Washington State Academy trying new approach: Guardians instead of Warriors

[cclaxton]

Washington State Police Academy adopts innovative approach to training, resulting in Guardians instead of Warriors.
http://kuow.org/post/washington-s-police-academy-shuns-warrior-attitude

Interesting that before they changed the philosophy they couldn't get applicants, now they have a waiting list.
Cody

[JM Campbell]

I still want warriors on my streets.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-N900A using Tapatalk

[jnc36rcpd]

The article doesn't say that the academy "couldn't get applicants" nor does it say there is a waiting list. It does mention the recession and that law enforcement agencies were not hiring. That would account for the lack of recruits at the police academy. I seriously doubt it has anything to do with warrior versus guardian.

I also have no doubt that the former soldier mentioned by the director was smart enough, regardless of his opinion on warrior/guardian, to tell the director exactly what she wanted him to say.

[LSP552]

It's no longer politically correct for police agencies to hire or train warriors. The officer friendly model works well, and I'm a big believer in treating folks as nice as they allow. But, you have to be able to flip the switch to medieval mode when necessary. Many of the officer friendly types just aren't comfortable with confrontation and violence, and neither are their administrations.

[Lon]

Lotsa truth to this scene:


http://youtu.be/nTh5JzRziHE

Knowing when it's time to not be nice is what's difficult to teach some new officers.

[PNWTO]

Interesting that before they changed the philosophy they couldn't get applicants, now they have a waiting list.
Cody

The WSP is fighting massive internal battles right now and experienced Troopers are either retiring or pulling a lateral. Every Trooper I know is fed up with their command, their pay, and their benefits; it has little to do with this approach.

Their is a now a waiting list because they need a shit ton of Troopers, so the guys who are looking for a career in LE are literally moving to WA. Other applicants are simply opportunists.

Oh, and they recently lowered their fitness and testing standards...

[JustOneGun]

First off, good police training includes respecting the constitution and peoples rights.

Second, I suspect what many of these young minds of mush think is that they are going to make a difference in some way to Ferguson or Baltimore. That sounds good until, "Asking them" and then, "Telling them" doesn't work. When it come to, "Making them", well here in lies the problem for many a young recruit. There is no democratic way to force someone into handcuffs that is willing to fight to stay out of them.

Many of the good people that believe they will change something that is more complex than they know will come away feeling lied to. Where the older versions of those recruits with unrealistic expectations end up can be frightening for them, the department and the public.

[Dagga Boy]

So is Guardian the new word for armed secretary? That used to be an insult to our useless cops.....now it seems to be the goal.

[Wayne Dobbs]

As I've been saying for a few years now: "Mediocrity is now the new excellence"

[Range1]

Yeah, a few years ago (3 or 4?) our academy commander thought we were teaching our officers and recruits to be too aggressive. We were told to drop any warrior reference and not emphasize fighting skills. Even removed the word combatives from the defensive tactics training. Too threatening for the general public don't you know. He was eventually replaced, actually promoted out. That brings to mind when I first came on the department in 1984. We had no shotgun racks in the cars. Had to wedge them under the seat or leave in trunk. Before I came on I was told they used to have upright racks in the front but had them removed because the public found them too threatening. Around here maybe it is just a case of "everything old is new again". Oh well just the musings of an old fart.

[cclaxton]

It seems to me that the public is expecting law enforcement to have multiple ways of dealing with the public...akin to multiple tools on your belt. In some cases they need a warrior/SWAT type of intervention when there is an active shooter/bomber. In other cases the public expects an approach that leads to a de-escalationary procedure that results in less injury, risk, and death. What's wrong with being versatile?
Cody

[pablo]

Rarely does a hiring binge work out well for an agency or taxpayers. Ultimately a lot of under qualified people get ramrodded through the system to make numbers. If an agencies goal is to avoid embarassing incidents and strained community relations, putting lots of inexperienced officers on the streets is the opposite of a smart move. On the back end, hiring binges lead to mass retirements and put a lot strain on pensions systems that tax payers end up footing the bill for.

Officers don't need to be arrogant pricks, but officers that lack a certain degree of moral superiority and act "elite" or "better" tend to be the ones that make questionable decisions.

Anyone that thinks that they can talk people into "appreciating" being stopped for a traffic violation, needs to get drug tested.

[HCM]

It's no longer politically correct for police agencies to hire or train warriors. The officer friendly model works well, and I'm a big believer in treating folks as nice as they allow. But, you have to be able to flip the switch to medieval mode when necessary. Many of the officer friendly types just aren't comfortable with confrontation and violence, and neither are their administrations.

LSP, I'm sure you are familiar with this material but for those who are not, Please see page 19 of the FBI study linked below regarding "Behavioral Descriptors of Officers Killed" and "Behavioral Descriptors of Officers Assaulted". The material is from the FBI's 1992 Killed In The Line of Duty, 1997 In The Line Of Fire, and 2006 Violent Encounters studies.


http://www.secondcalldefense.org/sites/default/files/pdfs/Violent-Encounters.pdf

[psalms144.1]

In my mind, a "Guardian" is a reactive, defensive-oriented profession. If that's what society wants, I think that is PRECISELY what LE should provide. Respond to calls at a speed which ensures the safety of the officer and all of the public, take a detailed, professional report on what happened, and return to duty.

When did "Warrior" become a bad title? Throughout history, Warriors have defended their society against threats, including taking the fight to the enemy when required. If you only train "Guardians," who is going to proactively target criminal activity?

[cclaxton]

In my mind, a "Guardian" is a reactive, defensive-oriented profession. If that's what society wants, I think that is PRECISELY what LE should provide. Respond to calls at a speed which ensures the safety of the officer and all of the public, take a detailed, professional report on what happened, and return to duty.

When did "Warrior" become a bad title? Throughout history, Warriors have defended their society against threats, including taking the fight to the enemy when required. If you only train "Guardians," who is going to proactively target criminal activity?
It doesn't have to be one or the other. What's wrong with being capable of doing both?
Cody

[Chuck Haggard]

It seems to me that the public is expecting law enforcement to have multiple ways of dealing with the public...akin to multiple tools on your belt. In some cases they need a warrior/SWAT type of intervention when there is an active shooter/bomber. In other cases the public expects an approach that leads to a de-escalationary procedure that results in less injury, risk, and death. What's wrong with being versatile?
Cody

What makes you think that a single person can't do both of those things?

