XS sights suck beyond 10 yards...

[JodyH]

Every time XS Big Dot sights are mentioned somebody says they're worthless beyond 10 yards and barely adequate inside 10.
Just for grins I made a couple quick videos today of me shooting my Walther PPS with XS Big Dot sights at a 10" plate at 50 yards.
First video is way cool because I was shooting all copper Black Hills Barnes Tac XP +P 115gr. JHP's and the sun was perfect for shining on the rounds all the way downrange.
I hit 4 out of 7 with the first rounds out of the pistol all day (6+1, straight out of my carry holster). Shot #4 that went high, that was all shitty trigger control.
The next magazine was RWS 124 FMJ ammo, I went 6 out of 7 hits with that magazine.
Big Dots are not the best sights in the world for long range precision shooting, but they are damn sure good enough for self defense.
I do prefer the Trijicon HD's because they do everything the XS do, but better. The only issue with HD's on my PPS is they have too many razor edges and pointy corners, they eat my shirts and my skin alive.
Would I prefer HD's or TFX Pro's? Yes.
Do I feel handicapped with XS Big Dots? No.

4547

Play this one full screen HD to see the bullets fly through the air.

http://youtu.be/8Xmef67jUGE


http://youtu.be/jGJBAsojgUQ

[JDM]

That first video is awesome!

[JodyH]

That first video is awesome!
Cool as hell isn't it.
Brand new shiny boolits and a bright winter day = awesome.

[JDM]

What's the weather like down there right now?

And on topic, for an HD gun that may be used by novice individuals, how would you rate the Big Dots? My kiddo will be 10 in a couple months, and soon thereafter will be responsible enough to have access to a gun in emergent situations. These sights seem like a good choice in that context.

[JodyH]

What's the weather like down there right now?

And on topic, for an HD gun that may be used by novice individuals, how would you rate the Big Dots? My kiddo will be 10 in a couple months, and soon thereafter will be responsible enough to have access to a gun in emergent situations. These sights seem like a good choice in that context.
At the range around noon it was 15mph wind and 38 degrees (45 degrees and 10mph wind now).

I'm a big fan of XS sights for new shooters and novices who aren't going to shoot very often.
It's easy to get them shooting IDPA -0's out to 10Y by just saying "put the big golf ball where you want the bullets to go and press the trigger".
No explanation about lining anything up, or equal light bars or anything, just "golf ball, press".
It also instills the importance of front sight focus and follow through on new shooters (just watch the "bouncing ball").
If I have a novice shooter in my CCW class that I know is just not "getting" sight alignment, I hand them a Glock 19 with Big Dots and they immediately make paper plate size groups out to 7 yards.
Paper plate (8"-10") groups at 7 doesn't sound impressive but before that just hitting a IDPA silhouette at 7 was beyond them...

Where XS tend to fall apart is with intermediate shooters who really need and benefit from the feedback that traditional sights give to call their shot and diagnose trigger control errors.
Once you have solid trigger control and can subconsciously call your shots you can return to XS without many negatives.

[Paladin]

Thanks for making this post Jody some great info here! I've used xs sights off and on now for a few years and like you prefer the HD's but also see a lot of value in the XS sights.
Rick

[Maple Syrup Actual]

Honestly if the rear sight was just a little different I think they'd be great for 95% of handgun shooters. I find them difficult to shoot with serious precision (although I'm sure that could be learned) but the number of people who are annoyed when they drop a point or two on dot torture is VASTLY outweighed by the people who are going to make a bullseye target look like a dot torture target with most sights.

They get slammed a lot and I don't own them myself but I think you have to shoot better than 99% of gun owners and 95% of shooters before they're a significant handicap.

[JodyH]

Cleaning "Dot Torture" at 7Y or cleaning the Tactical Response dot target at 3-5Y does require more concentration and more time with XS Big Dots than it does with {insert favorite notch/post sights here}, but on the 99 Drill my XS and HD scores are pretty much identical and the points down are usually due to fumbled reloads instead of sighting errors.

[DocSabo40]

For the love of all things good, I have no idea why Trijicon insists on having combination sights/kitchen knives. Seriously. The outside of the sight does not need sharp edges, just the notch.

Nice shooting Jody, at a brisk pace considering the distance too.

[camsdaddy]

Currently running HD's and am about tired of being cut. When people say they are not accurate I wonder to what extent? Are they as accurate as standard ramp sights on a fixed sighted revolver? Are they as accurate as standard trijicon night sights? I hear none are as accurate as the thin blade front sights so just curious how the "inaccurate sights" compare

[Gray222]

My g17l shoots well with xs suppressor height big dots.

[MGW]

Thanks for the vid Jody. I out big dots on a Glock 30 a few years ago. That pistol went away when I switched to 9mm for carry. I remember thinking the sights were okay but I was coming from shooting mostly bullseye. Not having light bars as a frame of reference at the time drove me crazy. I think mostly I was trying to make the sights be something they were not designed to be.

