View Full Version : French LE weapon choices
Following the coverage of the Paris events, I have seen a number of photographs of French LE members, toting a pretty eclectic group of weapons. Mini 14, small full auto pistols, and Sig 2022 pistols. Is it just me, or does it mostly look like a pile of crap?
MD7305
11-19-2015, 07:56 AM
Lots of Beretta M12 subguns.
RevolverRob
11-19-2015, 08:03 AM
Depends on the units in question. Gendarmerie (State Police) are issued Sig 2022 Pros as sidearms. For long arms the French picked the Mini-14 like four decades ago and because they haven't seen a need, they haven't replaced them. There are also a number of surplus French .Mil weapons floating around too. Given the heightened state, I'm sure whatever is available is being pressed into service (including a bunch of FAMAS).
RAID and GIGN units have a much broader selection of equipment. Pistol wise the Glock 17/19 is now ubiquitous (although some folks are still packing MR73s in .357 Magnum), rifles are a whole cross-section, but a lot of them are transitioning to HK416s. That said, there are still a lot of HKs of various flavors (MP5s, G3s, G36s, etc.). And the occasional shotgun (Remington 870s and Benelli M4s).
Regarding the military, the FAMAS is still extant and unfortunately still common in the original F1 variant that is pretty terrible. Although, now the French may actually do something about replacing the FAMAS, as they prepare for general deployments. They announced some like three-four years ago they wanted to select a new rifle, but it seems like it stalled out for political reasons. My guess is they pick the HK416 and start issuing it across the board. I'd look for the eclectic "pile of crap" that they have accumulated over the past 50 years to be replaced. The "crap" will get shipped off to some French protectorate someplace else (Djibouti, La Reunion, French Guiana, etc.).
-Rob
There's a picture going around this morning of French SRT guys with revolvers. That's pretty interesting.
http://i250.photobucket.com/albums/gg251/GJMandes/image_zpszbdewhxc.jpeg (http://s250.photobucket.com/user/GJMandes/media/image_zpszbdewhxc.jpeg.html)
http://i250.photobucket.com/albums/gg251/GJMandes/image_zpsripyywan.jpeg (http://s250.photobucket.com/user/GJMandes/media/image_zpsripyywan.jpeg.html)
Dagga Boy
11-19-2015, 08:18 AM
There's a picture going around this morning of French SRT guys with revolvers. That's pretty interesting.
I have it from very good sources that one of the places you never want to be is in front of a GIGN member with an MR73. While they have gone with Glocks like most, they are well known to do very good work with their .357's. If some of their folks are still carrying them, it is likely a choice, and they are likely machines with them.
Nephrology
11-19-2015, 09:57 AM
I have it from very good sources that one of the places you never want to be is in front of a GIGN member with an MR73. While they have gone with Glocks like most, they are well known to do very good work with their .357's. If some of their folks are still carrying them, it is likely a choice, and they are likely machines with them.
The MR73 is my white whale. One day I will have one.
re: Police, when I was living in Paris the Gendarmerie all had SigPros and the Army patrols all had FAMASes. Never saw quite the amount of hardware we are seeing in the news now but what RevolverRob said above seems pretty accurate to me.
RevolverRob
11-19-2015, 11:08 AM
There's a picture going around this morning of French SRT guys with revolvers. That's pretty interesting.
Manurhin MR73 - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manurhin_MR_73 - One beautiful revolver.
I have it from very good sources that one of the places you never want to be is in front of a GIGN member with an MR73. While they have gone with Glocks like most, they are well known to do very good work with their .357's. If some of their folks are still carrying them, it is likely a choice, and they are likely machines with them.
I want one so bad.
The MR73 is my white whale. One day I will have one.
