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View Full Version : What happened to quillions?



314159
11-12-2015, 04:15 PM
I'm not much of a knife guy so maybe I should call them hand guards? Anyway, looking at bayonets and Kabars of the old school, they all have a large and functional cross piece to keep your hand and sliceable fingers from slipping forward. It seems to me very few knives, even so called tactical blades, have what appears to be useful versions of these anymore.
What am I missing? Could it be the good stuff still has them and the others are mere posers or has the style of usage/tactics changed to reduce the need for such. I'm certain it is much easier and cheaper to leave them off the design. Is this a hot topic in the knife world I know nothing about?

Wondering Beard
11-12-2015, 05:06 PM
I have no idea whether it's a hot topic or not.

The thing about those old school guards is that they are big and make the knife harder to carry, never mind conceal.

It is a good thing to not ride up your own blade when, for example, stabbing into something, however, for defensive purposes, they don't need to be that big, nor do they need to be on both sides of the blade. A mix of ergonomical handles and minimal form of guard can be amply sufficient, depending of course on your own hand size.

I own a model of each of the three pictured Joe Watson knive as well the Emerson CQC 13. I have XL hands and have stabbed each pretty hard, in forward grip, onto wood.

http://images.ttcdn.co/media/i/product/91980-a1efcb6c5fdd4be09aa0a9f9bc3c61f3.mpo?size=2000
The Watson mini Bowie caused no problems for me.



http://images.ttcdn.co/media/i/product/91980-fb834aecb1ec410e9955bd46e6b3b764.jpeg?size=2000
The Compact HiTS felt even better.


http://images.ttcdn.co/media/i/product/91980-0428c52e0b8b4c9497d50a274342061b.jpeg?size=2000
The Magni, however, felt less secure.



http://ek-prod.emersonknivesinc.netdna-cdn.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/04/cqc13bt.jpg
Not much of a guard there at all, but the finger groove and shape of the handle does a great job in keeping my hand locked solid to the knife handle.





I believe there should a decent guard on a knife without compromising the clean minimalist lines, but what that will be will depend on the user. Also, if your primary use is in reverse grip, a guard isn't much of concern at all if you place your thumb at the top of the handle (double guards can actually impede a proper reverse grip).

pablo
11-12-2015, 06:47 PM
Guns happened. Stabbing through armor and chain mail wasn't really needed anymore. Dueling type sword and knife fighting largely went away. Better weapons were developed and knives transitioned to more utilitarian tools .

314159
11-18-2015, 07:38 AM
Once again, I am no martial artist. The blades illustrated by Beard are exactly the sort that make me wonder. It seems to me, that a awkwardly, hurriedly, wetly gripped knife of these designs might be very unforgiving during a stab motion. If Beard says no problem stabbing into wood I feel obligated into believing him, any other opinions out there?
On the subject of art and general purpose tool the slicker designs obviously have a case. I was just wondering on the subject as a mass issue piece for soldiers for use as a tool and a weapon.

1slow
11-18-2015, 10:50 AM
I've done stab tests into wood and into 1/2''+ wall thickness 10'' diameter hard cardboard tubes. Texture and shape of the handle and guard assist keeping your hand off of the blade during stabs.

A rough texture helps grip but requires grip firmness to create enough friction to keep hand off of the blade. This roughness is great in a grab and go emergency tool but wearing on a utility knife to be used all day.
Shape of handle and or guards can keep the hand off of the blade with less grip pressure than required by texture alone. Examples of this are guards on bowies and medieval daggers and handle shape on chooras, jambiyas.
A chefs knife is a common example of shape keeping the hand off of the blade in a stab.

In compact knives, Clinch Pics, Strider DB,SA and Watson's HiTS have both texture and a pronounced change in width between the handle nearest the blade and the back of the blade to keep your hand off of the blade.

Some thoughts:
You may hit a hard object on the way to the target, pistol knife ,gear etc..., your grip may be weakened by blood loss, graying out from impact, cold, fatigue. Having both shape and texture assure your grip should help.
Very large pronounced guards and shapes make a knife harder to hide and to make.
A knife that can be used forward or reverse grip, edge in or out is versatile.
Being able to tell how the knife is positioned and oriented by feel in the hand, in a hurry is helpful.

1slow
11-18-2015, 10:55 AM
Maybe Tinker Pearce will weigh in on this. He is an expert sword and knife maker and very knowledgeable in their use.

314159
11-18-2015, 11:53 AM
1slow, you express my thoughts precisely. Compact blades are a compromise to begin with, so the lack of guards is just one more, no biggie. In the realm of tactical/military belt knives I hope the lack of guards isn't just a function of cost and/or fashion. I wonder though.

Hambo
11-19-2015, 10:19 AM
I'm not sure what you mean by small blades, but you don't need a bowie to kill somebody. I've seen it done very effectively with 3-4" lockblades with no guard. On the other hand, I would say that making a flat one piece blade/tang knife with paracord has to be easier than making a Randall Model 1 or similar. I wouldn't say fashion is dictating the knives pictured above, it's the intended use that drives the style. These days you don't find much about parrying an opponent's blade with yours or your hand guard.

