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View Full Version : CCW encounter that could have went badly.



voodoo_man
11-21-2015, 05:11 PM
I responded to a call for a person with a pistol, when I arrived I stopped a person who matched the description. Shortly after a complainant arrived on scene.

There had been an argument on the street over something trivial and during which, the complainant stated the male I stopped brandished a pistol, which was iwb. The male never unholstered it, never touched it, never stated he was going to shoot or hurt anyone, these are the complainants statements.

The male stated he reached into his pocket toget something and was wearing a tight shirt, accidentally exposing the pistol. Male had a good ccw, pistol wasnt stolen.

The complainant was very upset that the male wasnt getting arrested and that he was afraid for his life, though there was nothing overtly done and merely having a firearm does not in and of itself create intent.

Everyone advised and released. Told the ccw guy to make better decisions.

ubervic
11-21-2015, 05:41 PM
... the complainant stated the male I stopped brandished a pistol, which was iwb. The male never unholstered it, never touched it, never stated he was going to shoot or hurt anyone, these are the complainants statements.

The male stated he reached into his pocket toget something and was wearing a tight shirt, accidentally exposing the pistol. Male had a good ccw, pistol wasnt stolen.

The complainant was very upset that the male wasnt getting arrested and that he was afraid for his life, though there was nothing overtly done and merely having a firearm does not in and of itself create intent.

Interesting.

Would any LEO have cause to arrest the suspect in this case, given these circumstances?

olstyn
11-21-2015, 05:58 PM
Interesting.

Would any LEO have cause to arrest the suspect in this case, given these circumstances?

I'm not an LEO, so I'm not sure how much value my response has, but if I recall correctly, some states have laws against "brandishing" that include wardrobe malfunctions of the type described in the OP in the definition of brandishing. That would seem to indicate that in those states, an arrest could have been made.

BehindBlueI's
11-21-2015, 06:21 PM
Interesting.

Would any LEO have cause to arrest the suspect in this case, given these circumstances?

Not in my state. We don't have a "brandishing" law, and open carry is perfectly legal. You can walk around with it duct taped to your forehead as long as you don't point it at anyone or use it in a manner that meets the elements of Intimidation.

uechibear
11-21-2015, 08:05 PM
Good for you, voodoo_man.

Some officers in the state where I live would have arrested him, and the chief would have immediately revoked his license to carry for that simple "wardrobe malfunction". Since the license is required to possess anything firearms related in this "state", the PD would be at his home ASAP to take possession of all of his stuff. Besides all firearms—even the ones legally owned by other family members—they'd steal his holsters, all ammo (of course, since a license is required to possess it), scopes, etc. Those items would be sent away to a "bonded warehouse" and in most cases even if the person in question was lucky enough to be found not guilty after spending tons of money on legal representation, the personal property would never be returned (the warehouse can legally sell his property for their own profit).


Not in my state. We don't have a "brandishing" law, and open carry is perfectly legal. You can walk around with it duct taped to your forehead as long as you don't point it at anyone or use it in a manner that meets the elements of Intimidation.

Open carry is perfectly legal in the U.S. state I described above, but this is still how it works here, and these things have happened even to legally-licensed, professional business people (including a lawyer) whose suit jackets were accidentally blown open by the wind which allowed an officer to see a sidearm (arrested, etc. even though there was not even a complainant who saw it and got scared).

I only post this because I'm sure most U.S. citizens don't realize what it's like in places they don't live. I have plans to move to a part of America that's more free, and I can't wait. I have friends who are police officers, and I appreciate the difficult job they and some of you guys do, but living where I do I'm honestly more concerned about having problems with the cops than with criminals or terrorists.

wsr
11-21-2015, 08:07 PM
Interesting.

Would any LEO have cause to arrest the suspect in this case, given these circumstances?

Whether the LEO believed the pistol was exposed "accidentally" or "accidentaly on purpose" would be the determining factor ....accidentally on purpose would fit the definition of brandishing in most states I would think.

olstyn
11-21-2015, 08:37 PM
uechibear, where do you live? I need to add it to my list of places I'll never move to!

