Still think ceramic armor is "better" than steel?

[Andrew Wiggin]

Is it ever really accurate to say that one thing is categorically "better" than another thing? I mean, except beer. Beer is definitely better than not having beer. For drinking.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0jEih2mAo1Y

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0jEih2mAo1Y


While ceramic armor can stop some threats that steel armor can't and ceramic is sometimes marginally lighter (some steel plates are actually lighter than some ceramic plates of similar size), it is also thicker and less durable as well as significantly more expensive.

If .30-06 AP is a likely threat for you and if you can afford to replace a plate if you suspect it has been damaged, and if you expect that replacement plates will be available when you need them, ceramic may be a good choice.

If you don't think that armor piercing ammo is a high probability in your area, and if you intend to actually use your plates before they are needed, steel may give you more peace of mind.

Ceramic isn't quite as fragile as many would have you believe. If your plate carrier fell off your vehicle or if it is subjected to a bumpy road in your trunk, or if you trip and fall on a rock, it will probably still be fine. This test shows that a steel plate will still be fine and will survive much more than you can.

[runcible]

Broadbrush answers rarely take the conversation farther on. Somethings in life are best served with the non-diagnostic, the reactive, or lowest-common-denominator methodology; but the logistics of equipping a force seems to be one of those things that can enjoy a surplus of time to make an educated and supported decision.

There are driving reasons that Dom LE generally run greater-coverage soft armor, but OCONUS Mil generally run reduced-coverage\higher-rating hard armor. Each generalization has a different "most likely threat" and accepts different compromises, when it equips it self so.

Bringing that back to steel vs ceramic vs other:

Will the user group be using plates ICW soft armor or as stand-alones?
What is the acceptable depth of plates, for those running LV\discrete work?
Are maritime or amphib activities in the METT?
What size force is being equipped?
What sort of high-endurance activities are expected in the METT?

There's a lot of poor scoop on steel plates floating around, quite a bit of it still surprising for me to hear; but fiefdoms and regionality help keep that stuff afloat.

[Drang]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0jEih2mAo1Y
0jEih2mAo1Y

Link is broken.
This one?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0jEih2mAo1Y

[Eyesquared]

A few questions:
1. You assert that you think a ceramic plate would not be able to withstand the hits you inflict on the steel plate. Have you actually tested this? (sorry, i haven't gone through all your videos)

2. You state that "ceramic is sometimes marginally lighter (some steel plates are actually lighter than some ceramic plates of similar size)." What steel plates are lighter than comparable ceramic plates? Are these plates rated similarly in threat level? Also "ceramic is sometimes marginally lighter" strikes me as an understatement. Even el-cheapo level IV plates weigh comparably to AR 500 level III+ plates. SKD's level IV plate costs a little under twice as much as an AR500 level III+ and weighs 6.75lbs.

3. You say "If your plate carrier fell off your vehicle or if it is subjected to a bumpy road in your trunk, or if you trip and fall on a rock, it will probably still be fine." I think you are seriously underselling the durability of ceramic plates. If they fractured that easily I don't think they would be very viable for military use, and my understanding is that concerns about x-raying for cracks is primarily an institutional level issue. Somehow the military (renowned for destroying even the simplest of objects) sticks with ceramic. Have you tested the effect of impact on ceramic plate protection levels?

[BehindBlueI's]

What are those steel plates that are lighter than ceramic plates that give the same protection AND are they at roughly the same price point?

[Andrew Wiggin]

Link is broken.
This one?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0jEih2mAo1Y

Yes. Thanks for fixing the link, Tom.

[Andrew Wiggin]

A few questions:
1. You assert that you think a ceramic plate would not be able to withstand the hits you inflict on the steel plate. Have you actually tested this? (sorry, i haven't gone through all your videos)

2. You state that "ceramic is sometimes marginally lighter (some steel plates are actually lighter than some ceramic plates of similar size)." What steel plates are lighter than comparable ceramic plates? Are these plates rated similarly in threat level? Also "ceramic is sometimes marginally lighter" strikes me as an understatement. Even el-cheapo level IV plates weigh comparably to AR 500 level III+ plates. SKD's level IV plate costs a little under twice as much as an AR500 level III+ and weighs 6.75lbs.

