, not the pistol skill.

[45dotACP]

It would be if one were using that skill in an idpa match I suppose. :rolleyes:
Sadly, rolling up to a match with point shooting guarantees one a fairly mediocre performance.

I know, I know...."Da streetz" and all. But have you tried steel matches? The shots aren't altogether different than the ones in your point shooting vids...just uh...tougher. Still, you'd probably enjoy them! Cleaning a plate rack or texas star fast is one of life's great joys. Right up there with a hot cup of coffee and the kindle version of "Kill or Get Killed"

😄

[voodoo_man]

...why not have a GTG at a neutral range and run a bunch of drills....for time...of varying difficulty....run by a neutral party?

Any takers?

[jetfire]

Isn't that sweet. You're free to think whatever you like. You certainly don't expect me to send you all the documentation that proves you're supposition incorrect right? :p

I imagine that it would be like your forum post AAR's from students: entirely fabricated. Also, you should have used "your" instead of that second "you're" in the reply. To demonstrate proper usage of your/you're: "Your background is entirely fabricated and you're a liar."

See how that works?

[azqkr]

Interesting reply, it only required a simple numerical response. Was it that the question was just too simple?



I've not fired any rounds on the streets, documented or otherwise.

While you're (not) answering questions, can you respond to these:

No, it wasn't too simple, but I'm not in the habit of answering specifics about DGU's.

[Drang]

Right up there with a hot cup of coffee and the kindle version of "Kill or Get Killed"��
Kindle, .pdf, etc: FMFRP 12-80 Kill or Get Killed (https://archive.org/details/milmanual-fmfrp-12-80-kill-or-get-killed)

[jetfire]

No, it wasn't too simple, but I'm not in the habit of answering specifics about DGU's.

It's a lot easier to keep your lies from getting tangled when you don't give people details.

[azqkr]

I imagine that it would be like your forum post AAR's from students: entirely fabricated. Also, you should have used "your" instead of that second "you're" in the reply. To demonstrate proper usage of your/you're: "Your background is entirely fabricated and you're a liar."

See how that works?

So, we've established you're the grammar police here then? :rolleyes:

[azqkr]

Or anything of substance it would seem.

That's certainly a matter of opinion, everyone's got one

[azqkr]

It's a lot easier to keep your lies from getting tangled when you don't give people details.

Have you read the forum rules lately? Perhaps you should revisit them

[Chuck Whitlock]

Can someone get Byron to dissect azqkr/Brownie?

[Mr_White]

https://farm1.staticflickr.com/774/23265158224_a24e913a3e_z.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/BrS1ZE)w4s6u (https://flic.kr/p/BrS1ZE) by OrigamiAK (https://www.flickr.com/photos/52790396@N08/), on Flickr

[BehindBlueI's]

Yes, just look at the leo's track record using front sight press. Their hit ratio has hovered between 19-24% on the streets. Hmm,

Our hit ratios are pretty damned good, and we teach front sight. If you want to have an honest conversation though, LE is often confronted with harder targets or reacting to ambush. How well do you suppose your hit rate would be when someone is firing at you while laying behind a car and shooting over a parking hump at 18 yards? Not something CCW Joe usually has to worry about. Barricaded suspects, etc. I'd be fascinated to see how your students do in similar situations.


Many were and continue to be tested in fof, that only makes sense. Most were forged in battle with the oss and a few ranger battalions, and earlier in Shanghai in the 30's.

Do you suppose there has been any improvement in technique since? I'll ask again since you continue to ignore it, how do you vet that any of these tactics are applicable to your students, who I assume are not Rangers or hopping in time machines to the 1930s. Does it have any correlation to the types of violent encounters they are most likely to face, robberies, sex crimes, etc? Where do you get your data, how do you apply it, and how do you vet it?


That's certainly a matter of opinion, everyone's got one

The refuge of those with no facts. Imply that everyone's opinion is equal, avoid supporting your own.

[GardoneVT]

That's certainly a matter of opinion, everyone's got one

Including the Flat Earth Society. As it so happens NASAs opinion is much more accurate then theirs.

