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View Full Version : CO Springs Officers Will No Longer Take Fitness Tests After Discrimination Lawsuit



LittleLebowski
11-12-2015, 07:40 PM
http://denver.cbslocal.com/2015/11/10/female-springs-officers-win-lawsuit-no-longer-have-to-take-physical-fitness-tests/


Last Friday the Colorado Springs Police Department agreed to the demands of 12 female officers who filed a civil suit claiming the fitness tests are discriminatory. All the officers were over the age of 40.

Nephrology
11-12-2015, 07:51 PM
http://denver.cbslocal.com/2015/11/10/female-springs-officers-win-lawsuit-no-longer-have-to-take-physical-fitness-tests/

....Seriously?

I am pretty sure we have female military brass over the age of 40 who have no trouble meeting physical fitness standards...

Kyle Reese
11-12-2015, 08:07 PM
PAT's are hard.

NickA
11-12-2015, 08:17 PM
What's the saying? "You can't train hard enough for a job that can kill you."
I'd have zero confidence in anyone with so little instinct for self preservation protecting me or mine.

JackRock
11-12-2015, 11:34 PM
I hope the federal judge reverses the decision. This is all too closely to going to the military, next. We've seen this sort of stupid incrementalism before, and it doesn't go well if unchecked.

LSP552
11-13-2015, 12:06 AM
What need for fitness in a job that could have you fighting for your life, or someone else's?

BehindBlueI's
11-13-2015, 01:59 AM
If they ability to chase down your average suspect is a requirement, I'm out. So are a whole lot of experienced detectives, and really quite a few street officers. Running people down isn't my job any more. Not that I was likely to catch you on foot when I was in patrol. So, serious question, let's say I can't do your run tests? Am I fired? I haven't chased anyone in years, don't plan to do it any time soon, but I am a good detective, with a minimum of self-horn tooting, I'm well regarded by my chain of command, peers, prosecutor's office, and even defense attorneys. I've got experience running chaotic scenes that make national news, a proven track record of making decisions under stress, recognized interview/interrogation skills, etc. Is all of that negated because my knee is shit, I'm getting older, and I'll never run fast enough to catch most of the people who run from cops?

The idea that push-ups and sit-ups translates to the ability to fight suspects is also horse shit.

I understand the desire for ongoing physical fitness standards. My department does not have them, and yeah, we've got some fatasses. We've also got an older department, as in the average age of our officers is quite a bit higher than the national average. 7 or 8 years older IIRC. Part of it is we tend to hire older recruits, but also because people stick around longer. You start kicking experience out based on the ability to do a pushup, I don't think that's a net gain.

Maple Syrup Actual
11-13-2015, 02:39 AM
If they ability to chase down your average suspect is a requirement, I'm out. So are a whole lot of experienced detectives, and really quite a few street officers. Running people down isn't my job any more. Not that I was likely to catch you on foot when I was in patrol. So, serious question, let's say I can't do your run tests? Am I fired? I haven't chased anyone in years, don't plan to do it any time soon, but I am a good detective, with a minimum of self-horn tooting, I'm well regarded by my chain of command, peers, prosecutor's office, and even defense attorneys. I've got experience running chaotic scenes that make national news, a proven track record of making decisions under stress, recognized interview/interrogation skills, etc. Is all of that negated because my knee is shit, I'm getting older, and I'll never run fast enough to catch most of the people who run from cops?

The idea that push-ups and sit-ups translates to the ability to fight suspects is also horse shit.

I understand the desire for ongoing physical fitness standards. My department does not have them, and yeah, we've got some fatasses. We've also got an older department, as in the average age of our officers is quite a bit higher than the national average. 7 or 8 years older IIRC. Part of it is we tend to hire older recruits, but also because people stick around longer. You start kicking experience out based on the ability to do a pushup, I don't think that's a net gain.

That is a really interesting point.

Locally, our PD has 2000 members, some of whom do nothing but technical work on computer crimes. Similar arguments to be made, I suppose. Should they only use IT experts who are good at situps? Does that get them the best investigative team?

Jim Watson
11-13-2015, 03:27 AM
On the other hand, do you think these dames will insist on getting interesting jobs that might call for them to chase or duke it out with a suspect?

SouthNarc
11-13-2015, 06:45 AM
If they ability to chase down your average suspect is a requirement, I'm out. So are a whole lot of experienced detectives, and really quite a few street officers. Running people down isn't my job any more. Not that I was likely to catch you on foot when I was in patrol. So, serious question, let's say I can't do your run tests? Am I fired? I haven't chased anyone in years, don't plan to do it any time soon, but I am a good detective, with a minimum of self-horn tooting, I'm well regarded by my chain of command, peers, prosecutor's office, and even defense attorneys. I've got experience running chaotic scenes that make national news, a proven track record of making decisions under stress, recognized interview/interrogation skills, etc. Is all of that negated because my knee is shit, I'm getting older, and I'll never run fast enough to catch most of the people who run from cops?

The idea that push-ups and sit-ups translates to the ability to fight suspects is also horse shit.

I understand the desire for ongoing physical fitness standards. My department does not have them, and yeah, we've got some fatasses. We've also got an older department, as in the average age of our officers is quite a bit higher than the national average. 7 or 8 years older IIRC. Part of it is we tend to hire older recruits, but also because people stick around longer. You start kicking experience out based on the ability to do a pushup, I don't think that's a net gain.

The chicks in the article were patrol officers and had been put on desk duty, not fired.

voodoo_man
11-13-2015, 06:48 AM
Does that pd have standards they have to pass yearly?

I am 100% behind standards, especially physical standards. There needs to be a very specific requirement for this however. Swat guys? 100% standards passing required. Patrol? Id except an 80% passing, meaning 80% of the standard. The patrol officer needs to be able have the physical fitness to do the job, that should not be up for debate. Detectives? Like working a desk in a suit and tie? That doesnt require fitness, no fitness test required.

I chase people. My coworkers chase people. We fight. A lot of us train and having the physical ability to do that, at a standard is something that should be required for LE. If an officer went the hospital every time they got into a physical confrontation it would deplete manpower extra quick. If an officer did not have the physical ability to stand for long periods of time, not get exhausted during at a long police action or the like.

Beyond that, it just makes sense to have physical fitness be a requirement in the LE field, especially for those who do "work."

LittleLebowski
11-13-2015, 06:55 AM
The chicks in the article were patrol officers and had been put on desk duty, not fired.

I wouldn't be surprised if they were happy with that.

Hambo
11-13-2015, 07:47 AM
Why should SWAT be in better condition than patrol? SWAT was more guys, more guns, lots of waiting around, and a few minutes of action. It's not like we jogged to the calls. Patrol officers chased suspects and got in protracted fights waiting for backup.

I believe that age weighted, department wide fitness standards are a good thing. In many departments detectives work other details, and like the Marines, if it's big or bad enough everybody will be out in riot gear. Plus who says you're going to stay behind that desk forever? Where I was the Detective Bureau didn't offer a lifelong contract. Standards can help an agency or municipality cut insurance costs, which is good for you, the employee. You remain healthier, your costs might be less, and at contract time you can argue for more wages because insurance costs them less. ;)

pablo
11-13-2015, 07:49 AM
There's a lot of liability in physical fitness. If an agency is going to have physical fitness standards, should they be required to provide paid time in the gym and foot the worker's comp bill for gym related injuries? It's cheaper and better received to have physical fitness incentives, i.e. pay and/or discretionary days off.

Detectives need to meet the same standards as patrol, when there is a SHTF incident, they're going to be back in uniform and just another patrol cop working long days.

The worst beating I saw an officer take, was a detective, in a 4'x6' interview room.

JHC
11-13-2015, 08:07 AM
If they ability to chase down your average suspect is a requirement, I'm out. So are a whole lot of experienced detectives, and really quite a few street officers. Running people down isn't my job any more. Not that I was likely to catch you on foot when I was in patrol. So, serious question, let's say I can't do your run tests? Am I fired? I haven't chased anyone in years, don't plan to do it any time soon, but I am a good detective, with a minimum of self-horn tooting, I'm well regarded by my chain of command, peers, prosecutor's office, and even defense attorneys. I've got experience running chaotic scenes that make national news, a proven track record of making decisions under stress, recognized interview/interrogation skills, etc. Is all of that negated because my knee is shit, I'm getting older, and I'll never run fast enough to catch most of the people who run from cops?

The idea that push-ups and sit-ups translates to the ability to fight suspects is also horse shit.

I understand the desire for ongoing physical fitness standards. My department does not have them, and yeah, we've got some fatasses. We've also got an older department, as in the average age of our officers is quite a bit higher than the national average. 7 or 8 years older IIRC. Part of it is we tend to hire older recruits, but also because people stick around longer. You start kicking experience out based on the ability to do a pushup, I don't think that's a net gain.

I was all over this on my FB page and got tutored by a LEO friend that it's not always the norm for current officers in many PDs to have annual PAT requirements; presumably for reasons as you described. I was pretty clueless about that reality in actuality. :o

Dagga Boy
11-13-2015, 08:44 AM
Tons of issues. One of the finest patrol cops I ever worked with who likely made more solid felony arrests in patrol than anyone I have ever known at any agency was a big fat guy (we used to joke he just drove around with the back door open and crooks would just jump in). He was also a phenomenal shooter and made one of the best shots I have ever seen in a patrol shooting. Compare this to some of our folks who could run like gazelles and hadn't a clue what a crook looked like. Same with one of our female officers whose dad was one of the hardest, fittest monsters to ever wear a badge. She spent her time in the gun like her dad, but would circle the block on hot calls because she had serious fear issues.

Another issue is workmans comp. If you have a fitness standard should LE get benefits if hurt while working out. After my place lost a lawsuit, we dropped all annual fitness requirements. You had to get permission to maintain fitness for job related stuff. I had to drop out of Jiu Jitsu after the city denied it was work related, even though I was a use of force instructor....essentially, physical skills were not worth the possible payout. That is how the workplace feels about it......

I was full size most of my career and darn right fat after a couple of injuries. Never lost a foot chase, never had much of an issue and never particularly a huge issue. We had people too fat to do the job, too stupid, too small, too morally and ethically challenged (fittest guy to ever work at my place was fired for stalking girls from the gym), and just plain cowards. If cops give a crap, they will keep themselves in a level of shape to do the job. Others won't, and it is likely they have a bunch of other issues as well and it is up to the agency to address them.....which likely will never happen. In a nutshell....I ll take the fat guy I mentioned at the begining of this over Sgt. Super cop who just suicided in IL. when his digressions were coming to light.

BehindBlueI's
11-13-2015, 09:25 AM
The worst beating I saw an officer take, was a detective, in a 4'x6' interview room.

Maybe if he'd been better at sit-ups....

BehindBlueI's
11-13-2015, 09:28 AM
The chicks in the article were patrol officers and had been put on desk duty, not fired.

I understand that, but that's not my question. What's the point of having physical fitness standards if the "punishment" for failure is a desk job? Every load who wants off the streets just has to sandbag a run, and boom, admin slot. Then what?

Having standards with no real enforcement mechanism is worse than having no standards at all.

