James Yeager VS Instructor Zero

[Chance]

Unfortunately, that wasn't the setup to a joke. They're in a YouTube fight.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xIFjadl8bYk

And Zero's response.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hOsvWFlUtNM

Yeager responded, and ominously called him out, as Yeager is wont to do.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BeUYZz8Qbso

I was going to get popcorn over the ISIS vs AQAP Twitter battle (https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2015/11/02/the-dispute-between-al-qaeda-and-the-islamic-state-has-devolved-to-name-calling/), but this is funnier.

[Tamara]

Let the tactical multicam manpurse swinging begin!

[ubervic]

My desire to watch all of these and laugh out loud is tempered only by my refusal to help advance larger numbers of clicks/views.

[JodyH]

Go Fonzie go!
4199

[JHC]

How many jumps does that nasty leg Yeager have? All my chips are on Zero.





Edit: I only have 5 school jumps. Cherry! Lol

[Tamara]

All I know is, with the way he keeps threatening to beat up the internet, Jimmy must need to keep his lawyer on danger pay. :eek:

[Kyle Reese]

The Internet is serious bidniz.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[RevolverRob]

No, I really thought today was a good day...but clearly the stupidity available in the world has demonstrated this isn't true.

I'm gonna go drink some whiskey and pretend like the sun didn't set at 4:45 this afternoon.

-Rob

[Tamara]

I'm gonna go drink some whiskey and pretend like the sun didn't set at 4:45 this afternoon.

Yeah, Standard Time north of the Mason-Dixon sucks from now through March. Only being at the far west edge of the Eastern Time Zone keeps me from opening a vein during peak SAD season.

[Dagga Boy]

I refuse to watch either, but may I suggest a duel with live ammo to really settle this. Talk about win win...

[GardoneVT]

I refuse to watch either, but may I suggest a duel with live ammo to really settle this. Talk about win win...

Only if Cory07Ink gets to fight the winner.

[gtmtnbiker98]

I refuse to watch either, but may I suggest a duel with live ammo to really settle this. Talk about win win...
I'd pay to watch that on pay per view!

[Vinh]

Decent entertainment after a long day.

[JodyH]

Yeah, Standard Time north of the Mason-Dixon sucks from now through March. Only being at the far west edge of the Eastern Time Zone keeps me from opening a vein during peak SAD season.
I'm on the east side of the MTN zone... cabin fever here I come!

[FNFAN]

Random musings:

-Why do two men who choose the same beard style argue?
-I'll bet James has never rocked a pocket square like that.
-If pressed into a duel, I'm thinkin' Zero would draw, load, dump his mag, do a backflip tactical scan and cook a damn-fine pot of Marinara before James could skin that smoke-pole.

[JodyH]

This is like a real life version of the "who would win in a fight, a chimp or a bear?" argument over on AR15.com

[MGW]

An ego is a powerful thing.

[Drang]

Unfortunately, that wasn't the setup to a joke. They're in a YouTube fight.

{JY's Video deleted}

And Zero's response.

{His, too}

Yeager responded, and ominously called him out, as Yeager is wont to do.

{And again...}

I was going to get popcorn over the ISIS vs AQAP Twitter battle (https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2015/11/02/the-dispute-between-al-qaeda-and-the-islamic-state-has-devolved-to-name-calling/), but this is funnier.

I regard both "Yeager v Commander Zero" and "AQAP v ISIS" the way I did the Iran-Iraq War: "Who cares who wins?"

[BehindBlueI's]

http://littlegreenfootballs.com/weblog/img/charles/2015/09/10/shutterstock_300129848.jpg

I would not be surprised if it's "reality tv" to get more exposure and attention. Real Housewives of Youtube Gun Stuff.

Not rewarding with a click.

[Dagga Boy]

Random musings:

-Why do two men who choose the same beard style argue?
-I'll bet James has never rocked a pocket square like that.
-If pressed into a duel, I'm thinkin' Zero would draw, load, dump his mag, do a backflip tactical scan and cook a damn-fine pot of Marinara before James could skin that smoke-pole.

James would be hiding in a ditch.....worked last time.

[SLG]

James would be hiding in a ditch.....worked last time.

No no no, you don't understand...oh, never mind. :-)

[StraitR]

Experience has shown, that people who feel the need to point out the shortcomings of others typically have nothing to offer that I don't already know or that I can't find elsewhere. If you can do, then do it, if you can teach, then teach it, but as soon as you start telling me how someone else's sauce isn't as special as yours, I'm out.

Yeager lost my interest years ago.

[JR1572]

James would be hiding in a ditch.....worked last time.

boom.

JR1572

[Chance]

Not rewarding with a click.

There's nothing to see. Just knowing that it's happening is entertainment enough.

[WDW]

I ran into Yeager this year at the BLADE Show in ATL....and I just kept right on walking.

[JackRock]

I'm gonna need a LOT more popcorn...

[Trooper224]

James would be hiding in a ditch.....worked last time.

B-I-T-C-H SLAP! Jamie gives the term "Jeager Bomb" a whole new meaning.

[Hambo]

Yeah, Standard Time north of the Mason-Dixon sucks from now through March. Only being at the far west edge of the Eastern Time Zone keeps me from opening a vein during peak SAD season.

Oh, how I miss the change of seasons... Did I mention we're growing tomatoes at 27.5N. I'm sorry, that was mean, but it's not like we close the border in October. There is a solution to SADness.

Anyway, what was this thread about? Oh, yeah, a YouTube penis measuring contest. Woo-hoo.

[jondoe297]

Bunch of dudes that look like this are now taking sides...
http://i67.tinypic.com/33zd84l.jpg

[JodyH]

Warriors, come out and plaaaaay.

[Luke]

I had to google "James Yeager hides in a ditch" and it had a video of it but there was no picture just sound.. From the comments it sounds like 1 set of fan girls say he was super brave doing to tactical thing and going into the tactical ditch to shoot bad guys while the other side says he's a vagina and ran and hid.

Can I get a brief run down of what happened? I'm very sorry to not be up to date on timmie trainer biographies, please forgive my ignorance.

[Chance]

I had to google "James Yeager hides in a ditch" and it had a video of it but there was no picture just sound..

