2015 and beyond -- a hi cap world

[GJM]

Short of complying with state specific laws on magazine capacity, recent events reinforce my decision to carry a hi cap pistol whenever possible.

We love to debate 9 vs 45, and the shoot ability of different platforms, but I can't see choosing to have a single stack pistol the day two or more terrorists with long guns enter your life. Either running out of ammo, or firing a few shots and having to decide whether to take your pistol apart to reload, seem like really bad things.

[Mr_White]

This of course brings up the eternal odds/stakes/comfort/butthurt discussion, but I know where I come down on it.

G34, G26, two spare mags, 69 total rounds. Not trying to tell anyone to change their choices, or that they'll get killed in the streets, or are likely to face multiple terrorists with long guns. Some time ago, I even 'cut down' what I carry to a degree. Bottom line is that I do it because I like to. Period. And then when something like Paris or San Bernardino happens, I like my choices that much more.

[Irelander]

I've started carrying my Glock19 more when I can get away with it. I just need to get into the habit of consistently carrying a spare mag. Haven't found a great way to do that yet. I definitely like the feeling (peace of mind) of carrying a hi-cap pistol over a single stack.

[voodoo_man]

Thirty round pocket reload?

Two is one....

[BehindBlueI's]

Carry whatever reliable gun you shoot best in an effective caliber. Everything else is minutiae.

[RoyGBiv]

I'm moving from 9+1 rounds of .40 to 10+1 rounds of 9mm... LOL!
At least my spare is 13 rounds, up from 12. :D

[Hambo]

John Wayne said to load what your insides tell you to. Mine say to go heavy.

[LSP552]

I will admit to carrying a G17 and spare mag last night.

[Luke]

Isn't this like the 5th thread in like 2 months about this?


I predict 7 pages.

[JAD]

I would like to carry a hicap. I never found one I shoot as well as a single stack, and I am more likely to carry a single stack every day. Even the possibility of durkadurka doesn't make me want to wear a gun I shoot worse.

I'll set aside whether durka durka is a realistic concern, but I'd be interested to hear how it would be a significantly different fight for me than a Walmart parking lot robbery.

[Glenn E. Meyer]

Had this conversation at lunch with sporadic carriers. I'm moving some of them to a decent semi (G19) and an extra mag. Personally, I've been adding a G42 pocket bug to that mix.

[Kyle Reese]

I carry a G 17 Gen 4 on a daily basis with spare mag. I also picked up a Walther PPS as a lounge around / PT gun & it will supplant my Glock 42 for that role. I'll be selling the latter on here very soon.

[guymontag]

Either running out of ammo, or firing a few shots and having to decide whether to take your pistol apart to reload, seem like really bad things.

I'd say being the direct subject of a terrorist/criminal attack is a "really bad thing", regardless of what weapon you may or may not have on your person.

As much as I would LOVE a suppressed MP-5 with Corbon DPX and a functional EOTech during that moment, I won't lose sleep carrying my Walther PPS. If I do lose sleep, the terrorists have won. :P

[HCM]

a functional EOTech

Now you're just being silly.

[GJM]

If you believe that your threat is exclusively a "Tom Givens" style shooting (short hand for the scenarios his students experienced and he has reported), I don't believe caliber or capacity are likely to be decisive factors in the outcome.

If you think your exposure might be a Colorado Springs, Garland, Paris, or San Bernardino type event, I don't see how any skilled shooter could believe the capacity of your handgun and load out to be irrelevant to the odds of a successful outcome?

[Dagga Boy]

I have not changed much at all. I have been geared up for the potential of this for a very long time because I tend to live in areas that are "target types" of locations (lots of gun free zones). I have been sort of blessed since moving to Texas because I do not have public exposure in my neighborhood and can lead a snubby lifestyle at home and around the neighborhood. If I get in my vehicle...I am carrying a service size pistol, a spare magazine on my person and another four magazines within easy access, and usually at least a single back up.
I do not see having to get really nuts on firearms and capacity for most folks daily routines. The biggest thing I see as an issue is so many non-permissive areas where guns are illegal or an issue. They are magnets for the mentally ill and terrorists alike. I want to be especially prepared in those places.....or avoid those places.

[Trooper224]

No key fob guns for me.

[Rex G]

I have been routinely carrying double-column pistols, concealed, during personal time, since 2006, since obtaining the Josh Bulman FDS for my non-R P229 I bought at about the same time. (I had been toting a P229R on duty since 2004, and before that, a G22 on duty from 2002 to 2004.) I phased-in a G17, starting in 2012, as cumulative .40 recoil became painful, and completed the transition to 9mm, in G17/G19/G34 Glocks, 24/7, in October 2015, soon after my chief OK'ed 9mm as an alternative primary duty pistol cartridge.

The Gen4 Glocks are the first double-column pistols I have owned that have felt really and truly fitted and bonded to my shooting hand. Others have seemed to need the support hand's grasp to feel truly secure; I called them "handsguns," rather than handguns. The P229 felt more secure than the Gen3 Glocks, which largely prompted the 2004 switch, and now the Gen4 Glocks are much better than either, a game-changer for me.

Notably, I can get all of my skinny fingers firmly on the Gen4 G19 grip, so a G19 is a full-sized weapon in my hands, with none of the compromises of a "compact" pistol, except that my aging eyes can appreciate a bit more sight radius. Yet, the G19's size-efficiency makes the overall concealment equation easier, especially as I like to have a second gun with me much of the time.

Notably, in the years preceding my personal-time carry of double-column pistols, as a 1911/revolver guy, I tended to pack heavy, with plenty of ammo, and second guns being normal.

Regardless, we need to think beyond our guns. We can lose the fight before we have a chance to expend the capacity of a J-Snub.

[LSP552]

I do not see having to get really nuts on firearms and capacity for most folks daily routines. The biggest thing I see as an issue is so many non-permissive areas where guns are illegal or an issue. They are magnets for the mentally ill and terrorists alike. I want to be especially prepared in those places.....or avoid those places.

Agree. I stay the hell away from no guns allowed places except for the occasional work related federal building, etc. I avoid discretionary gun free zones like the nut and bullet magnet they are.

[breakingtime91]

I work at a school. That means no guns but I always carry a full on trauma kit and what is legal for me to at least put up some type of fight (sure E1b and soon a surefire pen). I did add extra mags for when I can legally carry (p2000, extra mag on me, and extras stashed in my car). I did add extra Tourniquets to my daily pack to deal with potential victims/keep myself up and functional.

