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seabiscuit
09-27-2011, 12:46 PM
ToddG's post on p-t.com got me thinking. As part of the PPC (Practical Pistol Course) at the range back home, there's a left-side barricade string, shot weak hand, but with the strong hand on the pistol too.

I can't recall any drills mentioned here or at p-t.com that suggest shooting weak hand, and not weak hand only.

Why not? Does it just not offer any advantage over strong hand, both hands, even when shooting around a left-side barricade?

ToddG
09-27-2011, 12:59 PM
There are two schools of thought. Some folks are big in favor of "bilateral" pistol shooting, meaning the ability to switch from right-as-strong two-handed to left-as-strong two-handed.

I'm not among that camp for the following reasons:

I don't find it actually allows me to use cover any better. I've demonstrated this at a number of classes.
I don't want to be swapping hands in the middle of a stressful event, like clearing a structure.
The amount of time and energy it's going to take to reach reasonably equal competence with "reverse grip" isn't worth it. Remember, it's not just about making hits or even hits at speed. You need to have your reload and malfunction clearance skills polished with the reverse grip, etc.
"2" and "3" add up to a violation of Hackathorn's Law (http://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?226-AAR-Ken-Hackathorn-Advanced-Pistol-October-24-25-2009)... if I'm not confident I can do it, I'm not going to do it under stress. If I'm not going to do it under stress, why practice it?


(btw, since Ken's named was mentioned, it's worth noting that he is a very serious advocate of bilateral pistol shooting... as such, I don't want to leave anyone with the impression that I'm suggesting he endorses my viewpoint on the subject)

VolGrad
09-27-2011, 01:04 PM
Here's a right handed shooter taking aim from behind a barricade (on his strong side) with the pistol in his strong hand. Note how little is exposed.
http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd208/volgrad/HACK%20Apr%202011/bea613e6.jpg

Here's the same shooter taking aim from the weak side of the barricade while still holding the pistol primarily with his strong hand. Note the difference.
http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd208/volgrad/HACK%20Apr%202011/86f00aed.jpg

Quiz ... Can anyone name that shooter?

EDIT: This pic demo doesn't address WHO vs week hand + strong hand as support. It does demo what Todd hit on though.

ToddG
09-27-2011, 01:14 PM
There are better ways to use cover when approaching a strong side corner than that, though. It's like saying "let me prove Weaver is better" by shooting a sub-10 El Prez from Weaver and then shooting a 20-plus El Prez while holding the gun upside down in one hand.

As I said, as both a teacher and student (not to mention in FOF) I've demonstrated plenty of times that I can effectively fire from a position of much better concealment than shown in that photo above. TCinVA and Tom Jones were with me when we spent quite a bit of time playing around with it in Ohio.

Al T.
09-27-2011, 04:51 PM
VolGrad, the "Cirillo Cant" takes care of that issue fairly well. :)

Dagga Boy
09-27-2011, 06:32 PM
There are two schools of thought. Some folks are big in favor of "bilateral" pistol shooting, meaning the ability to switch from right-as-strong two-handed to left-as-strong two-handed.

I'm not among that camp for the following reasons:

I don't find it actually allows me to use cover any better. I've demonstrated this at a number of classes.
I don't want to be swapping hands in the middle of a stressful event, like clearing a structure.
The amount of time and energy it's going to take to reach reasonably equal competence with "reverse grip" isn't worth it. Remember, it's not just about making hits or even hits at speed. You need to have your reload and malfunction clearance skills polished with the reverse grip, etc.
"2" and "3" add up to a violation of Hackathorn's Law (http://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?226-AAR-Ken-Hackathorn-Advanced-Pistol-October-24-25-2009)... if I'm not confident I can do it, I'm not going to do it under stress. If I'm not going to do it under stress, why practice it?


(btw, since Ken's named was mentioned, it's worth noting that he is a very serious advocate of bilateral pistol shooting... as such, I don't want to leave anyone with the impression that I'm suggesting he endorses my viewpoint on the subject)

I'll mark this day on my calendar...........Todd and I are in 100% full agreement.

For what its worth, after spending time training with Ken Good I tried doing the whole bilateral thing in the field under real stress in unpredictable situations. I dumped it after numerous failures, and getting killed trying to get to Jedi level 12 wasn't worth it. Some people are very ambidextrous and can pull this off without much of an issue. Most people do not fit in this category. I now only train one hand only with my support hand because the reality is that the only time I am ever going to use my support hand is if my primary is not functioning or unable to hold and fire my firearm.

LittleLebowski
09-27-2011, 06:48 PM
Vickers is some sort of weird mutant when it comes to this method..... Best weak hand shooter I've ever seen.

Dropkick
09-27-2011, 07:23 PM
Trackback to a thread I started about Weak Hand Shooting:
http://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?906-Weak-Hand-Shooting

I've also heard weak hand shooting (not WHO) called "Mirror-Image" because your grip is reversed like in a mirror.

