Leather Holster Retention

[Cool Breeze]

I've may have caught the bug to get a leather holster for strong side carry. I don't know which one I want to get yet but was curious at the different designs and what causes retention. Also, one thing I love about kydex is that click it gives me when the gun is fully seated. Is that possible with leather and if so is there anything I should look for that specifically causes that click or specifics brands that do that vs. others. I was looking at the Rosen 5JR vs. the 5JR express - the 5JR exp has no boning and doesn't have the "indent" (for lack of a better word) in the trigger guard. Is it the boning that causes better retention and/or the "click" or is it something else? Does boning have any effect on retention? Rosen standard models have indents on trigger guard, 5-shot leathers have the indent on the trigger guard, High-noon does, milt sparks does, JRC looks like it has it on some models, Kramer doesn't, Alessi does. I mention those specific manufacturers because they are either well regarded on this forum or they make holsters in horsehide which seems to be thinner and more concealable. I still haven't figure out if that matters to me. Anyways anyone have any thoughts on this?

For quick reference one example:
5JR - Regular
4518
5JR - Express
4519

ETA - the boning also looks like it is deeper around the ejection port too - not sure if this has any effect either.

[JRCHolsters]

A lot of my holsters click in place. It depends more on the gun I am molding for than the holster. I mold a lot of retention in to the ejection ports for all Automatics. The trigger guard varies on certain models. I have gotten away from heavily indenting Glocks, M&P's, etc. They all have molding, but not as deep as others. I like to typically do heavy boning since I use Horsehide, though some pistols like the Glock are just drab blocks that you can only do so much molding wise, other than to crease in lines. That said, if you look inside the holster, you will still see fine molding and a good tight fit. Once broken in, they can be lightning fast and still have great retention.

It should also be noted that there will always be a retention difference with just the gun in the holster, shaking it around(to show off how tight it is) and the combo mounted on a secure belt.
I can't speak for others, but I don't subscribe to the standard 50/50 pancake or the flat back/front molded type. I mold mine so that the slide and sight channel are heavily molded on the front panel and the trigger guard area is heavily molded on the back, essentially twisting the pistol, so the grip pulls into the body. This is one of the reasons some of my rigs appear not to have a close stitch line on the front, it is to make room on the backside, where the stitch line pulls in closer.

Hope this helps, though we all have our little ways of doing things.

[Cool Breeze]

A lot of my holsters click in place. It depends more on the gun I am molding for than the holster. I mold a lot of retention in to the ejection ports for all Automatics. The trigger guard varies on certain models. I have gotten away from heavily indenting Glocks, M&P's, etc. They all have molding, but not as deep as others. I like to typically do heavy boning since I use Horsehide, though some pistols like the Glock are just drab blocks that you can only do so much molding wise, other than to crease in lines. That said, if you look inside the holster, you will still see fine molding and a good tight fit. Once broken in, they can be lightning fast and still have great retention.

It should also be noted that there will always be a retention difference with just the gun in the holster, shaking it around(to show off how tight it is) and the combo mounted on a secure belt.
I can't speak for others, but I don't subscribe to the standard 50/50 pancake or the flat back/front molded type. I mold mine so that the slide and sight channel are heavily molded on the front panel and the trigger guard area is heavily molded on the back, essentially twisting the pistol, so the grip pulls into the body. This is one of the reasons some of my rigs appear not to have a close stitch line on the front, it is to make room on the backside, where the stitch line pulls in closer.

Hope this helps, though we all have our little ways of doing things.

JRC - thanks for the reply - It was actually your promotion that got me thinking about this. I have glocks and currently use a Fricke Gideon or a Raven for OWB. Both are different. The way you stitch is an interesting way of doing it. I know high-noon won't offer anything like that or traditional offset because they claim it is less concealable and offers less retention. Galco claims the opposite. Mitch Rosen's 5JR is traditional while their President is offset which they claim is more comfortable. Confusing!

