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Mr_White
11-27-2015, 12:37 PM
Week 140: On Target, Off Target (Ready Position Evaluation)

Results may be posted until December 27th, 2015

Designed by: Gabe White
Range: 7 yards
Target: Big target and small target - see below
Start Position: Varies - see below
Rounds Fired: 60

This drill is intended to be both a practice session and evaluation for ready positions (most essentially, where the gun is in hand, but the decision to fire has not yet been made.) We'll look at time and accuracy from two off-target ready positions, one with the gun extended and one with the gun compressed, and compare those to starting with the gun on target.

Extended: this position needs to have the gun fully extended, with the muzzle lowered to the spot on the ground where the target would meet the ground if it were long enough (effectively at the target's "feet".) The gun needs to be raised at the start signal.

Compressed: this position needs to be a compressed ready of some type, where the gun is held closer to the body and must be extended before firing (retention shooting isn't part of this drill.) Muzzle orientation in the compressed ready position can be tilted up or tilted down, but should be off the target. The gun needs to be extended at the start signal.

Targets: choose a bigger target (like a USPSA lower A-zone, IDPA -0 zone, or something similar) and a smaller target (like a USPSA upper A-zone, 3x5 card, or something similar.)

Procedure

String 1: Use the bigger target and the extended ready position. At the start signal, raise the gun and fire one shot to the bigger target. Record the time and whether it was a hit or miss. Repeat until you have done this a total of ten times.

String 2: Use the bigger target and the compressed ready position. At the start signal, extend the gun and fire one shot to the bigger target. Record the time and whether it was a hit or miss. Repeat until you have done this a total of ten times.

String 3: Use the bigger target and start with the gun aimed at the target spot, with finger in register. At the start signal, fire one shot to the bigger target. Record the time and whether it was a hit or miss. Repeat until you have done this a total of ten times.

String 4: Use the smaller target and the extended ready position. At the start signal, raise the gun and fire one shot to the smaller target. Record the time and whether it was a hit or miss. Repeat until you have done this a total of ten times.

String 5: Use the smaller target and the compressed ready position. At the start signal, extend the gun and fire one shot to the smaller target. Record the time and whether it was a hit or miss. Repeat until you have done this a total of ten times.

String 6: Use the smaller target and start with the gun aimed at the target spot, with finger in register. At the start signal, fire one shot to the smaller target. Record the time and whether it was a hit or miss. Repeat until you have done this a total of ten times.

Please report the following when you post your results in this thread:

Pistol and targets used
Total time and hits for String 1 (times for all ten repetitions added together, and number of hits out of the ten possible)
Total time and hits for String 2 (times for all ten repetitions added together, and number of hits out of the ten possible)
Total time and hits for String 3 (times for all ten repetitions added together, and number of hits out of the ten possible)
Total time and hits for String 4 (times for all ten repetitions added together, and number of hits out of the ten possible)
Total time and hits for String 5 (times for all ten repetitions added together, and number of hits out of the ten possible)
Total time and hits for String 6 (times for all ten repetitions added together, and number of hits out of the ten possible)
Anything you noticed

Training with firearms is an inherently dangerous activity. Be sure to follow all safety protocols when using firearms or practicing these drills. These drills are provided for information purposes only. Use at your own risk.

MVS
11-28-2015, 06:34 PM
Pistol and targets used G19 w/RMR, USPSA targets, UA glove liners
Total time and hits for String 1 .748 clean
Total time and hits for String 2 .978 clean
Total time and hits for String 3 .572 clean
Total time and hits for String 4 .779 clean
Total time and hits for String 5 1.047 clean
Total time and hits for String 6 .53 one miss high
Anything you noticed Obviously significantly slower from high compressed ready. To be fair, I never shoot from this position. The compressed ready I use is just a plain muzzle forward compressed ready but for the sake of the drill I did it the way called out.

4673

Clobbersaurus
11-29-2015, 07:59 PM
Beretta 92 D Centurion, AIWB under a fleece pull over.

This was an interesting DOTW.

String 1:7.67 - 4 misses
http://i.imgur.com/RHhpuMhl.jpg

String 2: 8.55 - 4 misses
http://i.imgur.com/eOj6OSHl.jpg

String 3: 5.55 clean (1st 5 finger registered on slide - 2.66; 2nd 5 finger registered on frame - 2.89). I prefer to register my trigger finger on the slide and I wanted to give an honest test to see if this is any slower than a frame register position, so I did five rounds of each position on this string. The slide register position was actually faster overall for me.
Unfortunately I forgot to take a picture of the target...

