Non Firing hand, lock out and failure to lock back

[imp1295]

So I just attended John McPhee's one day pistol diagnostic. I learned quite a bit from the video analysis. One thing that came about was that John recommended I go to a full wrist lock and get a bit higher on the gun.

In concert with locking the elbow of my non firing arm helped to manage recoil. But, I now hardly get any type of lock back on an empty magazine. I'm using the slim slide lock levers on the P2000, and my grip is high enough that I get an indentation along the meaty part of my SH thumb that looks like it is causing a failure to lock back.

John worked with me one on one to try and address the issue. But, in the end, determined that with this particular platform and the grip he advocates a failure to lock back is something I just may just have to accept.

Previously nyeti and Wayne at their HiTS class last March acknowledged my adjusted support hand and accepted it as an accommodation I had made to get the slide to lock back.

I know others here don't place as high of a priority on the slide locking back on an empty magazine. But, I'm curious as to other opinions.

I haven't really had enough chance to see much of an improvement just yet in follow ups and split times. I typically run a Vickers Test at around mid to low 90s and around 7-8 seconds.

Should I gather more data on splits with this adjusted grip before making a determination? Or, given that my splits may only see marginal improvement and the slide will likely not lock back should adjust my grip to try and get reliable lock back of the slide?

Thanks

Here is one of the videos John took showing my grip prior to his adjustments and during the evaluation.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FbovsRDgtck&feature=youtu.be

[Mr_White]

I can't see the video, it's private.

[imp1295]

Rookie mistake. Fixed it. I think...

[LSP552]

Personally, I like a grip that doesn't interfere with a gun's operations. Everyone is a bit different, and some platforms can require a deviation from theoretical better Splits are just one small factor of overall gun handling. Are there other differences? For me personally, consistency and accuracy are much bigger issues than slightly increased spit time. I won't blindly accept what anyone tells me is better because what works for them might not work the same for me. I'm a believer in testing things completely and then weight the positives and negatives.

[RJ]

Can't comment, but wanted to say thanks for taking the time to post the video; I appreciate it.

[Luke]

I can't help with any advice either but wanted to comment.

1. That video is really really cool. Id love to read a AAR, I've always wanted to take his diagnostic class.

2. Love the 3/4 sleeve. I'm getting close to being done with my sleeve. Love to see a fellow PF member with tattoos.

[scw2]

Do most shooters lock their elbows? I thought that it was recommended NOT to do that when shooting 2H.

[Mr_White]

That video analysis is pretty cool.

I'd have suggested a lot of the same things he did, but with a few differences:

Keep both your wrists stiffer
Tighter support hand grip
Roll elbows up and out a bit more
More upright head, less ducking/turtling

I would not suggest locking the elbows, or the push-pull grip. I also have no issue if those work better or are more comfortable.

What kind of splits are you getting in a plain old Bill Drill? Just looking for a familiar reference that heavily involves recoil management.

There is more to faster splits than controlling recoil. That's definitely part of it, but there are a few parts that fit together to produce split times - recoil control, vision/mind/sights, and trigger. Recoil control by itself is good but not the end all be all. Crushing grip pressures and getting higher/more forward on the gun can be good by increasing recoil control but they can also introduce other issues, like the slide not locking back when the gun is empty.

If I understand you correctly, your slide was locking back on empty magazines when you were using the structure shown in the video, right? If so, I'd maybe look at tightening that up without making whatever structural change is making the slide fail to lock back. And do compare the splits you get with different adjustments. Maybe the changes John McPhee suggested will be so effective at dampening the recoil that it will be worth sacrificing the slide locking back. What do your times and targets say?

[JMS]

If you listen to the audio, he never once tells him to "lock" any one part, but that the combination of corrections will aid in locking his whole framework.

1:40 "What it's gonna do is lock that arm..."

...and a couple of other instances between that time hack and 1:55 where SOB's describing "lock" as an effect.

[imp1295]

Gabe/JMS et al,
Thanks for the feedback. Regarding my latest Bill Drill (with previous grip/stance etc prior to the class) my last recorded times form 9/18/15 are P2-3.17 with splits around mid .40s to .50. So, I can obviously work on these here. I will say that something Gabe mentions "vision/mind/sights" has been a big focus of mine. This is because when switching over to Trijicon HDs with the P2000 I notice that my confirmation of the sights take longer than say with a narrow Fiber Optic front sight.

