EDPs with knives

[Ptrlcop]

Stand by for rambling. I don't necessarily have a question. Looking to generate discussion or have my thoughts challenged.

[url=http://calibrepress.com/2015/12/bodycam-suicide-by-cop-thwarted-with-savvy/]http://calibrepress.com/2015/12/bodycam-suicide-by-cop-thwarted-with-savvy/

Regarding the above video people are praising the cops for not shooting the guy. I assert that the only reason they were not forced to shoot is that the EDP lacked the resolve to make it happen.

This post is not specifically about this video. It is clear that the population is not typically supportive of us shooting suicidal people with blades. In response to that we need to start developing tactics that reduce our need to shoot these people while still protecting everyone above them on the priority of life.

To do this, I think we need to dispose of the idea that we are going to rescue this person from themselves. By putting themselves close enough to "rescue" this EDP they put him above themselves on the priority of life and gave him the ability to use them as implements in his suicide.

The EDP committing self harm is not the center of gravity here, preventing them from harming others is. With that goal in mind, there seemed to be plenty of room to contain him from afar/behind cover and negotiate from a position where the suspect can't force our hand...

Theoretical discussion of response to EDPs welcome.

[jnc36rcpd]

Shooting a suspect with a knife inevitably leads to lawsuits and criticism. As far as I can see, the American people would rather us risk being stabbed than shoot the suspect or EDP.OK, no problem, message received. Back out the perimeter and warn citizens about entering the park/store/museum/neighborhood. This may be extremely onerous on residents, but we all need to invest in the effort to keep from police using force.
If the subject approaches a citizen, yell commands in a loud voice. When the suspect stabs someone, consider using physica force.

[voodoo_man]

Shooting a suspect with a knife inevitably leads to lawsuits and criticism. As far as I can see, the American people would rather us risk being stabbed than shoot the suspect or EDP.OK, no problem, message received. Back out the perimeter and warn citizens about entering the park/store/museum/neighborhood. This may be extremely onerous on residents, but we all need to invest in the effort to keep from police using force.
If the subject approaches a citizen, yell commands in a loud voice. When the suspect stabs someone, consider using physica force.

While this may sound good and all, if a LEO is on scene and EDP has a blade you have to get their attention and in the middle of them and citizens. If an EDP stabs a citizen while you are on scene you will be sued and lose 100%, especially if its been sometime since you got there, you might even get hit with a few department reprimands.

As much as it sucks to shoot an EDP, follow the force continuum, I've done the following with great success.

First responding officer arrives and evaluates scene, requests more officers (specifically a taser equipped Crisis Intervention Trained officer (CIT (http://www.citinternational.org/))

Officer's responding create a barrier and/or isolate the EDP with the weapon (blade in this case) until the CIT officer arrives, communicating in the most non-aggressive way possible, buying time.

Up on arrival the CIT officer takes control of the scene and begins to communicate with the armed EDP.

If the CIT officer feels as though the EDP will not relinquish the weapon the CIT officer signals for two backup officers with firearms ready should taser deployment not work, if other taser trained officer's are there they should be ready as backup to the lead CIT officer on scene, following them should be officers with firearms ready.

The CIT officer deploys taser and effectively incapacitates the EDP, at which time officers make contact and remove the weapon from play. If tasers are ineffective and the EDP becomes more hostile (usually happens) secondary taser discharge is required. If that becomes ineffective the backup officers may consider discharge of their firearms to stop the threat to the unarmed CIT officers discharging tasers.

This can be done with as little as two officers (I've done it with one two officers, three times, all three worked out very well) - especially if both are CIT trained and both have tasers.

The trick is to get the EDP to funnel focus on one officer until backup arrives with a taser.

If tasers are unavailable, bean-bag shotguns are good as well - aim for the weapon on an angle away from the EDP (surprise attack type from an L-shape to the CIT officer).

