Recommendations on New .40 pistol

[Flea]

I’m looking for recommendations on a new .40 cal pistol. To keep a long story short I have access to a TON for 40 ammo and it is “free” (job related).

A little bit of my background, I’ve been shooting an HK45c DA/SA for the last 5-6 years as my off duty/plainclothes with ~36,000 rounds through 3 guns, and I'm issued a G22 which I despise.

Primary use is off duty and occasional plainclothes. I do prefer hammer fired guns for this.

Thoughts and suggestions anyone?

[okie john]

Hard to go wrong with a P2000 or a USP Compact.


Okie John

[Le Français]

If the HK45c has been satisfactory, I suggest a P30 in .40 caliber. (One big difference for the DA/SA is the location of the decocker.)

[HCM]

I’m looking for recommendations on a new .40 cal pistol. To keep a long story short I have access to a TON for 40 ammo and it is “free” (job related).

A little bit of my background, I’ve been shooting an HK45c DA/SA for the last 5-6 years as my off duty/plainclothes with ~36,000 rounds through 3 guns, and I'm issued a G22 which I despise.

Primary use is off duty and occasional plainclothes. I do prefer hammer fired guns for this.

Thoughts and suggestions anyone?

The most durable hammer fired guns in 40 would be the SIGs and the HK USP or USP compact series. The P 30 and the P 30 L are also options however I had a P30 S in 40 caliber and found it to be kind of snappy compared to the USP. A 40 caliber 1911 or 2011 is also an option.

I believe the 40 caliber browning hi power is out of production but PF member JoninWA has good things to say about them.

[GardoneVT]

I’m looking for recommendations on a new .40 cal pistol. To keep a long story short I have access to a TON for 40 ammo and it is “free” (job related).

A little bit of my background, I’ve been shooting an HK45c DA/SA for the last 5-6 years as my off duty/plainclothes with ~36,000 rounds through 3 guns, and I'm issued a G22 which I despise.

Primary use is off duty and occasional plainclothes. I do prefer hammer fired guns for this.

Thoughts and suggestions anyone?

I'll ask one, and I don't mean to be a putz in doing so.

Why do you carry a different firearm operating system off duty then you do on duty? Since the G22 is your duty piece, that's be what I'd shoot in your shoes. Or a compact Glock in similar caliber.

I am of the personal belief that individual choice is secondary to duty gun use if your job requires it. Basically Being good at shooting What The Boss Makes You Carry >being good at what you'd want to carry but cannot.

[BehindBlueI's]

I'll ask one, and I don't mean to be a putz in doing so.

Why do you carry a different firearm operating system off duty then you do on duty? Since the G22 is your duty piece, that's be what I'd shoot in your shoes. Or a compact Glock in similar caliber.

I am of the personal belief that individual choice is secondary to duty gun use if your job requires it. Basically Being good at shooting What The Boss Makes You Carry >being good at what you'd want to carry but cannot.

At least for me, the only time I carry my issued gun is at inservice and 2 or 3 uniformed details a year. I carry my Sig every other duty day.

Anyway, I use the P229 and P226 for .40 launching.

[psalms144.1]

I'd go P2000, USPc, or Sig P229, probably in that order.

[Sero Sed Serio]

I'll ask one, and I don't mean to be a putz in doing so.

Why do you carry a different firearm operating system off duty then you do on duty? Since the G22 is your duty piece, that's be what I'd shoot in your shoes. Or a compact Glock in similar caliber.

I am of the personal belief that individual choice is secondary to duty gun use if your job requires it. Basically Being good at shooting What The Boss Makes You Carry >being good at what you'd want to carry but cannot.

I second this. As much as you hate the Glock (and I understand completely), if you ever need to use a gun to save your life or someone else's, it's almost a certainty that it's going to be your duty G22. If I were in your shoes, I would devote almost all of my pistol shooting to Glocks, and my vote would be for a Gen. 4 G23--it's not the best gun out there by far, but is the best gun given your specific situation.


The most durable hammer fired guns in 40 would be the SIGs and the HK USP or USP compact series.

If you don't go with the G23, this is your best bet. IRRC the 229 and USP were designed around the .40, then scaled down to other calibers. I've shot the USP Compact in 9, and am a big fan of the platform, although I haven't shot the .40. The 229 in .40 will not carry quite as well as the USP Compact, but it is a very pleasant gun to shoot, even in .40.

Good luck and stay safe!

[Nephrology]

What do you dislike about the glock?

I am very happy with my Glock 35, but if it doesn't float your boat, the HK USPc in .40 or the SIG P229 would be my two top choices.

edit - If you're willing to consider a striker fired pistol, a Smith and Wesson M&P 40 or M&P40c

[Beat Trash]

Considering you are coming from a HK45c, I would look hard at a HK USPc or maybe a HK P2000.

[5pins]

The Sig P229 and P226 are the only .40 cal guns I have ever really liked.

[Flea]

I'll ask one, and I don't mean to be a putz in doing so.

Why do you carry a different firearm operating system off duty then you do on duty? Since the G22 is your duty piece, that's be what I'd shoot in your shoes. Or a compact Glock in similar caliber.

I am of the personal belief that individual choice is secondary to duty gun use if your job requires it. Basically Being good at shooting What The Boss Makes You Carry >being good at what you'd want to carry but cannot.

I recently just switched jobs the new one determines what i carry in uniform.

My G22 has been less than stellar in the reliability department. Last week 400rd practice session. 5 double feeds, a stove pipe, 2 failure to eject, and one I cleared without thinking before I assessed!. All of which which are ignored by the amours and I'm told my gun is fine... This was with a clean gun and clean mags. I even replaces my issued mags hoping it was a mag related.

