Actual Purpose of PS-90/MP7?

[GardoneVT]

The question came up at the range I RSO at , so I pose it here for an informed answer bereft of marketing speak or Cleetii chest pounding.

What is the actual , real world purpose for these types of weapons? Shooting Soviet troops in the Fulda Gap? Low recoil SMG ? Primary for support troops that's superior to handguns ? Bragging rights toy for Rainbow Six & Stargate cosplayers?

Ancillary: does the primary purpose of these arms have any relevance beyond "just because" for civilian use given commercially available, easily purchased ammunition?

[SLG]

There are others here that are likely better military small arms historians than I, but here you go. All PDW's were designed for a small selection of troops who can't/won't/shouldn't pack a proper rifle, but need more than a pistol would give them. Some designs have been more successful than others, but most people agree that they are not great fighting tools.

In recent years, some units have adopted the smaller caliber, high velocity PDW's for certain specific missions, usually involving nods and suppressors. Mixed reviews on that front, with some users really liking them, and others not so much.

For civilian use beyond the CDI factor? Nothing I can think of.

Maybe F2S/Sean/KevinB will weigh in.

eta: Re-reading your post, Soviet troops still had some influence on the ballistics of the smaller, high velocity rds, as helmet penetration at distance was one of the design features/testing protocols. I don't know that anyone called for that, but I do know that the manufacturers built for that, and touted it as a benefit.

[HopetonBrown]

A more proper comparison would be the P90, the PS90 is the semi auto version. They are both PDWs so you can look up that definition. Ken Hackathorn said "they make little blue holes" and require a lot of them to be effective.

[TGS]

The roots of the small caliber, high velocity PDW are in the late Cold War.

At the time it was common for support troops to carry 9mm SMGs, as opposed to frontline infantry armed with fullsize 5.56 or 7.62 rifles. The 9mms were incapable of defeating Soviet body armor unless using AP ammunition, such as the m39/b 9mm round fired from the Carl Gustav m/45 SMG. Even then, I think the m39/b was only capable out to 50m. I believe NATO did all their testing and standardization on CRISAT, which is a fabricated armor spec representing the average military equipment of the day.

So the powers that be came up with the idea of an SMG replacement which would give the troops the ability to at least penetrate body armor. I think the first NATO RFP(?) came out in 1986, first answered by the FN P90. In this role and small arms TO&E context, the SCHV PDW makes perfect sense. It doesn't really matter how much more effective a 9mm is against people, if you can't penetrate the body armor of your opponent to begin with. In contrast to AP 9mm like the m39/b, SCHV PDWs are effective against CRISAT out to hundreds of meters. 150-200 for the P90, 300 or so for the MP7 (if I recall correctly).

As the threat of Soviet invasion died, so did the efficacy of the SCHV PDW. FN marketed it for other purposes, trying to recoup R&D costs. This is how it came to be used by local PDs, the USSS, ect. To really put the icing on the cake, 5.56 carbines became much more reliable and widespread....which sort of made the SCHV PDW redundant and pointless.

[El Cid]

The roots of the small caliber, high velocity PDW are in the late Cold War.

At the time it was common for support troops to carry 9mm SMGs, as opposed to frontline infantry armed with fullsize 5.56 or 7.62 rifles. The 9mms were incapable of defeating Soviet body armor unless using AP ammunition, such as the m39/b 9mm round fired from the Carl Gustav m/45 SMG. Even then, I think the m39/b was only capable out to 50m.

So the powers that be came up with the idea of an SMG replacement which would give the troops the ability to at least penetrate body armor. I think the first NATO RFP(?) came out in 1986, first answered by the FN P90. In this role and small arms TO&E context, the SCHV PDW makes perfect sense. It doesn't really matter how much more effective a 9mm is, if you can't penetrate the widespread issued body armor of your opponent.

As the threat of Soviet invasion died, so did the efficacy of the SCHV PDW. FN marketed it for other purposes, trying to recoup R&D costs. This is how it came to be used by local PDs, the USSS, ect. To really put the icing on the cake, 5.56 carbines became much more reliable and widespread....which sort of made the SCHV PDW redundant and pointless.

I can't speak for Europe - did support troops over there have SMG's? Our support folks had pistols which was another key benefit to a PDW - third point of contact when shouldered and an optic. Especially with the infrequent training they received. Only SMG's I saw in DoD were in SOF units and protective details. If a rifle was not an option and I was being deployed with the choice of a handgun or PDW, I'd likely choose the PDW.

