Which way to go if that happens...

[LSP972]

… "that" being the coronation of The HildeBeast and her following through on her stated intention to abrogate the Second Amendment. I don't think there's any doubt she will do it. The question is, how far will she go?

For purposes of discussion in this thread, I'm asking about a suitable rifle/carbine. To keep it as uncluttered as possible, let's say that ALL self-actuated actions will be contraband, leaving us with bolt, pump, and lever guns as the only legal-to-possess variations.

What I'm trying to decide is what to get in preparation for such a catastrophe: a bolt or lever? Pumps are a distant third, due, IMO, to the very few examples available.

From my perspective, the lever gun brings a bit more capacity, more-rapid repeat shots, and the ability to be topped off without taking the piece out of action, to the table. The problem is, I have next to zero experience with them; I've never owned one, and can count on my fingers the times I have handled/fired one. From that very limited experience, they seem to me to be rather finicky and not nearly as dependable as a Mauser-type bolt action.

OTOH, that bolt gun isn't exactly the best thing to deal with multiple opponents at relatively close ranges with. And that is my primary concern… dealing with looters, brigands, marauders, whatever term you apply to those intent on relieving you of your hard-won assets.

A Scout-type rifle: short, with a low-power forward mounted scope, detachable magazines with perhaps an extra on the gun, a'la the Steyr: seems the best option in a bolt gun. But we're talking serious dollars to get a properly set-up one of those… dollars that might be better spent on other preparations. And no matter how tricked-out it may be, it won't have the continuity of fire of a working lever action.

So what I'm asking here is… which would you choose, why, and what specific example.

Please, let's confine this discussion to the hardware and application of same. This is not the place for any "from my cold, dead hands!" and other anti-authority flights of fancy. And with that statement, please do not think I'm against freedom, etc. Its just that I know such attitudes, in any but a total societal collapse, will have but one unhappy ending.

So, let's hear your thoughts. This has been floating around in the back of my mind for a few months, now. All the recent lever gun threads have pushed it to the front. And I deliberately did not delve into caliber considerations. That's an entirely separate discussion for later. Mention it if you want; it certainly has relevance.

.

[Gray222]

Let's cross that bridge, over the red river, when and if we get to it, philosophically speaking.

As for rifles, ruger gunsite scout rifle - http://www.ruger.com/products/gunsiteScoutRifle/models.html - seems to fit the bill for a lot of things and is essentially legal everywhere.

[SLG]

I think you can't separate the caliber from the action. IME, LA guns are only faster to shoot if you are using pistol ammo. At the other end, almost no LA's take real rifle cartridges. So, if you want 308/3006 type flexibility, then a good M70 will be as fast to shoot, and definitely more robust/accurate/flexible. If you are happy with the pistol stuff, then a short light LA may be the way to go. I like them all.

I also think an 870 or benelli M2 is possibly a better choice for your scenario. Never mind the benelli, it wouldn't count, but the 870 is gtg.

I have had lots of scout rifles over the years, from Cooper's original #1 style, to the Steyr, and custom ones in between. Still have a couple. Nothing wrong with any of those rifles (though they are not my first choice, see above) but I would never choose a scout scope for anything in 2016. It simply doesn't work in all sorts of conditions where a more conventional scope like a NF 1-4 or 2.5-10 works better.

[BehindBlueI's]

Meh. Even Bill with a friendly Congress and no wars or economic issues to take focus could only get a weak ban on a hand full of cosmetic features with a built in sunset. I'm not real worried about a mass ban on semi-autos, especially with no grandfathering.

[Glenn E. Meyer]

That's probably correct. The antigunners well understand the flaws in the AWB from their point of view. The available stock of EBRs, plus the manufacture of new guns with equal efficacy but cosmetic changes led to there being no effect from the AWB on any crime index. Thus, straight forward antis will say that the only viable option is for a mandatory turn in of current EBRs (as they define them) and ban on manufacture and import on the Federal level. I don't see that happening with the next Congress.

Now, some terrible massacre might stampede them into such - but is that likely? It has happened elsewhere and in certain states here.

The more likely scenario is that currently antigun states will tighten bans and mandate turn ins. States with urban populations that are growing might go that way (like Colorado).

I doubt the SCOTUS would find the local rules unconstitutional. Scalia gave permission for sensible laws and that is being used. There is a current case that might break the local EBR laws (I forget the name) but they don't seem to want to take it up and who knows how it would go.

If the Democrats do get to appoint justices to SCOTUS, it would be idiotic to bring a case before them as they could undo the current cases and negate our view of the 2nd Amend.

As far as the gun type - if the worst happened, you could forget any semi rifle. Lever actions might go also.

All the idiots who say that you only need to fire 2 shots in SD are being quoted in some courts for reasons that handgun bans on our favorite semis are OK. The gun world says so.

[HCM]

I agree with BehindblueI's action at the federal level is unlikely and even if a federal EBR ban passed, without a grandfather provision it would be un enforceable.

As to LSP's OP - I would look at the Ruger Gunsite Scout with the synthetic stock and a 1-4 or 1-6 low power variable scope with illuminated reticle. The laminate version is ok but it is heavy for a scout and handles like a 2x4. The synthetic stock version feels like a different gun.

A more modern lever, like the Browning BLR might be worth a look.

Re: pump rifles - I've had some time on the Remington 7615 - don't waste your time.

[Malamute]

This has occupied my thoughts some, partly because I simply like lever and bolt guns much more than self loaders. As a general purpose field and crossover defensive gun, they will work, and are certainly a step up in decisive power than handguns, even when in handgun calibers.

A few years ago I cut down an Enfield No4 to 19", with a US 1917 front sight band. I also cut the forend back a bit, and moved the stock band/sling mount back 1 or 2 inches. It handled well for a bolt gun. I had it in mind as a Canada rifle if I traveled to Alaska again, as it could be kept unloaded, but a 10 rd magazine snapped in easily, and reloaded with strippers. It would also have been workable in the lower 48 in states that frowned on loaded long guns in vehicles. I ended up selling it.

My experience with lever actions is that I've had less functional issues with Winchester 94's than any other long gun, including two commercial Mausers and a couple 1903 Springfields. I have zero hesitation that they will work when needed. The pistol caliber chambered guns on the Winchester 94 action have some quirks, and the link (part that stops more cartridges from coming out of the mag when cycling) is more temperamental than the 30-30's. Thats one reason I prefer the 92 action for pistol type cartridges. Maybe I've just been lucky. The lever actions have worked well for me though. I've had more functional quirks and issues with Marlins than Winchesters. They are pretty good guns nonetheless.

For what may be a vehicle gun, the 16" barreled levers, commonly called "trappers", are very handy. In 30-30 they only hold 5 in the magazine, where a 20" gun will hold 6, and sometimes 7 if pushed, (though I think its hard on the magazine spring to mash it that far and force it). In 44 mag, the 16" holds 9 normally, the 20" guns hold 11. I'm leaning towards an Angle Eject Winchester 94 in 30-30 cal with 16" barrel and low power scope mounted on the receiver. I think it would be a good general purpose gun and be pretty easy to use within 200-250 yards. Sighted a couple inches high @ 100 yards they are fairly close out to 225-ish for holding right on. The Hornady ammo helps a little, but not as much as their ad hypes them up to be. Most ammo has better BC than what they compare it to in their ads, and they play smoke and mirror games with sight height and sight in distances to make the Leverevolution stuff look like more of an improvement than it really is. For non hunting use, I'd lean towayds the 150 gr or 125 gr ammo for faster expansion and a little higher velocity. I have some 130 gr Speer I want to try out. If handloading, the Speer bullets have about the best BC other than the Leverevolution bullets. The 170 gr Hornadys about the worst, though they are good game bullets if not stretched too far distance wise.

I'm considering cutting a Browning 92 in 44 down to 17" as a general knock around/truck gun. It has a light mount on it already, and would be in a handgun caliber I use quite a bit. 200 gr hollowpoints at moderate velocity whack deer well, they should work in a defensive capacity also.

Levers are somewhat slow to load compared to detachable box magazines or stripper clips, but can be topped off with the gun loaded and ready if need be. If one doesnt run them empty, it would help offset the relatively lower capacity.

Later 94s are often hard to feed more rounds into the loading gate with a few in it. Its a simple fix. Some consider it "normal" for some reason, and suggest that not pushing each round all the way in is "the right way" to load them. I dont. Older 94s feed new rounds into the gate slick as can be for the most part, theres no reason a later one shouldnt.

Winchester 94s are best not dry fired. They can break the tip off the firing pin if dry fired without a snap cap, but will otherwise last about forever if not dry fired.

Hope some of that was of use or interest.

[LSP972]

I think you can't separate the caliber from the action. IME, LA guns are only faster to shoot if you are using pistol ammo.

That's what I thought, but just don't have the trigger time to know. I was leaning toward .357; got some of that, and a ton of .38. But I'm also looking for some reach, which is why I'm keeping 30-30 an option and not considering my 870P.

And regarding the scope, I was already "set" on a 1.5/2X as the low power end, for the reason you gave.

And the time to cross that river is now; after the fact will be too late, as every other mother's son will be scrambling to comply. And while I agree that a total ban of some sort is unlikely, I'm also not foolish enough to discount it entirely. It could be done with the stroke of a pen; so, again, let's leave the what-ifs out of it, please. Just assume it WILL occur, for the sake of discussion. SLG, that wasn't aimed at you, BTW. Guess I wasn't clear enough with my plea to avoid nay-saying...

As for the Ruger offering, I've looked at it. Decent piece, but a bit heavy as compared to their American Ranch offering. But Christ, the prices they are asking for extra magazines! I was quoted $75 for the Scout magazine.

