LEM & DAK triggers

[Dismas316]

I'm trying to understand what the attraction to the LEM or DAK triggers. Is it just the consistent trigger pull? If so, why not go with a striker fired gun. I realize that often it's just a subjective issue with each person but trying to educate myself of the attraction. Tried one today and it was.... interesting. Pretty smooth long pull and the reset was nice. I can see with some practice it could be a solid trigger system, but not sure why. My personal preference is more towards the da/sa and it was pretty similiar...,but different, clearly a heavier first pull for the da/sa but the sa seems much better w/da/sa. I guess what I'm interested in learning is more the overall "concept" of having this type trigger in a carry pistol. I get the mechanics of it but just trying to understand the bigger picture if it all. It seems kind of like a system that isn't sure if it wants to be a striker or da/sa. Maybe that the allure, kinda of getting both in one system. Anyway would like to hear what you all feel the benefits are to it and trying to become more educated with it.

[breakingtime91]

http://pistol-training.com/archives/8549

start here.

[Rex G]

Striker-fired trigger pulls? Ugh! Well, OK, I will make an exception for the HK P7, a single-action striker system, which I liked. (I have never tried the LEM.)

SIG DAK is like a really nicely-tuned S&W DA K/L-Frame sixgun trigger, but in a pistol with twice as many rounds aboard. Every round I had ever fired with my DA S&W and Ruger revolvers, from 1983 onward, was preparing me for the DAK trigger in the P229R I bought in late 2004. I fired its first rounds on the PD qual course, and almost shot expert*, just below 95 points. The best I had ever shot with a Glock was in the 92-point-something range, in over two years of trying. The next time I shot the qual with the SIG, in a day or two, I could again wear my Expert pin, for the first time since transitioning from my "grandfathered" 1911 pistols to G22, in early 2002.

Within a year, all but perhaps one of my several Glocks were sold or traded. I never liked the Glock trigger, and the SIG fit me better. I maintained my skill level with SIG DAK until .40 recoil starting hurting in 2011. I actually returned to the Glock, for duty and most personal carry, this year, retiring the DAK, when my chief authorized 9mm as an alternative duty cartridge. Gen4 is a better fit than Gen3, and Glock has a lower bore axis than SIG, but I still do not really like the Glock trigger.

*Our qual course is not all that difficult, for a serious shooter, if Expert, at 95 points, is the goal. The next step up, however, Distinguished, at 99 points, or perhaps it is 98.5+, is much, much more difficult. My last best hope of shooting Distinguished probably went away when I failed to "grandfather" any DA sixguns in 1997, and then certainly went away when my eyesight went south, causing all iron sights to grow fur/fuzz, prescription lenses or not.

[Dismas316]

:D
http://pistol-training.com/archives/8549

start here.

Thanks I'll take look.
Edit: good read and made sense, may need to shoot some of these to get a better feel for LEM/DAK. That's all I needed was another reason to buy more guns. :D

[Nephrology]

Here is a question - would anyone (specifically SMEs) recommend the average (good but not great) shooter/CCW holder to change platforms from a striker fired pistol to an SA/DA or DAK/LEM trigger setup for safety purposes, both on the reholster and also for social purposes?

I re-read nyeti's article and some of it had me nodding my head. I am a pretty reasonably good shooter (usually place in the top 10 at local IDPA/USPSA matches) but certainly nothing special. I am very heavily invested in Glocks but occasionally wonder if I would be better served by a different platform for the reasons outlined above.

[Rex G]

Striker-fired trigger pulls? Ugh! Well, OK, I will make an exception for the HK P7, a single-action striker system, which I liked. (I have never tried the LEM.)

SIG DAK is like a really nicely-tuned S&W DA K/L-Frame sixgun trigger, but in a pistol with twice as many rounds aboard. Every round I had ever fired with my DA S&W and Ruger revolvers, from 1983 onward, was preparing me for the DAK trigger in the P229R I bought in late 2004. I fired its first rounds on the PD qual course, and almost shot expert*, just below 95 points. The best I had ever shot with a Glock was in the 92-point-something range, in over two years of trying. The next time I shot the qual with the SIG, in a day or two, I could again wear my Expert pin, for the first time since transitioning from my "grandfathered" 1911 pistols to G22, in early 2002.

Within a year, all but perhaps one of my several Glocks were sold or traded. I never liked the Glock trigger, and the SIG fit me better. I maintained my skill level with SIG DAK until .40 recoil starting hurting in 2011. I actually returned to the Glock, for duty and most personal carry, this year, retiring the DAK, when my chief authorized 9mm as an alternative duty cartridge. Gen4 is a better fit than Gen3, and Glock has a lower bore axis than SIG, but I still do not really like the Glock trigger.