3. You say "If your plate carrier fell off your vehicle or if it is subjected to a bumpy road in your trunk, or if you trip and fall on a rock, it will probably still be fine." I think you are seriously underselling the durability of ceramic plates. If they fractured that easily I don't think they would be very viable for military use, and my understanding is that concerns about x-raying for cracks is primarily an institutional level issue. Somehow the military (renowned for destroying even the simplest of objects) sticks with ceramic. Have you tested the effect of impact on ceramic plate protection levels?

1: I haven't tested myself, but here's one:

http://youtu.be/53klUU-YuX0

Ceramic plates vary in composition and threat rating original SAPI plates didn't even meet NIJ level IV standards, IIRC. I have heard anecdotal reports of ESAPI and SAPI plates taking multiple hits, though.

2. You have to cherry pick to find a comparison that puts steel lighter, but a Highcom 4SA7 weighs 7.2 lbs and TTM/Spartan Armaply III+ weighs 6.7 lbs with the fragmentation coating.

3. I have not yet, but I intend to test some ceramic plates in a similar way. I believe that ceramic isn't as fragile as some people believe, but we were instructed to turn in plates for X-ray if they were dropped. If I owned the plate, there would always be a nagging doing that it wasn't 100%.

[Andrew Wiggin]

What are those steel plates that are lighter than ceramic plates that give the same protection AND are they at roughly the same price point?

No such thing, that I know of, but that's kind of my point. Engineering is the art of compromise.

[RevolverRob]

How does smashing a ceramic plate with an overhand swing from a multiple-pound sledgehammer mimic the falling of a plate carrier off the back of a truck or bouncing around inside a trunk? (Hint: It doesn't).

The test in question above, shows one thing...if you smash a ceramic plate on the ground, you can weaken it. I bet you I can perform a similar set of tests on steel plates and get them to fail too. It's not just a weight-protection situation. To be effective armor, it must be hardened. Hardened materials are inherently more brittle and thus, less resistant to sharp, directed blows (like I dunno, smashing them with a damn sledgehammer). Now, I am not saying that steel is more brittle than ceramic of a comparable hardness, it almost certainly isn't. However, the question is - for the same weight and coverage do you get the same ballistic protection from steel that you do from ceramic? And the answer, appears to be, an unequivocal NO. - The trade off here is what your expected use of armor is. The other thing to consider, very, very, seriously is the tendency for ricochet from steel vs. ceramic. Ceramic plates won't take as many rounds and are more brittle with sharp directed hits, BUT they also don't create the slag and chunks of still very f'ing dangerous lead that steel plate armor can. To my mind, lightly armored vehicles and personnel benefit far more from the lighter weight with equal or better protection of ceramic than steel.

Ounces is pounds - If you can reduce the weight of an armored vehicle by 10% you can subsequently increase its speed and fuel efficiency. Same goes for a soldier wearing that same kind of armor. Those are tactical trade offs often worth making.

-Rob

[45dotACP]

Just don't get in a fight with Chuck Norris while wearing your ceramic plate. He'll punch right through it and you 😄

Sent from my VS876 using Tapatalk

[Andrew Wiggin]

*sigh*

Steel body armor is coated to absorb fragments. Yes, level IV ceramic plates can protect against M2AP, which will perforate level III steel plates. Is that a high probability threat?

Again, it is foolish to claim that one or the other is categorically better. They have different advantages and disadvantages.

[runcible]

AW,

I just don't follow what you're trying to debunk or convey. Could you restate your premise, please?

[Andrew Wiggin]

I'm pointing out that both ceramic and steel have unique advantages and disadvantages, a primary advantage of steel being durability, multihit protection, cost, and thickness. Again, not better, just different.

[RevolverRob]

*sigh*

Steel body armor is coated to absorb fragments. Yes, level IV ceramic plates can protect against M2AP, which will perforate level III steel plates. Is that a high probability threat?