.

[jc000]

Great thread topic. For a bolt gun that takes detachable magazines, what you might carry in a load out is apparent. With a level action, specifically a pistol-cailber version, how would you carry extra rounds? A bandolier???

[Kyle Reese]

Under this future dystopian scenario, who is to say that manually operated firearms and optics will remain legal?

[LSP972]

Re: pump rifles - I've had some time on the Remington 7615 - don't waste your time.

Trust me, I'm well aware of that. Some suit at the local PD was visited one night by The Good Idea Fairy, and he bought several hundred of those abortions for patrol rifles. Our guys looked at them too, but sent the T&E examples back two days after opening the box. The poor sods at the PD FTU tried to make them work… it was incredibly ugly.

.

[PNWTO]

Something else I wonder is the extent of the classic "sporting purposes only" line of thought. Would the the current selection of 16" and 18" bolt guns go away? What line would the powers draw between "sporting" and "tactical"? I'll happily take a shorter lever gun in .357/.44 over a 20" short action bolt platform.

Back to the OP topic, the Ruger Ranch Rifle in .300 BLK with a 1-4x/1-6x was the first thing that came to mind. I have a Vang'd 18.5" 590A1 with a +2 tube that groups slugs surprisingly well, probably even better if events motivated to put a RDS on it.

[LSP972]

This has occupied my thoughts some, partly because I simply like lever and bolt guns much more than self loaders. As a general purpose field and crossover defensive gun, they will work, and are certainly a step up in decisive power than handguns, even when in handgun calibers.

A few years ago I cut down an Enfield No4 to 19", with a US 1917 front sight band. I also cut the stock back a bit, and moved the stock band back 1 or 2 inches. It handled well for a bolt gun. I had it in mind as a Canada rifle if I traveled to Alaska again, as it could be kept unloaded, but a 10 rd magazine snapped in easily, and reloaded with strippers. It would also have been workable in the lower 48 in states that frowned on loaded long guns in vehicles. I ended up selling it.

My experience with lever actions is that I've had less functional issues with Winchester 94's than any other long gun, including two commercial Mausers and a couple 1903 Springfields. I have zero hesitation that they will work when needed. The pistol caliber chambered guns on the Winchester 94 action have some quirks, and the link (part that stops more cartridges from coming out of the mag when cycling) is more temperamental than the 30-30's. Thats one reason I prefer the 92 action for pistol type cartridges. Maybe I've just been lucky. The lever actions have worked well for me though. I've had more functional quirks and issues with Marlins than Winchesters. They are pretty good guns nonetheless.

For what may be a vehicle gun, the 16" barreled levers, commonly called "trappers", are very handy. In 30-30 they only hold 5 in the magazine, where a 20" gun will hold 6, and sometimes 7 if pushed, (though I think its hard on the magazine spring to mash it that far and force it). In 44 mag, the 16" holds 9 normally, the 20" guns hold 11. I'm leaning towards an Angle Eject Winchester 94 in 30-30 cal with 16" barrel and low power scope mounted on the receiver. I think it would be a good general purpose gun and be pretty easy to use within 200-250 yards. Sighted a couple inches high @ 100 yards they are fairly close out to 225-ish for holding right on. The Hornady ammo helps a little, but not as much as their ad hypes them up to be. Most ammo has better BC than what they compare it to in their ads, and they play smoke and mirror games with sight height and sight in distances to make the Leverevolution stuff look like more of an improvement than it really is. For non hunting use, I'd lean towayds the 150 gr or 125 gr ammo for faster expansion and a little higher velocity. I have some 130 gr Speer I want to try out. If handloading, the Speer bullets have about the best BC other than the Leverevolution bullets. The 170 gr Hornadys about the worst, though they are good game bullets if not stretched too far distance wise.

I'm considering cutting a Browning 92 in 44 down to 17" as a general knock around/truck gun. It has a light mount on it already, and would be in a handgun caliber I use quite a bit. 200 gr hollowpoints at moderate velocity whack deer well, they should work in a defensive capacity also.

Levers are somewhat slow to load compared to detachable box magazines or stripper clips, but can be topped off with the gun loaded and ready if need be. If one doesnt run them empty, it would help offset the relatively lower capacity.

Later 94s are often hard to feed more rounds into the loading gate with a few in it. Its a simple fix. Some consider it "normal" for some reason, and suggest that not pushing each round all the way in is "the right way" to load them. I dont. Older 94s feed new rounds into the gate slick as can be for the most part, theres no reason a later one shouldnt.

Winchester 94s are best not dry fired. They can break the tip off the firing pin if dry fired without a snap cap, but will otherwise last about forever if not dry fired.

Hope some of that was of use or interest.

Absolutely; excellent gouge. Thanks.

.

[Gray222]

Under this future dystopian scenario, who is to say that manually operated firearms and optics will remain legal?

Hard to ban what is essentially a hunting rifle with some various features...

[LSP972]

Great thread topic. For a bolt gun that takes detachable magazines, what you might carry in a load out is apparent. With a level action, specifically a pistol-cailber version, how would you carry extra rounds? A bandolier???

Definitely a consideration. I was thinking a belt loop carrier, such as I used to carry behind the holster for topping-up my M-66 revolver. Aside from not being into the Pancho Villa look, bandoliers just get in the way.

This is why I want to hash this out now… while I can still easily find the accessory odds and ends to make it work, as opposed to grabbing whatever- if anything- is left if it becomes a reality and everybody else is in full panic mode, snarfing everything in sight.

.

[HCM]

That's what I thought, but just don't have the trigger time to know. I was leaning toward .357; got some of that, and a ton of .38. But I'm also looking for some reach, which is why I'm keeping 30-30 an option and not considering my 870P.

And regarding the scope, I was already "set" on a 1.5/2X as the low power end, for the reason you gave.

And the time to cross that river is now; after the fact will be too late, as every other mother's son will be scrambling to comply. And while I agree that a total ban of some sort is unlikely, I'm also not foolish enough to discount it entirely. It could be done with the stroke of a pen; so, again, let's leave the what-ifs out of it, please. Just assume it WILL occur, for the sake of discussion.

As for the Ruger offering, I've looked at it. Decent piece, but a bit heavy as compared to their American Ranch offering. But Christ, the prices they are asking for extra magazines! I was quoted $75 for the Scout magazine.

.

It takes the AI pattern mags. MagPul is now making reasonably priced AI pattern mags that work.

[Malamute]

Great thread topic. For a bolt gun that takes detachable magazines, what you might carry in a load out is apparent. With a level action, specifically a pistol-cailber version, how would you carry extra rounds? A bandolier???

I use cartridge belts some. They are a handy way to keep ammo available, dont take up much space, and you can have loads ready for single loading pretty quickly. When I shoot much, I put the buckle in the back so the shells are easy to get to. I also keep a few small game loads in the belt, so I can grab one easily. Cartridge belts probably seem outlandish to some, but they are a simple and effective way to keep shells handy and ready, like having a spare mag. 38 cartridge belts usually work with 30-30 shells if stretched a little, and usually hold about 25 rds. I keep one coiled up on the tunnel of my truck covered with a hat and gloves. The carbine usually lays against the passenger seat wedged between the center console and seat. A couple of the plastic carrier deals that Federal used to pack sporting ammo in are handy for sticking in a pocket also. Theres a couple of them in the console. And more shells in the truck in the back.

Carrying some shells in a pocket isnt bad, but if you get too many it gets hard to manage them. about 8-10 seems to work for me, smaller pockets than Carhartts may not take that many before it gets hard to grab them. Keeping the rounds oriented the right way when pulled out speeds reloads up. I sometimes carry about 8 in a front right pocket, and that many in the right rear. Makes it fairly simple to manage and quick to use. If it got really wild west, a simple shoulder or belt bag, like a drop pouch, may work for keeping a larger quantity available. Being able to reach your hand in it and not be cramped with some shells in your hand is important.

[ASH556]

I think I'd take a SA bolt in .308 or similar preferably with DBM. A 2.5-10 or similar scope will do quite well kept at its bottom end of magnification. Anything tighter than that (indoors, etc) can be done with a pistol.

[PNWTO]

It takes the AI pattern mags. MagPul is now making reasonably priced AI pattern mags that work.

This and all the GSR talk at the Hill People Gear forums took the little Ruger from "Kinda Cool" to "Will Buy in 2016" for me.

[johnson]

I thought these Blaser actions were pretty neat a few years ago bUT never followed up. Similar to the euro straight pull Mauser actions.


https://youtu.be/ceYnI4DsXYQ

[Kyle Reese]

Hard to ban what is essentially a hunting rifle with some various features...

Yet Australia did just that in 1996.

[BN]

These use AR or M1 magazines. http://www.mossberg.com/category/series/mvp-series/mvp-patrol/

A buddy has one in .223 and says it is pretty accurate.

[Gray222]

Yet Australia did just that in 1996.

Wasn't a ban, it was a buy back.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_laws_in_Australia

It also, was not all encompassing and Australia did not have the 2nd Amendment which guarantees firearms for the people.

Either way, the US is not exactly a pushover country, this country was founded with firearms.

[eb07]

Yet Australia did just that in 1996.

Australia also did not have a 2d amendment. The only way this fantasy scenario is happening is a complete government breakdown, USCON gets thrown out, and a new totalitarian government is implemented. If and when that happens, your choice of lever actions or bolt guns will be the least of your worries.

But I'll play, I like either the the Smith K or L frame 6 shot 357 handgun and the ruger 77/357 5 shot rotary mag for this scenario or to keep it to commonly used ammo a smith 547 k frame 6 shot 9mm and a savage 223 4 shot bolt action.