*Our qual course is not all that difficult, for a serious shooter, if Expert, at 95 points, is the goal. The next step up, however, Distinguished, at 99 points, or perhaps it is 98.5+, is much, much more difficult. My last best hope of shooting Distinguished probably went away when I failed to "grandfather" any DA sixguns in 1997, and then certainly went away when my eyesight went south, causing all iron sights to grow fur/fuzz, prescription lenses or not.

A clarification: I shoot DAK as it it were a DA revolver, letting the trigger reset to the farthest-forward position. There is an optional shorter-reset position, which results in a shorter but heavier trigger pull that does not mimic a DA revolver trigger. As I do still use long-strong DA six-guns (and a Seecamp auto) that require me to let the trigger reset rather far forward, there was no point in learning the shorter of the two DAK reset positions.

[Rex G]

Here is a question - would anyone (specifically SMEs) recommend the average (good but not great) shooter/CCW holder to change platforms from a striker fired pistol to an SA/DA or DAK/LEM trigger setup for safety purposes, both on the reholster and also for social purposes?

I re-read nyeti's article and some of it had me nodding my head. I am a pretty reasonably good shooter (usually place in the top 10 at local IDPA/USPSA matches) but certainly nothing special. I am very heavily invested in Glocks but occasionally wonder if I would be better served by a different platform for the reasons outlined above.


I am certainly no SME, but some have said DAK slows them down, and I do not disagree. I have no experience with using a shot timer, but I believe I can shoot a good medium to large DA revolver* faster than a DAK SIG, and believe even more strongly I can (or could, at the time I was training seriously with each) shoot faster splits with a 1911, DA/SA SIG, or Glock, than DAK. Working a heavily-populated era, where every shot must be placed with precision, I never felt the shot-to-shot times with DAK to be an unreasonable threat to my safety. Again, to be clear, I have no shot timer results, just personal perception, that DAK may be just a bit slower, shot-to-shot.

I cannot comment on the LEM, due to lack of experience, and none of my colleagues have used LEM, either, as HK has not been an approved primary duty pistol here, since before LEM was marketed. (We standardized on a relative few brands and models in 1997.)

*I made a very seriously dedicated effort to learn the DA revolver well in the Eighties, when I was mandated to use only DA revolvers, 24/7, as a rookie LEO, in a boom-town big city that was, at the time, vying with Detroit for murder capital of the USA.

[Nephrology]

I am certainly no SME, but some have said DAK slows them down, and I do not disagree. I have no experience with using a shot timer, but I believe I can shoot a good medium to large DA revolver* faster than a DAK SIG, and believe even more strongly I can (or could, at the time I was training seriously with each) shoot faster splits with a 1911, DA/SA SIG, or Glock, than DAK. Working a heavily-populated era, where every shot must be placed with precision, I never felt the shot-to-shot times with DAK to be an unreasonable threat to my safety. Again, to be clear, I have no shot timer results, just personal perception, that DAK may be just a bit slower, shot-to-shot.

I cannot comment on the LEM, due to lack of experience, and none of my colleagues have used LEM, either, as HK has not been an approved primary duty pistol here, since before LEM was marketed. (We standardized on a relative few brands and models in 1997.)

*I made a very seriously dedicated effort to learn the DA revolver well in the Eighties, when I was mandated to use only DA revolvers, 24/7, as a rookie LEO, in a boom-town big city that was, at the time, vying with Detroit for murder capital of the USA.

I own a Model 19 and also carry a J frame from time to time. I cant say I adore shooting the J frame, but my Model 19 is a gun I shoot absurdly well (though certainly much slower than my Glocks). The trigger pull isn't something I would object to - mostly just the cost of the transition to a new platform, especially given that here in CO I am limited to 15 rd magazines but have a very healthy supply of 17rd Glock 9mm mags that have been grandfathered in.

[breakingtime91]

It would be interesting to get Nyeti's take again. I think he is running a VP9 now and a j frame as a BUG.

[Dagga Boy]

It would be interesting to get Nyeti's take again. I think he is running a VP9 now and a j frame as a BUG.

I run a VP9 because I purely shoot it better and keep in mind.....I am in the shooting business. I am also not in the people management business at the end of a gun any longer, but have enough experience doing it that my finger discipline is at the high end. I also do not carry it AIWB. With that said, my AIWB gun is a P2000 or Hk45C, both with LEMs. Wayne and I both use P2000SK's as our deep concealment pistols...both with LEMs. My home defense and bedside gun, and travel guns to Socialist utopian states are Hk45's.....with LEM's, and that would likely be the gun I went to if I ever went back to police work.

