Heckler and Koch trigger return spring tool?

[Guinnessman]

I have decided that I need to take the plunge and learn how to replace the magical trigger return spring in my P30's. I would like to switch my V1 to a TLG and swap out the TRS to the heavier TRS. Is this tool worth buying? http://www.hkparts.net/shop/pc/Trigger-Return-Spring-Tool-For-All-HK-Pistols-260p16031.htm

Thanks in advance for the help. I have bookmarked several of the references to changing this magical and frustrating spring. ;)

[BCL]

I have decided that I need to take the plunge and learn how to replace the magical trigger return spring in my P30's. I would like to switch my V1 to a TLG and swap out the TRS to the heavier TRS. Is this tool worth buying? http://www.hkparts.net/shop/pc/Trigger-Return-Spring-Tool-For-All-HK-Pistols-260p16031.htm

Thanks in advance for the help. I have bookmarked several of the references to changing this magical and frustrating spring. ;)

I have one and it makes changing the TRS much, much easier.

[HCM]

It would be worth it at twice the price.

[The Apprentice]

Worth it. Takes the magic right out of it.

[BaiHu]

Slight thread de-rail. I'm having a hell of a time with the light V1 LEM, b/c I think the take up is too soft/light. Does the heavier TRS make the 'take up' heavier??

[JodyH]

Slight thread de-rail. I'm having a hell of a time with the light V1 LEM, b/c I think the take up is too soft/light. Does the heavier TRS make the 'take up' heavier??
What I wrote in another thread:

I find the "light LEM" to be an all around shitty trigger.
It basically does away with all the LEM positives and enhances the negatives.
But hey, it's what all the thumbsucking HKPro's like...

Basically by using the light TRS you're turning the LEM into a M&P or Glock trigger with a long mushy takeup and a long, slow reset but a decent light break.
It makes for a decent one shot per second range trigger and feels good in slow dry fire, but sucks to shoot fast and as a threat management trigger.
and

LEM spring basics:
Initial trigger travel "takeup" weight is pretty much all TRS.
As you near the hammer release you start to compress the FPB spring and mainspring this is the "ramp" and is mostly affected by the TRS and FPB springs with a little mainspring.
Just before hammer release you have a "wall" which is where you finish compressing the mainspring (which was mostly pre-cocked by the action). This is almost all mainspring with a little TRS/FPB.
The reset is pretty much all TRS.

The elbow spring and flat spring are in there as well, but they are constants that you can't tweak (although the nickel plated flat spring will smooth things up).

[BaiHu]

What I wrote in another thread:


and
Jody,

This is my experience going on 2 years. Does the heavy TRS make the take up less mushy? Meaning is it firm once replaced?

[LSP972]

Does the heavy TRS make the take up less mushy? Meaning is it firm once replaced?

Yes. Makes for a much better "street trigger".

.

[BaiHu]

Yes. Makes for a much better "street trigger".

.
So there is hope for my LEM experiment if I get the heavier TRS and this tool? Thanks!

[breakingtime91]

So there is hope for my LEM experiment if I get the heavier TRS and this tool? Thanks!

I really, really, really like the TLG set up. Great trigger IMO

[LSP972]

So there is hope for my LEM experiment if I get the heavier TRS and this tool? Thanks!

In that thread Jody referenced, I mentioned that I ditched my "light" LEMs after the second unintentional discharge on a press-out. My guns all have the heavy (square spring stock) TRS now, and I changed them the old-fashioned (i.e., collossal PITA) way. That tool didn't come along until later. I did purchase one, though I haven't had cause to use it yet. Those who have seem to swear by it, which is an encouraging sign.

.

[BaiHu]

In that thread Jody referenced, I mentioned that I ditched my "light" LEMs after the second unintentional discharge on a press-out. My guns all have the heavy (square spring stock) TRS now, and I changed them the old-fashioned (i.e., collossal PITA) way. That tool didn't come along until later. I did purchase one, though I haven't had cause to use it yet. Those who have seem to swear by it, which is an encouraging sign.

.
I might just send them to HK for a tune up/check up and let them replace them. Is that going to be insane cost wise?

[JodyH]

Probably $100 with shipping.

[BaiHu]

Probably $100 with shipping.
Cool. Thanks. Not bad. They need it anyway so I'll call them tomorrow.

[RJ]

Slight thread de-rail. I'm having a hell of a time with the light V1 LEM, b/c I think the take up is too soft/light. Does the heavier TRS make the 'take up' heavier??