[PNWTO]

I don't always carry a reload with my G19; it doesn't really bother me, I figure 16 is enough to exfil my wife and I. Would another mag be awesome? Yes and I should try to carry one more often but I honestly can't see it being a game-changing factor. The Pocket Shield I run my light from has an open Ten-Speed pouch that I'll put a 17rd in.

I think the biggest change that I have done is the addition of a SWAT TQ or a "Pocket DARK-mini" from Dark Angel; Westgate changed how I approached a lot of activities.

And of course, sometimes I"ll just have my J-Frame, a light, and a SWAT TQ on me and I don't feel less able at all.

[El Cid]

When I was in the military and carried on a CCL it was typically a full size to mid size gun and a spare mag. Only had a 2nd gun if I was on a long road trip away from familiar areas. Once I got into LE I kept the single spare mag in plain clothes on and off duty. I added a permanent BUG. As my lower back reminded me that it hates me, I added some weight to the other ankle to try and balance the baby Glock. That turned into a spare full size mag and a tourniquet.

Always had a handheld light and the last 5 or so years a weapon light is always on my primary pistol. I just suck it up and dress around it off duty. I don't think it's that difficult with some effort. My reloads are always 17rd mags as reloading in a fight with a G26/27/19/23 mag makes zero sense in my book. I may replace the 17rd mag reload on my belt with a 22rd one using TTI basepads.

Oh and after seeing the lunatic bikers attack the family in the Range Rover up in NYC, I started keeping a 33rd mag in the door pocket.

Seeing the ISIS/Islamic crap won't change my load out for now (other than the spare 22rd mag). But I'm trying to decide if I can get a lock box in my POV for a rifle and armor/placards.

[RJ]

Yeah...I guess maybe CCWing the VP9 might not be such a bad idea after all...

[Lon]

I've been carrying a hi-cap with a spare mag off duty for a while now. Don't have any plans to change that. About the only thing I've changed recently is to add an oh shit bag with extra rifle mags and medical stuff to the back of my unmarked. I had a couple extra mags on my plate carrier to go with the two mag-cinched in the rifle. Since I had a bunch of mags and gear sitting around doing nothing I figured it couldn't hurt to have some extra mags/medical in a grab and go bag.

I've got enough "expired" armor laying around that I've thought about throwing it in the trunks of my POVs with some other medical stuff/ammo. I'm not a fan of leaving long guns in trunks, but I'm re-evaluating that.

[LSP972]

Short of complying with state specific laws on magazine capacity, recent events reinforce my decision to carry a hi cap pistol whenever possible.

We love to debate 9 vs 45, and the shoot ability of different platforms, but I can't see choosing to have a single stack pistol the day two or more terrorists… OR GANGBANGERS... with long guns enter your life. Either running out of ammo, or firing a few shots and having to decide whether to take your pistol apart to reload, seem like really bad things.

FIFY.

And I must say, I'm leaning in that direction. I loves me my big bullets, but nine in the gun and ten on the belt suddenly seems a bit… well… chancy?

I put a set of Trijicon HDs on my USP Compact 9mm this morning. Gonna play with that the next few range sessions. I'm not quite to the "Holy cow! Panic button!" stage yet, where I toss panache to the wind and go for max capacity with my Grocks…;)

.

[breakingtime91]

FIFY.

And I must say, I'm leaning in that direction. I loves me my big bullets, but nine in the gun and ten on the belt suddenly seems a bit… well… chancy?

I put a set of Trijicon HDs on my USP Compact 9mm this morning. Gonna play with that the next few range sessions. I'm not quite to the "Holy cow! Panic button!" stage yet, where I toss panache to the wind and go for max capacity with my Grocks…;)

.

eh whats two rounds for hk quality ;)

[CS Tactical]

Nothing has changed for me, I still carry a Gen 4 G19 with a spare mag any time it's legal for me to do so and always keep spare mags in my car or backpack.

[Cowtown44]

Interested what people do/carry in 10 round limited states or localities.

[JDM]

228 (15 +1) and an 18rd spare every day. I used to occasionally leave the spare at home, but no more.

I'd like to carry two spares but I can't figure out how to do that without it sucking.

[CS Tactical]

10 round mags?

Standard capacity mags owned in CA before the year 2000 are legal to own, possess and use.

[SJC3081]

Interested what people do/carry in 10 round limited states or localities.

G17 with 17 round mags.

[LSP972]

eh whats two rounds for hk quality ;)

Exactly. Although its a bit more than that; I carry a G17 mag with +2 extender when doing the Gaston Shuffle...:cool:

But I'll be looking into those +5 extenders for P30 mags.

.

[LSP552]

FIFY.

And I must say, I'm leaning in that direction. I loves me my big bullets, but nine in the gun and ten on the belt suddenly seems a bit… well… chancy?

I put a set of Trijicon HDs on my USP Compact 9mm this morning. Gonna play with that the next few range sessions. I'm not quite to the "Holy cow! Panic button!" stage yet, where I toss panache to the wind and go for max capacity with my Grocks…;)

.

You will LOVE the HDs!

[JAD]

If you think your exposure might be a Colorado Springs, Garland, Paris, or San Bernardino type event, I don't see how any skilled shooter could believe the capacity of your handgun and load out to be irrelevant to the odds of a successful outcome?

That's what I'm asking. What about those examples makes them a substantially different fight than a Givens fight? It's the same number of opponents. Do you expect to need covering fire? How will capacity be relevant in Sb2 in a way it isn't at wal mart?

[gtmtnbiker98]

I have changed my daily load out, I added a PPS 9 to my left pocket a few weeks ago as a BUG. My P30 V1 9mm remains primary on and off duty with two mags on the belt.

[YVK]

I would place confidence in low probability shots at speed over capacity, if such dichotomy existed for a shooter.

[Beat Trash]

My off-duty carry gun will remain the same (Glock 19), but I have added a second spare magazine.

[SLG]

I read somewhere that you're only outgunned if you miss.

[guymontag]

I don't see how any skilled shooter could believe the capacity of your handgun and load out to be irrelevant to the odds of a successful outcome?

Irrelevant does not always equal significant... and, speaking of odds, how likely is this terrorist situation as opposed to a "Givens" situation?

I don't mean to be a contrarian. I know from where y'all are reaching your personal conclusions. I'm comfortable with my choice, and I'm even more comfortable with it when I'm around friends and family who also carry - not only because I perceive us as having more rounds, but also as having more chances... but I don't have a statistic for that.

[GAP]

IMO having more people armed in these situations would be more beneficial than one person having more spare rounds.