I've missed out of three MR73s. I swear, I won't miss out on the next one. FYI - for those revolver obsessed geeks out there (Nyeti looking at you, man) - Chapuis Armes does have retailers in the U.S. - Ostensibly, that means part of the Manurhin range of revolvers is available here: http://www.chapuis-armes.com/modules/presta_retails/prestaretails.php
I have to admit myself that I am not only lusting hard for an MR73, but also one of these: http://www.chapuis-armes.com/progress-side-by-side-double-rifles/14-carabines-modele-ugex.html in 9.3x74mmR - Because by god, if you're going to hunt white whales...you might as well do it with a double-barrel express rifle.
-Rob
Rob: While I might disagree with your understanding of history, I very much agree with you on the MR73. It is an unbelievably good revolver in what I regard as the best overall revolver caliber. I have been looking for one for years.
http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/11/19/2172d3e833014ad4954d902b5f22ee6a.jpg
http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/11/19/c7a5b1dd2efed2e2d43a5eba86fbbecf.jpg
Wondering Beard
11-19-2015, 11:46 AM
re: Police, when I was living in Paris the Gendarmerie all had SigPros and the Army patrols all had FAMASes. Never saw quite the amount of hardware we are seeing in the news now but what RevolverRob said above seems pretty accurate to me.
Agreed
okie john
11-19-2015, 02:04 PM
http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/11/19/c7a5b1dd2efed2e2d43a5eba86fbbecf.jpg
The guy in front is going to need some serious ear pro if the guy behind him pops a cap like that.
Okie John
Default.mp3
11-19-2015, 02:13 PM
Why do European tactical teams often utilize helmet face shields/visors, but I rarely see them in the USA outside of the riot control context?
Le Français
11-19-2015, 02:18 PM
The GIGN does pride itself in good revolver shooting, and gendarmes in full gear will often carry several handguns, including a revolver. They also use Glocks in 9mm and the Sig 226.
The Gendarmerie Nationale (which GIGN is part of and which functions somewhat like a state police agency in the U.S. covering highways and rural areas) issues the SP2022 as the standard handgun.
So does the Police Nationale, which covers urban areas and which comprises the RAID (recherche, assistance, intervention, dissuasion) tactical team.
It was the RAID, not the GIGN, that took a lead role in recent events.
The GIGN does pride itself in good revolver shooting, and gendarmes in full gear will often carry several handguns, including a revolver. They also use Glocks in 9mm and the Sig 226.
The Gendarmerie Nationale (which GIGN is part of and which functions somewhat like a state police agency in the U.S. covering highways and rural areas) issues the SP2022 as the standard handgun.
So does the Police Nationale, which covers urban areas and which comprises the RAID (recherche, assistance, intervention, dissuasion) tactical team.
It was the RAID, not the GIGN, that took a lead role in recent events.
This^^^^. RAID. and I believe BRI, are part of the Police Nationale. The Gendarmarie Nationale it's considered part of the Armed Forces though they mostly perform law-enforcement functions. Sort of like the US Coast Guard. In addition to being responsible for policing in rural areas and Highway patrol duties they are also responsible for border security
JSGlock34
11-19-2015, 11:09 PM
When we discussed French LE weapons back in January, I remember thinking this particular unit (GIPN?) was very well equipped. The fact that officers appeared to each carry a pair of Glock pistols was intriguing at the time.
http://i2.mirror.co.uk/incoming/article4943203.ece/ALTERNATES/s1227b/Charlie-Hebdo.jpg
http://i2.cdn.turner.com/cnnnext/dam/assets/150108121458-07-paris-shooting-0108-super-169.jpg
4517
http://s.newsweek.com/sites/www.newsweek.com/files/styles/embedded_full/public/2015/01/08/2015-01-08t171527z1997417692pm1eb181e1t01rtrmadp3france-shooting.JPG?itok=AQfi_8uG
http://i2.mirror.co.uk/incoming/article4943960.ece/ALTERNATES/s1227b/Longpont.jpg
http://i1.mirror.co.uk/incoming/article4943963.ece/ALTERNATES/s1227b/Longpont.jpg
http://i3.mirror.co.uk/incoming/article4943176.ece/ALTERNATES/s1227b/Charlie-Hebdo.jpg
PPGMD
11-19-2015, 11:22 PM
It is kind of hard to see, but is that a Ghost Holster with a ALG 6 second mount on that vest mounted Glock?