Things I don't like about the glock are the trigger guard chews up my knuckle, the slide bites me, and due to an injury I have trouble torquing my wrist over to get the sights on target.

I can live with those deficiencies IF the gun was reliable. That being said when the gun works I shoot it just fine. Nearly as good as my hk that i have far more experience on.


I was leaning towards a USPc I figured most of my skills would transfer. I'd be interested in hearing how Sigs hold up to .40 cal. If anyone has a high round count out there, have you noticed any issues?

[Nephrology]

I recently just switched jobs the new one determines what i carry in uniform.

My G22 has been less than stellar in the reliability department. Last week 400rd practice session. 5 double feeds, a stove pipe, 2 failure to eject, and one I cleared without thinking before I assessed!. All of which which are ignored by the amours and I'm told my gun is fine... This was with a clean gun and clean mags. I even replaces my issued mags hoping it was a mag related.

Things I don't like about the glock are the trigger guard chews up my knuckle, the slide bites me, and due to an injury I have trouble torquing my wrist over to get the sights on target.

I can live with those deficiencies IF the gun was reliable. That being said when the gun works I shoot it just fine. Nearly as good as my hk that i have far more experience on.


I was leaning towards a USPc I figured most of my skills would transfer. I'd be interested in hearing how Sigs hold up to .40 cal. If anyone has a high round count out there, have you noticed any issues?


Are you allowed to provide maintain/alter your gun or is that a no-go?

In addition to getting the newest Glock .40 mags (They should say 1633-03 at the bottom, under the Glock logo on the side with the witness holes), check to make sure you have the most up-to-date recoil assembly. Here is a guide straight from Glock -

http://www.gunsholstersandgear.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/09/Glock_Recall.jpg

If that doesn't fix it, I really am not sure what to tell you; but, I agree, you should not compromise on performance like that.

For what it's worth, I have a Gen 4 Glock 35 that is at just under 450 rounds with only one FTE, which was definitely an issue of my grip on the pistol (unexpected double tap with a light aftermarket trigger).

[HopetonBrown]

A Gen 4 Glock 22 with the beavertail to stop the slide bite and the trigger guard modified to eliminate Glock knuckle.

[BCL]

I'd be interested in hearing how Sigs hold up to .40 cal. If anyone has a high round count out there, have you noticed any issues?

I don't want to speak for him, but if IIRC, Surf had a .40 P226 that had about 300k through it. That's the only high round count .40 Sig I can think of off the top of my head.

[BehindBlueI's]

I recently just switched jobs the new one determines what i carry in uniform.

My G22 has been less than stellar in the reliability department. Last week 400rd practice session. 5 double feeds, a stove pipe, 2 failure to eject, and one I cleared without thinking before I assessed!. All of which which are ignored by the amours and I'm told my gun is fine... This was with a clean gun and clean mags. I even replaces my issued mags hoping it was a mag related.

Things I don't like about the glock are the trigger guard chews up my knuckle, the slide bites me, and due to an injury I have trouble torquing my wrist over to get the sights on target.

I can live with those deficiencies IF the gun was reliable. That being said when the gun works I shoot it just fine. Nearly as good as my hk that i have far more experience on.


I was leaning towards a USPc I figured most of my skills would transfer. I'd be interested in hearing how Sigs hold up to .40 cal. If anyone has a high round count out there, have you noticed any issues?

What generation 22 and do you have a weapon mounted light? When our department had Gen 3s, many of them had issues but only when a light was mounted.

I don't know what you consider 'high round count', but with proper lube they'll run a loooong time. Look up gray gun's write up on Sig lubrication, swap out the recoil spring as recommended, and it'll be a good gun for you.

[Sero Sed Serio]

I don't want to speak for him, but if IIRC, Surf had a .40 P226 that had about 300k through it. That's the only high round count .40 Sig I can think of off the top of my head.

If you're remembering that correctly, that really blows away my conceptions about the durability of aluminum frames...dat's a lot of boolits!

[Flea]

What generation 22 and do you have a weapon mounted light? When our department had Gen 3s, many of them had issues but only when a light was mounted.

I don't know what you consider 'high round count', but with proper lube they'll run a loooong time. Look up gray gun's write up on Sig lubrication, swap out the recoil spring as recommended, and it'll be a good gun for you.

Its a gen 4 G22 and I do run an x300 on the gun.


A Gen 4 Glock 22 with the beavertail to stop the slide bite and the trigger guard modified to eliminate Glock knuckle.

I'm not allowed to modify the gun. I asked about the beavertail and was told no. I'm not even allowed to change the RSA though that might accidentally happen.

[gtmtnbiker98]

The P2000 sucks in .40. Nothing, IMO handles the .40 better than the P229.

[Nephrology]

Its a gen 4 G22 and I do run an x300 on the gun.



I'm not allowed to modify the gun. I asked about the beavertail and was told no. I'm not even allowed to change the RSA though that might accidentally happen.

I would check the RSA. I run my Glock 35 with a Streamlight TLR-1 and have put most of my rounds downrange on it with the light installed, from 165gr FMJ to 165 and 180gr duty loads. 0 issues.

[Beat Trash]

Just out of curiosity, have your tried your Glock 22 without the light attached? Are the issues still there?

I still think you should look into a HK USPc. Although the Sig 229 might be something to consider.

[Hauptmann]

.40S&W in a Glock is quite uncomfortable to shoot. You really need a gun with some weight to it, and a traditional DA/SA helps to tame the recoil a tad more. I used a Sig P226 .40 on duty for many years, and it was an outstanding pistol as a whole. I you need something more compact, the Sig P229 makes for a lower profile pistol. The P239 .40 is about as small of a pistol on the market as you can get in .40, and still have it handle like a full sized gun.

