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StraitR
11-10-2015, 04:24 PM
A search of PF turned up several threads about folders and/or defensive knives, but nothing on the specific application of folders as defensive knives, and outside of a post or two in those threads, nothing with any detail.

Admittedly, I've been a knife nut since I was a child. I have more than a few blades in the safe, ranging from little gas station knives received as well intentioned gifts up to CRK Sebenza's and Busse fixed blades. That said, lately I've been pondering why, aside from simple enjoyment, I carry a large(ish) folder when 9/10 times I reach past it for the SAK Cadet at the bottom of my pocket when things need cutting. So I thought about reversing some pocket clips and and putting them on my support side for a defensive tool. Then it dawned on me, I don't know the first thing about defensive knife use aside from what my lizard brain tells me and whether or not the folding blade I EDC everyday is anything more than pocket jewelry.

Given the amount of edged weapon SME's, official and unofficial, as well as the experienced membership here on PF to leverage both knowledge and experience from, can we lay out the truth on deploying folders as defensive tools?


Here are some of the questions I've been attempting to find answers to as they pertain to a defensive pocket folder. For an EDC blade, I have my own preferences, but they may or may not apply to a defensive folder. Feel free to copy/paste as a Q&A format if you feel like tackling them.

- Are folders a feasible defensive option one can train and become proficient with, or is this just something people like to talk about online?

- If so, are there notable trainers doing classes geared specifically for folders? I really want to take EWO, bad. Ok, really bad.

- How about blade specifics for the role?
-blade styles and their pros/cons
-blade length, is there a minimum

- What about deployment methods? Auto, Assisted, Waved, Flippers, Manual? Thumb disc vs stud vs hole?

- Locking mechanisms, important? Liner, Axis, Frame lock, Compression?

- Blade steel, does it matter?

- How is a defensive folder best carried? Strong side, support side, other?

- Brand/Model preferences? Who's carrying what, where, and why?

- Do you have firsthand experience deploying a folder in a defensive role? Are you willing to share?

- Did you stay in a Holiday Inn Express last night?

OnionsAndDragons
11-10-2015, 05:23 PM
I'm not an SME. I have a bit of blade training. I do know quite a lot about knife design and materials. I'll throw what opinion/knowledge I feel comfy with backing.




- Are folders a feasible defensive option one can train and become proficient with, or is this just something people like to talk about online?

Feasible: yes. As good as a fixed blade: hells no.
Mostly people talk about it, but you can train to get a folder into play almost as fast as a fixed blade. It'll never be as reliable, though.

- How about blade specifics for the role?
-blade styles and their pros/cons
-blade length, is there a minimum

Pointy. I think the main draw to having a folder for a weapon is the ability to carry a longer blade more conveniently than the same sized fixed blade.

- What about deployment methods? Auto, Assisted, Waved, Flippers, Manual? Thumb disc vs stud vs hole?

I like waved, hole, disk in that order. Holes and disks are easier to use with gloves on than other methods. Autos, assist and flippers tend to have more parts to fail and aren't actually any faster.

- Locking mechanisms, important? Liner, Axis, Frame lock, Compression?

To a degree. A well made knife will stay locked for any reasonable task. Lockbacks are reliably the sturdiest overall. I'd say that the compression lock has a lot going for it as well. Overall this is mostly personal preference as long as you are buying above the budget level. I've seen them all fail under enough abuse, aside from the lockback. I haven't seen the lock fail in one, I have seen a knife fail around the lockback.

- Blade steel, does it matter?

If it is just for defense, not really. As long as it can take an edge, your blade shape and geometry will matter much more. There is nothing wrong with a 440 blade if it's got a good heat treatment.

- How is a defensive folder best carried? Strong side, support side, other?

I like support side if it's a secondary arm. Some can make centerline work, but I don't like it for a folder.

- Brand/Model preferences? Who's carrying what, where, and why?

I really like the waved Spydercos.






Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Wondering Beard
11-10-2015, 05:44 PM
Well, didn't you just go and pick a subject matter close to: what's the best gun for home defense? :)

I'm no expert, guru, SME or anything of that type, I'm just a guy who really likes knives and has trained to use them defensively and before my preference for fixed blades, carried folders. I'm really looking forward to what those much more experienced than I have to say.


- Are folders a feasible defensive option one can train and become proficient with, or is this just something people like to talk about online? Yes

- If so, are there notable trainers doing classes geared specifically for folders? I really want to take EWO, bad. Ok, really bad. Yes. I don't know if EWO focuses specifically on folders but what you would get out of EWO class will still be valid. A favorite of mine is John Holshen at Insights : Defensive Folding knife (http://www.insightstraining.com/view_course.asp?courseID=5) and Defensive Folding Knife II (http://www.insightstraining.com/view_course.asp?courseID=17)

- How about blade specifics for the role?
-blade styles and their pros/cons so many blade styles, so many opinions, so little time. Personally, I want it to pierce with ease and have some curvature to the edge for easy cutting. How it does it, is something that can get you the same acrimony as 9mm vs 45 ACP
-blade length, is there a minimum no, but your local laws may have a maximum

- What about deployment methods? Auto, Assisted, Waved, Flippers, Manual? Thumb disc vs stud vs hole? Again, lots of differing opinions on this. Personally, I don't think autos bring anything extra to the table and add reliability concerns. Assisted required me to rework my technique to avoid getting cut and I didn't feel there was much of a benefit. I don't really understand flippers but a lot of people like them. I like Manual, preferably with an Emerson style 'wave'; it's not 100% but if it fails I can still go back to my usual manual technique or just flick my wrist to finish the job. I don't like studs that much because they're easy to miss when deploying the knife at speed, wide discs or variations on that are better; I think holes are best but Ernie Emerson thinks discs are better so what do I know :-)

- Locking mechanisms, important? Liner, Axis, Frame lock, Compression? Only important insofar as it remains strong. All locks can and do fail and a badly executed one of whatever style is terrible. The thing that matters to me is that none of my fingers get into a position to unlock the knife while I'm rolling around with a bad guy who wants to do me in

- Blade steel, does it matter? around the net you have discussions on steels that will make our own press out vs whatever type of draw seem like a genteel discussion at a posh London club. so long as you have a quality knife maker, you will have a good, properly tempered blade; it may not be the latest hi tech steel but it will do its job

- How is a defensive folder best carried? Strong side, support side, other?Up to you; so long as it's easily accessible when you're rolling around on the ground or getting slammed against a wall, it will work. When I carried folders, I had at least two, so that either of my hands could get to a knife no matter what (doesn't just apply to fights, it can also apply to cutting rope while holding heavy furniture, or getting entangled in a boat's ropes); I still carry two but one is a fixed blade now

- Brand/Model preferences? Who's carrying what, where, and why? Reputable companies before small custom shops, in the same way we go with well known companies when purchasing ammo. I like Emersons a lot but I won't "die in the streetz if I carried a Spyderco Delica

- Do you have firsthand experience deploying a folder in a defensive role? Are you willing to share? None came to actual fights (thank God) but appearing unarmed and suddenly appearing armed helped nicely once. Southnarc has probably lots of stories

- Did you stay in a Holiday Inn Express last night? almost, but my house was closer

DI1
11-10-2015, 08:59 PM
While there is extensive information regarding your questions, the simple answer is that a fixed blade is far superior to a folder in every way other than concealment. If you can comfortably conceal a small fixed blade, you will be way better off.
If you absolutely have to carry a folder for some reason, a Spyderco Delica (waved or not) is hard to beat.

StraitR
11-10-2015, 09:44 PM
I had a blurb about not wanting to get into fixed blades vs folders in my original post, as that's not the point of my questioning, but I took it out. So, I agree, there's no debating the fact that a fixed blade is more capable and generally preferable for the role, but it's not always feasible to carry one.

So far, it seems the idea of a defensive folder has at least some merit, so thanks for the replies guys. I really hope more people join the discussion, SME or not, and that Craig and Nyeti stop by and give their suggestive input.

Wondering Beard, thanks for the info on the Holshen material, I'm definitely going to check them out.

Maple Syrup Actual
11-10-2015, 10:27 PM
- Are folders a feasible defensive option one can train and become proficient with, or is this just something people like to talk about online?

Sure,why not? You better believe if someone is beating me senseless and I can grab a rock or a sharp stick or a paint can, I'm using it. Why not a sharp piece of steel with a handle? That would be way better.


- If so, are there notable trainers doing classes geared specifically for folders? I really want to take EWO, bad. Ok, really bad.


EWO is pretty great although I don't have much to compare it to but a few FMA sessions with a friend (who is a legit instructor but still)


- How about blade specifics for the role?

I like medium-sized folders that I'm sure I can open while reeling. My rule: if I can't reliably do it while completely wasted, I probably couldn't do it while fighting off a hard bell-ring.


-blade styles and their pros/cons

As long as I can hang on to it, sharpen it, and it's pretty straight, I don't care too much. It's got to stab well.


-blade length, is there a minimum

I wouldn't go much under two inches, personally.


- What about deployment methods? Auto, Assisted, Waved, Flippers, Manual? Thumb disc vs stud vs hole?

I like waved. I don't have any experience with autos. I don't like flippers for fighting. I want to get as close as I can to my fist grip the second I grab the knife.

I prefer holes to discs and discs to studs but right now I carry a disc-wave knife and it's fine.


- Locking mechanisms, important? Liner, Axis, Frame lock, Compression?

As long as it's totally secure, even when twisting the blade, I don't care.


- Blade steel, does it matter?

No


- How is a defensive folder best carried? Strong side, support side, other?

I think that would totally depend on you...mine goes on the strong side front pocket because that's where I carry a knife and I use a knife a dozen times a day.


- Brand/Model preferences? Who's carrying what, where, and why?

I'm carrying a Kershaw Emerson because it was cheap, on sale and met my basic needs. I've also carried Spydercos a lot. I'm totally fine with delicas and enduras. I'm not picky. It's a sharp chunk of steel I'm going to ram into somebody a bunch of times if I have to. I don't like to overthink it.


- Do you have firsthand experience deploying a folder in a defensive role? Are you willing to share?

No, although I do have experience going for training versions while getting beat up in EWO etc. My advice is "carry a knife you'll use all the time" because if you draw it over and over, you'll know right where it is and how to get to it.


- Did you stay in a Holiday Inn Express last night?

No, I stay in way scummier motels than that. If it's more than $40, I feel out of place.

StraitR
11-10-2015, 10:44 PM
Great insight Misanthropist. Seems to validate a lot of my assumptions.

RJ
11-10-2015, 10:56 PM
Great thread. Following.

I carry a mini-Grip so I have a sharp pointy thing. Very interested in whether this is a good idea or not for defensive purposes over say, my mini 4 blade SAK.

Maple Syrup Actual
11-10-2015, 11:10 PM
Well, I don't know that anyone should feel good about having their beliefs validated through agreement with me, but I will say that in Canada, we don't carry guns much. I have been carrying a folding (or fixed or both) knife every day since about 1985, though, and I do tons and tons of work with knives, which is almost never opening boxes. It's way more likely to be actual knife work, in which I am trimming or shaving or slicing actual material, not just poking a hole in packing tape.

Back when I worked as a framing carpenter I could notch out 2x4s for simple scaffolding with a heavy chopping knife faster than I could consistently, safely do it with a circular saw. And I grew up with an actual crazy bushman/genuine pick-and-pan prospector for a dad, who used an axe puck worn down to a nub to keep mora knives sharp enough to do surgery with...not a joke and I say this from experience.

So I'd guess that I've got more time in on knives than most people who aren't woodworkers. They're simple machines in my opinion and short of going to a really purpose-specific item like a clinch pick (which I do also carry a lot of the time) I think a lot of the obvious stuff works really, really well.

StraitR
11-10-2015, 11:30 PM
One thing I'm trying to figure out is how to deploy a knife with the wave feature more effectively. My plight, which I notice in every video of someone demonstrating the deployment of a waved knife, is that I end up with a poor grip that needs substantial readjustment. After the knife clears the pocked, fully locked open, what I'm left with is two fingers and thumb on the knife. So, I know it's fast into action, but what am I missing when it comes to getting it out of my pocket with a usable grip?

For reference, I have three waved knives to use. Two Emersons and a Delica.

Also, lot's of people seem to like pointy, which was also referenced by Nyeti (sharpened screwdrivers) as highly effective in another thread. So, what constitutes pointy? For the sake of comparison, let's use Emerson knives, as they run the gamut on blade shapes.

Commander - not very pointy?
Gentlemen Jim and Bandito bot seem extremely pointy.
CQC-7 - pointy?
CQC-8 - pointy enough?
other examples, Emerson or otherwise?

ETA: In contrast, I have a ZT0561 that I can remove from my pocket and deploy with the flipper while getting a usable grip seemingly quicker than any of my waved knives. I see so many people endorse the wave feature that I must be going wrong somewhere.

Maple Syrup Actual
11-11-2015, 12:38 AM
Maybe you're missing something, but maybe it's just your hand mechanics.

For example, on my kershaw emerson, if I go for it in my pocket I'll lay my thumb on on the side of the grip, and the tip of my thumb is pretty much even with the end of the knife. As in my thumb is more than four inches long because I have gorilla hands. When I draw it, I have three fingers on the grip, which I guess is enough for me...I think? If I had to instantly slash something I could, but more importantly I can shift my grip pretty much instantly from the "front's got to be open folder grip" to the "monkey with a screwdriver" grip SouthNarc talks about.

But if you find you can do better with a flipper, then I don't think anyone else's preference for waved folders should hold you back for a second. If it were me, I guess I'd try to locate a trainer, make sure you're still good while some rugby union prop is slapping you around, and if so, rock on.


As far as pointy goes the Commander looks a little "pointless" to me but part of that is that I like the tip to be in line with the centre line of the handle.

But I have also just adapted totally general-purpose knives to shanking duty, so it's entirely possible that I started with the conclusion "this simple knife will work great" and then judged everything by its similarity to my initial decision.

OTOH we've been building shivs out of rock for a jillion years and they don't look like a Commander. They look like the tip of a spear because that's what a spear is. So I'd much rather have something that reminded me of a spear.

DI1
11-11-2015, 07:24 AM
OTOH we've been building shivs out of rock for a jillion years and they don't look like a Commander. They look like the tip of a spear because that's what a spear is. So I'd much rather have something that reminded me of a spear.

This is spot on! Spear points or similar designs are what works and have worked since man sharpened wood, stone, iron and steel.
Of all the Emerson knives, the CQC8 was my favorite as it works well in reverse grip. I have since sold it and moved on. A folder needs to LOCK completely open 100% of the time in order for you to use it with confidence. Most folders will not do this that is why serious users prefer fixed blade knives for any type of defensive/offensive use. A folder is ok as a utility knife.

SAWBONES
11-11-2015, 08:42 AM
While "tactical folders" continue to be marketed as though they were wonderful defensive tools, IMNSHO if you truly need an edged weapon for personal defense, you'll need it instantly in your, hand ready to go, with no lever to flip, no Spidey hole to thumb or "wave" to snag just so. Too many times, these actions simply aren't guaranteed to get the knife fully open and the blade locked.

Folders are great for all sorts of uses, but for personal protection purposes, I'll have a fixed blade.

StraitR
11-11-2015, 10:16 AM
While I appreciate the input, we're really trying to establish the merits of folding knives in a defensive role, and how that is accomplished. Everyone agrees that a fixed blade is a much better choice, and for practically everything except convenience. That said, not everyone can legally carry a fixed blade, and for those that can, carrying one may not be an option due to dress. For example, I can carry a fixed blade legally here in FL, but cannot while I'm at work in dress pants, shirt, and tie. I can, however, slip a folder down into the pocket of my dress pants or clipped to the pocket on more casual dress days.

So, it's been established that a fixed blade would inherently be better for the role, but we'll assume moving forward that's not an option.