Trooper224
11-22-2015, 02:41 AM
Until about two years ago this would have been an arrestable offense in the metro area where I live. (I am not a member of this particular agency) If you were carrying and the weapon became visible because of a shirt riding up, or a coat blowing open, a citizen could be and often was arrested as this met the legal definition of brandishing. The PD were, quite frankly, absolute ass holes about it. In an area of the country that is by and large pro-gun this was something of an anamoly. About two or three years ago, the city passed an open carry ordinance. I'm convinced this was primarily due to the DA's office getting tired of dealing with crap caused by the PD's behavior.

voodoo_man
11-22-2015, 09:12 AM
We have open carry here, so no brandishing laws.

I find it very interesting that people will carry and not know to keep to themselves when others become confrontational.

TGS
11-22-2015, 09:32 AM
We have open carry here, so no brandishing laws.

Just so nobody gets confused reading this...

1) PA itself does not have brandishing laws, per se....it falls under disturbing the peace or terroristic threats.....

2) Legal OC does not automatically mean there are no brandishing laws, and you can still be charged for brandishing a legally OC'd firearm in many OC states.

voodoo_man
11-22-2015, 11:32 AM
Just so nobody gets confused reading this...

1) PA itself does not have brandishing laws, per se....it falls under disturbing the peace or terroristic threats.....

2) Legal OC does not automatically mean there are no brandishing laws, and you can still be charged for brandishing a legally OC'd firearm in many OC states.

Right, if OC is legal, I do not see how brandishing can be a law that should exist as many brandishing definitions remove the element of intent read applicable to OC.

TGS
11-22-2015, 12:19 PM
Right, if OC is legal, I do not see how brandishing can be a law that should exist as many brandishing definitions remove the element of intent read applicable to OC.

My personal connotation of brandishing is colored by where I lived when I started carrying (Virginia), and VA law requires intent to be threatening. It drives me nuts that some states can get you on brandishing just because the wind blew your shirt up (or skirt, because we all know da sexy womenz be carrying with garter holsters).

So OC is legal in VA. We walk into Starbucks, the unofficial speakeasy headquarters of the OC movement. I tell you to get me a venti chai latte. You refuse. I tell you, "Why don't you reconsider that..." and tap my Salient Arms worked Jimenez JA9 sitting in my favorite Bulldog holster.

Boom. All of the sudden, nyeti, now working as a barista in Virginia, appears from behind the counter wearing nothing but an apron and tackles me for brandishing.

Or, in Texas, we walk in to Starbucks while concealing. I tell you to get me a venti chai latte. You refuse. I say, "Fine, dick." The hairy special snowflake barista appears once again, and comments that I need to harden the fuck up while throwing a cup of black coffee at me. The wind vortex created by a hair special snowflake operating a milk steamer blows open my cover garment, and he then comments about how much he loves Salient worked Jimenez's, and believes they have the best manual of arms possible for "social problem solving." While conversing over other fine material objects such as Chinatown pocket watches, Sheriff Chuck Haggard walks up behind me and cuffs me for brandishing.

__________

To me, the most ridiculous thing in all of that is that a person gets arrested just for a gun being visible, with no intent to actually threaten anyone. Nyeti working as a naked barista at starbucks...well, that I can at least rationalize. After all, he was exposed to some really weird shit as a cop in SoCal.

voodoo_man
11-22-2015, 12:35 PM
My personal connotation of brandishing is colored by where I lived when I started carrying (Virginia), and VA law requires intent to be threatening. It drives me nuts that some states can get you on brandishing just because the wind blew your shirt up (or skirt, because we all know da sexy womenz be carrying with garter holsters).

So OC is legal in VA. We walk into Starbucks, the unofficial speakeasy headquarters of the OC movement. I tell you to get me a venti chai latte. You refuse. I tell you, "Why don't you reconsider that..." and tap my Salient Arms worked Jimenez JA9 sitting in my favorite Bulldog holster.

