Dry fire your carry gun- how can I avoid setback or chewing through ammo?

[Notso]

This may be a totally stupid question with a very simple answer but I'm looking for some input and feedback. I dry fire a lot- no close ranges and too little time so I try to dry fire at least three times a week. Clearly every time I dry fire I'm unloading and then reloading for carry when I'm complete. To keep from having setback issues, I try not to load the same round more than twice (the initial loading and then the next time when I actually fire it). With 500 rds of carry ammo I see that as 500 times to to load that lot of ammo for carry conditions. I guess if I was actually downloading and then reloading 3 times a week a 500 round lot would last 3 years if I do the math right at which point its probably time for some fresh ammo. Maybe I just answered my own question. What do you guys think?

[Chuck Haggard]

With handguns I'm OK with the round being loaded four times, as long as visual inspection shows it's not mess up earlier.

[Chuck Whitlock]

With handguns I'm OK with the round being loaded four times, as long as visual inspection shows it's not mess up earlier.

I believe it was Claude Warner who said to hit the rim of the case with a Sharpie when it comes out of the chamber. Four tick marks and it goes into the training pile.

[Luke]

I place the bullet into the chamber and then close the slide with just enough force to go into battery. I dry fire my carry gun every day sometimes multiple times a day, I have NEVER seen a case show any signs of set back. I never ever ever normally rack a round out of the mag unless I plan to fire that round. I also gently unchamber it as well.

[SLG]

Can't tell if serious...

I know, right?

[HCM]

I place the bullet into the chamber and then close the slide with just enough force to go into battery. I dry fire my carry gun every day sometimes multiple times a day, I have NEVER seen a case show any signs of set back. I never ever ever normally rack a round out of the mag unless I plan to fire that round. I also gently unchamber it as well.

Most factory armorer programs recommend that you feed rounds from the magazine and not drop them in the chamber and close the slide. I would worry about reliability issues following this practice on a carry gun.

Bullet setback is not the only concern with chambering rounds over and over again. Depending on the gun it can also chew up the rim of the cartridge case and repeatedly chambering the same round also produces small impacts on the primer. It's not enough to set the round off but if repeated enough times it can damage the primer and caused around to fail to fire. A few years ago there was a documented case of this occurring. Gwinnett County Georgia.had an officer who unloaded and reloaded his duty weapon every day for a period of approximately nine months. The officer was then involved in a deadly force situation where his first round failed to fire. Subsequent investigation revealed no defects in the weapon. Chaimbering the same round every day for nine months had knocked the anvil inside the primer cup loose, causing it not to fire.

We teach our officers/agents to lock their handguns up loaded in there issued lockbox and not to trust a round for Carry after two chamberings. A handgun round can probably go for or five but we stick to two for consistency between the handgun the M4 and the shotgun.

As Tom stated above, if you are dry firing three times or more per week you really need a dedicated training gun or a substitute like a SIRT or a Glock red handle. Springs wear based on the number of cycles so dry fire will induce premature wear in a carry gun and Murphy's Law says you will find out about this at the worst possible moment.

Having two or three copies of your carry gun is obviously easier with a Glock then a Wilson 1911 but if you are serious enough to be dry firing multiple times per week it's a worthwhile investment.

[Luke]

Can't tell if serious...

Heck yea. You can even put a little lube on the case to make it go in easier.

[SLG]

You must buy in bulk (http://www.amazon.com/dp/B005MR3IVO).

Enough derailment (by me anyhow).

I think he just puts the tip in. Less rim damage that way.

[pangloss]

To get back to the original question, I lock the slide back, insert loaded magazine, then with my support hand, pull back on the slide and slowly ride it forward. The bullet feeds out of the magazine, but it doesn't get slammed into the chamber as would be the case when the weapon cycles after firing. I probably never do this to a single round more than half a dozen times, as I have a dedicated G19 practice gun now. If an extra gun is out of the question, I'd probably just move the top round out of the mag to the practice pile every week. That way one box of carry ammo will last you about a year.

[dbateman]

I place the bullet into the chamber and then close the slide with just enough force to go into battery. I dry fire my carry gun every day sometimes multiple times a day, I have NEVER seen a case show any signs of set back. I never ever ever normally rack a round out of the mag unless I plan to fire that round. I also gently unchamber it as well.

What pistol are you shooting ?

[dbateman]

To answer the question I try to buy two of the same guns, I have dedicated training mags and dummy rounds.
I'll often just inspect the round and if it looks ok run it, I have noticed the damage to case rims that HCM mentioned (good post by the way). If I have any doubts I just bin it, I don't even chuck it in training ammo because it somehow ends up in match ammo.

Most of the issues I see with setback are from topping mags off. I don't think that's Something that happens much with pistols ?

[BehindBlueI's]

Yet another argument for how revolvers are awesome.

[Kyle Reese]

To answer the question I try to buy two of the same guns, I have dedicated training mags and dummy rounds.
I'll often just inspect the round and if it looks ok run it, I have noticed the damage to case rims that HCM mentioned (good post by the way). If I have any doubts I just bin it, I don't even chuck it in training ammo because it somehow ends up in match ammo.

Most of the issues I see with setback are from topping mags off. I don't think that's Something that happens much with pistols ?

That's precisely what I recommend. Two (or even three) identical carry / training guns, where one remains in a constant state of readiness, and the other(s) are relegated to training / dry practice use.

[Gray222]

Only reason I have another g19 is because when i shoot someone i won't get the gun back anytime soon and i need another gun to carry in the meantime without changing my setup.

I train with my edc g19. If it breaks, it breaks. Is do an inspection once a month to make sure there arent obvious issues.

Nothing i have is "dedicated to training" other than training blades. I dont on a blue gun and ive broken enough sirts to stop buying them.

[DocGKR]

The problems with repeatedly chambering rounds has also been noted in OCONUS combat the past decade. Below is a comment written by a highly skilled combat veteran regarding his experience fighting OCONUS with ammo that had been re-chambered:


"My first shooting in Iraq I threw my M4A1 on semi and ATTEMPTED to fire a controlled pair (first round functioned striking the threat and the second round did not function). I then transitioned to my secondary (Glock 19 shooting ball) and had a failure to fire on my first round....I was Waaaaaay behind the power curve at this point. At this point I was contemplating all of my various bad life decisions which had lead me to that point in my life and grabbed an M240B and solved the problem. I AM VERY LUCKY TO STILL BE UPRIGHT AND BREATHING TODAY....the cause of these malfunctions you ask? Repeated chamberings of the same ammo. I made a decision that day that my life was more important than following archaic rules written by those who sit behind desks and started shitcanning rounds after I was forced to clear weapons on U.S. Military installations. The .gov can fuckin bill me."

Once a round has been chambered in a weapon, Do NOT re-chamber it for duty use. Do NOT re-chamber it again, except for training. This is CRITICAL for both rifles as well as handguns!!!

[SLG]

The only thing I would add to what Doc said is that weapons are not meant to be cycled gently. Work it hard, and let the round seat under full spring tension. This is important in several ways, and should not be neglected.

[Notso]

I hear you guys on having an identical second gun and I usually do. The problem is I have a safe full of duplicates as I've moved along the journey and the thought of buying a second P2000 right now makes me cringe. Even worse, I usually modify my guns as I get them and of course by the time I'm through with it re-selling them does not look like a great proposition (or at least a viable financial one). I agree with all of your comments though; two or three identical guns is probably the way to go and I permanently mark any round chambered with a sharpie and then put it in the training bin to be shot at the range the next time.

BehindBluel- I did have that thought about revolvers last night but that opens up a whole 'nother ball of wax for me that I'm not ready to get into.

[Chris Rhines]

I'm going to do a little experiment this evening. Stand by.

[Lomshek]

I'm going to do a little experiment this evening. Stand by.

I've tested various rounds for set back by repeatedly chambering them (letting the slide fly forward) over and over and checking them with calipers. Some rounds will start setting back sooner than others and some guns will set rounds back sooner than others.

I'll take the advice of experts and not play the odds. An ate up primer is something I can't measure and don't want to find out about at the wrong moment.

[Beat Trash]

Some rounds suffer setback easier than others do. The old Silvertip 45 loading was horribly easy to induce setback. I would strongly recommend you rotate the rounds. If money is tight, then take the previously chambered round and put it on the bottom of your magazine. You should periodically shoot your carry ammunition in your gun, if for no other reason than to ensure it will function in your gun. Once the round you previously chambered and put on the bottom of the magazine reached the top of the magazine, then it's time to shoot up that magazine at the range. You should rotate your carry ammo anyway. This is an easy way to do so.

If you ever happen to come across a round that exhibits noticeable bullet setback, do NOT fire this round. Pushing the round back into the case can cause dramatic increase in chamber pressure when the round is fired. Better to dispose of the round than to blow up a gun, or you hand...

Carry ammo is expensive, but it's a matter of perspective. Bullets are cheap, life is not.

Not sure where the joking starts and stops in the topic drifts in this discussion, but do NOT load your gun by dropping a round into the chamber and close the slide. I've seen enough broken extractors to learn why this is a bad thing.

To the OP, if you really like the P2000 you use as a carry gun, I'd consider selling off something in the safe that is collecting dust and buy a second P2000. Not only can you use the second gun as a dry fire/practice gun, but you'll have something to fall back on if you ever are involved in a shooting. Because you can be assured that the gun you use in a shooting will be taken into evidence and stay there until the court proceedings are concluded or until the Grand Jury comes back with a "No Bill'. Same thing happens as a LEO involved with a OIS incident.

DocGKR has recommended buying three of the same gun for a while. One to carry, one to train with and one as a vetted spare. Very sound logic. One could get by with just two, by eliminating the vetted spare and have the training gun do double duty. Although my "Vetted Spare" also serves as a dedicated "House Gun" that lives in a secured and concealed location within the household. Kind of like a fire extinguisher, always in the same spot, in case of need. Those of age who live in my house know where it resides.

[HCM]

I hear you guys on having an identical second gun and I usually do. The problem is I have a safe full of duplicates as I've moved along the journey and the thought of buying a second P2000 right now makes me cringe. Even worse, I usually modify my guns as I get them and of course by the time I'm through with it re-selling them does not look like a great proposition (or at least a viable financial one). I agree with all of your comments though; two or three identical guns is probably the way to go and I permanently mark any round chambered with a sharpie and then put it in the training bin to be shot at the range the next time.