[TSH]

It seems to me that the public is expecting law enforcement to have multiple ways of dealing with the public...akin to multiple tools on your belt. In some cases they need a warrior/SWAT type of intervention when there is an active shooter/bomber. In other cases the public expects an approach that leads to a de-escalationary procedure that results in less injury, risk, and death. What's wrong with being versatile?
Cody

I find it hard to believe anyone takes you seriously. I have to believe that, or I'd be disheartened at the thought I'm the only one that sees through your "Who, poor little ol' me?" schtick. Just about every post you make in the Law Enforcement sub-forum is designed to question the abilities or knowledge of people that have earned both through experience. You are not genuinely interested in good policing, you just want to be right. Otherwise you would have dropped the charade by now and moved on to something else.

I pray you get the sort of policing you want. Unfortunately, everyone around you will suffer from it, too. The sad thing is you will be the first one to whine about how ineffective the cops are.

[Ptrlcop]

De-emphasizing the hard skills is not how to get what Cody is talking about. It will only lead to more "fear biters".

But let's be honest and see that those pushing this agenda don't care. They simply want less capable police.

[LSP552]

It seems to me that the public is expecting law enforcement to have multiple ways of dealing with the public...akin to multiple tools on your belt. In some cases they need a warrior/SWAT type of intervention when there is an active shooter/bomber. In other cases the public expects an approach that leads to a de-escalationary procedure that results in less injury, risk, and death. What's wrong with being versatile?
Cody

Nothing. But, IME, it's easier to teach a level headed warrior about deescalation because you eliminate the fear biters* (Nyeti TM).

[LSP552]

LSP, I'm sure you are familiar with this material but for those who are not, Please see page 19 of the FBI study linked below regarding "Behavioral Descriptors of Officers Killed" and "Behavioral Descriptors of Officers Assaulted". The material is from the FBI's 1992 Killed In The Line of Duty, 1997 In The Line Of Fire, and 2006 Violent Encounters studies.


http://www.secondcalldefense.org/sites/default/files/pdfs/Violent-Encounters.pdf


Yep, very familiar. I just wish more chiefs, sheriffs and superintendents were.

[GardoneVT]

It seems to me that the public is expecting law enforcement to have multiple ways of dealing with the public...akin to multiple tools on your belt. In some cases they need a warrior/SWAT type of intervention when there is an active shooter/bomber. In other cases the public expects an approach that leads to a de-escalationary procedure that results in less injury, risk, and death. What's wrong with being versatile?
Cody

The problem is simple. The public is unwilling to spend the money required to train such quality people, nor is the same public willing to elect reasonable and spine-possesing government leaders who don't immediately toss an officer under the bus as soon as #BLM posts on Facebook. I read an Elmer Keith book once which mentioned being an officer of the law as not only a position of incredible trust, it was a role respected by society. Nowadays drug dealers are respected better then LEO in far too many places.

Pay mediocre rewards -including morale-and you'll get mediocre results.

[jnc36rcpd]

Cody, perhaps there was a page two of the article that I couldn't open. Does the missing page two offer insight into the performance of "guardians" after they complete the academy? I know the academy director and her staff love the program, but what are the results out in the real world?

[Hambo]

I find it hard to believe anyone takes you seriously. I have to believe that, or I'd be disheartened at the thought I'm the only one that sees through your "Who, poor little ol' me?" schtick.

You're not alone.

[Dagga Boy]

Nothing. But, IME, it's easier to teach a level headed warrior about deescalation because you eliminate the fear biters* (Nyeti TM).

First, I simply stole "fear biter" from the K9 side of the house. It is an undesirable quality in police K9's and those dogs are usually weeded out when this rears its head. Unfortunately, we don't do that with human cops who exhibit the same. Often they not only survive, but promote and end up being horrific supervisors as well.

"Behavioral Descriptors of Officers killed and Assaulted".....they are Cody's dream cops. They get themselves in trouble, they are dangerous to the public, and worse, they get other cops into escalated incidents and hurt. During William April's class at the Georgia Association of law Enforcement firearms instructors I brought up this exact point that every indicator of LEO's assaulted and killed are those attributes being pushed by the public. The idea that we send the "right" police for the right incident is TV fantasy. You get whoever shows up. Here is what I have found. The cops that train hard, are capable of doing aggressive proactive policing and rapidly escalating force as needed and owning encounters are the same folks that really have no issues doing the soft side. Most have nothing to prove and love getting a crook in the with sugar rather than hardwood. The are good at all facets of policing and training is the absolute key. Those proactive and aggressive cops LOVE studying law. It is a tool. They are usually far more educated on case law and proper application than the report takers. They go to court a lot because they are arresting real bad guys...thus they write better reports as they are being critiqued by prosecutors, defense attorney's and judges regularly! not just a sergeant reading Officer "I want to help people and love puppies" latest burglary report for the 17th burglary that occurred in his beat with no arrests. You essentially have the cop that is friendly and responsive and takes reports from the public with a smile, or the cop that takes those reports, is mad that it happened, finds taking those reports boring and goes out an arrests the scumbag felon burglarizing his area so he doesn't have to take those reports anymore. He can then go back to arresting local dope fiends before they burglarize stuff. Those same dope fiends that officer cookies and milk ignores because its a victimless crime and he feels bad for them.
Additionally, armed report takers are not likely to drive to your crisis at 100mph. They will get there in a manner consistent with safety and will drive around in circles till back up arrives. This is really good for staying out of trouble, never violating any policy, but does the person on the line to 911 zero good. It is good to avoid violent police encounters though because the violent folks are usually finished with their victim before the officers get there.
What is not needed is having cops reading books to kids, doing community feel good events, and other activities that reduce the view of officers as authority figures. There are civilians in LE agencies that can do this stuff.

Hey if the public wants Ponch and John, great. Some day they will be longing for Reed and Malloy and those kind of folks will be working over at the fire station.

[LSP972]

I find it hard to believe anyone takes you seriously. I have to believe that, or I'd be disheartened at the thought I'm the only one that sees through your "Who, poor little ol' me?" schtick. Just about every post you make in the Law Enforcement sub-forum is designed to question the abilities or knowledge of people that have earned both through experience. You are not genuinely interested in good policing, you just want to be right. Otherwise you would have dropped the charade by now and moved on to something else.

I pray you get the sort of policing you want. Unfortunately, everyone around you will suffer from it, too. The sad thing is you will be the first one to whine about how ineffective the cops are.

Well stated. You're not the only one. People like him are why I almost never get involved in these discussions. They have zero clue, because they have never lived it, and do not wish to be confused with facts and/or reality.

And your last sentence is 100% spot-on.

.

