The Difference Between ~$500 & ~$1000?

[Jay585]

My question is: what is the difference between a knife that is similar, but one costs $500 and the other is $1000. Both are custom made by artist of similar skill, same steel, same length, handle material, etc.

I can't recall where I read this (I think it was regarding footwear), but someone said the difference between $100 and $300 is quality, the difference between $300 and $700 is detail. Something along those lines.

Is that the case when dealing with knives as well? If this is the case, what are we talking about regarding differences in detail?

[orionz06]

I think so much of this depends on purpose of the knife. So much also depends on the maker and the premium their time commands.



Detail matters but with all of my cheap and expensive knives I can't really see too many places with most of them where there really is room for detail. None are ornate or detailed enough, most are very plain looking and made of common materials. I have a ceramic/carbon fiber/G10 knife in front of me that is highly detailed and has an infinite room for costly error where as some expensive steel knives can have a few goofs that the maker can recover from. I have some titanium that's a little more costly than the steel counterparts and even that's not super expensive.

I'd say it's more likely name/time and repercussions of a mistake.


Don't forget that there is also a market for those who have a training system that requires the participants to purchase system approved equipment, to include knives.

[SLG]

Without knowing who made them and which models, its hard to say anything meaningful.

From a functional standpoint (it also depends exactly what that function is), a couple hundred dollars will get you as good a knife as can practically be made in 2016. Anything more is often the maker's reputation, details, as mentioned, or specific features that some people might find worth the money and others might not.

[orionz06]

Heat treating is also a science and an art. Heat treat can make or break a knife, no pun intended. Lots of the new guys out there farm this out. Nothing wrong with that but the older crowd might have their favorite steel and a wicked awesome heat treat that makes them stand out.

[voodoo_man]

Some steel is more durable or sought after than others, but that cost is fairly negligible.

It comes down to how limited the blade is and how much people are willing to pay for it because of the expertise that goes into making the blade, if you discount the very precious metal (gold/etc) that goes into it.

[UNK]

I work in an industrial environment. Machinist heat treat parts all the time. These are hard use parts that sometimes are in some pretty tough applications. Trying to make an "art" out of something that is actually a science is nothing more than marketing.

Art is when you relinquish mathematics and science from any responsibility of the outcome.

[Rich@CCC]

BrianB,
The "Art" comes form finding the treatment that gives the perfect compromise of edge retention, ease of sharpening, hardness and elasticity.

You're right. It's hard science but applied science can be an art form. Ask any sound tech.

As to the OP's question; IMHO, Once you are legitimately in the >$500 price range in knives, you are paying for a name and reputation. That is all. There is very little, other than precious metals and gems(bling) that can bring the monetary value of any knife over $500.00. That's a personal opinion and worth every penny you paid for it!

[1slow]

Demand/Supply.
Bear in mind the cost of 1st quality materials and equipment.

[Glenn E. Meyer]

If you want a fun night, watch when someone notices that they dropped their very expensive knife in the crappy land near Rock Springs, TX - it bounced out somehow from a bumpy jeep ride.

There is something about cheaper knives for outdoor utility. Just a thought.

[FLC Knives]

Interesting thread guys.
Supply and demand as well as branding have an impact on ALL products.
The product is worth what someone will pay for it.
That being said I do have an immense respect for the skill and dedication it takes to be at the top of the game.
The craftsmans time is whats in limited supply and theres less of it to be had with each passing day.

[Jay585]

So the numbers I wrote were chosen randomly.

My next question is: what would be the "typical" price point between paying for quality and paying for a name? In other words, I want a quality knife, but I know little about knives and don't want to pay for a name, what do I look for?

[SLG]

So the numbers I wrote were chosen randomly.

My next question is: what would be the "typical" price point between paying for quality and paying for a name? In other words, I want a quality knife, but I know little about knives and don't want to pay for a name, what do I look for?

You have to define what you want. The line between quality and name is in a different place depending on what type of knife you need.

"...what do I look for?"

If you really know little about knives, then there isn't really anything worth looking for. Anything anyone here tells you to look for will be based on their preferences. A solid recommendation from someone who knows the makers work is a better way to go, assuming the knife meets your needs and fits you properly.

[Wondering Beard]

What SLG says is dead on.

Ask yourself first:"what do I want it for?"