[jetfire]

Have you read the forum rules lately? Perhaps you should revisit them

You are perhaps referring to the rule on remaining professional in conversation. I have at no point departed from the realm of strict professionalism in my conversation with you. It is my opinion, based on considerable experience, that you likely have fabricated your resume and your AARs. That's not an insult or a personal attack, it's a statement of opinion. Believe me, if I wanted to launch personal attacks, I would.

I'm the Michael Jordan of making people feel bad.

[John Hearne]

Our hit ratios are pretty damned good, and we teach front sight.

Once, I was talking with the head of the Firearms Training Unit of a sizeable metro police department and I asked him about his hit ratio. He rolled his eyes and basically said that averages really don't tell the real story. His experience was that out of five shootings he'd have four where the officers would fire 2-3 rounds and hit dude well. Then, the fifth person would dump a magazine or two, not hit anything and completely screw up the average.

A much better metric would be the median hit rate of each individual incident instead of adding up every bullet fired and every bullet that hit.

[45dotACP]

...why not have a GTG at a neutral range and run a bunch of drills....for time...of varying difficulty....run by a neutral party?

Any takers?
Hell I'd pitch in like an easy 50 bucks (possibly more) to help with the cost of that. A P-F Karma event! We are, after all, students of the shooting world. We could try recruiting some trainers who put on FOF, put together some timed drills on steel and paper at various ranges and compare and contrast the relative merits and drawbacks of various techniques and put it in YouTube.

[Chuck Haggard]

Yes, just look at the leo's track record using front sight press. Their hit ratio has hovered between 19-24% on the streets. Hmm,

There is no national data base of police gunfights, or hits rates, and to represent otherwise with sweeping generalizations is either incredibly ignorant or outright lying.

At my job we kept typically things in the 70% range, during one bad 18 month period we had nine shootings with 100% hits. In the past when I kept track of such things in detail I noted that LAPD had a street hit rate in the area of 60-75%, with units such as SWAT and SIS being far higher, and often in the 100% range. Tom Givens' students have also kept a near 100% hit rate going.

All of these groups have in common training in sighted fire, and no training for point shooting.


Looking at raw LE hit rates on the street also displays ignorance in the dynamics of why LE shooting incidents are often very, very different that typical CCW shootings. Many LEOs start their gunfight behind the power curve due to being shot. Being shot may have a negative effect on one's shooting.

[GJM]

Once, I was talking with the head of the Firearms Training Unit of a sizeable metro police department and I asked him about his hit ratio. He rolled his eyes and basically said that averages really don't tell the real story. His experience was that out of five shootings he'd have four where the officers would fire 2-3 rounds and hit dude well. Then, the fifth person would dump a magazine or two, not hit anything and completely screw up the average.

A much better metric would be the median hit rate of each individual incident instead of adding up every bullet fired and every bullet that hit.

Do you mean median or mode?

[BehindBlueI's]

Once, I was talking with the head of the Firearms Training Unit of a sizeable metro police department and I asked him about his hit ratio. He rolled his eyes and basically said that averages really don't tell the real story. His experience was that out of five shootings he'd have four where the officers would fire 2-3 rounds and hit dude well. Then, the fifth person would dump a magazine or two, not hit anything and completely screw up the average.

A much better metric would be the median hit rate of each individual incident instead of adding up every bullet fired and every bullet that hit.

That's doubtlessly true, and I certainly didn't mean to imply otherwise. There are situations, running gun battles in a wooded area with two bank robbers for example, where total rounds fired is MUCH higher than normal and that can skew results. It's been to long since I took statistics to recall the correct terms for things, but that's why instead of average rounds fired my stats are X number of incidents 1 round fired, Y had 2 rounds fired, Z had 3 rounds fired, etc. I personally think that gives a better overall view.

[Lon]

A civilian shooting method called "Quick Kill"?

5031

That will look good in court.

"So, Mr. Fairbarn, have you had any firearms training?"

"Why yes I have, I am a graduate of and specialize in the Quick Kill method of shooting."