My primary focus remains self defense. That could mean placing rounds on target, providing cover fire as a means to escape or simply running the opposite direction.

I don't get caught up in the fantasy of becoming Batman. Not a dig at anyone, just my mindset since I'm non-LEO and I have a very short list of people that I'm willing to die for.

[BehindBlueI's]

I don't see how any skilled shooter could believe the capacity of your handgun and load out to be irrelevant to the odds of a successful outcome?

I'd rather carry my P220 into any hypothetical than my Glock 22. I shoot it more accurately faster. I do not care about the capacity difference in the slightest. If I shot the Glock 22 faster and more accurately, I'd carry it, as I do not care about the caliber difference in the slightest.

I used to really care about caliber. Then I started working a LOT of people shot. I care about caliber a lot less now. I care about speed and accuracy, reliability, and that's about it.

[GJM]

I'd rather carry my P220 into any hypothetical than my Glock 22. I shoot it more accurately faster. I do not care about the capacity difference in the slightest. If I shot the Glock 22 faster and more accurately, I'd carry it, as I do not care about the caliber difference in the slightest.

I used to really care about caliber. Then I started working a LOT of people shot. I care about caliber a lot less now. I care about speed and accuracy, reliability, and that's about it.

How about your 220 vs a 226, since you don't care about caliber and both are similar in size and fit the same holsters?

[gtmtnbiker98]

I read somewhere that you're only outgunned if you miss.
Unfortunately, I'm known for having off days. I need all that I can muster.

[BehindBlueI's]

How about your 220 vs a 226, since you don't care about caliber and both are similar in size and fit the same holsters?

Funny you should ask. I'm carrying a P226 right now as I type this. It's a wash vs my P220, my times are so similar as to be within my own deviations and accuracy is also a wash. The deciding factor for me getting a P226 was my department provides training ammunition, but only in .40. I picked up a P229 to take advantage of that and then got a good deal on a P226, so it supplanted my P220. My P226 is my normal carry gun. There are exceptions, such as going to the gym when an LCR is about all I can manage if I want my shorts to stay where shorts should stay. When concealment is more of an issue in normal clothes, it's a P245.

I guess I should add "cheapness" into things I care about. Free ammo is a big motivator.

[GJM]

Funny you should ask. I'm carrying a P226 right now as I type this. It's a wash vs my P220, my times are so similar as to be within my own deviations and accuracy is also a wash. The deciding factor for me getting a P226 was my department provides training ammunition, but only in .40. I picked up a P229 to take advantage of that and then got a good deal on a P226, so it supplanted my P220. My P226 is my normal carry gun. There are exceptions, such as going to the gym when an LCR is about all I can manage if I want my shorts to stay where shorts should stay. When concealment is more of an issue in normal clothes, it's a P245.

I guess I should add "cheapness" into things I care about. Free ammo is a big motivator.

I really enjoy shooting single stack guns like the 239 and 220. However, I reload a 226 or 229 WAY faster and consistently than the 220 and 239. The single stack guns almost seem to bring a double whammy of less ammo and harder to reload.

[BehindBlueI's]

I really enjoy shooting single stack guns like the 239 and 220. However, I reload a 226 or 229 WAY faster and consistently than the 220 and 239. The single stack guns almost seem to bring a double whammy of less ammo and harder to reload.

I'm probably out of practice now, but there used not to be much difference in my reload speeds, either. Realistically, reload speed is another thing I don't care much about. Don't get me wrong, there's no downside to being able to do it faster, but literally decades of LE data have shown that the speed of a reload is almost never a deciding factor in a gun fight and I've yet to see it matter in a civilian gunfight.

[Totem Polar]

.

I'll set aside whether durka durka is a realistic concern, but I'd be interested to hear how it would be a significantly different fight for me than a Walmart parking lot robbery.
Since you've asked twice, I'll take a stab at it. Walmart Meth guy and Johnny/Jane Jihadi are similar in that: both want soft targets; both prefer less fight than more, both ambush. The difference is that wal-meth likely wants to get out unscathed, and jihadi Jane is fine with dying. An LCP has shown good utility for warding off the resource predator, since they often book it when the range goes 2-way, but I wouldn't want anything less than "big and full" when it's on to the finish. That's the main dif I see. Just spitballing.

[JustOneGun]

I kind of take the philosophy of merging a range of options for a typical Given's shooting and a typical range of options of a terrorist shooting.

Givens stats show something like 3 to 7 yards with a reasonably fast presentation in conjunction with a side step will win the fight. But he also says sometimes you might have to shoot from 25 yards and practice that a bit also. I don't like being okay at 25 yards. So I up it to being decent at a one second per shot pace.

When we look at mass shootings the distances can be from 3 to 100+ yards. Most important to me is that when someone wants to kill me a reasonably fast draw may not be fast enough. I try to have a much faster draw. Many people just push their shooting ability to 100 yards suggesting that they can shoot that long mall or theater shot. I see long distance defense shooting as self limiting under almost all circumstances. The greater the distance brings lack of clarity to the situation, lack of clarity from others seeing me shoot(they think I'm the bad guy) and lack of clarity to what is going to walk in front of my muzzle somewhere in that long distance(people close to the shooter who hit the ground often jump and run to escape from the bad guy.

For the above reasons and for some personal political and moral reasons I plan on a tactical retreat for any gunfight that doesn't directly involve me. My Glock 27 was what I could conceal well behind the hip. That's fine for a Givens scenario. Since retiring I have switched to a G19 AIWB that I believe improves the consistency of my draw thus improving the speed of the draw. I do carry a spare for the G19 but I do understand that due to the self limiting of gunfights I will probably never use it.

So for me the only real change from what Givens says is I switched to a G19, I concentrate quite a bit more on the draw and try to maintain some speed at 25 yards. That means that I abandoned any idea of pocket carry and revolver carry(no margin for error when shooting two bad guys.)

[LSP972]

You will LOVE the HDs!

Already got a set on one of the Bowie G19s.

.

[LSP972]

However, I reload a 226 or 229 WAY faster and consistently than the 220 and 239. The single stack guns almost seem to bring a double whammy of less ammo and harder to reload.

The evils of a single stack, in-line magazine… the mag well is basically the same size as the mag. On double stack/single position feed magazines that taper at the top, the mag well is much larger than the the top portion of the magazines. Bigger hole/easier to insert/etc.

The HK45C has a "stack and a half" magazine that is tapered somewhat. I reload that much faster than I ever could with a 1911 or P220.

.