[Gray222]

Australia also did not have a 2d amendment. The only way this fantasy scenario is happening is a complete government breakdown, USCON gets thrown out, and a new totalitarian government is implemented. If and when that happens, your choice of lever actions or bolt guns will be the least of your worries.

But I'll play, I like either the the Smith K or L frame 6 shot 357 handgun and the ruger 77/357 5 shot rotary mag for this scenario or to keep it to commonly used ammo a smith 547 k frame 6 shot 9mm and a savage 223 4 shot bolt action.

People will be slitting throats long before that occurs.

[Cookie Monster]

Definitely a consideration. I was thinking a belt loop carrier, such as I used to carry behind the holster for topping-up my M-66 revolver. Aside from not being into the Pancho Villa look, bandoliers just get in the way.

This is why I want to hash this out now… while I can still easily find the accessory odds and ends to make it work, as opposed to grabbing whatever- if anything- is left if it becomes a reality and everybody else is in full panic mode, snarfing everything in sight.

.

I ran a Lever Gun through a Thunder Ranch Rifle class loading out of my sagging right front pocket. It worked, how well is up for discussion.

[Lester Polfus]

For various reasons, I don't own any EBR's, so I've spent some time thrashing out this concept.

When comparing the bolt and the lever, I don't think there is a clear cut winner. I honestly would suggest, if budget permits, buying one of each, deciding which one to go with and then either selling the looser or relegating it to the back of the safe. You could likely use the same optic for both.

A few observations:


.357 Mag out of a 16" isn't exactly the same as a .30-30, but they are so close I think I come down on the side that the ballistic margin between the two is offset by the greater mag capacity, and the ammo commonality with a revolver.

If you use the same .357 ammo for a rifle and a lever action, I don't know of a way to use an expanding bullet with out it either not expanding in the pistol, or over expanding in the rifle.

When I'm in practice, I can deliver aimed fire with a broken in lever action for the first 5 or six shots almost as fast as I can with a semi-auto, at ranges from 25 to 100 yards. Also if I'm in practice, I can load the next six rounds out of a butt cuff pretty damn quick too. That isn't as satisfying as a 30 round box mag, but its still "enough" for most realistic scenarios.

I'm only a little slower with a bolt gun, but that's a .308 and not a .30-30. The Ruger Scout wasn't A Thing when I was wringing out this concept, and the other DBM platforms were out of my price range. I settled on a Ruger M77mk2 in .308 with a Leupold Vari-x 3 with a 1.5 to 5 and a 18" barrel. If it burned up in a fire or was stolen, I would probably replace it with a Ruger Scout.

The XS sights for the Lever Guns are excellent for close fast work, and aren't bad at all for more deliberate, long range shooting.

Like many of Cooper's ideas, the extended eye relief, fixed power "scout scope" was exactly the right solution during the decade that he developed it. Today, the various electronic sights, or even a variable 1.5 to 6 is superior.

Neither the lever gun or the bolt will handle sustained fire as well as a military grade semi auto rifle. The barrel heats up and the groups open up. You can also ruin a barrel if you aren't careful.

I don't feel under armed with either a bolt .308 or a lever .30-30, and in fact feel like there are some advantages. However, I did find that when I owned a 16" AR-15, I felt no need to also own a defensive shotgun. Now I do. That's not a big deal for me, as I maintain proficiency on both as hunting and general purpose weapons.

While there are other solutions, a piece of Magpul rail and two woodscrews makes a dandy light mount.

[Hambo]

I don't think the gov that bans your AR will look favorable on you blasting people at rifle distance, hence the shotgun suggestion is probably a good one. Keep a slug barrel for deer ;)

As for rifles, I'd buy a rifle caliber. Bolt: Ruger Scout in .308 or a Savage 111 Hog Hunter in same if box fed bolts are evil. Lever: Browning BLR or Marlin 1895.

[Jason M]

Good afternoon all,

I am new to this forum as a member but I wanted to jump in here. A composite stocked, blue Ruger GSR in .380 just became mine a couple of weeks ago. This one...http://www.ruger.com/products/gunsiteScoutRifle/specSheets/6830_order.html

It was not something that I was looking for as I have an 870 that would be used to fill the role that LSP972 is talking about. From a defensive standpoint, I think the 870 has a lot going for it. The pump action is fast and the 12g terminal ballistics are proven. On the other hand the effective range is less than a .308 and it is not as fast to reload to capacity as a DBM rifle. But, the deal on this rifle was just too good to pass up. As others have mentioned, the laminated stock models feel really clunky. The composite stocked version is not like that at all. The rifle is stunningly light but feels solid. While the action of the bolt is not the smoothest, I am really pleased with trigger. It is very clean and has no over travel. Also as others have mentioned, Mag Pull makes an AI pattern mag that works in the GSR at a much lower price point that the OEM mags.

I am a neophyte when it come to bolt guns so I am figuring the set up as I go along. Being a "scout rifle" I, of course ordered the Leopold 2.5 X long eye relief scope for it. It seemed like the right place to start. I was imagining that, based on my location in the US, 250-300 yards (ish) would be the long side of the range for the thing this would be OK. The pic rail mounted forward of the action precluded the use of a T2 and a 3x magnifier. The rear sight is removable so that I could mount a 1X4 scope like SLG mentioned. If anyone has specific optic suggestions, I am all ears.

It is going to the 100 yard range next week and we will see how it shoots. Will post the results up then.

[TGS]

Interesting thread.

1) For a rifle, you can not beat the speed of an Enfield bolt action. Lever guns need not even be considered if speed is a requirement for a rifle.

2) A 12ga pump is probably a more versatile and effective weapon unless you're talking 100+ yards.

3) Think outside the box. I'd invest in building modern 16" revolver carbines inspired by the Civil War era smokewagons (ex: Remington 1858). You could share the same reload as your CCW/HD revolver, or go LeMat style with a gigantic 9 round 44 Mag cylinder and a 12ga bore underneath for backup.

[HCM]

Wasn't a ban, it was a buy back.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_laws_in_Australia

It also, was not all encompassing and Australia did not have the 2nd Amendment which guarantees firearms for the people.

Either way, the US is not exactly a pushover country, this country was founded with firearms.

Australia had a mandatory buy back under penalty of arrest - kind of like calling Concentration Camp showers a Hygiene Improvement Program.

[Gray222]

Australia had a mandatory buy back under penalty of arrest - kind of like calling Concentration Camp showers a Hygiene Improvement Program.



On this point at least they are correct. Gun confiscation is not happening in the United States any time soon. But let’s suppose it did. How would it work? Australia’s program netted, at the low end, 650,000 guns, and at the high end, a million. That was approximately a fifth to a third of Australian firearms. There are about as many guns in America as there are people: 310 million of both in 2009. A fifth to a third would be between 60 and 105 million guns. To achieve in America what was done in Australia, in other words, the government would have to confiscate as many as 105 million firearms.

http://thefederalist.com/2015/06/25/the-australia-gun-control-fallacy/

Do not know how accurate the info is, but I doubt there are tens of thousand of "illegal gun" owning Australians in jail because they did not sell their guns back.

Either way, its all a bunch of none-sense, the moment something like that is signed into law here by anyone is the first day of the second American civil war.

[HCM]

Good afternoon all,

I am new to this forum as a member but I wanted to jump in here. A composite stocked, blue Ruger GSR in .380 just became mine a couple of weeks ago. This one...http://www.ruger.com/products/gunsiteScoutRifle/specSheets/6830_order.html

It was not something that I was looking for as I have an 870 that would be used to fill the role that LSP972 is talking about. From a defensive standpoint, I think the 870 has a lot going for it. The pump action is fast and the 12g terminal ballistics are proven. On the other hand the effective range is less than a .308 and it is not as fast to reload to capacity as a DBM rifle. But, the deal on this rifle was just too good to pass up. As others have mentioned, the laminated stock models feel really clunky. The composite stocked version is not like that at all. The rifle is stunningly light but feels solid. While the action of the bolt is not the smoothest, I am really pleased with trigger. It is very clean and has no over travel. Also as others have mentioned, Mag Pull makes an AI pattern mag that works in the GSR at a much lower price point that the OEM mags.

I am a neophyte when it come to bolt guns so I am figuring the set up as I go along. Being a "scout rifle" I, of course ordered the Leopold 2.5 X long eye relief scope for it. It seemed like the right place to start. I was imagining that, based on my location in the US, 250-300 yards (ish) would be the long side of the range for the thing this would be OK. The pic rail mounted forward of the action precluded the use of a T2 and a 3x magnifier. The rear sight is removable so that I could mount a 1X4 scope like SLG mentioned. If anyone has specific optic suggestions, I am all ears.

It is going to the 100 yard range next week and we will see how it shoots. Will post the results up then.

Any of the quality 1-4 or 1-6 LPV scopes popular for AR's. Depends on 1) Budget 2) do you need an illuminated reticle ? 3) do you need a True 1X or will 1.25 or 1.5 be sufficient? I recently swapped out my 2.75X Burris Scout scope for a 2-7X Leupold VX Firedot.

[TGS]

To add to my earlier post, I already have a few Swiss K31s and a Swiss 96/11 that I turned into a Scout rifle.

I'd probably just roll with those until I got my tactical revolver carbine business up and running.

[HCM]

http://thefederalist.com/2015/06/25/the-australia-gun-control-fallacy/

Do not know how accurate the info is, but I doubt there are tens of thousand of "illegal gun" owning Australians in jail because they did not sell their guns back.