(Goes downhill from there.....)

[jh9]

Do you mean median or mode?

http://www.purplemath.com/modules/meanmode.htm

Mean = average.

Median = the one in the middle.

Mode = the most common one.

Undergrad Probability and Statistics was a long time ago. I had to look them up.

But I agree with Hearne. The mean and median +/- 1 SD, 2SD, 3SD is kind of standard when it comes to basic stats.

edit: I just re-read your post and I'm guessing you already knew that. Anyway, I'm leaving it for anybody that didn't since I took the time to look it up. :p

[Drang]

Kindle, .pdf, etc: FMFRP 12-80 Kill or Get Killed (https://archive.org/details/milmanual-fmfrp-12-80-kill-or-get-killed)

Also,
Shooting To Live With the One Hand Gun - William Fairbairn (https://archive.org/details/ShootingToLiveWilliamFairbairn)
The Fairbairn Manual Of Knife Fighting : William Fairbairn : Free Download & Streaming : Internet Archive (https://archive.org/details/TheFairbairnManualOfKnifeFighting)

[Mr_White]

I remember the story at Rogers being that plenty of pointshooting advocates have done their thing there but basically crash and burn beyond about seven yards. That sound right, GJM?

I heard that sights work ok there though.

[Mr_White]

https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5624/23810865881_2fe4f55d66.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/Ch5USn)w4sjo (https://flic.kr/p/Ch5USn) by OrigamiAK (https://www.flickr.com/photos/52790396@N08/), on Flickr

[Glenn E. Meyer]

Stat - oh NO! Anyway - the use of the standard deviation depends on distributional shape. I doubt these numbers are anything like normal or symmetrical. Thus, I think the median like John said and an actual picture of the distribution (or something like a box plot) would be a good idea. That way you could see outliers.

I might predict you get lots of two and threes and then a spike in the high end. Just conjecture. However, it reminded me of the last match. There was a target that was held up by a small steel on one leg. The target was behind a barrel. Hitting the steel would simulate the knee and the target tumbled down to be shot. So most folks (mode) hit in one in a squad of 8 or so. A couple of folks took two shots. One guy ran through an entire Glock mag (shift your point of aim - duh). That would distort an average and make a standard deviation suspect.

[Trooper224]

USArmy Pathfinder, retired, now embedded with a forward unit working for the company

You know, I initially thought you were a pathetic and incompetent snake oil salesman. Then you start using words like "embedded", "unit", "company" and my mangina got wet. Throw in "downrange" and "operator" and you'll likely witness a cyber-orgasm. You can film it with your go-pro if that's your thing.

[SLG]

Serious question (I didn't know we were in a disagreement when I posted my flippant remark earlier). What is a DGU? I've seen more than a few quick kills, sometimes with handheld weapons, often with, shall we say, bigger stuff, but I am unfamiliar with the acronym DGU. I'm sure I'll feel stupid once I see it.

On another, more flippant note, why all this focus on unsafe, unrealistic firearms handling when there is a whole video of unsafe, unrealistic knife handling going on as well?

[TR675]

Defensive gun use.

Eta Tom beat me to it.

[John Hearne]

Do you mean median or mode?

Realistically, all of those numbers would mean something. I made a faux data set of 10 shootings reflecting the trend my friend described. This is what I came up with:

http://i1202.photobucket.com/albums/bb374/ajp3jeh/Gun%20Stuff/Shooting%20Metrics_zpsls57fmg8.jpg (http://s1202.photobucket.com/user/ajp3jeh/media/Gun%20Stuff/Shooting%20Metrics_zpsls57fmg8.jpg.html)

So yeah, I like a median based on a per event hit rate. I'm sure that changing the data set would change which metric would most reflect reality.

[jh9]

Stat - oh NO! Anyway - the use of the standard deviation depends on distributional shape. I doubt these numbers are anything like normal or symmetrical. Thus, I think the median like John said and an actual picture of the distribution (or something like a box plot) would be a good idea. That way you could see outliers.