[JAD]

For clarity, I'm not saying capacity is irrelevant. Not having to reload is a beautiful thing -- but in my case secondary to being able to place bullets well.

I also think the fight is different -- terrorism implies an exfil rather than a stand and deliver type of fight. I'm just having trouble envisioning how an exfil against one or two opponents would be different in a way that would make capacity /more/ important.

[GJM]

For clarity, I'm not saying capacity is irrelevant. Not having to reload is a beautiful thing -- but in my case secondary to being able to place bullets well.

I also think the fight is different -- terrorism implies an exfil rather than a stand and deliver type of fight. I'm just having trouble envisioning how an exfil against one or two opponents would be different in a way that would make capacity /more/ important.

Looking at the coverage of the Kenya mall attack, and the non-LE/military responders, it seems obvious to me that more capacity is a very good thing in a fluid, protracted time event. While USPSA is just a game, consider the differences in time between Production shooter runs and those of Limited shooters. Even disregarding that USPSA tries to mandate stages being single stack/Production friendly, and in a game shooters are "comfortable" shooting down to a single round left in their magazine while engaging paper targets, higher capacity gives you much more flexibility in solving problems. Consider a really fast reload be in a real shooting, two seconds -- that is eight rounds on multiole targets while the single stack guy is trying to get his gun back in the fight?

[Chuck Haggard]

I work at a school. That means no guns but I always carry a full on trauma kit and what is legal for me to at least put up some type of fight (sure E1b and soon a surefire pen). I did add extra mags for when I can legally carry (p2000, extra mag on me, and extras stashed in my car). I did add extra Tourniquets to my daily pack to deal with potential victims/keep myself up and functional.

A back pack/book bag with one of the lightweight level IIIa plates in it might be a good idea to add to your gear. Some of the plates designed for this role run less than $100

[CS Tactical]

A back pack/book bag with one of the lightweight level IIIa plates in it might be a good idea to add to your gear. Some of the plates designed for this role run less than $100


The Vertx line of bags is made to house soft or hard plates, I use some level II Kevlar in my Gamut Plus.

And no it's not something we sell, but I wish we were a dealer for them :cool:

[GAP]

Unless you have a need and the ability to make a clear shot I'm hoping most people would be wise enough to use the pistol to get out of the fight rather than stay in it.

[GJM]

Unless you have a need and the ability to make a clear shot I'm hoping most people would be wise enough to use the pistol to get out of the fight rather than stay in it.

In an active shooter/terrorist scenario, I hope there would be person present with the equipment, skill and will to intervene.

[1slow]

I remember this (and much else that is good) from Paul Gomez, "ya know high capacity gives you 1 less thing to f*** with in the early part of your gun fight."
At the time he was advising my change from GL30 to GL19 with 5 more rounds on board. With ammo having improved he thought there was much to gain and little to lose.

[Peally]

I'm poor so no P30 or VP9 for 'ol Peally. For now finances demand I carrys what I gots: 31 rounds of .45 gold dots.

Trauma plates and medical equipment while I'm at work isn't a bad idea though. I'm in the same boat as breakingtime.

[Glenn E. Meyer]

Extra mag - I saw a video clip of Dave Spaulding. He's a pretty good shot and teacher. I liked his course.

Anyway, he draws his gun to demonstrate and guess what the magazine falls out. It unseated. Happens to every one. Extra mag then is a good thing rather than scrambling on the floor.

[Mr_White]

I think this could work out different ways, depending on where we are relative to the active shooter(s)/terrorists when we first become aware of them.

Fifteen feet away, someone not previously noticed, opens up with a long gun but doesn't shoot us first. I can definitely see drawing, shooting very effectively, and it's over with a low number of rounds fired. Especially if there's only one of them.

I think the likelihood of being directly at the epicenter of such an event, as in the previous example, is far less likely than being very near to such an event when it kicks off.

Change it. We are down the hall and hear shooting going on somewhere else that is very nearby. Assuming the decision to immediately locate, identify, and engage the shooter(s) is made, we might want to begin attacking them as quickly as possible, and that might be from some distance. Physical circumstances can easily produce opportunities for shots that are hard enough, that while we might still want to attempt them in this context, are by no means guaranteed. Entirely possible we are going to miss some. An attacker behind cover at some distance, offering only partial exposure, might take a lot of rounds to hit him, or further, to hit him well enough to incapacitate. And maneuver can come into it as well.

Multiple attackers, plus structure, might create a lot of opportunity and/or necessity for maneuver. More ammo in gun = more flexibility to maneuver. Maybe we take some long shots at an attacker and don't incapacitate them immediately. Maybe they're hit, maybe not, but they do feel pressure and they get behind cover. Maybe we identify a flanking position we can move to freely if we do it right this second, because in this moment he has given us the gift of breaking line of sight. Want to make that move, which is a risk, with a six shot gun? Eight? I'll take twenty.

How many attackers have these events seen so far? What happens when they get ten guys to spread out in a mall and gun it down?

Pillars, planters, parking bumpers, curbs, corners, cars, rooms, tables, sniping with a pistol out of a rack of clothing, shelves of product, upstairs, downstairs, escalators, service hallways, balconies, flanking, overrunning, 200 yard opportunities, multiple adversaries. Shoot one shot at a time and make every hit you can muster. If I go hunting I want flexibility. I want maximum capability with what I have on my person, right now.

If someone judges that they are unlikely to experience such an event, I'm not going to argue.

If someone has a low level of confidence in their overall capability between skill and equipment, and thinks their presence with a handgun won't positively affect things or only minimally so, or thinks it will be over very quickly one way or the other, I'm not going to argue.

I'm not concerned about the gear choices anyone else makes. I'm not even saying I think someone is really wrong for evaluating this differently than I do. These are just some of the nuts and bolts of what I like about a very capable type and quantity of gear.

Assuming one can do it as a practical matter in daily life, more equipment can mean more capability. There's no downside to more gear other than the effort to carry it around. It's a matter of self-assessment of odds, stakes, confidence, etc. The question is, how big a Timmy do you think you need to be, and how big a Timmy are you willing to be?

[GAP]

In an active shooter/terrorist scenario, I hope there would be person present with the equipment, skill and will to intervene.

Wife or kids are with you and three guys 50 yards away bust in with AKs, you'd intervene?

[GJM]

Wife or kids are with you and three guys 50 yards away bust in with AKs, you'd intervene?

I do not think there is one "right" answer. It depends upon the situation, your ability, and your circumstances.