Also those guys in the blue uniforms all seem to be carrying different guns.
Why do European tactical teams often utilize helmet face shields/visors, but I rarely see them in the USA outside of the riot control context?
Those are ballistic face shields. IIIa rated more than likely. Heavy and expensive. I rarely see them in the US police world. Not sure why.
PPGMD
11-19-2015, 11:55 PM
Those are ballistic face shields. IIIa rated more than likely. Heavy and expensive. I rarely see them in the US police world. Not sure why.
Those things look like they add at least another couple of pounds to the 3-4lbs helmet.
RevolverRob
11-20-2015, 12:15 AM
Right is important to distinguish the different groups shown in these images (and those from January).
RAID - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Research,_Assistance,_Intervention,_Deterrence
GIGN - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Gendarmerie_Intervention_Group
GIPN - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Police_Intervention_Groups
National Gendarmerie - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Gendarmerie
National Police - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Police_%28France%29
There are two (up to three) hierarchical structures at play here:
National Police (Police Nationale) - Which contains RAID - Research, Assistance, Intervention, Deterrence a national counter-terrorism group (FBI HRT) and contains GIPN which are regional Police Intervention Groups (think FBI Regional SWAT Teams).
The GIGN is part of the National Gendarmerie. As pointed out by Le Francias earlier and in the Paris-attack thread, the Gendarmerie is a military unit, it is officially part of the French Armed Forces. The original purpose of the National Gendarmerie was primarily rural police services (think Sheriff's department). However, they have expanded to include Maritime (Coast Guard), Airport (something like our TSA, but actually better at their jobs), they also provide Military Police duties, police duties on airbases, and police and protection duties for the French equivalent of DARPA. In addition they have two more (even more) specialized units the GIGN and an armored unit. Officially, GIGN is part of the Armed Forces and has been deployed with French Army on the ground in Afghanistan and other deployments. And is, no doubt as we speak, on the ground in Syria, going to whack some ISIS badguys.
GIPN and RAID are National units and only deployed within France or French Protectorates. GIGN is a military unit deployed globally. Apparently, they have considerable cross-over in training and often in mission goals as well. Which makes sense in many cases. The FBI HRT often trains with USSOCOM units for instance here.
Regarding firearms: Standard issue handguns for National Police and National Gendarmerie is the Sig Pro 2022 in 9mm. The Gendarmerie also have access to military long guns (FAMAS, HK416s, HK G3s, HK MP5s, etc.). The National Police are more limited in long-guns to pump shotguns and Mini-14s. GIPN, RAID, and GIGN all have essentially free weapons selection. Most individuals have gone with the Sig P226 or Glock in various flavors, but you will find that individuals from each group carry the MR73 from time to time. The MR73 was the previous standard issue handgun for the Gendarmerie and was optional in RAID and GIPN.
Anyways - This is all enough detail, to make an obsessive compulsive like me get a bad itch. I don't think I could be the quartermaster/armorer for these units. Especially the more specialized ones. Trying to maintain about 15 different weapons systems of various makes, models, and ages, would drive me f'ing insane. Personally, if I were running a GIGN unit, for instance. It would be Glock or MR73, HK416s for everyone, except the shotgun guy (Benelli M4), and the sniper teams would get whatever it is they are running these days (mostly AIs in .300 Win Mag). None of this - six guys with AR-variants, three guys with HK variants, and some dude with a Mossberg 500 pump...And I swear any dude that showed up with a Mini-14 would be kicked off the team.
-Rob
Coyotesfan97
11-20-2015, 12:25 AM
Those things look like they add at least another couple of pounds to the 3-4lbs helmet.
We had a few when I first started SWAT. They were heavy and strained your neck. The ones we had also distorted your view. Nobody liked them.
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S Jenks
11-20-2015, 01:31 AM
The guy in front is going to need some serious ear pro if the guy behind him pops a cap like that.