[LSP972]

Hey if the public wants Ponch and John, great. Some day they will be longing for Reed and Malloy and those kind of folks will be working over at the fire station.

And that about sums it up, sports fans. I'm glad I probably won't be around to see what this new "sensitive" approach actually yields… but I fear for my grandchildren.

.

[LSP552]

And that about sums it up, sports fans. I'm glad I probably won't be around to see what this new "sensitive" approach actually yields… but I fear for my grandchildren.

.

Simply look around HQ....

[SLG]

I try to stay out of these discussions because they are not productive. Plus, Nyeti gets to repeat himself everytime:-).

I do have to take offense at the cookies and milk though. When did cookies and milk become a bad thing? You dont have to be a kid to enjoy cookies and milk. Kind of like calling someone a weasel. Weasels are pretty cool animals.

I love cookies and milk. I just dont want cookies and milk showing up to any fight I'm in.

And, i refuse to do as Tam does and spell out the fact that she's funnin.

Eta...the article is so full of spin and conclusion ju mm ping, that you really cant take any of it at face value. Unless youre naive.

[Erik]

I love cookies and milk. I just dont want cookies and milk showing up to any fight I'm in.


I don't know. Might be one hell of a way to get inside an OODA loop.

[Chuck Haggard]

The biggest issue I have with this entire discussion at the national level is the complete and total cognitive dissonance displayed by the folks on the anti cop side, combined with the idea from both sides of the fence that any/all of this is an either/or thing.

Everybody wants Andy Griffith, until it's the scumbags in San Bernardino shooting up a Christmas party, then they want Robocop to show up and stop that shit immediately.

One can be both tactically astute, physically fit, ready willing and able to shoot a motherfucker in the face at the drop of a hat when said bad guy needs to be stopped right fucking now, AND one can pet puppies, hold babies, talk nice to people, take care of small kids and injured people, talk down crazy and/or angry people..... you can do both.

Being nice when it's called for is not necessarily "hug a thug", dropping the hammer on a bad guy that needs to be stopped does not make one an asshole. I have seen way too many people, and not just now, after Rodney Kind was rather difficult being a street cop as well, who yell loudly "Fuck the police!", but I've known way too many coppers over the years who don't get "fuck those assholes" isn't helping anything.


Oh, and I like cookies and milk.

[Dagga Boy]

We had a female Captain we used to call Capt. cookies and milk. She was the epitome of super friendly and emotionally concerned about everyone. She would tell stories of being a hard ass when she worked gangs.....and all the animals of her era that REALLY worked gangs would roll their eyes. Her idea of "working gangs" was building files and data bases off the intel brought in by the guys who were in the field. Truthfully, she was great to work for. She was the watch commander on by far the hardest shift of bad asses I ever worked on graveyard one year. She would organize pot lucks for us in briefing.....and then we went off and did the lord's work while she minded the house. She got the name Cookies and Milk because she would sit over cookies and milk with crime victims and take reports. She was one of those people I was blessed to have worked with as she was a kind woman who truely cared for her people, organized charity events, and was simply nice to be around. The key was having a couple of people like her, not an entire department full of them. She was also great inside the station.....you did not want her in the field. So......yes, we need a Cookies and Milk cop or two. When you get a majority of them, crime wins. She did good because she didn't ask what we were doing in the field. As long as nothing illegal was going on....and we were simply arresting evil doers, she was good. And we got to focus on true evil doers rather than little b.s. Because we had a crew of meat eaters who were hunting real bad guys. Nobody wanted to mess with normal people or lightweights. This is the result with confident well trained aggressive cops, contrary to popular belief and the media.

[Chuck Haggard]

I've noted throughout my career that the officers best able to quickly and decisively visit immediate and overwhelming violence on violent bad guys are the same people who least often have to pull that pin.

For the most part the bad guys can tell right away who is not fucking around.

I'm proud of the vast numbers of fights I avoided, and people I talked into cuffs, while having the ability to back up the nice talk as needed.

[cclaxton]

I find it hard to believe anyone takes you seriously. I have to believe that, or I'd be disheartened at the thought I'm the only one that sees through your "Who, poor little ol' me?" schtick. Just about every post you make in the Law Enforcement sub-forum is designed to question the abilities or knowledge of people that have earned both through experience. You are not genuinely interested in good policing, you just want to be right. Otherwise you would have dropped the charade by now and moved on to something else.

I pray you get the sort of policing you want. Unfortunately, everyone around you will suffer from it, too. The sad thing is you will be the first one to whine about how ineffective the cops are.
Please try to stick to discussing the issues instead of personal attacks. I am here to learn, as I hope you are. The way I learn is by asking questions and proposing solutions. Law enforcement is going through hard times right now, but locally and nationally. I am simply trying to ask questions that can stimulate a dialogue over how to use smarter policing, less risky policing (for citizens and police), how to educate the public about how to interact with police, how to maintain citizens' rights, how to provide the best possible outcome to enforcement for a given community. We live in a country where citizens get to say the kind of policing they want, and that can be good or bad. We don't live in a country where police get a blank check on how they choose to enforce the laws. That process is a negotiation between the elected officials, the general public, and law enforcement. We are citizens, not subjects.
I would appreciate focusing on the issues rather than the messenger.
Cody

[TSH]

Please try to stick to discussing the issues instead of personal attacks. I am here to learn, as I hope you are. The way I learn is by asking questions and proposing solutions. Law enforcement is going through hard times right now, but locally and nationally. I am simply trying to ask questions that can stimulate a dialogue over how to use smarter policing, less risky policing (for citizens and police), how to educate the public about how to interact with police, how to maintain citizens' rights, how to provide the best possible outcome to enforcement for a given community. We live in a country where citizens get to say the kind of policing they want, and that can be good or bad. We don't live in a country where police get a blank check on how they choose to enforce the laws. That process is a negotiation between the elected officials, the general public, and law enforcement. We are citizens, not subjects.
I would appreciate focusing on the issues rather than the messenger.
Cody

I may be a relative new comer here, but the sophomoric "please don't engage in personal attacks" thing isn't going to convince me you are genuinely interested in "a dialog", nor is it going to negate your documented history of arrogant posts designed to thinly veil your disdain for law enforcement. Let's be honest - your version of a dialog is you telling experienced members of the law enforcement community they don't know how to do their jobs, and when someone points out the flaws in your reasoning you immediately start with the "I only want the truth" game. I'll tell you what: why don't you just start out by telling us what you want to hear so we can all say it, and you can go back to being smug.