Instructions unclear. Assumed Normal Distribution, calculated mean/variance/sd and submitted report as-is.

Why yes I have worked in academia. Why do you ask? :p

[Glenn E. Meyer]

There's a move away from the mean and standard deviation reports to more graphical depictions of data. Null Hypothesis testing using standard stats is on the way out. Glad I don't have to teach that anymore.

With such small samples and weird distributional shapes - I don't think the average is enough. It's like the guys who think that because the average gun fight takes two shots, then all gun fights are two shots and only nuts carry an extra mag. Haha.

I regret others had to work in academia! On the other hand, some guy said to me - How can you work with all those liberals?

Answer - I got the summer off. Haha!

[SLG]

DGU is sheepdog for defensive gun use.

Thank you! I guess I need to go to operator lingo school some more.

So...no fans of the bowie here?

[BehindBlueI's]

Thank you! I guess I need to go to operator lingo school some more.

So...no fans of the bowie here?

I'm still pretty sure operators are nice ladies who connect your telephone calls for you. I also figured DGU was a camo pattern of some type. The curve has well outpaced me from the days of "soldiers" and "shooting people".

[Cecil Burch]

So...no fans of the bowie here?


I am still trying to get my breath back after watching that pathetic piece of crap video of his
"knife work".

Anyone who films something that atrocious, watches themselves in it, and then still voluntarily posts it publicly all the while thinking it is even vaguely good is so clinically delusional that no amount of intellectual debate will save them.

Complete and utter garbage.

[Glenn E. Meyer]

DGU is used in the academic gun literature - as in discussing Kleck's work. So it isn't just bearded operators. Although, Kleck sports a good beard. Criminologists like the term.

[Mr_White]

You just Quick Killed™ my joke. :(

You mean he shot it with a bb gun?

[SLG]

I am still trying to get my breath back after watching that pathetic piece of crap video of his
"knife work".



It was pretty exciting, wasn't it.:-)

[LockedBreech]

Well, at least your rhetorical and pistol skills are congruent.

http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/12/21/1b57fefb1c83fead8cb678b32c19ae5f.jpg

Ho baby, call the ambulance!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Hambo]

There's layers of retardation most people don't even know about.

[jh9]

There's a move away from the mean and standard deviation reports to more graphical depictions of data. Null Hypothesis testing using standard stats is on the way out. Glad I don't have to teach that anymore.

With such small samples and weird distributional shapes - I don't think the average is enough. It's like the guys who think that because the average gun fight takes two shots, then all gun fights are two shots and only nuts carry an extra mag. Haha.

I regret others had to work in academia! On the other hand, some guy said to me - How can you work with all those liberals?

Answer - I got the summer off. Haha!

Agree that better viz is much more useful than "we assume X distribution and here's the mean/1-3rd sd" boilerplate. Hope to see more of it.

And having worked in a research only (no classes) department, summer just means I could park closer to the building. Bloody faculty. ;)

[azqkr]

Well, since you're not answering my questions (that I've posted more than once) about the stills taken from your video, and given your statement above, I can only conclude that the video is documentation of a DGU and that you were pointing your gun at yourself in an attempt to prevent you from doing something stupid and posting it on the internet.

You can't win 'em all. Better luck next time.

That's your only conclusion?

How about the fact I have no inclination nor see any need to defend myself to people who don't know me and question my integrity?

[JodyH]

That's your only conclusion?

How about the fact I have no inclination nor see any need to defend myself to people who don't know me and question my integrity?
Yet here you are...

[Luke]

Why did he not register as brownie? All the other forums isn't he brownie?

[45dotACP]

It was pretty exciting, wasn't it.:-)
"Technique was unclear: Sliced off my dick"

[azqkr]

There is no national data base of police gunfights, or hits rates, and to represent otherwise with sweeping generalizations is either incredibly ignorant or outright lying.

At my job we kept typically things in the 70% range, during one bad 18 month period we had nine shootings with 100% hits. In the past when I kept track of such things in detail I noted that LAPD had a street hit rate in the area of 60-75%, with units such as SWAT and SIS being far higher, and often in the 100% range. Tom Givens' students have also kept a near 100% hit rate going.