There was a high compliance rate because the guns banned were registered and those with legal, registered guns were "law abiding" people who believed in the commonwealth ideals of "peace , order, and good government". The high non compliance rates we are seeing in NY and CT are because long guns and magazines were not registered before hand, leaving attrition as the only enforcement strategy. Plus Americans are ... different.

Either way, its all a bunch of none-sense, the moment something like that is signed into law here by anyone is the first day of the second American civil war. I agree

[Lester Polfus]

3) do you need a True 1X or will 1.25 or 1.5 be sufficient?

FWIW, I've found my 1.5x to be fine, shooting at bad breath distance with both eyes open.

[okie john]

… "that" being the coronation of The HildeBeast and her following through on her stated intention to abrogate the Second Amendment. I don't think there's any doubt she will do it. The question is, how far will she go?

For purposes of discussion in this thread, I'm asking about a suitable rifle/carbine. To keep it as uncluttered as possible, let's say that ALL self-actuated actions will be contraband, leaving us with bolt, pump, and lever guns as the only legal-to-possess variations.

What I'm trying to decide is what to get in preparation for such a catastrophe: a bolt or lever? Pumps are a distant third, due, IMO, to the very few examples available.

From my perspective, the lever gun brings a bit more capacity, more-rapid repeat shots, and the ability to be topped off without taking the piece out of action, to the table. The problem is, I have next to zero experience with them; I've never owned one, and can count on my fingers the times I have handled/fired one. From that very limited experience, they seem to me to be rather finicky and not nearly as dependable as a Mauser-type bolt action.

OTOH, that bolt gun isn't exactly the best thing to deal with multiple opponents at relatively close ranges with. And that is my primary concern… dealing with looters, brigands, marauders, whatever term you apply to those intent on relieving you of your hard-won assets.

A Scout-type rifle: short, with a low-power forward mounted scope, detachable magazines with perhaps an extra on the gun, a'la the Steyr: seems the best option in a bolt gun. But we're talking serious dollars to get a properly set-up one of those… dollars that might be better spent on other preparations. And no matter how tricked-out it may be, it won't have the continuity of fire of a working lever action.

So what I'm asking here is… which would you choose, why, and what specific example.

Please, let's confine this discussion to the hardware and application of same. This is not the place for any "from my cold, dead hands!" and other anti-authority flights of fancy. And with that statement, please do not think I'm against freedom, etc. Its just that I know such attitudes, in any but a total societal collapse, will have but one unhappy ending.

So, let's hear your thoughts. This has been floating around in the back of my mind for a few months, now. All the recent lever gun threads have pushed it to the front. And I deliberately did not delve into caliber considerations. That's an entirely separate discussion for later. Mention it if you want; it certainly has relevance.


You'd be surprised how fast you can learn to run a bolt gun once you get used to it.

I'd get a stainless 308 or 30/06 in a synthetic stock with a 20-22" barrel. For sights, I'd go with a low-powered variable or a fixed 4x in a cheap, common ring-and-base system. If military calibers are outlawed, make that 7-08 and 270 Winchester, and don't go any shorter than 22" on the 270 barrel.

I prefer a claw extractor and a fixed ejector if I can get them. I'd avoid anything that needs much custom work to reach your end state because it could make field-expedient repairs tougher to execute under a gun-hostile regime. Think of things with easy-to-find parts and buy spare ejectors, extractors, springs, etc., and learn how to replace them yourself.

Model 70 Winchester or Model 77 Ruger would be at the top of my list, followed by Remington, Sako, Tikka, and/or Howa. I'd avoid a surplus Mauser/Springfield/Enfield, as they're starting to get old, but that's probably a minority opinion.

I'd consider a DBM, but only if you can get a boatload of them since it's easy to lose them. It wouldn't hurt to have iron sights, and I'd have several back-up optics already zeroed in rings.


Okie John

[Trooper224]

I have a safe full of firearms of all different types. Next to that is a room full of swords and knives. No matter how far down the dystopian highway we go, I'm covered. :)

[Lester Polfus]

I have a safe full of firearms of all different types. Next to that is a room full of swords and knives. No matter how far down the dystopian highway we go, I'm covered. :)

This year I learned to shoot a traditional bow. That's one with no wheels or sights or stuff, but it does have fiberglass.

Next year I'm learning how to make bows out of just wood, no fiberglass, and planting Osage trees.

I'm doing this because it's fun, and my wife and I like traditional and primitive living skills, but has occurred to me that all of my hobbies are dystopian novelists wet dream...

[Glenn E. Meyer]

The Australians banned pumped shotguns (mandatory buy back) and now are banning (or attempting to - haven't followed) the importation of lever actions shotguns. These were being built for their market.
"
I recall two things about their ban:

1. They made an attempt to defend guns on sport. Each Australian male is supposed to have a sport. So the gun guys said that you can't take away our sport. Didn't work. Lesson: Modern Sporting Rifle usage is a useless whine from the gun press and NSSF. The 2nd Amend. is not for sport. In fact, the Australian PM after Sandy Hook was blathering that he was glad Australia didn't have a BOR as he didn't have pesky courts to contend with.

2. Some Australians said they didn't mind that they turned in the semis, pumps and handguns as now they could get a spiffy bolt action new gun. Blah.

Bows and arrows - deadly of course. However, unless you are Ollie from Arrow (who can shoot an RPG out of the air after it is fired at him at close range) - I'll pass on it for SD. In San Antonio, a guy saw his car being stolen. He ran out with his hunting bow and was promptly shot DRT.

[Lester Polfus]

Bows and arrows - deadly of course. However, unless you are Ollie from Arrow (who can shoot an RPG out of the air after it is fired at him at close range) - I'll pass on it for SD. In San Antonio, a guy saw his car being stolen. He ran out with his hunting bow and was promptly shot DRT.

I guess I forgot the tongue in cheek smilie...

[LSP972]

You'd be surprised how fast you can learn to run a bolt gun once you get used to it.

I'd get a stainless 308 or 30/06 in a synthetic stock with a 20-22" barrel. For sights, I'd go with a low-powered variable or a fixed 4x in a cheap, common ring-and-base system. If military calibers are outlawed, make that 7-08 and 270 Winchester, and don't go any shorter than 22" on the 270 barrel.

I prefer a claw extractor and a fixed ejector if I can get them. I'd avoid anything that needs much custom work to reach your end state because it could make field-expedient repairs tougher to execute under a gun-hostile regime. Think of things with easy-to-find parts and buy spare ejectors, extractors, springs, etc., and learn how to replace them yourself.

Model 70 Winchester or Model 77 Ruger would be at the top of my list, followed by Remington, Sako, Tikka, and/or Howa. I'd avoid a surplus Mauser/Springfield/Enfield, as they're starting to get old, but that's probably a minority opinion.

I'd consider a DBM, but only if you can get a boatload of them since it's easy to lose them. It wouldn't hurt to have iron sights, and I'd have several back-up optics already zeroed in rings.


Okie John

I thought this had gone completely off the rails. You saved it; thanks.;)

Good info, there (and the few posts suggesting a lever gun as well). Of course, there are so many variables involved here, I suppose I was "asking for the moon". And I should have thought about "military calibers" being potentially proscribed; an excellent point.

.

[LSP972]

2) A 12ga pump is probably a more versatile and effective weapon unless you're talking 100+ yards.



The more I think about this, the more I think you're right. My old 870 throws amazingly tight patterns with Federal Flite Control OOB, and prints respectable 100 yard groups with Federal F127RS bear balls; both of which I have a good supply of.

And I can "run" an 870 in my sleep.

Hmmmmm…


.

[Glenn E. Meyer]

I guess I forgot the tongue in cheek smilie...

Me too. I really don't think we will see a nation wide ban but like I said - states will do it. Don't count on SCOTUS.

[okie john]

Glad to help, but I was actually channeling Jeff Cooper. He wrote a lot about this kind of scenario without actually calling it that, both when he wrote about the Scout rifle and when he wrote about other hunting rifles. It doesn't take long to re-read Jeff Cooper's Commentaries, plus it's pretty enjoyable, and a lot of what's in there bears pretty directly on the situation you're talking about here.

Today, most folks focus on one or two of the Scout's particulars, but once you read his more informal writing about it, you see that the Scout's only non-negotiable qualities were that it had to be short and light, with peep sights and a good trigger, and that it could NOT be a 223. Pretty much everything else was open to interpretation.


Okie John

[LSP972]

Next to that is a room full of swords and knives. No matter how far down the dystopian highway we go, I'm covered. :)

LOL. #2 grandson has been after me to get us a couple of swords ever since Michonne showed up on TWD…:D

.

[Lester Polfus]

Glad to help, but I was actually channeling Jeff Cooper. He wrote a lot about this kind of scenario without actually calling it that, both when he wrote about the Scout rifle and when he wrote about other hunting rifles. It doesn't take long to re-read Jeff Cooper's Commentaries, plus it's pretty enjoyable, and a lot of what's in there bears pretty directly on the situation you're talking about here.

Today, most folks focus on one or two of the Scout's particulars, but once you read his more informal writing about it, you see that the Scout's only non-negotiable qualities were that it had to be short and light, with peep sights and a good trigger, and that it could NOT be a 223. Pretty much everything else was open to interpretation.


Okie John

Exactly. I think the point of the whole thing was that it was supposed to be a light, handy, general purpose rifle, that could be used for anything, while perhaps not being perfect for any one particular task.

We tend to make and use very specialized firearms these days.

[Glenn E. Meyer]

What about that guy in the NYC Apple store waving a samurai sword? Or remember the guy with a sword who withstood pepper spray and bean bags? He was taken down with a fire hose and long extendable ladder.

If you get a sword, get two armless zombies for friends.