You have already seen experienced LEOs respond on this topic with the cold, hard facts of law enforcement - it is better to have a warrior you can slow down than have a coward you can't rely on. My sergeant phrases it as "I would rather pull the reins than kick you in the a**." True to form, you will ignore those posts because they don't support the internal "policing is broken" model in your head. This is the same model that forms the basis for every law enforcement question you ask. It is the reason you abandon these threads once people start to argue with you about your presumptions, and the reason you suddenly disappear when people start demanding cites for your outrageous claims.

By all means, though, play the victim. Just be aware that everyone responding to you here has heard the same nonsense from every person they have arrested. We can pick out the disingenuous fairly easily.

[PNWTO]

Please try to stick to discussing the issues instead of personal attacks. I am here to learn, as I hope you are. The way I learn is by asking questions and proposing solutions. Law enforcement is going through hard times right now, but locally and nationally. I am simply trying to ask questions that can stimulate a dialogue over how to use smarter policing, less risky policing (for citizens and police), how to educate the public about how to interact with police, how to maintain citizens' rights, how to provide the best possible outcome to enforcement for a given community. We live in a country where citizens get to say the kind of policing they want, and that can be good or bad. We don't live in a country where police get a blank check on how they choose to enforce the laws. That process is a negotiation between the elected officials, the general public, and law enforcement. We are citizens, not subjects.
I would appreciate focusing on the issues rather than the messenger.
Cody

See Cody, here is the problem:

The WSP is having a lot of internal issues right now so guys are jumping ship in record numbers. Opportunists who want a LE career are applying, more since the WSP lowered their standards, hence the waitlist for acady dates.

This article is spin and you further spun it to get a new chance to evangelize. Listen to the experienced LEOs here, not their chain-of-commands.

[LSP972]

Simply look around HQ....

Oh, I know. I wasn't going to get into that, but…


.

[SLG]

To respond to the "LE is broken" idea, it is broken. Truthfully, it was never completely right at any point in its history.

The part that is currently broken though, is not what most of the public realizes. The broken part is that we dont maintain, across the board standards for what matters. We throw away pt standards, shooting standards, decision making standards, and then we wonder why we have problems.

Theres more to it than just that, but what the other guys here have said is completely right. Better to pull on the reins than to use the whip. Most cops i have worked with are way more concerned about constitutional rights than their liberal critics are. The cops are the ones out there actually applying the constitution every day, not sitting back and whining about percieved wrongs from a 10 second slice of a dash cam. What we need as a society is to raise more warriors, not more whiners.

[41magfan]

I'm always a bit amused when folks with absolutely no life experiences relating to a particular problem opine that they have a solution to fix said problem.

[TAZ]

To respond to the "LE is broken" idea, it is broken. Truthfully, it was never completely right at any point in its history.

The part that is currently broken though, is not what most of the public realizes. The broken part is that we dont maintain, across the board standards for what matters. We throw away pt standards, shooting standards, decision making standards, and then we wonder why we have problems.

Theres more to it than just that, but what the other guys here have said is completely right. Better to pull on the reins than to use the whip. Most cops i have worked with are way more concerned about constitutional rights than their liberal critics are. The cops are the ones out there actually applying the constitution every day, not sitting back and whining about percieved wrongs from a 10 second slice of a dash cam. What we need as a society is to raise more warriors, not more whiners.

LE shouldn't take all the heat for the broken wheel syndrome we have. That broken wheel is made up of more than just cops.

WRT to the topic at hand. As a lowly "civilian" the person I want watching over the safety of my wife and child is the level headed warrior, not the cuckold Guardian type. A level headed warrior can help my wife change a tire, play hoops with my son and shoot a bad guy in the face with the same efficiency. The cuck will only be able to play ball and fix tires. When it comes time to throw down a temper tantrum doesn't count.

Unfortunately, level headed warriors take training and not a soul want me to spend any time and $$ doing that. They rather spend the money on FSA reward cards.

I don't want cops around because things are rosy. I want them around when shit is going sideways. Same reason why I carry a gun. It's not cause I like the extra weight around my waist.

[Shumba]

I'm always a bit amused when folks with absolutely no life experiences relating to a particular problem opine that they have a solution to fix said problem.

Amen.
Intellectual masturbation has replaced real life experience.
And of course, someone else is always at fault.
There is a financial cost to citizens for more police, but no one wants their taxes to go up.
In our little town this year: 21 shootings, 7 homicides. 50 sworn officers, so do the math per shift. And the town council does not want to hire three more, who are really needed. Virtually all violent crime is drug related.
Jail is full, courts are way behind on the backlog.
Makes me want to barf,
Shumba

[Wayne Dobbs]

Mr. Claxton,

I have no idea of what you do for a living, but I'd bet a chunk that I don't know how to do your job and wouldn't think of trying to tell you how to do it. Conversely, you don't know how to be a cop, except for what you've watched as TV/film drama (just about all of which is bullshit) or by listening to various hysterical media reports of what they call bad LE actions. Most of those reports are agenda driven actions to try and make the police look bad. I've taken folks that are anti-police or simply ignorant and run them through some decision making scenarios and they all "committed" murder or aggravated assault in their scenario testing, to a person. It was very enlightening to all when those folks showed their butts on what they didn't know.

You seem to have little to no idea how the job is done or what the challenges are of public opinion, peer expectations, inter-departmental politics, offender MOs, etc. are. A significant number of us here do and have stood in some Godawful, shitty and terrifying places and had to stand fast with our decisions and actions. It's a challenge that few really do well. It's an ugly mess at times to do a decent job and then you get second guessed literally for years for something you had a few (or less) seconds to assess and act. I heard it once that the public wants us as cops to protect them and make them feel safe from the evil people out there....they just don't want to see how we do that. It's true and it will never look pretty for us to kick some bad guy's ass or kill him on dinnertime TV. Get used to it and instead of being part of the problem, be part of the solution in your community.

[jnc36rcpd]

Clay, to avoid being accused of making personal attacks, I will take the high road and assume you did not read or perhaps have time to reply tomy responses.

You implied that the Washington State Criminal Justice Academy did not receive applicants when it was "warrior-based", if indeed it ever was. You suggested that they now have high numbers of applicants because they are now "guardian-based". The article itself states that agencies were not hiring due to economic shortcomings several years ago. Do you have any evidence that applications have increased due to the "guardian" model?

I also asked if there was any evidence that the guardian model actually works. I do not see it in the article nor elsewhere. Do you have any such evidence? The Washington guardian model has been operational for several years. Can you point to indications that it actually works? While not empirical, I do read reports that academy graduates must be retrained to handle the realities of the street.