[FLC Knives]

What SLG says is dead on.

Ask yourself first:"what do I want it for?"

Exactly. Form follows function.

[Mitchell, Esq.]

My question is: what is the difference between a knife that is similar, but one costs $500 and the other is $1000. Both are custom made by artist of similar skill, same steel, same length, handle material, etc.

I can't recall where I read this (I think it was regarding footwear), but someone said the difference between $100 and $300 is quality, the difference between $300 and $700 is detail. Something along those lines.

Is that the case when dealing with knives as well? If this is the case, what are we talking about regarding differences in detail?

I'm going to quote you the section on how lawyers are permitted to set fees in the State of Connecticut and I think once you see this you will understand how it applies to knifemakers:

(a) A lawyer shall not make an agreement for, charge, or collect an unreasonable fee or an unreasonable amount for expenses. The factors to be considered in determining the reasonableness of a fee include the following:
(1) The time and labor required, the novelty and difficulty of the questions involved, and the skill requisite to perform the legal service properly;
(2) The likelihood, if made known to the client, that the acceptance of the particular employment will preclude other employment by the lawyer;
(3) The fee customarily charged in the locality for similar legal services;
(4) The amount involved and the results obtained;
(5) The time limitations imposed by the client or by the circumstances;
(6) The nature and length of the professional relationship with the client;
(7) The experience, reputation, and ability of the lawyer or lawyers performing the services;
(8) Whether the fee is fixed or contingent.

CT R RPC Rule 1.5

You can see how this translates into how people set prices in almost anything.

I used to love RJ Martin Japanese style knives. Still do...

Then once upon a time, Mike Snody came on the knife making scene, and he was making knives every bit as good, but around the 2000-2003 time frame, he was commanding 1/3 to 1/2 RJ's prices for similar blades. Why?

See #7 above.

He was the new guy and therefore just didn't command the prices an older, more established guy did...and RJ didn't command the prices Phill Hartsfield knives do.

[Jay585]

"What's it for"

1) An EDC, semi-daily use knife. Cuts tape on cardboard boxes, opens envelopes, slices avocados/oranges/apples, etc.

2) An EDC SHTF knife. An centerline carried, behind the belt knife that never sees daylight except when being maitained or in use of self-defense.

3) Ornamental wall hangers (matched set of katana, wakizashi, and tanto) that could see use as a self defense weapon, a'la this dude in Argentina (http://knowledgeglue.com/man-uses-katana-stop-home-invasion-gory-aftermath-nsfw/) (warning: gory pics!)



I used to love RJ Martin Japanese style knives. Still do...

Funny you mention that - this thread was created because of my drooling over his Japanese style knives. You aren't, by chance, from the NSA computer division, are you? :p

[theJanitor]

If you're looking at a RJ Martin, then you're paying for quality of material, design, construction, etc. You're also paying for the name, and exclusivity. In other words, you're paying for it all. I'm carrying a Tom Mayo knife, and it's trading on the second-hand market at $800 ABOVE table price. But this thing oozes awesomeness, and bleeds quality.

[Wondering Beard]

"What's it for"

1) An EDC, semi-daily use knife. Cuts tape on cardboard boxes, opens envelopes, slices avocados/oranges/apples, etc.

2) An EDC SHTF knife. An centerline carried, behind the belt knife that never sees daylight except when being maintained or in use of self-defense.

3) Ornamental wall hangers (matched set of katana, wakizashi, and tanto) that could see use as a self defense weapon, a'la this dude in Argentina (http://knowledgeglue.com/man-uses-katana-stop-home-invasion-gory-aftermath-nsfw/) (warning: gory pics!)


For the first, get something like a Spyderco Endura, preferably 'waved'. If you prefer a fixed blade and your hands aren't too large a Spyderco Street Beat will do you great.

For the second, check the fixed blade knife thread: https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?15932-CCW-Straight-knives I think you're likely to find something there.

For the third, I don't really know much but Cold Steel has plenty of quality swords (of any style, though all heavier than I'd wish) for that kind of job.

Except for the swords, none of the blades should cost you more than $600.

[SLG]

"What's it for"

1) An EDC, semi-daily use knife. Cuts tape on cardboard boxes, opens envelopes, slices avocados/oranges/apples, etc.

