.22 LR for trainin'

[60167]

I’ve been thinking about getting a .22 LR AR15 that I can set up like my swat rifle so I can train more often. I can’t take my dept issued rifle home, and our policy states that I can only shoot it on company time under company supervision. I don’t feel like that’s enough.


The reasoning behind a rifle in .22 is that I can shoot it at my local pistol range and the ammunition cost is MUCH lower than 5.56. Stated factors mean I could potentially train weekly instead of monthly at lower cost.


I intend on using it to practice weapon manipulation/transition drills in addition to some general slow fire marksmanship stuff. I realize that a .22 trainer can’t replace quality time with the real deal.


My research has led me to the Smith and Wesson M&P 15-22 due to the fact that it’s the only dedicated .22 rifle on the market with a functioning bolt catch.


Anyone else do this? Should I just save my money and shoot 5.56 like an adult?


Thanks.

[HCM]

For what you specified - This >>>>>>
Smith and Wesson M&P 15-22

[johnson]

Do you have a personally owned AR-15? If so, you could build a dedicated .22 upper to match the department rifle but the downside is the initial cost since it will be more than the M&P 15-22.

[Odin Bravo One]

I cannot think of a reason why the M&P shouldn't be used for your circumstances.

[60167]

Do you have a personally owned AR-15? If so, you could build a dedicated .22 upper to match the department rifle but the downside is the initial cost since it will be more than the M&P 15-22.

The gun collector in me wants to add another gun to the stable. Secondly, I hear the M&P has a great track record; possibly better than conversions.

[johnson]

The gun collector in me wants to add another gun to the stable. Secondly, I hear the M&P has a great track record; possibly better than conversions.

It does have a great track record but weighs next to nothing compared to a real AR if that matters (at least a full pound less).

Here's some .22LR for sale so you can stock up since I haven't had any luck finding it on the shelves in KC (northland) for a longggg time. The CCI should give you close to zero duds while Fed AutoMatch is good, although not as good as they used to be before the panic, IME.

http://palmettostatearmory.com/federal-auto-match-22lr-40gr-lead-round-nose-325rd-am22.html

http://palmettostatearmory.com/cci-22lr-standard-velocity-500rd-box-50035.html

[HCM]

Do you have a personally owned AR-15? If so, you could build a dedicated .22 upper to match the department rifle but the downside is the initial cost since it will be more than the M&P 15-22.

I have a CMMG upper which I purchased shortly before the release of the M&P 15-22. It's nice but it costs more than a M&P 15-22.

[HCM]

Do you have a personally owned AR-15? If so, you could build a dedicated .22 upper to match the department rifle but the downside is the initial cost since it will be more than the M&P 15-22.

I have a CMMG upper which I purchased shortly before the release of the M&P 15-22. It's nice but it costs more than a M&P 15-22.

[Little Creek]

M&P15-22 with Bushnell TRS-25 red dot. Yes, Yes, and Yes. Great understudy for an M4. Also works great with a can and subsonic ammo.

[Stone]

"I intend on using it to practice weapon manipulation/transition drills in addition to some general slow fire marksmanship stuff. I realize that a .22 trainer can’t replace quality time with the real deal."

And there in lies the problem. I don't subscribe to training with one caliber to simulate another. Recoil, follow up shots, weight of the rifle, etc.,etc. The AR15 market is saturated with overstock right now and great deals can be had. Wolf gold .223 can be bought for $278-299 a case. You can find a Colt 6920 for $900 or less if you shop around.

[Peally]

It's definitely a substitute, and I don't subscribe to it, but if it's way more convenient for him to pay for .22 and shoot at a pistol range I say why not ;)

[Stone]

http://aeroprecisionusa.com/aero-ac-15-complete-rifle.html $699 Not much more than the M&P

[Mack]

I have a M&P 15-22 and I get a lot of training value out of it. I set it up similarly to my real ARs and use it as a supplement to shooting 5.56. It works great and will shoot pretty much any .22 put through it.

Whenever I go shoot ARs I will shoot the .22 first and I will modify the drills I am planning to shoot with the 5.56 to try and compensate for the fact that the .22 doesn't have any appreciable recoil. I have found the .22 has helped me improve my shooting, the only caveat for me is that it is a supplement and not a substitute. I try and focus more on weapons handling and transitions with it. The only time I will ever shoot more than one round at the same target is at distance, on occasion I will run a 1-5 or similar drill with it, but at a minimum of 50 yards so there is at least some muzzle rise. So whenever I am closer than 50 yards, even if I am shooting at the same target, I will transition to different aiming points [body-head, head-body, body-head-left diamond-right diamond (I usually shoot the LVMP targets which have two diamonds on either side of the head)]

I do find always doing transitions when shooting the .22 has greatly decreased my transition times with the 5.56, which certainly is a good thing. In the past few months I've gone from doing 2 body - 1 head transitions from safety circle/indoor ready in 1 second to about .8 seconds (from 5-7 yards), which is pretty significant for me.