BehindBluel- I did have that thought about revolvers last night but that opens up a whole 'nother ball of wax for me that I'm not ready to get into.

Not sure how long ago you bought your P2000 but HK dropped prices on the P2000 last year. If you look on line you should be able to find one for $599ish.

It's all the other stuff, holsters magazines spare guns, sights, etc that make platform hopping so expensive.

[eyemahm]

The only thing I would add to what Doc said is that weapons are not meant to be cycled gently. Work it hard, and let the round seat under full spring tension. This is important in several ways, and should not be neglected.

Can you elaborate on "several ways"?

Assuming we have a hammer fired gun and you mean "under full [recoil] spring tension," as long as after chambering the extractor holds the case rim and the slide is in battery, what else is important?

[BehindBlueI's]

The problems with repeatedly chambering rounds has also been noted in OCONUS combat the past decade. Below is a comment written by a highly skilled combat veteran regarding his experience fighting OCONUS with ammo that had been re-chambered:



Once a round has been chambered in a weapon, Do NOT re-chamber it for duty use. Do NOT re-chamber it again, except for training. This is CRITICAL for both rifles as well as handguns!!!

How does the force of being chambered differ from the life of a military cartridge being transported, bouncing around in a vehicle, etc?

I understand an abundance of caution, but I've not yet seen an issue with cartridges cycled a few times, and as we have 1600+ officers, 2-4 inservices a year, and only get issued ammo either every year or every other year, you'd think we'd have seen some issues over the years if one rechamber was causing any significant issue.

I suspect there's a bit of extremism on both sides of this, never rechamber vs rechambering never hurts.

[Beat Trash]

Bullet setback can occur when the cartridge is slammed into the feed ramp during the loading process. This is not a factor when ammunition is bounced around in a vehicle. In addition, military rifle ammunition is crimped at the case mouth. This is done to help prevent case setback.

Some manufactures' rounds are better than others at withstanding this.

We have about 1,200 officers, issue ammunition annually. I have personally experienced it with the original Patrol Rifle duty ammunition which was the 55 gr Winchester Silvertip. Initial chambering of one round had set the bullet back to where the plastic tip was flush with the end of the casing, causing powder to spill inside of the gun. This was not at training, but while managing a scene of a bank robbery where the suspect car jacked two separate vehicles in an attempt to escape. I had no idea this had occurred until I took the round out of the chamber to put the carbine back in my car. This example leads to another topic of why it's important to match the round to the weapons platform. This was a bad combination, and the selection was made by someone with no experience and no business making the decision.

I was involved with the selection process for new duty ammo in 2011. Because of what I saw with the previous rounds, a crimped case mouth was on the top of my list of things I wanted. Our new duty round for the AR is the Winchester RA556B, which I believe is crimped.

I've seen bullet setback on the CCI Gold Dot rounds, and back in the day, on the Winchester Silvertip. Our original 9mm duty round was the Winchester 147 gr loading (now the white box load). On occasion you would see bullet set back. Not too sever, but noticeable. As I mentioned, the act of setting the bullet back in the case decreases the case volume and increases the pressures when the round is fired. Our new pistol duty round is the Winchester 147 gr RA9T, Ranger-T series. These rounds seem to withstand bullet setback rather well. But I still encourage my officers to rotate their rounds.

[TAZ]

I tend to start a range session with a mag of defensive ammo as a base line. With that in mind I do the Sharpie thing so I can have defensive annoying for the range. I've measured and measured and measured OAL after repeated chamberings and have yet to measure anything past measurement system noise. But then that is my gun and my ammo. Doesn't necessary apply to everyone else. $20-$30 a month on cycling defensive ammo regularly isn't that steep a price for stuff you're betting your life on.

[BehindBlueI's]

Initial chambering of one round had set the bullet back to where the plastic tip was flush with the end of the casing, causing powder to spill inside of the gun.

So in that case, ONE chambering of the cartridge caused extremely significant setback. So that's a failure with zero "rechamberings" of the cartridge if I read you right.

I suppose that's my point. If someone is going to tell me to NEVER rechamber ammo, I want to know how they arrived there. Anecdotal information can "prove" nearly anything. I'd like to know, has anyone done some controlled experiments and seen any statistical difference in rounds that have been rechambered a set number of times vs fired on it's initial time in the chamber. I suspect once will have no statistical difference and 5000 probably will, but where in the middle does it become something realistic to worry about?

Personally, I'm not going to chuck a duty round in the practice bin because I cycled it. I'm also not going to stop dry firing or going to the range to practice. I suppose I could buy a duplicate gun strictly for training or never use a duty round that had been chambered once, but that seems overkill and the money spent in practicing with duty ammo or buying a second gun would limit the training and practice budget for many folks. If you have an unlimited budget for such things, or have an agency that will provide them for you and has a nearly unlimited budget, find, chuck it after one chambering if you like. That's an unrealistic thing to ask of most gun toters, though, especially if you want to encourage practice and dry firing.

[Luke]

I understand keeping an eye on boolets and regularly swapping them out, but if I can't trust a round to chamber twice how can I trust it to chamber once? One guy on here said his round set back so far that it was loosing powder!? After one chamber? I do agree that AR's are a TOTALLY different animal and I never ever chamber more than once unless plinking ammo.

[breakingtime91]

I understand keeping an eye on boolets and regularly swapping them out, but if I can't trust a round to chamber twice how can I trust it to chamber once? One guy on here said his round set back so far that it was loosing powder!? After one chamber? I do agree that AR's are a TOTALLY different animal and I never ever chamber more than once unless plinking ammo.

Same with the AR. I keep my house AR condition 3 if it ever needs to be used. I edge on the side of caution with carry ammo but found in my experience if you live in the middle ground you should be fine. Everyone has priorities, my issue is I seem to always miss when duty ammo is in stock :/

[HeadHunter]

Since I'm well into my second run of 1000 Days of Dryfire, I'm dryfiring every day. I put a Sharpie mark on the base of the cartridge before I chamber it. When it has four tick marks, it goes to the bottom of the magazine. When all the rounds have four marks, I shoot them up at the range.

I've been using this method for about two years now; so far, no rounds have failed to fire. That record makes me comfortable with it. It means I go through a box of anti-personnel ammo every 200 days. I'm using Winchester Ranger SXT 147 gr 9mm.

[Peally]

I'm cheap, and when I buy duty ammo I like to buy enough to fill all of my magazines from the same lot number, so I tend to carry ammo around far longer than I probably should.

Guess I'm lazy. The tick mark thing isn't a bad idea.

[Clusterfrack]

Federal HST 147 COL: 1.1250"

After chambering 10x in p320c: 1.1250"

[SLG]

Couple things.

I don't think anyone is saying that a round becomes unserviceable after one chambering. What I am saying is that ammo costs very little (though I don't actually foot the bill now, I still did this back when I did pay for it myself) and that being conservative, in this case not re-chambering a round, is worth it for the possible problems it avoids. If you feel like you have to re-chamber your carry ammo once, twice or more times, have at it. Not my concern. I did that once upon a time, and I don't anymore. When I did do it (briefly) I did it the way Headhunter describes, though minus the sharpie. I just counted rds and rotated. Probably not the best idea.


"Can you elaborate on "several ways"?

Assuming we have a hammer fired gun and you mean "under full [recoil] spring tension," as long as after chambering the extractor holds the case rim and the slide is in battery, what else is important?"

That's two right there, though I would say that striker fired guns need and work the same way, in this instance. A third is that some guns will shoot to a different POI with hand cycled rounds compared to recoil cycled rounds. To get around that, I have often loaded my duty mag under my last chambered practice round and let the gun load itself for me when I pull the trigger. When I don't do that, I try to replicate it as best I can by allowing the slide to fly under full tension. It may or may not change the poi, but the gun is designed to operate at full speed and I think it best to let that happen. All sorts of guns can fail to go into battery when you ease them forward, and then you have induced a malfunction. Do you tap rack, or do you gently push on the rear of the slide when fixing malfunctions? I prefer not to induce them to begin with.

As always, what other people do is up to them.

[11B10]

Duty/defensive ammo (9mm) costs what, $0.50 per round? Practice ammo is closer to $0.20 per round. Even if you dry fire every day with your carry gun, and every day you relegate your chambered round to the practice bin, you are looking at ~$9 a month in additional ammo cost. Does that really require an unlimited, or nearly unlimited, budget to pull off?

Tom, I picked your post only because it referred specifically to 9mm, plus since I've been reading pf, it seems the majority of the ops here also shoot 9mm. I have a Sig P320C in .45 ACP - does the caliber make any significant difference?

[TGS]

Federal HST 147 COL: 1.1250"

After chambering 10x in p320c: 1.1250"

Ditto.

I've never had a problem with quality defensive ammo being cycled repeatedly in a SIG or HK (both 9mms). I did it on purpose with 2 guns, sitting there rechambering the same few rounds from different lots (HST, Gold Dot and Ranger 127gr) over and over. (a LOT more than 10 times). Not only were they fine OAL, but their primers did not fall apart as evidenced by the fact they fired. I have no experience with 357SIG, 40 or 45......I've never even owned a 45, and have only ever fired 50 rounds each of 357 and 40 out of my SIG which I converted to 9mm with a P228 upper.

380s? Yes, I've seen setback after 1-2 times....except for my MDE and the Buffalo Bore it has. My Kahr P380 would rape the shit out of rounds, and that might have had something to do with it being a massive coat hanger abortion (Reliability wise).

I'm inclined to believe that the primer component failing on that 1 singular round that was recycled is more evidence of a faulty round, and that it probably would have failed just from being jostled in field use, anyway. I'm also inclined to put more value in my actual simple yet statistically valid testing as opposed to one or two poorly documented anecdotes which fail to actually assess the failure mode, and instead make a complete guess.

If I have a free supply of ammo, I'll just use a fresh round. So far in life I haven't really seen this evidenced as a legit problem, however....more just a cautionary thing, like decocking a firearm placed in storage. So, I don't really care to do it with personally bought ammo. I think the "it'll get you killed" comments are a bit zealous, and at least lacking any credible evidence whatsoever.

[BehindBlueI's]

Duty/defensive ammo (9mm) costs what, $0.50 per round? Practice ammo is closer to $0.20 per round. Even if you dry fire every day with your carry gun, and every day you relegate your chambered round to the practice bin, you are looking at ~$9 a month in additional ammo cost. Does that really require an unlimited, or nearly unlimited, budget to pull off?