I know this is a kooky idea, but if you want to encourage fitness...why not REWARD those who are fit? Lower insurance rates, fitness bonus, that sort of thing.

KeeFus
11-13-2015, 09:55 AM
I understand that, but that's not my question. What's the point of having physical fitness standards if the "punishment" for failure is a desk job? Every load who wants off the streets just has to sandbag a run, and boom, admin slot. Then what?

Having standards with no real enforcement mechanism is worse than having no standards at all.

I know this is a kooky idea, but if you want to encourage fitness...why not REWARD those who are fit? Lower insurance rates, fitness bonus, that sort of thing.

^^^^This.

We started our physical fitness testing 3 years ago, with full implementation this year. Anyone who fails after 3 unsuccessful attempts is fired. There are only a handful that can not pass it but they are otherwise above average officers. Thankfully I have not failed the current version and now the State has come up with another POPAT.

This is a modified version that WSPD uses for new hires. Anywhere it says 10 pushups its actually 20...step ups is 30...rolling with the dummy is 3 times each time. the time limits on each event are the same.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3r_ubwhPmw0

Rob79
11-13-2015, 12:14 PM
From my reading of the article it looks like they are upset about losing the chance of overtime pay more then being put on desk duty.

Ptrlcop
11-13-2015, 02:35 PM
I agree that a fitness test is not a terrible thing. However I am not sure how running, push-ups and sit ups are all that job relevant.

I would be much more comfortable with a simple health risk assessment that included a cardiac stress test.

In 10 years I am confident that I've never had to run more than 400 meters and or do anything resembling push-ups. I will say that FAR more bad guys got away as a result of my investigative deficiencies than my physical ones.

WOLFIE
11-13-2015, 03:12 PM
What about an officer being paid just to take an anual fitness test and being paid more if he passes? I know i am not the first to suggest a reward system.

BehindBlueI's
11-13-2015, 03:21 PM
Why should SWAT be in better condition than patrol? SWAT was more guys, more guns, lots of waiting around, and a few minutes of action. It's not like we jogged to the calls. Patrol officers chased suspects and got in protracted fights waiting for backup.

I believe that age weighted, department wide fitness standards are a good thing. In many departments detectives work other details, and like the Marines, if it's big or bad enough everybody will be out in riot gear. Plus who says you're going to stay behind that desk forever? Where I was the Detective Bureau didn't offer a lifelong contract. Standards can help an agency or municipality cut insurance costs, which is good for you, the employee. You remain healthier, your costs might be less, and at contract time you can argue for more wages because insurance costs them less. ;)

Age weighted is horse shit, too. Proof it isn't a bonafide job requirement. If I need to be able to do 50 pushups to be a cop, then I need to do 50. A 25 year old patrolman and a 50 year old patrolman are doing the same job. If one needs 50, they both need 50. If one can get by with 20, then both can.

HCM
11-13-2015, 05:30 PM
From my reading of the article it looks like they are upset about losing the chance of overtime pay more then being put on desk duty.

i'm not a PT/DT guy but I can tell you cutting off overtime for failure to qualify with firearms has greatly reduced our Did Not Qualify (DNQ) rate and reduced the number of "frequent flyers" at subsequent remedial training.

Nationally we have a Health Improvement Program (HIP) which provides one hour, three times per week to work out if operational requirements allow. There are restrictions on the type of activity, generally Aerobic activity. Locally we have an annual team fitness challenge with winners getting paid time off.

Pup town
11-13-2015, 05:44 PM
I really didn't expect so many people to defend out-of-shape police officers.

I have a strong suspicion that I can tell the body type of the posters based on how they responded. The fat cops (and fat ex-cops) are the ones talking about how some of the fattest cops they know were good shots and made a lot of arrests, or how the biggest lard ass is their department's best detective.

The fit cops, well, they are the ones in favor of a PT test.

What if told you that you could be fit and still shoot and make arrests and conduct investigations? Also, blaming your excess weight on injuries is lame, unless your injuries prevented you from pushing yourself away from the dinner table.

I also believe that looking like you can take care of yourself goes a long way. Perception is reality. I heard this story at an academy, and it might very well be apocryphal, but here's how I remember it. Guy wakes ups and decides to kill a cop. He goes down to the street, and the first cop he sees is a strapping guy, big arms, his uniform is starched and tucked in nicely. Guy decides he doesn't want to tangle with this one. He finds another cop. This one has a USMC pin somewhere on his uniform. Guy thinks about how tough all Marines are, and decides he's going to keep looking. Next cop he comes across is fat, shirt is halfway untucked and he generally looks like a bag of donuts. Guy says, I can take this one. And he shoots him, or knifes him, or whatever. He explained his thought process after he was caught. This story might even be true, but regardless I think we can all agree that looking like you are going to be hard to kill doesn't have a lot of downside.

Pup town
11-13-2015, 05:51 PM
However I am not sure how running, push-ups and sit ups are all that job relevant.



I think we could design a better assessment, but the ideal assessment almost certainly would be either difficult to implement (requiring, say, lots of space or an obstacle course or specialized equipment) or impossible to grade objectively (like if we forced the tested person to fight someone).

What I know about being a fireman comes from watching TV, but I do like their PT test. Run a flight of stairs, dragged a weighted dummy, pull a hose, use a sledge, etc. More functional for their job requirements than how many pushups you do. Unfortunately, I can't come up with an equivalent test for law enforcement that's easy to grade that would emulate what a LEO does (or may be be called on to do in rare occasions, for you detectives who don't think you'll ever have to do anything physical again.)

Dagga Boy
11-13-2015, 06:03 PM
I really didn't expect so many people to defend out-of-shape police officers.

I have a strong suspicion that I can tell the body type of the posters based on how they responded. The fat cops (and fat ex-cops) are the ones talking about how some of the fattest cops they know were good shots and made a lot of arrests, or how the biggest lard ass is their department's best detective.

What if told you that you could be fit and still shoot and make arrests and conduct investigations? Also, blaming your excess weight on injuries is lame, unless your injuries prevented you from pushing yourself away from the dinner table.

Yep....I am a fatty. Always fought weight. Some of us do. Usually opinions like yours come from folks who have metabolism and body types that have never had to work to hard at it. At one point in my career I had to maintain 200 pounds and was weighed daily at work (Air Support). I had to be on an Atkins induction diet for four years. So yeah....I could be in better shape, but I guarantee it takes me far more work and dedication to it than others. As far as injury stuff.....that is pretty big statement but I guess its easy to throw that from wherever you are. How much time have you ever been on crap like Lyrica (that is straight from the Devil and would recommend never getting on it). But if you want to sit on your little high horse, have at it. My biggest point was I have seen the fittest cops in the world who sucked as cops, and fat guys who were legendary level cops. I would simply rather have good cops than crappy cops no matter what size they are. If you can be fit and good...great, and I agree it is an ideal. Unfortunately, cop world is not an ideal.

HCM
11-13-2015, 06:11 PM
It's been awhile, but as I recall San Francisco PD requires officers to take a PAT every 6 months. As I recall they're not fired if they don't pass but participation is mandatory and those meeting / exceeding standards are compensated. I'm not sure of the current compensation but it used to be paid vacation days.

http://www.sf-police.org/modules/ShowDocument.aspx?documentid=14822

Trooper224
11-13-2015, 06:38 PM
Some of the fittest cops I've worked with were the biggest pussies you can imagine. On the other hand, one of the shortest, dumpiest and oldest troops I ever worked with was as mean as a snake. Others would often look confused when I chose to have him at my back when things got sporty, but he was the most hardcore face shooter I've ever worked with. He didn't have the waist line or the biceps, but he sure as hell had the sand. That being said, we have an obligation to keep ourselves fit. Not neccesarily Army Ranger fit, but at least a level of fitness that allows us to do what we're paid for. Like Nyeti, I've had to keep on my weight over the years. I'm not a naturally thin guy. If I work out I look like a Freightliner, if I let myself go I quickly turn into the Stay Puff marshmellow man. Consequently, I spend four days a week in the gym when I'd rather be doing other things and have done so for years. Last week I had to get remeasured for my uniforms because my chest is getting too big for my uniform shirts, again. But better that that the waistline. I have no patience for those who look down their nose like Pup Town, but I also have absolutely no sympathy for my sisters over in Denver. You wanted to be a cop, so suck it the fuck up and be one. If that's too demanding for you, go teach Sunday school.

BehindBlueI's
11-13-2015, 06:39 PM
I really didn't expect so many people to defend out-of-shape police officers.

I have a strong suspicion that I can tell the body type of the posters based on how they responded. The fat cops (and fat ex-cops) are the ones talking about how some of the fattest cops they know were good shots and made a lot of arrests, or how the biggest lard ass is their department's best detective.

The fit cops, well, they are the ones in favor of a PT test.

What if told you that you could be fit and still shoot and make arrests and conduct investigations? Also, blaming your excess weight on injuries is lame, unless your injuries prevented you from pushing yourself away from the dinner table.

I also believe that looking like you can take care of yourself goes a long way. Perception is reality. I heard this story at an academy, and it might very well be apocryphal, but here's how I remember it. Guy wakes ups and decides to kill a cop. He goes down to the street, and the first cop he sees is a strapping guy, big arms, his uniform is starched and tucked in nicely. Guy decides he doesn't want to tangle with this one. He finds another cop. This one has a USMC pin somewhere on his uniform. Guy thinks about how tough all Marines are, and decides he's going to keep looking. Next cop he comes across is fat, shirt is halfway untucked and he generally looks like a bag of donuts. Guy says, I can take this one. And he shoots him, or knifes him, or whatever. He explained his thought process after he was caught. This story might even be true, but regardless I think we can all agree that looking like you are going to be hard to kill doesn't have a lot of downside.

Last man who kicked me during an arrest got thrown OVER a patrol car and landed in a little heap on the other side. Reckon it matters how many pushups I can do? Some folks are conflating pushups/situps/run with being able to fight or being strong and opposition to irrelevant standards to mean you can't pass them. The only test I'd have a problem with is a sprint test. I could probably pass, but I'd be off for 3 days to nurse my knee back in position afterward.

Dagga Boy
11-13-2015, 07:24 PM
I think we could design a better assessment, but the ideal assessment almost certainly would be either difficult to implement (requiring, say, lots of space or an obstacle course or specialized equipment) or impossible to grade objectively (like if we forced the tested person to fight someone).

What I know about being a fireman comes from watching TV, but I do like their PT test. Run a flight of stairs, dragged a weighted dummy, pull a hose, use a sledge, etc. More functional for their job requirements than how many pushups you do. Unfortunately, I can't come up with an equivalent test for law enforcement that's easy to grade that would emulate what a LEO does (or may be be called on to do in rare occasions, for you detectives who don't think you'll ever have to do anything physical again.)