All of these groups have in common training in sighted fire, and no training for point shooting.


Looking at raw LE hit rates on the street also displays ignorance in the dynamics of why LE shooting incidents are often very, very different that typical CCW shootings. Many LEOs start their gunfight behind the power curve due to being shot. Being shot may have a negative effect on one's shooting.

https://www.policeone.com/officer-shootings/articles/117909-Study-reveals-important-truths-hidden-in-the-details-of-officer-involved-shootings/

For example, it has long been believed that officers overall have a dismal 15-25 percent hit probability in street encounters, suggesting truly poor performance under the stress of a real shooting situation. Actually, this figure, while essentially true in the aggregate, is markedly skewed by certain shooting variables, Aveni found.

http://www.theppsc.org/Staff_Views/Aveni/OIS.pdf

NYCPD average mean from 1990-2000 was 15%. [ page 4 ]

http://nation.time.com/2013/09/16/ready-fire-aim-the-science-behind-police-shooting-bystanders/

According to a 2008 RAND Corporation study evaluating the New York Police Department’s firearm training, between 1998 and 2006, the average hit rate during gunfights was just 18 percent. When suspects did not return fire, police officers hit their targets 30 percent of the time.

[azqkr]

Why did he not register as brownie? All the other forums isn't he brownie?

That user name isn't always available. More often than not it's been brownie0486 or the you tube channel azqkr

[azqkr]

As Jody said, and yet here you are with a freshly registered PF account. I think you need to loosen the strap on your helmet.

I was invited to the party. This is a party right? :rolleyes:

[voodoo_man]

Not really sure why LE shooting statistics even matter here as the numbers referenced are that of officers in uniform in the course of their duties. Don't really see how, even remotely, that is applicable to CCW citizens.

[azqkr]

Yet here you are...

Yup, invited to the party as it were.

[Totem Polar]

Looks like the signal went up.

5023
LoL!
I can't believe I waded in to catch up on this thread after a day's absence. As is often the case, Tam damn near made it worth the effort!

Fast times at P-F high; this is one for the books. :D

[azqkr]

Not really sure why LE shooting statistics even matter here as the numbers referenced are that of officers in uniform in the course of their duties. Don't really see how, even remotely, that is applicable to CCW citizens.

Using front sight press or modern technique defensively under stress with a pistol is no different for an officer than the ccw'er.

[GardoneVT]

Yup, invited to the party as it were.

Why are you here?

This place is for Teachers and Students of the Pistol. You're neither far as I can tell.

[BehindBlueI's]

Using front sight press or modern technique defensively under stress with a pistol is no different for an officer than the ccw'er.

You seem to be ignoring a lot of questions and a lot of information already presented. There are significant differences in the situations that random crime victims find themselves in vs LEO.

Would you care to address any of the multiple questions addressed to you concerning how you validate your techniques, if you teach getting on the trigger early and sweeping your body or only demonstrate it, etc? I can tell you I've seen more than zero folks shoot themselves in the leg getting on the trigger early under stress.

[BehindBlueI's]

More recently he's been using azqkr.

Ha! I just realized that's supposed to be "ass kicker". You kids and your texting lingo these days...

[45dotACP]

He won't and he can't.

If anyone, including Mr. Brown, has anything to add, you best be quick. This thread will be closed soon.
Ah, too bad. Well this has been truly some of most fun I've had on the internet in a while. Brownie, I don't expect you'll last long here, but thanks for the lolz! Stay safe out there!

[Wondering Beard]

I'm trying really hard to convince myself that Nyeti (after all he hasn't posted anything in this thread), in collusion with GJM, are just trolling the rest of us for their own sick amusement and to make us forget about the Brockman lever gun because they don't really want to share.

Now I understand why people follow conspiracy theories, reality is too tough to bear.

[BehindBlueI's]

I thought it was short for Arizona Quick Killer. :)

...Damn it. Thought I figured one out.