Just Google 'James Yeager Iraq'. There's a ton of stuff out there about it, and it doesn't necessarily lend itself to a one line synopsis.

ETA:

I didn't mean to be dismissive of your curiosity, just that in all fairness, I think what happened warrants more than a cursory inspection. Members round abouts who have actually been under fire are far more qualified to share observations than I.

[Peally]

I had to google "James Yeager hides in a ditch" and it had a video of it but there was no picture just sound.. From the comments it sounds like 1 set of fan girls say he was super brave doing to tactical thing and going into the tactical ditch to shoot bad guys while the other side says he's a vagina and ran and hid.

Can I get a brief run down of what happened? I'm very sorry to not be up to date on timmie trainer biographies, please forgive my ignorance.

General consensus is he's a vagina that likes to run his mouth for YouTube views. If he was humble about the situation and acted like a normal person I'd say it's all under the bridge, but considering what a raging full-retard he is people can make fun of him all they want ;)

[NickA]

Are we 100% sure that they aren't the same guy? Have they ever been seen together?

[Gadfly]

Yeager seems like the kind of guy who would walk past you in high school and slap your books or lunch tray out of your hands and onto the floor, then walk off laughing like he accomplished something. Of course, he would only do it to freshmen that were smaller than him.

I never really cared for instructor Zero either, but his response really seemed to piss of Yeager, so now, I kind of like the guy....

http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/11/03/2630e06f2cf578b73904fd10edb2eb38.jpg

[NickA]

Yeager seems like the kind of guy who would walk past you in high school and slap your books or lunch tray out of your hands and onto the floor, then walk off laughing like he accomplished something. Of course, he would only do it to freshmen that were smaller than him.

I never really cared for instructor Zero either, but his response really seemed to piss of Yeager, so now, I kind of like the guy....

http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/11/03/2630e06f2cf578b73904fd10edb2eb38.jpg
The thing is, I've seen several posts from people that actually know him, describing him as generous and basically a good guy. I believe he even helped quite a bit with the legal defense of a former student who had to shoot in self defense.
It's hard to square with his public persona.

[UNK]

The meds must be working, shoulder twitch is almost gone.

[jondoe297]

The meds must be working, shoulder twitch is almost gone.

He must be weaning off the 'roids.

[Peally]

The thing is, I've seen several posts from people that actually know him, describing him as generous and basically a good guy. I believe he even helped quite a bit with the legal defense of a former student who had to shoot in self defense.
It's hard to square with his public persona.

Doing nice things once in a while and being a raging douche bag the rest of the time doesn't make you an overall good person. He's done plenty of damage to the rights he's supposedly supporting purely off of the words spewing out of his cram hole.

[PPGMD]

The thing is, I've seen several posts from people that actually know him, describing him as generous and basically a good guy. I believe he even helped quite a bit with the legal defense of a former student who had to shoot in self defense.
It's hard to square with his public persona.

Overall I think he falls in the good guy camp if you know him in person. But he is a firm believer in Click Bait, sometimes going over the top to get people to spread his videos, like the "All Guns Should be Glocks" video.

And honestly having a different public persona isn't unusual. Many that knew Col Cooper said that once you got him off the range into a more informal situation, he wasn't the large and in charge USMC LTC but a normal guy.

[GardoneVT]

The thing is, I've seen several posts from people that actually know him, describing him as generous and basically a good guy.

Frequent words from the neighbors when their next door acquaintance shoots up a school.

"Acta Non Verba"

[Lon]

The thing is, I've seen several posts from people that actually know him, describing him as generous and basically a good guy. I believe he even helped quite a bit with the legal defense of a former student who had to shoot in self defense.
It's hard to square with his public persona.

I took a rifle class from him in '08. His persona in the class was nothing like the YouTube persona. Nice guy, fairly articulate.

[Dagga Boy]

I have heard the same thing about Yeager. Suarez was like this as well when I met him before he turned into a total turd. I have several folks who I was friends with who have gone down this road, and two things were always at play. One was a deep seated psychological disorder about a need for attention in public. The ones who whenever they were in a group setting HAD to be the center of attention, even when surrounded by people who were older, more experienced, or better at whatever endeavor they shared. They could never accept being in the Mentor/mentored role. This is why most could never excel in an "organization" of any size or a traditional para military setting.
The other issue that often accompanied the first one....steroids and other drugs. Adding that factor to the first one amplified it ten fold.
I could tolerate these people as friends with one or the other, but as soon as they got mixed, it was over and they turn into pathetic lying assholes who believe their own demented visions of themselves.

[Wondering Beard]

The thing is, I've seen several posts from people that actually know him, describing him as generous and basically a good guy. I believe he even helped quite a bit with the legal defense of a former student who had to shoot in self defense.
It's hard to square with his public persona.

I met him at the NTI many years ago and while he seems to come off like a blowhard at a distance, he was a nice, respectful and thoughtful guy when we talked or when listening to the lectures.

I have no idea what he was like in Iraq or how he is in his classes or why he presents the way he does on those videos, all I know from my experience is if you get past the blowhard stuff, he's fine.

[Wondering Beard]

Warriors, come out and plaaaaay.

It's been a long time since I've seen that movie.

Btw, the actor who utters that line was in John Wick, playing the 'cleaner'

[Chance]

Nice guy, fairly articulate.

The fact that he's a nice guy takes his antics from being comical to just being kind of tragic. I don't care if you're a saint, if you challenge your naysayers to a duel, or go on the Internet and post a video saying you're going to start killing people for a political decision you don't like, or any of the other stupid shit he's intentionally shown the entire world, I want nothing to do with you. Ever.

I know a number of educated, intelligent people who willfully associate with Yeager, and I'm never really sure what to think of that. I guess I respect that they're loyal to the individual and ignore the persona, but... I think if I were them, I'd start saying, "I knew him before he went nuts."

[JodyH]

I knew Yeager when he was still with Andy Stanford and OPS. Myself and John Hearne were moderators on his forum for a couple of years.

He's changed significantly... he went from a tongue in cheek Kool-aid salesman, to drinking his own Kool-aid with gusto and attacking the unbelievers like a Zealot.