I was referring more to the "get three guns" approach, but there was a time in my life when $9 was a lot of money.

To me today? No. To the guy who's doing good to get a Kel-tec to the range every other month, maybe. To an individual? Probably not. To a department, maybe. I'm issued 46 rounds every 18 months-ish. I'm required to carry that ammo when carrying my issued gun. They aren't going to reissue me every 46 days.

[BehindBlueI's]

I don't think anyone is saying that a round becomes unserviceable after one chambering.


Once a round has been chambered in a weapon, Do NOT re-chamber it for duty use. Do NOT re-chamber it again, except for training. This is CRITICAL for both rifles as well as handguns!!!

Perhaps I misread, but it sure seemed to indicate it to me. I'm willing to listen to the reasoning behind it beyond the anecdote presented, and that's why I asked.

[BehindBlueI's]

Sorry, my mistake. This is the sentence that confused me:



$9 is still a lot of money to me. I make up for it, as one PF member recently discovered, by not drinking coffee. :)

No, it's not your fault you read what I actually wrote, not what I thought as I wrote it, and responded accordingly. That's on me, as I completely see how you can read it that way.

Now...this coffee abstinence thing...that's just wrong.

[Chuck Haggard]

Now...this coffee abstinence thing...that's just wrong.

Word

[Chuck Haggard]

I had been the guy pushing at my old job for less time on duty ammo, at one point they didn't swap out duty ammo until some people had been carrying the same ammo for seven years. In a number of cases we had dead rounds when we did fire up the old stuff.

One incident I recall vividly, I ordered my SWAT team to dig their duty rifle ammo back out of the cars and shoot it up in the qual and training we were about to do. Duty ammo was two years old.

In that first string of fire I had 14 out of 16 guys dry firing on dead rounds.

Yes, ARs are harder on ammo than pistols, typically. It was a glaring example of how bad this stuff can get if we let it.

From lot-to-lot variations the very same brand and type of pistol ammo can exhibit compression or not in a certain number of cycles through the gun. That several incidents have occurred where guns were blown up by this unload/reload habit is a historical fact.

[TGS]

That several incidents have occurred where guns were blown up by this unload/reload habit is a historical fact.

What caliber?

I'm guessing 40.......

[HCM]

Ditto.

I've never had a problem with quality defensive ammo being cycled repeatedly in a SIG or HK (both 9mms). I did it on purpose with 2 guns, sitting there rechambering the same few rounds from different lots (HST, Gold Dot and Ranger 127gr) over and over. (a LOT more than 10 times). Not only were they fine OAL, but their primers did not fall apart as evidenced by the fact they fired. I have no experience with 357SIG, 40 or 45......I've never even owned a 45, and have only ever fired 50 rounds each of 357 and 40 out of my SIG which I converted to 9mm with a P228 upper.

380s? Yes, I've seen setback after 1-2 times....except for my MDE and the Buffalo Bore it has. My Kahr P380 would rape the shit out of rounds, and that might have had something to do with it being a massive coat hanger abortion (Reliability wise).

I'm inclined to believe that the primer component failing on that 1 singular round that was recycled is more evidence of a faulty round, and that it probably would have failed just from being jostled in field use, anyway. I'm also inclined to put more value in my actual simple yet statistically valid testing as opposed to one or two poorly documented anecdotes which fail to actually assess the failure mode, and instead make a complete guess.

If I have a free supply of ammo, I'll just use a fresh round. So far in life I haven't really seen this evidenced as a legit problem, however....more just a cautionary thing, like decocking a firearm placed in storage. So, I don't really care to do it with personally bought ammo. I think the "it'll get you killed" comments are a bit zealous, and at least lacking any credible evidence whatsoever.

I'm inclined to make sure I go home at the end of the night and I'm responsible to ensure my people do the same. As they say it's not the odds, it's the stakes.

[TGS]

PTLA had a Glock 22 disassemble itself at LANL in 2006:

http://www.thegunzone.com/glock/setback.html

Predictably. Lots of that going around on the interwebs with 40s.

I'm not aware of any kabooms in 9mm from setback with quality defensive ammo. Anyone?

[Chuck Haggard]

I am aware of two presumed setback incidents with 9mms, both local. While the guns weren't blown up like the G22s that I have seen, having a case head blow out and the magazine leaving the gun at speed is not a quality gunfight winning tactic IMHO.

[tanner]

We have 10 ARs in service as rack guns for those who either didn't want to purchase their own through the dept or for the probationary guys who aren't allowed to buy their own yet. We have several mags in service for those guns. Once when I spot checked them, all 10 of the top rounds had several visible primer dents and the bullets were spinning in the case.

Would have been a click vs bang scenario for sure.

I pay attention to the duty pistol ammo, but haven't personally seen any issues with mine or other officer's ammo to date.

[Hambo]

I was referring more to the "get three guns" approach, but there was a time in my life when $9 was a lot of money.

To me today? No. To the guy who's doing good to get a Kel-tec to the range every other month, maybe. To an individual? Probably not. To a department, maybe. I'm issued 46 rounds every 18 months-ish. I'm required to carry that ammo when carrying my issued gun. They aren't going to reissue me every 46 days.

This is an unfortunate reality in a lot of agencies. A friend worked for a department where they were issued enough ammo to load three mags plus one in the chamber, no more. Ammo was issued annually unless they shot somebody. Eventually the FTOs changed and the graciously gave officers full 50 round box, which at least allowed them to toss rounds if they had been chambered multiple times.

In the course of a year I don't unload my carry guns frequently. When I do, I swap the chambered round with one from the magazine and drive on.

[SLG]

Perhaps I misread, but it sure seemed to indicate it to me. I'm willing to listen to the reasoning behind it beyond the anecdote presented, and that's why I asked.

I feel a little silly responding to this, but Doc is the go to guy for ammo testing. Do you really think he thinks that ammo stops working after a second chambering? Or maybe he's trying to tell you that in his experience, you are really better off not playing the odds. After all, it's your life we're talking about.

[KevinB]

To get back to the original question, I lock the slide back, insert loaded magazine, then with my support hand, pull back on the slide and slowly ride it forward. The bullet feeds out of the magazine, but it doesn't get slammed into the chamber as would be the case when the weapon cycles after firing. I probably never do this to a single round more than half a dozen times, as I have a dedicated G19 practice gun now. If an extra gun is out of the question, I'd probably just move the top round out of the mag to the practice pile every week. That way one box of carry ammo will last you about a year.
FWIW - that can often cause more issues than chambering them correctly from the mag -- the feeding geometry of the gun is designed with the slide velocity from firing. Often if you slow the slide - the round will not be feed at the correct angle - and you will get more impact on the bullet than intended.

Very easy to watch on high-speed video.

[Dave J]

I've found that I normally burn a moderate amount of carry ammo verifying zero and doing distance/accuracy work, so I don't really view it as a loss to set aside chambered rounds for that purpose.

This thread does have me wondering if it'd be a good idea to make sure that spare mags carried in the trunk are padded a bit to reduce vibration, and maybe cycling out a carry mag if it's been dropped on a hard surface.

[RJ]

Good thread.

FWIW I had the same question last year; OP, I don't think it is a dumb question at all:

https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?13191-Effect-on-Ammo-of-Frequently-Reloading-HD-Weapon

I ended up with this:

1) ID a mag specifically for HD rounds somehow (paint baseplate red, etc.) Load HD Mag with e.g. Speer GD. Chamber a round.

2) Place gun on bedside.

3) If trip to range:

Drop HD mag. Insert Target mag, shoot off chambered HD round as part of range session.

Complete range session, empty pistol.

Insert HD mag and chamber a round. Drop HD mag, grab one HD round, re-insert mag.

Resume at step 2).

My take away from this thread is consistent with my thread; namely, you can do what you like, it's your life, but the folks who have a lot more experience than I do are suggesting not to rechamber SD ammo.

For me, I think a box or two a year of Speer GD 124 grain ammo is a good tradeoff for enhanced reliability for my HD pistol. Ok, back to lurk mode. :cool:

[HCM]

Good thread.

FWIW I had the same question last year; OP, I don't think it is a dumb question at all:

https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?13191-Effect-on-Ammo-of-Frequently-Reloading-HD-Weapon

I ended up with this:

1) ID a mag specifically for HD rounds somehow (paint baseplate red, etc.) Load HD Mag with e.g. Speer GD. Chamber a round.

2) Place gun on bedside.

3) If trip to range:

Drop HD mag. Insert Target mag, shoot off chambered HD round as part of range session.

Complete range session, empty pistol.

Insert HD mag and chamber a round. Drop HD mag, grab one HD round, re-insert mag.

Resume at step 2).

My take away from this thread is consistent with my thread; namely, you can do what you like, it's your life, but the folks who have a lot more experience than I do are suggesting not to rechamber SD ammo.

For me, I think a box or two a year of Speer GD 124 grain ammo is a good tradeoff for enhanced reliability for my HD pistol. Ok, back to lurk mode. :cool:

Just a little follow-up to what Rich mentioned above. Self-defense and duty ammo is significantly cheaper when you buy it in a 50 round boxes from online ammo sellers or police supply stores such as SG ammo or GT distributors.

You can get a 50 round box of Speer gold.from the sources for two or three dollars more than the 20 round boxes sold in many retail stores.

[Mitchell, Esq.]

I use SIRT pistols or a J-Frame with a penny on the front sight for dry fire.

When I do dry fire with my carry gun I mark the chambered round and place it back in the magazine. If it has more than 4 marks, it's range ammo.

When I get to shoot (less than I would like...) all marked ammo, regardless of how many marks, is shot.

Considering I do almost all my dry fire that way, I don't feel I'm in danger of ruining my carry ammo.

That said, if a round even looks a bit suspicious - gone like a Twinkie at a weight watchers convention.

[Chuck Haggard]

............., but there was a time in my life when $9 was a lot of money.

To me today? No. To the guy who's doing good to get a Kel-tec to the range every other month, maybe. To an individual? Probably not. To a department, maybe. I'm issued 46 rounds every 18 months-ish. I'm required to carry that ammo when carrying my issued gun. They aren't going to reissue me every 46 days.