[Flea]

Just out of curiosity, have your tried your Glock 22 without the light attached? Are the issues still there?

I still think you should look into a HK USPc. Although the Sig 229 might be something to consider.

I have not had a chance to shoot without the light. It had a tlr-1 when it was issued and it stayed that way until I switched to the x300. I will try and shoot without the light this week.

How does the USPc compare to the hk45c with grip circumference and trigger reach?
The hk45c is perfect for me with the medium back strap.

[Flea]

.40S&W in a Glock is quite uncomfortable to shoot.

I agree. I can shoot 500rds out of my .45 and I am fine. If I shoot 500rds out of my glock and im hurting the next day.

[LSP972]

I'll ask one, and I don't mean to be a putz in doing so.

Why do you carry a different firearm operating system off duty then you do on duty? Since the G22 is your duty piece, that's be what I'd shoot in your shoes. Or a compact Glock in similar caliber.

I am of the personal belief that individual choice is secondary to duty gun use if your job requires it. Basically Being good at shooting What The Boss Makes You Carry >being good at what you'd want to carry but cannot.

You know, much is made of this, and I used to subscribe to it totally… but as time goes by, I have come to realize that if one continues working and training, eventually he will come to a point where dissimilar actions just don't matter much anymore.

OP, I feel your pain… compared to HK, Glocks suck, period. But if you think about it, the HK LEM is pretty close to Glock-like, but with a hammer, better fit/finish, more panache, etc., etc.;)

I have been jumping back and forth between HK LEMs (mainly HK45C and USPc .40) and Glock 19s for almost five years now, as I dabble with the red-dot-sight-on-a-carry-pistol concept. The HK just doesn't do it for me there, for several reasons, but the G19 with an RDS in the right spot on the slide is perfect. I eventually decided against the idea, when two of my three optics puked within a week of each other. So the G19s went back in the safe and there they will stay unless needed again.

My point here is, I would carry/shoot one brand for a while, then switch everything over and carry/shoot the other brand. Other than the RDS enhancing my overall hit rate (its really like cheating; when someone perfects a concealable frame mount or a truly bullet-proof slide mounted optic, I'll be in again), I noted NO issues. I never forgot or fumbled mag releases, despite there being two distinctly different systems in play there.

What might trip you up is the need to decock if your HKs are DA/SA. The LEM is basically like a striker trigger; if you want to shoot, pull the trigger. If you don't, keep your finger off the trigger. Before anyone gets their knickers in a twist and takes me to task, yes, Virginia, I know there are nuances to both triggers that make them different. If you're concerned with your splits or whatever, that can matter. If you're shooting at moving meat for your life, I rather doubt you'll notice those differences. And both are true point'n'pull arrangements, which is what we want for that task.

There are lots of cops who must carry the company gun when in uniform, yet don't like same for whatever reasons. The lucky ones, like you, can carry something more preferable in mufti. Only you can determine if you are competent enough to switch horses back and forth at will.

FWIW, I agree with Hauptmann that Glocks in .40 S&W are among the most obnoxious-to-shoot pistols I have ever handled; particularly the G27 and G32, but I have zero use for the 22 or 35 either. I was issued, and made to use, a G35 for SWAT for several years. When I finally had to give that up due to health reasons, turning in that G35 was the only part of the process that did not make me sad.

OTOH, I have a USP Compact .40 that, while not exactly pleasant to shoot, is a ton less objectionable than most other .40 pistols I've fired. That delrin buffer on the RSA has a lot to do with that, I'll wager.

I also have a P2000 in .40 (two, in fact). While the P2000 is much closer in shape and ergonomics to your favored HK45C, the trigger reset is twice as long and can be annoying. Plus, if you prefer DA/SA the decocking button on those P-series pistols is simply bizarre, as far as I'm concerned. The USPc .40 will "shoot" more similar to the HK45C, especially in V1 trim.

.

[BehindBlueI's]

I have not had a chance to shoot without the light. It had a tlr-1 when it was issued and it stayed that way until I switched to the x300. I will try and shoot without the light this week.

How does the USPc compare to the hk45c with grip circumference and trigger reach?
The hk45c is perfect for me with the medium back strap.

I'd also try with the TLR-1. I suspect we may work for the same department. If Lt. D.T. runs the range, we do. The Gen 4s have ran great with the TLR-1 since we ditched the Gen 3s for not running right.

[HCM]

What do you dislike about the glock?

I am very happy with my Glock 35, but if it doesn't float your boat, the HK USPc in .40 or the SIG P229 would be my two top choices.

edit - If you're willing to consider a striker fired pistol, a Smith and Wesson M&P 40 or M&P40c

The OP specified a hammer fired gun. The Glock is not for every one. Even if you are a Glock Guy a Gen 4 35 is a MUCH better 40 than a 22 much less a 23. I agree with LSP 972 and Hauptman -the G23 and 27 are obnoxious to shoot.

[HCM]

Its a gen 4 G22 and I do run an x300 on the gun.



I'm not allowed to modify the gun. I asked about the beavertail and was told no. I'm not even allowed to change the RSA though that might accidentally happen.

Your range staff / armorers cant install the Glock factory beaver tail back strap - the one which comes as OEM equipment with every gen 4 Glock ?

You need to take that up with your POA / Union.check out Christine Hansen, et. al. vs. FBI. Its a federal MSPB admin case.