This weekend was a very good example of my love for the LEM as a people management pistol trigger system. I was waiting for some AAR's, but the class is very high stress and difficult problem solving. We had multiple un intended discharges. They were not really negligent because my shooters had confirmed sights, confirmed targets, and a solid grip and control of the pistol and the shots landed within the intended target.....but, they went off before the shooters wanted them to. That is on one-dimensional paper targets on a range with multiple RSO's and instructors under blue skies and with the non-shoot/friendlies barriers were also of the cardboard variety.....everyone got a very good understanding of how hard this stuff is when its real, and a good look inside of how many LE shootings go bad when you stack too many tasks for a shooter to handle.
The LEM gives you a ton of trigger input and movement, without the requirement to build momentum, and it basically de-cocks by simply going to register with the trigger finger.
Wayne and I both noted recently that while we shoot our VP9's better (because they are easier to shoot....which can be both good or bad depending on timing and the scenario), but we both love the sort of "attachment" me feel with the gun using the LEM where we feel much more connected to what is going on with the trigger. For pure shooting exercises....striker guns really win the day along with single actions. For purely crisis management where you are usually taking prisoners and sorting through chaos versus pure gunfighting....I really like the LEM.....still.

[CCT125US]

One of many things I like about the LEM, is seeing my trigger press. I personally find this beneficial with cold, gloved fingers.

[GRV]

Personally, not actually owning a modern HK myself, a large part of the value I see in the LEM is that the HK DA pull sucks. If I were buying a modern HK, and their DA/SA felt like a good SIG P-series, I don't think I'd bother with LEM. As it stands though, I would definitely go LEM.

[breakingtime91]

Personally, not actually owning a modern HK myself, a large part of the value I see in the LEM is that the HK DA pull sucks. If I were buying a modern HK, and their DA/SA felt like a good SIG P-series, I don't think I'd bother with LEM. As it stands though, I would definitely go LEM.

Thanks Nyeti. I really enjoy the LEM and find it to be exactly what I was looking for in a pistol. The added side benefit is the fact that HK's are so damn accurate...I thought my glock with kkm barrel was good but holy shit, this thing shots leagues above my skill level.

[nwhpfan]

I wouldn't compare the DAK to the LEM. The DAK is a "decent" double action pull. LEM is like shooting single action with a lot of slack IMO. My factory LEM pull was 4.5 lbs in my 2000; it was very nice and shoot able. You pull through some slack to the pressure wall and have a very nice pull from that point on. Why it over striker? Good question. Sometimes you just want or like a particular feel. As for me, I like the overall pull to be a little shorter so I don't shoot LEM - that's just me. But there are many attributes to the P30 (as example) that I like and when taking all things into consideration; I can see where some would pick a gun that is LEM because of other qualities the particular gun has.

[Cecil Burch]

One of many things I like about the LEM, is seeing my trigger press. I personally find this beneficial with cold, gloved fingers.


I did not mentally process that feature until nyeti pointed it out to me. A couple of weeks later I took Tom Givens' Combative Pistol 1 course, and picking up the hammer in my peripheral vision was a definite help throughout the class.

[Dismas316]

I run a VP9 because I purely shoot it better and keep in mind.....I am in the shooting business. I am also not in the people management business at the end of a gun any longer, but have enough experience doing it that my finger discipline is at the high end. I also do not carry it AIWB. With that said, my AIWB gun is a P2000 or Hk45C, both with LEMs. Wayne and I both use P2000SK's as our deep concealment pistols...both with LEMs. My home defense and bedside gun, and travel guns to Socialist utopian states are Hk45's.....with LEM's, and that would likely be the gun I went to if I ever went back to police work.

This weekend was a very good example of my love for the LEM as a people management pistol trigger system. I was waiting for some AAR's, but the class is very high stress and difficult problem solving. We had multiple un intended discharges. They were not really negligent because my shooters had confirmed sights, confirmed targets, and a solid grip and control of the pistol and the shots landed within the intended target.....but, they went off before the shooters wanted them to. That is on one-dimensional paper targets on a range with multiple RSO's and instructors under blue skies and with the non-shoot/friendlies barriers were also of the cardboard variety.....everyone got a very good understanding of how hard this stuff is when its real, and a good look inside of how many LE shootings go bad when you stack too many tasks for a shooter to handle.
The LEM gives you a ton of trigger input and movement, without the requirement to build momentum, and it basically de-cocks by simply going to register with the trigger finger.
Wayne and I both noted recently that while we shoot our VP9's better (because they are easier to shoot....which can be both good or bad depending on timing and the scenario), but we both love the sort of "attachment" me feel with the gun using the LEM where we feel much more connected to what is going on with the trigger. For pure shooting exercises....striker guns really win the day along with single actions. For purely crisis management where you are usually taking prisoners and sorting through chaos versus pure gunfighting....I really like the LEM.....still.

As someone who is no where near you in experience, many of the reasons you have stated on why you like the LEM is probably the reason I have gone to da/sa. What I thought was weird (probably because my first time handling the trigger) is you have actually have a light first pull (albeit long) but then the reset is a bit heavier. Kind of opposite of what I have trained with (da/sa). It just didn't seem intuitive, again probably because not used to it. In my original post I made the comment of why not just a striker, (that was more thinking out loud) but my real question should have been why the LEM/DAK over at da/sa. It seems most of the benefits are in the same arena as the da/sa benefits. I guess ultimately its a bit subjective to each individual like most things. I appreciate all the honest and thoughtful feedback on this site as opposed to the "it sucks" comments you get most everywhere else.