It seems like I read before that someone was pairing big dot fronts with a 10-8 rear and having good results. I'll see if I can dig that up. I suffered a concussion and orbital bone fracture today so who knows if I'm remembering that correctly or not.

About HD's, are they all that sharp or is it something in particular about the PPS sights? I don't normally order holsters with a full sweat guard. Sharp sights and me wouldn't get along.

[JodyH]

My PPS HD's are considerably sharper and pointy'er than any of my H&K HD's.

[DEG]

My PPS HD's are considerably sharper and pointy'er than any of my H&K HD's.

Similar to my experience as well. HDs on three HK P30s are smooth and rounded, while the G19s needed sanding.

[ranger]

I just came home from range - I scored some new XS night sights for my G42 off eBay for $45. Put them on last week and shot the G42 with the XS sights today. They shot well and I think are a perfect sight for a G42 380 pocket pistol.

[Tamara]

Every time XS Big Dot sights are mentioned somebody says they're worthless beyond 10 yards and barely adequate inside 10.

I wouldn't say that. I would say that they don't seem to offer me any speed advantage over HD/CAP/et al sights on wide-open shots and cost me a speed disadvantage on tight ones.

I used to be a big fan but, while I could still make my hits at range, I was measurably slower, and I ain't got any speed to lose. :(

[23JAZ]

I'm gonna go with Tam on this one. I'll take my I-Dot Pros with U rear notch over XS and HDs all day everyday.


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[BehindBlueI's]

At the range around noon it was 15mph wind and 38 degrees (45 degrees and 10mph wind now).

I'm a big fan of XS sights for new shooters and novices who aren't going to shoot very often.
It's easy to get them shooting IDPA -0's out to 10Y by just saying "put the big golf ball where you want the bullets to go and press the trigger".
No explanation about lining anything up, or equal light bars or anything, just "golf ball, press".


At that point, aren't you basically teaching point shooting? Seriously, have you tried having them shoot a pistol with no sights at all, just lining up the slide, and see the difference?

Our range teaches sight alignment to countless people who've never held a handgun before. Cardboard cut outs and pictures seem to make even the dullest of dullards understand what they should be seeing.

I'm certainly not discounting some people can use them well. I just note that even the pro-XS argument tends to be "they aren't as good as....(insert whatever here)."

[45dotACP]

I'd be interested in seeing the results from some changing gears type drills...both from a more accuracy--> less accuracy required and a less accuracy--->more accuracy continuum as well as some 25 yard groups and see how it compares to a traditional sight setup....

Can't be worse than the factory glock sights ;)

[Maple Syrup Actual]

Can't be worse than the factory glock sights ;)

You know, everybody pounds on the Glock factory sights but the do exactly what they're supposed to. My dovetail and front sight groove were MINT.

[spinmove_]

Is it possible to take a file to the Trijicon HDs to kind of "de-horn" the sharp parts? Kinda glad I didn't end up going with HDs the last time I bought sights and this might prevent me from buying them in the future.

[Luke]

Is it possible to take a file to the Trijicon HDs to kind of "de-horn" the sharp parts? Kinda glad I didn't end up going with HDs the last time I bought sights and this might prevent me from buying them in the future.

I think you should try them before you write them off. I never was bothered by mine (carry only IWB too). They are very awesome sights, and if they do bother you there is 100 different ways you could make them not sharp.

[JodyH]

Is it possible to take a file to the Trijicon HDs to kind of "de-horn" the sharp parts? Kinda glad I didn't end up going with HDs the last time I bought sights and this might prevent me from buying them in the future.
I used a coarse diamond file to break the edges and some cold blue to blacken them back up on my one PPS set.
It made them better but they still eat shirts.
Ameriglo has several HD'ish options that aren't nearly as sharp, might look into them as well.

[JodyH]

First post:

I do prefer the Trijicon HD's because they do everything the XS do, but better. The only issue with HD's on my PPS is they have too many razor edges and pointy corners, they eat my shirts and my skin alive.
Would I prefer HD's or TFX Pro's? Yes.
Do I feel handicapped with XS Big Dots? No.
I'm not cheerleading for XS, just throwing it out there that if you can't make good hits with them at speed... it's the Indian not the arrow.

[JodyH]

At that point, aren't you basically teaching point shooting? Seriously, have you tried having them shoot a pistol with no sights at all, just lining up the slide, and see the difference?
Not really. I'm not a fan of starting people out on target focus, slide silhouette aiming.
I like XS sights because later on it's much easier to transition from using a somewhat crude sight picture to a refined sight picture.
I still have them focus on the front sight, it's just a much larger front sight that's easier to track.

[MGW]

Not really. I'm not a fan of starting people out on target focus, slide silhouette aiming.
I like XS sights because later on it's much easier to transition from using a somewhat crude sight picture to a refined sight picture.
I still have them focus on the front sight, it's just a much larger front sight that's easier to track.