[HCM]

My agency issued HK USPC's for about 10 years - great guns. If you buy on older one. before 2003/2004 you might want to swap out the Firing pin for the current style as the old one are prone to breakage. Otherwise they are tanks, as are the full size USPs.

We've issued 40 cal P229's and 239's since 2005. I haven't seen super high round counts on individual guns but I have see A LOT of them. They run, as do the 226 40's. I've personally seen some other agency 229's in .357 SIG with round counts between 50 and 100K still going strong thanks to good preventive maintenance.

I thought the round count on Surf's 226 40 was 160k, which is still impressive.

[LSP972]

You need to take that up with your POA / Union.check out Christine Hansen, et. al. vs. FBI. Its a federal MSPB admin case.

That usually devolves into a win-the-battle/lose-the-war deal. There are things worth planting your flag and being branded a trouble-maker over; IMO, this isn't one of them.

Just sayin'…


.

[HCM]

That usually devolves into a win-the-battle/lose-the-war deal. There are things worth planting your flag and being branded a trouble-maker over; IMO, this isn't one of them.

Just sayin'…


.

Depends on your labor laws and how good / strong your union is.

[BehindBlueI's]

Your range staff / armorers cant install the Glock factory beaver tail back strap - the one which comes as OEM equipment with every gen 4 Glock ?

They can. That aftermarket doo-dicky that changes the grip angle and gives it more beavertail is an approved modification as well.

[LSP972]

Depends on your labor laws and how good / strong your union is.

True enough. But force that down the throat of an idiot rangemaster who is otherwise benevolent… and how likely is he to be helping you out down the road?

.

[Lon]

I have not had a chance to shoot without the light. It had a tlr-1 when it was issued and it stayed that way until I switched to the x300. I will try and shoot without the light this week.

I'd say that's your problem right there. The County guys on our SWAT Team had the same problems. Didn't go away til they switched back to the old m3 lights. No problems with their new G4 guns. Dayton PD had the same issues with there G3 .40 Glocks. They switched to 45 Glocks a few years ago, not sure if that had anything to do with the switch or not.

[HCM]

They can. That aftermarket doo-dicky that changes the grip angle and gives it more beavertail is an approved modification as well.

I thought that sounded a bit off. I can understand them not wanting you to do modifications, even minor ones yourself.

[Flea]

I thought that sounded a bit off. I can understand them not wanting you to do modifications, even minor ones yourself.

Just for clarification when I asked about the beaver tail I was informed it would be necessary to modify(cut) the hood on my holster and they did not want to do that right now. At which point, I was tired of going back and forth, so I just put some superglue on the cut grabbed a drink while it dried and then went on shooting. I assume the after market doo-dicky your referring to is a gripforce adapter? I have never used one. Anyone know if that would remain clear of an safariland holster hood?

[BehindBlueI's]

I assume the after market doo-dicky your referring to is a gripforce adapter? I have never used one. Anyone know if that would remain clear of an safariland holster hood?

Yeah, that's it. It did on my Gen 3. I was already plain clothes when they issued the Gen 4, so can't speak for sure on that.

[HCM]

True enough. But force that down the throat of an idiot rangemaster who is otherwise benevolent… and how likely is he to be helping you out down the road?

.

Idiots are never benevolent in positions of authority. Not every battle is worth fighting but we're not talking about authorizing personally owned 1911s here. We are talking about a factory OEM part which is included with every gun that goes out the door at Glock.

Like you, I've been a range master/firearms program manager.

If your range master is unwilling to let you use the factory parts that come with the gun either A) he is a lazy piece of crap who doesn't want to be bothered or B he is under the thumb of some ridiculous managers who don't want something as minor as a different backstrap to "Detract from uniformity".

In case you can't tell I've had plenty experience with the "A" type.

[HCM]

Just for clarification when I asked about the beaver tail I was informed it would be necessary to modify(cut) the hood on my holster and they did not want to do that right now. At which point, I was tired of going back and forth, so I just put some superglue on the cut grabbed a drink while it dried and then went on shooting. I assume the after market doo-dicky your referring to is a gripforce adapter? I have never used one. Anyone know if that would remain clear of an safariland holster hood?

ALS/SLS ? It might be worth a call to Safari land. There was a threat on this here a while back and loosening the tension block down by the trigger guard seemed to help the SLS hood issues.

https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?13736-Safariland-SLS-amp-Glock-Beavertails

[ffhounddog]

Just for clarification when I asked about the beaver tail I was informed it would be necessary to modify(cut) the hood on my holster and they did not want to do that right now. At which point, I was tired of going back and forth, so I just put some superglue on the cut grabbed a drink while it dried and then went on shooting. I assume the after market doo-dicky your referring to is a gripforce adapter? I have never used one. Anyone know if that would remain clear of an safariland holster hood?

If you want a Grip Force adaptor I have a spare larger in black one sitting here.

I will see where my short black one is but I am taking a tan one off of my gen3 22 due to it hurting my hand not by shotting but by grip. Some poly frames and a tad bigger than some for the same gun.

[GJM]

This summer, I carried a USP .45 in the field and a P2000 .40 in town. I also have a USP C .40. I think the P2000 carries better concealed than the USP C. I have had .40 P2000 pistols since they first came out, and never had a bit of trouble with them.

An advantage of a 226 or 229, is you can also get a 9mm caliber exchange kit, and shoot 9 and .40 with just one lower. I think the HK may have better consistent quality and the Sig is easier to shoot fast.

[LSP972]

In case you can't tell I've had plenty experience with the "A" type.

Yeah, me too; with both types.

.

[HCM]

If you want a Grip Force adaptor I have a spare larger in black one sitting here.