I still do hope there is someone present with the equipment, skill and will to intervene, and I bet those present would hope so too. It was reported that the first LE arrived within four minutes of the 911 call. In that short period of time, two (probably) marginally trained terrorists killed 14 and wounded 21. The DC police chief got it right just a week ago when she said the time is of the essence in an active shooter situation, and fighting may well be the best response. Ulster County Sheriff, a registered Democrat, is on Fox News now saying essentially the same thing, and encouraging licensed and trained gun owners to carry whenever possible.

[GAP]

I do not think there is one "right" answer. It depends upon the situation, your ability, and your circumstances.

I still do hope there is someone present with the equipment, skill and will to intervene, and I bet those present would hope so too. It was reported that the first LE arrived within four minutes of the 911 call. In that short period of time, two (probably) marginally trained terrorists killed 14 and wounded 21. The DC police chief got it right just a week ago when she said the time is of the essence in an active shooter situation, and fighting may well be the best response. Ulster County Sheriff, a registered Democrat, is on Fox News now saying essentially the same thing, and encouraging licensed and trained gun owners to carry whenever possible.

I agree, I think there are a million factors in play so there's no easy answer. I'd like to see more people carrying in the first place. Strength in numbers for scenarios where you are outgunned.

Take a theater for instance, I'm likely not taking head shots from the top row (possibly 40 yards in the dark with anarchy) if I can make my way to a top exit. If I'm seated in row five you better believe I will be.

[Lon]

I remember this (and much else that is good) from Paul Gomez, "ya know high capacity gives you 1 less thing to f*** with in the early part of your gun fight."
At the time he was advising my change from GL30 to GL19 with 5 more rounds on board. With ammo having improved he thought there was much to gain and little to lose.

Like Tom Givens says, hi caps aren't to let you shoot more, but reload less.

[Lon]

Wife or kids are with you and three guys 50 yards away bust in with AKs, you'd intervene?

If I'm with my wife and kid? Yes. Even out of my jurisdiction. I don't think my sworn duty stops at my city limits. My wife knows to evac with the kid. Just me and the kid? Nope. Gotta get her out. She's too little to get out by herself.

[GAP]

If I'm with my wife and kid? Yes. Even out of my jurisdiction. I don't think my sworn duty stops at my city limits. My wife knows to evac with the kid. Just me and the kid? Nope. Gotta get her out. She's too little to get out by herself.

LEO vs non-LEO is much different. An accountant isn't going to think the same way. At the end of the day we need more good guys with guns so it isn't one vs. three riflemen.

[Kevin B.]

I'll set aside whether durka durka is a realistic concern, but I'd be interested to hear how it would be a significantly different fight for me than a Walmart parking lot robbery.

Generally speaking, a terrorist incident is going to require a highler degree of technical shooting and situational awareness. Neither is addressed by having more rounds in your gun.

[Josh Runkle]

Well, I draw a distinct line between intervening in something like a robbery and intervening in something like an act of terrorism. I am not a law enforcement officer, and while stopping a robbery where the outcome is uncertain is most likely easier than going up against terrorists who have already made the decision to kill people, I don't feel a distinct "debt" to society to right every wrong. If I felt that way, I should get sworn in and spend my life doing that.

On the other hand, when society itself is at risk, my family is at risk. Why allow a terrorist incident to continue, which only encourages and emboldens the enemy? What if the "next time" I'm not with my family to protect them? When it comes to terrorism, the only way this will stop is when Americans stop running away from terrorists, nut up, and start doing something about it, even at the strong potential loss of their own lives.

In the long run, trying to stop terrorists (when forcefully confronted with the situation) is a strong way to protect all of our families. Mine included.

I avoid family vacations to places like Times Square, to reduce the likelyhood that I should ever have to face such a situation, but, if confronted with going up against terrorists who are better armed in a situation where I have little to no intelligence, I would consider it my DUTY as an American, and my DUTY as a husband to make the effort to oppose such terrorist acts, even at the strong likelihood that I would not survive.

When witnessing some other crime, I would only consider it my duty to leave and call 911.

[GJM]

Well, I draw a distinct line between intervening in something like a robbery and intervening in something like an act of terrorism. I am not a law enforcement officer, and while stopping a robbery where the outcome is uncertain is most likely easier than going up against terrorists who have already made the decision to kill people, I don't feel a distinct "debt" to society to right every wrong. If I felt that way, I should get sworn in and spend my life doing that.

On the other hand, when society itself is at risk, my family is at risk. Why allow a terrorist incident to continue, which only encourages and emboldens the enemy? What if the "next time" I'm not with my family to protect them? When it comes to terrorism, the only way this will stop is when Americans stop running away from terrorists, nut up, and start doing something about it, even at the strong potential loss of their own lives.

In the long run, trying to stop terrorists (when forcefully confronted with the situation) is a strong way to protect all of our families. Mine included.

I avoid family vacations to places like Times Square, to reduce the likelyhood that I should ever have to face such a situation, but, if confronted with going up against terrorists who are better armed in a situation where I have little to no intelligence, I would consider it my DUTY as an American, and my DUTY as a husband to make the effort to oppose such terrorist acts, even at the strong likelihood that I would not survive.

When witnessing some other crime, I would only consider it my duty to leave and call 911.

I agree with your thinking.

I hate ambiguity. Somebody dragging a woman down the street by her hair, or two guys fighting on the street, I am happy to call 911 and be a good witness. Someone opens up with an AK shooting indiscriminately, there is no ambiguity for me.

[LSP552]

I agree with your thinking.

I hate ambiguity. Somebody dragging a woman down the street by her hair, or two guys fighting on the street, I am happy to call 911 and be a good witness. Someone opens up with an AK shooting indiscriminately, there is no ambiguity for me.

I agree and that's my personal trigger. Sometimes the best way to protect your family is being offensive. Lots of variables of environment, threat and personal skills and mindset so there really is no pat answer for everyone or every circumstance. Everyone needs to be thinking about their personal lines in the sand, because frankly I'm surprised we haven't see more.

[Drang]

I think that when Foreign Policy magazine published the article ‘Close Your Eyes and Pretend to Be Dead’ (http://foreignpolicy.com/2015/09/20/nairobi-kenya-westgate-mall-attack-al-shabab/) a lot of us re-evaluated our "plans" for What To Do.
To paraphrase myself (since I don't have time to find the post) if I'm safe behind hard cover but I realize the woman with kids is hiding behind a cardboard poster, and the Bad Guy with an AK is about to get them, well, my oft-stated intent to use my gun and gear to exfil me and mine safely, but to keep active participation to a minimum, may go out the window.