[ken grant]

Good bye guys.
Luv a 2 sided discussion but when one side starts calling the other names and belittles them, it is time to go

[Mr_White]

https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5743/23597638760_5f221fb95b.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/BXf4SG)w4s4d (https://flic.kr/p/BXf4SG) by OrigamiAK (https://www.flickr.com/photos/52790396@N08/), on Flickr

[SLG]

Though I deal with it everyday, I am far from an expert on all the nuances of CCW vs. uniform police vs. plainclothes police vs. UC police vs. military vs. SMU vs. UC SMU etc....

There is no question that there are differences, and pretending that the same training works for them all, and that their use of a pistol is essentially the same, seems silly to me. Having said that, I've always said that fighting is fighting is fighting. I'm not suggesting that one group needs sights and the other doesn't. However, the challenge and the go signal for each group can be pretty different. That, combined with the wide variance in the mental and physical training that each group gets, often leads to vastly different success (hit) rates.

So saying that "my" system is the one true way because "X" group in "your" system has a lousy hit rate, is a pretty shallow, self serving way of dealing with the issues.

I don't train to point shoot. I'm rather confident that I could clean whatever standards ass-kicker's system has though. And, if any maestro from that system wants to put it to the test, I'm your huckleberry.

And that's before we talk about bowie fighting:-) Maybe we could have a sister forum, B-F.com?

[SLG]

Good bye guys.
Luv a 2 sided discussion but when one side starts calling the other names and belittles them, it is time to go

I agree with you. However, there are a lot of BTDT guys on this forum, and when people put funny looking videos out, showcasing unsafe weapons handling that looks less than professional, it is hard not to laugh. When legit questions are asked of that person, and they fail to answer in any meaningful way, it just fuels the fire. CAR was taught pretty widely to more groups than most might imagine. Doesn't mean it was actually legit. Most people who still do xyz, really don't want to be shown a better way. That seems to be the case in this case.

[Surf]

Sorry I can't read all of the posts and I usually try to remain pretty agreeable with everyone and would normally not comment in a thread like this however I find myself obligated to say something.

From what I have seen in the video's posted, the firearms skills by the person seen in those video's are very sub-standard for anyone that is training others in defensive firearms, especially anyone in LE or the Military if that is actually happening. I understand that newer shooters have a limited frame of reference on what is quality instruction and are easily fooled. I will also say that there is also a large number of LE and Military that also have substandard firearms skills and who may also have a frame of reference that is poor and are also easily fooled. It is not the worst I have seen but it is still downright disgusting to think that people would be convinced to believe that the person in the video's posted is a professional trainer at any level.

While I participate to a certain degree in edged weapons training, I am far from an expert, however in my own level of skill, I have no issues saying that the knife work was a joke. I would have actually believed that the video's were meant to be spoof video's, but that does not seem to be the case.

While I don't want to lump everyone into a singular category, in general it is people like in these youtube video's, or who are on Glock Talk, arfcom and I'll even throw in THR, that make me want to completely quit the internet. As someone who has devoted almost my entire adult life to my profession of carrying a firearm and as a trainer, stuff like this makes me sick.

[BehindBlueI's]

Good bye guys.
Luv a 2 sided discussion but when one side starts calling the other names and belittles them, it is time to go

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y188/stickjock/CurlyBillWellBye_zpsaa543fcc.jpg

There has been on discussion, however, as every substantial question has been ignored and left unanswered.

[JodyH]

Good bye guys.
Luv a 2 sided discussion but when one side starts calling the other names and belittles them, it is time to go
When one side has been outed as a fraud since at least 2002... there really is nothing to discuss.
There's a reason Brownie was slammed straight away when he arrived on this forum, he has a well documented history of being a joke.

[BehindBlueI's]

When one side has been outed as a fraud since at least 2002... there really is nothing to discuss.
There's a reason Brownie was slammed straight away when he arrived on this forum, he has a well documented history of being a joke.

In fairness, I never heard of the guy until the video was posted in this thread. I arrived at the same conclusion, however, which has only been compounded by his avoidance of simple questions.