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Mr_White
12-04-2015, 12:17 PM
Week 141: Three Triggers

Results may be posted until January 4th, 2016.

For this drill, all you need is your pistol, two targets, and a safe direction. This is going be a dry practice drill that almost everyone can participate in regardless of range restrictions.

At bare minimum, verify gun is unloaded, have no live ammo anywhere in the dry practice area, and keep muzzle in a safe direction. But there is more you can do to ensure safety in dry practice. Please also read Robust Dry Practice Safety Principles and Procedure following the drill description.

Things you must be absolutely disciplined about for dry practice to be productive: grip the gun as hard as you do in live fire, pay attention to the sight picture, and call every dry shot. Be ruthless in evaluation of the quality of your sight picture and trigger press.

Designed by: Gabe White, inspired by a Rob Leatham class report
Target: Shooter's choice - you need a bigger target and a smaller target
Range: Shooter's choice
Rounds: 0

We are going to practice pressing the trigger from three different starting positions (of the trigger finger.) This is intended to refine the trigger press from three different starting points that can arise in the course of shooting in a broad range of circumstances.

Shooter's choice of targets and distance. Use one bigger target that approximates COM at whatever distance. Use one smaller target that approximates CNS at whatever distance. A silhouette target can suffice for both.

Procedure

Start aimed at the bigger target. Press the trigger without excessively disturbing the gun (better pay attention to the sights!) Alternate between the finger start positions of: in register, in contact with the trigger but no pressure applied, and in contact with the trigger and with partial pressure applied (held at the pressure wall, or on a DA-type trigger, with the trigger staged partway through.) Repeat many times.

Repeat, starting aimed at the smaller target.

Don't worry about keeping track of number of repetitions. Instead just note the time you spent doing the drill.

Please report: gun, targets and distance used, how long you did the drill, and anything you noticed.


Training with firearms is an inherently dangerous activity. Be sure to follow all safety protocols when using firearms or practicing these drills. These drills are provided for information purposes only. Use at your own risk.


Robust Dry Practice Safety Principles and Procedure (the closer you follow this, the fewer opportunities you will have to ND)


Principles:

Allow no distractions – focus exclusively on the task at hand

Keep muzzle in a safe direction

Use correct trigger finger discipline

Verify no live ammo in gun, on person, or in the dry practice area

Use dedicated dry practice targets that are put away until you consciously choose to begin dry practice, and taken down when you consciously end dry practice

Use dedicated dry practice magazines and dummy rounds/inert training cartridges that stay in the dry practice area (if you use any magazine or cartridges)


Procedure:

Unload gun in a location other than the dry practice area

Leave live ammo, and magazines with live ammo, completely outside the dry practice area

Enter the dry practice area

Verify gun is unloaded, that any magazines do not contain live ammo, and that any cartridges present are inert/dummy cartridges

Consciously choose to begin dry practice

Put up dry practice targets

Do your dry practice

Take down dry practice targets and put them away

Consciously choose to end dry practice

Exit the dry practice area and do something unrelated for a few minutes

Return gun to location and condition of your choosing

scw2
12-05-2015, 09:06 PM
gun: CZ 75
targets: regular sized and small sized post it note
distance used: 3 yards
time: 6 minutes

Anything you noticed: Started each rep at full extension and shot 2H. Starting in register, I saw a lot of front sight wobble pre-shot as I moved my finger off the side of the slide. However, it settled down pretty fast once finger was in trigger guard. Saw more movement starting at the wall since I was initially pressing with as much weight/speed as when movement for when no pressure was applied to start. I'm going to try this more, and may try it a bit in live fire too to see what the difference is once the added stress of live bullets is.



3 reps of each trigger press starting right before 2 min mark, random work on both targets and different starting positions for the first 2 minutes. You can see the minor wobble in the first three reps as my hand is shifting more to move trigger finger into the trigger guard. Also minor push right on the 2nd rep of the 3rd position.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a9HfJ2DxW6k

scw2
12-06-2015, 02:59 PM
Was thinking yesterday evening how things would change if I did SHO. So I ran it again this morning. Warmed up with the same targets from about 3 yards. The movement as my finger shifts from the hard register near the ejection port is very noticeable when that's the starting position. However, it quickly stabilized by the time I got on the trigger, but it just is one more thing to track while prepping the shot. There was not too much difference with the finger on the trigger and prepped, except slightly more movement or longer time to the shot breaking when the trigger isn't prepped. If you can smoothly press back, getting to the wall first and taking slack out might be better for more precise shooting, but for closer ranges or easier targets it probably doesn't matter much.

