Night shoot flash observations

[LSP552]

We spent Thanksgiving out in the country with my family. This provided the perfect opportunity to do a bit of night shooting to check the muzzle flash on three 9mm loads. I haven't really done any dim light shooting since I retired. The loads were the Remington 147 Golden Saber, Speer 124+P Gold Dot (what I usually carry) and the 147 Gold Dot. What I saw didn't match my expectations. In order of most flash, I expected Golden Saber, +P Gold Dot and lowest from 147 Gold Dot.

Surprisingly the 147 Golden Saber had significantly less flash than the Gold Dots. The 124+P and 147 Gold Dots were undistinguishable.

In the past, the 147 Golden Saber seemed pretty bright. Last night it was both smaller and dimmer and than either of the Gold Dots.

Having said that, neither of the Gold Dots were bright enough to be overly distracting or cause loss of the HD sights on the 226.

[dudley0]

One of the reasons I chose GD was the flash. It seemed better than the other big brands. Different color and all that.

Interesting that there is another that competes with them for flash and possibly color.

Is the 147 GS bonded? Currently I carry the GD 124 +p. When I can find them I planned to snag up some more...

[SecondsCount]

Interesting. We shot a bunch of different ammo in Ken Hackathorn's night class last year including my carry load, 124 +P Gold Dot and 124 HP reloads with 5.0 Winchester Super Field. Neither of them flashed a lot.

Ken was surprised at how low they flashed. We were shooting at 4300 feet elevation which makes me wonder if that made a difference.

[LHS]

We shot some 230gr golden saber at one of Ken's classes a few years ago, and it had a massive fireball, even worse than the old 200gr +p CorBon stuff.

[Chuck Haggard]

I've found Remington to be rather inconsistent. In the past I've not noted the 124gr +P Golden Saber to be bad, shot some up last year in an indoor range IDPA match, it had an obnoxious level of flash, far worst than past experience would have indicated, and the flash had this weird blue tint to it that I have never seen in a muzzle flash before. It was bright enough to seriously mess with my vision under those lighting conditions.

Last weekend as part of the class I was teaching we did a night shoot, and I always give folks an opportunity to run their duty/carry ammo through their guns in a no light course of fire so they can see their muzzle flash. Johncorey was on the line with his G34, running 147gr Ranger Bonded. The flash was damn near invisible from my position towards the side and about halfway down the line.

[LSP552]

We shot some 230gr golden saber at one of Ken's classes a few years ago, and it had a massive fireball, even worse than the old 200gr +p CorBon stuff.

I remember being issued 230 Golden Saber for our P220s and they were pretty bright.


I've found Remington to be rather inconsistent. In the past I've not noted the 124gr +P Golden Saber to be bad, shot some up last year in an indoor range IDPA match, it had an obnoxious level of flash, far worst than past experience would have indicated, and the flash had this weird blue tint to it that I have never seen in a muzzle flash before. It was bright enough to seriously mess with my vision under those lighting conditions.

Last weekend as part of the class I was teaching we did a night shoot, and I always give folks an opportunity to run their duty/carry ammo through their guns in a no light course of fire so they can see their muzzle flash. Johncorey was on the line with his G34, running 147gr Ranger Bonded. The flash was damn near invisible from my position towards the side and about halfway down the line.

Agree about Remington being a bit inconsistent in this, which was why I surprised at the low level of flash from the 147 Golden Saber. That load has been flashy in the past. The 124 +P bonded GS was the issue 9mm load for a long time and I do remember it being flashy also. I have some of the older (pre-2008 retirement) bonded 124+P GS in my stash. I might see if I can pick up a box of the newer stuff to see if these are across the board improvements.

I haven't shot the 147 Win Ranger Bonded, but the regular 147 Ranger T had the lowest flash of any duty ammo I've seen. Not only was the size very small, the color was very low key orange, but not in-your-face bright.

I have always liked the 147 Golden Saber when cars aren't part if the equation. Sometimes the ammo supply gets iffy and it's a good thing to know about your options.

I generally hate a behind the dot sight picture at 25 yards so I tend to find one of Doc's loads that shoots tip of the blade with any pistol I carry. With HD sights on the my 239, the 124 +P Gold Dot is perfect, and that's what it gets, along with my G17/19. The 226s really like the 147s, so I'm fine with those in that pistol. This seems easier than changing sights across the board for multiple pistols.

I wonder how many folks have never shot their carry ammo at night or in dim light?

[LSP552]

One of the reasons I chose GD was the flash. It seemed better than the other big brands. Different color and all that.

Interesting that there is another that competes with them for flash and possibly color.

Is the 147 GS bonded? Currently I carry the GD 124 +p. When I can find them I planned to snag up some more...


No, the 147 GS was the regular, non-bonded version. I think I remember reading Doc's comments about the 147 bonded GS not working as well as the 124+P bonded GS.

[OmahaOutdoors]

Thanks for sharing your observations LSP. Nice to keep that in mind.


Interesting. We shot a bunch of different ammo in Ken Hackathorn's night class last year including my carry load, 124 +P Gold Dot and 124 HP reloads with 5.0 Winchester Super Field. Neither of them flashed a lot.

Ken was surprised at how low they flashed. We were shooting at 4300 feet elevation which makes me wonder if that made a difference.

That is an interesting thing to consider. I'm not sure I've heard anyone suggest that elevation could make a difference, but I would be interested to hear if someone actually tested that.