[OnionsAndDragons]

I wouldn't compare the DAK to the LEM. The DAK is a "decent" double action pull. LEM is like shooting single action with a lot of slack IMO. My factory LEM pull was 4.5 lbs in my 2000; it was very nice and shoot able. You pull through some slack to the pressure wall and have a very nice pull from that point on. Why it over striker? Good question. Sometimes you just want or like a particular feel. As for me, I like the overall pull to be a little shorter so I don't shoot LEM - that's just me. But there are many attributes to the P30 (as example) that I like and when taking all things into consideration; I can see where some would pick a gun that is LEM because of other qualities the particular gun has.

This is my experience.

My broken in LEM triggers feel more like a PPQ, with a bit longer take up, than a Glock. Not as smooth as a SIG DA pull, but about as long, with the weight of a SA pull. I believe that nyeti's experience is very emphatically supportive of the idea that length of the trigger pull is a major factor in only shooting when intended. That's what I want.

That said, if every HK TDA pistol had a trigger like a USP Elite/Match, I might overlook LEM entirely. Those are some sweet TDA actions, comparable w SIGs to me.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[Dagga Boy]

I was very much in the "don't like the LEM" when first exposed to it and I had a very long history and literally a half million rounds through a DA/SA platform. I "evolved" as to the benefits. The biggest positive issue I found was the lack of pre-or post shooting manipulations. It is simply finger on when intending to shoot, finger off when done. The benefit of visually seeing not only the trigger press but the reset is also a big positive from the aspect of what actually happens in a real world shooting and your visual acuity. Also the DA "momentum building" trigger I (and many here would agree) find better for "shooting", but I do not think it is a benefit over a "movement building" trigger like the LEM that is better in my mind for crisis management. Also....my thoughts are unique to the LEM and not the other triggers that are similar.

Triggers and operational systems have some pluses and minus in many situations. Certain attributes are great when matched to the scenario, some are very much problems in other scenarios. It was interesting watching various systems in play this weekend. In one case a shooter with a P7M8 in a one handed vehicle scenario was by far the cleanest operation I saw and the gun was the "right" tool for the scenario. Very much like the situation I discussed with one of my guys in the essay I wrote that is referenced in the beginning of this thread. In other cases, the striker guns and single actions did well with some of the more difficult shots. I would also say during the final stress exercise on Sunday, the best pure shooting and solving of the shooting problem was done with a Double Action revolver..........which sort of says something about pre conceptions of the auto always being a better option. With that said, for those that essentially screwed up and had to revisit the problem a lot, having a semi-auto was a very good thing.

[psalms144.1]

I carry a striker fired pistol (G19) because it offers the best combination of size/capacity/recoil control and accuracy I've found. I have a P2000 9mm in LEM, and it is significantly more accurate, mechanically (as evidenced in slow, deliberate shooting), but loses a lot of PRACTICAL accuracy when running at speed. Having said all that, my job VERY rarely involves the "people management" aspect of armed LE encounters that shaped so much of nyeti's career, so I'm much more wedded to the "shootability" of the striker fired pistol.

I have a co-worker who is looking for an option that's smaller and lighter than our issued P229R DAK, and she INSISTS she has to have a hammer-fired pistol. To her, the ability to see the hammer move and "thumb" the hammer on reholstering is non-negotiable. She has great fundamentals and awareness, she's just not comfortable with anything without a hammer. I don't fault her for this at all. I let her shoot a couple of magazines through my P2000 last week, and she's now on the hunt for one for herself.

Would I ever advocate the DAK or LEM for "safety" reasons for marginally trained shooters? NO. Here's why not. Regardless of trigger system, a reflexive hand closure is going to pull through the trigger - regardless of weight/length/whatever. Marginally trained folks who are picking a longer/heavier trigger pull because it's "safer" tell me they've ALREADY DECIDED they're going to get their finger on the trigger early. This is a total, all-stop ship wreck of a failure that MUST be addressed through training in proper weapons handling, not through a "hardware" wooby that's just a placebo.

Please note, this is NOT to take away from nyeti's experience and the ability to GET OFF the trigger easily on the LEM/DAK - which I think is a great feature of that trigger system...

[Artemas]

Is there advantage to a DA/SA in regards to the mainspring and the maintenance cycle of said spring over the LEM(being cocked for a long term duration)?

I know it's stupid question, but I still fight what I was taught growing up and just need someone to say "stop worrying about it":o

[Chuck Whitlock]

Here is a question - would anyone (specifically SMEs) recommend the average (good but not great) shooter/CCW holder to change platforms from a striker fired pistol to an SA/DA or DAK/LEM trigger setup for safety purposes, both on the reholster and also for social purposes?

