Ron Avery: "Pliable Hand" Grip

[JTPHD]

I came across these videos and am interested to know if you all have experimented with this technique. I typically grip by squeezing as hard as I can with both hands, still allowing for relaxation of my trigger finger. With this traditional approach, I consistently get .20-.22 splits with a glock and my carnie hands (sometimes faster, but not on demand).

If I am tracking, Ron is saying to keep the hands more relaxed, but apply more inward wrist pressure? What are your thoughts?


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vSl66vSERZ4


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YXyAdbEXtFA

[Wobblie]

Heck, I'm so old, and have lost so much upper body strength, that's all I can muster. Squishy.

[gringop]

I find that I do better without crushing the heck out of the grip. The gun is going to recoil no matter how hard I grip it unless it's a 22. I just need to be able to manage that recoil well enough to fire it when the sights are aligned again.

Me crushing it with a superman grip actually interferes with it returning quickly to being on target. The increased rigidity seem to not allow it to return as accurately to the same spot.

I am shooting a G19 so I have to grip a little tighter when I switch to an N-frame 45 Colt or Full 1911 45 loads.


Gringop

[1slow]

The stronger my grip, the harder I can grip and still not be interfering with proper technique and speed. In example, if I can close a #2 gripper (190lbs or so) 1/2 of my max is less than one who can close a #3 (260lbs or so).
So the stronger one can use less effort and still be quite solid.
Alas at this point I have not quite gotten back to the #2 level.

[45dotACP]

Honestly, I've always had the feeling that just hitting the COC grippers day after day and chasing it like it's an athletic event will lead to some severe problems with your elbows and forearms. Those muscles can get irritated fairly quickly and if you don't do it carefully, you'll overdo it royally.

It's contrary to the popular belief today, but I think you can achieve some pretty high level shooting without gripping the gun as hard as possible. Yes, a flatter tracking gun is a nice thing, but what is even nicer is having a gun that tracks consistently, whether it's flat or not. Also nice is not having tennis elbow.

Not being able to read your sights is probably more concerning to me than not being able to squeeze with enough pressure to pop a tennis ball. :D

[1slow]

BTDT, 1993 too much COC every other day, took 18 months to get over tennis elbow.
Now at age 58, I view COC as something like a heavy deadlift day. I would do it 1 time a week. Also work the finger extensors with a band etc...
Thick bar 2" will work your grip as will kettlebells, clubbells etc...

[orionz06]

One thing that some of these older guys fail to realize is that their relaxed grip is often stronger than some crush the gun grips. Old guy grip strength is a thing. That's not to dismiss what he said but I don't know where his relaxed ends and my crush the gun begins.


Sent from my Nokia 3310 using an owl

[JHC]

One thing that some of these older guys fail to realize is that their relaxed grip is often stronger than some crush the gun grips. Old guy grip strength is a thing. That's not to dismiss what he said but I don't know where his relaxed ends and my crush the gun begins.


Sent from my Nokia 3310 using an owl

^ This. There are also many top shooters that have elaborated on a strong grip's role in controlling the handgun.

As noted there is subjectivity and then SUBJECTIVITY and this relaxed squish vs rigid hard is pretty far up that scale. I was unable to figure out from the two videos and examples of brittle rock and biscuit dough what this was actually supposed to feel like.

[CCT125US]

What would be interesting is a multi axis strain gauge applied to the grip. Start putting some numbers to these terms.

[orionz06]

What would be interesting is a multi axis strain gauge applied to the grip. Start putting some numbers to these terms.

Yes!


Sent from my Nokia 3310 using an owl

[GJM]

Ron, himself, is very strong. It seems like he has been finishing in the top ten of many matches for 30+ years.

[xmanhockey7]

I really want to take a class Ron. I saw he was at a range near me and I had no idea until I saw someone post an AAR.

[spinmove_]

Honestly, I've always had the feeling that just hitting the COC grippers day after day and chasing it like it's an athletic event will lead to some severe problems with your elbows and forearms. Those muscles can get irritated fairly quickly and if you don't do it carefully, you'll overdo it royally.

It's contrary to the popular belief today, but I think you can achieve some pretty high level shooting without gripping the gun as hard as possible. Yes, a flatter tracking gun is a nice thing, but what is even nicer is having a gun that tracks consistently, whether it's flat or not. Also nice is not having tennis elbow.