I like your thought process. Really seems like a great way to teach new shooters.

[jslaughter]

Sights are subjective and very personal. I think they are over thought these days, because there are so many options. I personally like three sights in no order: HD's, XS, and Warrens with the plain rear. Sights are just a reference, it's your trigger control that makes your hits. watch old guys that are great shooters they'll tell you the sight (both front and rear) are a blur, yet they'll out shoot you with perfect vision.
How I break it down is sub compact, G43/G26 get XS big dots. The duty carry, VP9/G17 get Orange HD's. XS and HD's are the best COMBAT sights out there IMHO.
I also hate how sharp the HD's rears are and there angle makes it even worse.
I carry appendix so the HD issue really hurts and I to have holes in my shirts.
I love big dots and they have a place with me.

[Chuck Whitlock]

I wouldn't say that. I would say that they don't seem to offer me any speed advantage over HD/CAP/et al sights on wide-open shots and cost me a speed disadvantage on tight ones.

I used to be a big fan but, while I could still make my hits at range, I was measurably slower, and I ain't got any speed to lose. :(

I concur, but with the reminder that the Big Dots predate the HDs and CAPs....mine were marked "AO" instead of "XS". I use the latter now, but I've been thinking that BDs might be the ticket for people like my parents, who aren't really ever going to be "shooters" but recognize a gun's utility for defense.

[M2CattleCo]

I tried the Big Dots a long time ago and I couldn't do anything with 'em. I was a decent USPSA and IDPA shooter back then and those sights were horrible. Very slow and difficult to use. I've run the gamut and now just use the night sights that came on my carry Glocks.

[GJM]

As I recall, some years ago, Gunsite paired an Ashley small dot front with a opened up Novak rear sight, and called them old man sights, or something to that effect. Pre Hack/HD, that seemed a reasonable accommodation for mature eyes, but today I would take a Hack or HD sight set instead.

If I felt liked I needed a big dot front to see it, I would go with a RDS instead. If the need for the big dot front was for a skill deficiency, as opposed to a vision deficiency, there probably is a solution for that.

[Gadfly]

To each his own...

I can make XS work. But to me they are slower and sloppier than most other sights. If they are all I had I could make due, but they would never be my first, second or third choice.

I have HDs on my 17, and TFOs on my 26. Both carried IWB most of the time. Never really had a problem with the sights tearing up my shirts, and the sweat guard on my holster projects my love handles. The only times my sights were a problem was ankle carry. Rear sights tear little jokes in my jeans over time.

Different folks get different results. That was some damn good shooting at 50yrd with those sights.

[MGW]

As I recall, some years ago, Gunsite paired an Ashley small dot front with a opened up Novak rear sight, and called them old man sights, or something to that effect. Pre Hack/HD, that seemed a reasonable accommodation for mature eyes, but today I would take a Hack or HD sight set instead.

If I felt liked I needed a big dot front to see it, I would go with a RDS instead. If the need for the big dot front was for a skill deficiency, as opposed to a vision deficiency, there probably is a solution for that.

That's the exact article I was thinking of. I found the link if anyone is interested. Nothing earth shattering in the article. The short summary is high visible front sights paired with a low key rear sight are easier to pick up quickly.

[Dave Williams]

Novak has a half ghost with a tritium dot at the bottom. I thought teamed with a Big Dot front it'd be a nice set up for someone like me who can't see well.

[Moonshot]

Since I started wearing bifocals I find I can pick up a front dot placed over a rear vertical line (dot the i) faster and cleaner than I can pick up a front dot that needs to be placed within two rear dots.

This is even more true if I am not wearing my glasses. I practice with and without my glasses (as I might lose my glasses when I have a need for my gun), and Big Dots are much easier in this situation.

When I had 20/20 vision, 3-dot sights were great, but now I need something else. When I adopt a shooting stance, it's too uncomfortable and too unnatural to try and lean my head back to view the front sight with the "reading" porting of my glasses, and getting specialty glasses is not an option - I need to be able to use whatever glasses I am wearing, or no glasses at all.

It might be harder to achieve great combat accuracy with Big Dots, but it's not impossible. Like the OP said - it's the indian not the arrow.

For me, with my eyesight, Big Dots allow for a rapid sight picture, combat accuracy (I recently shot a 288/300 on a qualification course with my G26), and most importantly - they work even without my glasses. I do see the limitations of the Big Dot (no pun intended), and better sights might have let me shoot a perfect 300, so I am considering different sights, but again - they must work even without my glasses.

Any suggestions?

[JodyH]

Ameriglo ProGlo square (https://www.ameriglo.net/sights) is the highest visibility front sight you can buy without the razor sharp edges on the HD's.
On my Glock 26 it's paired up with a standard notch rear with yellow tritium.
The CAP rear is also good.