Boom. All of the sudden, nyeti, now working as a barista in Virginia, appears from behind the counter wearing nothing but an apron and tackles me for brandishing.

Or, in Texas, we walk in to Starbucks while concealing. I tell you to get me a venti chai latte. You refuse. I say, "Fine, dick." The hairy special snowflake barista appears once again, and comments that I need to harden the fuck up while throwing a cup of black coffee at me. The wind vortex created by a hair special snowflake operating a milk steamer blows open my cover garment, and he then comments about how much he loves Salient worked Jimenez's, and believes they have the best manual of arms possible for "social problem solving." While conversing over other fine material objects such as Chinatown pocket watches, Sheriff Chuck Haggard walks up behind me and cuffs me for brandishing.

__________

To me, the most ridiculous thing in all of that is that a person gets arrested just for a gun being visible, with no intent to actually threaten anyone. Nyeti working as a naked barista at starbucks...well, that I can at least rationalize. After all, he was exposed to some really weird shit as a cop in SoCal.

There were two other officer's who arrived to back me up who wanted this guy arrested or at the very least have his gun taken from him. I asked them why and they both agreed that he was threatening the people by exposing it. Without even arguing the logical fallacy of taking one side over another without any basis of proof/evidence, I was adamant about him having a legal firearm and doing nothing else other than having an argument with a random person on the street does not, in and of itself, constitute anything greater than a simple disagreement between two parties. It does not rise to the level arrest because there is simply no overt intent which could be articulated.

If he grabbed his gun, if he said "i'll shoot you" and showed them the gun, or something that nature then it would escalate the situation to the level of simple assault (or threats) depending on the exact circumstance.

It is very difficult to argue with those who because having a gun and getting into a confrontation automatically escalates the severity.

scw2
11-22-2015, 01:03 PM
There were two other officer's who arrived to back me up who wanted this guy arrested or at the very least have his gun taken from him. I asked them why and they both agreed that he was threatening the people by exposing it. Without even arguing the logical fallacy of taking one side over another without any basis of proof/evidence, I was adamant about him having a legal firearm and doing nothing else other than having an argument with a random person on the street does not, in and of itself, constitute anything greater than a simple disagreement between two parties. It does not rise to the level arrest because there is simply no overt intent which could be articulated.

If he grabbed his gun, if he said "i'll shoot you" and showed them the gun, or something that nature then it would escalate the situation to the level of simple assault (or threats) depending on the exact circumstance.

It is very difficult to argue with those who because having a gun and getting into a confrontation automatically escalates the severity.

By their logic, every time a BLM activist sees those officers walk down the street with their gun visible in a duty holster they should be able to rightly claim the police threatened to shoot them dead...

GRV
11-22-2015, 01:09 PM
Not in my state. We don't have a "brandishing" law, and open carry is perfectly legal. You can walk around with it duct taped to your forehead as long as you don't point it at anyone or use it in a manner that meets the elements of Intimidation.

Now I'm just imagining what someone who has a gun duct-taped to their forehead walking around while trying to execute muzzle discipline would look like.

HCM
11-22-2015, 02:08 PM
Double tap

HCM
11-22-2015, 02:32 PM
My personal connotation of brandishing is colored by where I lived when I started carrying (Virginia), and VA law requires intent to be threatening. It drives me nuts that some states can get you on brandishing just because the wind blew your shirt up (or skirt, because we all know da sexy womenz be carrying with garter holsters).

So OC is legal in VA. We walk into Starbucks, the unofficial speakeasy headquarters of the OC movement. I tell you to get me a venti chai latte. You refuse. I tell you, "Why don't you reconsider that..." and tap my Salient Arms worked Jimenez JA9 sitting in my favorite Bulldog holster.

Boom. All of the sudden, nyeti, now working as a barista in Virginia, appears from behind the counter wearing nothing but an apron and tackles me for brandishing.