Okie John
It looks like the guy in front has something opaque in his ear but it's hard to tell.
And I swear any dude that showed up with a Mini-14 would be kicked off the team.
-Rob
Probably a good idea in any case.
TxShooter
11-21-2015, 12:20 AM
Two years ago I rescued a PM12S from our armory that needed cleaning. So far they haven't asked for it back. It's somewhat chunky but pretty accurate and very controllable. The biggest drawback would have to be the sights; the rear aperture is tiny and hard to see in low light.
Mr. Goodtimes
11-21-2015, 08:45 AM
Pretty sweet HK porn up in here. Anyone notice that one picture of the dude with the aimpoint on the G36? Holy co witness batman.
Edit: I'd like to know what their logic is behind carrying two handguns.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Am I the only one who thinks of blow up dolls when dudes run around with 3-hole face masks?
Right is important to distinguish the different groups shown in these images (and those from January).
RAID - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Research,_Assistance,_Intervention,_Deterrence
GIGN - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Gendarmerie_Intervention_Group
GIPN - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Police_Intervention_Groups
National Gendarmerie - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Gendarmerie
National Police - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Police_%28France%29
There are two (up to three) hierarchical structures at play here:
National Police (Police Nationale) - Which contains RAID - Research, Assistance, Intervention, Deterrence a national counter-terrorism group (FBI HRT) and contains GIPN which are regional Police Intervention Groups (think FBI Regional SWAT Teams).
The GIGN is part of the National Gendarmerie. As pointed out by Le Francias earlier and in the Paris-attack thread, the Gendarmerie is a military unit, it is officially part of the French Armed Forces. The original purpose of the National Gendarmerie was primarily rural police services (think Sheriff's department). However, they have expanded to include Maritime (Coast Guard), Airport (something like our TSA, but actually better at their jobs), they also provide Military Police duties, police duties on airbases, and police and protection duties for the French equivalent of DARPA. In addition they have two more (even more) specialized units the GIGN and an armored unit. Officially, GIGN is part of the Armed Forces and has been deployed with French Army on the ground in Afghanistan and other deployments. And is, no doubt as we speak, on the ground in Syria, going to whack some ISIS badguys.
GIPN and RAID are National units and only deployed within France or French Protectorates. GIGN is a military unit deployed globally. Apparently, they have considerable cross-over in training and often in mission goals as well. Which makes sense in many cases. The FBI HRT often trains with USSOCOM units for instance here.
Regarding firearms: Standard issue handguns for National Police and National Gendarmerie is the Sig Pro 2022 in 9mm. The Gendarmerie also have access to military long guns (FAMAS, HK416s, HK G3s, HK MP5s, etc.). The National Police are more limited in long-guns to pump shotguns and Mini-14s. GIPN, RAID, and GIGN all have essentially free weapons selection. Most individuals have gone with the Sig P226 or Glock in various flavors, but you will find that individuals from each group carry the MR73 from time to time. The MR73 was the previous standard issue handgun for the Gendarmerie and was optional in RAID and GIPN.
Anyways - This is all enough detail, to make an obsessive compulsive like me get a bad itch. I don't think I could be the quartermaster/armorer for these units. Especially the more specialized ones. Trying to maintain about 15 different weapons systems of various makes, models, and ages, would drive me f'ing insane. Personally, if I were running a GIGN unit, for instance. It would be Glock or MR73, HK416s for everyone, except the shotgun guy (Benelli M4), and the sniper teams would get whatever it is they are running these days (mostly AIs in .300 Win Mag). None of this - six guys with AR-variants, three guys with HK variants, and some dude with a Mossberg 500 pump...And I swear any dude that showed up with a Mini-14 would be kicked off the team.
-Rob
Rob,
Any idea which of these mentioned teams are full-time tactical teams, part time, ect? Just curious. I don't know much about them.
Edit: I'd like to know what their logic is behind carrying two handguns
4536
'Nuff said.
I'd like to know what their logic is behind carrying two handguns.
Especially when both are barely, if at all, accessible by the other strong hand.