[Edwin]

This is like a real life version of the "who would win in a fight, a chimp or a bear?" argument over on AR15.com

Orange tabby (http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2006/06/060613-cat-bear.html)

[Tamara]

He's changed significantly... he went from a tongue in cheek Kool-aid salesman, to drinking his own Kool-aid with gusto and attacking the unbelievers like a Zealot.

If you surround yourself with uncritical nuthuggers, that's an occupational hazard. There are a lot of people in this industry who could benefit from hiring a Smithers; a person whose sole job is to say "Uh, sir, I don't think that's such a good idea."

[Peally]

Leave me out of this. :)

Hah, until you're on national TV claiming you're going to start murdering people you're not on the same level of douche bagginess. I'm a douche bag too but I don't go full-Yeager.

[Chance]

I'm a douche bag too but I don't go full-Yeager.

4224

(As a side note, I just discovered imgflip (https://imgflip.com/), and this is not good news to anyone on my Facebook timeline.)

[Gadfly]

a person whose sole job is to say "Uh, sir, I don't think that's such a good idea."

You mean a wife...

Seriously, if I had a Smithers to whisper that to me, I would be much higher up the chain in my agency.


He still reminds me of a guy who would knock your books out of your hands in high school hallways.

And his videos challenging people to a duel? Seriously? Does he ever look at his own videos and see the douche just oozing off the screen?

[Drang]

If you surround yourself with uncritical nuthuggers, that's an occupational hazard. There are a lot of people in this industry who could benefit from hiring a Smithers; a person whose sole job is to say "Uh, sir, I don't think that's such a good idea."

"This too shall pass. This too shall pass. This too..."

[JodyH]

He still reminds me of a guy who would knock your books out of your hands in high school hallways.
I think it's the exact opposite.

As for Zero... he seems to be legit and still at the "tongue in cheek" stage.
Only time will tell if he turns into a Youtard.

[GardoneVT]

If you surround yourself with uncritical nuthuggers, that's an occupational hazard. There are a lot of people in this industry who could benefit from hiring a Smithers; a person whose sole job is to say "Uh, sir, I don't think that's such a good idea."

If I recall my e-drama correctly, Yeager sacked a dude who reportedly did just that. Said dude started his own YouGun channel.

[Jared]

If you surround yourself with uncritical nuthuggers, that's an occupational hazard. There are a lot of people in this industry who could benefit from hiring a Smithers; a person whose sole job is to say "Uh, sir, I don't think that's such a good idea."

So much this.

It seems that the more sycophants a person accumulates the farther " out there" they get.

[DMF13]

There are a lot of people in this industry who could benefit from hiring a Smithers; a person whose sole job is to say "Uh, sir, I don't think that's such a good idea."That's true of every profession.

[DMF13]

Funny video throughout, but the portion relevant to this thread starts around 4:30 (NSFW due to language)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dBaISwLnrgo

[OnionsAndDragons]

I've met Yeager in person. He was polite and pretty chill. Still can't stand his persona and can't really agree with how far the dude has taken it.

I honestly thought the whole Instructor Zero persona thing was supposed to be tongue-in-cheek. I'm now totally unsure of this opinion. I will say that I agree with most of what the guy had to say about conducting oneself in a reasonably professional manner, and he came off as the adult in the room to me.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[Al T.]

One thing I've seen fairly frequently is personality change as folks age. Sometimes it improves, but several friends became acquaintances as they became unpleasant to be around. Might be the case here.

[Glenn E. Meyer]

That's true. I met Yeager at an NTI and he wasn't that off then. I do have folks who were good friends and then went off the rails personally or ethically. Screwed up major projects or institutions.

It is fun to watch though.

[Tom Duffy]

One thing I've seen fairly frequently is personality change as folks age. Sometimes it improves, but several friends became acquaintances as they became unpleasant to be around. Might be the case here.

I think that as we age, both our good and bad qualities become amplified.

[JodyH]

I'm not an asshole, I'm just set in my ways.

[Surf]

I have never met Yeager or Zero and what follows is not an endorsement or a knock on either person. I really don't watch too much youtube these days so not too much to say about how Zero may carry himself, but from what I have seen just as far as personality (never mind any other video content) he has not come off negatively in video. I have been around long enough, especially with youtube, that I am more familiar with Yeager. I really don't put much thought into the matter, plus have never met either guy, so I have no real opinions of them as people.

But just commenting on youtube, I will say that there are known recipes for successful youtube channels, it just really matters the route you wish to take. There is a route that is a bit like whoring yourself that will grow a channel quickly. Controversy via inter-forum, or intra-forum conflict, or across social media works well. Yeager very much understands the youtube thing and works it well for the style that he has chosen, and he even encourages certain behaviors that drives his social media interactions and helps his business. If you like youtube as a cash generator hits or views is what is going to matter. Bad publicity is still good publicity and drives views. His haters are just as important to his channel as those who like him. Again I have never met him and I am sure his underlying personality still exists, but I would not be surprised if he was a bit different in person.

Again I don't know enough about Zero to comment on his channel, if he has a channel? I try not to formulate too much of an opinion of people from what I know of them via the internet. I would however be more than willing to meet either of them in person, shake hands and shoot the shit if I come across them someday and formulate an opinion of them while face to face.

[jondoe297]

James would be hiding in a ditch.....worked last time.

Careful. He may challenge you to a duel over that.

[Dagga Boy]

Careful. He may challenge you to a duel over that.

Last guy I had a duel with didn't fair to well.......

[GardoneVT]

Last guy I had a duel with didn't fair to well.......

Probably because he didn't hide in the nearest ditch.

[Dagga Boy]

Probably because he didn't hide in the nearest ditch.

Nope, he stood up and took that 230 gr. hollow point in the chest like a man..:D

[jondoe297]

Last guy I had a duel with didn't fair to well.......