I'm not saying it's a good or bad technique, just that I'm aware that it exists.

seabiscuit
09-27-2011, 07:52 PM
Thanks for all the replies. I'll spend my ammo and dry-fire time on WHO, I think.

What's the Cirillo Cant?

Simon
09-27-2011, 08:25 PM
I shot PPC with a revolver for years, found that trying to shoot weak side barricade with the weak hand pulling the trigger and using the none dominant eye doesn't work very well. For the game, putting the back of the strong hand against the weak side of the barricade, using the dominant eye works muck better. You can use your strong thumb on the barricade if you want. With the ammo used in PPC , the recoil won't be a problem.

In a gun fight, these barricade positions, for all practical purposes, are worthless. If your are behind a building , ricochets stay to close to a hard surface. If you are behind any type of fence other than stone you have no protection.

PPC was developed in the 1950s by the FBI for training and was never really anything other than a marksmanship game. If you try to get into any of those positions in the open during a gun fight you are going to get your a$$ shot.

Dagga Boy
09-27-2011, 10:02 PM
Vickers is some sort of weird mutant when it comes to this method..... Best weak hand shooter I've ever seen.

I would venture it is because Larry is one of those guys who is very ambidextrous. He shoots a long gun left, and his pistol right handed. Most of the good firearms instructors I know who are left handed tend to be really good with their right handsmainly because they have had to demonstrate right handed techniques forever to their students, and have also been forced by a right handed world to often times adapt to something different. Right handers usually don't have to do anything left handed unless they are hurt. The world is just built to function for the 88% of the population that are right handed.

Jay Cunningham
09-27-2011, 10:30 PM
I used to be pretty hardcore in switching up to weak hand supported and closing my dominant eye in order to maximize my cover.

I am at the point now where I think simply closing my dominant eye will get me the same results.

VolGrad
09-28-2011, 06:19 AM
I used to be pretty hardcore in switching up to weak hand supported and closing my dominant eye in order to maximize my cover.

I am at the point now where I think simply closing my dominant eye will get me the same results.
I know you didn't mean it that way but it read like you meant closing one eye is the same as using cover. Not sure if your daughter is old enough to have started doing that yet or not ... closing her eyes and thinking you can't see her. :p

Still .... no one has guessed who the shooter is pictured in post #2 of this thread.

SouthNarc
09-28-2011, 06:40 AM
Actually if you go SHO and blade into an old school Camp Perry you can utilize weak side cover even more effectively. I do this in AMIS all the time and make shots on people without being seen when playing the who sees who first game.

Dropkick
09-28-2011, 07:42 AM
Is the guy pictured, Dave Spaulding?

VolGrad
09-28-2011, 07:45 AM
Is the guy pictured, Dave Spaulding?
Nope.

GooberTim
09-28-2011, 09:31 AM
What do I win if I guess correctly? :cool:

VolGrad
09-28-2011, 10:02 AM
What do I win if I guess correctly? :cool:

You ... nothing. Well, I might buy you lunch but I probably owe you one any way. You are excluded from the quiz as you were present when I took this pic.

Hint though .... you all know his name. Many of you have trained with him before.

Al T.
09-28-2011, 11:42 AM
Paul Gomez?

Seabiscuit, don't have my book handy, but essentially you take a normal two handed grip and lean your body to the left so that the handgun "tilts" past the left edge of the cover. I find running it dry, the handgun ends up at about 45 or 50 degrees. The concept is that you retain your normal firing grip and "tilt" just enough to place aimed fire on the target.

Soon as I find the book, I'll double check myself.

VolGrad
09-28-2011, 11:44 AM
Paul Gomez?
Nope. I do hope people keep guessing though.

Dagga Boy
09-28-2011, 11:56 AM
Actually if you go SHO and blade into an old school Camp Perry you can utilize weak side cover even more effectively. I do this in AMIS all the time and make shots on people without being seen when playing the who sees who first game.

Bingo. This works really well when moving fast indoors. I will transition from Harris to a neck index and strong hand only far faster and more efficiently than try to switch hands. I tend to look at how well things "flow" together rather than slight improvements in shooting.

jar
09-28-2011, 02:03 PM
What's a neck index? (Sorry if that's an ignant question.)

Holding a flashlight in the weak hand along the side of your neck right against the bottom of the jawline while shooting SHO. The light naturally follows where you look, including illuminating the sights.

VolGrad
11-08-2011, 06:11 AM
I'm still a little sad no one correctly guessed the person pictured in post #3 is Ken Hackathorn ... because it is. I took the pics myself.

orionz06
11-08-2011, 12:13 PM
I'm still a little sad no one correctly guessed the person pictured in post #3 is Ken Hackathorn ... because it is. I took the pics myself.

No 'stache seen in the pic.