[TGS]

I can't speak for Europe - did support troops over there have SMG's? Our support folks had pistols which was another key benefit to a PDW - third point of contact when shouldered and an optic. Only SMG's I saw in DoD were in SOF units and protective details. If a rifle was not an option and I was being deployed with the choice of a handgun or PDW, I'd likely choose the PDW.

AFAIK, the rest of the world took to SMGs much more than we did during the late cold war, where after a certain point we pretty much kept the M3 grease gun for tankers, SOF and for the purpose of adorning ANG armories. M3 Grease Guns, m/45s, MP5s, Stens and Sterlings, and the PPS were in widespread use for support troops.

[Kevin B.]

I can't speak for Europe - did support troops over there have SMG's? Our support folks had pistols which was another key benefit to a PDW - third point of contact when shouldered and an optic. Especially with the infrequent training they received. Only SMG's I saw in DoD were in SOF units and protective details. If a rifle was not an option and I was being deployed with the choice of a handgun or PDW, I'd likely choose the PDW.

I was issued an Uzi (MP2, I believe) for part of the time I was in an exchange program with the German Army during the mid-90s.

[HCM]

The roots of the small caliber, high velocity PDW are in the late Cold War.

At the time it was common for support troops to carry 9mm SMGs, as opposed to frontline infantry armed with fullsize 5.56 or 7.62 rifles. The 9mms were incapable of defeating Soviet body armor unless using AP ammunition, such as the m39/b 9mm round fired from the Carl Gustav m/45 SMG. Even then, I think the m39/b was only capable out to 50m. I believe NATO did all their testing and standardization on CRISAT, which is a fabricated armor spec representing the average military equipment of the day.

So the powers that be came up with the idea of an SMG replacement which would give the troops the ability to at least penetrate body armor. I think the first NATO RFP(?) came out in 1986, first answered by the FN P90. In this role and small arms TO&E context, the SCHV PDW makes perfect sense. It doesn't really matter how much more effective a 9mm is against people, if you can't penetrate the body armor of your opponent to begin with. In contrast to AP 9mm like the m39/b, SCHV PDWs are effective against CRISAT out to hundreds of meters. 150-200 for the P90, 300 or so for the MP7 (if I recall correctly).

As the threat of Soviet invasion died, so did the efficacy of the SCHV PDW. FN marketed it for other purposes, trying to recoup R&D costs. This is how it came to be used by local PDs, the USSS, ect. To really put the icing on the cake, 5.56 carbines became much more reliable and widespread....which sort of made the SCHV PDW redundant and pointless.

This ^^^^^^ It was for support troops - easier to shoot effectively than handguns - able to penetrate flak jackets or soft armor which were just becoming a common "thing" when the P90 was designed.

I don't know to much about the MP-7 but another branch of my Agency previously used the P90 so I'm familiar with them.

The Over All length of the P90 was supposedly determined by the width of an "average" sized soldier and and "average" sized APC hatch so it would not snag going in and out of armored vehicle when slung on your back.

The USSS and the Federal Protective Service (FPS) had them. Not sure about USSS, but FPS dumped them for M-4's several years ago. They are easy to shoot well and fun plinkers in full auto. I don't know of any FPS shootings with the P90, however, the San Antonio, TX PD and Jacksonville, FL SO SWAT Teams both had them and dumped them for M-4's. They both reported very poor results, regularly requiring 20 rounds or more to stop bad guys even with solid center mass hits.

[frozentundra]

I recall seeing a video by Larry Vickers about PDWs vs. pistols some years back. It was an interesting format. I wish I could find a link. Perhaps it was from one of his Sportsman Channel shows?

He took a camera guy from the video crew, with pretty limited experience shooting or training(I believe he had just recently received handgun training from Vickers, but wasn't previously much of a gun guy) and they both shot timed drills, first with a pistol, then with a MP7 or whatever PDW it was.

From what I remember, the performance gap between Larry Vickers and Joe Nobody was significantly smaller with the PDW vs. the handgun, even though the guy had never shot that type of weapon before, but had received some quality training with the pistol.

I found it particularly interesting at the time because my father's health had been declining, and the only gun we had that he could store, access, manipulate, move around with and shoot was a High Standard .22 pistol. I remember thinking that one of these semi auto PDWs could have possibly been the bee's knees

Perhaps it's the ultimate old man gun?