Again, it is foolish to claim that one or the other is categorically better. They have different advantages and disadvantages.

I actually don't have a dog in the fight, overall.

I just definitively object to the idea that some very, very, unscientific test somehow replicates some real world scenario (which it doesn't). Those data are then being used as some kind of evidentiary argument against the object in question. In this case, smashing ceramic armor with a sledgehammer and then shooting it. Instead, how about tossing the armor, insider a carrier, from on top of a moving truck and then shooting it, to determine loss of efficacy? Or how about putting it in the trunk of a police car and blasting down a washed out gravel road as fast as possible without losing control, and checking it out. Or best yet! Putting it inside the trunk of a vehicle, with a bunch of loose tools and crashing said vehicle, then extracting the armor. That's probably one of the most realistic real world scenarios you can envision.

Until someone truly replicates real world scenarios...the only thing I am seeing is...someone ruined a perfectly good piece plate armor, smashing it and shooting it, to provide evidence that if you do something a product isn't designed for, to it in advance of using it, it may not work properly. Man that's a really stunning revelation. This is how we get warning labels of stuff folks...Now we're gonna have ceramic armor plates come with a statement on them, "Warning, may not work properly if smashed with sledgehammer in advance of being shot."

-Rob

[Andrew Wiggin]

Actually, the sledgehammer was intended to dramatically exceed real world conditions and the plate still performed extremely well. Did you even watch the video?

[BehindBlueI's]

No such thing, that I know of, but that's kind of my point. Engineering is the art of compromise.

Ah. Then I'll keep wearing ceramic.

[SLG]

Clickbait. Nothing useful.

[Andrew Wiggin]

That's fine. Ceramic can be a good choice, depending on your priorities. My point is simply that one is not categorically better than the other.

[Andrew Wiggin]

Clickbait. Nothing useful.

Are you referring to your post? Several people have contributed substantively to this thread, but you aren't one of them.

[breakingtime91]

Well this escalated quickly.. For whatever its worth, I prefer steel plates right now because I am not rich and wanted something to pt with. With that said, if someone gave me new and well kept ceramic I wouldn't care either. The problem is when ceramic is kept for way to long and issued WHILE its crumbling, then I take issue. And ya, that shit happened.

[Andrew Wiggin]

I've heard people say that ceramic degrades with time (not exposure to the elements, use, etc.). This is hard to believe. I don't claim to have any knowledge to the contrary, but is this actually a thing? Anyone have a reference to back it up?

[breakingtime91]

I've heard people say that ceramic degrades with time (not exposure to the elements, use, etc.). This is hard to believe. I don't claim to have any knowledge to the contrary, but is this actually a thing? Anyone have a reference to back it up?

Idk if it's time but I have heard shelf life thrown around. I think it may just be how long they give the plates before they start to break down from constant on\off use

[Drang]

Seems like thoroughly testing this could get expensive...

[Andrew Wiggin]

Seems like thoroughly testing this could get expensive...

I'm working to get several more ceramic plates. So far I have just the one. I intend to do a similar test but I might skip the hammer. I believe that some people have some unrealistic expectations about ceramic as well. Some folks seem to believe that they are made of coffee mugs and will fall apart immediately while others believe they were forged in the heart of a dying star. I believe that most ceramic plates will take multiple hits, so long as the hits are not located close to each other and they will provide protection even after they are cracked.

[BehindBlueI's]

I'm working to get several more ceramic plates. So far I have just the one. I intend to do a similar test but I might skip the hammer. I believe that some people have some unrealistic expectations about ceramic as well. Some folks seem to believe that they are made of coffee mugs and will fall apart immediately while others believe they were forged in the heart of a dying star. I believe that most ceramic plates will take multiple hits, so long as the hits are not located close to each other and they will provide protection even after they are cracked.