For a serious answer about the placement of their second pistol - the pistols are placed in a good position if the they want to be able to draw them while seated in a car or if they are standing in the turret of an armored vehicle.
Wondering Beard
11-21-2015, 11:27 AM
Rob,
Any idea which of these mentioned teams are full-time tactical teams, part time, ect? Just curious. I don't know much about them.
GIGN and RAID are full time, not sure about GIPN and I think BRI is part time.
Le Français
11-21-2015, 12:46 PM
As of earlier this year, GIPN units within mainland France were made part of RAID (which they had been closely associated with already). The BRI is not a full time tactical unit, as it has additional responsibilities relating to the fight against organized crime.
JSGlock34
11-21-2015, 04:24 PM
Edit: I'd like to know what their logic is behind carrying two handguns.
When this came up back in January, ToddG shared below...
It has certain benefits in specific types of assaults. Because certain cool people were doing it under certain circumstances, it quickly became misunderstood and suddenly everyone and his brother was doing it.
It went away (thankfully) but I fully expect photos like that will bring it back for a while. Hooray.
I have no idea what they're intended/expected/possible mission profile(s) might be so it's plausible those particular guys are ready to go in the event they are forced to be in one of those specific environments for which it was developed. Or it could just monkey see, monkey do. Without more info I certainly wouldn't criticize.
I'm intrigued by the revolvers.
It's certainly possible it is a budget thing and they haven't got around to replacing them, but is it possible the revolver gives them something they need from the gun, such as a specific round or some handling characteristic?
45dotACP
11-21-2015, 08:23 PM
I'm intrigued by the revolvers.
It's certainly possible it is a budget thing and they haven't got around to replacing them, but is it possible the revolver gives them something they need from the gun, such as a specific round or some handling characteristic?
I'm told the MR73 is no mere revolver...it's built to withstand daily practice with full power magnum ammo...I'm guessing they just aren't breaking. Think Ruger durability and Colt Python style ;)
Add that to the benefits of using a revolver behind a shield and the concussive blast of a .357 in close quarters and you've got a 6 shot handheld flash bang that you can use to sling 125 grain hollowpoints from behind a bulletproof shield. And also style points...
TR675
11-21-2015, 08:30 PM
I'm intrigued by the revolvers.
It's certainly possible it is a budget thing and they haven't got around to replacing them, but is it possible the revolver gives them something they need from the gun, such as a specific round or some handling characteristic?
Yeah, Joie de vivre.
ST911
11-21-2015, 08:35 PM
Two handguns may also be seen on those running shields or dogs.
I'm intrigued by the revolvers.
It's certainly possible it is a budget thing and they haven't got around to replacing them, but is it possible the revolver gives them something they need from the gun, such as a specific round or some handling characteristic?
From my recollection they've been successfully using MR73's for decades. If it ain't broke.....
RevolverRob
11-21-2015, 09:00 PM
I'm intrigued by the revolvers.
It's certainly possible it is a budget thing and they haven't got around to replacing them, but is it possible the revolver gives them something they need from the gun, such as a specific round or some handling characteristic?
When the revolvers were originally issued? Yes, reliable expanding bullets. For years and years the GIGN/GIPN used a 158-grain semi-jacketed hollowpoint loaded by Norma to about 1350 fps. The MR73 was designed to handle 100,000+ rounds of that ammunition before needing an overhaul. By all accounts they are also exceptionally accurate. GIGN has maintained the revolvers for a variety of reasons, but I think most of it is a holdover from an older time. The French used .357 revolvers from the mid-1960s until around 2000. When they switched to the PAMAS G1 (A French licensed and built Beretta 92) and then the SP2022s they use now.
I'm intrigued by the revolvers.
It's certainly possible it is a budget thing and they haven't got around to replacing them, but is it possible the revolver gives them something they need from the gun, such as a specific round or some handling characteristic?
I highly doubt it's a budget thing. There are articulable reasons for the revolver, shield use, contact shots, concussion in close quarters and accuracy but the real reason is :
pa·nache
pəˈnaSH,pəˈnäSH/
noun
1.
flamboyant confidence of style or manner.
