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johnson
12-09-2015, 10:39 PM
At the 1:07 mark, the cruiser rams into the back of the Camaro and apparently disables their own vehicle. And around the 2:55 mark, police start shooting at the car. A little bit later you can see a civilian run out from their Jeep to get out of the line of fire. I'm not police and have no idea on tactics but what do you guys think of it?


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0xf2DLAf3hM

Lon
12-10-2015, 12:29 AM
The driver of the SUV got out BEFORE they started shooting. You can see her get out and run away. They start shooting about the same time the car starts moving.

Good shoot. Plenty of SCOTUS decisions to back it up. Scott v. Harris and Plumhoff v. Rickard come to mind.

GardoneVT
12-10-2015, 01:40 AM
At the 1:07 mark, the cruiser rams into the back of the Camaro and apparently disables their own vehicle. And around the 2:55 mark, police start shooting at the car. A little bit later you can see a civilian run out from their Jeep to get out of the line of fire. I'm not police and have no idea on tactics but what do you guys think of it?


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0xf2DLAf3hM

Context (http://q13fox.com/2015/12/07/seattle-police-release-dash-cam-video-of-deadly-shootout-with-carjacker/); Basically the bad guy decided to reenact Grand Theft Auto V in the Seattle streets. He head on collided with an officer then drew down from inside the car-after multiple carjackings and a rolling shootout.

In so many words, dude decided he wasnt going to jail. Seattle's finest obliged.

Sammy1
12-10-2015, 02:40 AM
Good job, tough situation.

johnson
12-10-2015, 03:09 AM
I'm not questioning whether the shoot was good or not. Just the part about ramming the car directly from behind and seeing the person running across the street when they were firing.

Drang
12-10-2015, 04:10 AM
There's some links in the Shooting Incidents thread.
Note that this was actually the third car he 'jacked that day, and that he had fired at the pursuing officers during the chase.

Hambo
12-10-2015, 08:16 AM
I'm not questioning whether the shoot was good or not. Just the part about ramming the car directly from behind and seeing the person running across the street when they were firing.

The person who ran across the street while there was shooting made that decision on his/her own and was in the line of fire for one second as best I could tell. Even if they saw the person that's not much time to react and cease fire. Ken Hackathorn has repeatedly pointed out that there will be moving no-shoot targets in real life. You will have people reacting on their own and moving in or out of harms way.

Lon
12-10-2015, 08:48 AM
I watched the video again on my computer and saw the person running during the shooting. Missed that on my cell phone. Anyway, like Hambo said, they chose to run into the middle of that. I don't fault the Officers for that. They waited till she was out of the line of fire and the car started to move again before shooting. I really doubt they saw her take off again once the shooting started.

I'm not sure he meant to ram the suspect initially. Has anyone read an article where they said it was intentional? I know I've had a few instances where the brakes got so hot after running the car hard that it took a lot longer to stop than normal. I'm thinking it was unintentional. It was a bad spot to try disabling the car by ramming and ramming the rear of the car will more likely disable you instead of him, just like what happened.

Peally
12-10-2015, 09:24 AM
If he's still in there he ain't happy.

The ram looked like it could have gone both ways, it did seem unintentional considering it happened in a busy intersection without being able to box the car in.

As for the woman, why in the hell her brain told her "I better get out of my car directly in the line of fire and bolt for it" instead of "stay in car and get low" is beyond me. That was her choice for better or worse.

Just my 2 cents.

voodoo_man
12-10-2015, 09:31 AM
If he's still in there he ain't happy.

The ram looked like it could have gone both ways, it did seem unintentional considering it happened in a busy intersection without being able to box the car in.

As for the woman, why in the hell her brain told her "I better get out of my car directly in the line of fire and bolt for it" instead of "stay in car and get low" is beyond me. That was her choice for better or worse.

Just my 2 cents.

Staying in that car would have sucked.

Cars don't stop bullets.

Range1
12-10-2015, 09:32 AM
Looks like at about the 2:46 mark the officer waves her or someone to leave.

Peally
12-10-2015, 09:43 AM
Possibly.