String 4: 10.25 - 2 miss
http://i.imgur.com/93kkO6Ml.jpg

Sting 5: 12.32 - 2 miss
http://i.imgur.com/cgXI295l.jpg

String 6: 7.74 clean
http://i.imgur.com/U43jwHsl.jpg

The results show that an extended ready position is clearly faster for me. Accuracy, as dismal as if was, was exactly the same.

MVS
11-29-2015, 08:14 PM
Now that someone else posted correctly, I see I made some mistakes. I put down my average score for the strings instead of my total. Easily figured out. My other mistake, which I have no idea what I was thinking, I used the whole head as my target on part two when it should have just been the small A. It looks like I have more misses than I thought. Oh well.

Mr_White
11-29-2015, 11:06 PM
Now that someone else posted correctly, I see I made some mistakes. I put down my average score for the strings instead of my total. Easily figured out. My other mistake, which I have no idea what I was thinking, I used the whole head as my target on part two when it should have just been the small A. It looks like I have more misses than I thought. Oh well.

That's no problem. You can still compare the different start positions, which is the whole point. That you used the whole head really doesn't matter either since that's what you were trying to do, even if by mistake, and it is still a smaller target than the lower A-zone.

Mr_White
11-30-2015, 04:06 PM
Pistol and targets used: Gen3 G34, USPSA Metric (lower and upper A-zones)

Total time and hits for String 1 (times for all ten repetitions added together, and number of hits out of the ten possible): 3.20, clean

Total time and hits for String 2 (times for all ten repetitions added together, and number of hits out of the ten possible): 6.12, -1

Total time and hits for String 3 (times for all ten repetitions added together, and number of hits out of the ten possible): 3.54, clean

Total time and hits for String 4 (times for all ten repetitions added together, and number of hits out of the ten possible): 6.27, -1

Total time and hits for String 5 (times for all ten repetitions added together, and number of hits out of the ten possible): 8.30, -2

Total time and hits for String 6 (times for all ten repetitions added together, and number of hits out of the ten possible): 4.74, clean

The relationships I already know between extended and compressed ready held true. Starting on target with finger in register is not something I practice. It was kind of interesting watching the sights while moving my finger from register onto the trigger - lots of movement. And different movement than I am used to seeing. Definitely was significant movement imparted to the gun. The time needed to move the finger from register to the trigger and press it is why starting off target can cost little or no time.

For the bigger target (String 1-3), extended ready clearly seemed best. Starting on target gained me nothing.

For the smaller target (Strings 4-6), starting on target did get slightly better results than starting off target. 0.15 seconds better, to be exact, and maybe a little better accuracy. For any normal ready position use, where I have the gun in hand, but haven't yet made the decision to fire, I don't think that 0.15 is remotely worth it. Not compared to the loss of visual awareness of the hands/waistline area of the target, which might end up costing a lot more time than 0.15, not to mention the safety aspect of the discussion. And the time difference wasn't discernible for me until I went to a pretty small target.

BN
12-02-2015, 07:05 PM
4751

Gen 3 G-17
IDPA Targets with 3x5 card

String 1: 5.96 3 misses
String 2: 8.03 0 misses
String 3: 2.69 1 miss
String 4: 10.01 1 miss
String 5: 11.62 3 misses
String 6: 8.08 1 miss

Anything I noticed.
I was expecting the extended ready to be faster than compressed. I had tried both a while back when I was shooting GSSF. Those are the 2 allowed starting positions. Before testing, I would have said that compressed would be faster. After all, it's just shooting from the 3. ;)

Too many misses. :( Most were low and/or left. Jerking the trigger.

Aimed in on the target was very fast for me. Average shot was .27 seconds. :)

Extended ready, pointed near the "feet" of the "target" seems the best for most uses.

Range1
12-02-2015, 08:01 PM
Was able to complete this also today along with DotW 139.
Used a Glock 34 and a USPSA (metric? Humanoid one anyway) target. Also screwed up and forgot to use just the small A zone and went for the whole head.

String 1: 8 hits 6.64 seconds
String 2: 9 hits 8.68 seconds
String 3: 9 hits 4.47 seconds

String 4: 10 total hits (2 in the small A) 8.64 seconds
String 5: 9 total hits (4 in the small A) 9.34 seconds
String 6: 9 total hits (1 in the small A) 5.04 seconds

As expected the compressed ready was the slowest for me and the already on target was quickest. Also as Mr. White mentioned the movement of the front sight when already on target and moving finger from register. I have seen this quite a bit with dry fire so was not surprised but was surprised by how much movement with the time "pressure". Was easy to push shots low. Could not shoot it clean, started off a little jittery and threw 2 rounds right at the start. The extended low ready is the primary ready position our department taught as long as I was on the department (30.5 years) so it is pretty well ingrained. Felt most natural and useful for the majority of circumstances officers might themselves in. Pushing out from the compressed ready felt like I could make the tighter shots more easily and indeed had 4 in the small A doing this. Misses on the large A were 1 left, 1 right and rest low. The head misses were all low.