NickA
11-11-2015, 10:27 AM
From my limited knowledge I'd agree with most of the above, not optimal, but doable. I've seen personally, and heard other reports of, people successfully using folders in ECQC evos. Mostly waved Spydercos.
As far as specific training, other than the Insights course Michael de Bethencourt is the only one I'm aware of:

http://snubtraining.com/essentials-of-the-defensive-folding-knife/

No personal experience with him though; I planned to take this a few years ago but it was cancelled at the last minute.

Default.mp3
11-11-2015, 11:03 AM
One thing I'm trying to figure out is how to deploy a knife with the wave feature more effectively. My plight, which I notice in every video of someone demonstrating the deployment of a waved knife, is that I end up with a poor grip that needs substantial readjustment. After the knife clears the pocked, fully locked open, what I'm left with is two fingers and thumb on the knife. So, I know it's fast into action, but what am I missing when it comes to getting it out of my pocket with a usable grip?Consider drawing into a reverse grip, edge out, which is to say, have the wave catch the front edge of your pocket rather than the back edge, with the pocket clip mounted for "left side" carry, but carried in the right pocket (or the inverse); I have found that to be a bit faster in getting a waved blade into play with a proper grip, while also avoiding the pitfall of having the blade deploy so far back. Only downside is that comfort can be lessened.

DI1
11-11-2015, 11:03 AM
If you can legally carry a fixed blade in Florida, then I would slip a small fixed blade into your pocket like a Gerber Guardian ( inexpensive) or Strider SLCC ( expensive). You can use the pocket shield from Raven Concealment to make sure the knife does not shift while in pocket. Look at some options from Bladerigs.com
I personally dislike having a clip of a knife showing as that is a giveaway that you are armed and are most likely carrying something else as well.

okie john
11-11-2015, 12:32 PM
My rule: if I can't reliably do it while completely wasted, I probably couldn't do it while fighting off a hard bell-ring.

Damned good standard, and sig line material.


Okie John

Maple Syrup Actual
11-11-2015, 12:45 PM
If you're prepared to train that draw and commit to that specific knife I think it's the best defensive folder going.

I found that I did not personally put the time in to be happy with my performance with it, simply because I do use my knife a lot and drawing it every time into a fighting position was both inconvenient and made me seem crazy.

But for people who are going to make a folder a major part of their fighting gear, this is totally the best way to do it. I am 100% cognizant of the fact that my "just treat it like a knife" approach means my drawstroke is a little slower and more easily fouled. But for someone who isn't going to train a particular defensive folder draw, I think it makes sense to train badly anyway.

For example, I don't think there's a highjumper in the world that doesn't train the fosbury flop, and if you're a highjumper and you're training to clear a bar, you better be training that way.

If you're some guy who has to hop over a four foot fence at work a few times a day, you probably aren't going to commit that level of training and you might be better served by some simpler, worse, technique.

But I have also found when grappling that it's unusual that I can't get my strong side hip cocked back and freed up enough to get to a pocket and my hand free enough to draw. The people that can stop me are the Southnarcs of the world, who can probably go back and retroactively kick my ass before I got out of bed in the morning. They're the fosbury people and I know they're better than me, and I guess I just go through life hoping that somebody set the bar pretty low for me, so I can clear it.

Hatchetman
11-11-2015, 12:47 PM
Various thoughts:

Check your local laws re blade length. In my area it's three inches (not really, but that's what a lot of cops think), so that's the size of my folders.

Deployment methods. More is better, IMO. I've carried a folder of various types for 40+ years and have found it's good to know multiple ways to deploy a folder. I've hung on muddy ropes and had to deploy a folder one handed to cut material out of a rappel device a caving partner had jammed up, opened 'em under water, with my hand covered in animal fat, and so on. Different methods work for different needs; Greg Ellifritz has a good class that teaches these. Some of my favorites are:

Pinch and throw.

Thumb stud.

Stud a little and then wrist flick out.

Inertia, throw blade down, rotate 90 and flick out.

You can also:

Use two hands.

Use a Wave.

Use an auto.

I'm not a fan of Waves and autos. I think knives are weapons of stealth, weapons best deployed in advance of need that an opponent doesn't know about until tender parts start getting aerated. The gross motion required to deploy a Wave, and the noise both Waves and autos make when deploying gum up stealth. IMO if trouble is coming a blade should be quietly deployed and palmed in reverse grip with blade forward so it can be instantly put into use should you need to defend your life with it. As I see it, too much knife training occurs in what I call a West Side Story context: two opponents square off, whip out their autos, glare at each other mano a mano, and then proceed with the Dance of Death or whatnot. That's silly. I think you are far better off learning how to subtly open you knife in advance of need, hold it stealthily, and then employ it unceremoniously.

Full disclosure: I used training folders (non-waved) in ECQC. I had no problem deploying them under pressure as described above. I was critiqued, however, for going too stabby too fast, which I think was in part due to having a blade in hand in advance of contact and the adrenalized situations we were put in. With that said I've been told by many that I'd have trouble deploying a non-waved folder under stress. That proved not to be the case from guard and in other entangled positions.

Training. Formal training doesn't hurt for the most part--though there is a lot of stupid stuff being taught. My advice is to instead buy a folder that suits you, and then use it as your dinner/paring/whittling/whatever blade. Get as many reps in a day as you can deploying it and using it so that having that knife appear in your hand becomes second nature. I was a chef for 20 years and so had an excuse to have a paring sized blade appear in my hand several dozen times a day. All those reps under all sorts of circumstances have served me well.

I've been blown feces for saying this before, but I think there is a lot of value in purchasing cheaper knives to train with and beat to death. Too many times I've seen people pick up $300 pocket queens that they don't want to use as described above. There is no point in buying a carry blade you won't use for any need that arises, and if your variable blade geometry Damascus fossilized aardvark handled folder is too pretty to use hard, then I say don't use it as a primary carry blade.

My favorite knife to recommend to people is a CRKT Ryan model 7. Yes, I know, it's not the sexiest, the best steel, the coolest locking mechanism, or whatever, but they can be had for under 30 bucks, work pretty darn well, lend themselves to a variety of opening and carry methods, are fairly robust (I can make one fail the spine test), and make for a good utility blade.

What I really like about them, however, is that there is a trainer out there that darn near well replicates the Ryan 7s ergonomics. I've seen it at Asian World of Martial Arts and other places. I think it's difficult to overstate the importance of training with a drone with the same mechanics as your carry knife as the drone allows you to pressure test your assumptions. Indeed, I have my students carry a drone during class. If they are involved in a drill, get in over their heads, they are welcome to cut their way out of it with the drone. If you are not deploying and employing your carry knife (drone) under pressure it's all to easy to fall into West Side Story skippy whipping.

Note: the Ryan 7 drones have hardware that works its way loose with use. I Locktite mine.

Favorite drill. I walk a lot between buildings in outside areas. As I do so I encounter various bits of vegetation encroaching on sidewalks. When this happens I use my carry folder to do some trimming. The rules are: I must deploy, cut, and repocket the blade in a smooth motion; I can't break stride or telegraph intent; nobody can see me do it. This drill forces all sorts of things: accuracy on the move, smooth deployment mechanics, situational awareness, and so on. It focusses more on slashing, which is a downside--most effective knife offense comes off penetrating wounds--but you can shadow a couple stabs before repocketing to get those reps in.

Knife use and evaluation strategy. I buy and play with a lot of knives. I usually carry a right and left side folder either in the pocket or AIWB depending on dress and circumstance. I'm a righty so the right side blade is my utility/go to blade, usually a Ryan 7. My left side blade is whatever I'm currently evaluating. Left side blade is kept pristine and used for fine cutting chores. Right side is the beater. When the right side sees too much milage it goes into the retirement drawer (from which my kids, students, Scouts, whomever I work with get their first blade). If I like the left pocket blade, it gets moved to the right one, and the process begins again.

Dark alley habits. If I'm out and about and see something I don't like left side folder gets quietly opened and palmed, leaving the right to access my firearm. Haven't had it happen, but if an entanglement were to occur the folder would be used to make space before the gun appeared. If a two handed grip is indicated the folder would be chucked in advance.

Cecil Burch
11-11-2015, 01:23 PM
Chris Fry of MDTS Training has built awesome coursework for this very situation. He has both a two or four hour short block that he teaches at various Tac Cons (he just did it most recently at PeP3, and will very probably be doing it at Rangemaster next year). He also does it as a full day course as well, I know he was teaching it at Triple Aught Design in San Fran a few weeks ago, and regularly runs it in the NE US. I am trying to figure out how to get him out to AZ to do it as well soon.

I think his general take on folders and how to use them, but more importantly, how to TRAIN them, is as good as it gets. Hopefully soon, he will commit some of it to DVD. If you go to his website, he has a number of articles on this subject, as well as reviews of various folders.

http://www.mdtstraining.com/

breakingtime91
11-11-2015, 01:36 PM
The only folding knife I carry for "defensive" purposes is the Spyderco P'Kal (http://www.amazon.com/Spyderco-PKal-Folding-Plain-Knife/dp/B001OA231Y/), and then only when I'm someplace where a concealed fixed blade is a felony.

SouthNarc has a couple of good videos on YouTube that demonstrate how to use it's wave feature to deploy it into a RGEI orientation:


http://youtu.be/e-p4YmUJ4PA


http://youtu.be/6Sk7B-XXCJY

It's a really good idea to practice your draw/deployment with a P'Kal trainer (http://www.amazon.com/Spyderco-PKal-G-10-Trainer-Red/dp/B003784V8O/) a LOT before dicking around too much with the live blade.

tom, the videos are not working.

Wondering Beard
11-11-2015, 01:36 PM
The only folding knife I carry for "defensive" purposes is the Spyderco P'Kal (http://www.amazon.com/Spyderco-PKal-Folding-Plain-Knife/dp/B001OA231Y/), and then only when I'm someplace where a concealed fixed blade is a felony.

SouthNarc has a couple of good videos on YouTube that demonstrate how to use it's wave feature to deploy it into a RGEI orientation:


http://youtu.be/e-p4YmUJ4PA


http://youtu.be/6Sk7B-XXCJY

It's a really good idea to practice your draw/deployment with a P'Kal trainer (http://www.amazon.com/Spyderco-PKal-G-10-Trainer-Red/dp/B003784V8O/) a LOT before dicking around too much with the live blade.

Excellent stuff, however, it doesn't work that well if the waved knife has a disc instead of a hole, as the disc tends to get caught in that part of the pocket and you can miss the wave, resulting in you grabbing an unopened knife. A waved knife with a disc opener is best use IMO in the back of the pocket and deployed with a forward grip.

Wondering Beard
11-11-2015, 01:55 PM
One thing I'm trying to figure out is how to deploy a knife with the wave feature more effectively. My plight, which I notice in every video of someone demonstrating the deployment of a waved knife, is that I end up with a poor grip that needs substantial readjustment. After the knife clears the pocked, fully locked open, what I'm left with is two fingers and thumb on the knife. So, I know it's fast into action, but what am I missing when it comes to getting it out of my pocket with a usable grip?

For reference, I have three waved knives to use. Two Emersons and a Delica.

Also, lot's of people seem to like pointy, which was also referenced by Nyeti (sharpened screwdrivers) as highly effective in another thread. So, what constitutes pointy? For the sake of comparison, let's use Emerson knives, as they run the gamut on blade shapes.

Commander - not very pointy?
Gentlemen Jim and Bandito bot seem extremely pointy.
CQC-7 - pointy?
CQC-8 - pointy enough?
other examples, Emerson or otherwise?

ETA: In contrast, I have a ZT0561 that I can remove from my pocket and deploy with the flipper while getting a usable grip seemingly quicker than any of my waved knives. I see so many people endorse the wave feature that I must be going wrong somewhere.

About your deployment of a waved knife: it seems that you are grabbing too little of the handle as you're withdrawing the knife. My method (and it's just that, mine) is to push my thumb deep inside the pocket and have the rest of my fingers (on the outside of the pocket) loosely held. As the knife starts to come out, and the wave getting caught in the corner of the pocket, the base of my thumb and the base of my index finger start pinching the grip (near the choil/guard) so that when the wave has fully opened the knife, I have a full solid grip on it.

As to pointy, my outlook on that is: does the unsharpened side of the blade create more or less friction on the flesh when it penetrates. A good experiment is push (not stab) a knife through cardboard (somewhat thin carboard like the ones Amazon uses to send small packages) and feel how much and where is the penetration slowed or not (a forward grip enables a better feel for that sort of experiment).

When I did that experiment with some of my Emersons, the top three were: Persian, Gentleman Jim, CQC13 Bowie. The CQC 8 was middle of the pack (beat, but barely, by the CQC10 and CQC15 in my hands; in someone else's it could turn out different) and the CQC7 B, CQC7A and Commander were respectively dead last.

For me, even though it doesn't a 'wave', the Persian is the best one (if it had a wave, you'd stab your leg during deployment); it penetrates with amazing ease (there are plenty of videos on YouTube and other places that show it), the continuous curve slashes and slices with great ease and because of the ergonomics of the handle and blade, it works really well with 'reverse grip - edge in' techniques. YMMV :)

StraitR
11-11-2015, 02:00 PM
Great info by all. So, irregardless of the bandwidth size of application and shortcomings, it seems established that the folder is a viable defensive tool. I really like the info (videos) shared on the Spyderco P'kal, as the deployment is clear, and the overview video shows a general coarse direction for it's use, combined with crossing the technique over improvised weapons. For me, I think this could be the answer, as I've been carrying a Surefire E1B or EB1 in my left front pocket, in the same position, and use the same grip/deploy/strike method shown in the linked videos making the initial motion very familiar to me. Thanks again, and particularly to Tom/Misanthropist for the scope of their input. Looking forward to watching this topic play out, and learning. This is a new, yet very interesting topic for me.

Got a meeting in a few, more later.

Cecil Burch
11-11-2015, 03:45 PM
Two excellent articles by Chris Fry:

http://www.personaldefensenetwork.com/article/optimizing-the-everyday-carry-folding-knife-for-personal-protection/

http://www.mdtstraining.com/folding-knife-selection-carry-access/

StraitR
11-11-2015, 04:10 PM
Two excellent articles by Chris Fry:

http://www.personaldefensenetwork.com/article/optimizing-the-everyday-carry-folding-knife-for-personal-protection/

http://www.mdtstraining.com/folding-knife-selection-carry-access/

Excellent. Thank you Cecil.

JodyH
11-11-2015, 04:18 PM
From my limited knowledge I'd agree with most of the above, not optimal, but doable. I've seen personally, and heard other reports of, people successfully using folders in ECQC evos. Mostly waved Spydercos.

I've deployed my Spyderco P'kal folder twice in ECQC evos, never was able to draw my gun.
Same experience in Cecils class, I was able to deploy my Delica while entangled but not my handgun.

OnionsAndDragons
11-11-2015, 04:40 PM
As to blade shape: I'm heartily in agreement with the comments above re: Emersons. The Persian and GJ are my favorites by far. Haven't had a Bandito in hand, but it looks like my style too. The Persian is a beast.

The Persian has some of the advantages you get from a relatively straight pointed hawkbill, like the Clinch Pick or Reverse, but in opposite world. The same excellent pointy end, amazing slashing cuts, still maintaining a decent ability to rend and tear from RGEI. Where the CP type blade gets the pointy end, decent tear/rend in forward grip, and very powerful rending/tearing from the RGEI position, like big cat claw.

I also want to second the point about a pocket shield with a small fixed blade like the CP or Reverse being a very good option in dressy clothes. Or if you want to run extra lo pro with no clips hanging out.

I really like what Hatchetman has to say re having the blade ready if your spidey senses tingle. That really clicks with me.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

StraitR
11-11-2015, 05:11 PM
I've deployed my Spyderco P'kal folder twice in ECQC evos, never was able to draw my gun.
Same experience in Cecils class, I was able to deploy my Delica while entangled but not my handgun.