Not being able to read your sights is probably more concerning to me than not being able to squeeze with enough pressure to pop a tennis ball. :D

^This.

I've not been shooting long, but I've done a metric crap ton of experimentation with different grip techniques. Basically what I've found is that while having a good firm grip on the gun is ultimately what you want, you don't want to necessarily crush it. Technique will win out in controlling the gun far before raw grip strength will. Work smarter, not harder. That being said, the "sticky, pliable" grip is definitely a thing. Couple that sort of gripping technique with applying as much surface area of your hands on the gun and you have a winning combination. Flowing with and mitigating the recoil works far better for far longer than simply trying to muscle the gun into recoiling as little as possible.

[scw2]

What is the sticky/pliable grip thing? I saw this video a few months ago and tried the demonstration Ron did with a friend and I couldn't get it to work. What should I be trying to do with my hands to get that grip?

[spinmove_]

What is the sticky/pliable grip thing? I saw this video a few months ago and tried the demonstration Ron did with a friend and I couldn't get it to work. What should I be trying to do with my hands to get that grip?

You should be gripping the pistol firmly, but not so much force that your hands become totally rigid. You should also put as much surface area of your hands in contact with the grip of the gun as possible.

[okie john]

I've not been shooting long, but I've done a metric crap ton of experimentation with different grip techniques. Basically what I've found is that while having a good firm grip on the gun is ultimately what you want, you don't want to necessarily crush it. Technique will win out in controlling the gun far before raw grip strength will. Work smarter, not harder. That being said, the "sticky, pliable" grip is definitely a thing. Couple that sort of gripping technique with applying as much surface area of your hands on the gun and you have a winning combination. Flowing with and mitigating the recoil works far better for far longer than simply trying to muscle the gun into recoiling as little as possible.


One thing that some of these older guys fail to realize is that their relaxed grip is often stronger than some crush the gun grips. Old guy grip strength is a thing. That's not to dismiss what he said but I don't know where his relaxed ends and my crush the gun begins.

Here's an idea: Do you guys think that the relative amount of exertion is the factor here? In other words, if Shooter A has low grip strength and has to exert 85% (made up number) of the total force he has available to shoot a sub-4 second Bill Drill, then he has what Avery calls a "brittle" grip. But Shooter B has high grip strength and has to exert just 60% of the total force he has available to shoot a sub-3 second Bill Drill, so he has what Avery calls a "pliable" grip.

When I first switched to Glocks several years ago, I got the best results with a crush grip. But I had also been working desk jobs for 15 years and my grip strength was pretty pathetic compared to what it is today. I started lifting about a year after I started up with Glocks, and now that I've been lifting for several years, including lots of deadlifts and Farmer's Walks, I get better results with WHAT FEELS LIKE a looser grip. But I'd bet that what feels like a moderate grip now is far stronger in terms of overall numbers than it was when I thought I was about to crush the magazine well.


Okie John

[nwhpfan]

Honestly, I felt like I was watching a Din Mak video.....

I coach and teach a lot on a different subjects and one thing I've learned - is to reach somebody sometimes you search for a different way of saying the same thing. But then again, I don't really know what he's getting at.

For me me, I hold the gun enough so the front sight hardly leaves the target and if it does, it comes back so I can fire right away. I tend to tell people to search for this result and adjust hand pressure, wrist angle, etc. until the results is recieved. I also put skateboard tape on my grips... skin plus grip tape helps a lot.

[ER_STL]

I think I know exactly what he's describing, although I don't know how I would achieve it by watching his video alone.

Watch slow-motion video of someone shooting a handgun who's doing this - knowingly or unknowingly. The gun will recoil up and back as expected, but the support hand thumb will remain pointing forward. While it looks like the support hand is breaking contact, the gun returns to the original POA and regains the same alignment with the support hand it had prior to the shot. I believe this is the result Ron's expecting with what he's describing - the support hand has a level of give or pliability in the flesh of the hand that allows the gun to move to some extent. The hands don't break apart from shot to shot but the support hand's not glued to the frame.