I get the money is tight for some people issue. At one point in my life I was out of a job, sleeping in the back seat of a '73 Chevy Nova and living on 5 for a dollar ramen noodles.
I also get the "department ain't buying me any duty ammo" thing, I had to deal with exactly that for much of my career.

All of the above is one reason why I think folks on a very limited budget might maybe ought to think about a wheelgun. You can load/unload a revolver without damaging the carry rounds, and get a ton of good dry work in with snap caps, including dry fire and reloads.

I helped a friend out in getting a CCW/house gun a couple of years ago. The solution included a S&W SD9, CRitical Defense ammo for carry, and using WWB for practice. He could afford one trip the the range a month, and a box of WWB ball ammo. Critical Defense is not on Doc's list, but it works pretty decent for non-cop duty, it's cannelured and crimped to help avoid set-back, and recoil and POI is the same as the WWB. He uses the Claude "mark the base of the bullet with a Sharpie, throw in into the range can when it gets four hash marks on it" trick. His fall back ammo is WWB JHPs, again not optimal, but he does stop cars for a living either.

[BehindBlueI's]

I feel a little silly responding to this, but Doc is the go to guy for ammo testing. Do you really think he thinks that ammo stops working after a second chambering? Or maybe he's trying to tell you that in his experience, you are really better off not playing the odds. After all, it's your life we're talking about.

Then it would seem he would have the answer about controlled tests. I'm sure if I threw out some anecdotes about 9mm failing and said not to carry 9mm, that would be challenged. Not sure why this is any different.

[BehindBlueI's]

Doc has an entire Ammunition sub-forum (https://pistol-forum.com/forumdisplay.php?19-Ammunition) that he moderates. That is where he posts the results of the research that he is allowed to share publicly.

In this thread he shared his advice and an anecdote (yes, just an anecdote) that supports and illustrates his opinion and preference. If everyone here was required to cite a published controlled test before stating their opinion, this would be one hell of a boring forum. I personally value Doc's opinion and contribution to the forum. If his opinion is of less value to you in this case because he didn't cite research to support it, that's cool, you are free to discount it or ignore it completely.

With regard to your 9mm failing and being challenged analogy, it's not really apt. If you were to say that, it's much more likely that people would tell you that you were wrong and point to research that supports their contention and not tell you that you had to provide that info -- or at least that's been the way I've seen most things like that play out on PF.

I agree that it would be nice to see some reasearch that indicates one way or another. I think Headhunter's 1000 days of dryfire and his experience is a valuable contribution to this discussion. But, as I pointed out earlier in this thread. This is, at most, a $9 a month problem. As such, I'm completely comfortable avoiding it entirely by never rechambering a round in a carry gun. You may have a different threshold and rationale. That's cool. :cool:

I'm not questioning the guy's bonafides, nor am I suggesting every post has to have a thesis attached. I'm asking if he has relevant data to back it up, and if anyone has tested a rechambering at 5 times, 10 times, 20 times, etc. and seen where a statistical difference is noted. I get this may not be of any interest to some. It is of interest to me. The forum would also be boring if we didn't ask questions or try to gain more information on things that interest us. I'm not attacking Doc, nor dismissing him. I want to know what he bases his opinion on, particularly with such a strong statement. Particularly since we've seen no issues with pistol ammo being rechambered a modest number of times, so it is counter to what I've observed over the years.

It's a $9/month problem for you. I can introduce you to about 1600 guys who the issue is not money, but policy, when it comes to replacing ammo. Having some firm data on the topic would be really really helpful if the policy is in error, especially as we are encouraged to dry fire between range sessions. I can also tell you most aren't going to fork over the money for a practice only pistol, their duty gun is their one handgun.

[Luke]

Does a nickel case last longer at the rim than a brass? Just curious as I've never had brass cased defensive ammo.

[Dropkick]

As of late, for me, it's been a "I can't find my carry ammo in stock" kind of problem. :(

[DocGKR]

A large SWAT team in this area had a failure to fire from an M4 with Hornady TAP ammo during an entry--fortunately no officers were hurt and the suspect immediately threw down his weapon when the carbine went click instead of bang. After the incident was concluded, the team went to the range and expended the rest of their carbine ammo and had one additional failure to fire. This same team had 3 Hornady TAP rounds fail to fire in training a couple of years ago. When Pat Rogers was teaching a class at a nearby agency, there were 5 failures to fire using Hornady TAP ammo. In all 10 cases, there appeared to be good primer strikes, but no rounds fired. On analysis, the ammunition had powder and checked out otherwise.

http://i459.photobucket.com/albums/qq319/DocGKR/BadSWATPrimers.jpg

However, despite what appeared to be good primer strikes, two problems were discovered. First, when accurately measured, some of the primer strikes had insufficient firing pin indentations. The failed round from the potential OIS incident had a primer strike of only .013"—the minimum firing pin indent for ignition is .017". In addition, the primers on the other rounds were discovered to have been damaged from repeated chambering. When the same cartridge is repeatedly chambered in the AR15, the floating firing pin lightly taps the primer; with repeated taps, the primer compound gets crushed, resulting in inadequate ignition characteristics--despite what appears to be a normal firing pin impression.

[Notso]

I don't know where you guys were when I was overseas in '03 but I used to load and unload the same round every time I flew and used to see those indentations. I knew they were from the floating pin but I had no idea the damage it was causing! Thank god I had bigger tools available than my M4 but after that I was always weary of rechambering the same round. After re-loading for pistol I learned of setback and hence later started this thread- which has opened a box for some. I think in the end, like most things, everyone has to make their own decisions. I think it's fair to say that *most* of the time setback in pistol rounds is not a problem. However, that same probability and logic is why we carry concealed- *most* of the time we don't need to... BUT the one time you need it... Hope is never a good course of action but life is about probabilities. (Though, in my experience, a little guy named Murphy has an uncanny way of playing his best hand at the worst time.)

Tom, good point on the HK TRS. I was aware of this and have spares for P30 and HK45 but forgot to truly take that into the equation for the P2000 dryfire.

And I forgot who said to sell some and get some spares- you're probably right. It hurts but it's time to make some space. Plus I could use the cash for my yearly class next year.

[BehindBlueI's]

As of late, for me, it's been a "I can't find my carry ammo in stock" kind of problem. :(

https://d.gr-assets.com/hostedimages/1429297964ra/14567250.gif

.45 PDX-1 was like hen's teeth around here last year.


It won't be a statistically valid sample size, but the next time I can get JDM to come over to my house to assist me (hopefully within the next couple of weeks) I'll cycle 10 rounds each of P9HST3 (http://www.ammunitiondepot.com/Federal-Premium-Tactical-HST-9mm-124-Grain-P-Ammo-p/p9hst3.htm) and AE9DP (http://www.ammunitiondepot.com/Federal-American-Eagle-9MM-115-Grain-FMJ-p/ae9dp.htm) (since that's what I have on hand) 10-12 times through as many different 9mm pistols as I can reasonably (and easily) gain access to and report my results here. I'll measure the OAL before I start and then after each chambering. Each pistol will get it's own set of rounds.

I'll have to call in some favors, but I should be able to get access to a G17, a G19, a G43, a P30, a P2000sk, a VP9, a P228, a P320, a PPS, a 92, and a SD9VE, so this shouldn't "cost" me more than a couple boxes of each ammo.

I can test a few flavors of .45...and exactly one kind of .40. Like you said, though, not sure how much we'll gain from small batch tests.

[JDM]

It won't be a statistically valid sample size, but the next time I can get JDM to come over to my house to assist me (hopefully within the next couple of weeks) I'll cycle 10 rounds each of P9HST3 (http://www.ammunitiondepot.com/Federal-Premium-Tactical-HST-9mm-124-Grain-P-Ammo-p/p9hst3.htm) and AE9DP (http://www.ammunitiondepot.com/Federal-American-Eagle-9MM-115-Grain-FMJ-p/ae9dp.htm) (since that's what I have on hand) 10-12 times through as many different 9mm pistols as I can reasonably (and easily) gain access to and report my results here. I'll measure the OAL before I start and then after each chambering. Each pistol will get it's own set of rounds.

I'll have to call in some favors, but I should be able to get access to a G17, a G19, a G43, a P30, a P2000sk, a VP9, a P228, a P320, a PPS, a 92, and a SD9VE, so this shouldn't "cost" me more than a couple boxes of each ammo.

Excellent!

[HCM]

I'm
I'm not questioning the guy's bonafides, nor am I suggesting every post has to have a thesis attached. I'm asking if he has relevant data to back it up, and if anyone has tested a rechambering at 5 times, 10 times, 20 times, etc. and seen where a statistical difference is noted. I get this may not be of any interest to some. It is of interest to me. The forum would also be boring if we didn't ask questions or try to gain more information on things that interest us. I'm not attacking Doc, nor dismissing him. I want to know what he bases his opinion on, particularly with such a strong statement. Particularly since we've seen no issues with pistol ammo being rechambered a modest number of times, so it is counter to what I've observed over the years.

It's a $9/month problem for you. I can introduce you to about 1600 guys who the issue is not money, but policy, when it comes to replacing ammo. Having some firm data on the topic would be really really helpful if the policy is in error, especially as we are encouraged to dry fire between range sessions. I can also tell you most aren't going to fork over the money for a practice only pistol, their duty gun is their one handgun.

Out of curiosity, how often do yall qualify? And how many rounds is your qual course ?

Regarding dry fire, what is your firearms staff putting out regarding dry fire safety procedures and what are they recommending as a safe backstop?

Here in central Texas basements are uncommon in residential structures we have been recommending our officers put their body armor on a hanger and use it as a safe backstop for dry fire, just in case. Our rationale is, yes it sucks writing a dear chief memo to replace a set of body armor that took an " Opsie" round but it sucks a whole lot less then a criminal and internal affairs investigation because you let around go into your house or neighbors house, especially one that hurt or killed somebody.

We also emphasize unloading the weapon and leaving the ammo in a different room than the one used to conduct dry fire. We had an officer who came back after long term military leave. He was dry firing and practicing his grip and draw in his garage. He decided to put a loaded magazine into the gun for weight because he said the gun felt too light empty. Somehow that turned into a round in the chamber which was then fired into his own house while his wife and kids were home. Luckily no one was injured but I would rather issue the guy a new vest than see him hurt or kill his family.

[Pup town]

I'm

Out of curiosity, how often do yall qualify? And how many rounds is your qual course ?