Jody, do you carry on the same side, or opposite side of your handgun? I've been thinking it makes sense to keep a blade on the support side as a form of weapon retention and/or alternate option if weapon side is entangled, as you mentioned.

How is everyone else carrying their folder?

JodyH
11-11-2015, 06:00 PM
Jody, do you carry on the same side, or opposite side of your handgun? I've been thinking it makes sense to keep a blade on the support side as a form of weapon retention and/or alternate option if weapon side is entangled, as you mentioned.

How is everyone else carrying their folder?
Strong side front pocket.
The P'kal is "waved" and the Delica is just a "Spydy hole".
If I'm carrying weak side it'll be a fixed blade (centerline clinch pick), I don't trust my left hand dexterity enough to reliably deploy a folder.
One thing you learn in ECQC and IAJJ is that a botched tool deployment is worse than no tool deployment.

Wondering Beard
11-11-2015, 06:13 PM
How is everyone else carrying their folder?

When I carried purely folders (no fixed blade), it was one one each side and I practiced extensively my weak hand deployment so that I could do it without thought. When John Holshen had me on my back and punching my face (had a FIST helmet on), I accessed my weak hand knife without any problems.

StraitR
11-11-2015, 07:35 PM
Strong side front pocket.
The P'kal is "waved" and the Delica is just a "Spydy hole".
If I'm carrying weak side it'll be a fixed blade (centerline clinch pick), I don't trust my left hand dexterity enough to reliably deploy a folder.
One thing you learn in ECQC and IAJJ is that a botched tool deployment is worse than no tool deployment.

That makes sense. The more I look into the P'kal and the jab/strike and block/rip use, the more I admire the intuitive nature of it. After a little searching, most of what I'm seeing on the P'kal, including the videos of Craig that Tom posted, is strong side. It's peaked my interest enough that I went ahead and ordered one of the trainers off Amazon to try some of this out.


When I carried purely folders (no fixed blade), it was one one each side and I practiced extensively my weak hand deployment so that I could do it without thought. When John Holshen had me on my back and punching my face (had a FIST helmet on), I accessed my weak hand knife without any problems.


Thanks for the insight WB. I think having the trainer will allow me to experiment with deployment from both sides and see what happens. As I mentioned earlier, I've carried a Surefire E1B or EB1 in my support side pocket, in the same forward position Craig demonstrates, and have practiced the same drawing and striking motion with it for a long time. Not being familiar with the Spyderco P'kal nor the defensive use of knives, I've never considered the similarities of the motion/deployment. I think familiarity of this motion is what's drawing me to the P'kal.

Isaac
11-11-2015, 08:29 PM
Keep at the pkal. When I 1st got mine I had already been spoiled by the waved delica, but once you get consistent w the pkal, the pay off is YUUUUUUUGE.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

JodyH
11-11-2015, 09:04 PM
If the P'kal isn't to your liking another option is a Karambit.
I have a Spyderco Karahawk that I often carry and find it to be very easy to integrate into boxing or working in the clinch/entangled.

Hatchetman
11-11-2015, 09:14 PM
If the P'kal isn't to your liking another option is a Karambit.
I have a Spyderco Karahawk that I often carry and find it to be very easy to integrate into boxing or working in the clinch/entangled.

I have a fond place in my heart for karambits. Short lead hooks with one are very hard to do much against as most common hook parries/defenses leave you eating the blade. I have a Waved Fox karambit and it deploys so smoothly from a weak side pocket into a lead hook that it's the one Waved knife I really like. It's pretty hard to use a k-bit in a utility role however, and they look so darn evil that I expect they would pique the interest of any LEO who found you with one.

ST911
11-11-2015, 09:59 PM
As far as specific training, other than the Insights course Michael de Bethencourt is the only one I'm aware of:

http://snubtraining.com/essentials-of-the-defensive-folding-knife/

No personal experience with him though; I planned to take this a few years ago but it was cancelled at the last minute.

I've taken Michael de Bethencourt's 1-day knife class and included it in an AAR here.
https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?9937-AAR-Michael-de-Bethencourt-snubtraining-com-Folding-Knife-Snub-Courses-10-11-13-13

I've also taken Michael Janich's MBC, as instructed by Eric Mayes.
http://www.martialbladeconcepts.com/
http://rmselfdefense.selfdefense-hapkido.com/regional-instrtuctors/

Both classes advocated and emphasized simple maneuvers with common folders for regular folks. Various models of Spydercos were prominently featured for their simplicity and comparative expense. MdB's core techniques were more lethal in nature, and MBC's "defanging the snake"/biomechanical cutting kept lethality much more incidental. Both heavily emphasized pre-emptive retrievals. I got a lot out of both events, and will continue with these instructors and others mentioned in this thread.

StraitR
11-11-2015, 10:15 PM
Thanks ST. It's funny you mention MBC. I was just over on TPI reading about "defanging the snake". I decided to search for more info about it and ended up finding this YT playlist on MBC with Michael Janich. Watching now.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XVSFDTNMSX4&list=PLMzm8DAE1huFdkyD3HawrPLykryuDoKrj

ETA: I may have to pick up a few of the full length DVDs. Apparently, the "Enhanced Versions" show you how to train on your own. I realize DVDs are not a good substitute for live training, but I can't run out and take one of these classes next week, or the foreseeable future. Given what I know about using edged weapons, I have nowhere to go but up.

SouthNarc
11-11-2015, 11:22 PM
StraitR I just noticed you are in Central FL. I'm doing EWO in Copeland (Lauderdale) at Altair Training Solutions in January.

Cecil Burch
11-12-2015, 12:43 AM
I've deployed my Spyderco P'kal folder twice in ECQC evos, never was able to draw my gun.
Same experience in Cecils class, I was able to deploy my Delica while entangled but not my handgun.

Pretty typical. It is easiest to get a fixed blade out and deployed, but as long as there is at least a modicum of understanding of positional control, the folder can get out and stabbing. The greater the ability to get some positional control, the easier that happens.

I just did a seminar in Chicago where during the final grounded exercise, one person with little ground experience panicked a bit and got the knife out when he was completely dominated. The other guy took the knife away and used it without even taking a breath.

JodyH
11-12-2015, 07:55 AM
Yea, Craig's deadpan "poor timing decision" as someone gets fed their own knife/gun in an evo is classic understatement.

StraitR
11-12-2015, 09:26 AM
StraitR I just noticed you are in Central FL. I'm doing EWO in Copeland (Lauderdale) at Altair Training Solutions in January.

Thanks Craig. I went and found it on your 2016 training schedule, so I'll send an email to the class POC today.

ETA: Email sent to Shirley

Cecil Burch
11-12-2015, 11:44 AM
Yea, Craig's deadpan "poor timing decision" as someone gets fed their own knife/gun in an evo is classic understatement.

The funniest part was as the guy was getting his knife taken away, he looked directly at me and his expression said "I know, I know......".

NickA
11-12-2015, 12:25 PM
Yea, Craig's deadpan "poor timing decision" as someone gets fed their own knife/gun in an evo is classic understatement.
"You're being stabbed with your own knife" is also both instructive and motivational.

StraitR
11-12-2015, 12:49 PM
Thanks ST. It's funny you mention MBC. I was just over on TPI reading about "defanging the snake". I decided to search for more info about it and ended up finding this YT playlist on MBC with Michael Janich. Watching now.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XVSFDTNMSX4&list=PLMzm8DAE1huFdkyD3HawrPLykryuDoKrj



I thought I would revisit this after watching the whole playlist on MBC.

My initial thoughts, be them right or wrong, are that while MBC looks to be extremely effective, it comes off as very time and system dedication intensive. Meaning, it's a process of learning moves with their corresponding counters plus various footwork related to each. So, between the checks, thrusts, slices, angles 1-2-3-4, step 1-2-...-9, transitions,... and all the Steven Segal hand slapping, I went into vaporlock just watching what equates to preview trailers. I simply don't have the time, and just thinking this way tells me I don't have the drive, to learn and maintain an edged weapon system of this complexity.

Additionally, and again this is just my overall initial feeling, I see knife deployment as it pertains to my defensive uses as something that's brought to bear in response to a disparity of force or weapon retention issue, not so much as my response to someone pulling a knife on me, which knife vs knife seems the theme in MBC. Obviously, one cannot predict these events and I see how much, if not all, of MBC crosses over to the defense against other weapons, i.e. the blunt force trauma variety, but it still goes back to the complexity and time commitment issue. I'll be hitting 42 in January and have a relatively time consuming profession that requires travel, with a wife, a three year old daughter, and a son on the way that require my attention (which I give joyfully).

After reading a lot more over on TPI, I think I would be best served by devoting as much free time as possible into additional strength and conditioning instead of a complex edged weapon system. Of course, this is on top of the pistol work, both daily dry and weekly live, that I currently do.

I think what I'm looking for falls more inline with the Shivworks methodology of blade use as it's applied and integrated into the overall self-defense paradigm. I'm going to try to work that EWO class in, but I'm currently traveling those days and have to see if rescheduling the trip is possible.

JodyH
11-12-2015, 01:21 PM
Get some good non-diagnostic self defense training.
That Cecil Burch guy is pretty good I hear ;) .
After getting the unarmed basics down, add a knife and/or gun into the mix and you're off to a good start.

Wondering Beard
11-12-2015, 01:24 PM
Thanks for the insight WB. I think having the trainer will allow me to experiment with deployment from both sides and see what happens. As I mentioned earlier, I've carried a Surefire E1B or EB1 in my support side pocket, in the same forward position Craig demonstrates, and have practiced the same drawing and striking motion with it for a long time. Not being familiar with the Spyderco P'kal nor the defensive use of knives, I've never considered the similarities of the motion/deployment. I think familiarity of this motion is what's drawing me to the P'kal.

Sounds like the Pikal will be a good fit for you. It's great folder.

breakingtime91
11-12-2015, 01:32 PM
is the cheapest way to get into a pikal amazon?

Wondering Beard
11-12-2015, 01:43 PM
I thought I would revisit this after watching the whole playlist on MBC.

My initial thoughts, be them right or wrong, are that while MBC looks to be extremely effective, it comes off as very time and system dedication intensive. Meaning, it's a process of learning moves with their corresponding counters plus various footwork related to each. So, between the checks, thrusts, slices, angles 1-2-3-4, step 1-2-...-9, transitions,... and all the Steven Segal hand slapping, I went into vaporlock just watching what equates to preview trailers. I simply don't have the time, and just thinking this way tells me I don't have the drive, to learn and maintain an edged weapon system of this complexity.

Additionally, and again this is just my overall initial feeling, I see knife deployment as it pertains to my defensive uses as something that's brought to bear in response to a disparity of force or weapon retention issue, not so much as my response to someone pulling a knife on me, which knife vs knife seems the theme in MBC. Obviously, one cannot predict these events and I see how much, if not all, of MBC crosses over to the defense against other weapons, i.e. the blunt force trauma variety, but it still goes back to the complexity and time commitment issue. I'll be hitting 42 in January and have a relatively time consuming profession that requires travel, with a wife, a three year old daughter, and a son on the way that require my attention (which I give joyfully).

After reading a lot more over on TPI, I think I would be best served by devoting as much free time as possible into additional strength and conditioning instead of a complex edged weapon system. Of course, this is on top of the pistol work, both daily dry and weekly live, that I currently do.

I think what I'm looking for falls more inline with the Shivworks methodology of blade use as it's applied and integrated into the overall self-defense paradigm. I'm going to try to work that EWO class in, but I'm currently traveling those days and have to see if rescheduling the trip is possible.

I can understand why those techniques look complicated and time consuming to learn, however, they're really not. While I haven't done MBC, my knife training comes from a similar place (more traditional FMA) and what they teach very well is, distance and timing, and versatility in the use of your knife.

Now, I'm not saying that MBC is superior to what Southnarc teaches, it is not, and personally I have been moving away from a lot of that stuff but it is worth your time to gain an understanding of the concepts presented by such systems. I think your choice on organizing your priorities is fundamentally correct, I'm just asking you to keep an approach like MBC in mind for further down the road. I believe Janich has one or two day classes that he gives (or did give) around the country and you can gain a lot just by attending one at some point.

StraitR
11-12-2015, 01:53 PM
is the cheapest way to get into a pikal amazon?

That's what I found. I bought both live blade ($137) and trainer ($143) from Amazon. I'm a knife nut with a substantial favorites list of dealers whom I like and have experience with, but Amazon was $20+ cheaper than any I found.

breakingtime91
11-12-2015, 02:05 PM
That's what I found. I bought both live blade ($137) and trainer ($143) from Amazon. I'm a knife nut with a substantial favorites list of dealers whom I like and have experience with, but Amazon was $20+ cheaper than any I found.

cool man. I have tried multiple different fixed blades and none have made the cut concealment/consistency of carry for me. I do carry a light/folder everyday though...I think the pkal is a good solution to my laziness/want of a capable blade. I also really dig the trainer because I would like to get some training in..

StraitR
11-12-2015, 02:24 PM
I can understand why those techniques look complicated and time consuming to learn, however, they're really not. While I haven't done MBC, my knife training comes from a similar place (more traditional FMA) and what they teach very well is, distance and timing, and versatility in the use of your knife.

Now, I'm not saying that MBC is superior to what Southnarc teaches, it is not, and personally I have been moving away from a lot of that stuff but it is worth your time to gain an understanding of the concepts presented by such systems. I think your choice on organizing your priorities is fundamentally correct, I'm just asking you to keep an approach like MBC in mind for further down the road. I believe Janich has one or two day classes that he gives (or did give) around the country and you can gain a lot just by attending one at some point.

Well, if anything, I'm wise enough in my years to have learned to heed the knowledge from those with more experience than I, so I'll definitely keep MBC in mind as I progress.

Just to share, in the MBC Volume 5 Reverse Edge Methods, and at 6:32 is where the wheels fell of for me. He starts the segment with, "So let's look at some basic examples..."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dk3UGE5kh9M&list=PLMzm8DAE1huFdkyD3HawrPLykryuDoKrj&index=6


Jody, thank you. I've actually taken some of Cecil's advice from another thread and started vetting a local BJJ school. If it's found wanting, there is a Gracie Academy 45 minutes away that will suffice. I'm seeing my focus change from just things I enjoy training for, such as shooting, and moving toward very clear points of weakness in my self-defense game, which was the catalyst for this discussion. The need has been defined, the will has been found, now the proper reappropriation of time and funds must be applied. It's all on me.

StraitR
11-12-2015, 02:26 PM
ETA: Damn it! Too slow again.

I think that's twice in two days, Tom. No worries, you'll beat me Soon™. :p

DI1
11-12-2015, 02:39 PM
Jody, thank you. I've actually taken some of Cecil's advice from another thread and started vetting a local BJJ school. If it's found wanting, there is a Gracie Academy 45 minutes away that will suffice. I'm seeing my focus change from just things I enjoy training for, such as shooting, and moving toward very clear points of weakness in my self-defense game, which was the catalyst for this discussion. The need has been defined, the will has been found, now the proper reappropriation of time and funds must be applied. It's all on me.


I would stay away from BJJ and Gracie at this point unless you really want to work on your ground fighting skills. You do NOT want to end up on the ground. If you learn good stand up techniques (FMA, Muy Thai, Boxing) you would be far better off. You really want to keep things simple! FMA is an excellent system for stick, knife, empty hand IF you have a good instructor nearby. You will not be able to learn these systems from watching Youtube videos or DVD's. Seek out a quality instructor and get the basics down. You don't need to become a "knife fighter", you just need some basic skills which will allow you to figure out what works best for you.
When you ask people "what kind of knife do you like", the answers are about the same as "what kind of car do you like". Much of this is personal preference and what works for one person may not be preferable to another.