I re-read nyeti's article and some of it had me nodding my head. I am a pretty reasonably good shooter (usually place in the top 10 at local IDPA/USPSA matches) but certainly nothing special. I am very heavily invested in Glocks but occasionally wonder if I would be better served by a different platform for the reasons outlined above.


I own a Model 19 and also carry a J frame from time to time. I cant say I adore shooting the J frame, but my Model 19 is a gun I shoot absurdly well (though certainly much slower than my Glocks). The trigger pull isn't something I would object to - mostly just the cost of the transition to a new platform, especially given that here in CO I am limited to 15 rd magazines but have a very healthy supply of 17rd Glock 9mm mags that have been grandfathered in.


I run a VP9 because I purely shoot it better and keep in mind.....I am in the shooting business. I am also not in the people management business at the end of a gun any longer, but have enough experience doing it that my finger discipline is at the high end. I also do not carry it AIWB. With that said, my AIWB gun is a P2000 or Hk45C, both with LEMs. Wayne and I both use P2000SK's as our deep concealment pistols...both with LEMs. My home defense and bedside gun, and travel guns to Socialist utopian states are Hk45's.....with LEM's, and that would likely be the gun I went to if I ever went back to police work.

This weekend was a very good example of my love for the LEM as a people management pistol trigger system. I was waiting for some AAR's, but the class is very high stress and difficult problem solving. We had multiple un intended discharges. They were not really negligent because my shooters had confirmed sights, confirmed targets, and a solid grip and control of the pistol and the shots landed within the intended target.....but, they went off before the shooters wanted them to. That is on one-dimensional paper targets on a range with multiple RSO's and instructors under blue skies and with the non-shoot/friendlies barriers were also of the cardboard variety.....everyone got a very good understanding of how hard this stuff is when its real, and a good look inside of how many LE shootings go bad when you stack too many tasks for a shooter to handle.
The LEM gives you a ton of trigger input and movement, without the requirement to build momentum, and it basically de-cocks by simply going to register with the trigger finger.
Wayne and I both noted recently that while we shoot our VP9's better (because they are easier to shoot....which can be both good or bad depending on timing and the scenario), but we both love the sort of "attachment" me feel with the gun using the LEM where we feel much more connected to what is going on with the trigger. For pure shooting exercises....striker guns really win the day along with single actions. For purely crisis management where you are usually taking prisoners and sorting through chaos versus pure gunfighting....I really like the LEM.....still.


I carry a striker fired pistol (G19) because it offers the best combination of size/capacity/recoil control and accuracy I've found. I have a P2000 9mm in LEM, and it is significantly more accurate, mechanically (as evidenced in slow, deliberate shooting), but loses a lot of PRACTICAL accuracy when running at speed. Having said all that, my job VERY rarely involves the "people management" aspect of armed LE encounters that shaped so much of nyeti's career, so I'm much more wedded to the "shootability" of the striker fired pistol.

I have a co-worker who is looking for an option that's smaller and lighter than our issued P229R DAK, and she INSISTS she has to have a hammer-fired pistol. To her, the ability to see the hammer move and "thumb" the hammer on reholstering is non-negotiable. She has great fundamentals and awareness, she's just not comfortable with anything without a hammer. I don't fault her for this at all. I let her shoot a couple of magazines through my P2000 last week, and she's now on the hunt for one for herself.

Would I ever advocate the DAK or LEM for "safety" reasons for marginally trained shooters? NO. Here's why not. Regardless of trigger system, a reflexive hand closure is going to pull through the trigger - regardless of weight/length/whatever. Marginally trained folks who are picking a longer/heavier trigger pull because it's "safer" tell me they've ALREADY DECIDED they're going to get their finger on the trigger early. This is a total, all-stop ship wreck of a failure that MUST be addressed through training in proper weapons handling, not through a "hardware" wooby that's just a placebo.

Please note, this is NOT to take away from nyeti's experience and the ability to GET OFF the trigger easily on the LEM/DAK - which I think is a great feature of that trigger system...


OK, sorry for multi-quoting 1/2 the the discussion. But please bear with me.

I have been married to the Glock for the past 15 years, ~12 of which a .40 version was issued/mandated. And I'm certainly better than the average copper (which isn't really saying much). As I've learned (particularly here) and grown, a few things happened. During an active shooter training scenario, I was "caught" finger-checking my "woobie" by the instructor. I was not consciously aware that I was doing this. I installed a "-" connector and NY1 trigger spring, which I really like.

I then tried a GFA, which made the trigger completely unusable for my small hands and short fingers. This made me really think just how much the Glock was on the upper limit for me. This was all in the time frame that Nyeti's street trigger article was written.

A move and new job with some equipment latitude led to some experimentation. A brief flirtation with the M&P had me loving the grip and trigger reach, but hating the trigger pull.