As much as I think you are totally off base on your previous post, I do agree with this. My standard was always to be able to scale a 6 foot wall and climb chain link to higher height. I could always throw that 150 pound dummy around like a toy, and I do think fire tower climbs are a good test of core strength and stamina. Those are all applicable to cop work. I could never do pull ups, even when I was body building in college and would have been fit by anyone's standards. I could squat, calf lift and leg press like an animal, so "fit" is very subjective. I can do calf lifts with 7 45 lb. plates, but don't run worth a crap (and never have, even when "fit"). So are my legs not in shape? Is the person who can run marathons but struggles on the 150 lb. dummy be a cop? We had a 6'8" mid 300 pound giant and another guy who was a offensive lineman at USC. I REALLY liked working with them over others who could run long distance.

I think all would agree that a "standard" should exist and be required. That standard should be from start to finish and applicable to all. Something reasonable and really applicable and a solid guide. I knew it was time to stop fighting medical retirement when even after years of rehab and therapy to learn to walk again and wear shoes I found that without feeling in one foot, I couldn't climb chain link and that could get somebody hurt more than the fact that I couldn't do pull ups.

PD Sgt.
11-13-2015, 09:27 PM
RI am in favor of fitness tests for those who are in uniformed positions or specialty positions that are physically demanding (K9, SWAT, Gang Unit as examples). That includes those who work plainclothes/suit assignments who work uniformed extra duty or side jobs. If you are in uniform in the public eye and can be required to respond to a demand for service then you should have to pass the test. I do not see a need to make a 55 year old Homicide detective do pushups.

I also agree with Nyeti and others that traditional metrics such as pushups or pullups are probably not the best means of evaluating fitness. Obstacles, dummy drags, short duration (1/2 mile or so) runs, vehicle pushes, and stair climbs are examples of events I would feel are better evaluations of fitness for duty. Fighting is a bit subjective (and potentially injurious) so maybe X amount of strikes to a heavy bag in a given time frame. I do not expect a level of fitness asked of Rangers, but it should be demanding, as that also tests will, another key aspect of performance.

My department has an optional fitness test with incentives for scoring well. Extra money and vacation time. The test is not particularly demanding, many I consider out of shape pass at the high level. The city is all for it, as they save more in insurance with a high pass rate than they pay out in incentives.

One of the problems I have seen comes from the unions. They do not have the good of the order in mind, they have the good of the member. They will defend the right of the morbidly obese to work a cruiser and not address the fact that other officers are placed at risk when they have to race to a scene to help him when he is physically unable. There are officers out there that do not realize or do not care about the risk they expose others to when they are unable to do their job. Kind of an entitlement mentality.

John Hearne
11-14-2015, 12:06 PM
First, let's get this out of the way - having aerobic conditioning, anaerobic conditioning, and strength does not guarantee that one is a good police officer. Being fit doesn't replace "heart" and "grit" when it comes to a fight. With that said, fitness confers many advantages that can be very valuable in the field and while at home. All other things being equal, a more fit officer will be able to do the job better, will be less likely to be injured, and have better emotional resiliency than the unfit.

I look at it in terms of advantaging. I want to collect as many advantages as I can and diminish the disadvantages I face. I see no benefit to deliberately handicapping myself by being less fit.

How we measure fitness is a different issue. This has been studied for a long time. Since we can't put people into knock down drag out fights to evaluate them for fitness, we have to find other metrics that predict performance. Running 1.5 miles is almost never required in LE. However, the person who can run run 1.5 miles in 11 minutes will generally have better aerobic conditioning than the guy who can only do it in 16 minutes. The person who can perform 30 pushups is going to have more upper body strength than the person who can only do 5. Do we need upper body strength and aerobic conditioning? If so these measures do have relevance.

Our PT test has changed from five events (bench press, agility run, 1.5 mile run, flexibility, and body fat percentage) to three events (bench press, 1.5 mile run and agility run). Why? Because flexibility hasn't been correlated with job performance and neither has body fact percentage. And guess what, the guys who perform better on the fitness tests are more fit.

Dagga Boy
11-14-2015, 01:03 PM
I disagree with the idea that the person who can do 30 push ups has more upper body strength than the person who can only do five.

I ll give a practical example....the 6' 8" mid 300's pound guy I worked with was not particularly fat....just huge. He was also in what I would call average shape. I doubt he could do 30 push ups. What I do know is that I had a combative suspect in a full Nelson one night while he was hitting him with massive punches in the front (I was essentially using the bad guy as a shield). It hurt me through the crook. The level of sheer strength I was feeling was impressive. Could a 140 pound cop who could do 60 push ups generate this? Also, watching his and a couple other guys do the dummy drag was actually funny. I will say with authority that if the 140 pound cop was ever hurt, he would want the 6'8" 350 guy rescuing him rather than the "most fit" 120 pounder. That is not disparaging to either one, because for every 6' 8" 350 plus pound cop it is likely good to have an incredibly fit 5'6" 120 one, assuming both have great mind set. Reality.....they will never be good at the same things physically.

I am of the opinion that cop work is like a dynamic team sport. You need a little of everything on the team. A football team made up of all wide receivers and cornerbacks would not be good. A Volleyball team of all defensive specialists would get killed, as would a football team of all offensive tackles or a volleyball team of all middle blockers. Police work is a team contact sport. The goal would be to find a means of testing that gets you a good team. Also we need to look at some serious issues as far as "fit". I worked 19 years of nights. All generally late swings or graves and a majority of that on weekends. I know pup town will call it a pussy excuse, but working graves is not healthy or natural. Working weekend nights for that long is going to cause long term issues. Sure, it is easy to say eat carrots and celery and hit the gym instead of sleeping between EOW and court, but then there is reality. Shift work, diverse assignments, and diverse needs all seem to beckon for some kind of diverse standard.

As I said earlier, I always thought the 6 foot wall was a good standard, because it is something urban cops have to be able to do. Dummy drag also has merit, and stair climbs is also something that may come into play (I could see something like doing a tower climb with a time or carrying weight as an option for the individual to choose). I am sure some smart people can figure something out that is fairly neutral.

Genetics are also huge. The fittest cop I know (my kids Godfather) was a record setting linebacker, gym rat, insanely fit and decided a few years ago to start going for a more balanced approach and was doing a variety of workouts to emphasize full body balance. Guy is amazingly cut, eats For health and not pleasure (he is the guy who really eats nothing but stuff like boneless skinless grilled organic chicken and organic vegetables). Problem is....crappy genes and just had a triple by-pass and nearly died from a heart attack at 40. I may have the slowest metabolism on the planet, but I also got genetically low cholesterol along with genetic high blood pressure. We had a LT. who was the picture of what we would call fit. Tall, lean, athletic, never showed his age....and literally lives on several pots of black coffee and chain smokes........I would say he is fit...but not healthy (although he is in his mid sixties with zero health issues). So.....again, what is the answer? Hard to say.

BehindBlueI's
11-14-2015, 01:47 PM
I disagree with the idea that the person who can do 30 push ups has more upper body strength than the person who can only do five.

I ll give a practical example....the 6' 8" mid 300's pound guy I worked with was not particularly fat....just huge. He was also in what I would call average shape. I doubt he could do 30 push ups. What I do know is that I had a combative suspect in a full Nelson one night while he was hitting him with massive punches in the front (I was essentially using the bad guy as a shield). It hurt me through the crook. The level of sheer strength I was feeling was impressive. Could a 140 pound cop who could do 60 push ups generate this? Also, watching his and a couple other guys do the dummy drag was actually funny. I will say with authority that if the 140 pound cop was ever hurt, he would want the 6'8" 350 guy rescuing him rather than the "most fit" 120 pounder. That is not disparaging to either one, because for every 6' 8" 350 plus pound cop it is likely good to have an incredibly fit 5'6" 120 one, assuming both have great mind set. Reality.....they will never be good at the same things physically.

I am of the opinion that cop work is like a dynamic team sport. You need a little of everything on the team. A football team made up of all wide receivers and cornerbacks would not be good. A Volleyball team of all defensive specialists would get killed, as would a football team of all offensive tackles or a volleyball team of all middle blockers. Police work is a team contact sport. The goal would be to find a means of testing that gets you a good team. Also we need to look at some serious issues as far as "fit". I worked 19 years of nights. All generally late swings or graves and a majority of that on weekends. I know pup town will call it a pussy excuse, but working graves is not healthy or natural. Working weekend nights for that long is going to cause long term issues. Sure, it is easy to say eat carrots and celery and hit the gym instead of sleeping between EOW and court, but then there is reality. Shift work, diverse assignments, and diverse needs all seem to beckon for some kind of diverse standard.

As I said earlier, I always thought the 6 foot wall was a good standard, because it is something urban cops have to be able to do. Dummy drag also has merit, and stair climbs is also something that may come into play (I could see something like doing a tower climb with a time or carrying weight as an option for the individual to choose). I am sure some smart people can figure something out that is fairly neutral.

Genetics are also huge. The fittest cop I know (my kids Godfather) was a record setting linebacker, gym rat, insanely fit and decided a few years ago to start going for a more balanced approach and was doing a variety of workouts to emphasize full body balance. Guy is amazingly cut, eats For health and not pleasure (he is the guy who really eats nothing but stuff like boneless skinless grilled organic chicken and organic vegetables). Problem is....crappy genes and just had a triple by-pass and nearly died from a heart attack at 40. I may have the slowest metabolism on the planet, but I also got genetically low cholesterol along with genetic high blood pressure. We had a LT. who was the picture of what we would call fit. Tall, lean, athletic, never showed his age....and literally lives on several pots of black coffee and chain smokes........I would say he is fit...but not healthy (although he is in his mid sixties with zero health issues). So.....again, what is the answer? Hard to say.

Exactly. Like I said earlier, body weight exercises aren't the whole story. How much energy you can generate is what's relevant. As a farm boy, I'm sure some of the little guys could do more pushups then me. Not many could throw more hay, though. When I was in the Army, if there was a telephone pole to telephone pole sprint, I'd be one of the last in the battalion. Load us up with a 55 lb of gear and hump it 15 km, and I'd be one of the first. The extra weight didn't bother me, it wasn't as much percentage wise to me as it was a smaller man, but I couldn't sprint to save my own ass. I'm a plow horse, not a race horse. Add in a knee injury and that's compounded.

Now, as far as the "all hands on deck", that may be the case in smaller departments. I know for us the city could be on fire and they aren't pulling 50 year old female sergeants out of Homicide and putting them on a street corner. Your department may be different. We've got a SWAT guy who's a full time range instructor and he still rolls with SWAT to drive the armor vehicle and observe and advise. He's got his ankle fused together and some other injuries. No way in hell he runs a mile. He's asked the doctors to amputate and give him a carbon fiber blade foot so he can run again, but they say it's not to that point. He is a certified bad ass, an experienced tactician and shooter, an asset to this department like few others, and I'd take him as a partner in a gunfight in a heart beat. Any policy that puts him out of role is a shitty policy, period. You don't break guys and then throw them away. You use their experience and knowledge in other ways. Again, I understand a 15 man department doesn't have the luxuries that a 1500 man or 15000 man department does. I'm glad to work for one that's big enough to allow specialization, even if we don't always adequately use it.

Dagga Boy
11-14-2015, 02:06 PM
I thought I was the only one who thought amputating my foot may be a better option than its current condition. Sadly,the injury was mostly from a lack of treatment from the city than the initial injury because of a workmans comp pissing contest. It was actually the threat of amputation by my doctor that got the city to move, but the surgery needed to remove the broken off bones (left in for months) required cutting through the nerve packs for the foot that had grown around them. Looking back, the amputation may have been a better route. Of course....just an excuse as some look at it.