I take a very firm grip on the gun and I mash my support hand into the frame by torquing it into the gun. I would hardly call my hands 'pliable' and if I don't apply enough force the gun will recoil up and back but it will not return to the same alignment within my support hand. I would guess that what happens in that case is what Ron's demonstrating when he's pulling his hand away in the second video. But, my current grip has become a very natural way for me to hold a pistol - especially a Glock, which I predominantly shoot. I'd like to give what he's describing a try but it seems counter to what I've developed into habit....a crushing grip that mashes my hands into the frame (and thus leaves very little pliability in my hands).

Interesting stuff...

[BaiHu]

Crappy shooter, but lifetime martial artists viewpoint, so beware:

I think he's trying to explain the balance b/w hard/soft, which is a really common martial arts 'voodoo' conversation.

Let me put this in simpler terms, which is what he was doing with his visual aids.

If I take a gun and put it in a vice with hard wood or metal rails and no texture, then that gun will still pivot.

If I take that same gun and put it in a vice with leather, rubber, hard rubber, textured rubber, then that gun will pivot a lot less.

The problem with this example is that it's relative to the 'meatiness and pliability' of the gripper as compared to the 'texture and rigidness' of the pistol grip. This is one of the reasons why I personally don't like Glocks. Most 'meaty' handed people I know like Glocks, b/c their meaty hands 'pliably' fill the void. Whereas my thin and less meaty hands need a lot of contouring and texture like a P30.

This is why the handshake example is a poor or confusing one. A gun grip is not alive and does not 'change' b/w pliable and rigid. However, people's hands do. I can switch b/w being pliable or rigid quickly in order to 'chase' someone's hand in order to maintain control.

I think his video on wrist 'rigidity' is a must after watching this one. I think the two make more sense together.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qXXuUzNcZ_o

[Jay Cunningham]

Watch slow-motion video of someone shooting a handgun who's doing this - knowingly or unknowingly. The gun will recoil up and back as expected, but the support hand thumb will remain pointing forward. While it looks like the support hand is breaking contact, the gun returns to the original POA and regains the same alignment with the support hand it had prior to the shot. I believe this is the result Ron's expecting with what he's describing - the support hand has a level of give or pliability in the flesh of the hand that allows the gun to move to some extent. The hands don't break apart from shot to shot but the support hand's not glued to the frame.

This relative motion of the gun and support hand during shooting to me is a "tell" and indicates that a strong grip has not been achieved, no matter how proper it may look. IMO the support hand needs to move with the gun with no relative motion.

[JHC]

This is why the handshake example is a poor or confusing one. A gun grip is not alive and does not 'change' b/w pliable and rigid. However, people's hands do. I can switch b/w being pliable or rigid quickly in order to 'chase' someone's hand in order to maintain control.

I think his video on wrist 'rigidity' is a must after watching this one. I think the two make more sense together.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qXXuUzNcZ_o

Yes that vid was more understandable. I do the wrist tension. And like Surf has observed about them, Glocks "grip angle" maligned by many is very much my favorite for how it favors that "down" wrist for both hands.

[JHC]

Ron, himself, is very strong. It seems like he has been finishing in the top ten of many matches for 30+ years.

Yeah I noticed on the vid BaiHu linked to; he's got those sloping traps. I've come to associate that with "farmer strong". ;)

[DacoRoman]

Ron Avery talks about training grip strength.
http://youtu.be/e8_w3fxnZss

So it would appear that he does believe in having a very stong grip, but judging by the pliable grip video, that the palmar aspect of the hands should be kept from being rigid and hard in such a way that grip surface area interface is reduced.

I think this is fascinating and will be playing around with it. I will focus on a strong grip but one that allows my hands to mold around the grip as much as possible.

[Surf]

This is the first that I have seen these video's and first I have heard of the "pliable hand" method referenced to shooting. I do note that I use a presentation where my elbows are pointing more outward as opposed to being oriented in the downward direction. By locking onto the pistol in a good master grip where the support hand fingers are the lock, when we extend the pistol with elbows outward this makes a clamping like effect with the heels of our hands on the side grip panels crushing the pistol from side to side.

While I have good 360° contact I don't have as much force or crush from the front strap to the backstrap and not nearly as much as I have in side to side forces crushing inward. This does leave my hands a bit more relaxed especially with my primary hand which allows me to use my preferred trigger technique very well. Very little tension in my trigger finger which allows it to move quickly or freely with a straight press to the rear and pretty much non-existent side force on the trigger, with less finger fatigue. This also allows me to keep any meaty parts of my hand off my pistol where my trigger finger meets the hand.