For me however, I have a 32 inch waist and both the raven or fricke are not really that concealable. I've more or less ditched the Raven because for me it was pressing so much against my hip bone it was painful. Because it is has such a wide (non-flexing) body and the fact I have a thin waist, the only part of the holster that touched my body was the inch or so of of the slide molding and the rest left huge gaps of air (no matter what config of the wings I did). Since the body of the holster didn't flex and pressure of the belt pulling the holster tight against my body was concentrated on an inch of space causing it to be pretty uncomfortable. I was hoping some type of offset either modified or full would alleviate that pain or discomfort. I willing to sacrifice concealment for comfort at this point. I am not sure if I explained this correctly.

Do you think one of your OWB holsters conceal better or is more comfortable than the rest for the slender guy like me? Also do your Glock holsters click?

[JRCHolsters]

JRC - thanks for the reply - It was actually your promotion that got me thinking about this. I have glocks and currently use a Fricke Gideon or a Raven for OWB. Both are different. The way you stitch is an interesting way of doing it. I know high-noon won't offer anything like that or traditional offset because they claim it is less concealable and offers less retention. Galco claims the opposite. Mitch Rosen's 5JR is traditional while their President is offset which they claim is more comfortable. Confusing!

For me however, I have a 32 inch waist and both the raven or fricke are not really that concealable. I've more or less ditched the Raven because for me it was pressing so much against my hip bone it was painful. Because it is has such a wide (non-flexing) body and the fact I have a thin waist, the only part of the holster that touched my body was the inch or so of of the slide molding and the rest left huge gaps of air (no matter what config of the wings I did). Since the body of the holster didn't flex and pressure of the belt pulling the holster tight against my body was concentrated on an inch of space causing it to be pretty uncomfortable. I was hoping some type of offset either modified or full would alleviate that pain or discomfort. I willing to sacrifice concealment for comfort at this point. I am not sure if I explained this correctly.

Do you think one of your OWB holsters conceal better or is more comfortable than the rest for the slender guy like me? Also do your Glock holsters click?

It does seem confusing with the other makers making different claims about which construction style is best. The thing of it is, they are all right to some degree because every customer is going to be different. As a custom maker, you have to look at each customer's needs and find the rig that is going to work best for them. This includes modifying designs when the need arises. Henceforth the term custom.

I would need to now more about how you want to carry, position, your height and how your pants position(waist or hips) Not knowing any of this, I will throw 3 different holsters out there that could work for a small waisted person. Getting away from the pancake design, the SSA takes up minimal space, can ride between 2 o'clock and 3:30 comfortably and is lightning fast. Back to the pancake style, the BS-SS is a good rig that conforms to your body and can be molded to rake anywhere from 0-25 degrees depending on where you want to wear it. If something like a high ride works for you, the HR-1 is a modified pancake that takes up minimal space, yet forms to your body well. It tapers to the front, allowing the muzzle to break leather quicker. It typically comes in 15 or 25 degree rakes. All three holsters are molded to draw the grip of the gun in to your body. All three can have the "click" you desire. All three are very comfortable holsters, based on where you decide to wear them and the rake angle you choose.
That is just off the top of my head, based on regular models. I can modify anything to your specific needs or even come up with something completely off book for you. Hope this helps.

[JTQ]

I also appreciate the "click" into place you get with kydex. I have a High Noon Slide Guard in cowhide, it is a very nice holster, it doesn't do that, but I wasn't expecting it to either. I have heard some say Rosen holsters do that, but I have no experience with them.

I also have a Raven Phantom and Fricke Gideon for a 1911. A lot depends on where you intend to wear your holster. With a small waist like you have, you really can't wear the Phantom at 3:00, it that's what you've been trying. You need to move it farther back where you'll have more flat space. Of course it is possible with your small waist size you simply won't have enough flat space for a kydex pancake to work properly. One of my favorite web pictures is a guy with a 30" - 32" waist trying to wear his Phantom IWB with a G27 at 3:00. It was pretty funny with the huge gaps the holster caused inside the pants because it is so wide and doesn't bend.

Slim guys often benefit from the wraparound/Bruce Nelson #1 Professional/Avenger style as they typically take up less belt real-estate. More cant (the Gideon is typically straight drop, and standard Phantom is only 10 degrees) will usually help concealment for a slim guy as you can get the grip more vertical and less likely to stick out the back since you don't have much front to back depth.