The reality, I understand from a business stand point that hiring two 23 year old cops for what I was costing for a highly paid broken one makes sense...I just do not understand the need to screw you as hard as possible in the process. Honestly, it is a nice thought, but all those decades of experience are really meaningless and of no value to most organizations. This is another related issue. What to do with people who get hurt. Currently, it is VERY political in how that is handled. There is massive corruption on both sides and no common sense, rhyme or reason to the entire process.

There are some places that have age maximums, and 20 year retirements that in reality make sense for a lot of first responders. It is trying to figure out a way to make that really work with some level of fairness.

stingray
11-14-2015, 03:09 PM
Since I'm not a LEO my opinion doesn't really matter much, but I'm completely convinced that my wife (who has been an LEO for the past 17+ years) is alive today and still on the job -- after a 7.62x39 round shattered her femur/trochanter and destroyed a couple of inches of her femoral artery -- because she is both mentally and physically strong (and that BCSO had recently started issuing SOFTT-Ws). She's all of 5'6" and 120 lbs. and, according to ED reports, lost 2.5-3 liters of blood (which is over 70% of her total blood volume).

4387

Her department doesn't have mandatory ongoing fitness tests, but the year before she got shot they started doing voluntary testing and she won the "most fit" award. I think she got to take a couple of days off because of that. :)

I would have to say there is a very real possibility she not only survived, but won because of her level of fitness!!!

voodoo_man
11-14-2015, 03:45 PM
Personally speaking, I am totally for age caps in LE, specifically for patrol. Mandatory retirement at 50 or 20/25 years of service to collect pension right away. If you are in a purely investigative role and will never patrol the streets, especially if you are in a position that requires a lot of training (SVU/Forensics/etc) then you can stay based on a "need" basis which should be re-evaluated every year. Supervisory positions fall under patrol unless they are investigative in nature, top brass of a dept fall under the age cap as a mandatory retirement age this provides fresh ideas and lack of stagnation.

What does all this do for LE and the communities which are served combined with fairly standard levels of fitness requirements, it provides for capable officer's who are working towards their retirement to be able to progress and gain experience in various positions while knowing they have a specific time period before they are forced to retire and take a pension from that PD.

BehindBlueI's
11-14-2015, 04:48 PM
Personally speaking, I am totally for age caps in LE, specifically for patrol. Mandatory retirement at 50

50-ish cop, Larry Wilson.
http://www.theindychannel.com/news/local-news/2-impd-officers-hurt-trying-to-rescue-2-people-from-south-side-fire
http://www.wibc.com/blogs/impd-officer-saves-autistic-child

Probably can't do many pushups, either. That said, Larry backed me up once when I really needed backup and he's welcome to again any time.

Dagga Boy
11-14-2015, 05:30 PM
I know tons of 50 plus studs. With that said one of the biggest bad asses to pin on a badge is Lt Jeff Hall from the Alaska State Troopers. Mandatory retirement at 20 years as it is not a old guys sport up there. If you are really out working, it is hard to get to 20 without significant injuries.

voodoo_man
11-14-2015, 05:57 PM
Of course there are exceptions to every rule in every department. I did not say people are no longer viable after 50,that's just not true, but for patrol specifically, there are more young guys who get out there and get sork done than older guys. Plus at 50 plus you are either looking forward to retirement or trying to figure out how not to get hurt.

I was injured 4 times on duty that required months of PT and/or serious medical assistance. Lots of smaller injuries too,but i wasnt out for long with them. You get hurt its a fact of the job. Im not the only one either plenty of guys i graduated with gor injured, few even retired due to it. Being physically capable mitigates that.

Dagga Boy
11-14-2015, 11:11 PM
Yep. I spent my entire career in patrol and had a rank that required 17 years of actual street time. Injuries were constant and common from day one. The problem is that if you are a worker, you will be getting hurt regularly. You stop bouncing back from them as you get older and some of the stuff gets to be a huge issue over time. By the time things are getting to heavily degenerative, arthritic, and you are in essentially constant pain...it makes the job tough. Yea, you can still do it, but stuff that was no big deal in your twenties is a big deal in your forties and later.

On fitness.....I had a great evening hosting Tom's wife and we talked a little about this thread. The conclusion......I could easily break her in half with my bare hands, and she wouldn't be remotely winded while it was happening due to her fitness level. We had a pretty good laugh over it. The conclusion she is fit and great mindset (her initial response when we started talking about it was that she would just shoot me if I looked at her wrong;)), and size does matter and fitness won't fix that in any practical way. Of course worthless cops are worthless no matter if they are pint sized, morbidly obese, or in between, and that is its own problem.

BehindBlueI's
11-14-2015, 11:23 PM
Of course there are exceptions to every rule in every department. I did not say people are no longer viable after 50,that's just not true....

Then why support a mandatory retirement age? Fitness for duty evals can be done on an individual basis. I just can't get behind throwing people away because they hit a certain age. We've got a maximum hiring age, and I don't care for that as it's juuuust too low to allow a 20 year military vet to get on. How many quality candidates does that cost us? Louisville Metro doesn't have a max age. I saw a few guys get hired in their 40s and 50s. More power to them, I sure wouldn't want to be a 50 year old rookie.

For the record, my intent is to retire at 52 and skip out the door as I do it.

voodoo_man
11-15-2015, 01:42 AM
Then why support a mandatory retirement age? Fitness for duty evals can be done on an individual basis. I just can't get behind throwing people away because they hit a certain age. We've got a maximum hiring age, and I don't care for that as it's juuuust too low to allow a 20 year military vet to get on. How many quality candidates does that cost us? Louisville Metro doesn't have a max age. I saw a few guys get hired in their 40s and 50s. More power to them, I sure wouldn't want to be a 50 year old rookie.

For the record, my intent is to retire at 52 and skip out the door as I do it.

Every dept has an exception, I worked with one, 54yrs old, 32 years on the job and he knew his shit. He was the exception by far, we have more than a few since my pd is larger. However, the overwhelming majority of the 50 and over crowd? Pretty much worthless, especially (not being sexist, just stating from personal experience) female officers.

There is a constant and consistent trend ive seen and am a part of myself, those officers who work out and are physically fit are usually the go getters. The officers who aren't, aren't, this is for both genders and not dependent on rank.

Furthermore, my personal opinion on the matter is that mil vets should be allowed to circumvent some of the hiring process, especially if they have combat experience, age being one of them.

LE is a young mans game, its not for everyone and it has a very shorty lifespan of worthwhile work someone can put in.

LSP552
11-15-2015, 09:08 AM
At one time, LSP had a max hiring age but that got struck down by the feds, IIRC. As a results, we started getting some prior military folks in their 40s. Most of these worked out well. However, patrol work is not an old man's game. Working patrol in rural areas where backup is 20 minutes away (if you are lucky) is really NOT an old man's game. Not everyone has a chance to move from patrol into other sections, and often these other sections also have decent fitness needs.

I personally believe fitness is important, but it's certainly not everything. And the courts have pretty much said that fitness requirements need to be job related. I think most agencies probably do a decent job turning out fit folks from the academy. Where agencies tend to fail is keeping them fit over a career. IMO, agencies should incentivize this with on-duty workout time, paid gym memberships if they lack facilities, etc. Only when you provide the means, and give folks time to get there, can you hold folks to a standard.

voodoo_man
11-15-2015, 09:40 AM
I completely agree with incentives for keeping fit. However, I highly doubt it'll be anything worth while from most PD's

LSP552
11-15-2015, 10:15 AM
I completely agree with incentives for keeping fit. However, I highly doubt it'll be anything worth while from most PD's

Oh, I agree. Short-sighted "leaders" don't understand that the loss of 3 hrs a week duty time for fitness would be off-set by lower injury rates, missed time due to illness, lower health insurance rates, etc. Not to mention just concern for their troop's general welfare

KeeFus
11-15-2015, 11:24 AM
Not to mention just concern for their troop's general welfare

I LOL'd.

We get a workout hour, we have our own gym, and we are tested yearly which means that 2 months out from the PT test everyone (me included) starts using the equipment. One of our guys who is in great shape rides a bike almost daily and is out more because injuries than any other person I have seen in my 20+ years of LE experience. Great cop and leader but his level of fitness doesn't equate to being at work more.

Lets be honest, lower insurance rates for the employer doesn't translate into more money for the employees...it equals more money for the management to put into other programs. They dont really give a shit about the welfare of the employee...especially as they near retirement age no matter what they say.

The POPAT I linked earlier is new in that the State just came out with it in July and its not mandatory for anyone other than BLET academy recruits. However a lot of agencies here are now adding it into their evaluation process which is what our admin has done. There are no age considerations when you take the test and its a pass/fail event. As mentioned by others, policing is a young mans game, especially patrol. Most days I start off with a cup of coffee and 600-800 mg of Motrin...and Im 44 and in OK shape. So with a little more than 5 years to retirement I have to take the same test and pass it under the same time constraints as a 21 year old. I will do it as usual but it just seems like another hurdle that has been placed in front of a lot of us older guys that are closing in on retirement.

ETA: retirement here is you either get your 30 and retire or you can retire at age 55 if you have enough time. I will have 30 at ~49.

LittleLebowski
11-15-2015, 11:34 AM
I don't see a way to differentiate between the say "old & beat up but asset to the department and still a badass" cop and the "fat POS." I am of course, way out of my lane here.

GardoneVT
11-15-2015, 11:46 AM
***raises hand***

How likely is it a desk-assigned LEO would find themselves in a sudden "all hands on deck" situation, such as the Laurel Canyon incident (among others) ? I don't want to refute the valid point that a genious investigator with grit won't necessarily be a PT stud, but if SHTF in a big way won't the folks behind the desks need to hit the street too?

I ask as it was that reason why I hit the gym frequently as a finance troop. Naturally my career field was about as far from "tip of the spear" as you can get in the USAF , and on a day to day basis in terms of my job being in super good shape was virtually meaningless- but that didn't mean I'd always be behind a desk. If I got tagged for a prize trip to USCENTCOM ,I didn't want to use my free time trying to do six months of PT in two.

In that scenario id at least have warning of Impending Need for Fitness.Most LEOs at a desk won't get documented notice when Serious Trouble appears in the public square. Wouldn't a deskbound troop be a liability if they haven't maintained a basic standard of fitness?

voodoo_man
11-15-2015, 12:12 PM
***raises hand***

How likely is it a desk-assigned LEO would find themselves in a sudden "all hands on deck" situation, such as the Laurel Canyon incident (among others) ? I don't want to refute the valid point that a genious investigator with grit won't necessarily be a PT stud, but if SHTF in a big way won't the folks behind the desks need to hit the street too?

I ask as it was that reason why I hit the gym frequently as a finance troop. Naturally my career field was about as far from "tip of the spear" as you can get in the USAF , and on a day to day basis in terms of my job being in super good shape was virtually meaningless- but that didn't mean I'd always be behind a desk. If I got tagged for a prize trip to USCENTCOM ,I didn't want to use my free time trying to do six months of PT in two.