I could see commonalities in my technique and what Avery is describing. I am sure I have discussed this method in greater detail elsewhere, probably on this site, so I will avoid typing it all out again.


Yes that vid was more understandable. I do the wrist tension. And like Surf has observed about them, Glocks "grip angle" maligned by many is very much my favorite for how it favors that "down" wrist for both hands.In my area and in my shooting circles, Glocks were pretty much non-existent or "taboo" when I first dabbled in them. Pretty much everything I knew or learned was due to self discovery. One of the big things I learned was that obtaining a good wrist lock was much more natural or consistent, with a greater force and minimal effort purely due to the grip angle on the Glock. While others lamented about the lame Euro gun and Euro Luger like grip angle of a 2x4 block of a grip, I pretty quickly found out the asset of the angle. I caught so much shit over this "voodoo" grip angle wrist lock talk way way back, but I stuck to my guns on this topic. I remember several years later when I saw a video where Dave Sevigny commented on this same thing, and later heard Vogel comment on it. It was nice to have my opinion that I had arrived at being validated by shooters of their caliber.


Ron Avery talks about training grip strength.
http://youtu.be/e8_w3fxnZss

So it would appear that he does believe in having a very stong grip, but judging by the pliable grip video, that the palmar aspect of the hands should be kept from being rigid and hard in such a way that grip surface area interface is reduced.

I think this is fascinating and will be playing around with it. I will focus on a strong grip but one that allows my hands to mold around the grip as much as possible.Having a strong grip is always a plus. You can have a grip that is twice as strong as someone else which also means that your relaxed or "pliable" grip is still much stronger than the other guy.

[scw2]

By locking onto the pistol in a good master grip where the support hand fingers are the lock, when we extend the pistol with elbows outward this makes a clamping like effect with the heels of our hands on the side grip panels crushing the pistol from side to side.



Surf, I've heard of this technique as you described below, but how does that work in practice? I guess what always confused me is the heel of the hands gripping together, but when you grip the gun your strong hand heel is basically on the same side and in contact with the heel of your support hand. Is it just more the inward pressure of the two hands pressing together? Is the difference also about where the inward force is largely localized, more equally distributed for your method versus what some shooters having more of the grip pressure directed higher up on the gun? Thanks!

[JustOneGun]

Surf, I've heard of this technique as you described below, but how does that work in practice? I guess what always confused me is the heel of the hands gripping together, but when you grip the gun your strong hand heel is basically on the same side and in contact with the heel of your support hand. Is it just more the inward pressure of the two hands pressing together? Is the difference also about where the inward force is largely localized, more equally distributed for your method versus what some shooters having more of the grip pressure directed higher up on the gun? Thanks!


I'm not sure how Surf does it. Obviously it is not just pressing the heels of the hands together. Most people press the support side heel into the top of the palm or the pads of the knuckles on the primary hand. It just depends on how our hands are constructed.

I've always found that most of this is semantics until my arthritis got bad. When I have a good solid thumbs forward grip the inward pressure I place between the hands is not crushing. It really just keeps everything in place. For those of us with arthritis pressing inward more and having less of a grip on the primary hand is less painful while still getting a nice solid grip.

[MGW]

Surf, I've heard of this technique as you described below, but how does that work in practice? I guess what always confused me is the heel of the hands gripping together, but when you grip the gun your strong hand heel is basically on the same side and in contact with the heel of your support hand. Is it just more the inward pressure of the two hands pressing together? Is the difference also about where the inward force is largely localized, more equally distributed for your method versus what some shooters having more of the grip pressure directed higher up on the gun? Thanks!

Also not Surf but what I discovered recently is feeling like I'm rotating both forearms in as I press out.

[JHC]

Surf, I've heard of this technique as you described below, but how does that work in practice? I guess what always confused me is the heel of the hands gripping together, but when you grip the gun your strong hand heel is basically on the same side and in contact with the heel of your support hand. Is it just more the inward pressure of the two hands pressing together? Is the difference also about where the inward force is largely localized, more equally distributed for your method versus what some shooters having more of the grip pressure directed higher up on the gun? Thanks!

When the light bulb went on regarding the elbows out (Surf has described) and my support hand index finger locks into it's position under the outmost part of the trigger guard, my support hand thumb drumstick/heel is very much pressing in against the side of the grip/frame and there is actually a gap of about 3/8" between the drumsticks of the two thumbs. I've shot a lot with them touching but this gap has gotten me out further on the gun and higher on the gun and improved control. Note my hands are not thick and beefy. Sort of thin.