Regarding the locking of elbows. At about 2:37 I specifically ask John if I should "lock both elbows" and he responds in the affirmative. This was reinforced later in the day with one on one review of the "Look, Shoot, Look" drill where we transitioned between three targets and tried to increase of rate of fire as fast as we could. After this Drill John critiqued that I was "Shooting only as fast as I could not miss". I saw this as likely as over the course of training with Tom Givens, DB and Wayne it has been beaten into my skull to confirm each shot. Of course, a side effect of this could be that subconsciously I'm so concerned with missing that I may take an extra .10 to .20 to really confirm my sights prior to breaking the next shot.

I guess it is something I can look to improve and try and go to failure, not be afraid to fail during practice and then back it up a bit.

Again, thanks for the feedback on all of it. There are three other videos that John provides, in a similar format, that go over stance, presentation and a reload. When I get this next paper for school knocked out I plan on compiling my notes and writing an AAR - should be sometime around Thanksgiving given my current load at school.

[JMS]

Aw hell, completely missed it...

[Mr_White]

Gabe/JMS et al,
Thanks for the feedback. Regarding my latest Bill Drill (with previous grip/stance etc prior to the class) my last recorded times form 9/18/15 are P2-3.17 with splits around mid .40s to .50. So, I can obviously work on these here. I will say that something Gabe mentions "vision/mind/sights" has been a big focus of mine. This is because when switching over to Trijicon HDs with the P2000 I notice that my confirmation of the sights take longer than say with a narrow Fiber Optic front sight.

That's where I really think you'll get elements of improvement from all three of those big areas: grip/platform/recoil management, vision/mind/sights, and trigger.

Better recoil management means the gun moves less, and like John said in the video, might help the vision/mind/sights element as a result, and strictly speaking, the gun will be back on target sooner. That doesn't necessarily mean your vision will work that fast, though it certainly may help enable it. And better grip/platform may also assist trigger control by stabilizing the gun better, but it isn't going to improve the trigger press itself.

Better vision/mind/sights interaction lets you aim with more precision and certainty, and commence with firing a shot at the earliest possible time (when you saw the front sight coming back into position.)

Better trigger pressing is going to let you shoot more accurately at a given pace.

They all help each other and can all hold each other back. One could have excellent recoil control and vision/mind on the sights, but a so-so trigger press that takes .5 seconds to execute. The trigger press will be the limiting factor in that person's example. It can work out for differently for different people with different strengths and weaknesses.


John critiqued that I was "Shooting only as fast as I could not miss". I saw this as likely as over the course of training with Tom Givens, DB and Wayne it has been beaten into my skull to confirm each shot. Of course, a side effect of this could be that subconsciously I'm so concerned with missing that I may take an extra .10 to .20 to really confirm my sights prior to breaking the next shot.

I guess it is something I can look to improve and try and go to failure, not be afraid to fail during practice and then back it up a bit.

I don't think there is anything really wrong with any of that, and I bolded the part that I really agree with. I think you need to stay in tune with your 'on demand/match pace/it matters' manner of shooting. I think everyone basically agrees on that part. Where the disagreement seems to happen historically on PF is in how to best improve the on demand level of performance. Some emphasize practicing in that specific manner to ingrain it so no other manner of shooting bubbles to the surface when it does manner. Others emphasize driving technical skills harder in practice, to include to failure, in order to improve the entire range of performance, which includes on demand shooting. I'm more in the latter camp and I do think you will build an overall higher level of skill by pushing in practice, but I also think that you should do specific work in the on demand/match pace/it matters mode. That is how you should shoot when it counts.

[Rex G]

Very interesting; thanks for posting this! I should probably sign-up for a similar diagnostic of my technique, which I know is full of issues. Until recently, I used small revolvers, often Magnum snubbies, so much that I did not point my thumbs at the target, in order to avoid a blow-torch burn injury of the support-side thumb. I adopted thumbs-forward when moving to mostly 9mm Glocks, but it has been largely self-taught.

[YVK]

I know others here don't place as high of a priority on the slide locking back on an empty magazine. But, I'm curious as to other opinions.


P series slide release levers are huge, comparatively speaking. Even slim ones are. I have had the same problem as you do especially when used to wrap my support side index finger around the bottom of trigger guard (even higher position of support hand). This is one of situations where a technique that was developed on Glocks adn MPs doesn't work as well on Hks.
Slide stop levers on my carry P30 are both cut in length and filed down in thickness. Works for me.

[imp1295]

The slide levers on the P30 are like diving platforms compared to the slim levers on the P2000. Taking all the advice I'm going to go ahead and accept the inconsistent slide lock back for now and work through the changes for the next 6 weeks and then re-evaluate my performance before I make the final decision.

Of course, the gadget might through this all for a loop!