I swear I didn't make this up. He actually put this out and challenged people who talked shit about his "experience" in Iraq to duel him.

http://www.everydaynodaysoff.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/12/James-Yeager-Duel-Murder-Contract-Tactical-Response.jpg

[Glenn E. Meyer]

He forgot the part about being naked. My daughter gave me a history of dueling for a present. During a pistol duel, one of the greatest threats if you didn't get killed (accuracy wasn't that great, so wounding was more likely) were the infections from your clothes being pushed into you. Thus, a guy showed up to his duels naked. The lead ball could be removed and his survival chances were better. It was a good ploy as many refused to duel with him as it was disrespectful.

[RJ]

I swear I didn't make this up. He actually put this out and challenged people who talked shit about his "experience" in Iraq to duel him.



If this is true, any shred of respect I held for this individual and his training business just evaporated.

This is just sad.

[GardoneVT]

If this is true, any shred of respect I held for this individual and his training business just evaporated.

This is just sad.

Indeed.And dangerous for whoever takes classes involving him.

I'm no lawyer, but that "Duel Request Waiver" can't look good in open court .

[BobLoblaw]

Deleted

[jondoe297]

If this is true, any shred of respect I held for this individual and his training business just evaporated.

This is just sad.
Article about it:
http://www.jdoasis.com/forums/which-i-actually-considered-letting-james-yeager-kill-me

Actual facebook post:
https://www.facebook.com/JamesYeagerofTacticalResponse/posts/431365743585415?comment_id=4324737&offset=0&total_comments=121

[Wondering Beard]

Article about it:
http://www.jdoasis.com/forums/which-i-actually-considered-letting-james-yeager-kill-me

Actual facebook post:
https://www.facebook.com/JamesYeagerofTacticalResponse/posts/431365743585415?comment_id=4324737&offset=0&total_comments=121

Wow.

Whatever good I thought of him went out the window. This is stupid beyond belief

[JodyH]

Drank his own Kool-aid and surrounds himself with sycophants.

[HCM]

May I recommend: Gentlemen's Blood: A History of Dueling


http://www.amazon.com/Gentlemens-Blood-A-History-Dueling/dp/158234440X

[nalesq]

I'm no lawyer, but that "Duel Request Waiver" can't look good in open court .

You can waive just about everything, except life, which is why assisted suicide is either illegal or highly restricted in most places.

Incidentally, in the Anglo-American tradition, most dueling did not actually result in killing. The point wasn't so much to kill your opponent as much as it was to prove one another's worth as persons of quality who valued honor more than life.

See for example, Governor Wilson's famous little pamphlet on the Code of Honor.

[LittleLebowski]

Video from a Yeager class.

https://www.instagram.com/p/BOGYdHJBpgQ/

[RJ]

Video from a Yeager class.

https://www.instagram.com/p/BOGYdHJBpgQ/

Yee-bus. That's just...wow.

[Sigfan26]

Video from a Yeager class.

https://www.instagram.com/p/BOGYdHJBpgQ/

I'm not sure what amazes me more:
-The instructor letting him fire
- the student thinking it was OK to fire
- Or the fact that none of the students seemed to react


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[BaiHu]

Video from a Yeager class.

https://www.instagram.com/p/BOGYdHJBpgQ/
Holy scary shit Batman!

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[Rich@CCC]

Wait...

Jimmy Yeager called someone else out as an entertainer?

With a straight face?

Seriously?!

[busdriver]

That anyone thinks that sociopath-poser is a good choice to learn anything from is amazing, and morbidly interesting.

[Clobbersaurus]

What the firearms training community needs is an professional association of trainers who, by means of their membership in said association, agree to adhere to specific safety and ethical standards. I liken this to any other professional association that helps to protect their industry from charlatans and hucksters by setting standards. It would also be a great way for novice students to vet trainers by their membership in good standing in the association.

Crap like what was shown in the video link above would give cause to the standards committee to vote on the potential termination of the membership. I have to think that there is apetite for this in the training community?

I don't know of anything like this out there, maybe there is?

[SeriousStudent]

Anybody know who the dude in the chair is? It looks like he could really use a FreeWheel (https://www.gofreewheel.com/) and I just so happen to have one that's not being used.

I might know who it is. I will make inquiries.

[Robinson]

Good grief, I almost involuntarily yelled "AAAAGGGHHHH" at my computer when I saw that guy shooting from his position.

[BaiHu]

What the firearms training community needs is an professional association of trainers who, by means of their membership in said association, agree to adhere to specific safety and ethical standards. I liken this to any other professional association that helps to protect their industry from charlatans and hucksters by setting standards. It would also be a great way for novice students to vet trainers by their membership in good standing in the association.

Crap like what was shown in the video link above would give cause to the standards committee to vote on the potential termination of the membership. I have to think that there is apetite for this in the training community?

I don't know of anything like this out there, maybe there is?
The problem with "ass-ociations" like this is that they eventually become rife with politics and quickly lose good members. Think "honest journalists" trying to be "correct" rather than being first. At some point, the good intention faerie gets crushed by the Machiavellian wheels of "the money train". Oh and don't forget the secret handshake and meetings that require high priced dues.

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[Clobbersaurus]

The problem with "ass-ociations" like this is that they eventually become rife with politics and quickly lose good members. Think "honest journalists" trying to be "correct" rather than being first. At some point, the good intention faerie gets crushed by the Machiavellian wheels of "the money train". Oh and don't forget the secret handshake and meetings that require high priced dues.

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk

I get your point but that's a rather cynical way of looking at it. An association is only as good as it's code of conduct and it's memberships willingness to work for the betterment of the industry.

[BaiHu]

I get your point but that's a rather cynical way of looking at it. An association is only as good as it's code of conduct and it's memberships willingness to work for the betterment of the industry.
I am, I agree and you shoot USPSA and/or IDPA, right? Never been an issue there, right [emoji12]

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[GardoneVT]

I am, I agree and you shoot USPSA and/or IDPA, right? Never been an issue there, right [emoji12]

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The overall concept is similar to university accreditation; by establishing consistent firearm training standards , holding all members accountable for meeting those standards regardless of status, and marketing the accreditation it empowers the ordinary customer with zero previous experience to be able to sign up for a certified instructor and earn a proper education - without getting burned by a shady jagoff.

If a student attends a shady college and it goes up in smoke, they'll be left with an empty wallet and a useless degree.If a student attends a gun class and the instructor is a bearded tool propped up by sound bytes and a Magpul DVD from 2010, they won't know until the terrible moment happens . Depending on how bad the advice was, if the bad guy doesn't get the better of them the legal system just might.