[HCM]

Intersting idea. Some thing like an M&P 15-22 pistol with a sig brace and mini mags or better yet in 22 mag with gold dots.

[TGS]

Perhaps it's the ultimate old man gun?

Hmmm. Not a bad idea. If a .22 is the caliber of choice, a 20 round Five-Seven sure beats any other 22 on the market, along with having the reliability of centerfire.

[El Cid]

I had a PS-90 years ago with the intent of doing the SBR thing and adding a can. I eventually got rid of it because I started focusing all my training on the AR platform. That said its a VERY easy to shoot weapon and would be great for a "non-shooter" type (whether because of health or lack of experience). The controls and ergos were great and with a 50 round mag (presuming you live in a free state) it might be what he needs.

I preferred the USG optic as it kept a lower profile than the top rail options with Aimpoints or similar. It was very reliable and the only drawback was the terminal effectiveness of the projectile. But it would beat a Rimfire IMO.

[HCM]

Actually, doesn't Caltech offer a carbine version of their PMs 30, the 30 round 22 Magnum pistol?

[TR675]

Actually, doesn't Caltech offer a carbine version of their PMs 30, the 30 round 22 Magnum pistol?

I'd be surprised if Caltech does, but Kel Tec has one :).

If it is reliable - could be a good Old Man Gun.

http://www.keltecweapons.com/our-guns/cmr-30/rifle/

[HCM]

I'd be surprised if Caltech does, but Kel Tec has one :).

If it is reliable - could be a good Old Man Gun.

http://www.keltecweapons.com/our-guns/cmr-30/rifle/

Given California's financial situation CalTech may need new new revenue streams.

[ranger]

In the Army, there is a document referred to as the TOE or M-TOE - Table of Equipment or Modified Table of Equipment. There are a surprising number of positions coded for pistol only weapon issue. After 9/11, it became common (at least in the units I was associated with) to "dual carry" with a M9 and a M4 for those authorized pistol only. Very simple process for a deploying unit to request the additional weapons. THREAD DRIFT: That process worked in a "rotational" schedule where some units were deployed while others were "home" refitting, training, etc. Not sure what will happen if all units are needed simultaneously. We were constantly "lending" our M240Bs to other units for example.

[The Apprentice]

I have no factual basis for this but I always thought there purpose was in more of a protective detail type role. Such as secret service were we know agents are carrying but dont want to broadcast it with m4's. While uncomfortable I think a p90 is concealable under a suit coat.

[Chance]

Read DocGKR's sticky (https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?4338-Small-Caliber-PDW-s-FN-5-7-mm-HK-4-6-mm) about PDWs.

[SLG]

I have no factual basis for this but I always thought there purpose was in more of a protective detail type role. Such as secret service were we know agents are carrying but dont want to broadcast it with m4's. While uncomfortable I think a p90 is concealable under a suit coat.

No one wears P90's, or any other PDW under a suit. If you are built like a human, and want to have the suit fit you at all, it can't be done. Some of us may have carried PDW's under other types of clothing, under very specific, limited duration circumstances, but even then, it takes a lot of work for most to pull off, as well as deploy effectively.

[Glenn E. Meyer]

Having seen a Kel-tec carbine break in half, I'll pass on that brand.

Anyway the real reason for the P90 is to shoot down flying saucers (Stargate for favorite shows).

How old before you need an old man gun? I can still shoot 1911s at 67. Should I buy a 5.7 for the assisted care home?

[TR675]

Claude Werner has a good series of articles on this IIRC.

Not meaning to speak for Claude, but again IIRC the "Old Man Gun" concept comes from his experience with his dad as he aged.

The term is a misnomer, the need for an OMG is based on capability not age. I expect to need/want one earlier than you appear to because of arthritis in my shooting hand/wrist from a bad break.

[jetfire]

I'd be surprised if Caltech does, but Kel Tec has one :).

If it is reliable - could be a good Old Man Gun.

http://www.keltecweapons.com/our-guns/cmr-30/rifle/

It's not.

[TR675]

This is my shocked face.

:O

[Peally]

Their current purpose is to look cool and make people giggle.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4i572ESHFvo

[Gray222]

Their current purpose is to look cool and make people giggle.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4i572ESHFvo

Yes please.