As for cars not stopping bullets, it's better than the poop in my pants stopping anything :D

texasaggie2005
12-10-2015, 09:49 AM
I can't remember where I read it (I'm looking for the source), but an article claimed in this shooting that some of the bullets had difficulty penetrating the airbags due to the Kevlar like material in their construction. Has anybody else heard of that issue?

voodoo_man
12-10-2015, 09:58 AM
I can't remember where I read it (I'm looking for the source), but an article claimed in this shooting that some of the bullets had difficulty penetrating the airbags due to the Kevlar like material in their construction. Has anybody else heard of that issue?

..Does that really matter?

I see vehicle-related shootings nearly 1-3 times a week in the summer and 80% (off the top of my head number) are through doors and side windows.

texasaggie2005
12-10-2015, 10:06 AM
..Does that really matter?

I see vehicle-related shootings nearly 1-3 times a week in the summer and 80% (off the top of my head number) are through doors and side windows.

To me as a civilian, not really. I was just curious.

But with many newer cars having side impact airbags, I was wondering if this potential issue was something LEO's had seen before in shootings after a suspects car had been disabled.

voodoo_man
12-10-2015, 10:35 AM
To me as a civilian, not really. I was just curious.

But with many newer cars having side impact airbags, I was wondering if this potential issue was something LEO's had seen before in shootings after a suspects car had been disabled.

Without getting into specific incidents (opsec) I'll say the following:

Vehicles being disabled - we do not directly disable vehicles, I know other agencies do with strips and shooting tires, we do not do that. So when a vehicle is stopped it is either by the operator's doing or because they crashed into stuff disabling their own vehicle.

Pistol ammunition (specifically hollowpoints, HST in my experience) is highly ineffective in going through window door motors, windshields (front/back), A-pillars, door frames (where they meet the vehicle) and essentially anything other than just bare sheet metal. FMJ, especially a heavier grain of bullet does exceedingly well in this respect.

I have seen FMJ's go through side airbags, I have seen side airbags deploy after being hit by FMJ's.

Nearly all vehicle related shootings that I have personally seen revolve around shooting into the doors and the door glass windows. Effectiveness is always high with FMJ with anything over 9mm caliber.

Once incident was a 357 SIG hollow point failed to stay together with numerous vehicle impacts into the interior of the vehicle. Several .45's did really well in this regard.

texasaggie2005
12-10-2015, 10:42 AM
...

I appreciate the the answer voodoo. That jives a lot with what I have read/heard.

FWIW, here is where I read the claim. Bearing Arms: Car Airbags Stopped Bullets During Wild Seattle Police Shootout (http://bearingarms.com/car-airbags-stopped-bullets-wild-seattle-police-shootout/)


A law enforcement officer familiar with the case stated that the airbags that deployed during the wreck were made of kevlar, and that when crime scene investigators processed the car, they shook stopped rounds out of the airbags.

voodoo_man
12-10-2015, 10:54 AM
I appreciate the the answer voodoo. That jives a lot with what I have read/heard.

FWIW, here is where I read the claim. Bearing Arms: Car Airbags Stopped Bullets During Wild Seattle Police Shootout (http://bearingarms.com/car-airbags-stopped-bullets-wild-seattle-police-shootout/)

That doesn't really surprise me but again, probability of impacting an airbag? Vastly higher when you have a dozen officer's shooting at you while facing forward of the vehicle.

They were also probably shooting hollowpoints...

pablo
12-10-2015, 12:36 PM
As far as the ramming thing, he may not have had any brakes left. Most police cars, particularly CVPIs aren't the high performance machines some people think they are. Drive a car a little too hard, overheat the brakes or catch them on fire and stopping becomes serious problem.

Sammy1
12-10-2015, 01:23 PM
Brake fade. The brake fluid heats up in the lines and you loose braking or heating up between the pads causing a lose of friction. Common occurrence in pursuits. Another possibility is rough or uneven roadway just prior to the impact causing ABS to kick in and again a lose of friction and less braking capability. LEO we experience this and know it can happen, we've experienced it. Another reason I can't stand when civilians Monday morning quarterback a police incident.

Coyotesfan97
12-14-2015, 01:49 PM
It sure looked like he hit the back of the car unintentionally to me.