2) An EDC SHTF knife. An centerline carried, behind the belt knife that never sees daylight except when being maitained or in use of self-defense.

3) Ornamental wall hangers (matched set of katana, wakizashi, and tanto) that could see use as a self defense weapon, a'la this dude in Argentina (http://knowledgeglue.com/man-uses-katana-stop-home-invasion-gory-aftermath-nsfw/) (warning: gory pics!)



Funny you mention that - this thread was created because of my drooling over his Japanese style knives. You aren't, by chance, from the NSA computer division, are you? :p

Tons of good choices in categories 1 and 2. For cat. 1, I would look for a thin blade, of stainless steel. It will slice food better, and resist acids with less maintenance. I don't use my edc knives for food, so I'm not sure who to point you towards without some research. I imagine others on here could give some good advice though.

Cat. 2 has many different camps. I prefer Clinch Picks or Pikal's though there are other choices as well. My favorite Pikal is from Tom Halloran, and I assume you know where to pick up a CP if you want one.

Cat. 3 is beyond my experience these days. Phil Hartsfield was my go to guy in that category, but since he died, I have no idea how much a used Katana would go for.

eta:

I've been pondering on this a bit, and a swiss army knife, or an Opinel might be your best bet for cat. 1. Cheap, effective, classy.

[Rich@CCC]

SLG,
A Spyderco Para Military 2 will operate as a cat 1 and cat 2 blade with equal efficiency.

[Mitchell, Esq.]

"What's it for"

1) An EDC, semi-daily use knife. Cuts tape on cardboard boxes, opens envelopes, slices avocados/oranges/apples, etc.

2) An EDC SHTF knife. An centerline carried, behind the belt knife that never sees daylight except when being maitained or in use of self-defense.

3) Ornamental wall hangers (matched set of katana, wakizashi, and tanto) that could see use as a self defense weapon, a'la this dude in Argentina (http://knowledgeglue.com/man-uses-katana-stop-home-invasion-gory-aftermath-nsfw/) (warning: gory pics!)



Funny you mention that - this thread was created because of my drooling over his Japanese style knives. You aren't, by chance, from the NSA computer division, are you? :p


No. But occasionally do work for the NRA...

[SLG]

A Spyderco Para Military 2 will operate as a cat 1 and cat 2 blade with equal efficiency.

I love my Spyderco PM's, but I don't consider any folding knife to be appropriate for Cat. 2. Obviously, not everyone agrees with me.

[Rich@CCC]

Unfortunately, Ohio's vague knife laws make concealing a fixed blade a chancy thing. I'd rather not give up my right to carry a gun because I concealed a 2" fixed blade.

[Wondering Beard]

I love my Spyderco PM's, but I don't consider any folding knife to be appropriate for Cat. 2. Obviously, not everyone agrees with me.

I think that if someone, for whatever reason, is better off carrying a folder for cat.2, the Spyderco Paramilitary is great, though personally, I would start looking at Emerson's in that category.

In any case, cat.2 for me is a Watson HiTS right now, even though it's main job has been cutting boxes and prying open wood crates.

[DI1]

For your Cat. 2, I would recommend the Spyderco / Fred Perrin Street Beat original or new cheaper version 3 (all black) with a custom sheath from Rich at Custom Carry Concepts. I have recommended this set up to a few people and they are very satisfied with it. Can easily be used for Cat. 1 as well.
The Gryphon knife is also a decent option.
Both are available from the Cutlery Shoppe.

[ReverendMeat]

Unfortunately, Ohio's vague knife laws make concealing a fixed blade a chancy thing. I'd rather not give up my right to carry a gun because I concealed a 2" fixed blade.

Okay, this is probably a really stupid question, but would it be legal to carry a folding knife with the blade unfolded, in a sheath as one would with a fixed blade?

[SLG]

For your Cat. 2, I would recommend the Spyderco / Fred Perrin Street Beat original or new cheaper version 3 (all black) with a custom sheath from Rich at Custom Carry Concepts. I have recommended this set up to a few people and they are very satisfied with it. Can easily be used for Cat. 1 as well.
The Gryphon knife is also a decent option.
Both are available from the Cutlery Shoppe.

Not gonna work dude. The cost and hassle of getting subhilts put on those knives is a deal breaker.