I would also ask for your response to the posted FBI violent encounters studies. As I recall, Time Magazine, not known for incredible support of law enforcement, has an article on the studies entitled "Nice Guys Finish Dead". Granted, that was some years ago. Today, media criticizes empirical research into police use of force as the results of actual research tend to refute the media bias against law enforcement.

[Dagga Boy]

Listen and Explain with Equity and Dignity versus Ask, Tell, Make.

Stand by for a bit of a tirade, as this stuff really angers me to watch a noble profession I love destroyed.

Okay, for Cody and those of a like mind, let's discuss this on your terms. I have worked with lots of "Guardians" over the years that are just like the two morons running the Washington thing to make cops just like them. So, lets go over this in regards to if you really want a bunch of cops just like them. Here is why "guardians" hate ATM. They lack the confidence or ability to "Make". What happens is they tend to be the worst offenders of going right to "Tell" when dealing with actual criminals and tend to go overboard in an effort to play a crappy poker hand with a big bluff. The crooks tend to read this. They end up starting fights they can't finish, and then cry when the real police have to come finish the problem for them. Because they suck at this, they love doing a lot of friendly talking to anyone who will talk to them so they do not have to deal with all that ATM stuff. They seek encounters with a lot of listening and explaining with dignity and equity. Here is the problem......cops don't deal with folks who are on the equity playing field. On the other side, the cops who can obviously "Make" don't often have to get past "ask" with crooks. I was the biggest verbal judo user out there......because I could back up what was going to happen immediately after "Sir, is their anything I can say or do to get you to comply with me at this time".

Here are some very memorable incidents scarred in my head that have formulated my outlook on the world from the cop side.

Crack mom puts her baby in the microwave and cooks him to death. While one of our "Guardians" (who's call it was as primary) was outside crying her eyes out, the ATM cops were handling the incident. Explain how we have any sort of equity and dignity conversation with Crack mom? Who handles this professionally when nobody is mentally prepared for microwaved babies?

Juvenile Crip gang member kills a rival juvenile dope dealer by holding his head down and shoving a piece of rebar into his ear until it goes completely through his head. Guess black lives didn't matter to them and a good idea of what children are capable of. So do officers ATM when dealing with juvenile gang members who are always testing their power or do officers have an equity discussion with them? These are the folks that are killing each other in droves.....yet....children.

A heroin addicted couple I traffic stopped. High as kites on heroin, the car had no less than thirty dirty used and uncovered needles their baby was crawling around in while trying to do his best to get the milk out of his bottle, but can't because it has curdled to the point of being a solid. Child Protective Services gave the kid back to them the same day...because it is best for the children to be with their parents. Sort of makes arguments about drug abuse being a victimless crime and should be treated as a medical problem. Additionally, most dope fiends cannot hold a job. A majority of burglars....you know the people who victimize normal people regularly, are drug addicts. Almost all of them have been in treatment numerous times. Many would get their "free" Methodone in the morning, burglarize stuff all day so they could get their real stuff. Discuss Equity and Dignity.

One of our notorious Guardians (who sounds EXACTLY like the folks involved in Washington) was doing a hooker detail with my partners and I as her arrest team in a hotel room. She runs in the hotel room and disarms herself by putting her gun on the toilet because the guy coming to the room is carrying a baby and is trading her crack for sex. When he hits the door, we do our thing, extract the kid without injury and hand the baby off to her while we go full donnybrook with the asshole (a black firefighter). He fought hard to escape as he knew he was obviously "super-screwed" on this arrest. The Guardian was crying in the bathroom with the kid. Crying when she saw the "poor guy" who took his baby out to pick up hookers by offering Crack (he didn't have any and admitted he planned to do an intimidation rip off on her......which is translates to he was going to rape her). The Guardian then complained to our boss about my team being too aggressive and brutal. Funny.......the crook had no issues after he was told why he got tasered and his ass kicked. He knew he was trying to escape and he was going to leave his kid. He actually thanked us for doing such a good job of getting his kid to safety when he panicked. So......how many Guardians should have been in that room? I learned a lesson myself about why I avoided ever working with Guardians. I had another go round with this idiot later when she (as a fast rising supervisor) ordered two rookies to arrest a couple of drunk brothers in their own home for "disrespecting her". I told them it was an illegal arrest and tell her to write the case. I didn't get a Christmas card again. The problem with "Guardians" is once it gets past trying to use LEED to solve problems, when it doesn't work with people who are not equitable and dignified, they have not a clue what to do, and often have no ability to now go to "make".

I could do this all day. Law Enforcement deals regularly with folks outside societies norms. People who are dealing with LE because they have been unsuccessful in dealing with life's adversities with normal societal means. Most of your masters of ATM enjoy interacting with normal folks. Most are uninterested in dealing with them as they are not the targets of what they want to do.....which is protect those folks from bad people. Of course cops are individuals and there is as much good and bad as any profession whether its doctors, dentists, accountants or teachers. Most are trying to do the right thing. Society seems to have decided they know better than the professionals as to what kind of policing they want. Policing is a mirror of the community. Crappy police departments are not the result of "bad cops", it is the result of mirroring what the residents of that area have emplaced as a total package that usually starts within their local government and the residents themselves. If society wants to put the ATM cops out to pasteur as a example of what they do not want anymore, that is fine. What is not fine is when they do not like the results they will get with police agency's wholly made up of Guardians rather than a few of them. Also, you will never get those great ATM cops back. You had to learn how to be ATM cops. You were taught by previous ones. You were taught through example. You were taught by recognizing your mistakes and learning from them. When all that experience is gone, when the ability to learn and survive mistakes is gone, and when "those cops" who, through time, mistakes, successes and experience figured out how to properly use ATM are gone.......you can't re-create it from nothing. You cannot just say.....oops, that Guardian thing didn't work out, we will go back to the old way. It will be a lost art.

[SLG]

ATM is what I was taught as a cop in one of the toughest precincts in my city. Truthfully, ATM meant something different to the guys I worked with, but since Nyeti seems to like it, who am I to judge :-)

I'm not a big guy, and trying to come off like a tough guy, ordering people around all the time, just doesn't work for me. I was as professional as could be, and asked people nicely, and as long as they agreed to be professional too, it all worked out well. When it came time to M, you very quickly made a reputation for yourself as a cop who could deliver or not. I don't come from a police background, and my upbringing was pretty different from many of my brother officers. They saw me as an outsider when I first got out of the academy, but after our first big fight (2nd day on the job), most of them came around pretty quick.