All that to say that I have begun to test the Sig P250c. All the attributes of the 320, with a smooth DAO trigger. Uses the same grip modules. I have the small grip frame and the trigger reach is great. I entered this experiment with no small amount of trepidation, due to the failed initial launch of the 250, but the word is the issues were fixed by Sig. I reckon I will see. Bear in mind that I cut my teeth on DA sixguns, but K frame Smiths are still a little long in the trigger reach department. The guns that I have /had that fit the best are a BHP, SP101, and Kahr. So far, the 250 seems to emulate this, and the entry price is attractive.

One of the biggest drawbacks to the 250 is the proprietary rear sight, which is also the firing pin stop. Factory night sights are available, and "Sharpied up", seem to pair with an orange CAP fron sight from Ameriglo.

I'm certainly no SME, but perhaps my rambling makes sense to some.

[Dagga Boy]

Is there advantage to a DA/SA in regards to the mainspring and the maintenance cycle of said spring over the LEM(being cocked for a long term duration)?

I know it's stupid question, but I still fight what I was taught growing up and just need someone to say "stop worrying about it":o

Stop worrying about it...I have yet to see any issues with the LEM in this regard.

[psalms144.1]

Chuck - I really wish that my agency had the ability to do more video-recorded training, specifically force-on-force training, because as much as I KNOW (in my ego-driven psyche) that I would NEVER "trigger check" during a stressful encounter, I KNOW (in my fear-driven gut) that we are all fallible. So, don't bash yourself about training flubs.

I didn't comment on the P250 because that question wasn't asked, but I think the P250's trigger is fabulous - Sig really did make a "flat revolver," with the P250. Mine was an early run, and had fleas (major, insurmountable fleas) when I tried to convert it to a different caliber, which led to my divesting of it. Then there was the FAMS debacle. BUT, I've been told by people who's opinion I trust with my life that the newest P250s are "duty ready," so take that for what it's worth.

If you told me I had to go to work tomorrow with either a P2000 LEM or a P250C, I'd choose the P2000, just because the one I have has been 100% reliable, and superbly accurate. But that doesn't make the P250C a bad option...

[Chuck Whitlock]

FWIW, video would not have done it. This was room entry / clearing stuff, and the watchful eye of the instructor moving with me is what caught it.

Thanks for the support. Not beating myself up, just wanted to mitigate potential issues when the fur was actually flying. I figure that training is the place to, you know, learn stuff. DAO really works for me, provided I don't run into trigger reach issues. If I had bigger hands / longer fingers, I'd have found my happy place long ago.

I'd be interested in hearing about the "fleas" you experienced so I know of specific things to watch for. Via PM is probably best to avoid further derail. The rest is why I am cautiously optomistic about dipping my toes in the water. The 250 checks all the right boxes for me, on paper, anyway.

[farscott]

I am the furthest thing from an SME, but I find the following advantages for LEM.

1) As nyeti stated, there are no actions needed before or after trigger manipulation with LEM. No safety to release, no decocker to manipulate afterwards. I find that helpful especially after being involved in a situation where I thought I was going to fire my pistol. Even though I did not do so, the adrenaline dump gave me a really bad case of the shakes after all was said and not done. It was bad enough that I just sat down where I was when the situation evaporated and placed the pistol next to me. The value of not needing to remember to put the gun on safe or decock was obvious to me.

2) I like being able to monitor the hammer when holstering. It makes it very obvious when the trigger has been snagged, and the long trigger pull gives one plenty of warning before an ND can occur. To me, this is a huge advantage over SFA like Glock.

3) Under stress, I am under no illusion that my finger may find the trigger. Having an action that requires a long, deliberate trigger press adds a margin of safety. I know I should not find the trigger when stressed, but I like that LEM is more forgiving than either SAO or SFA.

Combined with the small grip panels for the P30, I find the LEM trigger well suited to my short fingers. The pre-cocking of the inner hammer provides a very smooth, not heavy trigger.

[JDB]

I am the furthest thing from an SME, but I find the following advantages for LEM.

1) As nyeti stated, there are no actions needed before or after trigger manipulation with LEM. No safety to release, no decocker to manipulate afterwards. I find that helpful especially after being involved in a situation where I thought I was going to fire my pistol. Even though I did not do so, the adrenaline dump gave me a really bad case of the shakes after all was said and not done. It was bad enough that I just sat down where I was when the situation evaporated and placed the pistol next to me. The value of not needing to remember to put the gun on safe or decock was obvious to me.

2) I like being able to monitor the hammer when holstering. It makes it very obvious when the trigger has been snagged, and the long trigger pull gives one plenty of warning before an ND can occur. To me, this is a huge advantage over SFA like Glock.

3) Under stress, I am under no illusion that my finger may find the trigger. Having an action that requires a long, deliberate trigger press adds a margin of safety. I know I should not find the trigger when stressed, but I like that LEM is more forgiving than either SAO or SFA.