Regarding dry fire, what is your firearms staff putting out regarding dry fire safety procedures and what are they recommending as a safe backstop?

Here in central Texas basements are uncommon in residential structures we have been recommending our officers put their body armor on a hanger and use it as a safe backstop for dry fire, just in case. Our rationale is, yes it sucks writing a dear chief memo to replace a set of body armor that took an " Opsie" round but it sucks a whole lot less then a criminal and internal affairs investigation because you let around go into your house or neighbors house, especially one that hurt or killed somebody.

We also emphasize unloading the weapon and leaving the ammo in a different room than the one used to conduct dry fire. We had an officer who came back after long term military leave. He was dry firing and practicing his grip and draw in his garage. He decided to put a loaded magazine into the gun for weight because he said the gun felt too light empty. Somehow that turned into a round in the chamber which was then fired into his own house while his wife and kids were home. Luckily no one was injured but I would rather issue the guy a new vest than see him hurt or kill his family.


I'm not a anal guy (as attested by the fact that I will rechamber a round in my carry weapon) but I do meticulously remove all ammo from the room where I'm dry firing, announce out loud to no one "I am about to dry fire" and when I'm done I say out loud "I've concluded dry firing" and then I reload. This may sound dumb but the deliberate process supposedly will help prevent me from thinking "you know, I've got time for one more sight picture" when I've forgotten that I've reloaded and BOOM!

But I also heard you'll never make GM if you've don't dry fire so much that you eventually make a mistake and shoot the house cat, which means either I need to dry fire more or I shouldn't be so careful.

[GRV]

Any thoughts on whether it's better to load by:
1) racking the slide (full force), or
2) dropping the slide from slide lock via the slide-stop lever (a la a slide-lock reload)?


I think everyone here is well aware of the severity of the problem with ARs. The issue is, I think, people haven't been widely exposed to such horror stories with pistols, except for when the gun/ammo in question shows obvious setback after 1 or 2 chambers. Also, on most CCW pistols, SFA ones at the very least, the striker is not going to hit the primer at all on a chambering. So I think we're really conflating a lot of issues here and we'd do best by the general crowd (i.e. those without large first hand agency experience with this issue) if we better articulated the specific risks as they apply to the specific sorts of hardware the OP is concerned about.

As far as specific gun/ammo combinations influencing this risk goes, I was under the impression that Speer Gold Dot 124gr +P in Glock 17/19 pistols were pretty resilient to these failures. I have yet to hear a horror story about that combo, despite much searching and despite the popularity of that combo. First hand, I have yet to do a proper test, but I've found no visible setback, maybe no measurable setback, after single digit numbers of rechamberings. And yet, I can see definite visible differences in OAL between rounds side by side fresh out of the box.

If anyone has any data regarding that specific combo, I'd be very curious to hear about it.


Also, maybe we should be talking about the risk of the rest of the ammo, the stuff sitting still in the magazine for long periods of time. I've heard about deformation issues.

Is it at least safe to say that modern pistol carry ammo is okay sitting around in the factory box for long periods of time? Provided it isn't exposed to the elements?


Separately, dropping the slide on a loaded chamber regularly seems like a bad idea. Even in a not-1911, I don't think it's super healthy for the extractor. Also, you are probably doing a ton more rim damage that way. A rim failure, leading to FTE issues, worries me a heck of a lot more than a FTF, as the remedial action is a lot worse.

[Mr_White]

Regarding dry fire, what is your firearms staff putting out regarding dry fire safety procedures and what are they recommending as a safe backstop?

Speaking purely as an individual here:

A lot of people are satisfied with simply making sure the gun is unloaded and proceeding with dry fire. I think that works for the most part. Until you get the condition of the gun wrong, then it doesn't work. That's a problem with only one layer of safety. For me personally, I am absolutely loathe to dry practice without an actual safe direction that will absorb an ND were I to have one.

In writing the Drills of the Week, I felt the need to add the following to the end of each drill that asks for a participant to dry fire. If you find it useful, please use it. But it's not like any of this is new information.

---

Safety In Dry Fire

At bare minimum, verify gun is unloaded, have no live ammo anywhere in the dry practice area, and keep muzzle in a safe direction.

But there is more you can do to ensure safety in dry practice:

Robust Dry Practice Safety Principles and Procedure (the closer you follow this, the fewer opportunities you will have to ND)


Principles:

Allow no distractions – focus exclusively on the task at hand

Keep muzzle in a safe direction

Use correct trigger finger discipline

No live ammo in gun, on person, or in the dry practice area

Use dedicated dry practice targets that are put away until you consciously choose to begin dry practice, and taken down when you consciously end dry practice

Use dedicated dry practice magazines and dummy rounds/inert training cartridges that stay in the dry practice area (if you use any magazine or cartridges)


Procedure:

Unload gun in a location other than the dry practice area

Leave live ammo, and magazines with live ammo, completely outside the dry practice area

Enter the dry practice area

Verify gun is unloaded, that any magazines do not contain live ammo, and that any cartridges are inert/dummy cartridges

Consciously choose to begin dry practice

Put up dry practice targets

Do your dry practice

Take down dry practice targets and put them away

Consciously choose to end dry practice

Exit the dry practice area and do something unrelated for a few minutes

Return gun to location and condition of your choosing

[TGS]

Use dedicated dry practice magazines and dummy rounds/inert training cartridges that stay in the dry practice area (if you use any magazine or cartridges)


I don't use dummy rounds in dry-practice, so my solution has been to take two magazines and glue the baseplate to the mag body with no follower or spring. This way, it's actually incapable of feeding live ammo. I just use them for practicing reloading.

I had 5 HK P2000 10-round mags that I got for really cheap, and broke 2 before I realized the 10 rounders are not good for repeated drops on concrete. The idea came to me when I was thinking about what to do with the mags, and how it didn't make sense to replace the fragile 10 round baseplate locking assembly at a cost equal/exceeding what I bought the mags for.

[11B10]

I don't shoot .45 (except in Bullseye) so I'm unfamiliar with the cost, but according to the prices listed here:

http://www.sgammo.com/catalog/pistol-ammo-sale/45-auto-acp-ammo

It's still a difference of ~$0.30 per round between good JHP (P45HST1 and P45HST2) and the cheap .45 FMJ (Wolf), so it's still ~$9 a month. The difference between Wolf and HST is actually only $0.24 per round, so it's really closer to $7 per month for .45 ACP.

I reckon I wasn't very clear, Tom. I didn't mean cost, I meant the rechambering issues.

[nycnoob]

Heck yea. You can even put a little lube on the case to make it go in easier.

I know you were joking but I have been reading "Hatcher's Notebook" by Julian S. Hatcher, which is a really old and interesting book.
He has some stories about this practice literally blowing up rifles in WWI, yeah part of it was the heat treating of the recovers but part of the problem is that this is a truly bad idea.

[TGS]

I know you were joking but I have been reading "Hatcher's Notebook" by Julian S. Hatcher, which is a really old and interesting book.
He has some stories about this practice literally blowing up rifles in WWI, yeah part of it was the heat treating of the recovers but part of the problem is that this is a truly bad idea.

On the other end of the spectrum, there are guns that necessitate lubed ammo to function properly.

[GJM]

It won't be a statistically valid sample size, but the next time I can get JDM to come over to my house to assist me (hopefully within the next couple of weeks) I'll cycle 10 rounds each of P9HST3 (http://www.ammunitiondepot.com/Federal-Premium-Tactical-HST-9mm-124-Grain-P-Ammo-p/p9hst3.htm) and AE9DP (http://www.ammunitiondepot.com/Federal-American-Eagle-9MM-115-Grain-FMJ-p/ae9dp.htm) (since that's what I have on hand) 10-12 times through as many different 9mm pistols as I can reasonably (and easily) gain access to and report my results here. I'll measure the OAL before I start and then after each chambering. Each pistol will get it's own set of rounds.

I'll have to call in some favors, but I should be able to get access to a G17, a G19, a G43, a P30, a P2000sk, a VP9, a P228, a P320, a PPS, a 92, and a SD9VE, so this shouldn't "cost" me more than a couple boxes of each ammo.


Excellent!

Tom, thanks for taking this on. Mr_White and I, just a few hours ago, were discussing how to do such a test. Once it got to a bunch of measuring, and hence math, I became less enthusiastic about the project.

[nycnoob]

On the other end of the spectrum, there are guns that necessitate lubed ammo to function properly.

Here I pass on the one gun smithy type thing that I know, and I already find its not universally true!

oh well.

About the Primer Taps when an AR15 chambers.

I was wondering if there was an easy fix for it? I understand that this does not happen in pistols because the firing pin is held in place by a spring. It can not be that easy to fix the firing pin of the AR (or perhaps it is not desireable to fix) or some smarter guy than me would have already added a firing pin spring to the rifle. Can anyone explain this to me so that even a New Yorker could understand?

[Lomshek]

Any thoughts on whether it's better to load by:
1) racking the slide (full force), or
2) dropping the slide from slide lock via the slide-stop lever (a la a slide-lock reload)?

If the slide is locked back I use the slide release lever. If the slide is forward I rack the slide.

If that makes a difference in accuracy or durability I've never seen it in the hundreds of rounds I fire a month (LOL).

[BehindBlueI's]

I'm

Out of curiosity, how often do yall qualify? And how many rounds is your qual course ?

Regarding dry fire, what is your firearms staff putting out regarding dry fire safety procedures and what are they recommending as a safe backstop?


It depends. Some years we do (2) 8 hour range days. Some years we do (1) 8 hour day and (2) 4 hour days or something like that. USUALLY it's twice a year, though. If you are rifle qualified, you go one or two more times a year. Every time you go you qual.

Rifle rounds get cycled every time the rifle is brought out of the car on a run and then put away on a run. In my current position, that's nearly never. I think I've gotten it out once this year and put a round in. On the street and in an area with a lot of in-progress hinky stuff, that can be a lot of cycling, though.

As for how many rounds for the actual qual...I don't recall. 30-ish, I think. They changed it fairly recently and I just load what they tell me and then it falls out of my head. I know its 15 for backup guns, though.

They also recommend the vest as a backdrop. I also use a wall that has a stone wall on the other side of the dry wall and a stack of books. Oh, and visual and physical inspection of the mag well and chamber, plus no live ammo in the room, etc. Technically I violate the no live ammo in the room, but it's in a safe, so I figure that's close enough.