I have also seen this fail when there are too many officer's on scene, only one should make contact and only one should give commands at one time. Tone of voice is important. The one that I've seen fail is when there were two supervisors on scene of equal rank, yelling at the same kid with a knife (suffering from extreme depression and was actively considering suicide by police), the kid got confused, there were about 7 of us in a semi circle and both supervisors didn't want to give up contact. The kid decided to stand up and try to stab one of the supervisors (we were in a living room, so judge the distance from wall to wall with 7 people in there). He got shot, a lot.

[voodoo_man]

since we are on the topic of EDP's...

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=5e3_1449991277

Guy has a metal pipe, officer's don't really do a good job at containing him - citizens about 20-30 feet away and then they pepper ball him.

[jnc36rcpd]

We may well be sued if an EDP breaks containment and stabs someone. We'll definitely be sued if we shoot the EDP.

Perhaps it is time for one of those "serious conversations" that politicians like to advocate, but tend to be more of a "good talking-to" about how we use too much force. Any deployment of less lethal may quickly escalate into a shooting. In fact, I encourage to consider waiting for back-up before Taser/OC deployment if time allows. Therefore, if the EDP goes wandering down the street in a populated area, we either need to take action or attempt to expand the perimeter and try to move citizens out of the way. If that is what the politicians and media want, then let them say it.

The homicide prosecution of two Albuquerque Police officers for shooting in armed EDP in a mountain recreation area looked to me like an attempt to use less lethal that went sideways. If that could happen to them, it could happen to you or to me. Perhaps it's time let the politicians tell us if we should cede public and private spaces to EDP's to avoid the risk of hurting them. If that is what our elected and appointed officials want, I would have no issue posting signs at the park entrance telling people that the park is closed because an armed EDP wants to live there.

If required to engage the EDP, that's a solid plan you have.

[pablo]

While this may sound good and all, if a LEO is on scene and EDP has a blade you have to get their attention and in the middle of them and citizens. If an EDP stabs a citizen while you are on scene you will be sued and lose 100%, especially if its been sometime since you got there, you might even get hit with a few department reprimands.

Liability wise, in that situation, the police as individuals or an organization have no responsibility to protect a law abiding citizen from harm. It's not a state created danger, and the citizen is not in police custody. Unfortunately this is why most departments drag their feet on policy, training and equipping officers to deal with these situations. There's a zero dollar price tag on a decent person's life and they can spin media angle. If the police shoot the EDP they're is the potential for negative media exposure and lawsuits.

The police IMO still have a moral obligation to act, but that's a different argument.

[LSP972]

In the pre-Taser days, the response was was pretty much tailored to the situation. If it was "only" a short blade, and there were enough bodies on hand, the junior man was handed whatever long implement (shovels work pretty good) might be handy and sent in. Usually, though, there was always a deputy or city cop who was feeling brave and wanted to be a hero, so...

I had already seen, while in the army, what a man skilled with a knife can do to another man in the blink of an eye, and had long established MY criteria; if was just me, or maybe one other cop, the knife-wielder was one shot sumbitch if he didn't put it down and get away from it.

Funny story; a legendary BRPD detective rolled up on an 80-year old man holding half of the 1st District night crew at bay, with a butcher knife, on his front porch. None of the younger cops wanted to be the one to Tase or otherwise "subdue" the old man. Ben, in plainclothes and with no Taser, went around to the side of the house, found a piece of 2X4 in the inevitable trash pile, got up on the porch and brained the old guy with it, ending the confrontation. Of course, the media flacks were there, live at five. Later, the chief asked our boy, "Ben, did you really beat that old man with a 2X4?"

"Yes."

"Why???"

"Because I couldn't find a 4X6."

With all the non-lethal options available today, I really don't see where this is a huge issue.

.

[Hambo]

Here's what an EDP can do with a blade.

http://www.wpbf.com/news/kevin-adorno-man-fatally-stabbed-by-homeless-man-at-mcdonalds-in-vero-beach/27837406

Instead of getting all kumbaya about crazy people with knives, why not educate the public on just how dangerous they are? I'm not willing to play fuck around with them I wouldn't ask anyone else to either.