I've been tempted a pistol caliber level action.

[LSP972]

Glad to help, but I was actually channeling Jeff Cooper. He wrote a lot about this kind of scenario without actually calling it that, both when he wrote about the Scout rifle and when he wrote about other hunting rifles. It doesn't take long to re-read Jeff Cooper's Commentaries, plus it's pretty enjoyable, and a lot of what's in there bears pretty directly on the situation you're talking about here.


To my knowledge, I have read everything he's ever written, book-wise; got most of it in hardback. I've read much of his other work as well. His Scout commentaries have made me fascinated with the concept for quite some time.

Which is why I'll probably get one of these; to play with, if nothing else.

http://www.ruger.com/products/americanRifleRanch/models.html

.

[PNWTO]

1) For a rifle, you can not beat the speed of an Enfield bolt action. Lever guns need not even be considered if speed is a requirement for a rifle.


.

I know nothing of the engineering required, but would the straight-pull action as seen in the K31 be reliable/durable/enough?

[Lester Polfus]

To my knowledge, I have read everything he's ever written, book-wise; got most of it in hardback. I've read much of his other work as well. His Scout commentaries have made me fascinated with the concept for quite some time.

Which is why I'll probably get one of these; to play with, if nothing else.

http://www.ruger.com/products/americanRifleRanch/models.html

.

A buddy of mine has a couple of those. 6lbs is hard to beat.

When I pick one up, I think "If Glock made a bolt action rifle, it would look like this."

My friend's examples have been quite accurate.

Is anybody making bigger mags for them?

[PNWTO]

Which is why I'll probably get one of these; to play with, if nothing else.

http://www.ruger.com/products/americanRifleRanch/models.html

.

In the coming year I will definitely be picking one of these up in .300 Blactical. Low power variable and I'll screw in some pic rails for a light, should be a great little package.

[LSP972]

What about that guy in the NYC Apple store waving a samurai sword?

In 1987, I and my NOPD partner worked an armed robbery of a donut shop in New Orleans East. The weapon was a genuine Japanese katana from the 18th century. We ran the dude down several blocks away, and my 870 convinced him he was over-matched and had better give it up. He had "borrowed" the sword from his collector uncle.

Since nobody could remember a sword being used in an armed robbery… ever… the guy was somewhat of a celebrity in Central Lockup after we booked him.

At least, he was until the next batch of Mardi Gras drag queens was hauled in and dumped by the LSP crew working the French Quarter.:cool:

.

[okie john]

In 1987, I and my NOPD partner worked an armed robbery of a donut shop in New Orleans East. The weapon was a genuine Japanese katana from the 18th century. We ran the dude down several blocks away, and my 870 convinced him he was over-matched and had better give it up. He had "borrowed" the sword from his collector uncle.

Since nobody could remember a sword being used in an armed robbery… ever… the guy was somewhat of a celebrity in Central Lockup after we booked him.

At least, he was until the next batch of Mardi Gras drag queens was hauled in and dumped by the LSP crew working the French Quarter.:cool:

.

I'd bet that swords were used in quite a few criminal acts in New Orleans back before the Civil War.


Okie John

[The Apprentice]

I'll play depending on laws I would prefer ar-15 bolt action upper set up the same way mine is now posibly with some stock modifications to meet what ever silly restictions they come up with and the heighest capacity mags that are legal. In a no detachable mag situation swiss k-31 cut to the shortest legal barrel length and lightend as much as possible with a red dot mounted in front of the action so that strip clips could still be used. Also a few 80% finished lowers that the government doesnt need to know about.

[Dagga Boy]

I keep a pretty good supply of manually operated firearms (the revolver thing has been over the top lately). The main reason is to always have the ability to work in a restrictive environment and with politically correct weapons. While I do not really see a nationwide ban of everything I can easily see many local jurisdictations and states playing with local ordinances. I watched "common sense gun laws" in California go from anything goes to practically nothing is really legal in some places in California in 30 years. That is not a lot of time and politics are getting worse, not better, as is the SCOTUS. While I cannot really see all of Texas going full stupid, I could easily see Austin, Dallas and Houston or San Antonio try to pull a Los Angeles or San Francisco style local ban. What these do is make travel and movement tough. I have always loved both pum shotguns and Lever actions as things people do not get excited about, but are very viable for typical criminal encounters. In California, my staged "going outside" long guns were an 870 and a .45-70 lever gun. I had a lot of semi autos....enough to get a special visit from the overlords. They were for the times when you call 911 and nobody is coming.
Being familiar with the system from the inside....it is not remotely fair and justice is a word. For those who thinks that shooting a 15 year old burgler with a suppressed SBR with an IR laser while wearing a plate carrier and NVD's is not going to raise an eyebrow....good luck with that. This has been more of a thing on other forums.
I forsee many areas been very Britain or Australia like within the US in the next two decades. Having the ability to operate guns in those areas is a good skill. My 45-70 used to ride a lot of miles with me traveling between areas with massively varying laws regarding firearms, and in an area where there was great potential of dealing with state LEO's who were notoriously not good with guns. A short lever gun is one of those things that does not raise eyebrows as being "nefarious" to those folks who form assumptions based on what guns look like....which is an epidemic in a world demanding safe spaces.

Oh yea......I have a very expensive completion cutting Katana in case it all goes bad and I need to go Connor McLeod with my gamer sword....;)

[TGS]

I'll play depending on laws I would prefer ar-15 bolt action upper set up the same way mine is now posibly with some stock modifications to meet what ever silly restictions they come up with and the heighest capacity mags that are legal. In a no detachable mag situation swiss k-31 cut to the shortest legal barrel length and lightend as much as possible with a red dot mounted in front of the action so that strip clips could still be used. Also a few 80% finished lowers that the government doesnt need to know about.

The K31 has a DBM.

[Kyle Reese]

The K31 has a DBM.

What a magnificent beast the K31 is.

[LSP972]

Also a few 80% finished lowers that the government doesnt need to know about.

They know now.

.

[TGS]

They know now.

.

Yeah.

I always die a little inside when I see people brag about their 80% lowers that the government doesn't know about.

Well, now I and all my little fellow stormtroopers on our black helicopters know.

Gotta' love social media. Best turn key intelligence tool ever.

[Sigfan26]

… "that" being the coronation of The HildeBeast and her following through on her stated intention to abrogate the Second Amendment. I don't think there's any doubt she will do it. The question is, how far will she go?

For purposes of discussion in this thread, I'm asking about a suitable rifle/carbine. To keep it as uncluttered as possible, let's say that ALL self-actuated actions will be contraband, leaving us with bolt, pump, and lever guns as the only legal-to-possess variations.

What I'm trying to decide is what to get in preparation for such a catastrophe: a bolt or lever? Pumps are a distant third, due, IMO, to the very few examples available.

From my perspective, the lever gun brings a bit more capacity, more-rapid repeat shots, and the ability to be topped off without taking the piece out of action, to the table. The problem is, I have next to zero experience with them; I've never owned one, and can count on my fingers the times I have handled/fired one. From that very limited experience, they seem to me to be rather finicky and not nearly as dependable as a Mauser-type bolt action.

OTOH, that bolt gun isn't exactly the best thing to deal with multiple opponents at relatively close ranges with. And that is my primary concern… dealing with looters, brigands, marauders, whatever term you apply to those intent on relieving you of your hard-won assets.

A Scout-type rifle: short, with a low-power forward mounted scope, detachable magazines with perhaps an extra on the gun, a'la the Steyr: seems the best option in a bolt gun. But we're talking serious dollars to get a properly set-up one of those… dollars that might be better spent on other preparations. And no matter how tricked-out it may be, it won't have the continuity of fire of a working lever action.

So what I'm asking here is… which would you choose, why, and what specific example.

Please, let's confine this discussion to the hardware and application of same. This is not the place for any "from my cold, dead hands!" and other anti-authority flights of fancy. And with that statement, please do not think I'm against freedom, etc. Its just that I know such attitudes, in any but a total societal collapse, will have but one unhappy ending.

So, let's hear your thoughts. This has been floating around in the back of my mind for a few months, now. All the recent lever gun threads have pushed it to the front. And I deliberately did not delve into caliber considerations. That's an entirely separate discussion for later. Mention it if you want; it certainly has relevance.

.

So... This thought experiment went through my head a couple months ago. And I went a little overboard. In addition to the 3 Enfield Rifles I already had (Jungle Carbine included), I added a Ruger Gunsite Scout (stainless/walnut combo from lipsey's), a Marlin 336y 30-30, Marlin 1895 45-70, Marlin 1894 44 magnum, S&W 69 44 mag, S&W 329PD 44 mag, ad a Charter Arms Bulldog Classic 44 special.

Of the bunch, both the Ruger and the charter arms have required warranty repair in less than 100 rounds (both companies were super responsive and easy to deal with, though).

If I had to pick a battery, it would be as follows:
-336Y with 1-4 or 1-6 optic
- 1894 44magnum with Aimpoint micro
- S&W 329PD

Also, with wadcutters, a Marlin 1894 20" 44 magnum holds 11 full power magnums, and 12 specials.

[TGS]

So... This thought experiment went through my head a couple months ago. And I went a little overboard.

Pistol-Forum.com is the best. I love you guys.

[Sigfan26]

Pistol-Forum.com is the best. I love you guys.
It really is!

[LSP552]

I'm a bolt gun guy at heart anyway. I looked hard at the Ruger Scout but decided it really didn't do anything that a regular stainless .308 with 22" tube and low power variable scope couldn't as a GP politically correct rifle. I'd opt for a Ruger Hawkeye for the simple open trigger design and integral scope bases.