MVS
12-02-2015, 09:11 PM
4751

G.

Aimed in on the target was very fast for me. Average shot was .27 seconds. :)

..

Considering an average human reaction time of about a quarter of a second, that is smoking. At least from my POV it is. Nice.

GRV
12-03-2015, 02:58 PM
4763

Above was from my low-ready string to the 3x5" (small target). I was proud of those 5 shots on top of each other, because that was a lot more consistency than I was expecting for this. Clearly I have a long way to go still, but allowing yourself to feel good every once in a while is healthy I think ;)

4764

G17 Gen4 TCAP orange front, Defoor rear
8" circle for big target, 3x5" for small target
7 yards

extended ready = low ready, pointed at "feet"
compressed ready = compressed to chest, muzzle pointed high

1) 8.05, 2 misses
2) 10.98, 4 misses
3) 6.57, 1 miss
4) 13.86, 2 misses
5) 16.08, 1 miss
6) 8.10, 2 misses

Man, this was exhausting. At some spots I had to take little rests while scores were recorded and such to make sure my shots weren't overly effected by fatigue. For the low ready, I found it notable that fatigue was mostly in my strong hand grip and my weak side deltoid.

I found going from register to on trigger while sighted in to be a slower more deliberate process than I liked, but it needed to be to ensure the sights didn't move excessively and that I didn't screw up the pull.

I used to not be so crazy about the low ready, but I've been warming up to it a lot lately. The trick is really all in having your eyes fixed to the target and then acquiring the sights when they reach that spot. I find this technique just doesn't work as well with a press out from compressed ready. I think this will be my goto general "ready" position from now on, issues of retention aside.

Against an 8" target at 7 yards, it's really not worth it to be on target for me. Against a 3x5" it was surprisingly more worthwhile, but honestly we're talking about locked in, front-sight focus, tunnel vision, i.e. barely any target awareness at all. So, I'd count myself in the low ready camp for real situations.

BN
12-04-2015, 05:46 PM
Shot this again today with my CZ P-01.
IDPA targets with 3x5 card.

4792
CZ P-01 times Glock 17 times from before
String 1: 8.58 3 misses 5.96 3 misses
String 2: 7.69 1 miss 8.03 0 miss
String 3: 4.11 2 misses 2.69 1 miss
String 4: 10.46 4 misses 10.01 1 miss
String 5: 12.06 2 misses 11.62 3 misses
String 6: 7.81 4 misses 8.08 1 miss

16 misses total. :( But they didn't miss by far. :)

I was surprised that my extended ready and compressed ready times were so close. Part of it is that the Meprolite sights on this pistol suck. I had more time to acquire them on the press out. I fired every shot DA, de-cocking after each shot.

edit to add: I added my Glock 17 times from the other day. They are a little hard to read and separate.

eyemahm
12-11-2015, 09:25 PM
USP Expert LEM 9mm, stock adjustable rear, Dawson .125 tritium front
8" circle for big target, 3x5" for small target
7 yards

extended ready = low ready, pointed at "feet"
compressed ready = compressed to chest, muzzle pointed high

1) 8.53, 2 misses
2) 9.46, 2 misses
3) 3.56, 1 miss
4) 12.16, 2 misses
5) 15.64, 3 misses
6) 7.27, 4 misses

This was very tiring in terms of maintaining grip over a long period and dealing with a sweaty frame/grip. I took some small breaks to make sure I was able to shoot the strings with relatively consistent effort. Still, I think performance was slightly degraded towards the end.

The trick to the low ready strings is to keep your eyes on target and bring your sights up to your eye level. This resulted in consistent hits and was noticeably (and measurably) faster than raising both eyes and sights from the feet or "searching for your sights" before they came to eye level. Compared to the compressed ready, this was a much faster technique to acquire sights and get solid hits on target. Even with a level (instead of muzzle elevated) compressed ready and pressout, the low ready was much faster and easier.