[Irelander]

Also not Surf but what I discovered recently is feeling like I'm rotating both forearms in as I press out.

This is what I have been experimenting with and finding good results. It feels very natural to do this for me.


When the light bulb went on regarding the elbows out (Surf has described) and my support hand index finger locks into it's position under the outmost part of the trigger guard, my support hand thumb drumstick/heel is very much pressing in against the side of the grip/frame and there is actually a gap of about 3/8" between the drumsticks of the two thumbs. I've shot a lot with them touching but this gap has gotten me out further on the gun and higher on the gun and improved control. Note my hands are not thick and beefy. Sort of thin.

When I do this my support hand drumstick is pretty much pushing on the slide release. It feels good but I do sometimes experience the slide not locking back on the last shot. Depends how much torquing I am doing with elbows out.

Does your support hand index finger contact your trigger finger at all when its locked around the trigger guard?

[JHC]

This is what I have been experimenting with and finding good results. It feels very natural to do this for me.



When I do this my support hand drumstick is pretty much pushing on the slide release. It feels good but I do sometimes experience the slide not locking back on the last shot. Depends how much torquing I am doing with elbows out.

Does your support hand index finger contact your trigger finger at all when its locked around the trigger guard?

Support drumstick is not reaching the slide release and and support hand index finger is tip is just touching the back of trigger finger.

[Clobbersaurus]

I'm just a shooting duffer, but I tend to think that we've collectively wrapped ourselves around the axle with the grip strength issue. It's so subjective that it confuses shooters, especially new ones.

I mean really, how much grip strength does one need to control a handgun? With the exception of some larger calibers, slides can be retarded from movement with simple thumb pressure. We're not talking about huge amounts forces applied to a shooter during the firing process. Is it really necessary to grip the gun so hard that you are visibly shaking, then back off a bit (as some instructors explain)? I've read about guys going through the COC program to chase improved grip strength and wonder why its needed. I tend to think if you are a normal, able bodied person with average grip strength, you are probably good to control most pistols under recoil. And the best analogy I have heard is: "grip the gun like you would a hammer"

I think there is more juice to be squeezed with support hand placement, how you apply pressure (squeeze, crush, etc) and the positioning of your wrists and elbows.

[SLG]

I'm just a shooting duffer, but I tend to think that we've collectively wrapped ourselves around the axle with the grip strength issue. It's so subjective that it confuses shooters, especially new ones.

I mean really, how much grip strength does one need to control a handgun? With the exception of some larger calibers, slides can be retarded from movement with simple thumb pressure. We're not talking about huge amounts forces applied to a shooter during the firing process. Is it really necessary to grip the gun so hard that you are visibly shaking, then back off a bit (as some instructors explain)? I've read about guys going through the COC program to chase improved grip strength and wonder why its needed. I tend to think if you are a normal, able bodied person with average grip strength, you are probably good to control most pistols under recoil. And the best analogy I have heard is: "grip the gun like you would a hammer"

I think there is more juice to be squeezed with support hand placement, how you apply pressure (squeeze, crush, etc) and the positioning of your wrists and elbows.

That is all true, if you are happy with normal or average performance. If you want to shoot at high levels, grip strength is pretty important. With all the different things that top shooters do, it is hard to say you "have" to do X. However, grip strength is pretty universal, and almost all that I know grip pretty hard.

A simple analogy: Anyone can rock climb, but the best have way more grip strength than the duffers.

[Clobbersaurus]

That is all true, if you are happy with normal or average performance. If you want to shoot at high levels, grip strength is pretty important. With all the different things that top shooters do, it is hard to say you "have" to do X. However, grip strength is pretty universal, and almost all that I know grip pretty hard.

A simple analogy: Anyone can rock climb, but the best have way more grip strength than the duffers.

I guess what I'm trying to get at, and maybe I didn't explain myself well, is that grip pressure is very subjective. Is it necessary to have super human grip strength to shoot well?

I grip the gun hard. At least I think I do. But perhaps I'm not gripping it hard enough? I feel if I'm really crushing hard, that I'm way too tense to do anything other than static shooting.