"May." I am still not planning to intervene, but I have realized that circumstances may dictate a need to go further, if only so that I can continue to look at myself in a mirror.

As a wise Combat Engineer major once told me, "'It depends' is almost always an accurate answer, if rarely a good one."

So, yeah, current plan is to upgrade from a 1911 (forgive me, JMB!) to, probably, a P320. (Since HH6 can have the same gun with a size small grip frame.) The EDC gear is getting a trauma kit, and a pocket size trauma kit has been procured for HH6s purse.

[guymontag]

As a wise Combat Engineer major once told me, "'It depends' is almost always an accurate answer, if rarely a good one."

I like that answer, especially to threads like these.

P.S. Wannabe deserves an award, over seven pages already!

[Totem Polar]

A back pack/book bag with one of the lightweight level IIIa plates in it might be a good idea to add to your gear. Some of the plates designed for this role run less than $100

I love you man.

As God is my witness, I've known about these products for years. I don't know why I never put 2 and 2 together. Maybe because the adverts always show a little girl with a pink bag. I've clearly been had by marketing. :D



http://ep.yimg.com/ty/cdn/yhst-98642741707334/back-to-school-2015-2.jpg

[CS Tactical]

The question is, how big a Timmy do you think you need to be, and how big a Timmy are you willing to be?

I guess I'm pretty Timmyish... :eek:

Not shown are bandaids, magazines, contact lenses, meds, batteries etc

[voodoo_man]

Since we got on this topic...

http://us.unitedshield.com/index.php/product-item/spartan-panel/

I have seen this stuff in person at SHOT earlier this year and know a bunch of guys who run them in their packs. Super light, bendable and take most pistol ammo.

[CS Tactical]

Since we got on this topic...

http://us.unitedshield.com/index.php/product-item/spartan-panel/

I have seen this stuff in person at SHOT earlier this year and know a bunch of guys who run them in their packs. Super light, bendable and take most pistol ammo.

I'm thinking of carving up my other Level II and seeing if I can fit in their to increase the protection to Level IIIa and change.

[voodoo_man]

I'm thinking of carving up my other Level II and seeing if I can fit in their to increase the protection to Level IIIa and change.

Level II....what? Soft vest? You'll have to sow the sides you cut together, or at least ducktape them shut. Or you can buy one of those plates....

[CS Tactical]

Level II....what? Soft vest? You'll have to sow the sides you cut together, or at least ducktape them shut. Or you can buy one of those plates....

No need to sow them together, my backpack above has a built in carrier and I can stack both Level II soft armor Kevlar panels on top of each other. Unless I'm missing something.

[HCM]

No need to sow them together, my backpack above has a built in carrier and I can stack both Level II soft armor Kevlar panels on top of each other. Unless I'm missing something.

He is talking about the edges of the ballistic panel from your vest. If you cut it down, you will need sew or otherwise seal the edges to maintain the integrity of the panel. I've heard superglue can work also..

[voodoo_man]

No need to sow them together, my backpack above has a built in carrier and I can stack both Level II soft armor Kevlar panels on top of each other. Unless I'm missing something.

I'll look for it the reference later, I remember a posting that explained how soft armor, if left unsecured at the edges is not as effective and will degrade faster over time, again I need to find the reference so take it with a grain of salt.

[CS Tactical]

He is talking about the edges of the ballistic panel from your vest. If you cut it down, you will need sew or otherwise seal the edges to maintain the integrity of the panel. I've heard superglue can work also..


I got ya, there's only a small portion that removed to fit into my bag and it's the portion outside of the stitching :) Just taking a peak at it, I can see how the edges can be a problem. Maybe I'll just remove it all and seal the edges.

[GJM]

I see the events of the last few weeks (Paris and CA) as game changers in moving the threat from the theoretical to the actual in the eyes of many people. As Jody mentioned in another thread, many people are asking about arming themselves, as they realize LE can not prevent events like CA. I also think there is a change in societal support for intervening in an active shooter situation, similar to the change in dealing with aircraft hijackers post Sept 11.

[breakingtime91]

Thanks for the tips guys. I wish I could just carry so I could dump whatever shit head comes through the door looking to kill the kids and me... for now my creativity and my improvised weapons will have to suffice.

[SLG]

I won't go into the details online, but you really don't want to use soft armor to upgrade a backpack. Do some research and get something designed for the role. Soft armor is designed to work one way, and it's not that way.

[CS Tactical]

I won't go into the details online, but you really don't want to use soft armor to upgrade a backpack. Do some research and get something designed for the role. Soft armor is designed to work one way, and it's not that way.

Interesting, I'll see what I can find. I understand that my choice in Kevlar won't stop anything beyond a handgun round but it's unobtrusive and was paid for years ago before sitting in my closet. I wonder why companies are selling pre cut soft armor which is the same thing I'm running.
Pics and info here:
http://deltacconcepts.com/product/iws-ballistic-panel-gamutplus/
http://www.fighterdesignusa.com/soft-armor-insert-3a-gamut-plus/

If you or Doc would like to PM me why it's not effective, I'm all ears.

[Beat Trash]

Soft armor was never designed to stop rifle rounds. For that you need ceramic plates. There is a complain that makes a ceramic plate that is sized to fit inside of the hydration pocket of a 3 day pack. A couple of years ago, my high school aged son wanted to buy one for his school backpack when there was a rash of school shootings. I talked him out of it.

But in today's world, something like that wouldn't be such a bad idea, if you carry a backpack around on your daily travels.

[SLG]

Interesting, I'll see what I can find. I understand that my choice in Kevlar won't stop anything beyond a handgun round but it's unobtrusive and was paid for years ago before sitting in my closet. I wonder why companies are selling pre cut soft armor which is the same thing I'm running.

If you or Doc would like to PM me why it's not effective, I'm all ears.

I just tried the number on your sig line. No answer. There is really nothing secret about any of this, I'm just lazy. I also don't consider myself to be an expert on armor, but thankfully, several of my friends really are at the top of that field.

The short of it is, soft armor is designed to be strapped to your body, as in, worn tight to the body, under tension. I have no doubt that a soft armor panel, if adequately backed up by your body, will more or less stop what it is rated to stop. That is to say, I am unaware of any failures in that mode. The issue becomes multiple hits, as well as times when your body isn't properly supporting the panel. Anyone who has shot an armor panel will tell you how it bunches up after a hit. Under most circumstances that i can imagine backpack armor to be used in, that bunching up will seriously reduce the available armor for another hit. That assumes that the armor was firmly against you for the initial hit. If it wasn't, things will be worse right off the bat.

is it better than nothing? Probably. If I was going to buy armor, I would buy purpose built armor, and not try to press soft armor into the role. If I really couldn't afford proper armor, then I suppose soft armor would be better than nothing.