One of these outcomes is magnitudes worse then the other. Preventing that is worth some degree of office politics.

This post has gone one long enough,but I'll add in having a safety and instruction standard greater then the NRA will have benefits beyond just classroom integrity. People are competitive , and marketing gun safety and on demand performance as a social status symbol is a great way to make folks take the 4 rules & shooting practice seriously beyond the classroom.

[Hambo]

Well, if nothing else they learned what it's like to get shot at. (Sarcasm-Midwestern humor)

[David S.]

What the firearms training community needs is an professional association of trainers who, by means of their membership in said association, agree to adhere to specific safety and ethical standards. I liken this to any other professional association that helps to protect their industry from charlatans and hucksters by setting standards. It would also be a great way for novice students to vet trainers by their membership in good standing in the association.

Crap like what was shown in the video link above would give cause to the standards committee to vote on the potential termination of the membership. I have to think that there is apetite for this in the training community?

I don't know of anything like this out there, maybe there is?

Start one. No, seriously.

There is no reason that it has to be blessed by anyone but you and the people willing to patronize your association. There's also no reason that there can't be dozens of these associations.

While not exactly what you are talking about, I'm in the process of creating a website that will disseminate similar information. It should be released early next year. SoonTM

[Kirk]

James would be hiding in a ditch.....worked last time.

Lol!!! Nice!

[Kirk]

I knew Yeager when he was still with Andy Stanford and OPS. Myself and John Hearne were moderators on his forum for a couple of years.

He's changed significantly... he went from a tongue in cheek Kool-aid salesman, to drinking his own Kool-aid with gusto and attacking the unbelievers like a Zealot.

Yep.

I used to be on his forum years ago when I first started getting into training stuff. He was a decently cool dude at the time, nice and respectful. Trained with them twice. Now, he seems to be a complete a-hole jerk who is a very, very average shooter (probably would be C-class is USPSA) who thinks he is the shit. I feel that this attitude really took off when he went from being an obese slob to being semi-decently fit.

[jlw]

What the firearms training community needs is an professional association of trainers who, by means of their membership in said association, agree to adhere to specific safety and ethical standards. I liken this to any other professional association that helps to protect their industry from charlatans and hucksters by setting standards. It would also be a great way for novice students to vet trainers by their membership in good standing in the association.

Crap like what was shown in the video link above would give cause to the standards committee to vote on the potential termination of the membership. I have to think that there is apetite for this in the training community?

I don't know of anything like this out there, maybe there is?

That idea has been discussed extensively. On one occasion, many of the instructors who participate on this forum had a group discussion about forming such an association.

It always comes down to two issues. First, if membership is based upon having completed specific courses qualifications, people are going meet the selection requirements on paper who still shouldn't be included. If it is a vote of the membership, it's going to turn into a political click at some point.

Furthermore, it's only going to matter to the people who think it matters.

[Lon]

I feel that this attitude really took off when he went from being an obese slob to being semi-decently fit.

The one class I too with him was Fighting Rifle. It was right when he was starting to get into the physical fitness stuff. That Yeager was not the same Yeager I see now. I stopped going to GOTX on a regular basis a year or 2 later, iirc. B/t he and Mookie I had too many WTF moments with stuff on the board.

[BaiHu]

That idea has been discussed extensively. On one occasion, many of the instructors who participate on this forum had a group discussion about forming such an association.

It always comes down to two issues. First, if membership is based upon having completed specific courses qualifications, people are going meet the selection requirements on paper who still shouldn't be included. If it is a vote of the membership, it's going to turn into a political click at some point.

Furthermore, it's only going to matter to the people who think it matters.
Better version of my point. Well said.

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk

[Totem Polar]

Good grief, I almost involuntarily yelled "AAAAGGGHHHH" at my computer when I saw that guy shooting from his position.

While being jostled around by the AI. Just no.

The certifying association sounds good in theory, but would almost certainly shit the bed in one direction or another because: people; history. Even university accreditation has its serious issues.

I feel the social media/auction site formula of acquired feedback over time and word of mouth referral combined with old fashioned caveat emptor that we use currently is probably about as good as it's going to get.

[Kirk]

I think step 1 of the accreditation process is "has instructor ever had CCW pulled for making terroristic threats in a YouTube video?"

[Kirk]

The one class I too with him was Fighting Rifle. It was right when he was starting to get into the physical fitness stuff. That Yeager was not the same Yeager I see now. I stopped going to GOTX on a regular basis a year or 2 later, iirc. B/t he and Mookie I had too many WTF moments with stuff on the board.

Yep, same here.

Ben/Mookie is actually a great guy, at least he was always extremely nice to me. I know he always gets bashed for his NSW background, but he definitely seems to have earned his stripes in Najaf.

[Lon]

I'll give them an A for allowing a person with that kind of disability in the class. But a big F for the execution. If you're going to allow that then you have to make plans to deal with it that don't endanger the rest of the class.

[Clobbersaurus]

Start one. No, seriously.

Ha. No, seriously, ha.:cool:


That idea has been discussed extensively. On one occasion, many of the instructors who participate on this forum had a group discussion about forming such an association.

That is good to hear. It means it's an issue they deemed worthy of some discussion.



Better version of my point. Well said.

Story of my life.

[CCT125US]

Not to set the Internet on fire or anything, but how does this vary from Hackathorn's flex drill, or his snake drill?

[jlw]

Several firearms instructor associations exist; thus, proving my previous statement that they will only matter to those people who think they matter.

Serpas and Judges sell; so does bad firearms instruction.

The fact that so much bad instruction exists is proof that the masses either don't do any vetting or don't have a frame of reference to make a proper distinction between good and bad, See Serpas and Judges statement.

If Pistol-Forum were to form an accrediting body for firearms instructors, and Ken Hackathorn doesn't join it, does that mean he is a bad instructor that people should avoid?

Couldn't someone like Yeager put together enough acolytes to form their own competing association thus bringing the whole issue of proper vetting and frames of reference back into play?