In that scenario id at least have warning of Impending Need for Fitness.Most LEOs at a desk won't get documented notice when Serious Trouble appears in the public square. Wouldn't a deskbound troop be a liability if they haven't maintained a basic standard of fitness?

I have only ever seen one time when detectives and desk-bitches get up, dust their vests off, grab another mag and run out onto the street. That was when one of our guys got killed during a bank robbery and the shooter was able to slip away. It was the equivalent of a third world country going into civil war and we left no stone idle nor a door closed. That was one time, they simply do not do it otherwise, they are not really required or expected to.

BehindBlueI's
11-15-2015, 03:57 PM
***raises hand***

How likely is it a desk-assigned LEO would find themselves in a sudden "all hands on deck" situation, such as the Laurel Canyon incident (among others) ? I don't want to refute the valid point that a genious investigator with grit won't necessarily be a PT stud, but if SHTF in a big way won't the folks behind the desks need to hit the street too?

I ask as it was that reason why I hit the gym frequently as a finance troop. Naturally my career field was about as far from "tip of the spear" as you can get in the USAF , and on a day to day basis in terms of my job being in super good shape was virtually meaningless- but that didn't mean I'd always be behind a desk. If I got tagged for a prize trip to USCENTCOM ,I didn't want to use my free time trying to do six months of PT in two.

In that scenario id at least have warning of Impending Need for Fitness.Most LEOs at a desk won't get documented notice when Serious Trouble appears in the public square. Wouldn't a deskbound troop be a liability if they haven't maintained a basic standard of fitness?

Not impossible, but not likely. Especially in a large city. Even if we have a riot, there's still homicides that aren't riot related. There's still robberies that need to be investigated. If there's a police action shooting, that still has to be investigated and vetted. All hands on deck doesn't mean everyone puts on their helmet and lines up on the street. We have cancelled days off where everyone has to be at work, but major felony detectives are generally still in their normal position if they aren't also on voluntary special squads. Some detectives may be placed on roving or traffic, and some admin probably will as well.

There's a fine line with fitness. Ok, it's not that fine. Let me rephrase. There's a wide swath of fitness that's acceptable. Guys on the extremes are the issue. BOTH extremes. Anyone who runs a metric shit ton or lifts a lot of weights will eventually hurt themselves. There will be repetitive motion injuries, there will be joint issues, there will be muscle strains, etc. Fat asses can stroke out trying to lever themselves out of the car...or rock themselves to sleep before they make it out.

I know it's unlikely these days, but having a partner who has different strengths and weaknesses can solve a lot of these issues. I used to love having a short petite female officer as a partner. I've been described in court by a judge as "gruff and intimidating in appearance and demeanor" and...that's probably fair. People who wouldn't open the door for me would open the door and talk to her. I'd just ride her coattails into a suspect's house. We had different perspectives on things. The sum of our partnership was more than either of us as individuals.

Rex G
11-15-2015, 09:01 PM
I am age 54, with 32 years of service. My duty belt size has not changed since I was a tall, skinny cadet those 32 years ago, though I have put on a few pounds above and below my belt line. I can cover several miles of ground, with a combination of fast walking and brief slow jogs, wearing duty boots, which I maintain by keeping my energetic German Shepherd pup adequately exercised, but I will never voluntarily sprint on pavement again, knowing my knees will ache for weeks afterward. One shoulder, my formerly strong-side shoulder, has become very limited in what it can do, but as overhead baton strikes are no longer kosher, and I am not issued OC grenades, perhaps it is not such a loss.

We have a PAT test, which is voluntary for officers hired before a specific date. I would be glad to take that test, except for slaloming around those stupid cones, which my bad knee cannot handle quickly enough to make the time cut, but that part is first, and unless we pass that part, within the allotted time, we are told to go home, so I would never reach the push-ups, sit-ups, 1.5-mile run, the shorter-distance sprint, etc. So, should I retire? Well, with hiring unable to keep pace with attrition, I would not be replaced; my colleagues would have to do more, with less. Until I feel I am a liability, I may as well stay a while longer.

I predict I will leave within the age 55 to 57 bracket, unless some special niche miraculously opens in a specialized division. (I am not detective material; verbal communication is not my thing.)

Interestingly, once upon a time, we had a realistic, practical obstacle course, that included such things as various heights of walls, going through windows, and carrying a simulated child through and over some of these windows and obstacles, while wearing duty gear. That one made sense, but I ran it as part of a one-off experiment; it was not implemented.

Foot chases; hah! A recent foot chase policy was worded in such a way that if we pursue, alone, and then find ourselves having to use deadly force, we have apparently made an error in judgment, and "should not" have pursued, but instead started setting-up a perimeter. The union has advised us not to pursue on foot.

My worst issue is that if I find myself on the deck, for whatever reason, I cannot get to my feet very quickly. That is mostly a risk to myself, as we patrol alone, so I accept it. I had just better not stumble when dancing with cars on the freeway, directing traffic around crash scenes!

One of our sergeants, with K9, is in his early sixties, and still going strong, able to keep up with his dog, moving like a person fifteen or twenty years younger. His dog was a mis-fit, about to be rejected, but the sergeant really knows dogs, and sorted it out. To say a person cannot handle street duty at fifty or fifty-five is not taking into account such folks as this sergeant. (IIRC, everyone in K9 is required to complete the PAT successfully each year.)

tanner
11-16-2015, 12:44 PM
This is one of the rare threads where I find myself nodding in agreement to both sides of the argument.

One thing is for certain, there is no clear or simple administrative answer to these issues.

Sammy1
11-16-2015, 04:04 PM
I'm in complete agreement with the posters relating overweight or out of shape Officers being the best backup they had and better cops than some of the health gurus, but I worked with a guy who was well past his prime and didn't take care of himself. Job tried to remove him as unfit and he fought and won (did the duck walk in his doctor's office and passed.) One day an officer was in a jam on the second floor and the above mentioned officer couldn't make it up the stairs to assist. This guy was an extreme case and needed a hip replacement but he never would have passed a yearly PT test if we had one in place. We need to take care of ourselves. In the past I've let myself go by working OT instead of working out and I don't want to be in that position again.

rathos
11-19-2015, 03:31 PM
Jeff taught my NRA handgun instructor school. One hell of a guy and pretty sure he could still be doing the job if he really wanted to.


I know tons of 50 plus studs. With that said one of the biggest bad asses to pin on a badge is Lt Jeff Hall from the Alaska State Troopers. Mandatory retirement at 20 years as it is not a old guys sport up there. If you are really out working, it is hard to get to 20 without significant injuries.

Dagga Boy
11-19-2015, 05:56 PM
Jeff taught my NRA handgun instructor school. One hell of a guy and pretty sure he could still be doing the job if he really wanted to.

Yes, Jeff could still outshoot most cops, he can still hit you harder than most were ever capable of, has a confirmed kill switch, and yet was forced to retire at 20 years. In an environment where you fly a plane to your calls, often alone, it sort of makes sense.

If departments were smart and out of the box thinkers, a means would be developed to maximize younger officers in patrol work, and after a decade or so, then start moving them around. At twenty plus, especially if everyone does ten on the street, you would have some super experienced folks to put in thinking jobs rather than ass-kicking jobs. Trust me, management folks who actually did a minimum of ten on the street would be MUCH better than what we often get, which is folks who were experts at getting out of the tough part of LE and then end up running departments when all they are really qualified for is ordering toilet paper.

voodoo_man
11-19-2015, 10:13 PM
Yes, Jeff could still outshoot most cops, he can still hit you harder than most were ever capable of, has a confirmed kill switch, and yet was forced to retire at 20 years. In an environment where you fly a plane to your calls, often alone, it sort of makes sense.

If departments were smart and out of the box thinkers, a means would be developed to maximize younger officers in patrol work, and after a decade or so, then start moving them around. At twenty plus, especially if everyone does ten on the street, you would have some super experienced folks to put in thinking jobs rather than ass-kicking jobs. Trust me, management folks who actually did a minimum of ten on the street would be MUCH better than what we often get, which is folks who were experts at getting out of the tough part of LE and then end up running departments when all they are really qualified for is ordering toilet paper.

Hey there, watch that common sense stuff, no room in LE top brass for that.

John Hearne
11-20-2015, 12:58 PM
I really like the requirement that management actually spend considerable time in the field. Ten years would be great but it probably a bit optimistic. I'd settle for five. I've always wondered about the motives of people who sprinted to get up and out of the field.

voodoo_man
11-20-2015, 02:22 PM
I really like the requirement that management actually spend considerable time in the field. Ten years would be great but it probably a bit optimistic. I'd settle for five. I've always wondered about the motives of people who sprinted to get up and out of the field.

LE should require a "lead from the front" type of supervision. If you cant do the job, you cannot expect others to play by you rules.

Shellback
11-21-2015, 07:15 AM
I know this is a kooky idea, but if you want to encourage fitness...why not REWARD those who are fit? Lower insurance rates, fitness bonus, that sort of thing.

I always thought the Metro guys, and one NHP, who came to BJJ and rolled should either get time paid or department funding to help offset the cost. Staying physically fit, learning H2H combatives for the job, and interacting with the public in a positive manner are all a net gain.

Sample of 1... Both these officers involved in this helicopter crash (http://www.reviewjournal.com/news/las-vegas/mechanical-problem-reported-metro-helicopter-accident) were on the mat every week and credited BJJ and being in shape with surviving their crash with "minimal injuries."

Dagga Boy
11-24-2015, 07:20 PM
Best working shape I was in was when rolling four days a week and was regularly rolling with 6 different opponents coming in fresh every five minutes. I cannot see anything better for applicability to cop work as the ability to essentially fight for 30 minutes. Of course, I got essentially ordered to quit as it was not relevant to my job as a use of force instructor. Proved that safety and capabilities of officers was on no way a priority.

Also.....we had a 185 pound dummy on the range this weekend for a class. Yea, I can't run really well, but I can still pick one up fully off the ground and not drag, but actually carry it fairly easily. Made me feel like I still had it for an old broken dude.

John Hearne
12-01-2015, 08:55 PM
While not directed at LE, I thought this article had some interesting insights into the role of fitness. This section really clarified an earlier comment by Nyeti:

"Aerobic fitness is an important quality in combat, but running tests provide an advantage to lighter individuals. As loads are added to an individual, the effects to lighter individuals are more deleterious. Simply stated, larger Marines can carry greater loads with less performance degradation."

Link:
http://warontherocks.com/2015/12/sports-science-physiology-and-the-debate-over-women-in-ground-combat-units/

BehindBlueI's
12-01-2015, 09:06 PM
While not directed at LE, I thought this article had some interesting insights into the role of fitness. This section really clarified an earlier comment by Nyeti:

"Aerobic fitness is an important quality in combat, but running tests provide an advantage to lighter individuals. As loads are added to an individual, the effects to lighter individuals are more deleterious. Simply stated, larger Marines can carry greater loads with less performance degradation."