I will see where my short black one is but I am taking a tan one off of my gen3 22 due to it hurting my hand not by shotting but by grip. Some poly frames and a tad bigger than some for the same gun.

The GFA for the GEN 1.2 & 3 and the GEN 4 are slightly different- I don't believe they interchange. I have a GEN four version laying around here you can have if you want. I ran it for about a year and then switched to the factory Beavertail.

[HCM]

The P2000 sucks in .40. Nothing, IMO handles the .40 better than the P229.

I'll agree that the P226 and P 229 will be more pleasant and maybe even quicker to shoot in 40. The P2000 in 40 may be snappy but they are durable reliable and accurate. The US border patrol and customs and border protection and have been running P 2000s for over 10 years.for most of the time they've been using ridiculously hot 155 and 135 grain 40 Cal ammo They have over 40,000 of them in service. Please keep in mind, border patrol agents are like Marines, you could give them a bowling ball and they would break it.

[Jeep]

My view is that the P 229 and the M&P .40, which were both designed for the .40, are much less snappy than the G 22, and have far fewer problems. The P2000 in .40 seems to me to be in between the two.

As for the border patrol, I have read (but have no way of confirming) that it supposedly requires the P2000's to be exchanged for a new pistol after 10,000 rounds. If true, that might suggest some longevity issues with the P2000 in .40.

[JonInWA]

Interesting conundrum. First, the OP's issues with his issue Glock G22 are unacceptable, and should be immediately addressed by his departmental armorer; if satisfactory resolution cannot be immediately achieved, the Glock LE Rep should be contacted; in the interim, the OP's gun should be exchanged for another out of departmental stocks.

Over the years, I've owned and run a number of .40 pistols, including multiple SIG-Sauer P229s (both DA/SA and DAK), Sigpro 2340, Glock G22, G23, and G27, Steyr M40, Multiple FN/Browning Hi-Powers, and a Ruger P944. The only ones that I've kept are my FN Hi Power, and a newly received Glock Gen4 G22 (which I'm currently shooting with the standard connector and coil spring, and the medium-sized rear grip strap with the full beavertail.

Every time I've come close to pulling the trigger on an HK, a combination of their triggerpulls, price, potential difficulties in obtaining aftermarket OEM parts (including magazines) and service have precluded me from doing so. While objectively on a part-by-part comparison HK doubtlessly has ascendancy over Glock, Glocks are certainly "good enough" for me, and significant other individuals and organizations over time. While reputedly their service and parts issues have significantly diminished, frankly my overall satisfaction with Glock and my accumulated muscle memory on them really mitigates against any HK impulse purchase urges....

While I certainly enjoy my .40 FN Hi Power, it has enough shortcomings compared to more modern offerings to preclude me in good faith recommending it over most of the other platforms already discussed in this thread.

The Steyr M1 is interesting, but frankly is a bit of an outlier-and previous pistols designed by Willi Bubits have had some serious design and/or manufacturing flaws...

From an operational standpoint, I had no issues with any of my SIG P229s. However, eventually I came to consider them a bit heavy/bulky, and the one that I had with the DAK system I realized that to truly reap the benefits (and overcome it's disadvantages) I would need to make it my primary, if not for all practical purposes my sole) platform of use, which I was unwilling to do-for me, the juice didn't justify the squeeze.

However, the current SIG-Sauer Sigpro P2022 in .40 chambering might well be worthy of investigation. They've achieved a very solid reputation, and have been significantly fielded, with no critical weakness reported in my experience. I consider them to be at least as durable as the P229, a bit lighter, and significantly less expensive. The do have a relatively high bore axis, and the 2 grips may or may not provide an amicable fit-both of these factors suggest that you try before committing.

My Glock Gen4 G22 is less than a month old, and I haven't accumulated a significant round count on it yet. So far, all is going swimmingly with it. I'm running mine with the standard connector/coil spring, a OEM Glock extended slide release, the medium beavertail rear backstrap and steel Glock sights. My logic for going with the medium beavertail gripstrap is that 1) It then sizes similarly to my other Gen 3 Glocks, and 2) I'm thinking it might provide a superior amount of grip leverage to overcome the more intensive/quick .40 cartridge's pressure spike.

Another very viable contender might well be the HK VP40, or P30/P30L-albit with some of my previously mentioned HK trepidation.

And...another just popped into my mind-The CZ P07 and/or P09. A close friend of mine, who's a sheriff's deputy (and uses an issued Glock G17 on the job) has been exceptionally pleased with both the P07 and P09; he and his significant other are very successfully fielding P09s in IDPA and USPSA. And both platforms come with decocker and manual safety options.

Best, Jon

[HCM]

My view is that the P 229 and the M&P .40, which were both designed for the .40, are much less snappy than the G 22, and have far fewer problems. The P2000 in .40 seems to me to be in between the two.

As for the border patrol, I have read (but have no way of confirming) that it supposedly requires the P2000's to be exchanged for a new pistol after 10,000 rounds. If true, that might suggest some longevity issues with the P2000 in .40.

The M&P is the softest shooting 40 I've ever shot but the OP was specifically asking about hammer fired guns. The P2000 is certainly not unbearable. The worst kicking 40 I've shot was the P 30S V3.

Re: the 10k service life -They have been doing that since the 40 caliber Beretta's in the 1990s. We do the same thing with our SIG P229's. It is not at all an indication of longevity issues.

The P2000, P 2000 SK and USP compact were the only guns other then the SIG P series which passed the 2004 10,000 round DHS testing in all 3 calibers: 9mm, 357sig and 40 / 155 grain.