Wondering Beard
11-12-2015, 02:49 PM
Well, if anything, I'm wise enough in my years to have learned to heed the knowledge from those with more experience than I, so I'll definitely keep MBC in mind as I progress.

Just to share, in the MBC Volume 5 Reverse Edge Methods, and at 6:32 is where the wheels fell of for me. He starts the segment with, "So let's look at some basic examples..."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dk3UGE5kh9M&list=PLMzm8DAE1huFdkyD3HawrPLykryuDoKrj&index=6



I can understand why the wheels came off :-)

You've just been looking at this stuff and your arms have no, or little "muscle memory" to enable you to follow this more free-wheeling flow drill. I wouldn't be surprised that in one day in an MBC class, you'd have this stuff down pat since the build up always starts slow. In any case, your present approach is a good one and if you want your knife work to get more sophisticated or just plain learn different stuff from a different point of view (we do that with our gun training), the options aren't lacking.

JodyH
11-12-2015, 03:43 PM
BJJ transfers really well to the standing clinch, which is where most street fights end up right before feet get tangled and everybody falls down. I train in a full MMA gym (BJJ, MT, wrestling, boxing) and BJJ/wrestling are by far the most relevant to street fights.
I get to put it to use regularly while working concert security.

ST911
11-12-2015, 03:45 PM
My initial thoughts, be them right or wrong, are that while MBC looks to be extremely effective, it comes off as very time and system dedication intensive. Meaning, it's a process of learning moves with their corresponding counters plus various footwork related to each. So, between the checks, thrusts, slices, angles 1-2-3-4, step 1-2-...-9, transitions,... and all the Steven Segal hand slapping, I went into vaporlock just watching what equates to preview trailers. I simply don't have the time, and just thinking this way tells me I don't have the drive, to learn and maintain an edged weapon system of this complexity.

Additionally, and again this is just my overall initial feeling, I see knife deployment as it pertains to my defensive uses as something that's brought to bear in response to a disparity of force or weapon retention issue, not so much as my response to someone pulling a knife on me, which knife vs knife seems the theme in MBC. Obviously, one cannot predict these events and I see how much, if not all, of MBC crosses over to the defense against other weapons, i.e. the blunt force trauma variety, but it still goes back to the complexity and time commitment issue. I'll be hitting 42 in January and have a relatively time consuming profession that requires travel, with a wife, a three year old daughter, and a son on the way that require my attention (which I give joyfully).

After reading a lot more over on TPI, I think I would be best served by devoting as much free time as possible into additional strength and conditioning instead of a complex edged weapon system. Of course, this is on top of the pistol work, both daily dry and weekly live, that I currently do.

I think what I'm looking for falls more inline with the Shivworks methodology of blade use as it's applied and integrated into the overall self-defense paradigm. I'm going to try to work that EWO class in, but I'm currently traveling those days and have to see if rescheduling the trip is possible.


I can understand why those techniques look complicated and time consuming to learn, however, they're really not. While I haven't done MBC, my knife training comes from a similar place (more traditional FMA) and what they teach very well is, distance and timing, and versatility in the use of your knife.

Now, I'm not saying that MBC is superior to what Southnarc teaches, it is not, and personally I have been moving away from a lot of that stuff but it is worth your time to gain an understanding of the concepts presented by such systems. I think your choice on organizing your priorities is fundamentally correct, I'm just asking you to keep an approach like MBC in mind for further down the road. I believe Janich has one or two day classes that he gives (or did give) around the country and you can gain a lot just by attending one at some point.

Good points in both posts.

I would never expect proficiency from a one or two-day course. My goal, and what my experiences did was give me an introduction to each instructor's ideas of fighting with a blade, accompanied by a simple master technique that would work for some common confrontations. I've retained good execution of those master techniques 2 (MdB) and 1 (MBC) years later, which is a pretty good outcome for the investment made. In other DT work and in real-world fights before those classes and since, I see places where those master techniques could have been effectively utilized if a blade had been justified. Two-way knife fights with even minimally skilled aggressors would require a lot more work than either class offered.

ECQC and EWO are on my bucket list, with the same simple goal(s) in mind.

BobLoblaw
11-12-2015, 03:50 PM
Well, if anything, I'm wise enough in my years to have learned to heed the knowledge from those with more experience than I, so I'll definitely keep MBC in mind as I progress.

Just to share, in the MBC Volume 5 Reverse Edge Methods, and at 6:32 is where the wheels fell of for me. He starts the segment with, "So let's look at some basic examples..."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dk3UGE5kh9M&list=PLMzm8DAE1huFdkyD3HawrPLykryuDoKrj&index=6


Jody, thank you. I've actually taken some of Cecil's advice from another thread and started vetting a local BJJ school. If it's found wanting, there is a Gracie Academy 45 minutes away that will suffice. I'm seeing my focus change from just things I enjoy training for, such as shooting, and moving toward very clear points of weakness in my self-defense game, which was the catalyst for this discussion. The need has been defined, the will has been found, now the proper reappropriation of time and funds must be applied. It's all on me.

Perhaps my ignorance is showing but it seems he's hoping pain and muscle damage will stop a knife-wielding attacker intent on murdering him. Is that correct and if so, why not go for more damaging/lethal blows when using lethal force?

Wondering Beard
11-12-2015, 04:36 PM
Perhaps my ignorance is showing but it seems he's hoping pain and muscle damage will stop a knife-wielding attacker intent on murdering him. Is that correct and if so, why not go for more damaging/lethal blows when using lethal force?

It's not pain or muscle damage, it's cutting tendons that can activate muscles or cutting muscles sufficiently that they can't do their work well. They call it bio-mechanical cutting.

Whether it's a valid approach or not has generated a lot of often acrimonious discussion all over the web. I think we had our own (non acrimonious) discussion here some months back.

Wondering Beard
11-12-2015, 04:42 PM
Good points in both posts.

I would never expect proficiency from a one or two-day course. My goal, and what my experiences did was give me an introduction to each instructor's ideas of fighting with a blade, accompanied by a simple master technique that would work for some common confrontations. I've retained good execution of those master techniques 2 (MdB) and 1 (MBC) years later, which is a pretty good outcome for the investment made. In other DT work and in real-world fights before those classes and since, I see places where those master techniques could have been effectively utilized if a blade had been justified. Two-way knife fights with even minimally skilled aggressors would require a lot more work than either class offered.

ECQC and EWO are on my bucket list, with the same simple goal(s) in mind.

Well said

StraitR
11-12-2015, 07:01 PM
It's not pain or muscle damage, it's cutting tendons that can activate muscles or cutting muscles sufficiently that they can't do their work well. They call it bio-mechanical cutting.

Whether it's a valid approach or not has generated a lot of often acrimonious discussion all over the web. I think we had our own (non acrimonious) discussion here some months back.


Good points in both posts.

I would never expect proficiency from a one or two-day course. My goal, and what my experiences did was give me an introduction to each instructor's ideas of fighting with a blade, accompanied by a simple master technique that would work for some common confrontations. I've retained good execution of those master techniques 2 (MdB) and 1 (MBC) years later, which is a pretty good outcome for the investment made. In other DT work and in real-world fights before those classes and since, I see places where those master techniques could have been effectively utilized if a blade had been justified. Two-way knife fights with even minimally skilled aggressors would require a lot more work than either class offered.

ECQC and EWO are on my bucket list, with the same simple goal(s) in mind.

I couldn't agree more on having master techniques with broad application, and in my mind, the more intuitive the better. This is the impression I get from Craig's methodology, and that's why I've come to the same conclusion highlighted in your last statement.


Well said

Absolutely.

Malamute
11-12-2015, 07:17 PM
It's not pain or muscle damage, it's cutting tendons that can activate muscles or cutting muscles sufficiently that they can't do their work well. They call it bio-mechanical cutting.

Whether it's a valid approach or not has generated a lot of often acrimonious discussion all over the web. I think we had our own (non acrimonious) discussion here some months back.

Do you have a link to that discussion here?

StraitR
11-12-2015, 07:34 PM
BJJ transfers really well to the standing clinch, which is where most street fights end up right before feet get tangled and everybody falls down. I train in a full MMA gym (BJJ, MT, wrestling, boxing) and BJJ/wrestling are by far the most relevant to street fights.
I get to put it to use regularly while working concert security.

With a couple years of MT and more international and domestic bar fights than I can count (Go Navy) in my 20's, I'm confident in my striking. That said, my experience mirrors exactly what you point out, which all of those fights aside from a few decisive victories, have ended up on the ground. At that point, all I had with me was blind aggression, shear will, and a sprinkle of luck because I got nothing on the ground. When that happened, it was unguided jockeying for position to figure out who was going to choke out who or until everyone was gassed.

Fortunately, the MT plus spidey senses prevented me from ever getting KTFO, and I'd prefer to keep it that way. I'm not in my 20's anymore, so if I can learn some ground skills to leverage my age related speed degradation, I think that could prove to be extremely beneficial. The other part of BJJ that interests me is, it seems to be a good foundation of skills that could help create the space and opportunity to bring a weapon into play.

breakingtime91
11-12-2015, 07:36 PM
With a couple years of MT and more international and domestic bar fights than I can count (Go Navy) in my 20's, I'm confident in my striking. That said, my experience mirrors exactly what you point out, which all of those fights aside from a few decisive victories, have ended up on the ground. At that point, all I had with me was blind aggression, shear will, and a sprinkle of luck because I got nothing on the ground. When that happened, it was unguided jockeying for position to figure out who was going to choke out who or until everyone was gassed.

Fortunately, the MT plus spidey senses prevented me from ever getting KTFO, and I'd prefer to keep it that way. I'm not in my 20's anymore, so if I can learn some ground skills to leverage my age related speed degradation, I think that could prove to be extremely beneficial. The other part of BJJ that interests me is, it seems to be a good foundation of skills that could help create the space and opportunity to bring a weapon into play.

Everything I have been evolved in besides once instance (this includes youthful foolishness, marine corps, and defending myself recently) ended up on the ground. I am not "weak" on the ground but if I went up against a modestly trained individual I would either be matched or in trouble... I need to look into this also.

BobLoblaw
11-12-2015, 08:30 PM
It's not pain or muscle damage, it's cutting tendons that can activate muscles or cutting muscles sufficiently that they can't do their work well. They call it bio-mechanical cutting.

Whether it's a valid approach or not has generated a lot of often acrimonious discussion all over the web. I think we had our own (non acrimonious) discussion here some months back.

Thanks. As a less-than-novice it seemed like a "why didn't you shoot him in the leg" type of deal.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

GAP
11-12-2015, 11:22 PM
With a couple years of MT and more international and domestic bar fights than I can count (Go Navy) in my 20's, I'm confident in my striking. That said, my experience mirrors exactly what you point out, which all of those fights aside from a few decisive victories, have ended up on the ground. At that point, all I had with me was blind aggression, shear will, and a sprinkle of luck because I got nothing on the ground. When that happened, it was unguided jockeying for position to figure out who was going to choke out who or until everyone was gassed.

Fortunately, the MT plus spidey senses prevented me from ever getting KTFO, and I'd prefer to keep it that way. I'm not in my 20's anymore, so if I can learn some ground skills to leverage my age related speed degradation, I think that could prove to be extremely beneficial. The other part of BJJ that interests me is, it seems to be a good foundation of skills that could help create the space and opportunity to bring a weapon into play.


Everything I have been evolved in besides once instance (this includes youthful foolishness, marine corps, and defending myself recently) ended up on the ground. I am not "weak" on the ground but if I went up against a modestly trained individual I would either be matched or in trouble... I need to look into this also.

I've competed in Professional MMA for eight years and I'd have to agree my BJJ base is by far the most important tool I have. I cross train in BJJ, Boxing, Muay Thai, Judo and Wrestling. All of them are useful but when carrying a firearm I would consider BJJ to be more important for various reasons.

- Weapon retention
- Creating space
- Positional Control
- Understanding what gets someone in trouble (ex: arm positioning, neck exposure)

You could train boxing for ten years, face a kid with a few months of wrestling and get completely dominated. Less likely the other way around in my opinion. Standing you need to utilize your ability to defuse the situation or draw your firearm. A physical encounter should be your last resort when carrying a firearm. I'd want to be able to control the up close and personal/weapon retention situations if I had to pick.

GRV
11-12-2015, 11:57 PM
Random observation. The Emerson PSARK has almost the same blade shape as the clinch pick if you hold it edge in.

Wondering Beard
11-13-2015, 12:37 PM
Do you have a link to that discussion here?

While the discussion is not primarily about bio mechanical cutting, we do discuss it well: https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?15300-Knives-for-Primary-Self-Defense

Wondering Beard
11-13-2015, 12:41 PM
Thanks. As a less-than-novice it seemed like a "why didn't you shoot him in the leg" type of deal.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

It easily can and I've come across some discussions that treated as such (don't ask for a link as I don't remember and probably don't want to :)) .

Wondering Beard
11-13-2015, 12:42 PM
I'm just a boring civilian, what's MT and KTFO?

Cheap Shot
11-13-2015, 12:43 PM
I've competed in Professional MMA for eight years and I'd have to agree my BJJ base is by far the most important tool I have. I cross train in BJJ, Boxing, Muay Thai, Judo and Wrestling. All of them are useful but when carrying a firearm I would consider BJJ to be more important for various reasons.

- Weapon retention
- Creating space
- Positional Control
- Understanding what gets someone in trouble (ex: arm positioning, neck exposure)

You could train boxing for ten years, face a kid with a few months of wrestling and get completely dominated. Less likely the other way around in my opinion. Standing you need to utilize your ability to defuse the situation or draw your firearm. A physical encounter should be your last resort when carrying a firearm. I'd want to be able to control the up close and personal/weapon retention situations if I had to pick.

This is pretty darn compelling i.e. definitive to me

Thanks for commenting

JodyH
11-13-2015, 01:20 PM
I'm just a boring civilian, what's MT and KTFO?
MT = Muay Thai (kick boxing with knees and elbows thrown in).

KTFO = Knocked The F Out

Wondering Beard
11-13-2015, 01:40 PM
MT = Muay Thai (kick boxing with knees and elbows thrown in).

KTFO = Knocked The F Out

And here I thought they were some kind of arcane military acronyms :o

StraitR
11-13-2015, 02:22 PM
I've competed in Professional MMA for eight years and I'd have to agree my BJJ base is by far the most important tool I have. I cross train in BJJ, Boxing, Muay Thai, Judo and Wrestling. All of them are useful but when carrying a firearm I would consider BJJ to be more important for various reasons.

- Weapon retention
- Creating space
- Positional Control
- Understanding what gets someone in trouble (ex: arm positioning, neck exposure)

You could train boxing for ten years, face a kid with a few months of wrestling and get completely dominated. Less likely the other way around in my opinion. Standing you need to utilize your ability to defuse the situation or draw your firearm. A physical encounter should be your last resort when carrying a firearm. I'd want to be able to control the up close and personal/weapon retention situations if I had to pick.

That's great info. It solidifies via experience what I was merely theorizing and attempting to piece together through rational thought, so it's very much appreciated.

Cecil Burch
11-13-2015, 04:15 PM
..............All of them are useful but when carrying a firearm I would consider BJJ to be more important for various reasons.

- Weapon retention
- Creating space
- Positional Control
- Understanding what gets someone in trouble (ex: arm positioning, neck exposure)

You could train boxing for ten years, face a kid with a few months of wrestling and get completely dominated. Less likely the other way around in my opinion. Standing you need to utilize your ability to defuse the situation or draw your firearm. A physical encounter should be your last resort when carrying a firearm. I'd want to be able to control the up close and personal/weapon retention situations if I had to pick.


I could not agree more with this. 100% spot on.

RevolverRob
11-14-2015, 12:07 AM
- Are folders a feasible defensive option one can train and become proficient with, or is this just something people like to talk about online?