Link:
http://warontherocks.com/2015/12/sports-science-physiology-and-the-debate-over-women-in-ground-combat-units/

Yup. Like I said early on, a phone pole to phone pole sprint and I was one of the last guys in the battalion. Strap on a flak jacket, weapon, ruck, etc. and move out over 10km or so and I'd be one of the first. Some of us are built for the Kentucky Derby, some of us are built to pull plows.

psalms144.1
12-02-2015, 02:03 PM
Yup. Like I said early on, a phone pole to phone pole sprint and I was one of the last guys in the battalion. Strap on a flak jacket, weapon, ruck, etc. and move out over 10km or so and I'd be one of the first. Some of us are built for the Kentucky Derby, some of us are built to pull plows.When I was stationed at Ft. Lewis, we had two Special Operations units on base - the 75th Ranger Regiment, and the 1st Special Forces Group. The Rangers all had high and tights, were all rapier thin, and could all run like the wind. The SF guys were all "shaggy," and, frankly, some of them looked a little pudgy in their BDUs. Go to the field, and in the first 72 hours, the Rangers were MONSTERS, and could literally run circles around everyone. By about day 10, most of us (Rangers included) were pretty well "whipped," and the SF guys were just hitting their stride. There was no quit in them, and their endurance (and "energy reserves") worked to their advantage.

Likewise, as an Infantry Officer, I was frequently told I was a "slug" for "only" maxing the 2-mile run, instead of finishing in less than the time allotted for a 100 point score. This frequently came from officers who could barely pass the push up and sit up events, while I was handily knocking out triple digit raw repetitions in both. And, of over 400 candidates for the Expert Infantryman's Badge, only one other guy (a 1st SFG dude) beat me on the 12-mile ruck march (with 45 pound pack and what passed for "full battle rattle" back in the day).

Again, I see the advantage to physical fitness, but, just like one handgun doesn't fit every shooter, one test doesn't fit every officer. And, frankly, the overwhelming majority of fitness tests are hopelessly skewed towards running events, because you don't need any equipment for those.

Of course, nowadays, my most stringent work out is running laps around a slice of bacon pizza, so, my opinion must be taken strictly in that light!

Trooper224
12-02-2015, 04:43 PM
I've never been a runner, even in my teens. I'm six feet even and a muscular 280 pounds and I suck at pull ups too as gravity is not my friend. My entire adult life has been in one uniform or another and running has always been part of the training. With bad knees and flat feet, when I run I look like a three legged mule. We used to do eight mile runs in the academy and I'd be stomping along like the Bataan Death March wondering, "What's with all this running shit?" Some of my classmates could run like a gazel and I'd plead to the Lord, "Baby Jesus, why can't I get a little of that?" When it came time for defense tactics I could throw you across the room, but that running shit................

LSP552
12-02-2015, 09:09 PM
I've never been a runner, even in my teens. I'm six feet even and a muscular 280 pounds and I suck at pull ups too as gravity is not my friend. My entire adult life has been in one uniform or another and running has always been part of the training. With bad knees and flat feet, when I run I look like a three legged mule. We used to do eight mile runs in the academy and I'd be stomping along like the Bataan Death March wondering, "What's with all this running shit?" Some of my classmates could run like a gazel and I'd plead to the Lord, "Baby Jesus, why can't I get a little of that?" When it came time for defense tactics I could throw you across the room, but that running shit................

I have a good friend exactly like you. He's another old LSP SWAT and firearms instructor retiree. RD is a big barrel chested American Indian who starved himself to make weight for the LSP Academy. He ain't a runner, but he is the last person on earth I'd want to have put their hands on me. He is also the most well-rounded shooter I've ever seen. If it goes bang, he shoots it better than most.

He responded to a disturbance call where an idiot stepped out on the porch and leveled a scoped rifle at him. R drew his issued G35 and delivered effective hate at about 20 yards.

But he can't run worth shit.......

LE fitness needs to task related, IMO.

Trooper224
12-03-2015, 02:56 AM
I have a good friend exactly like you. He's another old LSP SWAT and firearms instructor retiree. RD is a big barrel chested American Indian who starved himself to make weight for the LSP Academy. He ain't a runner, but he is the last person on earth I'd want to have put their hands on me. He is also the most well-rounded shooter I've ever seen. If it goes bang, he shoots it better than most.

He responded to a disturbance call where an idiot stepped out on the porch and leveled a scoped rifle at him. R drew his issued G35 and delivered effective hate at about 20 yards.

But he can't run worth shit.......

LE fitness needs to task related, IMO.

When I was on SWAT, the first thing we'd do during training was go on a four or five mile group run. I never could understand that since the farthest we ever ran during an op was half a city block and that was exactly one time. If we were going to take down something like a marijuana grow facility, we might hump in across country for several miles, but there wasn't any running involved. However, we had several former Ranger types in charge who were hung up on the running thing.

TDA
12-03-2015, 12:20 PM
The original article goes right into telling a story about fat slackers not wanting to be fit. Have a look at this one though:

http://www.koaa.com/story/28946353/news5-investigates-12-female-officers-sue-colorado-springs-police-department

One story is literally omitting all of the relevant facts and skipping straight to the random resident's opinion on a question that's not being asked. In reality it looks like what happened is nobody thought too hard about their program or how they were going to implement it, and now they're doubling down on a stupid decision. From the article:

“My ability to do 40 push ups or sit ups in a set amount of time no way correlates my ability to talk to a 6'5” male and have to go hands on and put handcuffs on him,” Officer Rebecca Arndt said.

Arndt is on her 16th year as a patrol officer.

Her personnel file is impeccable, but because she couldn't pass the physical abilities test, also known as “PAT,” she was placed on “limited duty”.

This is going to be one of the cases law schools use in the future to illustrate a clear slam dunk labor & employment discrimination fact pattern.

Dagga Boy
12-03-2015, 01:18 PM
Most of the people who can beat down a 6' 5" male are likely the same folks who do not run like gazelles and come up as "obese" on the height/weight charts.

Like I have said before...look at a football team. In order to win, you need to have a bit of everything. I would like to see some very basic standards that are very job dependent and that stay in place from start to finish. This would include shooting and defensive tactics.

KeeFus
12-18-2015, 09:21 PM
NC's new POPAT. These are our PT instructors demonstrating the course.


http://youtu.be/XDhK_mbzEsM

Trooper224
12-18-2015, 09:36 PM
That looks very similar to a physical test we had to take years ago during our annual inservice training. Somewhere along the way we stopped.

BillB
12-19-2015, 08:51 AM
First off I would like to whine a little at the steady decline of my adopted home state of Colorado. That this is happening in the Springs is even more depressing. Apparently the rot is spreading.

I am not a cop. I am a 50 something civilian who has been into fitness for my whole life. Which does not mean I have been in great shape my whole life.
Fitness is a decision. It takes commitment. It takes the strength to skip the doughnuts and go for a run.

Can we all at least agree that (all other things being equal) a fit cop is better than a fat cop?

Because if we can get there then we can probably agree that fitness requirements for cops are not the least bit unreasonable.

And yes, there are some jobs for those that have aged/slipped but still have a lot to offer to their team.

Just like a patrol cop with a broken leg can be useful at the station, the cop that has let his/her physical standards slip can ride a desk while they get back into shape.

My darling daughter is a newly minted 2nd Lt Army nurse and while she and her buddies always lamented PT they also had no sympathy for the ones that flunked "tape" because the fitness reqt was simply one more test that you had to have the dedication to "study for"

Dagga Boy
12-20-2015, 11:11 AM
I have done a bit of thinking on this and had a bit of an epiphany. Where does the fitness breakdown REALLY begin? I started thinking about not only myself, but folks I know who are studs at the job, but have gotten fatter, non physically fit, or whatever term you want to use. There are those of us who do not enjoy the same fitness stuff as others, but can usually find something we like to do actively to stay in shape. Mine was Mountain Biking. I was a fiend for it and even though I was big, my legs were described by others at work as oak trees, and I could crush skinny guys on endurance rides....so I was 230 pounds of fit, even though I didn't run or do pull ups worth a crap, I could do other stuff at a very high level.
So what was the break down. For me and most like me, injuries. What I have concluded was it is not the injuries themselves. It is how the injuries are handled. For those who have not been through it, if you are not beloved in an agency, injuries are a VERY adversarial operation. NOTHING about the process is about getting the injured officer healthy and fit again. Everything is about money and simply getting them back to work or retired as cheaply as possible. Everything is "minimal". I look back and I see now that everything was about getting a uniform back on a hanger and not about getting a functional and fit uniform back on the hanger....until it came down to retirement level injuries, the goal was get a replacement uniform on the hanger, and screw the previous hanger occupant and your return to fitness was not even a remote thought to anyone. This includes the injured party. Personally, I was getting screwed so hard in the process, fitness and a future of fitness was not even part of the equation. Trying to learn to walk again and how to deal with a choice of a lifetime of severe pain or prescription drug addiction was what mattered. Simply....it is a cruel process. It beats you down. As my mentor Pat Rogers says, you may love the job, the job does not love you.
This thread has got me thinking. I have no delusions of my bodybuilder days, or even the Mountain biking days. What I have decided based on a couple posts above is to make a choice when I get back home to learn to ride a bike again. It is hard without being able to feel one foot. Last time I tried it also hurt in a lot of places. We ll see, but I figure there is some saying about never forgetting how to ride a bike. May as well put the garage full of awesomeness back out with the lame guy trying to ride em.
For those concerned with fitness at work and for officers, a good place to start may be to look at how your injured folks are treated by the agency and see if future goals can be fitness based rather than pure money based. It is a little hard to get excited for programs that all of a sudden want some fitness standard, but NOTHING elsewhere is done with fitness as any sort of priority.

Trooper224
12-20-2015, 11:28 AM
The last time my agency got serious about fitness, they literally copied the PFT out of the Army Ranger handbook and told us we'd have to achieve that in a year, or we'd be out of a job. Of course, they did nothing to accommodate that. You were simply expected to accomplish the goal at your own expense. Once the DOA powers that be told them they'd have to give us time on duty to work out, pay for a gym membership, or something to help enable their employees, the whole concept went out the window in a flash. Now your either fit or not, it's on you.

At fifty years old, I find I have to be much smarter in how I work out. Things that were no big whup when I was thirty, or slightly irritating when I was forty, now cause a couple of weeks of hurt. I'm currently nursing a slightly injured right shoulder because I forgot I wasn't twenty five anymore. In the moment I can still go as hard as ever in the gym and on the road, but the next morning the price tag is higher now.

BehindBlueI's
12-20-2015, 11:50 AM
Can we all at least agree that (all other things being equal) a fit cop is better than a fat cop?


What is "fit", better at what, and all things are never equal.

The devil is in the details.

HCM
12-20-2015, 01:21 PM
At fifty years old, I find I have to be much smarter in how I work out. Things that were no big whup when I was thirty, or slightly irritating when I was forty, now cause a couple of weeks of hurt. I'm currently nursing a slightly injured right shoulder because I forgot I wasn't twenty five anymore. In the moment I can still go as hard as ever in the gym and on the road, but the next morning the price tag is higher now.