Please note, I'm not talking about wearing rifle plates. Too heavy for this application (I have some of the absolute best, lightest rifle plates available, as well as plenty of spares). I'm talking about pistol threat rated armor, but purpose built for low viz, off body applications. Obviously rifle plates would be nicer, given the threats we're seeing, but I'm not willing to wear that around all the time, just in case. My kids certainly can't carry a rifle plate in the backpacks to school.

[rd62]

A back pack/book bag with one of the lightweight level IIIa plates in it might be a good idea to add to your gear. Some of the plates designed for this role run less than $100

Any recommendations as to a suitable product or is one Level lllA panel any different from another? Is there a practical rifle rated plate that doesn't exponentially increase the weight and cost? It's been a long time since I've worn body armor and am not up to speed but this sounds like a minimal investment in some potentially valuable insurance.

[Hambo]

That's what I'm asking. What about those examples makes them a substantially different fight than a Givens fight? It's the same number of opponents. Do you expect to need covering fire?

A Givens fight is going to be over quickly one way or the other. I think of the people at Bataclan hanging from window ledges wishing there was a fire escape from the third floor. If you're stuck, you might be able to discourage the BG from getting closer even if you can't get an outright win. Too outlandish? Last year I would have agreed. This year, not so much.

[CS Tactical]

I just tried the number on your sig line. No answer. There is really nothing secret about any of this, I'm just lazy. I also don't consider myself to be an expert on armor, but thankfully, several of my friends really are at the top of that field.

The short of it is, soft armor is designed to be strapped to your body, as in, worn tight to the body, under tension. I have no doubt that a soft armor panel, if adequately backed up by your body, will more or less stop what it is rated to stop. That is to say, I am unaware of any failures in that mode. The issue becomes multiple hits, as well as times when your body isn't properly supporting the panel. Anyone who has shot an armor panel will tell you how it bunches up after a hit. Under most circumstances that i can imagine backpack armor to be used in, that bunching up will seriously reduce the available armor for another hit. That assumes that the armor was firmly against you for the initial hit. If it wasn't, things will be worse right off the bat.

is it better than nothing? Probably. If I was going to buy armor, I would buy purpose built armor, and not try to press soft armor into the role. If I really couldn't afford proper armor, then I suppose soft armor would be better than nothing.

Please note, I'm not talking about wearing rifle plates. Too heavy for this application (I have some of the absolute best, lightest rifle plates available, as well as plenty of spares). I'm talking about pistol threat rated armor, but purpose built for low viz, off body applications. Obviously rifle plates would be nicer, given the threats we're seeing, but I'm not willing to wear that around all the time, just in case. My kids certainly can't carry a rifle plate in the backpacks to school.


Thanks for the summary, I'll upgrade to a proper plate in the future. I wasn't at the office today as we are open M-F 10 to 6.
I appreciate the education.

[GardoneVT]

So what is the best approach when someone armed with a standard handgun encounters an "Aloha Snackbar" problem?

Escort yourself and whomever is nearby to the exit and call the Cavalry, or go McClaine and chase down the scumbags best one can?

[Beat Trash]

So what is the best approach when someone armed with a standard handgun encounters an "Aloha Snackbar" problem?

Escort yourself and whomever is nearby to the exit and call the Cavalry, or go McClaine and chase down the scumbags best one can?

Be aware of your soundings and what's happening around you (Stay off of the cell phone).

Remain Calm.

Assess the situation.

Determine what your options are.

Respond accordingly.

There are too many variables to plan out ahead of time, what the best approach would be if encountering a jihadist type active shooter. And the variables and options could be changing before your eyes.

The best answer could be to get your loveliness out of the immediate area of danger, if standing near an exit. The best answer may be to engage the suspect if you have the option and the means. The best answer could be a mixture of the first two.

Kind of like discussing in advance exactly what the layout and course of fire will be if confronted by armed robbers. You really can't script it out in advance as they also have a say in how the events will unfold.

[Hambo]

Because we're shooters, we tend to focus on shooters/shooting. There was no shooting at Stade de France.

[41magfan]

Irrespective of the circumstance, 99.9% of people that become victims are casualties because they were unarmed ...... it's a matter of NO gun, not the WRONG gun or the number of rounds carried, holster used, sights chosen, blah, blah, blah.

With that reality in mind, my contingencies and preparations have been fairly consistent for the nearly four decades that I've been carrying a gun and the motivations and inspirations of those that would seek to do me harm are fairly irrelevant. Lord willing, my response to ANY aggression by ANYONE is going to be exactly the same.

But to frame this in its proper context, a lot depends on where you live and/or work. Where I happen to live, there are no symbolic icons to destroy and hijabs, burkas and beards of a certain style still draw a lot of attention and scrutiny.

Population centers have always had all kinds of baggage attached to them and the new face of domestic terrorism has and will continue to be part of that paradigm. If big city living is your reality, then you probably should have already been at heightened state of readiness and preparedness.

Thankfully, that's not part of my reality (or a significant chunk of the population) and the greatest threat has been, and will remain, an attack by a common thug ..... of which there is no shortage.

[Mitchell, Esq.]

So what is the best approach when someone armed with a standard handgun encounters an "Aloha Snackbar" problem?

Escort yourself and whomever is nearby to the exit and call the Cavalry, or go McClaine and chase down the scumbags best one can?


Take force on force active shooter classes and embrace the malignant suck.

Be honest to the problem. Be honest to yourself in regards to your skills, limits and mindset.

Do the work.

Then evaluate yourself honestly, find your stress point, identity your failings, fix them and dive back into the stew of confusion and suck to see if you do better.

Be prepared to find out you aren't all that good in a confused, decision heavy, fast paced situation in which everything is against you.

Then realize that's the hand you are gonna be dealt and deal with it by being better than you were.

[psalms144.1]

So what is the best approach when someone armed with a standard handgun encounters an "Aloha Snackbar" problem?

Escort yourself and whomever is nearby to the exit and call the Cavalry, or go McClaine and chase down the scumbags best one can?I'm not going to tell you what to do or not to do, that decision is on you, and is EXTREMELY personal. Beat Trash and the esteemed Esquire provided excellent advice, so I'll only add that if you decide to respond yourself, MAKE SURE you know EXACTLY how to respond when LE arrives. If you are openly armed, you are a TARGET. Be prepared to be treated as such. DROP YOUR GUN when directed to do so, and be prepared to be roughly handled, searched, and questioned by some pretty amped-up responders. DON'T reholster or reach for anything when told to drop your pistol - DROP IT.