Pincus has an instructor organization. If you think he teaches good stuff, its accreditation would matter to you. If you don't think he teaches good stuff, its accreditation would tell you to stay away.

I'm on the board of directors for a statewide LE firearms instructor association. Dysfunction is the order of the day, and derp is an organizational principle.

[GardoneVT]

Several firearms instructor associations exist; thus, proving my previous statement that they will only matter to those people who think they matter.

Serpas and Judges sell; so does bad firearms instruction.

The fact that so much bad instruction exists is proof that the masses either don't do any vetting or don't have a frame of reference to make a proper distinction between good and bad, See Serpas and Judges statement.

If Pistol-Forum were to form an accrediting body for firearms instructors, and Ken Hackathorn doesn't join it, does that mean he is a bad instructor that people should avoid?

Couldn't someone like Yeager put together enough acolytes to form their own competing association thus bringing the whole issue of proper vetting and frames of reference back into play?

Pincus has an instructor organization. If you think he teaches good stuff, its accreditation would matter to you. If you don't think he teaches good stuff, its accreditation would tell you to stay away.

I'm on the board of directors for a statewide LE firearms instructor association. Dysfunction is the order of the day, and derp is an organizational principle.

The problem is marketing.

I guarantee you the only instructor body an average Joe at your local range will know about is the NRA. Derp exists because ignorance is perpetuated under the guise of truth.

Make a national , socially relevant organization of shooters and watch folks trip over themselves to join. If Colion Noir, Jesse Abbate, Ken Hackathorn and others were part of a nationally recognized shooting organization ordinary Joes and Janes would be motivated to join. Ranges and shops would want in on the status - anything to get a leg up on the competition.

Attach standards to the entry requirements, and that's that. It also checks one of the biggest weaknesses we have as a group : whenever an anti starts waving the bloody shirt there's a group of apolitical pros who can counter it on social media without the historical baggage of the NRA - which must remain accessable to all shooters to fullfill its mandate.

The objections regarding politics are valid, because inevitably that's gonna happen here too. Yet look at the big picture - another poster called it on the money. Either we regulate ourselves or regulation WILL be imposed from outside. Look at every major industry -cars, video games, etc. Either those mass market business organizations self-regulate via an internal organization, or have government regulation imposed for them.

We've dodged that bullet because the gun industry isn't centralized. Cross a zip code and the "gun business" can look entirely different. But that's not going to work as the Gun Business expands and centralizes from lots of small-time niche businesses to streamlined mass market channels.

[Jay Cunningham]

Make a national , socially relevant organization of shooters and watch folks trip over themselves to join. If Colion Noir, Jesse Abbate, Ken Hackathorn and others were part of a nationally recognized shooting organization ordinary Joes and Janes would be motivated to join. Ranges and shops would want in on the status - anything to get a leg up on the competition.


Nobody knows who any of those people are.

I know it might seem hard to believe, but to the average person the local club NRA instructor has exponentially more credibility than any of those names you just listed. Gun shops don't know who they are, either.

That's reality.

[JAD]

Not to set the Internet on fire or anything, but how does this vary from Hackathorn's flex drill, or his snake drill?

Well, having done his drills, they were reasonably controlled activities with some degree of intention. Whereas the Yeager incident seemed to be a guy in a wheelchair who got behind of the exercise he probably couldn't have safely executed on a line, and an AI who decided to play rocket Bob with him, shoving him clumsily over broken ground and screaming at him to fire. Which went well.

[jlw]

The problem is marketing.

I guarantee you the only instructor body an average Joe at your local range will know about is the NRA. Derp exists because ignorance is perpetuated under the guise of truth.

Make a national , socially relevant organization of shooters and watch folks trip over themselves to join. If Colion Noir, Jesse Abbate, Ken Hackathorn and others were part of a nationally recognized shooting organization ordinary Joes and Janes would be motivated to join. Ranges and shops would want in on the status - anything to get a leg up on the competition.

Attach standards to the entry requirements, and that's that. It also checks one of the biggest weaknesses we have as a group : whenever an anti starts waving the bloody shirt there's a group of apolitical pros who can counter it on social media without the historical baggage of the NRA - which must remain accessable to all shooters to fullfill its mandate.

The objections regarding politics are valid, because inevitably that's gonna happen here too. Yet look at the big picture - another poster called it on the money. Either we regulate ourselves or regulation WILL be imposed from outside. Look at every major industry -cars, video games, etc. Either those mass market business organizations self-regulate via an internal organization, or have government regulation imposed for them.

We've dodged that bullet because the gun industry isn't centralized. Cross a zip code and the "gun business" can look entirely different. But that's not going to work as the Gun Business expands and centralizes from lots of small-time niche businesses to streamlined mass market channels.


Well, I was in the room while Tom Givens, Craig Douglas, Cecil Burch, Paul Sharp, Marty Hayes, Claude Werner, John Farnam, Greg Ellifritz, John Murphy, John Hearne, Spencer Keepers, Shane Gosa, and several others (if you were there, please forgive me for not remembering) discussed it for a considerable amount of time only to reach the consensus that it wasn't workable. Perhaps if you had been there to lead the group onward and upward to victory; unless of course you had some other people in mind. Personally, I was just trying not to knock my drink over so they wouldn't realize I was there and get thrown out.

[GardoneVT]

Well, I was in the room while Tom Givens, Craig Douglas, Cecil Burch, Paul Sharp, Marty Hayes, Claude Werner, John Farnam, Greg Ellifritz, John Murphy, John Hearne, Spencer Keepers, Shane Gosa, and several others (if you were there, please forgive me for not remembering) discussed it for a considerable amount of time only to reach the consensus that it wasn't workable. Perhaps if you had been there to lead the group onward and upward to victory; unless of course you had some other people in mind. Personally, I was just trying not to knock my drink over so they wouldn't realize I was there and get thrown out.

Do you remember what the reasons behind the decision were?

[jlw]

Do you remember what the reasons behind the decision were?

Yes, and I have outlined them in several posts above.

----------

Jim Higginbotham, Lynn Givens, Tiffany Johnson and Vicki Farnam were also part of the conversation. Mas Ayoob was as the event, but wasn't present for the group discussion. I think Chris Fry was there, but I'm not certain. I'm pretty sure that Chuck Haggard, Wayne Dobbs, and Darryl Bolke were part of it too.