Yes.


- If so, are there notable trainers doing classes geared specifically for folders? I really want to take EWO, bad. Ok, really bad.

Shivworks, Tactical Defense Institute (TDI), Martial Blade Concepts (Michael Janich).


- How about blade specifics for the role?
-blade styles and their pros/cons
-blade length, is there a minimum

Blade styles? No. Sheepsfoot/wharncliffs are great for utility purposes and that's what I generally carry a folding blade for. So, I used them most often. Blade length? Whatever is legal. For instance for me in Chicago, that's a 2.5" limit, back in Texas, it is a 5.5" limit and while bigger isn't always better, putting deeper/bigger holes in people is better.


- What about deployment methods? Auto, Assisted, Waved, Flippers, Manual? Thumb disc vs stud vs hole?

Wave. But frankly, I think most folks who have pressured tested folder deployment come to the same conclusion, a fixed blade is better, more reliable, and easier to deploy. Can't carry a fixed blade? Have a sheath made for a locked open folder. I will carry a folded folder for defensive use, only, only, if I can't otherwise carry a fixed blade. Given that I'd prefer a 2-3" bladed $10 paring knife to a $100 Spyderco tactical folder for stabbing someone...I'm probably biased.


- Locking mechanisms, important? Liner, Axis, Frame lock, Compression?

Locking mechanisms are really important for utility purposes. I keep seeing folks talking about locks failing when you jab it into someone. Yet, if you take an old slipjoint and stab it into something hard, you usually don't get the blade closing on your fingers. I guess my point is, pick whatever you like, practice with it, and don't deviate. For years I've used lockbacks of various types and they are my personal preference, simple for the long familiarity I have with them.


- Blade steel, does it matter?

Can I sharpen it, does it hold an edge, does it not chip or break when I jam it into something tough, but also squishy? Then it's good steel.


- How is a defensive folder best carried? Strong side, support side, other?

Whatever works best for your lifestyle and position.


- Brand/Model preferences? Who's carrying what, where, and why?

Ha..I am a total knife geek and even as a complete and utter knife geek, I have no strong preference about brand. I look for blades that fulfill my main purposes (legality, utility, concealment, and then brand/blade preference.


- Do you have firsthand experience deploying a folder in a defensive role? Are you willing to share?

Yes I do. I guess. I was involved in an altercation in a parking lot with three individuals, the leader of which was a loud, intoxicated, teenager (I too was a teenager at the time). They exited the car and started to verbally harass me, when I removed the leader from my space (I shoved the dude back out of my personal space), he went back to the car to retrieve a tire iron. While he did that and his back was turned, I removed the large sized Smith and Wesson SWAT folder I had in my pocket and surreptitiously opened the blade, locking it into place. When the leader of the group turned back with his tire iron and saw the 4" blade of my knife out and ready to go, he and his cohort decided they had choir practice to attend to and left posthaste. It is the only time I have threatened someone with the use of deadly force.

I will just note, when he went back and got that tire iron, I knew it was gonna be on. So, when I pulled out that blade and locked it open, I had full intentions of fucking that dude's world up, but good. Fortunately for everyone involved that didn't happen and everyone went home (literally) in one piece.


- Did you stay in a Holiday Inn Express last night?

I only go to Holiday Inn Expresses when someone's mom wants to go there.

-Rob

DI1
11-14-2015, 09:40 AM
"I only go to Holiday Inn Expresses when someone's mom wants to go there"

Rob, you win the best response to a post!

DI1
11-14-2015, 09:50 AM
Just wanted to clarify, I don't disagree with the guys who have trained in both styles and are proficient.
Without previously knowing your skill level of combatives, I recommend people learn stand up first, then get comfortable on the ground.
I have a very good friend who is a Gracie instructor and have trained with some excellent fighters over the years, none of them would ever deliberately want to go to the ground in a real world fight where you have a high likelihood of getting kicked in the head by another assailant or getting your head slammed into concrete. If however, you find yourself on the ground, you need the skills to win. We're not talking about MMA matches and gym workouts, this is fighting for your life and win at all cost scenarios.

Glenn E. Meyer
11-14-2015, 10:58 AM
Given that I'd prefer a 2-3" bladed $10 paring knife

Just a comment. I was an expert witness on a case where a strong young man got into an argument after a car accident with an older, out of it male driver. The young man went up to bluster at the old guy. Old guy pulled out a paring knife and stuck it into a sweet spot on the young man's chest. He dropped stone cold dead right there.

As far as the knives, certainly no expert. In the Insights Defensive Knife class way back when and a more recent short class with Chuck Rives (a Janich guy), it was Delicas.

I don't like studs after slipping off one and cutting the crap out of my thumb.

JodyH
11-14-2015, 01:58 PM
Just wanted to clarify, I don't disagree with the guys who have trained in both styles and are proficient.
Without previously knowing your skill level of combatives, I recommend people learn stand up first, then get comfortable on the ground.
I have a very good friend who is a Gracie instructor and have trained with some excellent fighters over the years, none of them would ever deliberately want to go to the ground in a real world fight where you have a high likelihood of getting kicked in the head by another assailant or getting your head slammed into concrete. If however, you find yourself on the ground, you need the skills to win. We're not talking about MMA matches and gym workouts, this is fighting for your life and win at all cost scenarios.
BJJ is not all ground fighting, the techniques directly translate to standup grappling.
I've seen way more grappling in street fights than I ever have anything resembling boxing. People don't like to trade punches so they hug up and try to suplex or hip toss each other (or just bulldog their opponent to the ground).
For someone just getting into combatives my recommendation is find a gym that mixes collegiate style folk wrestling, BJJ and Judo with Muay Thai.
With those four you have ranged strikes, clinch strikes, takedown defense, solid standup grappling and an assortment of throws from the clinch. And if it does end up on the ground you have some escapes and attacks from the ground.
Only one? BJJ or collegiate wrestling because it works from the clinch and you have takedown defense along with escapes and attacks from the ground.

StraitR
11-14-2015, 03:52 PM
So, I've had the P'kal trainer for a day and while I definitely like it and will integrate it, I have a concern/question/quandary.

I watched Craig's video's on P'kal deployment and application overview, as noted previously in this thread. Cliff notes: The knife is deployed RGEI and held in the lead to be effectively used in what Craig calls, "a knife jab". I really like it, as the motion is intuitive and crosses over really well to other improvised weapons, which plays a role in my dilemma.

I'm a righty and naturally have an orthodox fighting stance. If I carry the P'kal my right pocket and deploy with my right hand, I'll need to stand southpaw to use it as designed. While I clearly prefer to hold the knife is my right (weapon/strong/whatever) hand, it feels completely awkward to stand southpaw to deliver the appropriate jabs.

My rational reaction to this is, switch to support side carry, and and deploy into my left hand. This is why...

1- All my real world experience, vast majority of MT training, and my natural knee-jerk reaction is into an orthodox stance and deliver jabs with my left hand. P-F is the wrong place for humble-bragging, so please don't take this the wrong way, as I'm just trying to make a point. I have successfully changed a few minds with my jab and thwarted a few full on altercations, so I have ZERO desire to remove this from my playbook. Historically, if given the choice, it's my lead in. So now that you know that, if we ever get into a tussle, I expect you to be honorable and not take advantage of that intel. :p Wait, we're talking about fighting, shit.
2- I appendix carry and feel that if I'm able to access the P'kal from the suggested inboard/forward pocket location and deploy it via the required motion, I should be able to access my firearm (inches away). No experience here, pure speculation, and I realize there are no certainties either way.
3- I'm still without a support hand lethal force option.
4- I currently carry a Surefire EB1 in the support side pocket. It's carried in the same inboard/forward location and deployed in the EXACT same grip/motion for striking which being familiar with the motion was the reasoning behind the P'kal purchase.

Cons:

1- Would need to slide the EB1 around to 9 o'clock to make room for P'kal and train up to the location change of light/less lethal option. Not an issue, just a con worth noting.


I realize nobody here can/should tell anyone else what they should do, as it's a personal choice, but that doesn't mean we can't exchange our thoughts and reasoning behind our choices.

Thoughts?

Wondering Beard
11-14-2015, 04:39 PM
So, I've had the P'kal trainer for a day and while I definitely like it and will integrate it, I have a concern/question/quandary.

I watched Craig's video's on P'kal deployment and application overview, as noted previously in this thread. Cliff notes: The knife is deployed RGEI and held in the lead to be effectively used in what Craig calls, "a knife jab". I really like it, as the motion is intuitive and crosses over really well to other improvised weapons, which plays a role in my dilemma.

I'm a righty and naturally have an orthodox fighting stance. If I carry the P'kal my right pocket and deploy with my right hand, I'll need to stand southpaw to use it as designed. While I clearly prefer to hold the knife is my right (weapon/strong/whatever) hand, it feels completely awkward to stand southpaw to deliver the appropriate jabs.

My rational reaction to this is, switch to support side carry, and and deploy into my left hand. This is why...

1- All my real world experience, vast majority of MT training, and my natural knee-jerk reaction is into an orthodox stance and deliver jabs with my left hand. P-F is the wrong place for humble-bragging, so please don't take this the wrong way, as I'm just trying to make a point. I have successfully changed a few minds with my jab and thwarted a few full on altercations, so I have ZERO desire to remove this from my playbook. Historically, if given the choice, it's my lead in. So now that you know that, if we ever get into a tussle, I expect you to be honorable and not take advantage of that intel. :p Wait, we're talking about fighting, shit.
2- I appendix carry and feel that if I'm able to access the P'kal from the suggested inboard/forward pocket location and deploy it via the required motion, I should be able to access my firearm (inches away). No experience here, pure speculation, and I realize there are no certainties either way.
3- I'm still without a support hand lethal force option.
4- I currently carry a Surefire EB1 in the support side pocket. It's carried in the same inboard/forward location and deployed in the EXACT same grip/motion for striking which being familiar with the motion was the reasoning behind the P'kal purchase.

Cons:

1- Would need to slide the EB1 around to 9 o'clock to make room for P'kal and train up to the location change of light/less lethal option. Not an issue, just a con worth noting.


I realize nobody here can/should tell anyone else what they should do, as it's a personal choice, but that doesn't mean we can't exchange our thoughts and reasoning behind our choices.

Thoughts?

I have no inclination to change something that works in anyone but I have to ask: do you really need that starting stance in order to launch your jabs? if you don't, perhaps a bit more squarer stance might work for you still?

More important though: it seems you imagine having to "square off" against someone and draw your knife (maybe I'm misreading you and if so correct me), this is far from the most likely scenario. Imagine rather a situation in which you have just gained some space and time from a bad guy assaulting you and it just turned lethal, now you have to deploy your knife and that's a sort of "whatever position I'm in" kinda draw. Remember, the reason for deploying your knife, if you are already carrying your gun, is because the gun isn't the proper answer (too much of a clinch, too easy to take away whereas taking a knife away will result in the bad guy missing some fingers, your assailant is behind you and choking you and so on) but a knife in your more dexterous hand is.

What you saw in the videos is one version of immediate deployment and use of the Pikal but you don't have to limit it to that. My background in FMA also makes me want to get into a stance similar to what I think you describe because the live hand (empty hand) does so much work in that approach. So for me, I could use my live hand as cover for my face as I draw, or launch a jab to give me room and time to draw the knife then pivot the hips and launch the type of jab (more like a straight in this case) that you see in the video; or another possibility is to use your live hand to sort of pin the bad guy (grab his hair, or throat or push him onto a wall or what have you) and then launch multiple stabbing attacks to vulnerable areas. You have plenty of options.

The first thing though is get into the habit of getting the knife deployed ready to make a strike without necessarily having to launch one and one only type of strike. Square off, or go to your usual stance, deploy your knife and just bring it up to pecs level with the point out. The reason is that you have to get to know how your knife feels in the hand as you do this so that you instinctively know if your knife deployed correctly, where it is pointing at any point in that maneuver etc.. this is the time where you get to know your knife and how to bring it in use. In my practice, with a different waved knife though, I do it while seated, or close to a belly high kitchen counter, or while leaning against a wall, simply walking up or down the stairs; getting in the reps while in all sorts of positions can really help you get the knife out when your situation will be FUBAR.

Of course, you can work on all that from the weak hand too, but personally that type of knife best belongs on the strong side where you are more dexterous. That's just me though and YMMV.

JodyH
11-14-2015, 05:06 PM
2- I appendix carry and feel that if I'm able to access the P'kal from the suggested inboard/forward pocket location and deploy it via the required motion, I should be able to access my firearm (inches away). No experience here, pure speculation, and I realize there are no certainties either way.
3- I'm still without a support hand lethal force option.
Just because you can access something doesn't mean you can effectively deploy it.
The P'kal doesn't require nearly as much space, time or precision to deploy as a handgun.
With the P'kal you open it and use the sharp pointy end on your opponent.
With a handgun you have to have more space and time to orient the muzzle and not foul the action (out of battery).
It's also easier for your opponent to block, foul or divert a handgun away. With a knife the only part they can grab is the sharp end.

As to not having a lethal support hand option. That's where a solid grappling game comes in to tie up your opponent, free your dominant hand and give you the timing window to get at your tools.
You can also start carrying a second knife on your weak side but remember that the more you carry the more you have to defend.
It sucks to get stabbed with your own knife because you had too much gear to keep track of and defend.

Cecil Burch
11-14-2015, 05:27 PM
The most absolute, guaranteed way to find yourself taken to the ground when you don't want to be there is to have your training and skillset focus to be ranged striking. You WILL get taken down, nine times out of ten. Why? Because you don't ever learn to deal with the grappler. You know who gets to choose whether the fight stays standing or goes to the ground? The wrestler or BJJ player. Because they spend all their time dealing with that situation, they know how to deal with it. Spending all your time, especially in the beginning, on a stand up game that ignores grappling is a sure fire way to never learn how to stay on your feet, unless you hit a Hail Mary punch that is hard enough to knock someone out with a single blow. Good luck with that strategy.

And going to the ground and getting your head kicked in by their friend? Sure, IF you don't have any friends to watch your back and IF you aren't that good at grappling. The simple fact is that when a decent grappler takes a non-grappler down, the fight will not go on long enough for the friend to get involved. The grappler will KO, choke out, or break a limb of the other guy faster than anyone else can react. Go to any BJJ school in the country on an average night, and you will see the truth of that over and over again.

And, as a number of people have pointed out in this thread, the best way to make sure you can get a folder deployed in a fight is to be able to control the spatial relationship between you and the other person. Nothing does that better than grappling.

Let's approach this from another angle and think about it this way for a second. Let's say you are a martial artist and you want to make sure your gun disarm skills work, but you have never shot a pistol ever. So you realize you need to get some expert opinion on it. Who do you go to for advice? Do you find the national champion metal silhouette shooter to teach you how to deal with a fighting pistol context? Or do you go to a Tom Givens/Ernie Langdon/Kyle Lamb type, who shoots pistols in that context all the time, and has done so for decades? That is the same thing about trying to stay on your feet against someone who never has experienced the correct context.

StraitR
11-14-2015, 05:41 PM
I have no inclination to change something that works in anyone but I have to ask: do you really need that starting stance in order to launch your jabs? if you don't, perhaps a bit more squarer stance might work for you still?

More important though: it seems you imagine having to "square off" against someone and draw your knife (maybe I'm misreading you and if so correct me), this is far from the most likely scenario. Imagine rather a situation in which you have just gained some space and time from a bad guy assaulting you and it just turned lethal, now you have to deploy your knife and that's a sort of "whatever position I'm in" kinda draw. Remember, the reason for deploying your knife, if you are already carrying your gun, is because the gun isn't the proper answer (too much of a clinch, too easy to take away whereas taking a knife away will result in the bad guy missing some fingers, your assailant is behind you and choking you and so on) but a knife in your more dexterous hand is.