[Chuck Haggard]

FWIW, I've seen a ton of 124gr +P Gold Dot rounds with set-back, or the bullets coming lose and out of the case. from being chambered too many times. This would be with 3rd gen S&Ws and Glocks

[breakingtime91]

FWIW, I've seen a ton of 124gr +P Gold Dot rounds with set-back, or the bullets coming lose and out of the case. from being chambered too many times. This would be with 3rd gen S&Ws and Glocks

do HST fare better?

[CS Tactical]

do HST fare better?

Probably not, I've had setback on my 124gr and 147gr HST.

[Chuck Haggard]

do HST fare better?

No idea, haven't seen enough of them used. I mentioned that because that loading came up earlier in the thread.

[taadski]

do HST fare better?


Nope.

[HCM]

What's old is new again. Be glad you don't need to rotate your carry loads daily ....


Wild Bill Hickock's daily shoot and clean routine is well documented from several different sources. At least two different writer's actually got to watch Hickock's daily weapons routine.

Hickok rented a cabin on the edge of Dodge City, and every day when he got up, (around noon) he would either go out for target practice, or he'd shoot one gun empty out the door, then meticulously clean ,lube, and reload, then do the other gun.
Powder charges were carefully weighed, each bullet and cap was individually inspected, and the guns were carefully inspected.

In either case, the guns got cleaned every day.

When asked about the tiresome routine, Hickok said "When I draw my pistols, I have to be SURE".

It was a common occurrence for a pistol to misfire in those days - early cartridge guns / rounds had misfire rates as high as 20%.

[xmanhockey7]

I understand the struggle. I fixed it by getting a SIRT pistol. Certainly wasn't the main reason I got it, but it's definitely a plus. I dry fire a lot more and am seeing improvements.

[GRV]

FWIW, I've seen a ton of 124gr +P Gold Dot rounds with set-back, or the bullets coming lose and out of the case. from being chambered too many times. This would be with 3rd gen S&Ws and Glocks

Thanks for the data!

[GRV]

I understand the struggle. I fixed it by getting a SIRT pistol. Certainly wasn't the main reason I got it, but it's definitely a plus. I dry fire a lot more and am seeing improvements.

I went the same way. The SIRT is good...but it's really not the same. I wish I could get my hands on a Gen4 G17R (do they even make a Gen4?), even though I know the trigger and especially reset won't be the same, based off the Gen3 I tried.

Honestly, lately, I've thought that a plain old Rings Blue Gun may be a better solo dryfire practice tool than the SIRT, as crazy as that sounds.

[JAD]

I picked up a Rings recently and have already used it several times to work on things like in-car draws, seated draws, and holster options. I think they're very useful.

[11B10]

Sorry, I really wouldn't know as I'm not much of a .45 shooter.

Are there any .45 shooters who can answer my question?

[John Hearne]

Are there any .45 shooters who can answer my question?

Just my opinion but my take is that bullet setback with quality ammo in a 45 is less of an issue than 40. The 40 case is so "full" that a little setback can have huge effects. With modern powders, there is a lot of room in a 45 case.

This does not eliminate the concerns with primer degradation that have already been discussed.

I would mark the rim with Sharpie and after four times, eliminate the round from self-defense carry.

Can't emphasize enough that I would only chamber a 5.56 once. I've seen bullet setback from high quality ammunition with a good cannelure. And that "kiss" of the firing pin on the primer is "just asking for it."

[John Hearne]

Let's discuss a reasonable informal test protocol that would have enough validity to be useful. I'm thinking:

Take two boxes of 50 from the same lot. Mix and divide the ammunition into five, twenty round piles. Measure average OAL for each batch, maybe just measure 5/20 rounds.

Load magazine and hand cycle each batch of 10 rounds through the gun X number of times. I'm thinking 250, 200, 150, 100, 50 times (250-50). After all of cycling, measure 5 rounds from each group for average COAL.

Attempt to fire rounds noting any failures.

In a perfect world, the sample size would be bigger than 20. One round failing to fire out of 20 is a 5% failure which is not enough resolution but this base measure is easily obtainable. Should be enough for at least for the first round of testing. If you're obsessed, repeat with a closer number of cycle times, say 100, 80, 60, 40, 20 or whatever blows your skirt.

Besides sample size, I'm also worried about gun. I'm thinking striker fired since they deliver a slightly lesser blow to the primer. If it goes off in a striker fired gun, it should go off in a hammer fired gun.

If you got real froggy, you could chrono every batch and see if you can detect primer degradation by erratic muzzle velocites, possibly an increase in standard deviation of velocity.

Thoughts? Volunteers?

[Dropkick]

Thoughts?

I think someone should be a control sample with a HiPoint and WWB. ;)

[Chuck Haggard]

You'd need a larger ammo sample. I have seen one lot of the same ammo be very resistant to set-back, then the next lot start setting back after far fewer cycles.

[Lomshek]

Let's discuss a reasonable informal test protocol that would have enough validity to be useful. I'm thinking:

Take two boxes of 50 from the same lot. Mix and divide the ammunition into five, twenty round piles. Measure average OAL for each batch, maybe just measure 5/20 rounds.

Load magazine and hand cycle each batch of 10 rounds through the gun X number of times. I'm thinking 250, 200, 150, 100, 50 times (250-50). After all of cycling, measure 5 rounds from each group for average COAL.

Attempt to fire rounds noting any failures.

In a perfect world, the sample size would be bigger than 20. One round failing to fire out of 20 is a 5% failure which is not enough resolution but this base measure is easily obtainable. Should be enough for at least for the first round of testing. If you're obsessed, repeat with a closer number of cycle times, say 100, 80, 60, 40, 20 or whatever blows your skirt.

Besides sample size, I'm also worried about gun. I'm thinking striker fired since they deliver a slightly lesser blow to the primer. If it goes off in a striker fired gun, it should go off in a hammer fired gun.

If you got real froggy, you could chrono every batch and see if you can detect primer degradation by erratic muzzle velocites, possibly an increase in standard deviation of velocity.

Thoughts? Volunteers?

It'd be interesting for the sake of science and if someone wants to do it I'll read their post but my mind's made up that it's cheap insurance to not keep recycling rounds into the chamber.

Too many variables of different guns, ammo and lots of ammo (manufacturers lots not bunches) to make a 100% conclusion. A Glock 19 will have a different feed angle than a Beretta 92 which will have a different extractor "grab" than a CZ. Don't even get started on one gun having an extra power recoil spring while another has an extra power magazine spring (forget about 1911 magazine variables). All of that and more will affect how roughly a round is "handled" by cycling the gun.

[RJ]

It depends. Some years we do (2) 8 hour range days. Some years we do (1) 8 hour day and (2) 4 hour days or something like that. USUALLY it's twice a year, though. If you are rifle qualified, you go one or two more times a year. Every time you go you qual.

Rifle rounds get cycled every time the rifle is brought out of the car on a run and then put away on a run. In my current position, that's nearly never. I think I've gotten it out once this year and put a round in. On the street and in an area with a lot of in-progress hinky stuff, that can be a lot of cycling, though.

As for how many rounds for the actual qual...I don't recall. 30-ish, I think. They changed it fairly recently and I just load what they tell me and then it falls out of my head. I know its 15 for backup guns, though.

They also recommend the vest as a backdrop. I also use a wall that has a stone wall on the other side of the dry wall and a stack of books. Oh, and visual and physical inspection of the mag well and chamber, plus no live ammo in the room, etc. Technically I violate the no live ammo in the room, but it's in a safe, so I figure that's close enough.

I wanted to leverage BBL's post to ask a dry fire question.

So, I'm not a LEO, so I don't have a vest or plate. I live in a dense area, so there aren't a lot of 'safe' directions.

Do y'all have any suggestions or best practices for safe dry firing backstops for urban dwellers?


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[Chuck Haggard]

Lots of options in the "backpack plates" area.

This one is on sale for $45, a 10x12" level II plate;
http://www.bulletproofme.com/Body_Armor_Complete_Products_LIST.shtml#Pack

Not a huge target, but for dry fire a guy can stand close to the target, and tape small targets to the plate.

[scw2]

Do y'all have any suggestions or best practices for safe dry firing backstops for urban dwellers?
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1 or more 5 gallon buckets filled with sand may would be a cheap and easy to implement option. Downside I guess would be the cleanup if you ever spilled it or had an AD.

[BehindBlueI's]

I wanted to leverage BBL's post to ask a dry fire question.

So, I'm not a LEO, so I don't have a vest or plate. I live in a dense area, so there aren't a lot of 'safe' directions.

Do y'all have any suggestions or best practices for safe dry firing backstops for urban dwellers?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Phone books, bags of potting soil. Something that will take a bullet and also absorb shrapnel, avoid ricochet.

[Cecil Burch]

I think he just puts the tip in. Less rim damage that way.

No wonder you and Craig are friends........

[RJ]

^^^ Thanks all for the Dry Fire suggestions. Appreciated.

I realized I have a masonry wall on the utility room. I think I can get permission to mount a layer of 2x6 on the wall from SWMBO, then I can have a dedicated ammo free dry fire area.

Ok, cool, thanks to the OP for allowing me to ask the question, I'll let the thread drift back on topic of setback etc.


...and Tom, no, you are right, not many basements here in FL; if you have a basement here, it comes with a pool in it *rimshot* :cool:

[RJ]

I think someone should be a control sample with a HiPoint and WWB. ;)

If someone wants to define a test protocol*, I can volunteer a VP9 and 115 Blazer FMJ and Speer GD 124.

*For example:

10 rounds, caliper OAL and compute average.

Load mag, cycle rounds through 5, 10, 20 times, calipering OAL Average after each cycle increment.

Or something like this...

Thinking is that we could do a 'group' crowd source experiment, and as long as the test protocol was consistent, the results could be tabulated, so as to give a sense of trends of the risk of set back?

[BehindBlueI's]

Let's discuss a reasonable informal test protocol that would have enough validity to be useful. I'm thinking:

Take two boxes of 50 from the same lot. Mix and divide the ammunition into five, twenty round piles. Measure average OAL for each batch, maybe just measure 5/20 rounds.

Load magazine and hand cycle each batch of 10 rounds through the gun X number of times. I'm thinking 250, 200, 150, 100, 50 times (250-50). After all of cycling, measure 5 rounds from each group for average COAL.