[Al T.]

I know it might seem hard to believe, but to the average person the local club NRA instructor has exponentially more credibility than any of those names you just listed. Gun shops don't know who they are, either.

Worth quoting again. There are, maybe, five guys I can think of locally who have trained with those folks. This is in an area of 500k folks. Chris Costa and Instructor Zero have more pull than the trainers JLW mentions. Sad.

[Lon]

Chris Costa and Instructor Zero have more pull than the trainers JLW mentions. Sad.

It's a social media world. Costa, Yeager, Zero and others have a huge social media presence.

[jlw]

The downside to all of the truly good instructors not playing the social media game is that they abandon those platforms to the derp.

On the other hand, if they venture into the social media game, they will face everything they post attracting a swarm of Serpa wearing derp wanting to argue.

In the old days, they used to just have to battle the gun rags. Now they have to battle everyone with an interweb connection.

[Totem Polar]

...Now they have to battle everyone with an interweb connection.

How does that old saying go (brutally paraphrased here) about even if you're the baddest ground fighter on the scene with an A+ BBJ game, there's still no future in grappling street skells with Tuberculosis.

The crema will rise to the top of the espresso, to murder another old saying. That's why we all became connoisseurs.

[busdriver]

There's a difference between a bad instructor and a flagrantly dangerous one.

[Tom Givens]

I've been involved in discussions about a national accreditation/certification option other than the NRA several times. It just does not seem workable.

Ken Hackathorn's name has been used in this thread, so I'll use him as an example. I have known Ken since the late 1970's. He is one of the best trainers in the business and is a friend of mine. He was approached about joining such an organization and flatly refused. He said, basically, that it could do him no good, he had all the business he wanted, and all the credibility he needed. A lot of his peers feel the same way. That leaves a bunch of well qualified trainers outside the organization, and lesser trainers in it. If someone notes that Ken is not a member of the "We're Really Qualified Trainers Association", are we saying he's not qualified?

As to people flocking to an association as consumers, I think someone has an inflated idea of the size of the serious training community among gun shops and shooting ranges. I moved to a new town/state a few months ago. There are two indoor ranges in the town. I visited both to see if they were suitable for my own practice. I asked if I could work from the holster, shoot rapid fire drills, etc. No one at either shop had ever heard of me or Rangemaster and didn't know me from Adam's housecat. I've been in this business over 40 years and gun shop operators don't know my name at all.

[modrecoil]

The downside to all of the truly good instructors not playing the social media game is that they abandon those platforms to the derp.

On the other hand, if they venture into the social media game, they will face everything they post attracting a swarm of Serpa wearing derp wanting to argue.

In the old days, they used to just have to battle the gun rags. Now they have to battle everyone with an interweb connection.

This. Most of the weekend warriors in my area know who Yeager is. Some aspire to drive a thousand miles to train with him. Sometimes I suggest they stop at Pat Goodale's a quarter of the way there and call it a weekend. Blank stares.

[jlw]

I've been involved in discussions about a national accreditation/certification option other than the NRA several times. It just does not seem workable.

Ken Hackathorn's name has been used in this thread, so I'll use him as an example. I have known Ken since the late 1970's. He is one of the best trainers in the business and is a friend of mine. He was approached about joining such an organization and flatly refused. He said, basically, that it could do him no good, he had all the business he wanted, and all the credibility he needed. A lot of his peers feel the same way. That leaves a bunch of well qualified trainers outside the organization, and lesser trainers in it. If someone notes that Ken is not a member of the "We're Really Qualified Trainers Association", are we saying he's not qualified?

As to people flocking to an association as consumers, I think someone has an inflated idea of the size of the serious training community among gun shops and shooting ranges. I moved to a new town/state a few months ago. There are two indoor ranges in the town. I visited both to see if they were suitable for my own practice. I asked if I could work from the holster, shoot rapid fire drills, etc. No one at either shop had ever heard of me or Rangemaster and didn't know me from Adam's housecat. I've been in this business over 40 years and gun shop operators don't know my name at all.


To echo what Tom writes, Shane Gosa and I brought in Tom Givens, Craig Douglas, Claude Werner, William Aprill, and Erik Lund for a our state association's conference in 2015. One of the other board members said these words to me, "I don't who all these people are that you and Shane are bringing in, but I'll put (association member) up against any of them."

The first open enrollment class I attended was in April of 2014. I recognized over half the people in the 2015 Paul-E-Palooza group photo. The group of people who actually seek out quality training is small. PF has a concentration of those people, and this discussions here are not representative of gun owners as a whole.

[jlw]

This. Most of the weekend warriors in my area know who Yeager is. Some aspire to drive a thousand miles to train with him. Sometimes I suggest they stop at Pat Goodale's a quarter of the way there and call it a weekend. Blank stares.

On the same weekend I had Craig Douglas in town, one of the local gun shop guys drove six hours to take a Yeager class.

[JAD]

On the same weekend I had Craig Douglas in town, one of the local gun shop guys drove six hours to take a Yeager class.

Good.

[jlw]

Good.

He's young and has since started walking the path of righteousness.

[RJ]

^^^ Wow, interesting discussion. I believe every word of it about associations and trying to get something started in the gun industry.

Question: What I'd actually find useful would be a means to both provide and receive feedback on trainers/training in an online centralized but web-enabled system.

Sorry to keep dragging my hobby into things, but we use a national RV Park online rating system frequently:

www.rvparkreviews.com

RV Park Reviews is crowd-sourced (by unbiased users) and includes a rating system in which overall guest experience is rated, as well as recording specific features (50A service, dog parks, pool, etc.). My wife and I find it essential to check ratings on RV parks before calling to make a reservation.

From their site:

"RVParkReviews is a member driven comprehensive review and camping information site specifically for those who love to camp. Campground reviews submitted by real campers enable the RVing community to plan wonderful trips and find accommodations that meet their every desire.