What you saw in the videos is one version of immediate deployment and use of the Pikal but you don't have to limit it to that. My background in FMA also makes me want to get into a stance similar to what I think you describe because the live hand (empty hand) does so much work in that approach. So for me, I could use my live hand as cover for my face as I draw, or launch a jab to give me room and time to draw the knife then pivot the hips and launch the type of jab (more like a straight in this case) that you see in the video; or another possibility is to use your live hand to sort of pin the bad guy (grab his hair, or throat or push him onto a wall or what have you) and then launch multiple stabbing attacks to vulnerable areas. You have plenty of options.

The first thing though is get into the habit of getting the knife deployed ready to make a strike without necessarily having to launch one and one only type of strike. Square off, or go to your usual stance, deploy your knife and just bring it up to pecs level with the point out. The reason is that you have to get to know how your knife feels in the hand as you do this so that you instinctively know if your knife deployed correctly, where it is pointing at any point in that maneuver etc.. this is the time where you get to know your knife and how to bring it in use. In my practice, with a different waved knife though, I do it while seated, or close to a belly high kitchen counter, or while leaning against a wall, simply walking up or down the stairs; getting in the reps while in all sorts of positions can really help you get the knife out when your situation will be FUBAR.

Of course, you can work on all that from the weak hand too, but personally that type of knife best belongs on the strong side where you are more dexterous. That's just me though and YMMV.


WB, after reading the first two paragraphs I realized right away I had a clear lack of vision, in other words, I don't know what I don't know. I watched Craig's videos and immediately (and happily) related what I saw to my own experience/training, which is as you suspected, squared up and striking. Being void of anything clinch or grappling based, I lacked the insight. What you said makes total sense and only reinforces my need to get some BJJ training. Much appreciated.

StraitR
11-14-2015, 05:46 PM
Just because you can access something doesn't mean you can effectively deploy it.
The P'kal doesn't require nearly as much space, time or precision to deploy as a handgun.
With the P'kal you open it and use the sharp pointy end on your opponent.
With a handgun you have to have more space and time to orient the muzzle and not foul the action (out of battery).
It's also easier for your opponent to block, foul or divert a handgun away. With a knife the only part they can grab is the sharp end.

As to not having a lethal support hand option. That's where a solid grappling game comes in to tie up your opponent, free your dominant hand and give you the timing window to get at your tools.
You can also start carrying a second knife on your weak side but remember that the more you carry the more you have to defend.
It sucks to get stabbed with your own knife because you had too much gear to keep track of and defend.

Great info, and also points to a gap in my H2H skills. Thanks (again) Jody.

ETA: Thank you, Cecil.

This thread has been quite educational, and clearly shows why anyone that carries a pistol and/or edge weapon should have at least some some basic BJJ skills. It's answered my questions completely, and I'm extremely appreciative.

Wondering Beard
11-14-2015, 06:01 PM
WB, after reading the first two paragraphs I realized right away I had a clear lack of vision, in other words, I don't know what I don't know. I watched Craig's videos and immediately (and happily) related what I saw to my own experience/training, which is as you suspected, squared up and striking. Being void of anything clinch or grappling based, I lacked the insight. What you said makes total sense and only reinforces my need to get some BJJ training. Much appreciated.

You're just starting to learn this stuff. Hell, I'm still learning and need to learn a lot more. I have very little striking game (some kickboxing years back) and my grappling is judo based which I haven't done in a long time, I should get some BJJ too :-) .

GAP
11-15-2015, 12:30 AM
Just wanted to clarify, I don't disagree with the guys who have trained in both styles and are proficient.
Without previously knowing your skill level of combatives, I recommend people learn stand up first, then get comfortable on the ground.
I have a very good friend who is a Gracie instructor and have trained with some excellent fighters over the years, none of them would ever deliberately want to go to the ground in a real world fight where you have a high likelihood of getting kicked in the head by another assailant or getting your head slammed into concrete. If however, you find yourself on the ground, you need the skills to win. We're not talking about MMA matches and gym workouts, this is fighting for your life and win at all cost scenarios.

I'd recommend the opposite. Everyone knows "basically" how to throw a punch and stab. Of course it won't be as polished as a boxer but it will be a punch and people don't square up for a fair fight in the street. Before or after that first punch is thrown the bigger of the two guys will engage in a wrestling match because his mind says, "I can over power him." If you don't know how to grapple you're f'd. If you know how to grapple you are much, much, much less likely f'd.

If you do not carry a firearm then yes, you'd want to be as well rounded as possible. But be careful not to spread yourself too thin.. That's often a mistake of MMA fighters. They just train six arts at once and aren't really all that great at any one or two of them.

For personal protection I'd go with proper firearms training and BJJ (or a dedicated self defense course that uses BJJ). Once you have a foundation to build upon then seak out a seminar for knife tactics. In other words, understand how to shrimp and retain guard from being mounted before complicating things.

2-3 classes per week for only a few months will make you ridiculously more effective vs a non-trained person on the ground. It's mind blowing and I wouldn't believe it if I didn't do it for so long.

As Cecil mentioned above, BJJ also teaches standing tactics. These include manipulating distances, throws, defense and offensive maneuvers.

I know it sounds strange but even with two or three guys jumping on me I'd still have the confidence and knowledge to aid me in coming out on top of the situation. It doesn't take long to choke someone out cold, only a few seconds... Would I be able to Jackie Chan them on my feet? Only if they were timid and folded when the first one goes down. If they came to fight they'd tackle me and try to swarm me, not square up and take turns.

Sorry, I'd need a book to answer this, so I just typed up a few random thoughts.

DI1
11-16-2015, 09:26 AM
I don't mean to derail this thread any further and maybe we should start a new discussion.

I agree with GAP and Cecil. However, I have personally witnessed the aftermath of a bar fight where a guy with a wrestling background took another guy down to the ground only to be kicked and stomped to death by the other guy's friends.

This is situational, and one technique or martial art will not be the answer to all. Having good stand up and or/BJJ background is extremely important in allowing distance, mobility and access to weapons. Not making poor life decisions is most important.

Back on track:
Jeff Gonzales of Trident Concepts had a folder specific class at one time. It was well thought ought and designed around carrying a folder on your support side. You may want to look at his schedule to see if he still offers the class.

JodyH
11-16-2015, 10:39 AM
That's why you don't deliberately take it to the ground. It's the takedown defenses you get from wrestling and BJJ that are the advantage.

NickA
11-16-2015, 10:58 AM
^^ tagging along with Jody, this was a point that came up the last time in Cecil's class.
"Going to the ground" depends on the situation, like everything else.
Getting taken down hard, or in a way that puts you on bottom or out of control, is probably bad.
Taking the opponent down, forcefully and/or with you ending on top and in control, is probably good.
Of course it also depends on other factors (what's the ground like, are there other people likely to jump in, etc), but it's worth considering before assuming ground = bad.

GAP
11-16-2015, 11:48 AM
Difference being "bar fight" and self defense. For a bar fight you'd be better off with Judo and pair of running shoes.

I get what you're saying though. Just different applications in my mind.

Cecil Burch
11-16-2015, 12:15 PM
I agree with GAP and Cecil. However, I have personally witnessed the aftermath of a bar fight where a guy with a wrestling background took another guy down to the ground only to be kicked and stomped to death by the other guy's friends.




I can also point to "bar fights" where a person kept it standing and was still beaten to death by multiples. I had a student who was a bouncer in a biker bar stabbed in the kidney and almost died. I could argue that if he had taken the fight to the floor, he might not have been stabbed, and it most certainly would not have been in the kidney. Anecdotes are useful. but only when taken in with the overall picture. I can provide documented evidence where going to the ground against multiples was a great tactic. One in particular kept a good cop from being stomped to death. The cop put his back to a tire and pulled the other guy on top of him in halfguard and none of the others could get to him long enough for back up to arrive. He will be the first one to tell you if he had stayed standing. he would have been killed, without a doubt.

I really object to the automatic assumption that staying upright against multiples is automatically a good choice, and/or easier to do. This ain't Billy Jack. The bad guys don't line up one at a time waiting for your attack. They pile on. A really good way of being taken down and put in a horrible situation is to go against multiples and have no real idea of how to use your hips and level changes to remain on your feet. I have yet to see a good stand up only gym/school teach realistic and functional ways of staying upright and mobile in that situation.

There is no legit BJJ gym on the planet that teaches you to arbitrarily go to the ground and then "lay and pray". If a BJJ player goes to the ground, it is always with a specific attack in mind, that generally is executed immediately. If you have no idea of how to defend that, you will lose to that attack. One of the mantras of BJJ is "Position before Submission". You can read that as complete positional control of the other person. That is why so many finishes in BJJ are so quick, because the other guy has no chance to stop it. That problem is multiplied when the other guy is already clueless about grappling.

My point is that it is contextual, and we need to make the proper tactical decision IN THE MOMENT. That decision making is easier if we already have the skill set, and have done the training. Dogmatically stating one side or the other ("always go to the ground" vs "never go to the ground") is foolish. We need to know how to do both, and we need to train it. There are no magic pills - no all purpose technique nor all purpose piece of hardware - that will take care of the issue for us.

DI1
11-16-2015, 01:26 PM
My point is that it is contextual, and we need to make the proper tactical decision IN THE MOMENT. That decision making is easier if we already have the skill set, and have done the training. Dogmatically stating one side or the other ("always go to the ground" vs "never go to the ground") is foolish. We need to know how to do both, and we need to train it. There are no magic pills - no all purpose technique nor all purpose piece of hardware - that will take care of the issue for us.

I think we are trying to say the same thing, please don't take this as a one style is better than an other. That has been argued for centuries. You need to be well rounded and have a skillset that will allow you to be a striker and be good on the ground as well. Most importantly as you have pointed out, is KNOWING which is appropriate at that given moment.

Rex G
11-18-2015, 09:53 AM
is the cheapest way to get into a pikal amazon?

On the Spyderco home forum, a Spyderco rep advises that Amazon's supply lines allow counterfeits to be sold as authentic, through the Amazon ordering system. (Amazon is not one monolithic entity, but quite decentralized, and yes, counterfeit knives are a quite evolved industry.) I have tended to order Spyderco blades through New Graham, and Knifeworks dot com.

UNK
12-13-2015, 09:05 AM
What about this knife?

https://www.facebook.com/TheDartKnife/

or

http://emersonknives.com/shop/karambit-the-knives/cqc-7-karambit/

There is a trainer for both

DI1
12-13-2015, 09:31 AM
What about this knife?

https://www.facebook.com/TheDartKnife/

or

http://emersonknives.com/shop/karambit-the-knives/cqc-7-karambit/

There is a trainer for both

Save your money and get a Spyderco Delica or Endura and a trainer.

UNK
12-13-2015, 10:39 AM
Can you elaborate a bit on your reasoning?


Save your money and get a Spyderco Delica or Endura and a trainer.

DI1
12-13-2015, 11:34 AM
Can you elaborate a bit on your reasoning?

Sure, the tanto style blade is sub optimal for any cutting task and is a pain to sharpen. I think I've mentioned this previously, but spear point type blades will penetrate better. I'm not a fan of karambits, they offer no benefit over a traditional knife, limit your ability to use them in other than reverse grip and are mostly a fad that seems to be finally dying off.

A waved or standard Spyderco Endura or Delica (non serrated) carried off side can be quickly deployed if practiced. Makes a good utility/defensive blade and will not raise many eyebrows if used for utility purposes in public.

Wondering Beard
12-13-2015, 01:29 PM
I think I've mentioned this previously, but spear point type blades will penetrate better. I'm not a fan of karambits, they offer no benefit over a traditional knife, limit your ability to use them in other than reverse grip and are mostly a fad that seems to be finally dying off.

Spear point blades won't necessarily penetrate better than a Tanto point, or vice-versa. It entirely depends on blade and edge geometry. Some single edge spear points are so wide that the non sharpened spine slows down the penetration enormously while a straight spine like seen on the HiTS makes penetration rather easy. Moreover, the Japanese tanto point, or smaller Kwaiken, are made for real easy penetration (a narrow double edge spear point is also). The American Tanto point without a straight spine all the way to the tip, like the Emerson being asked about, is not as good a penetrator as the classic Japanese Tanto, in my opinion; however compared to the leaf/spear point of the same knife, it penetrates more easily in my experience. Again, it's about blade/edge geometry of the particular knife rather than spear vs tanto vs whatever style of blade.

Btw, that Emerson, being a chisel grind (though on the 'wrong' side), i.e. sharp only on one side, is quite easy to resharpen. Somewhere on Emerson's website, he shows you how.

While the Karambit can make the most of its design in a reverse grip, it is very useable in a forward grip edge out. That type of knife was a fad for a while but it takes nothing away from its capabilities as knife; keep in mind that long before it was viewed as defensive knife, it had been an Indonesian utility knife for centuries.


A waved or standard Spyderco Endura or Delica (non serrated) carried off side can be quickly deployed if practiced. Makes a good utility/defensive blade and will not raise many eyebrows if used for utility purposes in public.

That is very true.

Wondering Beard
12-13-2015, 01:32 PM
What about this knife?

https://www.facebook.com/TheDartKnife/

or

http://emersonknives.com/shop/karambit-the-knives/cqc-7-karambit/

There is a trainer for both

I don't know any thing about the Dart but I have the drop point (or spear/leaf point) of the same knife by Emerson. It's a nice knife but I didn't find it did anything better than the more classic "parrot's beak" blade of the karambit.

SouthNarc
12-13-2015, 01:53 PM
Neither of those designs are really true kerambits in that they're both straight blades, not curved.

TGS
12-13-2015, 02:16 PM
A waved or standard Spyderco Endura or Delica (non serrated) carried off side can be quickly deployed if practiced.

Very much so.

That's completely separate from doing such under pressure, however. I really like mine, it's super cool......but I really don't have any expectation that it's going to work well in a FUT or even if I'm just trying to move.

DI1
12-13-2015, 02:29 PM
Spear point blades won't necessarily penetrate better than a Tanto point, or vice-versa. It entirely depends on blade and edge geometry. Some single edge spear points are so wide that the non sharpened spine slows down the penetration enormously while a straight spine like seen on the HiTS makes penetration rather easy. Moreover, the Japanese tanto point, or smaller Kwaiken, are made for real easy penetration (a narrow double edge spear point is also). The American Tanto point without a straight spine all the way to the tip, like the Emerson being asked about, is not as good a penetrator as the classic Japanese Tanto, in my opinion; however compared to the leaf/spear point of the same knife, it penetrates more easily in my experience. Again, it's about blade/edge geometry of the particular knife rather than spear vs tanto vs whatever style of blade.

Btw, that Emerson, being a chisel grind (though on the 'wrong' side), i.e. sharp only on one side, is quite easy to resharpen. Somewhere on Emerson's website, he shows you how.

While the Karambit can make the most of its design in a reverse grip, it is very useable in a forward grip edge out. That type of knife was a fad for a while but it takes nothing away from its capabilities as knife; keep in mind that long before it was viewed as defensive knife, it had been an Indonesian utility knife for centuries.



That is very true.

How many tanto shaped arrowheads have you seen? ;)
The Japanese traditional tanto and the Americanized tanto "geometric" point are very different.

I agree on spine being a determining factor here.
As you stated the grind on the Emerson is on the wrong side, chisel grinds again are not optimal.

The karambit was mainly used as a utility knife in Indonesia. The "tactical" karambit is a ridiculous fad that many makers jumped on to make money. Of course it CAN be put into service offensively, but so can a machete...

voodoo_man
12-13-2015, 02:59 PM
Just gana leave my $.02 here...

Pocket knives, specifically folding knives, are ineffective in a deadly force confrontation.

Pocket knives are supposed to be for utility. To cut stuff, to break glass (if have a glass breaker on them), to cut food/etc.