And it's a very hard thing to teach new shooters. I've had instructors run down a line shaking students hands, hard, and say this is how hard they grip the gun. Then you see the new shooters just crushing away on the gun and not being able to focus on anything else because they are focussing on their grip so much.

I do see your point, and if my grip strength were better overall it would probably be a good thing. But is Vogel level grip strength really necessary for most shooters, even those at a very high level? It's a question I've had for a while, and hoping my duffer level shooting isn't suffering because of my average grip strength.

I appreciate the discussion, this is a great thread.

[SLG]

I don't think super human grip strength is needed for anything a human can do:-)

Vogel's grip strength definitely helps him to be where he is. As does Jerry Miculek's etc...

I wouldn't focus on it above other fundamentals, but once you can shoot pretty well, playing with grip can help.

I've often said I try and break the gun with my grip. That's really not true, it is an exaggerated way of saying "grip it hard". I think the vice with leather on the jaws is a good way to look at it. Hard, but pliable.

[psalms144.1]

I don't think super human grip strength is needed for anything a human can do:-)

Vogel's grip strength definitely helps him to be where he is. As does Jerry Miculek's etc...The last time I went to SHOT, I took my much better half along with me. We met Jerry at the S&W booth, wonderful fellow. Shook my hand, made appropriate noises. Shook my wife's hand and IMMEDIATELY said: "You have a great grip. Do you shoot competitively? Do you want to?"

So, I guess grip strength matters to some folks!

[scw2]

The last time I went to SHOT, I took my much better half along with me. We met Jerry at the S&W booth, wonderful fellow. Shook my hand, made appropriate noises. Shook my wife's hand and IMMEDIATELY said: "You have a great grip. Do you shoot competitively? Do you want to?"

So, I guess grip strength matters to some folks!

Haha, that's great . How did he react to her question?

[Mr_White]

Clobbersauras,

I basically tend to agree with you about the obsession over raw grip power that I see expressed sometimes. Though I do use the example of backing off until not shaking....

Grip = subjective, for sure. It's also muddied all to hell by mind-language-interpretation issues. And different people get high level work done with a fairly narrow range of grip variations, but variations nonetheless. The subjectivity and communication issues are big. There are people who especially when they are just starting out will sometimes really limp grip the gun and have no concept of how hard a 'pretty hard' grip is. To some people my firm grip is shockingly firm. To others it ain't squat (Vogel and Miculek probably.)

One thing that's nice about the Captains is that they get an objective number on grip instead of just a bunch of subjective terms. So with the Captains as a frame of objective reference, I don't think one has to be able to close a #2 or #3 to shoot at a high level. I'm sure it helps for the people who are able to do so. Grip is fundamental to shooting but so are other things. I do think I'd feel like I'd want more grip strength if I couldn't close the #1. I couldn't quite close the #1.5 when I hurt myself and quit using them. I think I can still close the #1, but I have pretty much forsaken the Captains because of the injury risk. I'm sure I'd be better off with more grip strength. Not sure how much better off though, and definitely not better off if I hurt myself.

Everyone doesn't have to do everything the same way to reach a high level. Some examples:

Vogel is renowned for his grip strength, uses the Captains.

Stoeger is no weakling but he doesn't use the Captains at all, just does pull ups.

Sevigny seems to have elbows rolled up and out more than a lot of other shooters.

Vogel's grip structure comes apart under recoil when used by some people who don't have his grip strength (like when I try to do it his way.)

Grauffel puts his support hand index finger on the front of the trigger guard and almost no one else does.

That's just about arm/grip structure and pressure. If we added the different approaches to reconciling cross dominance, shooting with front sight vs. target focus, schemes of movement into and out of position, etc., we could make this list of variations very long I think.

[David S.]

I do my best shooting with a strong grip (whatever that means, subjectively) and fairly relaxed shoulders. If I tighten up my shoulder muscles, my otherwise tight grip goes to hell and my weak hand breaks loose each shot.

I'm new to applying lateral (pec deck) pressure to the gun. Generally I find that I am more likely to tighten up my back/shoulder muscles (in a bad way) when applying lateral pressure.

Cheers,
David

[Clobbersaurus]

One thing that's nice about the Captains is that they get an objective number on grip instead of just a bunch of subjective terms. So with the Captains as a frame of objective reference, I don't think one has to be able to close a #2 or #3 to shoot at a high level. I'm sure it helps for the people who are able to do so. Grip is fundamental to shooting but so are other things. I do think I'd feel like I'd want more grip strength if I couldn't close the #1.