Oh, and if you live in a relatively gun-unfriendly jurisdiction, expect that comments like "go McClain and chase down the scumbags" posted online will come back to haunt you...

[Glenn E. Meyer]

Drop it. Saw in a class years ago, some guy with an expensive super-duper 1911. He said that he wouldn't drop it but calmly tell the law that he was a legal, licensed carrier and he would carefully put the gun down.

The instructor then pointed out that while the gun was in your hand, you could quickly fire it from any position on the way down to putting it down. Thus, the officer would be reasonable in shooting you if you did not comply. We watched a movie with a blue gun. I think I was the only guy who correctly (in the instructor's opinion) 'shot' a guy who wouldn't drop a shotgun. Other folks just kept yelling at the screen.

[UNK]

Have you shot a Sig 320 yet?


I would like to carry a hicap. I never found one I shoot as well as a single stack, and I am more likely to carry a single stack every day. Even the possibility of durkadurka doesn't make me want to wear a gun I shoot worse.

I'll set aside whether durka durka is a realistic concern, but I'd be interested to hear how it would be a significantly different fight for me than a Walmart parking lot robbery.

[BehindBlueI's]

Because we're shooters, we tend to focus on shooters/shooting. There was no shooting at Stade de France.

If we want to be gamers, we have the luxury of being shooters. If we want to take on active shooters, we need to move beyond that and be fighters.

[Mitchell, Esq.]

If we want to be gamers, we have the luxury of being shooters. If we want to take on active shooters, we need to move beyond that and be fighters.

We need to be thinkers.

[BehindBlueI's]

We need to be thinkers.

Which is a component of being a fighter, just like shooting is.

[Dagga Boy]

So what is the best approach when someone armed with a standard handgun encounters an "Aloha Snackbar" problem?

Escort yourself and whomever is nearby to the exit and call the Cavalry, or go McClaine and chase down the scumbags best one can?

Every situation is different and you can what if yourself for years. My suggestion, keep things simple. Have front sight, press, follow through on speed dial for the solution if it comes to shooting in your brain, which will free you to think about problem solving till it gets to shooting.

[Mitchell, Esq.]

Have front sight, press, follow through on speed dial for the solution if it comes to shooting in your brain, which will free you to think about problem solving till it gets to shooting.

Hold on there...you're not seriously suggesting mastery of basic things will assist in performance under stress...are you?

I mean...That's almost like...

You know...
(Looks around the internet for people listening in)
Being focused on skill instead of gear.

Is that allowed in 2015?

[okie john]

That's what I'm asking. What about those examples makes them a substantially different fight than a Givens fight? It's the same number of opponents. Do you expect to need covering fire? How will capacity be relevant in Sb2 in a way it isn't at wal mart?

You're right about SB and a Givens fight. But future terrorist attacks will probably be more complex and involve more shooters.


Okie John

[Totem Polar]

Irrespective of the circumstance, 99.9% of people that become victims are casualties because they were unarmed ...... it's a matter of NO gun, not the WRONG gun or the number of rounds carried, holster used, sights chosen, blah, blah, blah.

If we want to be gamers, we have the luxury of being shooters. If we want to take on active shooters, we need to move beyond that and be fighters.

We need to be thinkers.
May I assume that everyone here knows who Greg Ellifritz is? If not, A) he's a cool guy and B) his site has some great stuff--including on topics similar to this one. Grist for the mill in this article, here:

http://www.activeresponsetraining.net/new-rapid-mass-murder-research-from-ron-borsch

"WHO HAS BEEN STOPPING THE ACTIVE KILLER, AND HOW?
Before investing in any theory or propaganda, enlightened administrators and trainers should exclusively examine only successful aborts. “Stopping the killing” only occurs in slightly over half of “Rapid Mass Murder”© incidents. Significant, documented, verifiable, and repeatable research has identified what strategies and tactics work in stopping the killing. In summary, they are:

1. Citizens, mostly unarmed, perform two thirds of all “Rapid Mass Murder”© aborts.
2. In citizen aborts, initiation by a single citizen stops the killing eight out of ten times.
3. Law enforcement performs one third of all “Rapid Mass Murder”© aborts.
4. In law enforcement aborts, initiation by a single officer stops the killing seven out of 10 times."

(bold mine)

Will/mindset is the most important ingredient.

This is not to discount hicap>low cap>sharp stick>nothing, mind.

[BehindBlueI's]

Will/mindset is the most important ingredient.

So...the will to fight? Like, be a fighter?

Yup, I know.

:D

[Totem Polar]

No, no, that works me. :D

[deputyG23]

Interested what people do/carry in 10 round limited states or localities.
Me too. Another question would be what would you carry in that circumstance. I would probably go to the Glock 30s since I have carried Glocks daily for 25+ years.

[Mitchell, Esq.]

I went from a Glock 19 to a S&W shield (which ended up going to the factory for the 2nd time due to failing to extract on HST 124gr+p & Critical Duty 135gr standard & +P...) and now use a H&K45C.

I miss my Glock 19, but don't do neutered mags so I'm slumming with the German monstrosity. It's like a plastic 1911 that is uglier with a worse trigger...

[Beat Trash]

IF stuck with a 10 rd magazine, does anyone have any experience using the HK P2000 9mm along with factory 10 rd magazines?

[GJM]

I used them extensively (P2000 DA/SA and OEM ten round mags) this summer, with no problems noted, shooting ball and Speer 124+P Gold Dot ammo.

[eyemahm]

IF stuck with a 10 rd magazine, does anyone have any experience using the HK P2000 9mm along with factory 10 rd magazines?
If you're using the 10 Rd USPc mags, I recommend the flat base plate over the finger rest. I broke two or three of the finger rests last year (they all broke just below the eyelet where they snap into the mag body), probably because the way they attach to the mag body isn't as strong and the unevenness of the protrusion is more sensitive to being dropped onto concrete. It's worth noting that every time when the finger rest got detached, the upper part of the base plate was still firmly seated in the correct position and so the magazine worked fine (fed rounds and could be loaded /unloaded). I wouldn't lose sleep over it if that's all you have to carry, but I wouldn't use those carry mags for training.

Never had any issues with the flat base plates.

[GJM]

My experience was with flat base plates, but I was dropping them on dirt and not cement.