Combined with the small grip panels for the P30, I find the LEM trigger well suited to my short fingers. The pre-cocking of the inner hammer provides a very smooth, not heavy trigger.

all of the above. I'm probably a true weirdo, but I now really like the P30 V0. I just took my DA/SA P30, and converted it to LEM, but kept the sear/decocker lever so that the LEM than can be decocked for a DA first shot.
All of the advantages above, but it also lets me a)practice long DA pulls, and b)makes gives a little bit of added safety in case a little kid grabs it
(and no, I don't leave any guns lying about, but its always possible).

That ability to live fire practice with a DA pull really helps me for developing proficiency with an M9...which I never get to shoot unless its in competition or I'm teaching.

[DEG]

One of many things I like about the LEM, is seeing my trigger press. I personally find this beneficial with cold, gloved fingers.

Yep. I had the opportunity this weekend to take a class from Chuck Haggard (awesome by the way, and highly recommended) at an outdoor range in KS.

Temps dipped to around 25 degrees during the night shooting portion. Between the heavy cover garments, my cold fingers, and appendix concealed carry I opted for a P30 LEM for the duration of the class.

Many folks were shooting striker pistols and doing very well. I certainly wasn't the best shooter there, but I didn't feel handicapped by the LEM trigger. Rather, the additional safety margin on the draw and re-holstering helped me focus on the training drills. I find that it also allows me a bit of time during the press out to find the front sight and avoid flinching.

[DEG]

I should also mention that I had the only HK in the class, and they were all kind enough to not haze me :) /end thread drift

[LSP552]

As someone who is no where near you in experience, many of the reasons you have stated on why you like the LEM is probably the reason I have gone to da/sa. What I thought was weird (probably because my first time handling the trigger) is you have actually have a light first pull (albeit long) but then the reset is a bit heavier. Kind of opposite of what I have trained with (da/sa). It just didn't seem intuitive, again probably because not used to it. In my original post I made the comment of why not just a striker, (that was more thinking out loud) but my real question should have been why the LEM/DAK over at da/sa. It seems most of the benefits are in the same arena as the da/sa benefits. I guess ultimately its a bit subjective to each individual like most things. I appreciate all the honest and thoughtful feedback on this site as opposed to the "it sucks" comments you get most everywhere else.

There is nothing wrong with DA/SA and I personally prefer it to the LEM. I'd not worry carrying either as an issue gun and both would serve you well as a CCW, home protection tool. I think users of both systems can benefit from teachers experienced at teaching that specific system. They are different, and Glock techniques don't necessarily translate. There is an entire generation of "instructors" who have no experience with DA/SA (and I don't LEM is all that popular either, relatively speaking) and their response is generally they suck, which just shows their ignorance.

There are a lot of threads here on PF where LEM and DA/SA use is discussed in detail.

[LSP972]

There is an entire generation of "instructors" who have no experience with DA/SA (and I don't LEM is all that popular either, relatively speaking) and their response is generally they suck, which just shows their ignorance.


Man, you got that right.

But you know what? I have exposed almost a dozen- you included- folks to the LEM, with serious hands on range time... and you are the only guy who didn't end up buying one or more. I attribute that to our total immersion in DA/SA for so many years, and your apparent opinion that the LEM brings nothing to the table that you can't do without. And you're right.

Reiterating what was stated elsewhere in this thread, the LEM excels as a "street trigger", especially for the less-experienced. Strikers and/or TDA is/are better for pure shooting... as I proved to myself during that side journey with the P229 Scorpion. But that pistol was simply heavier and bulkier than my HKs. Plus, the rear-located slide stop lever was causing me grief, since I've been shooting Glocks and Hks long enough to have re-trained myself regarding dropping the slide. But that's another discussion entirely...

Still, I continue to feel the tug back toward Sigs. I detail-stripped Travis' P228 and P220 yesterday, so he could thoroughly clean them; then re-assembled them. While I was doing that, it struck me how I just dove in without a second thought. Every time I do an HK, it is very carefully and with an armorer's manual close by. The difference, I suppose, from managing one's own personal battery vs hundreds of company guns... but the fact remains that I thoroughly enjoyed that few hours, and still have one eye on a Legion P229...

Speaking of those "instructors"... I was called yesterday by a fellow (referred to me by a former colleague of ours) who is going through a reserve academy with a P220. He's been having malfunctions. A bit of interrogation revealed why... the self-styled expert running the range down there told him he had entirely too much oil on his gun and made him remove most of it. I 'splained him that Sigs need to be wet, and that if said instructor expert had any questions about that, please have him call me. Still winning friends and influencing people, that's me...;)

I think the LEM/DAK/Striker/TDA question is getting close to the biblical proportions of the eternal caliber debate. IOW, another one of those arguments that nobody can win decisively, because there are simply too many variables in play. However, I think one aspect is pretty much inarguable... and that is, the striker actions are more prone to NDs than the others. These days, I feel that is quite significant.