[LSP552]

I haven't shot the 147 Win Ranger Bonded, but the regular 147 Ranger T had the lowest flash of any duty ammo I've seen. Not only was the size very small, the color was very low key orange, "NOT" in-your-face bright.



I HATE auto correct. ^ This is how it should have read.

[Beat Trash]

The Winchester Ranger T 147 gr load is our issued loading. We also have done some night shooting/training. My experiences with it mirrors Chuck's. I even shot a magazine out of my Shield. Not much difference, if any form a 4" barreled M&P9.

[LSP972]

the regular 147 Ranger T had the lowest flash of any duty ammo I've seen.

Lower than the original Winchester OSM 147gr Q-whatever cartridge we began the program with? That stuff had practically NO discernible muzzle flash, unless it was absolutely dark (i.e., no flashlights on).

If you'll recall, that ammo left little yellow particles all over the internals, part of the firing residue. It was freaking people out, until Rick called Winchester and was told it was anti-flash 'additives', don't worry about it.

What I remember most about dim light shooting was when we couldn't get the OSM load anymore, went to first generation Hydra-Shoks, and man… what a difference. But it still wasn't bad enough to change ammo again over. And, in fact, now that I think about it I don't remember any other significant problems with excessive 9mm muzzle flash. However, I never used any of those Remington GS rounds when they were the issue item. IMO they were loaded way too long (and still are), and the few I shot in your G34 seemed rather obnoxious, recoil-wise. So I continued to carry Hydra-Shoks, since I had a few stock-piled…

These days, its HST all the way for me. But you're right, I haven't shot any of the 124gr+P in dim light; or the 230gr +P, for that matter. That's easily rectified; I just might do it tonight after Baker closes up.

.

[Chuck Haggard]

I HATE auto correct. ^ This is how it should have read.

Fixed the OP for you.

[Chuck Haggard]

If you want an exciting time, fire the WWB 110gr .357mag from a snub.

It's a .38 +P with a flash-bang thrown in.

[LSP972]

If you want an exciting time, fire the WWB 110gr .357mag from a snub.

It's a .38 +P with a flash-bang thrown in.

Pretty much ANY full-patch .357 will do that… which is why I have 158gr .357 Hydra-Shoks in my 2" barrel car gun. The flash/blast of such a combination simply has to be experienced to fully appreciate it.

Four inch guns aren't a whole lot better. I well remember the special-snowflake/left-handed female cadet who screamed and dropped her M-66 after touching off the first round of "magnums" during her initial dim light training. She literally though the revolver had blown up in her hands… even after my careful explanation to the group as to what to expect. Sigh…


.

[Chuck Haggard]

When I was carrying a 640 as a BUG, and doing a lot of night time car stops on hinky cars during our crack wars years here, I did some night fire testing and found that said WWB was the absolute worst of all of the loads I tested.

I mainly walked up to those cars with the 640 in my weak hand already, the plan was to make headshots, and if I missed I could disappear in the ninja flash-bang after the first couple of shots.

Hey, it made sense at the time.

[Wondering Beard]

These days, its HST all the way for me. But you're right, I haven't shot any of the 124gr+P in dim light; or the 230gr +P, for that matter. That's easily rectified; I just might do it tonight after Baker closes up.

I just recently shot some 124gr+p HSTs out of a VP9 at an indoor range with all the lights turned on and I saw some distinctive muzzle flash. I also shot some 124gr+p Gold Dots and 147 gr Golden Sabers and there was no visible flash. The HSTs were hotter too in terms of recoil (not much recoil anyway but more than the Gold Dots)

[BobM]

We had some after dark training earlier this month. I noticed the 180 grain Gold Dot was relatively low flash. The training ammo was a mix of Winchester and Speer ball. It wasn't much brighter


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[LSP552]

Lower than the original Winchester OSM 147gr Q-whatever cartridge we began the program with? That stuff had practically NO discernible muzzle flash, unless it was absolutely dark (i.e., no flashlights on).

If you'll recall, that ammo left little yellow particles all over the internals, part of the firing residue. It was freaking people out, until Rick called Winchester and was told it was anti-flash 'additives', don't worry about it.

.

I do remember the OSM being about invisible, and the additive residue. It's been so long since I've shot OSM that I can't really quantify vs 147 Ranger T. The 147 Ranger T, last I shot a few years ago, was VERY low flash, really just a small dim orange.

[LSP552]

If you want an exciting time, fire the WWB 110gr .357mag from a snub.

It's a .38 +P with a flash-bang thrown in.

I use to love night quals with MAGNUMS!

[scw2]

If you want an exciting time, fire the WWB 110gr .357mag from a snub.

It's a .38 +P with a flash-bang thrown in.

Hi Chuck, was that the ammo/gun combo you demonstrated at the low-light portion of PEP3?

[Hauptmann]

I did a similar test with 9mm loads last year. Without a doubt, Winchester Ranger Bonded 147gr had the lowest flash, followed by the Win Ranger Bonded 124gr+P. I asked a Win rep and they use much higher quality low flash powder than many of their competitors. Both standard pressure Speer Gold Dots and Federal HSTs had similar levels of flash, which I would classify as medium. Moderately distracting, but not too bad with standard pressure. The 124gr+P and 147gr+P were noticeably more flashy than their standard pressure counterparts, to the point of getting distracting.