There were other guys who "belonged" from day one, but when the fighting started, they found other things to do. Most were solid, but there were a few guys who looked and sounded like they belong (I still don't look or sound it), but they were usually the ones we were coming to bail out. One very brief story: A guy put out a 10-13 (highest level of officer needs assistance) on the radio, and I was in the station house. I was working a foot beat that night (rookie year) and didn't have a car. I ran out of the house and ran 3 long avenue blocks, and got there just as the first cars were arriving. I'm really not much of a runner, but being willing has always been the most important part. It didn't go unnoticed. the "guardian rookies" spent the evening complaining that they didn't have a car to respond with.

[Dagga Boy]

ATM is not what we called it, but it is their terminology so I used it so we stay on the same page. It sums it up fine. You ask people to do things respectfully in the same manner which you want in return. If that doesn't work, you move on to tell them what to do.....and not doing it is not an option.....and then you enter custody or force world. Learning how to do this takes time. It takes street time working with street people you are not like, didn't grow up like, didn't hang around with, and never seen before to figure out. Starting out with an idea of equity and dignity is cute........but not reality. Most have to learn that they are not like you, and are not playing by the same rules.

[DpdG]

DB, I don't know if you're aware, but SLG was likely refering to the fact that the "ATM" acronym has another meaning which is not used in a polite society. If you choose to google or God forbid, urban dictionary search, you have been warned.

I get and agree with the cut of your jib, but as a midnight shifter who deals with the less polite types within society, the other meaning of that acronym is the one that immediately came to mind.

[Lon]

the other meaning of that acronym is the one that immediately came to mind.

Hahahahaha. Me too. Made me think about Batman and Ra's al Ghul's daughter in this video [not porn, but EXTREMELY NSFW]:


https://youtu.be/enOHraf3LEk

[Dagga Boy]

That is funny. I know what ATM is.........my brain was just not there when on pistol forum. I look at this as a "weapons" forum. The other ATM is for the free "gun" sites.

[Ptrlcop]

The people proposing this crap will point out that not every call involves a baby microwaver. The thing they are missing is that the police likely knew what a piece of shit she was well before that happened. Then take one 15second video out of context and people are up in arms about a cop being rude to a person that he knows is capable of shit like that.

I've been accused of racial profiling for arresting a black dude. The thing is I knew dudes name and birth year off the top of my head due to MANY contacts I have had with him or was aware of him having with police. "Rounding up the usual suspects" is a saying because it works and is no way similar to profiling.

[voodoo_man]

Like the posters before me, ive had a lot of experience with the Guardian crowd trying to walk the walk.

We had an officer who wasnt entirely capable of much, rounding out his career and shouldnt have been on the street (lack of good supervision by another Guardian) who responded to a domestic. His backup, who is now a supervisor, arrived to back him up. He started getting his ass kicked by a 6'4 350 dude high as a kite who just kicked his old ladies teeth in. She is yelling at him the whole to stop, never once put a finger on him, meanwhile, she did not request backup over radio and this went on for about two minutes until my partner and I drove in on the call to see if everything was good since we knew who was responding.

Good thing we did as the old timer went to the hospital and retired later that month. She complained to the supervisor that we put the guy in the hospital for no reason other than racism and using too much force - he and she were black, partner, the old timer and myself white - after we got everything settled we filed a formal complaint against her, which was never investigated by IA, because they arent into the business of jamming up cowards, only hard working officers.

This type of BS repeats itself continuously, to the point we regularly ask for other officers to come to a call when we know one of the "guardians" is coming as backup.

Same type of person gave the "i aint goin in there" during a brief on active shooter response to schools, mil bases and heavy industry facilities.

You can keep your guardians.

[Dagga Boy]

Cody.....I don't know if you are still following this thread, but I am wondering if you have not figured out yet that departments have survived in spite of a minority percentage of guardians slipping through. They were a micro percentage when I started because our Academy was a brutal full stress operation. They did an experiment a few years later with a non-stress academy where numerous folks who washed out of my class made it through. It was short lived because so many turds were delivered to agencies. A decade or so later,,the full stress stuff was gone as many of those turds were now supervisors making the rules. The percentage of Guardians grew. Now it looks like they are the goal. The public will suffer immensely. Hopefully, hug a thug with equity and dignity works....but I also hope unicorns really do exist and there is a pot of gold under the rainbow.

[GardoneVT]

Unfortunately this sort of thing isn't limited to LE, not that policing should be afflicted by unqualified folk.

Last month an Air Force Tech Sgt. I came up through Basic with posted a Facebook update. This guy is a book smart fast burner minority, basically the perfect recruiting poster subject . Me and him shared a bit in common as non-white guys who knew how to spell and say "predicate" , and one night we wound up sharing a late night entry controller shift.

I'll never forget what he did when the MTI knocked on the door .Dude, Mr Perfect Recruitment Poster, Mister "I'm gonna be a Senior Enlisted before Obama is reelected" , abandons his fucking post . As Cheeze-D runs away from his spot by the door I end up running across the room to take his position and read off the process (its literally a paper taped to the frame near the door).

MTI walks in, looks at me , then carries on.

Guy made E-5 in two years, made Tech Sgt first test w/all the right awards and Air Force community service boxes checked. May the folks he works with never discover how much of a real "Warrior Airman" he is.

[jondoe297]

Our academy has relaxed the "warrior mentality" a lot in the last couple of years. While I'm not an advocate of the "boot camp" approach to a civilian LE academy, this shit is getting out of control. The recruits need to learn order, structure, and discipline. The ones we have come through that are prior military have "WTF?" looks on their faces sometimes with some of the crap that goes on.
During the last basic academy, I was teaching D.T., and we had a female recruit actually argue with the lead instructors over her performance in a redman scenario. A visiting instructor was sitting next to me, and had this "what the actual fuck?" look on his face. I'd had enough, so I butted in and gave her a slight dressing down, and she literally stomped off to a corner of the gym, and cried. By the end of the day, she'd tried to lodge a complaint against me for "being mean".

[Wayne Dobbs]

Our academy has relaxed the "warrior mentality" a lot in the last couple of years. While I'm not an advocate of the "boot camp" approach to a civilian LE academy, this shit is getting out of control. The recruits need to learn order, structure, and discipline. The ones we have come through that are prior military have "WTF?" looks on their faces sometimes with some of the crap that goes on.
During the last basic academy, I was teaching D.T., and we had a female recruit actually argue with the lead instructors over her performance in a redman scenario. A visiting instructor was sitting next to me, and had this "what the actual fuck?" look on his face. I'd had enough, so I butted in and gave her a slight dressing down, and she literally stomped off to a corner of the gym, and cried. By the end of the day, she'd tried to lodge a complaint against me for "being mean".