I think the scout concept becomes a moot point with modern optics.

What I would really like is a Ruger Hawkeye with METAL box mag and flash hider in a light weight stock with the normal mounts.

Nothing wrong with a good lever action either.

[Sigfan26]

I'm a bolt gun guy at heart anyway. I looked hard at the Ruger Scout but decided it really didn't do anything that a regular stainless .308 with 22" tube and low power variable scope couldn't as a GP politically correct rifle. I'd opt for a Ruger Hawkeye for the simple open trigger design and integral scope bases.

I think the scout concept becomes a moot point with modern optics.

What I would really like is a Ruger Hawkeye with METAL box mag and flash hider in a light weight stock with the normal mounts.

Nothing wrong with a good lever action either.

The polymer mags are nicer that the metal ones (I've got 2 of each). Recoil description on the scout: I enjoy shooting my 1895 Guide Gun with full power 430 grain hard cast at 3,000 foot pounds more than I enjoy shooting the Scout with 150gr 308.

[Trooper224]

This year I learned to shoot a traditional bow. That's one with no wheels or sights or stuff, but it does have fiberglass.

Is there any other kind, really?

[GJM]

Bare bones, three guns to hold you over (excluding shotguns).

CZ 7.62x39 bolt, taking those nifty five round magazines. Open sights and an Aimpoint.

Model 70 .308, cut for stripper clips, aperture sights and an Aimpoint.

Marlin Guide Gun .45-70. Aperture sights and an Aimpoint.

[HCM]

Bare bones, three guns to hold you over (excluding shotguns).

CZ 7.62x39 bolt, taking those nifty five round magazines. Open sights and an Aimpoint.

Model 70 .308, cut for stripper clips, aperture sights and an Aimpoint.

Marlin Guide Gun .45-70. Aperture sights and an Aimpoint.

I already did this back in the 1990's during the AWB and my purgatory in California, Peoples Republic of.

The only difference is I have:

CZ 7.62x39 bolt, taking those EXPENSIVE five round magazines. Open sights and an Nikon 2-7X.

Steyr Scout .308 and it wears a Leupold VX-R 2-7 Firedot instead of a scout scope.

Marlin Guide Gun .45-70. XS Aperture sights and an 2.75 Scout Scope. I had an Aimpoint on this but my Presbyopia is making the dots look funny without my glasses.

[Sigfan26]

I already did this back in the 1990's during the AWB and my purgatory in California, Peoples Republic of.

The only difference is I have:

CZ 7.62x39 bolt, taking those EXPENSIVE five round magazines. Open sights and an Nikon 2-7X.

Steyr Scout .308 and it wears a Leupold VX-R 2-7 Firedot instead of a scout scope.

Marlin Guide Gun .45-70. XS Aperture sights and an 2.75 Scout Scope. I had an Aimpoint on this but my Presbyopia is making the dots look funny without my glasses.

Crap! Forgot I've got a 527 Carbine, too!

[PNWTO]

Ponderingthis for the afternoon and my first pick would still be a pump 12 with some fashion of RDS, 18-20" barrel. It has some limitations but for a 90% use gun I think it would fit me.

[imp1295]

Doesn't the standard cz pic rail place the aimpoint too high to co witness with the open sights?


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[okie john]

Bare bones, three guns to hold you over (excluding shotguns).

CZ 7.62x39 bolt, taking those nifty five round magazines. Open sights and an Aimpoint.

Model 70 .308, cut for stripper clips, aperture sights and an Aimpoint.

Marlin Guide Gun .45-70. Aperture sights and an Aimpoint.

Much wisdom here. Add a suppressed 22 and a 12-gauge and you're pretty much done.


Okie John

[TR675]

While I cannot really see all of Texas going full stupid, I could easily see Austin, Dallas and Houston or San Antonio try to pull a Los Angeles or San Francisco style local ban.

They might like to, but thankfully local jurisdictions have been preempted on this issue for a while now.

[JAD]

To add to my earlier post, I already have a few Swiss K31s and a Swiss 96/11 that I turned into a Scout rifle.

http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/11/30/f501a8f4cc8c8714247a47db8f5a93e5.jpg

You don't say?

[PNWTO]

http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/11/30/f501a8f4cc8c8714247a47db8f5a93e5.jpg

You don't say?

Dude.........

[Dagga Boy]

They might like to, but thankfully local jurisdictions have been preempted on this issue for a while now.

Funny....used to be that way in California too. Trust me, I moved to Texas for a reason. With that said, I see the same elements that ruined California slowly using the exact same tactics in Texas. As much as I shudder at the thought....8 years of Hilary and a ton of pressure, and monetary incentives with very influential Democrats in Texas's major cities could cause some real havoc.

[elsquid]

A lot of money is spent on EBRs each year, and there are a fair number of companies in the market place. If semiautos are banned, there will still be demand for legal defensive rifles and those companies will be forced to adapt. In the short term, I'd expect existing designs to be adapted to straight pull bolt action. These rifles exist today in the UK:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ghITF5H3u1Y


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LE4FigimH9g

In the years following, I'd expect new designs from several manufacturers.

Troy currently has a pump action sort-of-AR. Two sizes: 223/300BLK and 308.

http://www.budsgunshop.com/catalog/advanced_search_result.php?keywords=troy+par


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OYRRzus9wto

So, if a complete ban were to happen, I'd probably pick up a PAR for the short term ( I already have a Steyr Scout, various leverguns and pump shotguns ) and wait to see what else pops up in the market place.

-- Michael

[45dotACP]

My biggest concern will be the complete and total drought of ammo that I forsee in 2016...the 2012 drought only cleared up a few months ago and Obama never got shit done. Bring out Hilary and I'm guessing it'll be 2020 before I can buy powder and primers again.

Hope the ammo companies are ready.

Funny sidenote: My hospital received a patient who was killed with a katana....he wasn't DRT, but he never made it to the OR. You can make a real mess of someone with a sword...

Sent from my VS876 using Tapatalk

[peterb]

Ponderingthis for the afternoon and my first pick would still be a pump 12 with some fashion of RDS, 18-20" barrel. It has some limitations but for a 90% use gun I think it would fit me.

I've noticed a big difference in POI with different brands of slugs with my 870 -- much more than I see with different rifle loads. Have other folks seen the same thing or is it just my gun being fussy?

[SteveB]

Short bolt rifles; one in .308, one in 7.62X39:

4724

4725

[Josh Runkle]

I think a more likely topic is the one that Hillary has already stated she has interest in: leaving your guns alone and going after limiting ammo possession.

[LSP972]

Guess again.

http://dailycaller.com/2015/10/16/clinton-announces-massive-gun-control-plan/

Pay particular attention to the parts about "ban some guns, restrict possession of others", and "in some cases without Congressional approval".

Some of you guys need to get your heads out of the sand.

Many thanks for the thoughtful, educational responses; you've given me much to think about.

.

[Gray222]

Guess again.

http://dailycaller.com/2015/10/16/clinton-announces-massive-gun-control-plan/

Pay particular attention to the parts about "ban some guns, restrict possession of others", and "in some cases without Congressional approval".

Some of you guys need to get your heads out of the sand.

Many thanks for the thoughtful, educational responses; you've given me much to think about.

.

She can say anything she wants, she can say she will mandate everyone who owns a gun has be tattooed, does not mean itll happen.

Like sparklefart talking about climate change being the reason terrorism is what it is, all just talk.

As I stated previously, the moment something even remotely close to what they are suggestioning, there will be a massive civil uprising.

[Beat Trash]

My biggest concern will be the complete and total drought of ammo that I forsee in 2016...the 2012 drought only cleared up a few months ago and Obama never got shit done. Bring out Hilary and I'm guessing it'll be 2020 before I can buy powder and primers again.

Hope the ammo companies are ready.

Funny sidenote: My hospital received a patient who was killed with a katana....he wasn't DRT, but he never made it to the OR. You can make a real mess of someone with a sword...

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That is why it would be a good idea to buy ammo now. . .

[Chuck Whitlock]

Let's cross that bridge, over the red river, when and if we get to it, philosophically speaking.

As for rifles, ruger gunsite scout rifle - http://www.ruger.com/products/gunsiteScoutRifle/models.html - seems to fit the bill for a lot of things and is essentially legal everywhere.



As to LSP's OP - I would look at the Ruger Gunsite Scout with the synthetic stock and a 1-4 or 1-6 low power variable scope with illuminated reticle. The laminate version is ok but it is heavy for a scout and handles like a 2x4. The synthetic stock version feels like a different gun.




And regarding the scope, I was already "set" on a 1.5/2X as the low power end, for the reason you gave.

As for the Ruger offering, I've looked at it. Decent piece, but a bit heavy as compared to their American Ranch offering. But Christ, the prices they are asking for extra magazines! I was quoted $75 for the Scout magazine.

.

Being sans a bolt gun right now, My plan is the Ruger GSR in .308. I like the looks of the laminated stock, but might have to check out the synthetic version.

First thing I'd do is mount this:

http://www.xssights.com/Detail.aspx?PROD=993608&CAT=8286

And then go with Conventional low powered variable in QD rings.......my current thinking is the 1.5-6x Burris MTAC (thinking about the 1-4x version on the AR):

http://www.burrisoptics.com/scopes/mtac-riflescopes-series/mtac-riflescope-1.5-6x42mm

An offset light mount would be pretty simple on the forward part of the rail.

The metal mags are pricey, but the poly ones aren't too bad:

http://shopruger.com/Gunsite-Scout/products/2140/

This will also be my GP hunting rifle. I can't imagine not being able to take any game in my AO with this setup.