There are a couple things at work here. The guns in prior INS/border patrol testing in the 1990's and the last round of DHS testing in 2004 are tested to 10,000 rounds. It's not that the guns won't go more it's simply what they are guaranteed for. Another factor is ammunition choice. For years INS, the border patrol and other DHS entities used very hot (+P+) 155 grain 40. The border patrol subsequently went to even hotter 135 grain 40. The guns are sent back at 10,000 rounds because they are normally not getting any preventive maintenance (PM) or recoil spring changes during that 10,000 round life.

It's kind of like having a car that will go 300,000 miles if you change the oil oil regularly but it's guaranteed to go at least 10,000 miles even if you don't ever change the oil. We used to get little green logbooks for tracking round counts on guns. I believe the air marshals still do this but the rest of DHS has dropped this requirement. The air marshals track round counts and do all recommended preventive maintenance. They are regularly running SIG P229's in 357 TO 100,000 rounds or more.


The other thing with the 10,000 round service life is administrative. You have over 40,000 border patrol agents and the CBP officers spread out in hundreds of locations around the country. Some larger offices will have full-time firearms guys and armorers but many smaller offices will not. At the price the government is paying for these guns it is cheaper to simply replace them every 10,000 rounds than go through the administrative hassle of trying to ensure the guns are properly inspected and PM'ed and avoid the liability associated with a worn or broken gun slipping through and not working when it needs to.

[Gadfly]

At the price the government is paying for these guns it is cheaper to simply replace them every 10,000 rounds than go through the administrative hassle of trying to ensure the guns are properly inspected and PM'ed and avoid the liability associated with a worn or broken gun slipping through and not working when it needs to.

Our office may be the exception, but I am still doing the requiered annual armorers inspection of EVERY gun assigned to the office. Two years ago, we managed to get new recoil springs for all the Sigs. We finally got our Glocks sent back to Altoona for an overhaul of all new springs, extractors, and night sights. I recently got new extractor springs and inserts for our M4s when I realized they had not been replaced since 2004. I would hope all the other offices are doing their PM, but I will not hold my breath.

Every year we find one or two guns out of about 350 that should not be on the street for some reason.

Most common problem with our .40s?? Take down catch on the Sigs breaks. Like about 40-50% of them have broken over the past decade. The lever comes loose from the cylindrical catch and freely swings. It will not allow the user to get gun to come apart, and in extreme cases it has rotated under recoil, and locked up the slide. Overall, I think the Sig 229s in .40 run well. No major reliability issues, and what few issues we do see are from people who have never heard of cleaning or lube. Even the take down catch is not a major issue, as you can feel it loosening up before it gets to the point of being a problem IF you are cleaning your gun every now and then. If you never take apart the gun, that part can keep getting worse little by little, and you wont know until it locks up the gun.

I had an M&P .40. To me they are "meh". It ran fine, I just short stroked the trigger because the reset was totally mush. Newer models have cured this.

[LSP972]

As for the border patrol, I have read (but have no way of confirming) that it supposedly requires the P2000's to be exchanged for a new pistol after 10,000 rounds. If true, that might suggest some longevity issues with the P2000 in .40.

Aside from that celebrated photo of the result of an agent taking a header off of his ATV and busting his frame into two pieces, the only longevity issues with the P2000 in that agency have been rusting trigger bar plungers in their maritime division guns (fixed by making that part out of stainless), and that uber-hot ammunition HCM mentioned. They were getting some felony slide cracks from that stuff, agency-wide.

.

[HCM]

The trigger on the newer M & P is better but the apex kit is still worth the money.

You and I are the exception re:PM.

We also swapped out all of our P229 recoil Springs two years ago and we have also seen the broken take down levers. I believe the two are related.

Even when the lever breaks off the barrel/body the gun still functions, it's just a pain to re holster.

Even though the guns passed 10,000 round testing SIG recommends recoil spring changes at 3000 to 5000 rounds for the 40 and 357 caliber guns. Most of our guns were between 7000 and 8000 rounds when we changed the recoil springs. We haven't had a single broken take down lever since we changed the springs.

The switch from 155 grain ammunition to 180 grain helped too.

We've been swapping out our unknown round count 14.5 inch M4's for new 11.5 inch rebuilds. The new one I got a few months ago is built on an M-16 A1 lower.

[psalms144.1]

...and that uber-hot ammunition HCM mentioned. They were getting some felony slide cracks from that stuff, agency-wide..Yeah, about that. Thanks DHS - we're using the same ammunition (we buy our Sigs off the USCG contract). I've never met a combination I like LESS than our issued 155 gr JHP and the G27, or G23. It's not much fun on a long range session.

We haven't had any spontaneous pistol disassemblies with our 40s, but I have an entire generation of shooters with BAD anticipation issues...

[MD7305]

What's the reasoning for the 135 or 155 grain ammo? Does it have some sort of advantage over 165 or 180 grain in certain circumstances?

Over the past 8 years I've mainly stayed with 40s to remain consistent with PD ammo supply. I've had a USPc, P2000, P30, P30L, Glocks 22, 23, 27, 35, (gen.3&4) an M&Pf, and a bunch of 229s. By far my favorite to shoot is the 229, it just seemed to handle the cartridge well. I've been witness to 30 poorly PMed 229s go almost 15 years with few issues, I'm a huge fan of the 229. My least favorite of the group was the P30, too snappy as others have said. Given you have a HK45c I'd go with a USPc or a 229. I'm a Glock fan but I cannot deny that other platforms are better in 40.

[HCM]

What's the reasoning for the 135 or 155 grain ammo? Does it have some sort of advantage over 165 or 180 grain in certain circumstances?