Just get her some lotion and warm water to fix her things...

[LSP972]

The recruits need to learn order, structure, and discipline.

And to do that, you have to get their full and complete attention FIRST. The only way to guarantee that is via the boot camp approach... unless you know of some new technique.

.

[41magfan]

Actually, this effort to recruit a "kinder and gentler" candidate started post Viet Nam with several larger departments and over the years it's trickled down to most agencies of any size. Attrition soon enough put the initial wave of "softies" into positions of management and leadership and the paradigm became entrenched.

[SLG]

Our academy has relaxed the "warrior mentality" a lot in the last couple of years. While I'm not an advocate of the "boot camp" approach to a civilian LE academy, this shit is getting out of control. The recruits need to learn order, structure, and discipline. The ones we have come through that are prior military have "WTF?" looks on their faces sometimes with some of the crap that goes on.
During the last basic academy, I was teaching D.T., and we had a female recruit actually argue with the lead instructors over her performance in a redman scenario. A visiting instructor was sitting next to me, and had this "what the actual fuck?" look on his face. I'd had enough, so I butted in and gave her a slight dressing down, and she literally stomped off to a corner of the gym, and cried. By the end of the day, she'd tried to lodge a complaint against me for "being mean".

Was she hot? Thats all that seems to matter to make her complaint legit.

[TGS]

Our academy has relaxed the "warrior mentality" a lot in the last couple of years. While I'm not an advocate of the "boot camp" approach to a civilian LE academy, this shit is getting out of control. The recruits need to learn order, structure, and discipline. The ones we have come through that are prior military have "WTF?" looks on their faces sometimes with some of the crap that goes on.
During the last basic academy, I was teaching D.T., and we had a female recruit actually argue with the lead instructors over her performance in a redman scenario. A visiting instructor was sitting next to me, and had this "what the actual fuck?" look on his face. I'd had enough, so I butted in and gave her a slight dressing down, and she literally stomped off to a corner of the gym, and cried. By the end of the day, she'd tried to lodge a complaint against me for "being mean".

There's a huge difference between developing a warrior mindset and having a military boot-camp style basic academy.

The two are not one and the same, and often those in the latter camp are completely fucking up the former and just stroking their ego instead.

[Dagga Boy]

I am in the camp of academies for police officers and Sheriff's deputies need to be full stress operations due to the nature of the work when they get out. It is a world I know. For other types of LE, do what you need to, but for those who are local,first responder LE going to 911 calls, their inoculation to stress, testing and decision making under stress, and operating in a paramilitary organization, especially in a crisis should not be learned or observed for the first time amongst the public and with other LEO's at risk. Those who cannot handle an artificial stress environment will be a disaster in a real one. This includes how to comport ones self off duty. We lost several folks on Monday mornings based on their weekend activities during the academy.

[LSP972]

Those who cannot handle an artificial stress environment will be a disaster in a real one.

Bingo. That's it, in a nutshell.

.

[jondoe297]

Was she hot? Thats all that seems to matter to make her complaint legit.

Actually she was, but her personality made her repulsive. The training director told me that his "talk" with her about me being mean went like this:

Recruit: "He yelled at me." Sad face
Captain: "I watched the video. He did not yell at you"
Recruit: "He was mean to me" sad face.
Captain: "You were being insubordinate"
Recruit: "No I wasn't"
Captain: "Do you understand that if your training director is telling you that you were being insubordinate, and you argue that point with him, that you are being insubordinate?"
Recruit: Sad face.
Captain: "That'll be all"

[jondoe297]

There's a huge difference between developing a warrior mindset and having a military boot-camp style basic academy.

The two are not one and the same, and often those in the latter camp are completely fucking up the former and just stroking their ego instead.

I agree with you completely.

[Dagga Boy]

I agree with you completely.

So, can I get a rundown of those successful programs with what most of us define as warriors, competent fighters, etc.... that do not have a shared team suffering initial training process.

For LE folks not doing hard side stuff, don't much care. For those who will be working in a para-military organization in highly stressful situations and who will be faced with engaging in violence that needs to be controlled, I am not comfortable with a college campus training program. This is coming from a guy who was not in the military, was recruited off a university campus and HATED the academy.......and would not have been able to do the job at the level I was without it. I also spent over 10 years as an FTO and got trainees from different types of academies. Those who had previous military experience stood out. Those with military experience and a stress academy were by far my best kids, with the exception being those who played team contact sports and went to a stress academy. The worst.....college and non-stress academy. Total zero's. Often intelligent, good at non critical tasks and useless in crisis situations and horribly risk averse.

[jondoe297]

So, can I get a rundown of those successful programs with what most of us define as warriors, competent fighters, etc.... that do not have a shared team suffering initial training process.

For LE folks not doing hard side stuff, don't much care. For those who will be working in a para-military organization in highly stressful situations and who will be faced with engaging in violence that needs to be controlled, I am not comfortable with a college campus training program. This is coming from a guy who was not in the military, was recruited off a university campus and HATED the academy.......and would not have been able to do the job at the level I was without it. I also spent over 10 years as an FTO and got trainees from different types of academies. Those who had previous military experience stood out. Those with military experience and a stress academy were by far my best kids, with the exception being those who played team contact sports and went to a stress academy. The worst.....college and non-stress academy. Total zero's. Often intelligent, good at non critical tasks and useless in crisis situations and horribly risk averse.

You appear to think it's either community college or marine corps boot camp, with no in-between, and that's cool. I'm not here to try to change your mind. We're allowed to have different experiences that result in different opinions. It's not against the rules.

[Dagga Boy]

It should be both. As much as I hated the academy, I have seen numerous variations of approach over the years in quality of trainees. I came from a university, I didn't find the community college level academics in the academy difficult. I never cracked a book (mainly due to having a near photographic memory at the time and a lot of visuals in class and good lecture), unlike my fellow classmates did not dread Friday spelling tests (score determined your extra homework), and was not stressed by the academic side and could have gotten through it with no effort or challenge.......except for all the insane running,push ups,yelling anytime we were not in class, uniform standards and having to work with others in a team. Our former Marines, including a DI, and other military folks and some with just community college had a horrible time with the academics. Fat folks had a tough time with the fitness, skinny folks had a tough time with the DT. Everyone was unhappy. We lost 2/3, mostly in the first 8 weeks. Everyone we lost had no business in LE (many ended up in LE by going to a no stress academy). What we had to do was help each other, work as a team with people totally different from us, and handle the Tac staff as a group. All critical skills. We had to deal with a lot of getting yelled at, often for stupid things or no really good reason.....hated it at the time, was near immune from people in the field getting me riled over saying stupid things or trying to evoke a response. That immunity was built in a stress organization.