As others have mentioned you can't get the same training value out of it as shooting center-fire rounds, but at a fraction of the cost the .22, at least for me, has been a great benefit.

You can also put many real AR parts on the Smith so you can set it up to be similar to your duty gun.

4787

[Lost River]

I think using an understudy rifle is not a bad idea at all. Many drills can be worked on with the rimfire rig, getting the manipulations down, then switching to a full size rifle later, for more economical practice.

I have a S&W 15-22, and while it is currently set up for recreational shooting, it was bought for economical practice, as my agency does not give out practice ammo.

This thread actually reminds me that I need to use the 15-22 in the manner i originally purchased it for.

[Failure2Stop]

I have a 15/22.
Great way to get in fundamental practice at low cost.
.22 forces a shooter to employ good technique, which is a good thing when focusing on precision.

I am not a proponent of using them for manipulations, as the gun simply isn't an M4. Most of that is better served with dummy rounds and empty casings in dedicated dry-work. Same for transitions. Simply working with driving the long-gun sights to correct sight picture, pressing the trigger, and immediately transitioning to a pistol and a perfect pistol sight picture/trigger press is *better*, cheaper, easier, and less likely to cause injury than doing the drills with a sub-cal trainer.

Every tool has a job that it excels at, a place where it is a mediocre substitute, and a place where it is likely to do more harm than good. I have often fallen victim to my own desire for something to be a do-all, becoming much happier when I use it for what it is actually good at.

Just my perspective.
At any rate, the 15/22 is a good semi-auto .22, and a great AR-style .22.

From Tapatalk

[LSP972]

And there in lies the problem. I don't subscribe to training with one caliber to simulate another.

Well, that is open to interpretation. Your point is valid, to a degree… but you figure in learning/building muscle memory in terms of manipulations, etc., then a dedicated rimfire piece makes all kinds of sense.

As an example; my #1 grandson is a pretty fair pistol hand; I've been working with him since he was six. A few years back, he announced it was time for him to get up-to-speed on the selection of Colt carbines in our safe. Okay, no sweat.

I have a stainless CMMG .22 adapter, consisting of a replacement bolt carrier assembly and dedicated magazines. With Mini-Mags, it works outstandingly. After a lot of work, and several thousand Mini-Mags, with old Granddad on his ass and in his ear, the man-boy is quite skilled with the gun and performed superbly in two-day immersion class I enrolled him in. He transitioned to the centerfire cartridge seamlessly (I love it when I get to use tactical terms:p ).

When I say manipulations, what I'm primarily talking about is working the safety, the bolt, loading, and clearing malfs. A complete rimfire AR such as the S&W, which is configured exactly like a "real" one, can do all that- except for the malfunction clearance- as well. The only reason I don't own one is because the CMMG kit has been so reliable, in all three of my Colts and a BushMaster I had for a while.

So, yes, OP, getting one is an excellent idea. Feeding it may be an issue; blowback rimfire guns of this genre need solid, powerful, clean-running ammunition to be reliable. I was fortunate enough to have purchased several 5K cases of Mini-Mags back when Midway was selling them for <$250. I sure wish I could go back to those days; I would have taken out a loan and bought a box car full of them.

.

[Little Creek]

I have a M&P 15-22 and I get a lot of training value out of it. I set it up similarly to my real ARs and use it as a supplement to shooting 5.56. It works great and will shoot pretty much any .22 put through it.

Whenever I go shoot ARs I will shoot the .22 first and I will modify the drills I am planning to shoot with the 5.56 to try and compensate for the fact that the .22 doesn't have any appreciable recoil. I have found the .22 has helped me improve my shooting, the only caveat for me is that it is a supplement and not a substitute. I try and focus more on weapons handling and transitions with it. The only time I will ever shoot more than one round at the same target is at distance, on occasion I will run a 1-5 or similar drill with it, but at a minimum of 50 yards so there is at least some muzzle rise. So whenever I am closer than 50 yards, even if I am shooting at the same target, I will transition to different aiming points [body-head, head-body, body-head-left diamond-right diamond (I usually shoot the LVMP targets which have two diamonds on either side of the head)]

I do find always doing transitions when shooting the .22 has greatly decreased my transition times with the 5.56, which certainly is a good thing. In the past few months I've gone from doing 2 body - 1 head transitions from safety circle/indoor ready in 1 second to about .8 seconds (from 5-7 yards), which is pretty significant for me.

As others have mentioned you can't get the same training value out of it as shooting center-fire rounds, but at a fraction of the cost the .22, at least for me, has been a great benefit.

You can also put many real AR parts on the Smith so you can set it up to be similar to your duty gun.

https://pistol-forum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=4787&stc=1
Your experience mirrors mine.

[Al T.]

Pat Rogers allows M&P 15-22s in his classes. I liked mine so much, I got two... ;)