This ^^^^^^^

runcible
12-20-2015, 02:34 PM
The frequency with which supervisory ranks abstain from the very physical fitness policies that they put into place undermines the credibility of such; it leaves even the well-intended policies subject to questioning and being considered askance.

LSP552
12-20-2015, 08:41 PM
At fifty years old, I find I have to be much smarter in how I work out. Things that were no big whup when I was thirty, or slightly irritating when I was forty, now cause a couple of weeks of hurt. I'm currently nursing a slightly injured right shoulder because I forgot I wasn't twenty five anymore. In the moment I can still go as hard as ever in the gym and on the road, but the next morning the price tag is higher now.

I hate to say this, but it's worse at 60....

jnc36rcpd
12-20-2015, 10:42 PM
Dammit! I was hoping sixty would be the magical age because fifty-seven really sucks.

Trooper224
12-20-2015, 11:12 PM
I hate to say this, but it's worse at 60....

Thanks for bursting my bubble, party pooper.

psalms144.1
12-21-2015, 11:01 AM
BillB - while "thin" and "fit" are "better" than "fat" and "out of shape," there is NO definition of those terms that will universally apply - hence the idiocy of structured fitness tests.

I was a STUD in the Army - a 215#, low body-fat, 40+ miles/week running, 120+ pushups in 2-minutes, 25 pull ups (no kip) with a 30+ pound weight vest, 20+ mile ruck march-crushing STUD. Until I hit 30. At which point the connective tissues in both of my heels started to detach from the bone in my feet - because I was 215# and still ran 40+ miles/week (because running is what makes you "fit" in the Army). At 40, after bilateral surgery on both heels and inserts in every pair of shoes I wear, my left shoulder blew out doing my "normal" workout. At 45, my right shoulder went. At 50, and close to 250# from six years of 18+ hour days on the road doing protection work, eating whatever I could shove down my throat on the rare occasions my Boss was in a secure location and having NO time for working out, I was diagnosed as Type II Diabetic.

Should I be put out to pasture? Since being diagnosed diabetic, I got the government $25.6 million dollars back in a single recovery, and I'm now working an organized crime money laundering/bribery case - but I still can't run 2 miles in under 14 minutes... Would I like to be 215# again, and able to run miles without tiring? Of course I would. All it would require is for me to take the very limited time I have away from my job to spend with my family, and devote it all to working out. I'm sure my teenage kids and my beautiful bride would be happy about that.

Dagga Boy
12-21-2015, 11:44 AM
Psalms, we share a lot of the same issues. Foot issues, particularly horrendous plantar fasciitis issues are a huge toll taker emotionally. Doing just about everything sucks. Went and played some sand volleyball with my best friend from high school (combined age 100), against our daughters who are both very high level players (combined age 29). I literally cannot walk today, and those first steps out of bed....like having a spike driven through the foot I can feel.
I simply hate paying in agonizing pain for everything. I ll probably take my dad's medical,advice on everything from when I was a kid playing sports...and walk it off....argh.

Trooper224
12-21-2015, 04:14 PM
Plantar fasciitis was a big problem for me until about a year ago. It got to the point where I was gimping around like a 75 year old and getting out of bed was agony. I switched from an elliptical to a rowing machine for my cardio, as well as making sure I change out my work out shoes at least every six months and it's no longer an issue.

LSP552
12-21-2015, 10:26 PM
Plantar fasciitis was a big problem for me.....It got to the point where I was gimping around like a 75 year old and getting out of bed was agony.

Same here. What really helped me was to stop going barefoot in the house. We have a lot of ceramic tile and wood floors without any cushion. My Doc advised wearing boat shoes in the house and to basically stop going barefoot. With 6 months I was pain free. The shoe inserts helped, along with cardio on an inclined treadmill instead of running, but always having some padding on my feet helped at least as much.

Dagga Boy
12-22-2015, 12:10 AM
Plantar fasciitis was a big problem for me until about a year ago. It got to the point where I was gimping around like a 75 year old and getting out of bed was agony. I switched from an elliptical to a rowing machine for my cardio, as well as making sure I change out my work out shoes at least every six months and it's no longer an issue.

Wait till you are on multiple surgeries...it is terrible.

KeeFus
01-06-2016, 07:35 PM
We took our "POPAT" today. Guess who broke their fucking ankle jumping the fence...

LSP552
01-06-2016, 08:00 PM
We took our "POPAT" today. Guess who broke their fucking ankle jumping the fence...

I hope it's not a PF member......

KeeFus
01-06-2016, 08:30 PM
I hope it's not a PF member......

Lol. Yea, unfortunately it was me. I heard some folk who out rank me (im a Sgt) saying it was a sprained ankle and to walk it off.. sorry but you cant walk that shit off. Im probably out 6-8 weeks.

LSP552
01-06-2016, 08:35 PM
Lol. Yea, unfortunately it was me. I heard some folk who out rank me (im a Sgt) saying it was a sprained ankle and to walk it off.. sorry but you cant walk that shit off. Im probably out 6-8 weeks.

Sucks KF, sorry to hear that. And it's amazing how much IQ some people loose when they get promoted.:D.

BehindBlueI's
01-06-2016, 08:51 PM
Lol. Yea, unfortunately it was me. I heard some folk who out rank me (im a Sgt) saying it was a sprained ankle and to walk it off.. sorry but you cant walk that shit off. Im probably out 6-8 weeks.

Nothing worse than getting hurt in the winter. You missed the good holidays, can't do shit around the house, etc. You going to be off or get the joys of being a desk bitch on light duty?

KeeFus
01-06-2016, 08:54 PM
Nothing worse than getting hurt in the winter. You missed the good holidays, can't do shit around the house, etc. You going to be off or get the joys of being a desk bitch on light duty?

Light duty at some point, probably in evidence room. Know more tomorrow after visiting orthopedist.

BehindBlueI's
01-06-2016, 09:06 PM
Light duty at some point, probably in evidence room. Know more tomorrow after visiting orthopedist.

That sucks. But, in the spirit of LEO brotherhood:

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/65/54/41/655441fb79d965ecbdd5f2b78692dacd.jpg

KeeFus
01-06-2016, 09:12 PM
That sucks. But, in the spirit of LEO brotherhood:

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/65/54/41/655441fb79d965ecbdd5f2b78692dacd.jpg

Thats funny as shit! Funny thing is there were about 20 of us taking it today and you know when you get a bunch of cops around all the BS and grabassing that goes on. When i jumped the fence and landed it made a loud POP! You could have heard a mouse fart after that.

Dagga Boy
01-06-2016, 09:47 PM
Having broken enough foot stuff.....I feel bad for you for real.:(

BehindBlueI's
01-06-2016, 09:55 PM
Having broken enough foot stuff.....I feel bad for you for real.:(

When I broke shit, I included my hand. No typing, no phone answering = no light duty. Of course I've got crooked fingers now...

HCM
01-06-2016, 10:56 PM
That sucks. But, in the spirit of LEO brotherhood:

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/65/54/41/655441fb79d965ecbdd5f2b78692dacd.jpg

This is important. Lets him know nothing is actually wrong.

Coyotesfan97
01-07-2016, 02:28 PM
That sucks. But, in the spirit of LEO brotherhood:

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/65/54/41/655441fb79d965ecbdd5f2b78692dacd.jpg

Have you been to K9 training? God forbid you get bit with a bunch of handlers around.

Nephrology
01-07-2016, 05:52 PM
Lol. Yea, unfortunately it was me. I heard some folk who out rank me (im a Sgt) saying it was a sprained ankle and to walk it off.. sorry but you cant walk that shit off. Im probably out 6-8 weeks.

Not sure if this is of any comfort but you can actually recover from a broken ankle more quickly than a bad sprain. Fracture draws lots of blood to the site of injury which induces healing. A bad sprain can put someone out for much longer as most of those tendons are pretty avascular.

Shoulda manned up and just walked if off ;)

KeeFus
01-07-2016, 06:24 PM
Not sure if this is of any comfort but you can actually recover from a broken ankle more quickly than a bad sprain. Fracture draws lots of blood to the site of injury which induces healing. A bad sprain can put someone out for much longer as most of those tendons are pretty avascular.

Shoulda manned up and just walked if off ;)

Walk it off...lol.

Orthopedist gave me a boot and gave me light duty. Told me to go ahead and start putting weight on it and use crutches if I was gonna attempt to walk more than a few feet. Coulda been worse according to him. Ligaments are good...just that bone...ugh.

Nephrology
01-07-2016, 06:48 PM
Walk it off...lol.

Orthopedist gave me a boot and gave me light duty. Told me to go ahead and start putting weight on it and use crutches if I was gonna attempt to walk more than a few feet. Coulda been worse according to him. Ligaments are good...just that bone...ugh.

Oh I am sure it didn't feel great. I would bet solid money that it wasn't the best day of your life, either. but you'll recover. Definitely try to get it moving again as soon as you are comfortable - motion is lotion and all. Just don't jump over any walls any time soon.

John Hearne
01-07-2016, 08:21 PM
I've got two on-the-job injuries to one of my ankles, to the point that the injured foot is "pigeon toed" out. Both docs said I'd have been much better off to have broken it. So far, I don't have any regular issues out of it unless I work it super hard - like sprinting one lap then walking one lap on a track to improve your 1.5 mile run time - don't ask me how I know....

BaiHu
01-07-2016, 10:34 PM
Not sure if this is of any comfort but you can actually recover from a broken ankle more quickly than a bad sprain. Fracture draws lots of blood to the site of injury which induces healing. A bad sprain can put someone out for much longer as most of those tendons are pretty avascular.

Shoulda manned up and just walked if off ;)
I'm living proof on that. I popped the ligaments on my right ankle in '93 playing pick up basketball and I wore a boot for a few weeks, but the strength and full recovery took almost a year.

To this day I still have stretched ligaments/slipping peroneal tendon snapping whenever I point my foot for the first few times even if it's just between minutes of inactivity.

