RFI: 2-Way radios

[theJanitor]

I'd like to get a pair of 2-way radios (I think...) for my wife and me to connect in the case of emergencies. We're never more than 35 miles apart, so I'm thinking the units with a 50-mile range is perfect. And if possible, I'd like for it to be standard battery powered (AA, CR123, etc), that way I can buy some lithium batts to keep with the radio.

Natural disasters here would include hurricanes, tsunamis, flash flooding, so water-resistance would be a huge plus.

The ability to scale up the system to include more family members would be a plus as well.

Does anyone have suggestions? or can you comment on what you're using?

[TGS]

Check out ham radios. They're more versatile, and unless the repeaters go down as well you can talk with eachother hundreds of miles away.

I'm not into them myself......I have a buddy who is, however. He carries an Altoids tin sized one in his pocket, and keeps a more powerful one wired into his SUV. It seems like a good idea that I should get into.

[Maple Syrup Actual]

Check out ham radios. They're more versatile, and unless the repeaters go down as well you can talk with eachother hundreds of miles away.

I'm not into them myself......I have a buddy who is, however. He carries an Altoids tin sized one in his pocket, and keeps a more powerful one wired into his SUV. It seems like a good idea that I should get into.

I have thought that for more than a decade and my progress on this front is as follows:

1) accepted textbook on antenna construction from friend who built antennas for a living



I'll be following this thread with interest and failing to act on the recommendations with enthusiasm.

[theJanitor]

I also need something very easy to operate. If I can program the radios to talk only to each other it would be great. My wife won't even consider learning the system unless it's pre-programmed and set to use intuitively

[RoyGBiv]

You can't use HAM without a license from the FCC.
The test is a bit technical. Ive seen very non technical people pass the entry level test, but not without taking a class or doing some self study.

Connecting across 35 miles would require a mobile rig or home station On both ends. A repeater could be helpful if you have access to one, but there's no guarantee that a repeater remains functional in a disaster.

You could not reliably connect across 35 miles with a 5watt handheld unless over a repeater thats located in the right spot for your connection.

[theJanitor]

I was hoping for something like this, but battery powered:

http://www.amazon.com/Uniden-Submersible-Two-Way-Radios-Charging/dp/B008F57ICU/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1448152355&sr=8-1&keywords=Long+range+two+way

[RJ]

I'd start here and see if FRS radio would work for what you want.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Family_Radio_Service

FRS radios are easy to use, cheap, generally effective and provide decent comms. Down side is power is restricted, limiting range.

35 miles is a bit of a stretch to do with most equipment available to a non-licensed operator...

[RJ]

I was hoping for something like this, but battery powered:

http://www.amazon.com/Uniden-Submersible-Two-Way-Radios-Charging/dp/B008F57ICU/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1448152355&sr=8-1&keywords=Long+range+two+way

Those are battery powered. And they are FRS radios.

And if they have a 50 mile range, I'm Rumpelstiltsken. :cool:

[RoyGBiv]

Those are battery powered. And they are FRS radios.

And if they have a 50 mile range, I'm Rumpelstiltsken. :cool:
+1

35 Miles of central Kansas, maybe. If the weather was cooperating.

HAM is another fun way to spend your money. All the new toys are going digital now.

[RJ]

For more oompf, I'd use something like this:

http://www.motorolasolutions.com/en_us/products/two-way-radios/on-site-business-radios/rm-series/rmu2040.html

I've used a lot of Motorola radios, these are typical. Power is 2 Watts, and they are in a clear UHF frequency band radios that work day in and day out. Not 100% sure of licensing, but this is more likely to get you 35 miles.

[gringop]

I'm no radio expert but there is no way that hand held, FRS radios with 500mw of power will give you a 50 mile or even 35 mile range in a city.

The whole FRS system was designed to be low power, limited range that can be used without a license or much training. That way anyone can use them in any fashion and not interfere with other users on the same channel 50 miles away. FRS hand-held units must use only permanently attached antennas so there is not a option to connect to a larger antenna for more range.

Some radios (GMRS) can use both FRS channels and GMRS channels and can have an output up to 50 watts. Handheld GMRS radios are typically 5 watts. If you transmit above the 500mw you must have a GMRS license. There is no exam for a GMRS license and anyone in the licensee's family is covered by that license.

So GMRS radios are a FRS big brother with more power, more antenna options and a way for FCC to find you if you start doing bad things with the radio. But even with more power, you are not going to get a 35 mile range unless you have perfect conditions and a tall external antenna.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FRS_radio
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Mobile_Radio_Service


Gringop

[theJanitor]

Exactly the kind of info I'm looking for. Thanks guys

[peterb]

I used 2m ham handhelds a lot many years ago when I was hang-gliding. 35 miles is a tall order for a 5w handheld and a rubber duck antenna. Marine VHF won't carry that far and over water is near-perfect conditions. A better antenna makes a big difference but you trade off portability and convenience.

Amateur(ham) handhelds let you work through repeaters which greatly extend your range IF there's a repeater in your area you can hit.

No radio conversation will be private unless you scramble it. You can set up squelch codes that make your radios only respond to transmissions from each other, but anyone on the frequency could listen in.