My relationship with our former DI was important to why I think we need both academic and boot camp delivered in a heavy stress environment. Two guys with zero in common. He was sick of doing push ups for my IDF worthy uniform, I was sick of doing push ups for his inability to answer quiz questions in formation on legal stuff. He taught me tricks for creases (ironed in fishing line), shoe shining, gig lines, etc. I taught him how to study. We both ended up as better cops, both understood that the job needed you to be good at things your not, how to work together to cancel out liabilities and enhance capability. It was lessons learned that paid in spades later. What was funny is he thought the Academy was tougher than USMC boot camp, and I thought it was harder than a Four year University....that tells me it was about right.

The classroom was off limits to staff as it should be (but God forbid someone was sleeping or not paying attention when we went to "breaks"), the grinder and Academy grounds were the Tac Staff. It worked well. I used this same model as an FTO with great effect. Inside the car was a classroom where any question was fine, limited stress, all education. Outside the car....they had to be a boot, and act accordingly.

I saw what happens when we got folks from academies where a majority of the folks passed. I saw the results of catering to Generation "why's". The problem with those trainees is they grew up never being in a car without a seatbelt, never on a bike without a helmet, never in a fight, always got a trophy, never lived alone, never did their own laundry, not exposed to guns or violence....unless it was a video game, never played a team contact sport, etc. They are ill prepared for street police work. If they don't go to an academy that is not a safe space, they are just as Ill prepared as before they went. Sorry to say, I believe that getting emotionally broken, disappointed, and working in misery, paying for the mistakes of others, etc. is critical skills. Sucking it up and not having a cry when you really want to, being totally emotionally overwhelmed, and remaining ice cold when you are way out of your comfort zone should be tested somewhere under a watchful eye and over time before pinning on a badge.

Others may differ, but just ask yourself, who do you want in a crisis that you have to depend on. Someone who went to an Academy that was mostly community college, or mostly boot camp?

[vcdgrips]

Others may differ, but just ask yourself, who do you want in a crisis that you have to depend on. Someone who went to an Academy that was mostly community college, or mostly boot camp?

As someone who has done neither, I will take the Boot Camp model for 1000, Alex.

[voodoo_man]

Others may differ, but just ask yourself, who do you want in a crisis that you have to depend on. Someone who went to an Academy that was mostly community college, or mostly boot camp?

As someone who has done neither, I will take the Boot Camp model for 1000, Alex.

My PDs academy is somewhere in the middle, half community college half boot camp, the fluffy touchy feely stuff wasn't around and if you showed weakness youd get ate alive by someone with a round hat.

That said, the actual physical training you get just checks the box. DT? PT? Firearms? Check. Doesnt matter if you suck enough to just pass, doesn't matter if you failed horribly but you were that academies chosen demographic so you will be passed, regardless of ability.

Natural ability and aptitude for violence is usually disregard but when you get on the street it becomes very real and very required. You quickly see which boot can follow through and walk the walk, thats the boot you pick to mentor. The others, especially females of a certain disposition are statistically prone to either getting injured, working a desk or not answering the radio. Backing you up is not even on the plate of posibilities.

[Trooper224]

Our academy used to be tough, it was six months of boot camp all over again. When I was an instructor my brother-in-law was serving as a marine recuiter in the city where our academy is located. Our academy staff would assist the USMC with background investigations, so he was familiar with our training program. He told me once, "Good god, that's tougher than basic!" It made you decide really quick if that's where you wanted to be. Strangely enough, our dropout rate was rather low and we turned out those who were commonly considered to be the toughest ass kickers in the state. It wasn't uncommon for a local PD to be in the midst of an all hands on deck bar fight, the local trooper showed up and simply stepped out of his cruiser and it all stopped right there. The last thing you wanted was a smack down contest with the "Big Hat Police". Our classroom work was relaxed and non-militaristic as it should be. That kind of attitude doesn't promote a good academic environment. However, when it came time for work outside the classroom then you'd better have your shit wired tight. I'm proud to have been part of that era.

Then, we started to get recruits from Gen. X, mellennials, or whatever they're calling themselves these days. Apparently, just the act of being issued PT gear is too stressful, or god forbid you're treated like something other than mommies special snowflake. Our drop out rate started climbing to 75% so it was decided that easing up on the training regime was necessary. We didn't do it because the general public was dissatisfied with our performance, far from it in fact. It was determined to be necessary by the upper chain of command because they needed coat hangers to fill the uniform, so they'd rather have a bunch of pussies than nothing at all.

[rathos]

WSP has their own academy isn't the same one as Burien that this article is talking about. The waitlist isn't due to the new Guardian bullshit, it is due to cities and counties getting funded for new positions along with hiring for retirement. out of the last 6 that I have personally seen come out of the academy 4 have failed and the two that passed were prior reserves.


See Cody, here is the problem:

The WSP is having a lot of internal issues right now so guys are jumping ship in record numbers. Opportunists who want a LE career are applying, more since the WSP lowered their standards, hence the waitlist for acady dates.

This article is spin and you further spun it to get a new chance to evangelize. Listen to the experienced LEOs here, not their chain-of-commands.

[Jeff22]

"In my mind, a "Guardian" is a reactive, defensive-oriented profession. If that's what society wants, I think that is PRECISELY what LE should provide. Respond to calls at a speed which ensures the safety of the officer and all of the public, take a detailed, professional report on what happened, and return to duty.

When did "Warrior" become a bad title? Throughout history, Warriors have defended their society against threats, including taking the fight to the enemy when required. If you only train "Guardians," who is going to proactively target criminal activity?"

There is no point in being significantly more proactive than your agency, your prosecutor, and your community will support.

You evaluate your working environment and you do the best you can.

I thing getting worked up over the difference between "warrior" and "guardian" is partially semantics. Whether or not it actually represents a difference in the philosophy of how the law is enforced will be different in each different agency.

[SLG]

I have done zero research into the term guardian. I'm sure it's a wonderful term, with a long and glorious history.

All I think about when I hear it though, is either kid's movies, or state appointed children's guardian's. Neither makes me want to risk my life for society.