[Lester Polfus]

Kel-Tecs are shit.

My wife's Young Woman Who Doesn't Have Much Time To Train Gun is a 16" Ruger 10-22 with 25 round magazines and a light. It runs great with CCI ammo. It isn't perfect and we'll likely move her into something else in the future, but it works.

[TGS]

I have no factual basis for this but I always thought there purpose was in more of a protective detail type role. Such as secret service were we know agents are carrying but dont want to broadcast it with m4's. While uncomfortable I think a p90 is concealable under a suit coat.

There are multitudes more 9mm SMGs that are more concealable than the P90.

The P90 and 5.7x28mm were not invented for protection details.

[jetfire]

This is my shocked face.

:O

I know, right? Quelle surprise

[Glenn E. Meyer]

If my wrists fail (which could happen), I do have a neat Buckmark with a fiber optic and a synthetic stock 10/22 that I put a sling on, rail and optic. With the 25 round mags, I wouldn't sneeze at it for a weapon.

Crappy wrists are a reason to practice with both hands. When I broke my dominant wrist, I carried for my other and in fact took a couple of classes that I was scheduled for with the nondominant hand. I shoot decently with it.

[Rex G]

A PS90 can serve as a “rule-book” gun, in a time/place that prohibits handgun carry, but allows loaded long guns. An example is Texas. Long guns require no license, and can be carried loaded, or not, and concealed, or not. Some say this is a niche. Well, Texas is a huge niche.

At just over the NFA-specified minimum 26-inch length, a 16”-barreled PS90 fits into containers/bags/packs notably smaller than needed to completely cover a 16”-barreled AR-type carbine, with buffer tube and collapsed telescoping stock. I have an Eagle Industries Discreet Case that just barely manages to contain my BCM AR, with stock collapsed. Our PS90 disappears deeply into this case. A case dedicated to the PS90 could be much shorter.

Nobody is going to truly conceal a PS90 under a sport coat, but there are fuller-cut outer garments that will casually conceal a PS90, especially in wintertime.

An SBR is an option, of course, but not everyone wants to jump through the hoops, and, as I understand it, there are additional requirements for traveling across state lines with NFA weapons. Some of us cross state lines often.

Age, wear, and tear, are factors that favor the PS90. My right hand, arm, and shoulder have chronic problems, that may be fixable, to a small degree, and my left arm and shoulder have acute issues, that will hopefully heal, but it will take some time, and PT. Our PS90 aggravates none of these problems, something that cannot be said about any of our other long guns, and quite a few of our handguns.

Temporarily, at least, our PS90 is my close friend. A niche weapon, yes, but I fall into that niche, at this time.

Edited to add: I am not, necessarily in love with the 5.7x28mm cartridge. I understand that shooting early, and often, may be required to neutralize a target.

[JodyH]

I bought a PS90 for shitsngiggles.
After shooting it and letting many, many other people shoot it and my M4, my 9mm AR and several pistols all side by side I realized it does an awesome job for what it was designed for.

It makes a great pistol substitute for people who receive minimal instruction and who won't do any training/practice.

The less of a "gun person" someone was the better they shot the PS90 versus any other option, often by a significant margin.
A PS90 with a dual-illuminated RMR (no batteries, no "on/off") would make the ultimate home defense firearm for probably 85% of the people who take my CCW classes.
People who can barely hit a 10"x12" target at 7 yards with their handgun can zip off a sub-3 second Bill Drill on that same target with 100% hits from low ready with just a few minutes of instruction.
5.7x28 SS198LF is damn sure not Thors Hammer, but 5 or 6 of them COM is way better than a couple .38's jerked low into the carpet.
5.7 is just a hot .22Mag as far as ballistics go but it has the reliability advantage of being centerfire and my experience so far with the PS90 is it's a super reliable, simple blowback platform that requires minimal to no maintenance.

Just as an experiment I was able to pull off a double Bill Drill (2 targets at 10Y, 6 A-hits per) in 2.75 seconds from low ready on my first try.
Before I tried that double-Bill I'd only done singles and a few doubles and triples, no strings and no transition practice.
The PS90 is just ridiculously easy to shoot at pistol ranges.

Expense is the only thing that keeps me from recommending it.
If it sold for $750 it'd be my most recommended HD firearm for a lot of people.