Or, in Texas, we walk in to Starbucks while concealing. I tell you to get me a venti chai latte. You refuse. I say, "Fine, dick." The hairy special snowflake barista appears once again, and comments that I need to harden the fuck up while throwing a cup of black coffee at me. The wind vortex created by a hair special snowflake operating a milk steamer blows open my cover garment, and he then comments about how much he loves Salient worked Jimenez's, and believes they have the best manual of arms possible for "social problem solving." While conversing over other fine material objects such as Chinatown pocket watches, Sheriff Chuck Haggard walks up behind me and cuffs me for brandishing.

__________

To me, the most ridiculous thing in all of that is that a person gets arrested just for a gun being visible, with no intent to actually threaten anyone. Nyeti working as a naked barista at starbucks...well, that I can at least rationalize. After all, he was exposed to some really weird shit as a cop in SoCal.

Texas addressed accidental exposure of handguns in 2013.

https://gunsovertexasradio.com/2013/09/08/changes-to-concealed-handgun-laws-effective-september-1st-2013/

voodoo_man
11-22-2015, 05:11 PM
By their logic, every time a BLM activist sees those officers walk down the street with their gun visible in a duty holster they should be able to rightly claim the police threatened to shoot them dead...

Exactly.

Logical fallacy.

john c
11-22-2015, 11:27 PM
In my jurisdiction, brandishing a firearm is displaying it in an "angry or threatening manner." If someone's in an argument and intentionally exposes a firearm, I think that would/could apply, absent other justification. Suspect and victim statements would definitely be a factor.

There was an officer fired from my agency, but not charged, for such behavior in a love triangle verbal disturbance.

voodoo_man
11-23-2015, 06:40 AM
In my jurisdiction, brandishing a firearm is displaying it in an "angry or threatening manner." If someone's in an argument and intentionally exposes a firearm, I think that would/could apply, absent other justification. Suspect and victim statements would definitely be a factor.

There was an officer fired from my agency, but not charged, for such behavior in a love triangle verbal disturbance.

Thats essentially our terroristic threats charge, coupled with simple assault. Issue is, without other corroborating evidence who do you believe?

Tamara
11-23-2015, 07:50 AM
Or, in Texas, we walk in to Starbucks while concealing. I tell you to get me a venti chai latte. You refuse. I say, "Fine, dick." The hairy special snowflake barista appears once again, and comments that I need to harden the fuck up while throwing a cup of black coffee at me. The wind vortex created by a hair special snowflake operating a milk steamer blows open my cover garment, and he then comments about how much he loves Salient worked Jimenez's, and believes they have the best manual of arms possible for "social problem solving." While conversing over other fine material objects such as Chinatown pocket watches, Sheriff Chuck Haggard walks up behind me and cuffs me for brandishing.

A quick text search of the Texas Constitution and Statutes returned zero hits (http://www.statutes.legis.state.tx.us/SearchResults.aspx?CP=1&Code=ZZ&Phrase=brandishing) on the word "brandishing", although showing Nyeti a Salient Jimenez might be "display(ing) a firearm or other deadly weapon in a public place in a manner calculated to alarm" which would be Disorderly Conduct under §42.01(a)(8) (http://www.statutes.legis.state.tx.us/Docs/PE/htm/PE.42.htm#42.01). :)

SamAdams
11-23-2015, 08:32 AM
Kudos to Voodoo Man for his reasonable approach.

Hopefully that CCW holder will take his advice to heart. Choose your clothing carefully. Pay attention to how your movements may print. Use holsters which actually conceal. (Now, its extremely rare for me to carry behind the hip; somewhere from 1 to 3 o'clock is superior for me in many ways including concealment.) With long experience, you may be 'made' by someone who knows what to look for. But, you should never be spotted by the average, situationally unaware person on the street. From the description, this wasn't 'brandishing', but it wasn't very smart either. Luckily for him, he came across a true Peace Officer.

LOKNLOD
11-23-2015, 12:34 PM
I agree good job on handling it, VDM.