[HCM]

Guess again.

http://dailycaller.com/2015/10/16/clinton-announces-massive-gun-control-plan/

Pay particular attention to the parts about "ban some guns, restrict possession of others", and "in some cases without Congressional approval".

Some of you guys need to get your heads out of the sand.

Many thanks for the thoughtful, educational responses; you've given me much to think about.

.

Just because she says it doesn't mean she can actually do most of those things. If the president could do all that Obama would have already done it. That is assuming she even gets elected. She was "a sure thing" back in 2008 too,

[The Apprentice]

Yeah.

I always die a little inside when I see people brag about their 80% lowers that the government doesn't know about.

Well, now I and all my little fellow stormtroopers on our black helicopters know.

Gotta' love social media. Best turn key intelligence tool ever.

What do they know? Never did I say what I have or what I dont just what I would like in a hypothetical mental exercize. Besides its not what you know its what you can prove.

[David S.]

The moment something even remotely close to what they are suggestioning, there will be a massive civil uprising.

This may be a topic for another thread, but what makes you think that?

Based on precedents set by governments (state or federal) enacting bans within the last 100+ years, I don't see any "massive civil uprisings" occurring. Certainly not enough resistance to cause the government to reverse it's decision.

I would love to think otherwise, but with respect, I think you are being more than a little optimistic.

Cheers,
David

[David S.]

Interesting thread, btw.

[Trooper224]

I don't care for going down the "what if" rabbit hole, but I'll play along.

I don't see massive civil unrest as ever being a realistic scenario in 21st century USA. People are too addicted to their Starbuck's and gadgets to ever risk it all on civil disobedience on a large meaningful scale. In short, 'murica has become too pussified. IMHO, the most realistic scenario is simple non-compliance. No real hostilities, ala Lexington and Concord stuff, but people simply not turning their stuff in when they're told to. The government with then be faced with a "WTF do we do now?" scenario.

[Gray222]

While there may be a serious non-compliance, there will be plenty of angry people who will not give up their firearms. What happens when the gov starts banging on doors? Requiring mandatory registration of owners and firearms? Won't be the first time in history this happens or is attempted except there has never been a nation like the US in history. What happens then? I am thinking our second civil war, only this time the South might win.

[Cookie Monster]

While there may be a serious non-compliance, there will be plenty of angry people who will not give up their firearms. What happens when the gov starts banging on doors? Requiring mandatory registration of owners and firearms? Won't be the first time in history this happens or is attempted except there has never been a nation like the US in history. What happens then? I am thinking our second civil war, only this time the South might win.

We'll agree to disagree, but I don't believe we have the hearts and minds for it. Too many folks living paycheck to paycheck, too many folks don't care enough for anything, too many folks watching 40 hours of TV a week, etc.

On the scenario, I'll have to agree with Col. Cooper and think a .357 lever gun is a good social tool. I am stocking another AR and standard capacity magazines.

[HCM]

While there may be a serious non-compliance, there will be plenty of angry people who will not give up their firearms. What happens when the gov starts banging on doors? Requiring mandatory registration of owners and firearms? Won't be the first time in history this happens or is attempted except there has never been a nation like the US in history. What happens then? I am thinking our second civil war, only this time the South might win.

I agree with serious non- compliance but I doubt the GOV will start banging on doors. Too many issues. It will be an enforcement by attrition strategy.

[Gray222]

I agree with serious non- compliance but I doubt the GOV will start banging on doors. Too many issues. It will be an enforcement by attrition strategy.

That cannot happen, legally speaking, as the 2nd Amendment requires the ability to buy the firearm, hence why its all fantasy.

[Sigfan26]

That cannot happen, legally speaking, as the 2nd Amendment requires the ability to buy the firearm, hence why its all fantasy.

Dude, it's a thought experiment. It's for FUN. It helps folks think OUTSIDE the box. And, it allows excuses to buy guns that are FUN. Stop pissing on the campfire.

[LtDave]

The K31 has a DBM.

Beat me to it...

[Malamute]

Back on topic of actual guns,...

If self loading rifles became contraband, I'd guess that there will suddenly be large numbers of manually operated AR type rifles. There are already simple conversions of existing guns to straight pull bolt actions. Remove the gas tube, plug the hole in the gas block, and machine a slot in one side or the other of the upper receiver for the operating handle to thread into the bolt carrier. It wouldnt cost much to have a spare upper receiver and bolt carrier around to try it out. At the very least, it would beat not being able to take your gun out in public to shoot.

Like this,

http://www.whiteoakarmament.com/xcart/images/D/d-17733-01.jpg

[JAD]

.
On the scenario, I'll have to agree with Col. Cooper and think a .357 lever gun .

Afaicr Cooper recognized the Brooklyn Special (.30-30) and the Kansas City Carbine (.44 Mag), after whence the students who proposed them came.

[SMD]

Cooper, in a 1993 Guns and Ammo Annual article entitled Practical Defensive Carbines, writes " We now refer to the 30-30 lever-action carbine as the "Brooklyn Special" and we strongly recommend it to those police departments that have been cozened into purchases of the M16 and its clones." He goes on to say, "A further development of this idea is found in the lever-action carbines made for pistol cartridges... I have a client in Kansas City who has been using a piece of this sort for several years in police work, and he swears by it. Consequently we now refer to the pistol-carbines as "Kansas City Specials."

I bought a Marlin 336 in 30-30 shortly after I read Cooper's article in '93. The Marlin remains an ideal general purpose rifle for my needs and it's what I would chose in the scenario the OP laid out.

[frozentundra]

If this sort of thing had enough support to actually happen, I would imagine things like detachable box mags, threaded barrels/attachments, pistol grips and magazine extensions could be targeted on all action types. Even bolt guns. These people have no limit to their idiotic ambition.

In my State the Democrats just tried to outdo California. The proposed bill would have had no grandfather provision. Possession=felony. No exceptions.
http://mediatrackers.org/wisconsin/2015/11/04/wisconsin-democrats-release-draft-proposed-gun-ban

These people just hate features on guns. Because: reasons.

A semiautomatic rifle that has the capacity to accept a detachable magazine and that has any of the following:

A pistol grip that protrudes beneath the action of the weapon.
A folding, telescoping, or thumbhole stock.
A 2nd handgrip or protruding grip that can be held by the nontrigger hand.
A bayonet mount.
A flash suppressor, muzzle brake, or muzzle compensator or a threaded barrel capable of accepting a flash suppressor, muzzle brake, or muzzle compensator.
A grenade launcher.

A semiautomatic shotgun that has any of the following:

A folding, telescoping, or thumbhole stock.
A 2nd handgrip or protruding grip that can be held by the nontrigger hand.
A fixed magazine capacity in excess of 7 rounds.

A semiautomatic pistol that has the capacity to accept a detachable magazine and that has any of the following:

a. A folding, telescoping, or thumbhole stock.
b. A 2nd handgrip or protruding grip that can be held by the nontrigger hand.
c. The capacity to accept an ammunition magazine that attaches to the pistol outside of the pistol grip.
d. A threaded barrel capable of accepting a barrel extender, flash suppressor, forward handgrip, or silencer.
e. A shroud that is attached to, or partially or completely encircles, the barrel, and that permits the user to hold the firearm with the nontrigger hand without being burned.
f. A manufactured weight of at least 50 ounces when the pistol is unloaded.

The red highlighted line c alone would have criminalized most decent centerfire pistols.

Back on topic.

I would also bet on a 30-30 or 44/357 lever action rifle. Likely to fly under gun grabber radar even if they had carte blanche.

[dbateman]

If you let it get to the point that " ALL self-actuated actions will be contraband" they will be coming for your levers pumps and bolts next.

Keep your AR buy another and enough to pins, springs, barrels ect to keep em running.

[45dotACP]

I am curious to how it would affect sport shooting...like seeing the 3 gun shotgun loading techniques applied to a lever gun...

Is that even a thing? Lever gun load 2 or quad load techniques?

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[olstyn]

If this sort of thing had enough support to actually happen, I would imagine things like detachable box mags, threaded barrels/attachments, pistol grips and magazine extensions could be targeted on all action types. Even bolt guns. These people have no limit to their idiotic ambition.

In my State the Democrats just tried to outdo California. The proposed bill would have had no grandfather provision. Possession=felony. No exceptions.

It's kind of hilarious that they'd even try that in WI. That state is one of the reddest of the red, apart from the city of Madison, of course. I'm curious why you think the line you highlighted in red would criminalize most decent pistols, though. What pistols, other than things like a TEC-9, MP5K, etc, have mags that attach outside of the pistol grip? Are you interpreting that to mean that they have to fit completely flush when inserted?

[olstyn]

I am curious to how it would affect sport shooting...like seeing the 3 gun shotgun loading techniques applied to a lever gun...

Is that even a thing? Lever gun load 2 or quad load techniques?

Sent from my VS876 using Tapatalk

Maybe for people with tiny hands? I think it'd be pretty tough to hold pistol (or rifle) cartridges that way, at least as compared to shotgun shells which fit the hand better.

[Peally]

It's kind of hilarious that they'd even try that in WI. That state is one of the reddest of the red, apart from the city of Madison, of course. I'm curious why you think the line you highlighted in red would criminalize most decent pistols, though. What pistols, other than things like a TEC-9, MP5K, etc, have mags that attach outside of the pistol grip? Are you interpreting that to mean that they have to fit completely flush when inserted?

Politicians gotta do something to justify the paycheck, we get joke bills introduced from retards-in-office once in a while just like everywhere else.

Without Madison and Milwaukee the ground would bleed red. Unfortunately that's the case with just about any state, get rid of the cities and you're on the fast track to half-intelligent government ;)

[Lester Polfus]

Over on Total Protection Interactive, Southnarc has a great "PSP" on running the lever gun.