Yes it is a knife and being a knife it will work on people, but what type of knife works better and faster on people? A knife designed for people cutting and not utility, like a fixed blade.

I've seen people try to get knives out of their pockets during training (they were trainers). One guy had a cool looking emerson-style clip-deployment setup. When he started getting punched in the face and stabbed by his opponent he had a choice, either mess with the pocket knife or get stabbed/punched. Guess what setup failed him that day?

Going even further, how many reps do you have to burn to be able to not project your pocket folding knife draw into an effective hand position? It would be a pretty unique rep, wouldn't it? That would take a lot of time burning, time that you could be spending on something else, like training templates or other more important skill sets.

How many reps would it take for you to learn how to draw a fixed blade from your appendix area? Probably not many if you already carry appendix, it is pretty much the same draw stroke.

I've seen guys swear up and down that they can deploy their pocket folding knife as fast as I can deploy my fixed blade on or around my appendix position. That's great if you are just standing there, how many fights allow people to just stand there and access weapon systems?

Lastly, the blade is supposed to be faster than the gun. Faster deployment, faster contact, faster results, sometimes faster kills. It is deadly force after all, so why would you want to slow down your knife strike or knife deployment to the same speed of your pistol? Sort of counter-productive.

DI1
12-13-2015, 03:03 PM
Just gana leave my $.02 here...

Pocket knives, specifically folding knives, are ineffective in a deadly force confrontation.

Pocket knives are supposed to be for utility. To cut stuff, to break glass (if have a glass breaker on them), to cut food/etc.

Yes it is a knife and being a knife it will work on people, but what type of knife works better and faster on people? A knife designed for people cutting and not utility, like a fixed blade.

I've seen people try to get knives out of their pockets during training (they were trainers). One guy had a cool looking emerson-style clip-deployment setup. When he started getting punched in the face and stabbed by his opponent he had a choice, either mess with the pocket knife or get stabbed/punched. Guess what setup failed him that day?

Going even further, how many reps do you have to burn to be able to not project your pocket folding knife draw into an effective hand position? It would be a pretty unique rep, wouldn't it? That would take a lot of time burning, time that you could be spending on something else, like training templates or other more important skill sets.

How many reps would it take for you to learn how to draw a fixed blade from your appendix area? Probably not many if you already carry appendix, it is pretty much the same draw stroke.

I've seen guys swear up and down that they can deploy their pocket folding knife as fast as I can deploy my fixed blade on or around my appendix position. That's great if you are just standing there, how many fights allow people to just stand there and access weapon systems?

Lastly, the blade is supposed to be faster than the gun. Faster deployment, faster contact, faster results, sometimes faster kills. It is deadly force after all, so why would you want to slow down your knife strike or knife deployment to the same speed of your pistol? Sort of counter-productive.


100% agree with everything stated above!

Wondering Beard
12-13-2015, 03:10 PM
How many tanto shaped arrowheads have you seen? ;)
The Japanese traditional tanto and the Americanized tanto "geometric" point are very different.

I agree on spine being a determining factor here.
As you stated the grind on the Emerson is on the wrong side, chisel grinds again are not optimal.

The karambit was mainly used as a utility knife in Indonesia. The "tactical" karambit is a ridiculous fad that many makers jumped on to make money. Of course it CAN be put into service offensively, but so can a machete...

:-) I don't remember any arrowheads that were sharp on only one side ;-)

I'm not quite sure what brought about the American Tanto variation. More often than not, I just don't find it terribly useful (doesn't penetrate as well, doesn't slash or cut as well), still somehow on the HiTS most of those defects are cured, at least for me. The Japanese tanto, on the other hand, does not have those problems and being single edged does not run afoul of most laws.

I tend to prefer a classic flat ground blade for most utility work but I do find that the chisel grind on the HiTS to be quite useful for most everything I do with a knife. As Little Lebowski showed a while back on a hunting thread the Swedish grind (Convex grind variation I think) of the Mora knives worked great for him in those circumstances but haven't been good for me when trying to make a sandwich. It just depends on the use for the user.

The tactical karambit fad was ridiculous in so far that, as you say, so many makers got on the bandwagon without really understanding the design. However, the karambits designed by Steve Tarrani or Emerson work great for both utility and defense, even without being used in reverse grip (think of what you can do with a claw sticking straight out of your fist). Now if they made a machete that could be folded, put in the pocket and when drawn gets to go full size machete, I would be very interested :-)

EPF
12-13-2015, 06:10 PM
I've seen people try to get knives out of their pockets during training (they were trainers). One guy had a cool looking emerson-style clip-deployment setup. When he started getting punched in the face and stabbed by his opponent he had a choice, either mess with the pocket knife or get stabbed/punched. Guess what failed him that day?.

After I witnessed that in training, we were taught that going for a weapon while being dominated was the mistake :)

All joking aside, this topic is so situationally dependent that it's hard to give a fixed opinion on.

But I will say this: The idea that someone can draw a blade of any style, method of carry, or draw stroke and employ it in an attack stopping manner......all while being beaten and stabbed is highly suspect. Certainly easier with a fixed blade, but not much. And even then it turns into some sort of knife duel? No thanks.

To the OP: as others have noted, the answer to how effective a folding knife is as a weapon largely depends on your ability to fight. If you can't clinch, you probably can't clinch with a knife. If you can't get on your feet while an opponent is trying to hold you down, you probably can't do it with a knife. And so on. A knife really is a last resort weapon in a typical defensive situation. A knife is an advantage over bare hands but requires either luck and timing or training to employ. That why Mark Twain gave the nod to Colt rather than Bowie as the equalizer of men. :cool:

TDA
12-19-2015, 12:16 AM
Don't forget Twain's line:
"I was armed to the teeth with a pitiful little Smith & Wesson's seven-shooter, which carried a ball like a homopathic pill, and it took the whole seven to make a dose for an adult."
It's somewhat off topic, but it's just too good not to quote whenever the opportunity arises.

highready
12-23-2015, 09:14 PM
For what it's worth, I'll add to the discussion of the P'Kal. I love the idea and plan on getting one at some point mostly for the fact that there is a trainer too. But almost any waved folder in the opposite handed setup will deploy in the same manor. I've been carrying an Emerson El Bandito with a right hand pocket clip in my left pocket towards to center line just like the P'Kal folder for awhile. It deploys exactly the same and I use it in RGEI. Very pointy blade that is quick to get out. I used to carry a waved delica in my left side, but have found that the center oriented draw comes right up into a fighting stance rather than away from my body. I could swap the delica's pocket clip and I'm sure it would work the same as the Emerson, but the Emerson is working fine. I keep my ZT in my right pocket for cutting tasks (it would work fine in a fight if I needed it) and my Emerson in my left pocket for people tasks. Off duty, pistol rides at 1:00, mag rides at 11:00. I used to run a fixed blade TDI at 12:00 IWB too, but I decided to ditch it in favor of tucking my first aid kit in the same spot between the mag and pistol. On duty, I can't get at my right pocket, so defensive knife works great clipped on my left pocket and my cutter goes in my right cargo.

Sayoc01
10-17-2016, 04:49 PM
Take a Bram Frank seminar! I carry a Gunting as an EDC & a Karambit.If you are in NY the "best"guy to see is Jeff Chung!! Az.see Laci Szabo.In France Fred Perin.Don't know where SOUTHNARC is now located,haven't touched base with him in Yrs. S/N is top of the tier & a heck of a nice guy.I'm in Miami!
Jim

BillSWPA
02-06-2018, 10:23 PM
Bringing an old thread back up, an find that the Spyderco version of Emerson’s wave is significantly more reliable, and significantly gentler on clothing, than Emerson’s version or versions used by other makers.

Regarding locks, I like rocker bar locks, Benchmade Axis locks, or Spyderco ball bearing locks. I have seen liner locks from well-known makers fail. Frame locks do not work well for me, since I end up putting inward pressure on the lock while trying to open the knife. Bram Frank’s puzzle lock also has considerable merit, and is one of two locking mechanisms I have seen that self-compensates for wear.

Although I own a few nice fixed blades, I typically do not carry them. If I am carrying a gun, a fixed blade is less of a priority. If I am someplace where I cannot carry a gun, I am most likely someplace where a fixed blade is in a legal gray area at best, and quite likely is simply illegal.



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

PX4 Storm Tracker
02-11-2018, 12:06 PM
A search of PF turned up several threads about folders and/or defensive knives, but nothing on the specific application of folders as defensive knives, and outside of a post or two in those threads, nothing with any detail.

Admittedly, I've been a knife nut since I was a child. I have more than a few blades in the safe, ranging from little gas station knives received as well intentioned gifts up to CRK Sebenza's and Busse fixed blades. That said, lately I've been pondering why, aside from simple enjoyment, I carry a large(ish) folder when 9/10 times I reach past it for the SAK Cadet at the bottom of my pocket when things need cutting. So I thought about reversing some pocket clips and and putting them on my support side for a defensive tool. Then it dawned on me, I don't know the first thing about defensive knife use aside from what my lizard brain tells me and whether or not the folding blade I EDC everyday is anything more than pocket jewelry.

Given the amount of edged weapon SME's, official and unofficial, as well as the experienced membership here on PF to leverage both knowledge and experience from, can we lay out the truth on deploying folders as defensive tools?


Here are some of the questions I've been attempting to find answers to as they pertain to a defensive pocket folder. For an EDC blade, I have my own preferences, but they may or may not apply to a defensive folder. Feel free to copy/paste as a Q&A format if you feel like tackling them.

- Are folders a feasible defensive option one can train and become proficient with, or is this just something people like to talk about online?

- If so, are there notable trainers doing classes geared specifically for folders? I really want to take EWO, bad. Ok, really bad.

- How about blade specifics for the role?
-blade styles and their pros/cons
-blade length, is there a minimum

- What about deployment methods? Auto, Assisted, Waved, Flippers, Manual? Thumb disc vs stud vs hole?

- Locking mechanisms, important? Liner, Axis, Frame lock, Compression?

- Blade steel, does it matter?

- How is a defensive folder best carried? Strong side, support side, other?

- Brand/Model preferences? Who's carrying what, where, and why?

- Do you have firsthand experience deploying a folder in a defensive role? Are you willing to share?

- Did you stay in a Holiday Inn Express last night?

This is an excellent thread.
We do a lot of intense training with knives for self-defense. I consider the knife you have on you as your primary defense tool. Relying on firearms is not as versatile, sufficient or as applicable in urban situations.

This is a very good thread and enjoyable.

joshs
02-11-2018, 04:56 PM
While there is extensive information regarding your questions, the simple answer is that a fixed blade is far superior to a folder in every way other than concealment. If you can comfortably conceal a small fixed blade, you will be way better off.
If you absolutely have to carry a folder for some reason, a Spyderco Delica (waved or not) is hard to beat.

I still think this is very good advice. If you have to carry a folder, the Delica is very hard to beat. In every lock abuse test I've ever seen, it beats out knives that are substantially heavier, larger, and more expensive. Another bonus is that Spyderco produces a trainer for the Delica, so you can actually practice with your exact knife.

BillSWPA
02-12-2018, 04:31 PM
I still think this is very good advice. If you have to carry a folder, the Delica is very hard to beat. In every lock abuse test I've ever seen, it beats out knives that are substantially heavier, larger, and more expensive. Another bonus is that Spyderco produces a trainer for the Delica, so you can actually practice with your exact knife.

I particularly like the waved Delica because:

1). With a 2.9 inch blade, there are very few places I can’t carry it legally.

2). The grip fits my hand better than an Endura grip.

3). I have not come across a single folder that I can get open and in my hand as quickly and dependably as the waved Spyderco knives. The Spyderco version of the wave is orders of magnitude better than other versions. It is very noticeably faster than thumb opening, but the thumb hole is very well set up if I need to use it for any reason.

4). Unlike assisted opening, wave opening does not appear to come with any legal question marks in most places.

5) I have seen liner locks fail but not a rocker bar lock.

6) Since it is not designed for fighting, other legal question marks are removed.

7) With the tip-up blade against the back of my front pocket, there is zero chance of accidentally opening the knife, and either putting a hole in clothing or cutting myself while reaching in the pocket. I have done both with tip down carry.

8). It is relatively discreet when clipped to the top of a pocket. While I would not call it concealed, it avoids raising any eyebrows.



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Cool Breeze
02-12-2018, 04:41 PM
For a sub 3 inch folder it is hard to come up with anything better than a Delica for a "fighting" knife. Handle is very ergonomic and the thumb ramp and jimping are vastly better than the endura. I don't have any experience with the wave version but it also opens faster than an endura (at least for me) due to the balance of the blade. If I was going to go endura-like length (at the same-ish price), I would skip to the stretch with its faster deployment and better shaped handle.

If I wanted to go slightly higher end and/or more traction with g-10 handles.... The paramilitary 2 is my all time favorite folder. Super fast, super strong, better grip, and better steal. The para 3 looks interesting if I needed a smaller version but I don't have experience with it yet.

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BillSWPA
02-12-2018, 05:44 PM
While the benefits of a longer blade are obvious, I consider it secondary to other factors. In a non-wave-opening knife depending on a thumb hole, thumb stud, or disk, the positioning of the hole, stud, etc. on the blade relative to both the hand and to the pivot are critical for ease of opening the knife. For my medium sized hands, I find that a 3.5 inch blade is about perfect for consistent, reliable thumb opening, with a Benchmade Griptillian being a good example of ideal ergonomics. A 3 inch Mini-Griptillian and non-waved Spyderco Delica are very close seconds, and I believe the Cold Steel American Lawman is also very close to ideal for consistent, easy opening. For me, blades that approach 4 inches tend to place my hand in a less than ideal position to consistently and reliably engage the thumb-opening feature of hte blade. I am definitely more fumble prone with my 4" Cold Steel Recon 1 than with any of the above-mentioned knives.

Cool Breeze
02-12-2018, 06:16 PM
While the benefits of a longer blade are obvious, I consider it secondary to other factors. In a non-wave-opening knife depending on a thumb hole, thumb stud, or disk, the positioning of the hole, stud, etc. on the blade relative to both the hand and to the pivot are critical for ease of opening the knife. For my medium sized hands, I find that a 3.5 inch blade is about perfect for consistent, reliable thumb opening, with a Benchmade Griptillian being a good example of ideal ergonomics. A 3 inch Mini-Griptillian and non-waved Spyderco Delica are very close seconds, and I believe the Cold Steel American Lawman is also very close to ideal for consistent, easy opening. For me, blades that approach 4 inches tend to place my hand in a less than ideal position to consistently and reliably engage the thumb-opening feature of hte blade. I am definitely more fumble prone with my 4" Cold Steel Recon 1 than with any of the above-mentioned knives.Interesting. I never really thought of it as hand position... I thought of it more as length/balance of blade relative to pivot point and deployment style. That being said I agree with you and even before that I have come to the same conclusion.

Benchmade griptillian and my 940 osbourne are the fastest/easiest non-spring assisted manual folders I have experienced. It's the only knife I have flicked open that needs no wrist flick and can be opened with the position of the knife perfectly perpendicular to the ground. Though I don't think the design or the material has enough traction to consider them a viable fighting option.

With my cold steel recon 1, I have yet to be able to open consistently. It always opens like a half and inch and then the weight and/or the detent springs it back shut. The thumb positioning is awful too. That being said, once open it is a bad a** knife. When open, the handle and blade design are nice. The handle also has the most aggressive g-10 of any folder I have touched. The knife doesn't move in your hand.

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JodyH
02-12-2018, 06:41 PM
After I witnessed that in training, we were taught that going for a weapon while being dominated was the mistake
That it is.
"Position before submission" is a cardinal rule of grappling for a reason.

Cool Breeze
02-12-2018, 10:53 PM
Has anyone who carries waved knives had any accidental deployments in their pocket? I've been thinking about either getting a dedicated wave knife or adding zip ties to a spidey hole.