In string 3, I was able to do move my finger from the register and trigger mash at what was basically my reaction speed. On the smaller target, however, I had to shoot at about half the speed to keep my trigger press at a speed that it was accurate. Try as I might, I wasn't getting consistent hits at below .70 seconds, compared to .3-.4 seconds on the 8" circle. This was also a good lesson that my grip/trigger control isn't where it needs to be.

With regard to finding a ready position for dealing with real shit, if I had consistently shot from the low ready with eyes on target, instead of messing around with different techniques, I think my times would have been about 7.5 seconds overall, compared to 3.6 for on target. This is a significant difference and basically says it takes twice the time (.4 sec) to get on target. :(

I think we were supposed to find the difference in speed between strings 1 and 3, and 4 and 6 to be marginal, but there was almost 100% difference for me.

4921

Mr_White
12-14-2015, 05:48 PM
The trick to the low ready strings is to keep your eyes on target and bring your sights up to your eye level. This resulted in consistent hits and was noticeably (and measurably) faster than raising both eyes and sights from the feet or "searching for your sights" before they came to eye level.

That's how you're supposed to do it. Bringing the gun to where you are already looking is way better, technically speaking, than trying to find a spot with your eyes and gun simultaneously. It's also the only tactically logical thing to do - how would we make a decision to engage in the first place if our eyes are aligned with the sights and the ground or his feet?


I think we were supposed to find the difference in speed between strings 1 and 3, and 4 and 6 to be marginal, but there was almost 100% difference for me.

There was no 'supposed to find' about it. I definitely did have an opinion about what people would experience. It's been interesting to see more time difference in favor of starting on target than I thought. However it doesn't even come close to changing what I believe is a clear need for ready positions with unobstructed vision. Because decisionmaking. Starting aligned with the target spot before a decision to fire has been made is a non-starter with me for that reason alone, even if there is a time cost. With a little practice, the time it takes to engage from a ready position can be very similar to starting on target. It doesn't have to cost much time at all. And may even counterintuitively gain time.

BehindBlueI's
12-18-2015, 02:09 PM
When I started there was light cloud cover and a tiny flurry of snow. Then the sun came out and the wind was blowing the baffles around enough I had moving shadows on my target. That made it fun for the head shot box, but I got through it.

After 1st string:

http://i204.photobucket.com/albums/bb183/Docwagon1776/Ruger/20151218_122104_zpspfpbsx8s.jpg

End result:

http://i204.photobucket.com/albums/bb183/Docwagon1776/Ruger/20151218_124322_zpsp0rwljeo.jpg

String #1:
Fastest: 0.60
Slowest: 0.83
Hits: 8/10
Total time: 7.14

String #2:
Fastest: 0.72
Slowest: 0.98
Hits: 9/10
Total time: 8.36

String #3:
Fastest: 0.31
Slowest: 0.77
Hits: 10/10
Total time: 4.63

String #4:
Fastest: 0.89
Slowest: 1.07
Hits: 8/10
Total time: 9.70

String #5:
Fastest: 1.02
Slowest: 1.64
Hits: 7/10
Total time: 12.3

String #6:
Fastest: 0.65
Slowest: 1.46
Hits: 6/10
Total time: 8.73

Shot with my .40 P226 and American Eagle 180gr factory ammo. Everything shot DA.

Things I noted:

I'm significantly faster when starting on target, which was not surprising in the least to me. My slow times were due to slow reaction to the beep, and 6/10 were under .40 seconds. String #6 was tough because I was starting to lose mental focus and wanted to jab at the trigger and I also had a moving shadow playing up and down on the bottom half of the box. Most of my misses were just low and were in the shadow, a combination of visual confusion and stabbing at the trigger and shoving slightly. To be really fair to this test, I should probably shoot it in the opposite order at some point, from 6-1, as well. I'd also probably shoot the "compressed ready" strings from a low ready to compare to high ready as well.

Mr_White
12-18-2015, 02:25 PM
It's only going to be a rough evaluation without throwing a mountain of ammo at it, but I'm happy some people tried it. Thanks for shooting it and posting your results BBI, I was really interested in how it was going to go for you.

Mickey
12-20-2015, 10:55 PM
Beretta 92A1
Pistol training target

String 1: 10.82 2 misses
String 2: 11.67 2 misses
String 3: 9.14. Clean
String 4: 13.49 6 misses!!!
String 5: 15.12. 3 misses
String 6: 12.08 2 misses

All shots taken in DA.
I shot way too fast at the beginning of the small target I began to doubt that the Wilson rear sight I installed last week was properly zeroed. As it turns out they were I just wasn't being smooth on the trigger.


http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/12/20/08b173fe112cf9c705e35b84dbc4997d.jpg