That came out of the border patrol and the old 357 magnum 125 grain JHP / "velocity is the key to stopping power" school. Plus Macho.

I believe all DHS components have now switched to the 180 grain HST. It's easier on the shooters and much easier on the guns.

[Kevin B.]

I shot a bunch of DHS 135-grain .40 when I did some training with them. I did not think it was hot at all. Pretty accurate, as I recall.

That said, I prefer 180-grain HST in .40.

[Gadfly]

What's the reasoning for the 135 or 155 grain ammo? Does it have some sort of advantage over 165 or 180 grain in certain circumstances?.

This is the legend I was told... Is it true? cant say, but it was told by our Armorer instructor. He was a squared away guy who I assume had no reason to lie.

I was told back at my first armorers school, That the INS/BP knew times were changing in the early 90s, and they began to authorized personal purchase autoloaders, as NFU set out to find the perfect auto pistol. The Border Patrol hierarchy loved their .357 and did not want to sacrifice "power" for capacity. They wanted an autoloader that doubled the capacity at least (12 rounds) AND was as ballisticly similar as possible to the 158 gr load the issued. The had 25+ years of good results with that load and wanted to keep it. They also wanted a round that reached out to 100 yards and still had "some thump left in it", and that did not require some wild hold over to use. BP regularly qualified out to 50 yards, and would shoot (un scored) out to 100 yards.

So, in 1995 the request went out for the ammo first, then for a gun that would handle a steady diet. After trying 9mm +p+, .40, 10mm, and .45+p, they settled on the .40 in 155 gr at around 1200fps as the closet they could get to a .357 in 158 gr at around 1250 fps. They even explained the barrel pressure on firing both rounds was near identical, and velocity and drop at 100 yards was not exact, but close enough. In 1996, testing was done for a pistol, and the Sig 229 DAO and Beretta 96D Brigadier passed, but Beretta offered a cheaper bid.

It seems we were married to this round for close to 20 years, as we are now looking to go to 9mm 124 +p JHP for all our issued pistols. As mentioned, a few years back we switched to 180 gr ammo to lesson the beating on the gun and on the shooter.

Like I said, I can not swear that is how it went, but it sounds plausible.

[5pins]

Like others have pointed out the 10,000 round service life was a contract requirement. The P2000 is capable or much more. However word has gotten out that PA’s should turn in their P2000’s at the 10K mark. Part of the problem is there is no way to track round count and preventive maintenance is lacking to say the least.

When a P2000 comes to Harpers Ferry it will either set aside for rebuild, turned into a blue, red, or yellow gun or be destroyed depending or condition.

[5pins]

This is the legend I was told... Is it true? cant say, but it was told by our Armorer instructor. He was a squared away guy who I assume had no reason to lie.

I was told back at my first armorers school, That the INS/BP knew times were changing in the early 90s, and they began to authorized personal purchase autoloaders, as NFU set out to find the perfect auto pistol. The Border Patrol hierarchy loved their .357 and did not want to sacrifice "power" for capacity. They wanted an autoloader that doubled the capacity at least (12 rounds) AND was as ballisticly similar as possible to the 158 gr load the issued. The had 25+ years of good results with that load and wanted to keep it. They also wanted a round that reached out to 100 yards and still had "some thump left in it", and that did not require some wild hold over to use. BP regularly qualified out to 50 yards, and would shoot (un scored) out to 100 yards.

So, in 1995 the request went out for the ammo first, then for a gun that would handle a steady diet. After trying 9mm +p+, .40, 10mm, and .45+p, they settled on the .40 in 155 gr at around 1200fps as the closet they could get to a .357 in 158 gr at around 1250 fps. They even explained the barrel pressure on firing both rounds was near identical, and velocity and drop at 100 yards was not exact, but close enough. In 1996, testing was done for a pistol, and the Sig 229 DAO and Beretta 96D Brigadier passed, but Beretta offered a cheaper bid.

It seems we were married to this round for close to 20 years, as we are now looking to go to 9mm 124 +p JHP for all our issued pistols. As mentioned, a few years back we switched to 180 gr ammo to lesson the beating on the gun and on the shooter.

Like I said, I can not swear that is how it went, but it sounds plausible.

Even now with the impending adoption of the 9MM a lot of agents don’t want to up the “power” of the .40.

[TGS]

Back to the original question.....

The only .40 I could ever stand shooting was the P229 and P226, so those are my recommendations if you're not willing to use a SFA.

[cheby]

What do you think about CZs in .40SW? I had a chance to shoot a stock P-06 the other day and was surprised by how shootable it was compared to my G22

[LSP972]

When a P2000 comes to Harpers Ferry it will either set aside for rebuild, turned into a blue, red, or yellow gun or be destroyed depending or condition.

Okay; I know what blue and red guns are. WTF is a yellow gun for???

.

[TGS]

Okay; I know what blue and red guns are. WTF is a yellow gun for???

.

My guess is LaserShot systems, which use decommissioned firearms.

[5pins]

My guess is LaserShot systems, which use decommissioned firearms.


Its for the Virtra simulators.

http://www.virtra.com/

[BehindBlueI's]

OP, I've got a P226 and P229 in .40. I *generally* make it to open shoot on Friday mornings around 10am. You are welcome to try them out. I'm the guy with a black "Team Hornady" range bag and green ear pro shooting Sigs or revolvers.

[LSP972]

Its for the Virtra simulators.

http://www.virtra.com/

Ah... FATS redux. Interesting.

Thanks.

.