"he entertained Palm Springs society with great panache"
synonyms: flamboyance, confidence, self-assurance, style, flair, elan, dash, verve, zest, spirit, brio, éclat, vivacity, gusto, liveliness, vitality, energy;
45dotACP
11-21-2015, 11:09 PM
If you are authorized to carry an MR73 and an additional pistol...hell I'd consider it nearly criminal not to. Sig Pro for lots of bullets...MR73 for uh....well...uh....reasons.
Yeah, reasons!
RevolverRob
11-22-2015, 01:45 AM
Yeah, Joie de vivre.
pa·nache
pəˈnaSH,pəˈnäSH/
noun
1.
flamboyant confidence of style or manner.
"he entertained Palm Springs society with great panache"
synonyms: flamboyance, confidence, self-assurance, style, flair, elan, dash, verve, zest, spirit, brio, éclat, vivacity, gusto, liveliness, vitality, energy;
If you are authorized to carry an MR73...hell I'd consider it nearly criminal not to.
The world is not flat!! Your gun shouldn't be either!
But don't take my word for it, let's refer to some badasses for reference...
4561456245634564
Anyone have any idea what was used on the apartment that necessitated the DNA testing on the remains of the terrorists from the raid on the apartment? Are they issued any weapons heavier than the small arms already described? Enthusiastic explosive breaching?
Anyone have any idea what was used on the apartment that necessitated the DNA testing on the remains of the terrorists from the raid on the apartment? Are they issued any weapons heavier than the small arms already described? Enthusiastic explosive breaching?
Someone with more info may come correct me and make me look like a fool, but I saw a video of the suicide belt going off and it looked like quite a blast. I think that alone could make DNA testing necessary.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qtL6nRv_9io
Someone with more info may come correct me and make me look like a fool, but I saw a video of the suicide belt going off and it looked like quite a blast. I think that alone could make DNA testing necessary.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qtL6nRv_9io
If you look closely you can see the skull and spine of the bomber flying out the window
Someone with more info may come correct me and make me look like a fool, but I saw a video of the suicide belt going off and it looked like quite a blast. I think that alone could make DNA testing
Probably would depend on size/construction of the device. Also, there was a a decent amount of rounds fired by RAID in the incident I thought.
Probably would depend on size/construction of the device. Also, there was a a decent amount of rounds fired by RAID in the incident I thought.
A suicide vest was detonated.
Typically the only thing that remains in such cases is the head, in whatever condition.
DNA is a surefire way to identify someone.
Not much else to explain.
Maybe I phrased it wrong. Taking into account what a suicide vest could do to the scene and the person wearing it, was anything more powerful than long guns? Multiple news outlets reported the French prosecutors office reported "powerful munitions" were used.
I ask because I'm curious if anyone know if Euro LEOS have access to a broader range of heavier weapons because of the way they are structured or their roles. Someone mentioned earlier the Gendarmes had an armored component. Just curious how other countries are dealing with these threats.
Article on the Mousqueton / French Mini 14
http://www.shootingillustrated.com/articles/2015/1/9/the-mousqueton-amd-frances-mini-14/#.Vktthl2yd-c.facebook
When the revolvers were originally issued? Yes, reliable expanding bullets. For years and years the GIGN/GIPN used a 158-grain semi-jacketed hollowpoint loaded by Norma to about 1350 fps. The MR73 was designed to handle 100,000+ rounds of that ammunition before needing an overhaul. By all accounts they are also exceptionally accurate. GIGN has maintained the revolvers for a variety of reasons, but I think most of it is a holdover from an older time. The French used .357 revolvers from the mid-1960s until around 2000. When they switched to the PAMAS G1 (A French licensed and built Beretta 92) and then the SP2022s they use now.
Any idea what round GIGN uses in their Glocks? I have seen it mentioned that the French police and gendarmes generally use the 124 gr. +P Gold Dot, but I don's know how reliable that is.
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