Here in OK we added open carry (only with a concealed carry permit...) and a lot of that support came from previous concerns around accidental exposure being potentially considered brandishing. I rarely see anyone OCing though, especially past the initial "oh I can do it now" honeymoon period.

They also softened the language of the "immediate notification" language for interacting with police, which previously almost insisted on blurting "I have a gun!!!" upon first contact lest you get penalized.

olstyn
11-23-2015, 03:17 PM
Whenever this topic comes up, it strikes me that for a blue state, MN has a very reasonable carry permit law. When we went shall-issue (IIRC in 2003), the law was written for it to be a carry permit, not concealed carry permit, for the very reason that LOKNLOD is talking about. While I make every effort not to reveal my pistol in public, it's comforting to know that wardrobe malfunctions can't send me to jail.

john c
11-23-2015, 06:09 PM
Thats essentially our terroristic threats charge, coupled with simple assault. Issue is, without other corroborating evidence who do you believe?

Exactly, there needs to be more.

Mr_White
11-23-2015, 06:51 PM
By their logic, every time a BLM activist sees those officers walk down the street with their gun visible in a duty holster they should be able to rightly claim the police threatened to shoot them dead...

Lololololol! Many people think exactly that. They are quite irrational, but not joking in the least.

True story for you:

Here in Portland, a uniformed cop, on duty, walked into a coffee shop. It was the Red and Black Cafe, some anarchist, leftist, Occupy type of place. He orders coffee. The person working asked him to leave, because he had a gun and they felt threatened. Cop thought it was a joke, but it became clear that it was not and they really wanted him to leave. So he did. It made some news at the time. I think this event followed one of the controversial local OISs at the time.

voodoo_man
11-23-2015, 08:12 PM
Exactly, there needs to be more.

I thought so, mere statements cannot be enough in my opinion.


Lololololol! Many people think exactly that. They are quite irrational, but not joking in the least.

True story for you:

Here in Portland, a uniformed cop, on duty, walked into a coffee shop. It was the Red and Black Cafe, some anarchist, leftist, Occupy type of place. He orders coffee. The person working asked him to leave, because he had a gun and they felt threatened. Cop thought it was a joke, but it became clear that it was not and they really wanted him to leave. So he did. It made some news at the time. I think this event followed one of the controversial local OISs at the time.

I heard about this story and though I have never been subject to this type of stupidity, I know it will happen sooner than later where I work.

okie john
11-23-2015, 08:55 PM
The complainant was very upset that the male wasnt getting arrested and that he was afraid for his life, though there was nothing overtly done and merely having a firearm does not in and of itself create intent.

Well done.

Does anyone else think that the complainant sounds butt-hurt and was trying to regain some face?


Okie John

Nephrology
11-23-2015, 10:40 PM
Lololololol! Many people think exactly that. They are quite irrational, but not joking in the least.

True story for you:

Here in Portland, a uniformed cop, on duty, walked into a coffee shop. It was the Red and Black Cafe, some anarchist, leftist, Occupy type of place. He orders coffee. The person working asked him to leave, because he had a gun and they felt threatened. Cop thought it was a joke, but it became clear that it was not and they really wanted him to leave. So he did. It made some news at the time. I think this event followed one of the controversial local OISs at the time.

I lived in Portland for 5 years. Loved the city, hated the people in it.

Coyotesfan97
11-24-2015, 11:20 PM
Lololololol! Many people think exactly that. They are quite irrational, but not joking in the least.

True story for you:

Here in Portland, a uniformed cop, on duty, walked into a coffee shop. It was the Red and Black Cafe, some anarchist, leftist, Occupy type of place. He orders coffee. The person working asked him to leave, because he had a gun and they felt threatened. Cop thought it was a joke, but it became clear that it was not and they really wanted him to leave. So he did. It made some news at the time. I think this event followed one of the controversial local OISs at the time.

The last time I saw that story I googled the business and surprisingly it was out of business.

Mr_White
11-30-2015, 02:53 PM
The last time I saw that story I googled the business and surprisingly it was out of business.

Wow, cool, I didn't know that.