[SLG]

DeeTee

[DI1]

Not gonna work dude. The cost and hassle of getting subhilts put on those knives is a deal breaker.

Very funny dude!
:)

I don't put subhilts on, I only remove them from otherwise perfect knives.

[theJanitor]

Okay, this is probably a really stupid question, but would it be legal to carry a folding knife with the blade unfolded, in a sheath as one would with a fixed blade?

I had this done for a Strider SMF several years ago. worked really well.

[RevolverRob]

My question is: what is the difference between a knife that is similar, but one costs $500 and the other is $1000. Both are custom made by artist of similar skill, same steel, same length, handle material, etc.

I can't recall where I read this (I think it was regarding footwear), but someone said the difference between $100 and $300 is quality, the difference between $300 and $700 is detail. Something along those lines.

Is that the case when dealing with knives as well? If this is the case, what are we talking about regarding differences in detail?

I'm not sure what the rest of this thread says.

The difference between a $500 and $1000 knife is desire. What I have found is at the price point at $500+ fit and finish that can command that price is largely equivalent. The custom knifemaking world, for makers who start at $500 and go up, is a relatively small world. Much like the custom gun world is a small world. You may be able to invoke differences, "Oh it's a $500 knife, because the maker used a water jet company to cut out a bunch of stock blanks and then grinds them out." - Loveless, Randal, Bob Dozier they all invoked the pattern process and modified those patterns, it's a standard cost cutting measure, and no one beats them up. In short trying to argue about that X-knife is better than Y-knife, because it was ground out of a raw piece S35V, forged in the mountains of Crucible herself, because Y-knife was ground out of a water jet cut piece of raw S35V - is moronic. As is the comparison of "Oh, your's is S30V? Well mine is S35V, mine is 5 more V than your's therefore it is better."

The additional value of price is often a reflection of 1) Rarity of Materials used (e.g., expensive knives may use rare damascus patterns, or exceptionally rare scale/handle materials that are simple more expensive) and 2) The market for that makers work. Some makers do a low volume. Ernest Emerson is a classic example. Ernie turns out a minimal number of knives and "lotteries" them off at the Blade Show and other knife shows he attends. By "lottery" we really mean...you enter a free drawing and if you get drawn you win the right to purchase a custom knife at tremendously good deal below market value. It happened to my wife and I at the Blade Show several years ago and we picked up a custom Ernest Emerson for literally 1/3rd the market value. We barely got out of the door before we had cash offers, because the market demands the knives. I mean seriously, Ernie valued it at $500, but the market values it at $1500 and it is the same knife, there isn't anything different about it.

Supply and demand is really the name of the game. There are a lot of dudes out there who collect knives. They collect a lot of things and often have a significant amount of money to spend on it. Some of them simply buy things to piss on each others shoes. Others, like me, buy knives because I like the makers and the product. I tend to value the objects not just for the material purpose, but for the human behind it. I like Ernest Emerson for instance. I've only met him a couple of times, but he is a hell of a nice guy who has always treated my wife and I like great, old, friends. Similarly, I've never had the opportunity to meet Craig Douglas, but I like my interactions with him and will be meeting him sooner rather than later. That's why I didn't hesitate to drop coin on a Clinch Pick which is on my belt right now, because Craig designed it. He didn't do it in a vacuum either, he worked with a group of people, refined his concept over the years, and thought long and hard about it.

I gotta be honest with you. I could crank out a better knife than Ernest Emerson. I could commission a group to do an ergonomics study for the highest level of retention. I could run FEA analyses on shapes and grinds until I found the perfect, literally perfect, compromise of trade-offs. I could build it from premium quality materials, and have it machined out on a CNC and automated lathe, such that it is perfect within 0.001". I could do all of it and put it together and honestly? You wouldn't value it as much. Because it lacks the flaws, because it lacks the soul that an inanimate object can have, by absorbing the blood, sweat, and tears of its maker.

The difference between a Masamune-made sword and a sword made by a "lesser" smith - is virtually no different in practical use. Both are sharp, deadly, and usable. But one has the soul, the legend, the intangible. Put it another way - When is a Frank Lloyd Wright design not a Frank Lloyd Wright? - When Frank Lloyd Wright didn't oversee its construction.

-Rob

[Jay585]

Rob,

Thanks for that response. That is more of the answer I was hoping for, great explanations!