Attempt to fire rounds noting any failures.

In a perfect world, the sample size would be bigger than 20. One round failing to fire out of 20 is a 5% failure which is not enough resolution but this base measure is easily obtainable. Should be enough for at least for the first round of testing. If you're obsessed, repeat with a closer number of cycle times, say 100, 80, 60, 40, 20 or whatever blows your skirt.

Besides sample size, I'm also worried about gun. I'm thinking striker fired since they deliver a slightly lesser blow to the primer. If it goes off in a striker fired gun, it should go off in a hammer fired gun.

If you got real froggy, you could chrono every batch and see if you can detect primer degradation by erratic muzzle velocites, possibly an increase in standard deviation of velocity.

Thoughts? Volunteers?

Couldn't you just do the 250 first, and if they all measure ok and they all go bang, call it a day? After all, that would include all of the lesser numbers. If 250 didn't work out, then try 200, and work your way down?

[Mr_White]

I have seen one lot of the same ammo be very resistant to set-back, then the next lot start setting back after far fewer cycles.

This right here.

I'm sure I haven't seen as much as Chuck has, but I think I've seen this too.

All the 9mm Gold Dot (124gr + P and standard pressure) I've personally used has been great. No setback, even when I was less careful about not rechambering rounds over and over. No issues at all.

But just in the last couple of weeks, two of the people I know and train with out here have had 124 grain standard pressure Gold Dot (pretty sure from the same lot too) literally come apart when they unloaded their guns. Empty casing came out, bullet separate from that, powder spilled inside the gun. At least one of those guys, upon inspecting further, found rounds in his carry magazines where the bullet could be twisted by hand. Everyone makes a bad product now and then, I guess. Speer Gold Dot, and especially the 124 grain in standard pressure or + P, is still at the top of my list, but dang that's skeery.

[RJ]

But just in the last couple of weeks, two of the people I know and train with out here have had 124 grain standard pressure Gold Dot (pretty sure from the same lot too) literally come apart when they unloaded their guns. Empty casing came out, bullet separate from that, powder spilled inside the gun. At least one of those guys, upon inspecting further, found rounds in his carry magazines where the bullet could be twisted by hand. Everyone makes a bad product now and then, I guess. Speer Gold Dot, and especially the 124 grain in standard pressure or + P, is still at the top of my list, but dang that's skeery.

Holy crap! I have four 50 round boxes from sgammo of 124 standard pressure that I'm due to try out at the range...I'll have to go look at it right away.

Thanks for the tip.

[Mr_White]

Holy crap! I have four 50 round boxes from sgammo of 124 standard pressure that I'm due to try out at the range...I'll have to go look at it right away.

Thanks for the tip.

Inspecting your ammo is certainly a good idea. I personally consider what I reported to be a total anomaly. Speer Gold Dot is excellent ammo. The 9mm 124 grain varieties especially so, and I think is one of the most widely used (and thus tested in the field) loads available.

[psalms144.1]

Over the years I've seen lots of fishy ammo from big names - including primers seated backwards, completely cylindrical projectiles loaded in cases (no "nose" or Hollowpoint formed into the projectile), crimped brass, empty brass (squib), etc. The more you shoot, the higher the chances you'll encounter these special products. The lesson learned is you need to inspect all your ammo before thumbing it into a magazine.

To whit - Monday I FINALLY got a chance to get some "quality time" on the range. I needed to qualify with my MP5 and catch up on some handgun proficiency. I pulled a box of issued 9mm JHP out of the ammo can I use to haul stuff around in the trunk, and started loading Glock magazines. As I was doing so, one of the rounds was hard to seat in the magazine, and the spring felt "spongy" when I got it loaded. I stopped, looked at the round, thumbed it loose, and sure as a bear poops in the woods, it was a .40 S&W JHP round. I checked the rest of that box, and found out that one of my squad mates must have loaded their "left over" 40 from an earlier range date into my 9mm box (I'm currently the only agent in my squad shooting 9mm). There were nine rounds of 40 in that box, which I believed to be a full box, because there was 9mm JHP on both ends of the tray, just with 40 stuck in the middle. I'd love to know where those nine 9mm JHP rounds went...

While I was there, I fired up all my "extra" JHP magazines (keep several in my work car, back pack, etc) and, after cleaning them at home, was reloading them. When I opened another box of JHP, one round was very obviously shorter OAL than the rest. I pulled it out (fresh round in a freshly opened box of ammo, never seated in a mag), and it measured almost 1/8" shorter in OAL than the rest of the ammo in the box. Into the trash with that one!

[BehindBlueI's]

This right here.

I'm sure I haven't seen as much as Chuck has, but I think I've seen this too.

All the 9mm Gold Dot (124gr + P and standard pressure) I've personally used has been great. No setback, even when I was less careful about not rechambering rounds over and over. No issues at all.

But just in the last couple of weeks, two of the people I know and train with out here have had 124 grain standard pressure Gold Dot (pretty sure from the same lot too) literally come apart when they unloaded their guns. Empty casing came out, bullet separate from that, powder spilled inside the gun. At least one of those guys, upon inspecting further, found rounds in his carry magazines where the bullet could be twisted by hand. Everyone makes a bad product now and then, I guess. Speer Gold Dot, and especially the 124 grain in standard pressure or + P, is still at the top of my list, but dang that's skeery.

So...what I hear you guys saying is 9mm sucks, magazine fed guns suck, and Glocks suck in particular.

...Right? ;)

[Mr_White]

So...what I hear you guys saying is 9mm sucks, magazine fed guns suck, and Glocks suck in particular.

...Right? ;)

Lol yep. I can see your powers of detection are well-honed from years on teh streetz, the way you can read between lines like that. ;)

[Skeeter]

This right here.

I'm sure I haven't seen as much as Chuck has, but I think I've seen this too.

All the 9mm Gold Dot (124gr + P and standard pressure) I've personally used has been great. No setback, even when I was less careful about not rechambering rounds over and over. No issues at all.

But just in the last couple of weeks, two of the people I know and train with out here have had 124 grain standard pressure Gold Dot (pretty sure from the same lot too) literally come apart when they unloaded their guns. Empty casing came out, bullet separate from that, powder spilled inside the gun. At least one of those guys, upon inspecting further, found rounds in his carry magazines where the bullet could be twisted by hand. Everyone makes a bad product now and then, I guess. Speer Gold Dot, and especially the 124 grain in standard pressure or + P, is still at the top of my list, but dang that's skeery.

Yep, at first it was surprise... Then it was oh crap I've re-chambered way too many times. I'm not thinking the ammo was defective. There's a side of me that would like to cycle ammo until a bullet moves or gets loose as a quick experiment, maybe later.

Since this, I purchased a second G19 to minimize the load and unload for dry practice and USPSA, plus having a backup. I'm also marking and measuring the round that's chambered, shooting that round often, and riding the slide to feed the first round slowly (then checking it's at full battery). Never re-chambering a round is obviously the best method, and I may go there.

[Mr_White]

Yep, at first it was surprise... Then it was oh crap I've re-chambered way too many times. I'm not thinking the ammo was defective. There's a side of me that would like to cycle ammo until a bullet moves or gets loose as a quick experiment, maybe later.

I don't know, I kind of think it's that lot of ammo. I'd believe rechambering did it maybe if it was just you and it was a cartridge you knew you had chambered a number of times. Though what I would really expect to see is setback, not having the bullet spontaneously pulled - which makes me think maybe it was a combo of overly long OAL so the rifling grabbed the bullet a little, plus insufficient crimp. Maybe. Or maybe weak crimp allowed the bullet to jump forward into the rifling when the round was chambered - total speculation on my part there, no idea if that's even possible. But then it happened to the other person too, and while I don't know if he had rechambered the first round it happened with, he did find several others in his carry magazines where the bullet was spinnable in the casing with hand pressure. I suppose maybe he had chambered all of them a bunch, but I doubt it.


Since this, I purchased a second G19 to minimize the load and unload for dry practice and USPSA, plus having a backup. I'm also marking and measuring the round that's chambered, shooting that round often, and riding the slide to feed the first round slowly (then checking it's at full battery). Never re-chambering a round is obviously the best method, and I may go there.

Those are all good ideas, but I'm not on board with the bolded part, for the same reasons SLG mentioned upthread. The lockup of the action is not the same when a round is hand-cycled, especially slowly, and that can affect POI and make the first shot hit differently than subsequent shots. That does actually make me question whether chamber checking might necessarily do the same thing...

[Skeeter]

Those are all good ideas, but I'm not on board with the bolded part, for the same reasons SLG mentioned upthread. The lockup of the action is not the same when a round is hand-cycled, especially slowly, and that can affect POI and make the first shot hit differently than subsequent shots. That does actually make me question whether chamber checking might necessarily do the same thing...

Good point -- Thinking that if it looked and felt at full battery it was OK, but there probably is a difference in lock-up. Less affect if the weapon is clean?

Chamber check is one of those things engrained from my past, bet you remembered I did it last week before one of the strings.

[Mr_White]

Good point -- Thinking that if it looked and felt at full battery it was OK, but there probably is a difference in lock-up. Less affect if the weapon is clean?

Chamber check is one of those things engrained from my past, bet you remembered I did it last week before one of the strings.

I was taught to chamber check long enough ago that it has stuck with me and I do it...but this discussion really does have me wondering if it does the same thing as limp-racking the round in. Don't know, and I'm curious if anyone does.

[LSP552]

Most folks who have seen an institutional volume of ammo have seen issues from every brand. I have seen primers loaded upside down and side ways, case mounts bent during bullet seating, and bullets not properly crimped. I visibly check all self defense ammo by looking at the primer and running my finger across the case to make sure the primer is seated correctly. I also make sure the bullet is seated correctly in the case and that there apparent case defects.

[Cool Breeze]

For those that have copies of their carry gun for training...at what round count do you deem it reliable and focus solely on the training gun for all of your shooting?

[Cincinnatus]

For those that have copies of their carry gun for training...at what round count do you deem it reliable and focus solely on the training gun for all of your shooting?

After it passes the 2000 round challenge.

[Mr_White]

For those that have copies of their carry gun for training...at what round count do you deem it reliable and focus solely on the training gun for all of your shooting?