314159
11-19-2015, 11:10 AM
As big a fan as I am of swashbuckling rapscallions, I probably shouldn't have used the term quillions. Technically correct as it may be, hand guards are what I mean. My only real concern is not slicing the user's hand up during ANY vigorous usage of the blade. A stabbing motion certainly being one of the more obvious, but not only, dangers.

drummer
11-29-2015, 10:20 AM
You are referring to guards. Quillions are cross guards and are only used on reproduction daggers and rapiers and the occasional fighting bowie (James Keating's Crossada is a prime example of quillions).

Guards havent't gone anywhere. More traditional designs such as bowies and daggers still have them. The truth is that the simple full tang knives which are popular nowdays are easier and faster to manufacture than manufacturing a knife with a guard. Especially if you don't use a mill to set the shoulders. Getting a good, tight fit with stainless steel takes practice and patience.

The other thing is in our current society, much like handgun carry, we want our knives compact and comfortable. Therefore, when fixed blades are carried, they should be lacking in protuberances that irritate us, such as a guard. The other consideration is that the double guard can hamper utility. Therefore, most knives are designed more for EDC utility than sticking and stabbing living creatures.

secondstoryguy
11-29-2015, 10:59 AM
Guards were traditionally designed to keep an oponents blade off your hand, not to prevent your hand from sliding up onto the edge. There are many examples of smaller knives from around the world that do not have them. The Roman Gladius and the smaller Japanese daggers being two that I can think of off the top of my head. In more recent martial history the Finnish made short work of many Nazis in WWII with their guardless Puukos.

voodoo_man
11-29-2015, 11:49 AM
Only reason for a blade to have a guard, in a modern-day tactical/sexy type blade manifestation, is to stop the hand from riding forward onto the blade and self-inflicting.

Drang
11-29-2015, 03:20 PM
In more recent martial history the Finnish made short work of many Commies in WWII with their guardless Puukos.

FIFY. Finns were enemies of the Russians in WWII, ergo, more-or-less allies of the Nazis. /HistoryGeekDigression

314159
11-29-2015, 09:42 PM
Many of the replies revolve around how constructing a knife with a guard is hard to do. No one offered a convincing case that they aren't really needed anymore to protect your own little digits. Assuming a largish belt knife (which I should have better specified, as opposed to art pieces, EDC or compacts) difficulty alone is not a good reason to leave them off.
So, a lot of the tacti-cool and often expensive "fighters" are indeed posers. Bummer.

FLC Knives
11-30-2015, 07:13 PM
I thought it was because blade on blade combat has lost it popularity.
Generally theres an evolution that closely follows the form follows function thought process.
I dont plan to duel with anyone so I dont choose a blade with a large guard.
Just enough of to separate my fingers from the edge is my preference.

SLG
11-30-2015, 10:26 PM
I'm a big fan of proper guards. Quillions, not so much.

However, and as others have pointed out, it really depends on what compromises the knife is built around. All knives have compromises, so pick what matters to you and drive on. For a full size belt knife, I really like Cold Steel trailmaster bowies. For more specific dueling purposes, I like the Bagwell's, though I currently only have the commercial versions. For CCW, a Clinch Pick or Pikal gets the nod. For field use, a Puuko style is more often what i'll pick. All can be used as fighters. Some are designed for it, others are not. Some are designed for CCW, others are for open combat. An open combat knife without a proper guard is pretty stupid. A CCW knife that you can't conceal is also pretty stupid.

1slow
11-30-2015, 10:59 PM
I'm a big fan of proper guards. Quillions, not so much.

However, and as others have pointed out, it really depends on what compromises the knife is built around. All knives have compromises, so pick what matters to you and drive on. For a full size belt knife, I really like Cold Steel trailmaster bowies. For more specific dueling purposes, I like the Bagwell's, though I currently only have the commercial versions. For CCW, a Clinch Pick or Pikal gets the nod. For field use, a Puuko style is more often what i'll pick. All can be used as fighters. Some are designed for it, others are not. Some are designed for CCW, others are for open combat. An open combat knife without a proper guard is pretty stupid. A CCW knife that you can't conceal is also pretty stupid.

Good summary.

314159
12-01-2015, 06:15 AM
Yup, my initial definitions sucked and SLG said it best.

SLG
12-01-2015, 12:09 PM
I really appreciate that you guys got what I was saying, cause that has to be to be of the worst paragraphs I've ever penned. Reads very awkwardly to me, and doesnt convey everything I wanted it to. One of thethings I wanted to convey was that while smaller knives with less substantial guards are almost always "inferior" in use to a bigger, more full featured knife, how you use the knife matters, and the techniques we might use with a Bagwell or Mad Dog, are not going to be the same as with an Emerson folder, let alone a pikal or CP. By choosing the correct employment for the blade, you can mitigate many of the shortcomings and , maximize its strengths.