Poconnor
01-08-2016, 09:26 AM
Too many members experiences and injuries here mirror mine. I was always on the big side. Strong in the walk all day carrying heavy loads way. But it didn't start getting bad until I got plantar fasciitis. I still remember the first time I woke up and it was like a spike in my heel. Couldn't run, walk as little as possible. More injuries on top of more injuries. I remember joking with friends; I don't feel broken, I just feel like I'm being chipped away. Every time I healed I just ended up a little bit less capable than before and a little fatter. That young bull/ old bull joke was me. Then I was reared ended at work and that was it. A very nice marked expedition was totaled and my career was over at nineteen and half years. I miss the job and I often think if I had worked out smarter, i.e. Knew then what I know know I could have avoided a lot of pain over the years. I see both sides of this issue now. Most cops I know retire with ongoing injuries. Young guys don't understand. They don't know what they don't know. Same with doctors. The older I get the more sense it makes to seek out older Orthopaedic docs that are athletes. One of my docs just shrugged and stated you led a vigorous life when I asked him why I wasn't heeling and why it hurt all the time. I keep telling myself it could be worse

Dagga Boy
01-08-2016, 11:48 AM
Too many members experiences and injuries here mirror mine. I was always on the big side. Strong in the walk all day carrying heavy loads way. But it didn't start getting bad until I got plantar fasciitis. I still remember the first time I woke up and it was like a spike in my heel. Couldn't run, walk as little as possible. More injuries on top of more injuries. I remember joking with friends; I don't feel broken, I just feel like I'm being chipped away. Every time I healed I just ended up a little bit less capable than before and a little fatter. That young bull/ old bull joke was me. Then I was reared ended at work and that was it. A very nice marked expedition was totaled and my career was over at nineteen and half years. I miss the job and I often think if I had worked out smarter, i.e. Knew then what I know know I could have avoided a lot of pain over the years. I see both sides of this issue now. Most cops I know retire with ongoing injuries. Young guys don't understand. They don't know what they don't know. Same with doctors. The older I get the more sense it makes to seek out older Orthopaedic docs that are athletes. One of my docs just shrugged and stated you led a vigorous life when I asked him why I wasn't heeling and why it hurt all the time. I keep telling myself it could be worse

Wish I could triple like this, as it is almost a mirror. The doctor issue is huge. People forget, you know what kind of medical care officers get when injured? You enter a horrific world of adversarial medicine that is more like voodoo medicine in which doctors are consulting with risk managers and insurance people for treatment in which full recovery is not the goal. To give a nice example, on my last big injury that was the career ender, I was transported in uniform from the scene to an emergency room (the crook went right to the trauma center and ICU..so its still a win, just an ugly one). The next day when I went to the doctor for follow up and a treatment plan. I was refused treatment because "I was not injured on duty". I had to be treated on my own insurance as "A victim of a violent crime". This is the world of street cops getting injured.

BaiHu
01-08-2016, 11:55 AM
Wish I could triple like this, as it is almost a mirror. The doctor issue is huge. People forget, you know what kind of medical care officers get when injured? You enter a horrific world of adversarial medicine that is more like voodoo medicine in which doctors are consulting with risk managers and insurance people for treatment in which full recovery is not the goal. To give a nice example, on my last big injury that was the career ender, I was transported in uniform from the scene to an emergency room (the crook went right to the trauma center and ICU..so its still a win, just an ugly one). The next day when I went to the doctor for follow up and a treatment plan. I was refused treatment because "I was not injured on duty". I had to be treated on my own insurance as "A victim of a violent crime". This is the world of street cops getting injured.
As a taxpayer, citizen and human being, this saddens me. Strike that, it pisses me off. Sadder still is my vote barely changes the political mentality these days let alone changing the political mentality enough to have brass change their mentality for the sake of their troopers.

Dagga Boy
01-08-2016, 02:14 PM
As a taxpayer, citizen and human being, this saddens me. Strike that, it pisses me off. Sadder still is my vote barely changes the political mentality these days let alone changing the political mentality enough to have brass change their mentality for the sake of their troopers.

They blame you for why they do it. Trying to save "taxpayer" money.

Nephrology
01-09-2016, 09:44 AM
Wish I could triple like this, as it is almost a mirror. The doctor issue is huge. People forget, you know what kind of medical care officers get when injured? You enter a horrific world of adversarial medicine that is more like voodoo medicine in which doctors are consulting with risk managers and insurance people for treatment in which full recovery is not the goal. To give a nice example, on my last big injury that was the career ender, I was transported in uniform from the scene to an emergency room (the crook went right to the trauma center and ICU..so its still a win, just an ugly one). The next day when I went to the doctor for follow up and a treatment plan. I was refused treatment because "I was not injured on duty". I had to be treated on my own insurance as "A victim of a violent crime". This is the world of street cops getting injured.

Why wouldn't they consider you as being injured on duty?

Generally speaking, my experience has shown me that the medical insurance industry is the most awful, convoluted, predatory institution in this country. Nuf said.

One more note - I do think it is important that people with chronic illness/injury not view their infirmity as a moral failing somehow. It is common in this nation's culture to view disease and disability as somehow the result of moral inferiority or the consequence of poor decision making, and that if they would only "fight harder" they would somehow leap out of bed into a miraculous recovery.

This is rarely, if ever, true. People who get really sick will usually stay really sick, and their condition only improves by degrees. For someone who is seriously injured, it is really hard to fully recover to peak condition, and it is not for a lack of willpower. Even sadder are patients with serious/terminal conditions (i.e. cancer) whose family/friends urge them to 'keep fighting' so they can 'beat it.' Sadly, neoplasia doesn't consult the patient's determination when it decides to metastasize to the lungs, liver, spine or gut. This happens to the elderly, to the middle aged, to the terribly young, and it has no consideration for whether or not they are committed to 'the fight.' That is not to say that people should give up and roll over, but that they shouldn't expect to magically get better just because they are determined to do so.

Disease is not a war. It is a cross to bear. The cross never gets lighter, one just adjusts to the burden. I believe this to be the healthier mentality - taking a chronic illness one day at a time, and neither capitulating to its weight nor cursing yourself for not being able to sprint at full speed with it on your back. Hopefully this is helpful to some of the people here.

BehindBlueI's
01-09-2016, 11:48 AM
As a taxpayer, citizen and human being, this saddens me. Strike that, it pisses me off. Sadder still is my vote barely changes the political mentality these days let alone changing the political mentality enough to have brass change their mentality for the sake of their troopers.

Our medical care locally is on par with any other worker's comp medical claim (meh) because it is everyone else's worker's comp medical claim. Doctors who can't be bothered to put your finger back on straight before setting the hardware, etc.

Where we REALLY get dicked is if you go out on disability. They'll fight tooth and nail to fuck you like a house cat in nearly every instance. Get shot in the head? Have difficulty talking and have severely limited mobility? Might as well start your appeal and get ready to sue as you file your initial claim.

http://www.in.gov/judiciary/opinions/pdf/02041401ebb.pdf

voodoo_man
01-09-2016, 12:06 PM
Injury stories? I've got so many...

I was in a foot pursuit with a guy wanted for homicide (open body warrant) through a heavy business district (saw him riding a bicycle on a sidewalk). Ended up rolling my ankle off uneven pavement. I planted my foot and moved to turn a different direction, my ankle bone actually hit the ground while my heel was planted against the ground. Yeah, ouch. My partner caught him, down the block, we both ended up in different hospitals.

I was told by the ER doc there was no break, which he told me is bad for me because if there was a break they would do surgery and I'd be good to go in two or so months, but since I had the worst type of contusion I couldn't have surgery and need to do PT for months on end.

Anyone that has been injured on the job knows how fucking annoying it is. First I was told to go on limited duty, mind you I couldn't walk without support and I couldn't drive. The city doc didn't much care, so I told him to go sit on a cactus and went off full duty after I called my FOP rep.

7 months I was off, first 3 I couldn't walk without support, then I didn't get better because they told me I had to show up for every court listing. By the way I was working narc. at that time, so I had court literally every single day for months on end, guess how I got to court? I had to walk. Yeah, ain't healin when I have to "rest and elevate daily" but I also have to go to court every day. I had to threaten to sue the doctor to get him to write me off from court. A good round of steroids (prescribed) and its been a few years now. I still feel it every now and then, especially fighting a few times a week.

John Hearne
01-09-2016, 01:27 PM
My wife was injured during poorly conducted PT at the police academy. She ended up with a labral tear in her hip that precluded her return to law enforcement and has lasting consequences to this day. The wonderful, highly competent worker's comp doctor signed a letter that OK'ed her return to work with an injury that actually required surgical intervention to correct. We had to go to a competent doctor, pay for an MRI out of pocket, and then get a lawyer to have her hip fixed.

My ankle got REALLY messed up on the second injury. I had a mild injury at the end of a longer run on a irregular surface. I immediately went to the clinic. I told everyone I talked to - the receptionist, the nurse who screened me, and the PA/Doc who saw me - that I had a prior history of injury to the same ankle that had required extensive physical therapy to repair. They gave me some 800mg Ibuprofen. This occurred on a Saturday and I specifically asked if I should run on Monday. They said "don't worry." I ran on Monday, it was the last time I ran for two years afterwards.

Let's just say that employees in the public sector don't get the best care. You'd almost think we were expendable cogs in a machine.

Dagga Boy
01-09-2016, 02:46 PM
A little known fact is that at many contract clinics where first responders are treated, their x Ray equipment cannot see broken bones and every injury is a "minor sprain". Diagnoses is limited to the extent of injury being a 1 ibuprofen or 2 ibuprofen level, and you can always go back to work in a day or two (relative to the number of ibuprofen). A two day, two Ibuprofen injury can be translated to some serious surgery and likely something you will never recover from.

There are no smilies with this post for a reason...it is a very serious post.

BehindBlueI's
01-09-2016, 06:40 PM
Diagnoses is limited to the extent of injury being a 1 ibuprofen or 2 ibuprofen level, and you can always go back to work in a day or two (relative to the number of ibuprofen). A two day, two Ibuprofen injury can be translated to some serious surgery and likely something you will never recover from.

They must get their equipment and personnel from the military and/or VA.

Dagga Boy
01-09-2016, 06:48 PM
They must get their equipment and personnel from the military and/or VA.

Which is equally sad.

Nephrology
01-09-2016, 11:45 PM
A little known fact is that at many contract clinics where first responders are treated, their x Ray equipment cannot see broken bones and every injury is a "minor sprain". Diagnoses is limited to the extent of injury being a 1 ibuprofen or 2 ibuprofen level, and you can always go back to work in a day or two (relative to the number of ibuprofen). A two day, two Ibuprofen injury can be translated to some serious surgery and likely something you will never recover from.

There are no smilies with this post for a reason...it is a very serious post.

Well, to be fair, some small/subtle fractures won't be visible on films at all, no matter the machine, though a higher quality/higher resolution film is always more helpful. Also, if something is very fractured, you should be able to see it easily on any X-ray machine, even one from a century ago. Non-union or comminuted fractures will be super obvious.

I am training in a "county" (actually, city, but we are "county" in spirit) hospital and we are the safety net system for the lower income and also the biggest/busiest level 1 trauma center in the state. Pretty much anytime a cop gets shot in our city, they come to us. We don't always have the best equipment, and it's not always in the best condition, but if I got shot there is no other ER I would rather be. The dedication and skill of our docs, nurses and techs is second to none, and they do far more with far less than anyone in the state. All this to say that at the end of the day it's down to the provider, not their equipment. Indian and arrow applies here too.

Dagga Boy
01-10-2016, 12:09 AM
I went back a couple times and told the staff "this really feels broken"....nope just a sprain. Finally went to my own podiatrists who was seething when he put the X-Ray up and said "see this gigantic black thing, that is what broken looks like". The entire top of my foot was stress fractured. Now we could see missing the two additional big cracks on the ankle itself, but when I saw the x-Ray, I was pissed as this was obvious. I figured out later why this happens. When you go to get a medical evaluation for the state to arbitrate a disputed finding.....guess which medical records the city sends? If you guess the "just a sprain" records, you would be right. Then a gigantic fight again because that crook (I worked a ton of insurance fraud...the guy they sent me to was on the other side when the pendulum was on that side, he was the type we prosecuted) then ruled they I was "too injured to return to work, but the injury was not work related because the injury was so extensive it could not have been from a sprain". And people wonder why I am so filled with hatred.