Hmmmm, I think I shot a few hundred rounds of ball ammo and about two hundred rounds of Gold Dot and called it good. I changed a couple of parts at one point and retested. I also periodically shoot some carry ammo through it to reaffirm POA/POI. So by now it's probably had ~1000 or 1500 rounds through it, including several hundred rounds of Gold Dot. I'm partly influenced (right or wrong) by several of my 9mm Glocks being similarly tested with carry ammo, and the raging megahuge number of LE 9mm Glocks shooting 124 grain Gold Dot that are out there.

[Trooper224]

500-600 rounds on the carry gun is about where I call it good. It then gets fired only during qualification etc. I'm trying out a new gun for off duty carry and the lack of a spare is irritating me with the loading/unloading thing.

[LSP552]

500-600 rounds on the carry gun is about where I call it good. It then gets fired only during qualification etc. I'm trying out a new gun for off duty carry and the lack of a spare is irritating me with the loading/unloading thing.

If you don't mind me asking, are you sticking with the Beretta or flirting with something else? I know it ain't a J-frame. :D

[11B10]

Dang! This thread is a prime example of why I "lurk" here. I have read - and re-read these posts - and I'm still getting stuff from them! Thanks especially to John Hearne for directly answering my question. I may someday work up the nerve to actually post something I think is helpful! Seriously - thanks to all of you - pf is the best.

[Tamara]

For those that have copies of their carry gun for training...at what round count do you deem it reliable and focus solely on the training gun for all of your shooting?

My actual carry gun gets used for classes and matches. I use the backup for dry-fire and range practice.

[Trooper224]

If you don't mind me asking, are you sticking with the Beretta or flirting with something else? I know it ain't a J-frame. :D

Of course not, it's two J-frames. :)

I replaced my beloved 1911 with the Beretta because of arthrits. Now, almost two years later, my back issues are becoming severe enough that I've had to admit it's tme to carry a plastic fantastic off duty. That's a shame because the 92 has really grown on me. I turned 50 last week and I don't recommend it! For about a month now I've been working with a 5" Walther PPQ. As soon as it completes the 2K challenge I'll post some observations.

[LSP552]

Of course not, it's two J-frames. :)

I replaced my beloved 1911 with the Beretta because of arthritis. Now, almost two years later, my back issues are becoming severe enough that I've had to admit it's tme to carry a plastic fantastic off duty. That's a shame because the 92 has really grown on me. I turned 50 last week and I don't recommend it! For about a month now I've been working with a 5" Walther PPQ. As soon as it completes the 2K challenge I'll post some observations.

Thanks 224, appreciate the info. I'm suffering arthritis in my strong hand and trigger finger that impacts my training with TDA SIGs. I've had to reduce the DA dry fire to shorter periods or suffer the consequences. At some point, I will likely be back in the Glock world or maybe a P320. Getting old sucks, but it does beat the alternative. Looking forward to your thoughts about the PPQ.

[MGW]

Of course not, it's two J-frames. :)

I replaced my beloved 1911 with the Beretta because of arthrits. Now, almost two years later, my back issues are becoming severe enough that I've had to admit it's tme to carry a plastic fantastic off duty. That's a shame because the 92 has really grown on me. I turned 50 last week and I don't recommend it! For about a month now I've been working with a 5" Walther PPQ. As soon as it completes the 2K challenge I'll post some observations.

If you don't mind me asking where are you carrying? I'm a few years behind you and don't sit in a car 8 hours a day. Strong side IWB kills my back though.

[Trooper224]

If you don't mind me asking where are you carrying? I'm a few years behind you and don't sit in a car 8 hours a day. Strong side IWB kills my back though.

I've carried predominantly strong side IWB for the last quarter century. Appendix doesn't work for me and I've always preferred to carry my weapon in the same place both on and off duty, whenever possible. Over the last month I have achieved a large measure of relief by switching to the plastic fantastic. I was honestly quite surprised at that. I knew it would make a difference but never imagined it would be so huge.

[Trooper224]

Looking forward to your thoughts about the PPQ.

It's impressing me. I never thought I'd say that about a glorified squirt gun. :)

[John Hearne]

I've carried predominantly strong side IWB for the last quarter century...I've always preferred to carry my weapon in the same place both on and off duty, whenever possible...I was honestly quite surprised at that. I knew it would make a difference but never imagined it would be so huge.

For a number of years, I've run strong side IWB for my summer time carry option. It worked fine and the only issues I've had with it was when I'd drive for multiple hours.

This year, I picked up a JM Custom Kydex OWB. What I've discovered is that the JM design offers 95% of the concealability of the IWB without any of the discomfort. In fact, I can't remember using my IWB once this summer - the concealment is that good. FWIW, I'm carrying a 5" P220 in Mississippi.

[RJ]

Dang! This thread is a prime example of why I "lurk" here. I have read - and re-read these posts - and I'm still getting stuff from them! Thanks especially to John Hearne for directly answering my question. I may someday work up the nerve to actually post something I think is helpful! Seriously - thanks to all of you - pf is the best.

Definitely, 100% agree.

On topic - Interested in ya'll thoughts on the PPQ.

The VP9, PPQ and P320C were on my short list in March for a new gun.

When I fondled a PPQ at my LGS, though, even I could tell the trigger felt super light. That, and a few stories circulating about inadvertent double taps, led to my coin flip between the P320C and the VP9.

Ok, me back to lurk mode. :)


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[nalesq]

Not sure where the joking starts and stops in the topic drifts in this discussion, but do NOT load your gun by dropping a round into the chamber and close the slide. I've seen enough broken extractors to learn why this is a bad thing.

One of my NCOs claimed that the Beretta M9 was specifically designed to allow one to manually chamber load a round sans magazine without causing any problems. Does anyone know if this is true?

[Dave J]

One of my NCOs claimed that the Beretta M9 was specifically designed to allow one to manually chamber load a round sans magazine without causing any problems. Does anyone know if this is true?

True.

ToddG posted in the past that the Beretta 92 extractor was designed with this in mind. I'm not aware of any other pistols where I'd consider it an acceptable practice.

[HCM]

One of my NCOs claimed that the Beretta M9 was specifically designed to allow one to manually chamber load a round sans magazine without causing any problems. Does anyone know if this is true?

Don't know if it was designed to do it but per the Beretta factory Armorers class in the late 1990's you can do it without damage in the 92/96 series. It is the only Semi service pistol I'm aware of where this is OK'ed by the factory.

[HCM]

Double tap

[Trooper224]

For a number of years, I've run strong side IWB for my summer time carry option. It worked fine and the only issues I've had with it was when I'd drive for multiple hours.

This year, I picked up a JM Custom Kydex OWB. What I've discovered is that the JM design offers 95% of the concealability of the IWB without any of the discomfort. In fact, I can't remember using my IWB once this summer - the concealment is that good. FWIW, I'm carrying a 5" P220 in Mississippi.

For me, the issue seems to be weight rather than position. The lack of an all metal gun hanging on my belt has made a dramatic difference, with the same carry position. I never really considered the weight of the pistol. I figured I carried thirty to forty pounds of gear on duty in my standard uniform, more in a SWAT capacity, so what did the weight of just a pistol matter? For years it didn't, apparently now it does.

[Beat Trash]

I'm a year ahead of you. I went looking for an OWB holster that actually concealed well a couple of years ago. I discovered JMCK and Tony's own design that I could order with a lower ride. This combined with his belt loop design conceals well, and I can carry it in comfort for extended periods while off duty.

But I also combine it with a light weight polymer pistol.

Yes, getting old is over rated. I think I'll just stop...

Trooper, I'll be interested to hear your final thoughts on the new gun.

[Trooper224]

Trooper, I'll be interested to hear your final thoughts on the new gun.

Our youngest son and his wife will be here on Sunday for the holidays. He's a serious shooter like his dad so I've been loading ammo every spare minute for the last week. By the time they head back to Norfolk after Xmas, I anticipate having Tod's 2K challenge completed as well as some firm opinions on the gun.

[Skeeter]

Don't know if it was designed to do it but per the Beretta factory Armorers class in the late 1990's you can do it without damage in the 92/96 series. It is the only Semi service pistol I'm aware of where this is OK'ed by the factory.

To clear a double-feed malfunction the slide closes on a case in the chamber. Never had a problem in malfunction drills. It's hard on the extractor, but I thought every pistol was designed with that function in mind -- maybe some better than others?

[SLG]

To clear a double-feed malfunction the slide closes on a case in the chamber. Never had a problem in malfunction drills. It's hard on the extractor, but I thought every pistol was designed with that function in mind -- maybe some better than others?

Guns with spring loaded extractors will handle having to close over a rim better than other designs. The problem is more than just extractor tension though. Some extractors will chip when subjected to this practice. It really is best avoided, unless you have no magazines or something.

Also, clearing a a double feed should not involve closing the slide on an already chambered round.

[Skeeter]

Guns with spring loaded extractors will handle having to close over a rim better than other designs. The problem is more than just extractor tension though. Some extractors will chip when subjected to this practice. It really is best avoided, unless you have no magazines or something.

Also, clearing a a double feed should not involve closing the slide on an already chambered round.

Check if I'm describing this correctly:

Spent casing still in chamber, the partially extracted casing sticks in the chamber and the extractor slips off, the slide cycles and a round is fed from the mag into the back of the spent casing in the chamber. Clear by locking the slide open, removing mag, cycle slide (repeatedly if necessary) to remove casing from the chamber, then re-load. Since there's a casing in the chamber, cycling the slide forces the extractor claw to move out against spring tension as it contacts the back of the casing, and then spring tension forces the claw into the rim to hopefully extract it when the slide is pulled rearward by hand.

The malfunction drill starts with a round or spent case placed in the chamber manually, then slowly close the slide to feed a round from the magazine into the round already in the chamber.

Coincidentally, it wasn't very long after doing this drill in one of Gabe's classes that I had it happen at a USPSA match. I believe the cause was too much dirt getting into the chamber via magazine dropped on the ground in conjunction with aluminum case ammo. The spent case expanded and stuck in the chamber after moving rearward enough to cycle the slide, and the extractor apparently slipped off the rim. The extractor was fine, never had a problem before, or since.

[Beat Trash]

Which JMCK OWB holster and cant are you guys using?

OWB (original, no number, just listed as OWB), 15 degree cant, low ride height. I own one for a M&P9c and for a Glock 19.

I also really like his single magazine OWB pouch.