If my parents or my inlaws (all in their '70's and none of them are gun people) asked me to loan them a house gun for some reason, my PS90 w/dual-illuminated RMR would be the one I handed over.

[JodyH]

Just spitballing but I think a rimless .327 Federal Magnum shooting a 7.9mm 115grain JHP at 1500fps would make an awesome round for a PS90.
I bet it could be done with just a few modifications.

[PNWTO]

It makes a great pistol substitute for people who receive minimal instruction and who won't do any training/practice.

The less of a "gun person" someone was the better they shot the PS90 versus any other option, often by a significant margin.


What is your impression on the ability of the untrained to learn and operate the safety and other controls well and/or consistently?

[JodyH]

What is your impression on the ability of the untrained to learn and operate the safety and other controls well and/or consistently?
The controls are very intuitive.
The rotary safety is right below the trigger, just use your trigger finger to push it on and off.
The magazine is the only weird thing and that's a purely administrative action when it holds 50 rounds.

[fatdog]

A shooting buddy of mine who just passed his 70th birthday and has begun to make some serious OMG preparations bought a Keltec CMR30 last year. He jumped through the hoops to put it on a form 1 SBR. After his Form 1 came back Keltec did the barrel shortening for him, not sure the exact length but right a the end of the handguard. He is very pleased with the outcome. It has been pretty reliable, and with the premium .22 mag ammo he has found it to be very reliable. When folded it is not a whole lot bigger than the pistol. He put an RMR style sight on it, I think the trijicon.

Aside from the muzzle blast it feels like shooting an airsoft toy. When he put his standard .22LR can on it and the muzzle blast is pretty tame in that config.

What he encouraged me to try when we were at the range was one handing it, and I was surprised at how easy that was and how well I could hit with just the stock in my shoulder pocket and one hand on the gun.

I don't doubt that having the centerfire ammo in the P90 platform makes this concept more reliable.

[spyderco monkey]

I bought a PS90 for shitsngiggles.
After shooting it and letting many, many other people shoot it and my M4, my 9mm AR and several pistols all side by side I realized it does an awesome job for what it was designed for.

It makes a great pistol substitute for people who receive minimal instruction and who won't do any training/practice.

The less of a "gun person" someone was the better they shot the PS90 versus any other option, often by a significant margin.
A PS90 with a dual-illuminated RMR (no batteries, no "on/off") would make the ultimate home defense firearm for probably 85% of the people who take my CCW classes.
People who can barely hit a 10"x12" target at 7 yards with their handgun can zip off a sub-3 second Bill Drill on that same target with 100% hits from low ready with just a few minutes of instruction.
5.7x28 SS198LF is damn sure not Thors Hammer, but 5 or 6 of them COM is way better than a couple .38's jerked low into the carpet.
5.7 is just a hot .22Mag as far as ballistics go but it has the reliability advantage of being centerfire and my experience so far with the PS90 is it's a super reliable, simple blowback platform that requires minimal to no maintenance.

Just as an experiment I was able to pull off a double Bill Drill (2 targets at 10Y, 6 A-hits per) in 2.75 seconds from low ready on my first try.
Before I tried that double-Bill I'd only done singles and a few doubles and triples, no strings and no transition practice.
The PS90 is just ridiculously easy to shoot at pistol ranges.

Expense is the only thing that keeps me from recommending it.
If it sold for $750 it'd be my most recommended HD firearm for a lot of people.

If my parents or my inlaws (all in their '70's and none of them are gun people) asked me to loan them a house gun for some reason, my PS90 w/dual-illuminated RMR would be the one I handed over.

Great post, and I completely agree.

My buddy calls the the PS90 the "knick knack defender" because it's a gun his Grandmother could fire should anyone try and break in to steal her salt and pepper shaker collection ;-)

[Glenn E. Meyer]

Having seen a Kel-tec carbine break in half, I'll pass on that brand.

Anyway the real reason for the P90 is to shoot down flying saucers (Stargate for favorite shows).

How old before you need an old man gun? I can still shoot 1911s at 67. Should I buy a 5.7 for the assisted care home?

Now I am 70, maybe I should buy one?

[Drang]

It makes a great pistol substitute for people who receive minimal instruction and who won't do any training/practice.

The less of a "gun person" someone was the better they shot the PS90 versus any other option, often by a significant margin.