For over a decade RVers across the USA, Canada and Mexico have been sharing unbiased reviews and interesting travel information. Our web site thrives on the generous contributors who have taken time to share their camping experiences with the world. We display both positive and negative reviews, which are strictly the opinions of the authors. 206478 reviews and counting!!

RVPark Reviews is operated by Social Knowledge, an online peer community network of affiliated websites where those sharing similar interests may interact with one another in member lead discussions. Social Knowledge and its affiliated websites are operated by Social Knowledge, L.L.C., ("us", "the Company", or "we"). Affiliated websites ("Websites") are listed at Social Knowledge - Online Community Network.

Contact: support [at] socialknowledge.com

Copyright Agent:
Social Knowledge, LLC
3523 McKinney Ave #419
Dallas, TX 75204-1401"

It is free both to provide reviews, as well as to check out RV parks. (i would guess it's supported by ads). I've submitted maybe 20 reviews since 2015. It is very easy to use.

Would something like this be feasible?

[Hambo]

People believe all kinds of bullshit they see on social media and YouTube. No association is going to change that. If I were an instructor not in the association I'd use that as marketing. "The Cool Guy Instructor Association is more concerned about liability than teaching you the skills to survive in a modern asymmetric environment. I'll teach the same high speed shooting skills used by aggressive Tier 1 teams..."

Like everything else in life it's a matter of how interested people are in a given topic. If they skim the top, they'll get the scum off the top of the YouTube pond. If they do some real research they can find out who knows what they're doing.

[Gray222]

People believe all kinds of bullshit they see on social media and YouTube. No association is going to change that. If I were an instructor not in the association I'd use that as marketing. "The Cool Guy Instructor Association is more concerned about liability than teaching you the skills to survive in a modern asymmetric environment. I'll teach the same high speed shooting skills used by aggressive Tier 1 teams..."

Like everything else in life it's a matter of how interested people are in a given topic. If they skim the top, they'll get the scum off the top of the YouTube pond. If they do some real research they can find out who knows what they're doing.

The youtubers, IGer's and other gun industry celebs are usually preying on the lowest common denominator of gun owners who want some type of training. I mean, who sees a video of a dude doing cool-guy stuff and then say, nah I don't want to train with that guy? (Aside from us or anyone with a bit of intellect)

98% of the stuff that is being pushed out there is junk and will most definitely get people killed on the streetz.

We have a thread somewhere here, in which, we talk about picking the right instructor whom may teach you exactly what you are looking for. That is one of the most important things about training. If I want to learn about conceal carry stuff and I go to the range with instructor zero, guess what I am going to learn? Absolutely fuck-all, that's what. It is like wanting to learn target discrimination and getting Sonny Puzikas to train you on it.

[Wondering Beard]

^^^ Wow, interesting discussion. I believe every word of it about associations and trying to get something started in the gun industry.

Question: What I'd actually find useful would be a means to both provide and receive feedback on trainers/training in an online centralized but web-enabled system.

[...]

Would something like this be feasible?

You are here already.

Ok, this was a little bit tongue in cheek, but if you think about it, this is one of the very few spots on the internet where you can actually get serious review, critique and assessment of quality instructors.

[HCountyGuy]

Video from a Yeager class.

https://www.instagram.com/p/BOGYdHJBpgQ/

Not that I really have much doubt about this happening with his cadre of unqualified wanna-bes, but where is it revealed this is from his group?

[Rich@CCC]

You can't hear Yeager's twang on the bull horn?

[Default.mp3]

^^^ Wow, interesting discussion. I believe every word of it about associations and trying to get something started in the gun industry.

Question: What I'd actually find useful would be a means to both provide and receive feedback on trainers/training in an online centralized but web-enabled system.

Sorry to keep dragging my hobby into things, but we use a national RV Park online rating system frequently:

www.rvparkreviews.com (http://www.rvparkreviews.com/)

RV Park Reviews is crowd-sourced (by unbiased users) and includes a rating system in which overall guest experience is rated, as well as recording specific features (50A service, dog parks, pool, etc.). My wife and I find it essential to check ratings on RV parks before calling to make a reservation.

From their site:

"RVParkReviews is a member driven comprehensive review and camping information site specifically for those who love to camp. Campground reviews submitted by real campers enable the RVing community to plan wonderful trips and find accommodations that meet their every desire.

For over a decade RVers across the USA, Canada and Mexico have been sharing unbiased reviews and interesting travel information. Our web site thrives on the generous contributors who have taken time to share their camping experiences with the world. We display both positive and negative reviews, which are strictly the opinions of the authors. 206478 reviews and counting!!

RVPark Reviews is operated by Social Knowledge, an online peer community network of affiliated websites where those sharing similar interests may interact with one another in member lead discussions. Social Knowledge and its affiliated websites are operated by Social Knowledge, L.L.C., ("us", "the Company", or "we"). Affiliated websites ("Websites") are listed at Social Knowledge - Online Community Network.

Contact: support [at] socialknowledge.com

Copyright Agent:
Social Knowledge, LLC
3523 McKinney Ave #419
Dallas, TX 75204-1401"

It is free both to provide reviews, as well as to check out RV parks. (i would guess it's supported by ads). I've submitted maybe 20 reviews since 2015. It is very easy to use.

Would something like this be feasible?Nope, I don't think it would be feasible at all, because folks choose trainers on a different basis than how they would choose an RV park (or so I assume, as I've not owned an RV or used an RV park). The difference is, people don't wrap up their identity to what RV park they choose. They don't get attached to a particular RV park, and start singing its praises whenever RV parks in general come up. Trainers, on the other hand, often have cults of personalities, even the decent ones, not the mention the various industry ties and webs of friendship. Thus, most of the reviewers would be biased, even if they were so unconsciously.

I'll also note that most folks don't know what they don't know. Every class they go to is awesome, because that is all they have for a frame of reference. Many of the Tactical Response or Combat Focused Shooting fanboys are genuine in their belief that the classes they attend provide top tier instruction.

[HCountyGuy]

You can't hear Yeager's twang on the bull horn?

I can thankfully say my exposure to him is so minimal that I don't know much of what he sounds like.

If he was there overseeing that cluster-fuck and did nothing to stop that from occurring, then that should be Exhibit A on why he shouldn't be training anyone.