This is interesting, as it puts a quantifiable number to questions I have had for a while. For those that don't know, the COC #1 gripper is 140lbs.

I know I wouldn't be able to close a #1.

Thank you Mr. White, now I'm curious what COC gripper I can close, and I'm off to do more research about grip strength...

[Maple Syrup Actual]

I don't use COC but we do have graduated grip trainers at my gym up to 150 lb. I don't use them but I do 2" bar pullups, among other things, and I can snap a 150 closed loudly. I don't know how much further I could go. I think I could probably close a 2, but I'm not sure. I alternate my grip on a 4-plate deadlift so my grip strength isn't crazy huge, I know that.

Anyway, the stronger I get, the less my guns recoil, whether I'm trying to crush them or not. I think there's a really big advantage to a good grip. If it wasn't important to reduce relative motion between your hand and the gun, why stipple and tape and checker? Unless you can somehow know that the gun will stay locked to your skin, and return to position with your palms...but even then, if you give it less distance to travel, you probably reduce the recoil time.

I mean not that splits are the be-all-end-all or anything close, but in my experience, a more controlled gun is a faster gun.

[GJM]

I think holding the gun firmly contributes to accuracy as much or more as helping with splits, as the harder you hold it, the rougher/faster you can get away with the trigger press. Conversely, the less you grip the pistol, the better your trigger press has to be.

[taadski]

I think holding the gun firmly contributes to accuracy as much or more as helping with splits, as the harder you hold it, the rougher/faster you can get away with the trigger press. Conversely, the less you grip the pistol, the better your trigger press has to be.

Agreed, although extra tension associated with over gripping, especially when the shoulders/chest/core get involved, can really exacerbate flinch/P.I.P. type symptoms in a lot of folks. I think consistency of grip such that the gun returns to the same spot every time is a much more desirable focus than having folks try to squeeze the bejesus out of the thing.

t

[GJM]

Agreed, although extra tension associated with over gripping, especially when the shoulders/chest/core get involved, can really exacerbate flinch/P.I.P. type symptoms in a lot of folks. I think consistency of grip such that the gun returns to the same spot every time is a much more desirable focus than having folks try to squeeze the bejesus out of the thing.

t

Hey, you are supposed to be driving!

I think part of the equation is the weight of the gun and trigger. Heavier gun/lighter trigger easier to be relaxed than light gun/heavy trigger (Glock).

[Mr_White]

I think holding the gun firmly contributes to accuracy as much or more as helping with splits, as the harder you hold it, the rougher/faster you can get away with the trigger press. Conversely, the less you grip the pistol, the better your trigger press has to be.



Agreed, although extra tension associated with over gripping, especially when the shoulders/chest/core get involved, can really exacerbate flinch/P.I.P. type symptoms in a lot of folks. I think consistency of grip such that the gun returns to the same spot every time is a much more desirable focus than having folks try to squeeze the bejesus out of the thing.

t


Hey, you are supposed to be driving!

I think part of the equation is the weight of the gun and trigger. Heavier gun/lighter trigger easier to be relaxed than light gun/heavy trigger (Glock).

I think you guys are right on. Gun returning consistently to same spot seems to me to be both more important than raw grip strength, and also enhanced by having more raw grip strength.

Light gun/heavy trigger people being bigger on crush grip than heavy gun/light trigger people is something I feel like I have noticed as a bit of a pattern too - or maybe I am imagining that because that pattern would make sense to me.


I do think I'd feel like I'd want more grip strength if I couldn't close the #1.

I was thinking about this, and I think all I did was rephrase "I'm happy enough with my shooting as it currently is, so I feel like the level of grip strength I currently have is fine." I think in reality that's all I really said there. And implicit to what I said is that I think more grip strength is fundamentally an advantage. Kind of makes me want to dig out my Captains and try to be even more careful with them this time. We'll see.

[LSP552]

Light gun/heavy trigger people being bigger on crush grip than heavy gun/light trigger people is something I feel like I have noticed as a bit of a pattern too - or maybe I am imagining that because that pattern would make sense to me.



I agree with this. For me personally, I have to grip my Glocks harder than my SIGs for best results. I also seem to have more grip margin of error with the heavier guns.