At the end, narrated what I saw with 3 reps from each starting position. Unfortunately the end of barrel is cut off but you can the increased movement when shooting with finger starting in register


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pidZ8WqASMI

BehindBlueI's
12-07-2015, 01:17 PM
gun, targets and distance used, how long you did the drill, and anything you noticed.

Gun: GP100 WC
Target: A portrait with the head being the 'big target' and an eye being the 'small target' at a real distance of about 2 yards
5 minutes.

There wasn't much difference in terms of sight stability. I disturbed the sights moving my finger from register to the trigger but had everything squared back up and stable as I started the trigger press. Staging the trigger about half way was very tiring in terms of grip strength.

Range1
12-08-2015, 08:50 PM
Worked this DotW tonight. Was somewhat anti-climactic which I will get to in a minute. Spent 15 minutes on this using a USPSA metric target at 7 yards. Worked 5 trigger presses each with a variety of pistols with differing trigger characteristics. Started with a Gen 4 Glock 23 with stock trigger, followed by a M&P full size with an Apex trigger and return spring rest stock, then a Gen 3 Glock 22 with a NY1 spring and the Ghost EVO Elite trigger, a Gen 3 Glock 34 with the Skimmer trigger and last was an M&P full size with the Apex trigger DAEK and forward set sear. I was anticipating a lot of sight movement as I have almost always had the sights move quite a bit for the first few reps of dry fire and would have to really concentrate to eliminate the movement even with two hands. My first presses with the stock trigger using 2 hands the sights did not move. First time for everything I guess. Switched to just the strong hand for the remainder of the drill. I only noticed sight movement a couple times all with the finger starting in register. Maybe my dry fire is paying off or I was concentrating more than usual. I have been consciously using a stronger grip than I used to and I am sinking the finger in to the first crease instead of centering the trigger on the pad.

MVS
12-08-2015, 09:08 PM
Gun: Gen4 G17
Target: 10-8 scaled target 7 and 25 yard circles from 2 yards not 4.
Time: 15 minutes
Noticed: My shoulders were burning. Ha. With finger in register position if I moved slowly to the trigger there was minimal movement of the gun. If moving rapidly to the trigger the gun seemed to move no matter how hard I gripped it. Shots broke ok though. It was hard at first for me to start with finger in contact with the trigger but applying no pressure.

Clusterfrack
12-09-2015, 01:40 PM
Guns: Grayguns Sig p320 full size, Gen4 G19
Targets: 1/3 and 1/6 scale USPSA metric (7 yds and 20 yds)
Time: 40 minutes
Notes: Like MVS, my arms were burning too--especially after a heavy weight training session this am... I observed similar results for both targets, and for both guns. The differences between the trigger pulls on the Sig were much more subtle than I expected, likely due to its relatively short-breaking 2.75lb trigger. For this reason, I repeated the drill with a stock G19, and found that the differences were more pronounced. I then repeated the drill SHO and WHO with both guns. The differences were even more pronounced SHO and especially WHO.

1) In register but not touching trigger: I was surprised that the sights did not move much as I swept through the trigger press. I do not often shoot this way, unless running a drill that requires it.

2) In contact with the trigger but no pressure applied: This method produced the most movement of the sights, and on the small targets I had the hardest time producing a long string of trigger presses with very little sight movement. Dips to 6:00-7:00 were most common freestyle and SHO. Dips to 6:00 were most common WHO. Movement of the sights were much more pronounced with the stock Glock than with the gamer Sig, especially SHO and WHO. I think this is because a crush grip with the support hand can buffer a crappy trigger press. I rarely shoot this way, so that may have added to the poor results here.

3) "Riding the sear" at pressure wall: This is how I shoot most often, and it yielded the best results for me under all conditions. However, I was surprised that the difference between method (1) was so small.

Good drill!

Clobbersaurus
12-10-2015, 12:59 AM
Gun: Beretta 92D Centurion
Targets: Various scaled; IPSC classic and metric, dots
Distance: 1 inch - 4 yards
Time: Several minutes per day since the DOTW was posted.