[GJM]

This thread caused me to pull out and, just before dark, shoot my 229 DAK in .40. Interesting, that the .40 feels like a good pairing with DAK, as the shot to shot time is slower for me with the .40, and that extra time allows me to keep up with the DAK trigger. Comfortable shooting .40!

That said, for those that think a P2000 in .40 is unpleasant, refer to that Nyeti line on "harden the f... up." :)

[gtmtnbiker98]

That said, for those that think a P2000 in .40 is unpleasant, refer to that Nyeti line on "harden the f... up." :)

Where's the middle finger emoji at, when I need it? lol

[Hauptmann]

To the OP. Any chance you can just bump up to .45acp? In most pistol makes I shoot the .45 better than I do their .40 counterparts, as do most of the officers that I have trained on those platforms.

[GJM]

Where's the middle finger emoji at, when I need it? lol

You could just "like" my post. :)

[Nephrology]

To the OP. Any chance you can just bump up to .45acp? In most pistol makes I shoot the .45 better than I do their .40 counterparts, as do most of the officers that I have trained on those platforms.

Free ammo is hard to turn down. I certainly would not.

[Hauptmann]

Free ammo is hard to turn down. I certainly would not.

Free is good. What you can shoot best with and gives you the best combat advantage for your needs is better.

[psalms144.1]

Free is good. What you can shoot best with and gives you the best combat advantage for your needs is better.+1 for me. In my case, for a large number of reasons, I've selected 9mm as my duty carry of choice. For a variety of reasons beyond my control, getting 9mm practice ammunition through my agency has been an enormous PITA for the last couple of years. Conversely, I have .40 S&W "mirrors" of my primary 9mm pistols, and I can't swing a dead cat without hitting .40 S&W ammo lying around. But, all that I get out of shooting my .40 S&W "mirror" guns is sore joints and a tendency to flinch. No amount of "free" ammo is going to be helpful to me...

More dry fire and the judicious use of personally procured training ammunition have been the ticket for me to maintain my skills at a minimally acceptable level.

ETA - yes, I know I should just "harden the f*** up," but aging is a horrible thing...

[Jeep]

"Flinch" sounds so . . . judgmental. I call it, "prematurely anticipating the recoil in order to get the second shot off faster." I'll take any excuse to avoid admitting that I'm actually getting older.

I do think that .40 cal is good for breaking up the arthritis in one's hands, though. Enough rounds and I no longer notice the arthritis--I just notice the pain from the .40.

[GJM]

Just to clarify, I wasn't saying .40 was fun to shoot, only that the difference between a Sig and HK in .40 is so slight, that the Bolke slogan applies.

[Patrin]

HK VP 40...pussy cat for a .40...like a 9mm NATO round.

[LSP972]

I'll take any excuse to avoid admitting that I'm actually getting older.



I tried that for a while. It catches up with you.

You should revel in becoming a "seasoned citizen". Embrace it; rejoice that you made it this far.:D

.

[SamAdams]

HK VP 40...pussy cat for a .40...like a 9mm NATO round.

Thank you for your review of the VP pistols, it encouraged me to take a hard look at them. I was looking for a fullsize 40 for oudoors use and as another hedge against possible future ammo panics. (I only have one other 40, a pre-Cohen P239.) I looked at a M&P and just didnt warm up to it, terrible trigger & I guess you have to buy the Apex to improve that. I just wasn't impressed by that pistol. So, I bought a VP40 a few days ago and I really like it. I only switched to striker fired pistols 5 years ago. I have many more years carrying and shooting a 1911. Finally, I've found a striker trigger that I like, rather than just tolerate. In a way, it reminds me of a 1911 trigger with take up. Nice, crisp break. Your view of it probably depends on what youre used to shooting. - - In my local area VP9s are mostly unobtanium right now. But, I'll definitely be keeping an eye out for a reasonably priced VP9. Maybe supply will improvenext year. (There's only one shop locally with a VP9 and they have it priced at $800 for the version with no night sights and only 2 mags. No thanks.)

[LSP552]

Just to clarify, I wasn't saying .40 was fun to shoot, only that the difference between a Sig and HK in .40 is so slight, that the Bolke slogan applies.

Have you ever worked with a 226 or 229 .40 and hard cast? With the reliability issues with Glock 10MMs, wondering if the SIG 40 might be something to play with for my next AK trip?

[Patrin]

Thank you for your review of the VP pistols, it encouraged me to take a hard look at them. Nice, crisp break. Your view of it probably depends on what youre used to shooting. - - In my local area VP9s are mostly unobtanium right now. But, I'll definitely be keeping an eye out for a reasonably priced VP9.

Sam Adams, my man...and my beer...no problem, bud.

My view is the same and I like the VP40 so much, I'm thinking of picking a 2nd as a spare...or a 4th VP9...something about the VP40, yeah, a bit more recoil, but hot dang, does it shoot flat.

Glad you bought one, good to support a company offering a very good product.

[Flea]

OP, I've got a P226 and P229 in .40. I *generally* make it to open shoot on Friday mornings around 10am. You are welcome to try them out. I'm the guy with a black "Team Hornady" range bag and green ear pro shooting Sigs or revolvers.

Fantastic. I'll look for you next time I'm out there.


To the OP. Any chance you can just bump up to .45acp? In most pistol makes I shoot the .45 better than I do their .40 counterparts, as do most of the officers that I have trained on those platforms.

I've been carry a .45 for a few years. I'll likely continue to carry it in the interim as I'm already qualified on it.

[Mr_White]

You could just "like" my post. :)

Who is pandering for likes now? Lol.

[Sammy1]

I'm in the exact same boat as you and I purchased an M&P40 police trade in from bud's. I would also recommend the PX if you don't mind DA/SA.