[nwhpfan]

I thought I would share a few things about grip for me. It's only been a few years that I've tried to take my shooting to the "next level" and really evaluate what I do.... and in that process I looked at grip. I had this idea based on some information I found that "grip" was like one of the most important things out there and I needed to learn how to choke out recoil so there was none. I did the COC for a short time too and really didn't feel I got much out of it. My hands were often tired and I had some minor injury set-backs. Then I learned about riding the recoil which was more about griping in a predictable manner so the gun rises and falls consistently. This was much more effective because it also came at a time where I really learned how to call shots and follow the sights at high speed.

Here is a video of me shooting at high speed from 7 yards where the target is the -0. I fire 3 shots and as you can see, there is little to no recoil. I am the one facing up range if you don't recognize that other guy (http://www.shooting-performance.com/).

https://youtu.be/owwUp-IrIYM

Now check out this other video... I start it after I ran 25 yards as part of the Defoor Pistol Test #1 and I shoot 6 rounds from 25 yards. You'll see a drastic different in observed recoil.

https://youtu.be/Es-JYvWJrOQ?t=23s

I want to share that when I did these, I "just shot." I gave very little thought to my grip; I just did it.... At 7 yards I don't tell myself to choke out the recoil and at 25 yards I don't tell myself to ride it. I don't tell myself to squeeze the grip harder close and less from far, but as example, the force I applied to the grip at 7 yards, I cannot squeeze that hard at 25 yards and pull the trigger with the care I need to hit that 25 yard shot because I can't looses my trigger finger with the rest of the hand so tense. I do know for me, to reduce splits I need to work through loosening the trigger finger with a tighter grip from farther away. It simply takes more time behind the gun being aware of what is going on and working to do what I want.

As for grip, here is an excellent lesson (https://youtu.be/Xl1urjYlsZM)from Mike Seeklander that I think really puts it all together.

[Surf]

As for grip, here is an excellent lesson (https://youtu.be/Xl1urjYlsZM)from Mike Seeklander that I think really puts it all together.


Surf, I've heard of this technique as you described below, but how does that work in practice? I guess what always confused me is the heel of the hands gripping together, but when you grip the gun your strong hand heel is basically on the same side and in contact with the heel of your support hand. Is it just more the inward pressure of the two hands pressing together? Is the difference also about where the inward force is largely localized, more equally distributed for your method versus what some shooters having more of the grip pressure directed higher up on the gun? Thanks!I haven't met Mike and this is the first time I have seen this video or heard him explain this, but this is pretty much how I use my grip. Many people will explain the thumbs forward grip incorrectly where they place the support hands heel into the open panel area then wrap the fingers under the trigger guard, which is incorrect. First contact of the support hand should be with the index finger under the trigger guard. I actually use the word "chop" under the trigger guard. We should then lock the support hands fingers and our support hands thumb is generally facing upwards. As we extend we grind into the grip panels as our support hands thumb rotates forward and inline of the muzzle. The finger lock and this thumb rotation clamps the heels of the hand as the weapon extends. With the fingers locked, the heels of the hands act like a crushing vise as we extend. I often call it side to side pressure, but in reality it is more like pressure based around 7-8 o'clock and 4-5 o'clock on the grip. I also have a method where I show students the pressure differences without even having a pistol in their hands. Kinda hard to explain, but I probably did a write up on it somewhere.

I have some differences in how I explain it and I will tell people that once they get the lock and with the weapon extended, think of using an elbow rotation outwards and not down. If you do it on your own you will feel the pressure difference in the heels of the hand. I am not going full bowed outward with the elbows, but pressure created from elbows wanting to go out and up. This drives pressure on the upper heels of the hand almost thinking about rolling the grip up into the slide, but obviously not onto the slide. I let the body skeletal mechanics do a great deal of the work which is indeed supported by muscular tension, but I don't have excessive muscular tension in the hands. I grip hard with the hand muscles, but with my preferred trigger manipulation type I need "pliability" for a lack of better word to run the trigger.

All in all Mike Seeklander summed it up fairly accurately in how I set my grip. I will note that with Glocks I do like to suggest more of a rotated and locked wrist as it fits the angles of the Glock and the way it naturally wishes to aim. With a Sig or 1911 my support hand rotation is much less, but there is still that locking of the tendons happening.