I resisted posting in this thread until now because I wanted to wrap my head around the results I was getting with this drill.

In register: I have long fingers and I use a slide register. The movement for me to come off register is awkward and slow in relative terms (which is part of the reason why I use this register position). I have to swipe my finger down and back to get on the trigger face and I always get sight movement when I do it. The front sight usually dips slightly low left, until I get onto the trigger face and steer the sights back onto the target. If I grip harder the movement is less, but slightly slower. I feel like the DAO trigger is an advantage for me and this register position as it allows me to get aggressive on the trigger after a slow and awkward movement coming off the slide and then gives me slightly more time to clean up sight picture because of the longer pull.

In contact with the trigger but no pressure applied. I had no issues with this trigger movement. No perceptible sight movement when I pulled the trigger correctly. If I gripped the gun hard and worked to isolate my trigger finger and rolled the the trigger, finishing flat, it didn't matter how fast or slow I pulled the trigger. I tried this at various distances from wall drill to dots the size of a thumb tack at 4 yards. I also and started with my finger off the trigger, almost touching (and sometimes touching) the inside leading edge of the trigger guard. I had the same results. If I do my part, the sights are very stable.

DAO trigger started half way through: I had much the same results as the drill above. No perceptible sight movement if I did my job.

I should note that I never varied my trigger finger positioning once it was on the trigger, using the pad of my index finger, and tried this drill WHO/SHO and freestyle. Obviously WHO/SHO gave me more issues with front sight movement. But again, grip, mentally isolating the trigger finger and rolling through the trigger minimized front sight movement.

I really think that the amount of effort I have placed into trigger press over the last couple of months has paid off for me. This was a good drill and I learned a lot, especially about the register position.

GRV
12-21-2015, 08:33 PM
G17 Gen4
2" circle (roll of tape) and 4" circle (sticker on 6" circle target)
5 yds
30 mins

Unorganized thoughts, in order of writing. I scribbled these notes while drilling (weeks ago).

In register: sights move to the right while moving finger to trigger, then back left and sometimes keep going left. Sometimes not enough trigger finger.

In general, slight dip in sights.

More finger on trigger is maybe better SHO and WHO?

In general, not seeing tons of consistent changes between techniques.

Speed of press matters more than anything else. Slower = smoother, up to a point, then slower = same.

Loosen SH -> can pull through faster without disturbing sights.

2" target: arm wobble >? sights (I think I meant wobble >? amount sights move when disturbed by trigger)

"Threshold speed" (quickest speed that remains smooth/undisturbed) increasing?

Can sometimes go fast with stronger grip without disturbing sights. Confirmed by multiple shots in a row.

Pulling smoothly is key, not the speed of the pull, but I'm not sure what is making smooth.

In-contact vs at-wall pulls: I don't know if they are different.

A lot of uncertainty...

DpdG
12-22-2015, 05:03 AM
Sig P226 DA/SA
Targets: various- 6x8 paper, 3in circle
4 yards
Time: 10 minutes- will continue to run drill frequently

Observations-

Firing DA
Firing from register I noticed an occasional issue with my finger tapping the front of the trigger guard, causing a gross sight alignment error. Even when finger was moved smoothly, there was still some sight wobble when coming off the frame/slide. Due to the length of the trigger pull, I could clean up the sights while the trigger was in motion. For the range and targets at hand, I would consider these acceptable trigger presses, i.e. I saw what needed to be seen.

Finger on face of trigger- This portion of the drill most closely replicates the majority of my normal dry-fire reps. I did not notice any issues other than shoulder fatigue at the end of strings.

Staged DA trigger- I could easily induce sight wobble if trigger held staged very long. Not my preferred starting position as I prefer to perform target verification/align sights before beginning trigger press and once started I try to press through without pause.

SA

Register- Decent results, but less opportunity to clean up the sights. Occasional unacceptable sight wobble as the shot broke.

Trigger faced- Worst results of the bunch for SA. The transition from slack to wall almost always induced wobble, right as the shot broke. Not sure why this performed differently than from register, but there was a noticeable decline in performance.

Slack out- Best results of the SA bunch. This is my preferred way to treat the SA trigger, after firing the DA shot, although target verification issues may preclude safely treating the SA trigger this way.



Great food for thought and further work.