Going from memory, but I seem to recall GI plates were rated to stop 3 .30-06 AP rounds. When I worked for DynCorp we tested an "expired" plate and it stopped a full magazine of GI issue ball ammo from an M-16 at 10y. Guys were bitching about wearing "expired" armor and saying the thought the heat would cause it break down. I am not Bill Nye, but I'm figuring ceramic is pretty heat resistant since, you know, ceramic. Anyway, even areas with multiple hits did not allow anything through, although it did "powder" and would have eventually let something through.

[Andrew Wiggin]

According to bulletproofme.com (http://www.bulletproofme.com/RP-SAPI.html) the original SAPI was not quite level IV. Military armor doesn't need to meet NIJ standards. The ESAPI does protect from M2 AP, but I don't think it is rated for multiple hits. While the ceramic portion is unlikely to degrade without impacts or vibration, the other components of a plate could degrade with heat or moisture or general wear, I suppose. Not all ceramic plates are made to the standards of SAPI or ESAPI, though.

[BehindBlueI's]

According to bulletproofme.com (http://www.bulletproofme.com/RP-SAPI.html) the original SAPI was not quite level IV. Military armor doesn't need to meet NIJ standards. The ESAPI does protect from M2 AP, but I don't think it is rated for multiple hits. While the ceramic portion is unlikely to degrade without impacts or vibration, the other components of a plate could degrade with heat or moisture or general wear, I suppose. Not all ceramic plates are made to the standards of SAPI or ESAPI, though.

Semantics aside, the military testing protocol included multiple hits. Up to you if you wish to argue military test results aren't ratings. I use ESAPI plates over soft armor for the odd warrant service or the like where I armor up.

[Default.mp3]

What are those steel plates that are lighter than ceramic plates that give the same protection AND are they at roughly the same price point?The TenCate Cratus 8025SA are probably the closest you'll get from a reputable manufacturer for a lighter plate that gives good rated protection (something of a level 3 plus, in the sense that it was independently tested to stop M80, M193, and M855); cost is pretty damn good, too, with a 10"×12" SAPI cut plate coming in at ~275 USD (and 6.55 lbs). Of course, you'll need to add a spall guard, which will jack up the price, weight a bit, and thickness a bit. Really, the best thing about that plate is absurd thinness, at a rated 0.2" (before the spall guard).

I am intrigued as to where steel armor will take us.

On the other hand, if you're just looking for cheap-o plates, I'd advise checking Tyr Tactical once a week or whatever. Every couple of months, they have some kind of blow-out on level 4 stand-alone boron carbide plates manufactured by Paraclete; they don't always have every size, but they go by ESAPI sizes (IIRC, weight-wise, the smalls were 5.7 lbs. per plate, the larges were 7.7 lbs.; ~0.75" thick). The last time they had a sale, they had ESAPI size smalls and larges for 177 USD per pair. Per pair! And I had though I had gotten a sweet deal when I pounced on them for ~290 USD a pair.

Some info from someone that works at Tyr:

This is Lex Worthy, I am the compliance and Testing Manager for TYR Tactical LLC. LCSA4-BC Plate is tested in Accordance with NIJ 0101.04 Standards as a single hit stand alone level IV plate. meaning it was shot with 30.06 APM2 rounds. The minimum is a 166gr M2AP round with a minimum velocity of 2850 ft/sec

The average V50 on these plates was 3328FPS and the average Backface was 35.5mm.

It is a Boron Carbide composite plate, that has an ESAPI curvature. the average size is 10.25" x 13.25" it is slightly oversized to allow for the normal grinding and finishing of the edges which would make it more of a normal 10 x 12 " plate. this was not done to allow a lower price point. so yes the edges look rough on some of them better on others

The plates average 18.3 MM thick and weigh 7.7 lbs +- 5%. i have weighed about 25 of them randomly and they go from about 7.7 to 8.0lbs.

If any one has any further questions you can call me directly at 602-478-6189

Lex Worthy
Compliance and Testing Manager
TYR Tactical LLC.
16661 N 84th Ave suite 110
Peoria, Az 85382
Lex@tyrtactical.com

[Andrew Wiggin]

I came here following Doc Roberts. I'll stop posting.