Here's another data point for you on holster design from Horseshoe Leather. Note the comment about pancakes and wide bodied guns like the Glock. It's not my claim, so forum members don't argue with me, I'm just relaying the information. http://www.holsters.org/holster-design.htm

[JTQ]

I forgot to comment on your title "Leather Holster Retention", which you didn't directly talk about in your post.

In my small experience, leather holsters have better retention than kydex even though there is no click into place. Kydex has good, often great retention, but it typically is only for about 1/4" of movement. Once you break that point, a gun practically will jump out out of a kydex holster. Leather will give more hold through a longer distance. You can hold both leather and kydex holsters upside down and your gun isn't going to fall out of either.

Here is a video from the late Paul Gomez on concealed carry gear where he spends a little time talking about the leather retention advantage. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DF7VbYh9Qqk

[farscott]

In my experience, the shape of the trigger guard is what determines if there is a audible/tactile click when the gun is fully seated in a properly formed leather holster. Guns like the 1911 never provide a click while the P30 provides very nice tactile and audible feedback. I have multiple VM-2 holsters for both guns, and the P30 models provide feedback while the 1911 models do not.

I prefer leather for IWB usage as I find it more comfortable because it yields more than kydex. One advantage of kydex is that it does not retain moisture the way leather does. The weak point for holsters made of kydex appears to be the hardware attachments while leather suffers from rotting if not maintained, especially where the fasteners attach. I always have issues with verdigris near the hardware with leather holsters, and I swap holsters on a daily basis.

[Cool Breeze]

Thanks all for your input.

JTQ - Jim at JRC also recommended the nelson avenger style after a lengthy convo over the phone (great guy btw - Thanks Jim!!!!). I ordered an SSA (Nelson #1 / Avenger style) from JRC Holsters. Can't wait to try it out!

[dieselscout80]

I always have issues with verdigris near the hardware with leather holsters, and I swap holsters on a daily basis.

Is this to let a leather holster dry?

[M2CattleCo]

I have a 31" waist and pancake holsters never worked for me. They pull too tight and are extremely uncomfortable, and it makes the holster way too tight to draw the pistol from.

I know all the hand boning looks cool, but does nothing for functionality and winds up making the holster too tight to use. Then it has to be stretched out with a plastic sack and then it winds up shrinking back and is a forever PITA. I've been through it with Milt Sparks, Alessi, Brommeland, and 5-Shot.

Never again with leather.

[BaiHu]

I have a 31" waist and pancake holsters never worked for me. They pull too tight and are extremely uncomfortable, and it makes the holster way too tight to draw the pistol from.

I know all the hand boning looks cool, but does nothing for functionality and winds up making the holster too tight to use. Then it has to be stretched out with a plastic sack and then it winds up shrinking back and is a forever PITA. I've been through it with Milt Sparks, Alessi, Brommeland, and 5-Shot.

Never again with leather.
Maybe it's your holster position and not the holster? Or maybe it's your body shape to holster maker and not a leather vs kydex issue?

I use a JRC AIWB (P30) currently and I've carried kydex (Keepers) in the past. Both are great, but for me, I love leather. FYI: 5'6" 135# and 30" waist.

[runcible]

Leading with that I both avoid leather gear and don't work in that medium...

Depending on how it's put together, the retention characteristics of leather rigs seem to increase when off-axis forces are applied to the weapon. By off-axis, I mean most anything other then straight in or straight out movements of the weapon to and from the holster. Thumbbreak rigs are often relatively loose fit once released, so they're not the best example; but pancake hip rigs or those with metal stiffeners inside really seem to demonstrate this well. Boning seems to add some to that, but how much is beyond my men. My hypothesis is that it has to do with the depth and yeilding quality of the leather, allowing the weapon's various surfaces to dig into them during a coarse takeaway attempt.

Short version: while not my bag, leather has positive retention characteristics that other materials may not.

[farscott]

Is this to let a leather holster dry?

Yes, the purpose of swapping holsters is to let the holster dry, either from sweat or from rain/snow. Two holsters swapped daily last much longer than two holsters solely used until no longer fit for service.