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Guerrero
02-12-2018, 11:22 PM
Has anyone who carries waved knives had any accidental deployments in their pocket? I've been thinking about either getting a dedicated wave knife or adding zip ties to a spidey hole.

Sent from my Moto G (4) using TapatalkNo accidental deployments, but I did have a couple less than complete deployments.

Lester Polfus
02-13-2018, 01:03 AM
No accidental deployments, but I did have a couple less than complete deployments.

I've been carrying a Griptillian with a zip tie through the thumb hole for over 10 years. I've had no accidental deployments, but as Guerrero said, some incomplete deployments.

I have found there is a very particular brand of zip tie that snugs up perfectly. The tab is big enough to catch on my pocket and and it tightens up enough not to rotate around on the thumb hole.

BehindBlueI's
02-13-2018, 01:54 AM
I consider the knife you have on you as your primary defense tool. Relying on firearms is not as versatile, sufficient or as applicable in urban situations.


I consider a knife what you use when you can't get to your gun to make space and opportunity so you can get to your gun. I'm not sure how "versatile" deadly force is, but my pistol (or rifle if I have time) remains my primary defensive tool and I found a firearm to be both sufficient and applicable to urban situations.

BillSWPA
02-13-2018, 06:51 AM
Has anyone who carries waved knives had any accidental deployments in their pocket? I've been thinking about either getting a dedicated wave knife or adding zip ties to a spidey hole.

Sent from my Moto G (4) using Tapatalk

If the knife is set up to draw into a forward grip and carried near the back edge of your front pocket, accidental opening in the pocket is impossible. It could happen if you are rem Inc the knife and do not intend to open it, but that is not a big deal.

I could see some possibility of accidently opening the knife when reaching into a pocket if it is set up for a draw into reverse grip, but in this case it should be near the forward edge of the front pocket, making this unlikely.

Keeping the lock and pivot properly lubricated and practicing reduces the likelihood of incomplete opening. Incomplete opening can often be quickly completed with a slight flick of the wrist.



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blues
02-13-2018, 10:11 AM
I consider a knife what you use when you can't get to your gun to make space and opportunity so you can get to your gun. I'm not sure how "versatile" deadly force is, but my pistol (or rifle if I have time) remains my primary defensive tool and I found a firearm to be both sufficient and applicable to urban situations.

I'd be more inclined, at least initially, to use the frame of my folding knife as a striking / impact weapon than I would an edged weapon.

That's just me. My neck knife or other fixed blade would be a different story if it ever came to such.

archangel
02-13-2018, 11:03 AM
Has anyone who carries waved knives had any accidental deployments in their pocket?

I'm no expert, but I do take my folding knives pretty seriously, since I live in Maryland and that's all I can carry. :mad:

I've been carrying a waved Delica every day for about 10 years. Carried in my right hand pocket (I'm right handed) set up to draw into reverse grip. In that time, I've had 3 accidental deployments.

My preference is to carry it against the front edge of the pocket of my jeans, like shown in the SouthNarc video earlier in this thread. Like that, it's virtually impossible to deploy accidentally. Sadly, I can't always wear jeans, so for the 4 days a week or so that I'm in dress pants, I have to carry it at the rear edge of the pocket. Since dress pants pockets are vertical, instead of angled like on jeans, the "front" edge is really the "top" edge, and it's just not practical to carry the knife there.

Since I'm set up to draw into reverse grip, wearing at the rear / bottom edge puts the wave opener toward the pocket. (less than ideal, but it's a limitation that I've accepted)

Two of my accidental deployments happened in dress pants. I failed to put my keys far enough into my pocket before letting them go, and the key ring caught on the wave opener. The knife opened about 1/2, maybe 3/4 of an inch. Noticed, corrected it, no drama.

The third was something of a freak accident. I was actually wearing jeans, and had the knife in the preferred position. But I was in a hurry, flustered, and trying to dig my car keys out from under the 2 other sets of keys that I had in my pocket that day. I somehow managed to get my hand between the knife and the front edge of the pocket, pushing the knife out of position enough that one of the key rings that I was jumbling around in the pocket was able to catch the wave opener. The knife opened about an inch, and I didn't notice right away. When I went back into the pocket later, still in a hurry and flustered, I managed to get my thumb on the wrong side of the knife handle, and got cut. Minor cut, slapped on a bandaid, and kept rolling.

I don't consider those occurrences to be a deterrent to me carrying a waved knife, nor do I think anyone else should. They were 3 very minor instances over the course of something like 50,000 hours of carrying the knife, and all due to me doing something that I shouldn't have done, or should have done differently.

The possibility of an accidental deployment can be mitigated by:
- wearing the knife with the wave opener toward the edge of the pocket, if possible
- keep the pocket empty of other stuff is possible (not possibly for me, I carry too much crap :P )
- If keys go in the pocket, consider something like a KeySmart instead of a ring that could snag the opener
- Accessing things in the pocket other than the knife is an administrative task. Go slow and be aware of where the knife is.




I've been thinking about either getting a dedicated wave knife or adding zip ties to a spidey hole.

Another option for diy waving a spyderco involves a little work with a dremel cut off wheel, but probably works better than a zip tie:

23780

That's a permanent solution if you already have a spidey you're willing to dedicate to it. If you're buying new, the waved Delica is worth every penny. If you're still undecided, the zip tie is a cheap way to try it out, with the caveat that it may not work as well as a dedicated wave opener.

PX4 Storm Tracker
02-13-2018, 02:36 PM
I consider a knife what you use when you can't get to your gun to make space and opportunity so you can get to your gun. I'm not sure how "versatile" deadly force is, but my pistol (or rifle if I have time) remains my primary defensive tool and I found a firearm to be both sufficient and applicable to urban situations.

Acknowledged

Chuck Whitlock
02-14-2018, 10:28 AM
I particularly like the waved Delica because:

1). With a 2.9 inch blade, there are very few places I can’t carry it legally.

2). The grip fits my hand better than an Endura grip.

3). I have not come across a single folder that I can get open and in my hand as quickly and dependably as the waved Spyderco knives. The Spyderco version of the wave is orders of magnitude better than other versions. It is very noticeably faster than thumb opening, but the thumb hole is very well set up if I need to use it for any reason.

4). Unlike assisted opening, wave opening does not appear to come with any legal question marks in most places.

5) I have seen liner locks fail but not a rocker bar lock.

6) Since it is not designed for fighting, other legal question marks are removed.

7) With the tip-up blade against the back of my front pocket, there is zero chance of accidentally opening the knife, and either putting a hole in clothing or cutting myself while reaching in the pocket. I have done both with tip down carry.

8). It is relatively discreet when clipped to the top of a pocket. While I would not call it concealed, it avoids raising any eyebrows.

I have found that the CRKT blades with the full cross-guard, set for tip-up carry, work like a wave opener.

https://www.amazon.com/CRKT-M16-Special-Forces/dp/B00AQ6C75E/ref=sr_1_8?s=sporting-goods&ie=UTF8&qid=1518620798&sr=1-8&keywords=crkt+m16

You can get some of the smaller versions for ~$20, but they don't allow for tip-up carry. Price seems to go up substantially to get that option.



I have found there is a very particular brand of zip tie that snugs up perfectly. The tab is big enough to catch on my pocket and and it tightens up enough not to rotate around on the thumb hole.

Do tell. I have a couple of Wal-Mart special Spyderco Natives that I had less than stellar success with the zip tie.

Chuck Whitlock
02-14-2018, 10:31 AM
Another option for diy waving a spyderco involves a little work with a dremel cut off wheel, but probably works better than a zip tie:

23780

That's a permanent solution if you already have a spidey you're willing to dedicate to it. If you're buying new, the waved Delica is worth every penny. If you're still undecided, the zip tie is a cheap way to try it out, with the caveat that it may not work as well as a dedicated wave opener.

I'm tempted to try that with my two Wally-World Natives, but I don't know how well it will work without the humpback.

Lester Polfus
02-14-2018, 11:43 AM
I have found that the CRKT blades with the full cross-guard, set for tip-up carry, work like a wave opener.

https://www.amazon.com/CRKT-M16-Special-Forces/dp/B00AQ6C75E/ref=sr_1_8?s=sporting-goods&ie=UTF8&qid=1518620798&sr=1-8&keywords=crkt+m16

You can get some of the smaller versions for ~$20, but they don't allow for tip-up carry. Price seems to go up substantially to get that option.



Do tell. I have a couple of Wal-Mart special Spyderco Natives that I had less than stellar success with the zip tie.

Well...

At some point I threw all the zip ties in the house into a big plastic tub. We have alot of zip ties. I have no idea what brand is my favorite, but I can root through the tub and find one when I need it.

I know that's spectacularly unhelpful, but I would say that experimenting with a few different sizes and brands is cheap, and in the end, you'll have extra zip ties...

Chuck Whitlock
02-14-2018, 11:47 AM
Well...

At some point I threw all the zip ties in the house into a big plastic tub. We have alot of zip ties. I have no idea what brand is my favorite, but I can root through the tub and find one when I need it.

I know that's spectacularly unhelpful, but I would say that experimenting with a few different sizes and brands is cheap, and in the end, you'll have extra zip ties...

I appreciate the quick response.

Duelist
02-14-2018, 05:00 PM
I don't think that would work with the Native. I'd have to steal it back from my wife to check, though, so someone else will have to test it b/c I'm not doing that. ;)

RevolverRob
02-15-2018, 11:44 AM
If folks want to "inexpensively" try out waved folders first hand.

The Kershaw-Emerson CQC4K - https://kershaw.kaiusaltd.com/knives/knife/cqc-4k <3.25" spearpoint blade
The Kershaw-Emerson CQC3k - https://kershaw.kaiusaltd.com/knives/knife/cqc-3k <2.75" tanto blade

Both can be setup for reverse draw and carry like a P'Kal folder. Both can be had for under 30 bucks. I find the CQC3k to be about ideal in terms of size and grip in reverse grip setup, but the 4K offers more purchase and easier draw stroke for those with larger hands. I have now given away four CQC4Ks to people and they find them quite useful. Pivots are tight initial and I find the knives should be disassembled and cleaned and oiled right out of the box. I sometimes carry the 3K when I feel I might need a "normal" knife for cutting chores. Rather than whip out the P'kal and make the natives at the watering hole restless.

Also, just to note - the P'Kal has a 2.95" long blade with a 2.78" edge length. It is, in fact, a bit shorter than a Delica in the handle, but it is wider.

KeeFus
07-13-2018, 05:57 AM
Opinions on this knife please.

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00Y3SD1GA/ref=ox_sc_act_title_5?smid=A3DWC57Y3CLBF3&psc=1

blues
07-13-2018, 08:07 AM
Opinions on this knife please.

Here's a review (https://bladereviews.com/emerson-sheepdog-review/). Scroll down the page that comes up.

And a google link (https://www.google.com/search?q=Emerson+Rangemaster+Sheepdog+BT+Flipper+K nife&rlz=1CAACAG_enUS581US581&source=lnms&tbm=vid&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjtl7vikpzcAhWPVt8KHXkIAPcQ_AUIDCgD&biw=1366&bih=667) to some videos.

Not familiar with that particular knife personally.

BobLoblaw
07-13-2018, 09:10 AM
Rangemaster Sheepdog? I really hope that’s a tongue in cheek deal.

Drang
07-13-2018, 10:11 AM
Rangemaster Sheepdog? I really hope that’s a tongue in cheek deal.

If you read the review blues linked to, it was a collaboration between Emerson and David Grossman, who is responsible for the whole "sheepdog" mess.
Myself, I find it ironic that Grossman has a company called "Sheepdog Knife and Gun", considering that he has made some less than approving statements about the "civilian" carry of firearms.

Hambo
07-13-2018, 03:16 PM
Opinions on this knife please.

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00Y3SD1GA/ref=ox_sc_act_title_5?smid=A3DWC57Y3CLBF3&psc=1

The Emersons I've owned have been good knives. I wouldn't buy a Grossman autograph model unless I really liked the design, which I don't. These days I have a lower threshold of pain concerning knives/guns that could end up in evidence, so if I wanted to carry an Emerson it would be a Kershaw version.

Totem Polar
07-13-2018, 03:19 PM
Judas H Priest, that’s a terrible name for a knife. Pass with gas.

KeeFus
07-13-2018, 06:38 PM
Aside from the name and its name sake, any opinions on the knife itself?

I’m also looking at different ZT knives.

Shoresy
07-13-2018, 06:41 PM
Aside from the name and its name sake, any opinions on the knife itself?

I’m also looking at different ZT knives.

I've been very happy with the ZT 0350s I've owned. One disappeared out of my luggage when flying a few years back. I replaced it with another and would do so again without a second thought if similar circumstances arose again.

blues
07-13-2018, 06:46 PM
I've been very happy with the ZT 0350s I've owned. One disappeared out of my luggage when flying a few years back. I replaced it with another and would do so again without a second thought if similar circumstances arose again.

I've got the ZT0550 and 0551 which I like quite a bit...and recently picked up a ZT0456. Very robust and well designed knives.

Clusterfrack
07-13-2018, 07:58 PM
I have an Emerson CQC7F that I like a lot.

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180714/d84fdc017a30918579b00b5f25340599.jpg

Clusterfrack
07-13-2018, 08:10 PM
... and a ZT 0620 Emerson (Elmax) that I like even better. On sale for $164...
https://www.amazon.com/Zero-Tolerance-ZT0620-BRK-Emerson-Tanto/dp/B00ILFL66S

28014

RevolverRob
07-14-2018, 03:52 PM
So, I love Emerson's and Ernest is a friend.

But if picking a knife for EDC where potential defensive use is high on the scale of selection criteria - the Spyderco P'Kal is the best choice. The ball-bearing lock is extremely strong and does not interfere with any grip style, unlike the liner/frame lock mechanisms used in Emersons.

For every day users, general utility, I love my various flavor Emersons and Kershaw-Emersons. Despite having half-a-dozen or so of them, the Spyderco P'Kal remains my go to folder for EDC. Rarely am I found without it, and if I am, it's likely because I flew someplace and took a Opinel in its place (to avoid running afoul of legal problems).

The only things I would change is to switch over to 154CM or CPM-154 steel in the P'kal, because I find S30V to be a pain to sharpen easily. And I would swap the silver pocket clip for a black one. Fortunately, the latter is available from Spyderco for a few bucks.

blues
07-14-2018, 03:58 PM
You need to up your sharpening tools, Rob. It's part of the fun. (Except when it isn't.)

RevolverRob
07-14-2018, 06:42 PM
You need to up your sharpening tools, Rob. It's part of the fun. (Except when it isn't.)

That's not actually untrue, I do need a better set of sharpening gear. I also find S30V tends to chip and get toothy around the edge more, where various flavors of ATS34/RWL34/CPM154/154CM will roll and thus I find those steels easier to fix. Because it never fails, that I will goof up an edge or tip somehow with a daily carried knife.

blues
07-14-2018, 06:48 PM
That's not actually untrue, I do need a better set of sharpening gear. I also find S30V tends to chip and get toothy around the edge more, where various flavors of ATS34/RWL34/CPM154/154CM will roll and thus I find those steels easier to fix. Because it never fails, that I will goof up an edge or tip somehow with a daily carried knife.

Diamonds followed by ceramic...or...Shapton Glass...or...Venev bonded diamond will all work well with S30V and the diamonds will work with all the higher Vanadium carbide steels like S110V, CPM-20CV, S90V etc etc

You can also use silicon carbide (Norton Crystolon) on S30V.

There are more than a few steels out there that will make you swear a blue streak absent the right hones. And sometimes even with.

ETA:

RevolverRob Here's a thread worth looking at (https://www.bladeforums.com/threads/what-to-use-to-sharpen-s30v.1589372/) on bladeforums specifically regarding sharpening S30V