.

[LSP552]

Man, you got that right.

But you know what? I have exposed almost a dozen- you included- folks to the LEM, with serious hands on range time... and you are the only guy who didn't end up buying one or more. I attribute that to our total immersion in DA/SA for so many years, and your apparent opinion that the LEM brings nothing to the table that you can't do without. And you're right.

Reiterating what was stated elsewhere in this thread, the LEM excels as a "street trigger", especially for the less-experienced. Strikers and/or TDA is/are better for pure shooting... as I proved to myself during that side journey with the P229 Scorpion. But that pistol was simply heavier and bulkier than my HKs. Plus, the rear-located slide stop lever was causing me grief, since I've been shooting Glocks and Hks long enough to have re-trained myself regarding dropping the slide. But that's another discussion entirely...

Still, I continue to feel the tug back toward Sigs. I detail-stripped Travis' P228 and P220 yesterday, so he could thoroughly clean them; then re-assembled them. While I was doing that, it struck me how I just dove in without a second thought. Every time I do an HK, it is very carefully and with an armorer's manual close by. The difference, I suppose, from managing one's own personal battery vs hundreds of company guns... but the fact remains that I thoroughly enjoyed that few hours, and still have one eye on a Legion P229...

Speaking of those "instructors"... I was called yesterday by a fellow (referred to me by a former colleague of ours) who is going through a reserve academy with a P220. He's been having malfunctions. A bit of interrogation revealed why... the self-styled expert running the range down there told him he had entirely too much oil on his gun and made him remove most of it. I 'splained him that Sigs need to be wet, and that if said instructor expert had any questions about that, please have him call me. Still winning friends and influencing people, that's me...;)

I think the LEM/DAK/Striker/TDA question is getting close to the biblical proportions of the eternal caliber debate. IOW, another one of those arguments that nobody can win decisively, because there are simply too many variables in play. However, I think one aspect is pretty much inarguable... and that is, the striker actions are more prone to NDs than the others. These days, I feel that is quite significant.

.

All very well said. I could live with a LEM, I just don't see it doing anything for me that my DA/SA SIGs can't. The lighter weight is off-set by the much more complicated internals and the ability to work on them myself. The weight does see to have more importance now that I'm in my 6th decade..:D I off-set that by carrying the 239 more than 226. As you know, I've never been overly fond of the 228/229.

At this point in my life, I'm not interested in a people management trigger. I'm OK focusing on the shooting because if I draw as an old retired guy, that's likely where it's headed.

Pistol selection is so much personal preference, influenced by the specific traits we choose to emphasize.

[Nephrology]

I was very much in the "don't like the LEM" when first exposed to it and I had a very long history and literally a half million rounds through a DA/SA platform. I "evolved" as to the benefits. The biggest positive issue I found was the lack of pre-or post shooting manipulations. It is simply finger on when intending to shoot, finger off when done. The benefit of visually seeing not only the trigger press but the reset is also a big positive from the aspect of what actually happens in a real world shooting and your visual acuity. Also the DA "momentum building" trigger I (and many here would agree) find better for "shooting", but I do not think it is a benefit over a "movement building" trigger like the LEM that is better in my mind for crisis management. Also....my thoughts are unique to the LEM and not the other triggers that are similar.

Triggers and operational systems have some pluses and minus in many situations. Certain attributes are great when matched to the scenario, some are very much problems in other scenarios. It was interesting watching various systems in play this weekend. In one case a shooter with a P7M8 in a one handed vehicle scenario was by far the cleanest operation I saw and the gun was the "right" tool for the scenario. Very much like the situation I discussed with one of my guys in the essay I wrote that is referenced in the beginning of this thread. In other cases, the striker guns and single actions did well with some of the more difficult shots. I would also say during the final stress exercise on Sunday, the best pure shooting and solving of the shooting problem was done with a Double Action revolver..........which sort of says something about pre conceptions of the auto always being a better option. With that said, for those that essentially screwed up and had to revisit the problem a lot, having a semi-auto was a very good thing.

How do you feel this applies to a non-LEO CCW holder? Do you think it is more/less applicable or about the same?

[Dagga Boy]

How do you feel this applies to a non-LEO CCW holder? Do you think it is more/less applicable or about the same?

Tough to really quantify. I think they are great for most cops because they do a ton of searches and confrontations at gun point leading to more opportunities to need a little extra fail safe. For the CCW holder, my worry is always that most do not have much experience working under stress and in total chaos....which is where critical mistakes get made. Many people are over confident about capabilities that have never been tested, so it is tough. I will say, while cops tend to be trigger touchers under stress and fear, gun shops, shows, public ranges, and even shooting competitions scare the crap out of me with trigger discipline issues.