[WDW]

What a magnificent beast the K31 is.

Picked one up after reading about them here...they're just awesome rifles

[Kyle Reese]

Picked one up after reading about them here...they're just awesome rifles

They're an engineering marvel to behold. [emoji3]


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[okie john]

What do you guys think about the Ruger 77/44 and its 357 Magnum cousin?

http://www.ruger.com/products/rotaryMagazine7744/models.html

Seems like it might play a useful role with a low-powered scope. I see a LOT to like: it handles quickly, offers more precision and reach than a smoothbore, more scope-friendly than a lever gun, shoots handgun ammo, and has the same manual of arms as other bolt guns.


Okie John

[45dotACP]

What do you guys think about the Ruger 77/44 and its 357 Magnum cousin?

http://www.ruger.com/products/rotaryMagazine7744/models.html

Seems like it might play a useful role with a low-powered scope. I see a LOT to like: it handles quickly, offers more precision and reach than a smoothbore, more scope-friendly than a lever gun, shoots handgun ammo, and has the same manual of arms as other bolt guns.


Okie John
I always thought a reliable semi auto .44 mag deerfield carbine with extended mags would be the tits.

Used bowling pins as a target once with a 77/44...it blew the pins apart in fairly short order.

I really like the notion of a .44 mag rifle.

[okie john]

I really like the notion of a .44 mag rifle.

Me, too. Bolt more than lever or auto purely for familiarity, but yeah, I like it.


Okie John

[SLG]

The rotary mag has always been something I have liked in the Rugers. Even at 4 rds, I think the carbine has a lot of potential. Put a ghost ring on it, shorten the tube by 2", and I think I'd really like one.

[Lester Polfus]

What do you guys think about the Ruger 77/44 and its 357 Magnum cousin?

http://www.ruger.com/products/rotaryMagazine7744/models.html

Seems like it might play a useful role with a low-powered scope. I see a LOT to like: it handles quickly, offers more precision and reach than a smoothbore, more scope-friendly than a lever gun, shoots handgun ammo, and has the same manual of arms as other bolt guns.


Okie John

I've spent a fair amount of time with two of them. There's a much to like. The action is sized to the cartridge, so they are trim and compact. They are light, less than 6 pounds sans scope of I remember right. I'm a fan of the Ruger scope mounting system.

The first one I shot was stock.

The second was integrally suppressed. With a subsonic 300 grain load, you would hear the firing pin strike, then a loud "thwap" as the slug hit the backstop. I would grin every time I would do it.

The mags are little rectangular blocks, sort of like a really big 10-22 mag. They really aren't that handy for quick changes, but you could make them work.

I can afford any gun I want, but not all the guns I want, so I don't own one, but I think they are a good choice.

[SLG]

I can afford any gun I want, but not all the guns I want, so I don't own one, but I think they are a good choice.


That's a good line, and too true for most of us.

[Lester Polfus]

The rotary mag has always been something I have liked in the Rugers. Even at 4 rds, I think the carbine has a lot of potential. Put a ghost ring on it, shorten the tube by 2", and I think I'd really like one.

NECG makes a rear aperture sight that mounts on the rear scope mount. It is very solid.

http://www.newenglandcustomgun.com/gun_services/Peep_Sights.asp

The Gunsite Scout uses the same concept for it's rear sight I believe, but I don't think it's NECG. I wonder if it can be sourced seperately?

[Robinson]

I agree the NECG aperture sight is a good one -- I have one for a CZ550 paired with a sourdough-type front sight.

[dbateman]

I am curious to how it would affect sport shooting...like seeing the 3 gun shotgun loading techniques applied to a lever gun...

Is that even a thing? Lever gun load 2 or quad load techniques?

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Judging by whats happened over here, we used to shoot IPSC shotgun and rifle amongst other things. Thats the closest to three gun I have seen here.


Banning or restricting semis will kill off sports like three gun.

Hell I've been arguing with my government since the 2 of October to get a permit for a 5 shot bolt action.

[Guinnessman]

This thread has been a pleasure to read! For Christmas I have been contemplating buying a new rifle. What would you guys buy if you were a southpaw and wanted a rifle that fits into this thread?

I am also thinking of shying away from .308 since it flew off the shelves here in PA during the last drought. The 7mm08 has been looking good these days.

Thanks in advance for some enabling!

[Jason M]

The Ruger GSR is available in both right and left handed actions. .223 is a caliber option.

[deputyG23]

I think you can't separate the caliber from the action. IME, LA guns are only faster to shoot if you are using pistol ammo. At the other end, almost no LA's take real riflle cartridges. So, if you want 308/3006 type flexibility, then a good M70 will be as fast to shoot, and definitely more robust/accurate/flexible. If you are happy with the pistol stuff, then a short light LA may be the way to go. I like them all.

I also think an 870 or benelli M2 is possibly a better choice for your scenario. Never mind the benelli, it wouldn't count, but the 870 is gtg.

I have had lots of scout rifles over the years, from Cooper's original #1 style, to the Steyr, and custom ones in between. Still have a couple. Nothing wrong with any of those rifles (though they are not my first choice, see above) but I would never choose a scout scope for anything in 2016. It simply doesn't work in all sorts of conditions where a more conventional scope like a NF 1-4 or 2.5-10 works better.

My thoughts are similar to yours. My bride bought me a 30/06 Winchester M70 for my birthday the first year we were married and is my best CF rifle. Need to practice more with it and it needs sling swivels installed and a lower power variable scope.
As a result, I have standardized on 30/06 for "main" rifle use. I picked up a '70s 110 Savage from a co-worker dirt cheap and my son has claimed it for his own. A Winchester DCM Garand bought in the '80s is my "battle rifle" and would probably be one of the last semi-autos to be proscribed or banned.
A Vang-comped M590A1 pump gun I bought from the estate of one of our retirees is just amazing at 25 yards with 00 buck. Need to take a handful of ibuprofen and test a bunch of rifled slugs in it.
I could adapt to a "no semi auto" scenario with no practical issues, but philosophically, it would royally suck, to say the least.
Big Government has no damn business telling me what firearms, or most anything else for that matter, I choose to own and pay for with my hard earned money.

[Tamara]

The red highlighted line c alone would have criminalized most decent centerfire pistols.

You're misreading it. That's riffing off the original Imported Assault Weapon Ban of '89 (the Bush Ban, which survives as 922(r) compliance) language; red letter C bans handguns with magazines outside the pistol grip such as the TEC-9, SP89, SITES Spectre, Sterling MK-7.

[WDW]

A light bolt action carbine in .223 or .308 with a RDS or 1-4x vps would be my first choice. Lightweight, reliable, accurate, and PC as it gets. "Thees hers just pappy's ole der shootin rifle"

[Unobtanium]

… "that" being the coronation of The HildeBeast and her following through on her stated intention to abrogate the Second Amendment. I don't think there's any doubt she will do it. The question is, how far will she go?

For purposes of discussion in this thread, I'm asking about a suitable rifle/carbine. To keep it as uncluttered as possible, let's say that ALL self-actuated actions will be contraband, leaving us with bolt, pump, and lever guns as the only legal-to-possess variations.

What I'm trying to decide is what to get in preparation for such a catastrophe: a bolt or lever? Pumps are a distant third, due, IMO, to the very few examples available.

From my perspective, the lever gun brings a bit more capacity, more-rapid repeat shots, and the ability to be topped off without taking the piece out of action, to the table. The problem is, I have next to zero experience with them; I've never owned one, and can count on my fingers the times I have handled/fired one. From that very limited experience, they seem to me to be rather finicky and not nearly as dependable as a Mauser-type bolt action.

OTOH, that bolt gun isn't exactly the best thing to deal with multiple opponents at relatively close ranges with. And that is my primary concern… dealing with looters, brigands, marauders, whatever term you apply to those intent on relieving you of your hard-won assets.

A Scout-type rifle: short, with a low-power forward mounted scope, detachable magazines with perhaps an extra on the gun, a'la the Steyr: seems the best option in a bolt gun. But we're talking serious dollars to get a properly set-up one of those… dollars that might be better spent on other preparations. And no matter how tricked-out it may be, it won't have the continuity of fire of a working lever action.

So what I'm asking here is… which would you choose, why, and what specific example.

Please, let's confine this discussion to the hardware and application of same. This is not the place for any "from my cold, dead hands!" and other anti-authority flights of fancy. And with that statement, please do not think I'm against freedom, etc. Its just that I know such attitudes, in any but a total societal collapse, will have but one unhappy ending.

So, let's hear your thoughts. This has been floating around in the back of my mind for a few months, now. All the recent lever gun threads have pushed it to the front. And I deliberately did not delve into caliber considerations. That's an entirely separate discussion for later. Mention it if you want; it certainly has relevance.

.

I personally feel that a 14.5" M4 type with a "mini" suppressor is the happy place. It has decent range/velocity, is still maneuverable, and won't blow your ears out.

However, within the scope of what I'll claim in this thread, I feel that it would be very hard to beat a good .44 lever gun with a red-dot on it, if you live in a place like I do. If you live where there are larger game, then adjust caliber accordingly, I'm just looking at raw capacity vs. capability vs. "mission".

[LtDave]

You're misreading it. That's riffing off the original Imported Assault Weapon Ban of '89 (the Bush Ban, which survives as 922(r) compliance) language; red letter C bans handguns with magazines outside the pistol grip such as the TEC-9, SP89, SITES Spectre, Sterling MK-7.

And pretty much all pistols based on rifle actions, like AR and AK variants.