Just spitballing but I think a rimless .327 Federal Magnum shooting a 7.9mm 115grain JHP at 1500fps would make an awesome round for a PS90.
I bet it could be done with just a few modifications.

I fired a P90 at Trigrrcon last year, and can believe what Jody says about the PS90. (The P90 being the select fire SBR.)

Since the wife was a YUUUUGE Stargate fan, I think she'd really like it.

Are there any existing calibers that would fit in this package without wildcatting, and be easier/more economical to source than 5.7x28? (It looks like .30 carbine is a tad longer.)

Still have to get over the $1500 MSRP, though.

[jeep45238]

Still have to get over the $1500 MSRP, though.

Ammo is what’s holding me back on this thing. Price per performance and availability.

[HCM]

Based on my trigger time with the P90, the P90 /PS90 is a great gun. As noted above, it is ergonomic, intuitive and extremely reliable. Jody hit the nail on the head.


It makes a great pistol substitute for people who receive minimal instruction and who won't do any training/practice.


I'm no fan of the caliber but with 50 rounds you can always apply "P" for plenty.

Would I choose it over a 5.56 for work ? No.

Would I choose it over a Keltec anything ? Yes.

Would I choose it over a 10/22 for a little old man / little own woman gun ? Yes, if cost was not a factor.

If the right deal came along I would like a PS90 SBR as a "just because" gun, simply because the design is that good.

[olstyn]

I'm no fan of the caliber but with 50 rounds you can always apply "P" for plenty.

At $0.32/round for the "cheap" stuff and with the cartridge being a pain in the ass to reload for several reasons, it's a good thing that it's easy to shoot well. Putting in any significant amount of practice would get expensive in a hurry. That said, I'd love to get to try one out; they do look like lots of fun.

[PNWTO]

Putting in any significant amount of practice would get expensive in a hurry. That said, I'd love to get to try one out; they do look like lots of fun.

This is why, when thinking about the PS90 for my wife, the ammo cost is hard to be critical of as she isn't the most "enthusiastic" shooter. A single case would go a long way, even with some familiarization shooting and whatnot.

[Drang]

At $0.32/round for the "cheap" stuff and with the cartridge being a pain in the ass to reload for several reasons, it's a good thing that it's easy to shoot well. Putting in any significant amount of practice would get expensive in a hurry. That said, I'd love to get to try one out; they do look like lots of fun.

I just checked AmmoSeek, and 5.7x28 is going for ~$0.36 per round, .2WMR ~$.16, .30 Carbine for ~$0.25.

I don't know how easy it would be to design the fed mechanism for .22 WMR, or .30 Carbine. (There might be some other existing calibers that would perform well in this platform, but if part of the problem is rarity and expense of ammo, going with, like. .30 Mauser or .356 TSW wouldn't be much of an improvement.)

Regardless of caliber, I don't know what it would take to design and build the thing to cost a $grand less.

[spyderco monkey]

At $0.32/round for the "cheap" stuff and with the cartridge being a pain in the ass to reload for several reasons, it's a good thing that it's easy to shoot well. Putting in any significant amount of practice would get expensive in a hurry. That said, I'd love to get to try one out; they do look like lots of fun.

5.7x28 is definitely a champagne caliber - expensive, but very nice to consume. :cool:

That being said, ~ 2 years ago 5.56 and .45 ACP FMJ were selling for over 30 cents a round, whereas SS197 VMAX was selling for 36 cents a round. Likewise, defensive SS198 is 56 cents, about what I pay for PSA .223 64gr Gold Dot.

If training costs are an issue, Tokyo Marui makes a very high quality PS90 airsoft gun. Given the low recoil, it would be a pretty viable training tool for drills around the house.
http://www.redwolfairsoft.com/redwolf/airsoft/AEG_AEP_Tokyo_Marui_Other_Series_Tokyo_Marui_PS90_ High_Cycle_OD.htm

[spyderco monkey]

There's also the HTA 90/22 that converts the Ruger 10/22 into a PS90, which makes for another viable training tool:
https://www.hightowerarmory.com/v/vspfiles/photos/HTA9022TAN--4.jpg

[HCM]

There's also the HTA 90/22 that converts the Ruger 10/22 into a PS90, which makes for another viable training tool:
https://www.hightowerarmory.com/v/vspfiles/photos/HTA9022TAN--4.jpg

Links man ! links !

https://www.hightowerarmory.com/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=HTA9022TAN