[mtnbkr]

Licensed amateur here...

Forget 35mile point-to-point with a 5w 2m FM handheld. You might get lucky, but depending on the terrain, typical performance is much shorter. A repeater can stretch that out to hundreds of miles depending on its set up (the Bluemont repeater near Northern VA is an excellent example), but many are vanity projects and poorly managed.

The key to doing long distances with radio is frequency (lower is better), a good antenna (more and higher), and RF output (watts rating). A handheld doesn't have any of these. My Yaesu handheld will operate on the 6 meter band, which is much more ideal for the OP's desire to reach 35 miles, but that is an unusual feature. Sticking to 2m (144mhz) or higher (standard handheld freq support), you're going to be challenged to reach more than a few miles. For example, I hunt with some "Hams". As I was driving to deer camp Thursday, my hunting buddies hit me up on the radio from camp (5 miles down a winding dirt road in a forest valley). At a mere 5 miles over mountain terrain, I was able to copy him, but he was very scratchy. He was using a 5w handheld on 2m and I was using my SUV's mobile with a proper antenna (at 75w, I was loud and clear to him). Had I used a handheld as well, I doubt I would have picked him up.

Forget FRS/GMRS/MURS (the Motorola rig listed a few posts ago). They all operate on a 70cm-ish frequency and will not go the distance or handle obstacles well. At the same deer camp I mentioned above, FRS/GMRS was all but unintelligible where our 2m amateur handhelds were loud and clear (at 2.5-5w output). Once you get licensed for amateur ops, you won't look at FRS/GMRS as anything but a toy.

Also, forget about privacy on amateur radio. The rules specifically prohibit encryption of transmissions. Don't transmit anything you aren't willing to say in a crowded public venue when everyone is listening.

Chris

[Drang]

Licensed amateur here...
Ditto...

In an emergency ("threat to life or safety") you are allowed to use any means of communication available, licensed or not.
But.
Do not get caught using a means that requires a license without one unless there is an emergency. The FCC has no sense of humor.
An amateur radio license is cheap.
Radios are cheap. (You can get a three-pack of the ChiCom made handheld 2m for less than $100 on Amazon...)
The technician class test is fairly easy, and there are many self-study guides and practice exams available on the intert00bz.
Find a club, take a class.

[mtnbkr]

Ditto...

In an emergency ("threat to life or safety") you are allowed to use any means of communication available, licensed or not.
But.
Do not get caught using a means that requires a license without one unless there is an emergency. The FCC has no sense of humor.
An amateur radio license is cheap.
Radios are cheap. (You can get a three-pack of the ChiCom made handheld 2m for less than $100 on Amazon...)
The technician class test is fairly easy, and there are many self-study guides and practice exams available on the intert00bz.
Find a club, take a class.

Avoid the cheap Chi-com radios. They're a crap shoot if they work properly or not (1/3 of the ones I've seen were obviously bad) and are not FCC-compliant. You can get a proper Yaesu or Icom for about $100 and know it'll do the job.

Chris

[theJanitor]

You can get a proper Yaesu or Icom for about $100 and know it'll do the job.

Chris

I'm not hung up on the price, so if anyone can recommend a specific model that doesn't need licensing, I'd appreciate it. I'd gladly go to class, but I know the wife won't.

[Drang]

If you're planning on using it other than a "life or limb" emergency, you're out of luck on the "doesn't need licensing" bit. You'll be stuck with FRS or CB, which won't hit 35 miles unless maybe one unit is in orbit. And unlikely then.

[RoyGBiv]

so if anyone can recommend a specific model that doesn't need licensing,
What you should glean from the responses that you've received is that a reliable, no-license-required solution to operating over a 35-mile distance does not exist, other than a cell phone or carrier pigeon. Even with a license, you may (likely!) need to rely on infrastructure (repeaters) that go well beyond just the cost of licensed stations on both ends of the conversation.

If you live in Dallas, I'd be happy to show you our local RACES (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radio_Amateur_Civil_Emergency_Service)setup.

Even if you have access to repeaters that are in the right spots for your communication path, in times of public emergency, the folks that own/manage those repeaters will take them out of public use to handle the ongoing emergency. I can use several local repeaters here to get 35 mile coverage (perhaps) broadcasting from my handheld. But if the SHTF, those repeaters would not be available for me to call my wife. They would become "managed nets" with traffic limited to communications between the "manager" and "individuals" (like spokes on a wheel) with specific need to communicate emergency information.

[theJanitor]

RoyGBiv, yeah, I'm tracking on all the responses. I was just hoping I could throw money at this and come up with a solution. I'll probably take a class, for myself.

[Hambo]

[QUOTE=Drang;374728
Do not get caught using a means that requires a license without one unless there is an emergency. The FCC has no sense of humor.
[/QUOTE]

Not to derail things with my total ignorance, but how do they catch you?

[Drang]

Not to derail things with my total ignorance, but how do they catch you?

The FCC does have an enforcement division, although for hams they rely heavily on volunteers to police usage. If you keep a low profile they may not catch you. But if you never use a call sign, someone may report you. If you use a fake call sign, someone may look you up and realize you're not likely the person you claim to be.

[MEH]

Hams are very good at self policing. You will be noticed and you will be turned in. They were the original "hear something, say something" group. (I can say this cause I am one.)

[Drang]

Hams are very good at self policing. You will be noticed and you will be turned in. They were the original "hear something, say something" group. (I can say this cause I am one.)

JINX! :cool:

Honestly, the chances are that someone who is unlicensed is doing something besides just operating without a permission slip. (I.e., operating out of band or using an unauthorized mode, over legal output, causing interference with other activities, etc.)

[mtnbkr]

Hams are very good at self policing. You will be noticed and you will be turned in. They were the original "hear something, say something" group. (I can say this cause I am one.)

And they treat it as a sport. Some of the older guys, the ones with time on their hands, are hardcore about policing the bands and triangulating offenders.

Chris

[RJ]

Walking through Costco today, we saw this deal on a pair of Motorola FRS / GMRS radios. $60, typical Motorola operation. LED light, which is handy. And 11 NOAA Wx band channels.

We'll use them short range; just backing up the RV, or around the RV park, so less than a mile.

http://www.costco.com/Motorola-T461-Two-Way-Radio-2-pack.product.100221085.html

[Default.mp3]

If you're not worried about TEOTWAWKI, but merely localized disasters, would satellite comms suffice? If you don't need instantaneous replies, you could use something cheaper than a sat phone, like a Delorme InReach or a SPOT messenger.

[Kukuforguns]

Unless you live in the boonies, there likely is an amateur group in your area that would be eager to help you.

[Drang]

I'd like to get a pair of 2-way radios (I think...) for my wife and me to connect in the case of emergencies. We're never more than 35 miles apart, so I'm thinking the units with a 50-mile range is perfect. And if possible, I'd like for it to be standard battery powered (AA, CR123, etc), that way I can buy some lithium batts to keep with the radio.

Natural disasters here would include hurricanes, tsunamis, flash flooding, so water-resistance would be a huge plus.

The ability to scale up the system to include more family members would be a plus as well.

Does anyone have suggestions? or can you comment on what you're using?
Just saw this, might be a good alternative: goTenna | Text & GPS on your phone, even without service. (http://www.gotenna.com/)

[peterb]

Walking through Costco today, we saw this deal on a pair of Motorola FRS / GMRS radios. $60, typical Motorola operation. LED light, which is handy. And 11 NOAA Wx band channels.

We'll use them short range; just backing up the RV, or around the RV park, so less than a mile.


We found FRS radios to be very useful during our cross-country move a few years ago for U-Haul to car communication. And they're useful for situations where you're not far apart but you need a better way to communicate than yelling.

[eyemahm]

Just saw this, might be a good alternative: goTenna | Text & GPS on your phone, even without service. (http://www.gotenna.com/)
Interesting idea. I could see it having a lot of potential for certain applications.

Downside is that it has a range comparable to a 2w VHF radio, which would limit it to well under a mile in my neighborhood.

[Drang]

The blurb in the "nifty tech" section of whatever magazine I saw it in seemed to imply a 50 mile range. Looking at the web site, they say a more believable 4-5 miles, so it still does not meet the OP's needs.
The cool thing about this is you can send private (or group, or broadcast) text messages, and GPS locations on a map, with your cell phone, without cell service. (They have downloadable maps.)

[NETim]

UHF/VHF freqs can only be regarded as line of sight communications. RF energy at those frequencies do not follow the curve of the earth like HF.

Big antennas, located well above the earths surface are key. Handh led stuff just ain't going to cut it for any kind of distance.

[dbateman]

I'd like to get a pair of 2-way radios (I think...) for my wife and me to connect in the case of emergencies. We're never more than 35 miles apart, so I'm thinking the units with a 50-mile range is perfect. And if possible, I'd like for it to be standard battery powered (AA, CR123, etc), that way I can buy some lithium batts to keep with the radio.

Natural disasters here would include hurricanes, tsunamis, flash flooding, so water-resistance would be a huge plus.

The ability to scale up the system to include more family members would be a plus as well.

Does anyone have suggestions? or can you comment on what you're using?


What area are you in ? A city ?

We use handhelds a lot at work they are quite handy, but typically won't transmit or receive the distances you're looking for. Especially if you are in a big city with high buildings ect around.

If I wanted to do what you are looking to do I would buy handhelds but realise they are limited in what they can do, I would steer away from anything that takes batteries like the CR123 ect. I would just have a charging station at home, and one for in car use, you can get solar chargers if you're real worried. The radios we use even with fairly heavy use will last around 24 hr on a charge.

The other thing I would also do is have vehicle mounted radios and one at home as well. You can have them programmed (same for the handhelds) for your own channels
but A. they're not that private B. they're a pain in the ass if you want to talk to someone else, you will. C. it costs money and in most cases you need a licence to do it anyway. Find out if there are repeaters in your area, but be aware that you won't be the only person using them.


There are lot's of ways to do what you want but it cost quite a bit of money, I think you'd be better served with plane old UHF and a good plan.

The Ham radio suggestion is a good one also.