Sorry to unbolt another road wheel on this train, but I shot a P2000SK lite LEM Saturday back to back with my VP9. I was stunned how light the take up was; I specifically was hoping for a slow, medium weight take up for a CCW trigger to allow me a moments pause as the dude is pulling his cell phone out of his pocket. Kind of like what I remember in the distant past shooting a double action revolver.

It felt like a toy gun; there just wasn't any 'heft' to the thing to give me confidence it would not ND by, say, having pocket lint caught in the trigger guard. It was that light.

I was kinda disappointed to be honest. I decided to wait for the VP9c. Glad to hear there are other heavier options out there, though.

PS: What is the 'TLG' variant?

[Cincinnatus]

PS: What is the 'TLG' variant?
A combination of heavy TRS, some lighter internal springs (such as the FPB), a standard hammer spring, and a nickel-plated sear spring.

http://www.hkpro.com/forum/hk-reference-library/168700-spring-reference-chart-different-lem-variants.html

[JodyH]

I shot a P2000SK lite LEM Saturday back to back with my VP9. I was stunned how light the take up was; I specifically was hoping for a slow, medium weight take up for a CCW trigger to allow me a moments pause as the dude is pulling his cell phone out of his pocket.
But all the top HKPros have light LEM's in their pistols.
You can tell because of the ultra high resolution images they take of them asking if the microscopic mold line inside the frame is normal or should they call H&K customer service?
They did shoot 15 FLAWLESS rounds through it though, and at 10' they put most of the shots inside the outline on a B27.
All due to the magic of the lite LEM.

[breakingtime91]

But all the top HKPros have light LEM's in their pistols.
You can tell because of the ultra high resolution images they take of them asking if the microscopic mold line inside the frame is normal or should they call H&K customer service?
They did shoot 15 FLAWLESS rounds through it though, and at 10' they put most of the shots inside the outline on a B27.
All due to the magic of the lite LEM.

thats what i heard, especially the last part.

[breakingtime91]

so question, does the tlg lean more towards a light lem or a medium/standard lem?

[Guinnessman]

But all the top HKPros have light LEM's in their pistols.
You can tell because of the ultra high resolution images they take of them asking if the microscopic mold line inside the frame is normal or should they call H&K customer service?
They did shoot 15 FLAWLESS rounds through it though, and at 10' they put most of the shots inside the outline on a B27.
All due to the magic of the lite LEM.

Don't hate on the "Pro." That's the best place in the world to buy used HK's! Well in some instances its not the best, coloring the letters is pretty damn stupid IMHO.

[BaiHu]

All of my LEMs are stock V2 variants (7-7.5# triggers). I never understood the allure of the V1 light LEM. I always figured I wasn't sophisticated or accomplished enough to appreciate the difference. But then again, I actually like (a lot) the stock AUG and S&W SD9VE triggers.
I just couldn't find a V2 when I went for the LEM. [emoji53]

[YVK]

I am probably 10-15K through my lighter than light LEMs. I am yet to ND with any of spring combinations, and I am hovering somewhere at 0.19-0.25 splits where I can still see sights and all the way down to 0.14 where I can't. I do find hitting upper A zone at 25 yards somehow easier with this than with V2.
Then again, I don't manage street threats.

[RJ]

But all the top HKPros have light LEM's in their pistols.
You can tell because of the ultra high resolution images they take of them asking if the microscopic mold line inside the frame is normal or should they call H&K customer service?
They did shoot 15 FLAWLESS rounds through it though, and at 10' they put most of the shots inside the outline on a B27.
All due to the magic of the lite LEM.

Sad, really, I'll likely never aspire to that level. :cool:

To be serious, though, I would still like to see a 'regular' LEM pistol and will keep it in mind for future ref.

Cinncinatus, many thanks for the link on the TLG version.

[Luke]

... and S&W SD9VE triggers.

Your the only other person I've ever heard mention that. I LOVE that trigger. Which is odd.

[LSP972]

Don't hate on the "Pro." That's the best place in the world to buy used HK's! Well in some instances its not the best, coloring the letters is pretty damn stupid IMHO.

Actually, for a long time it was a great place. Yes, there were some of the dilettantes Jody speaks of, but no large-scale derp; the moderators saw to that. It approached this forum, in terms of a place to get accurate, timely information exchange.

The VP9 changed all of that.

Now, all of the "I can buy TWO Glocks for what one HK costs!" nimrods, and others who were kept away by the snobbery/high prices/what-have-you, have flocked to the site, infested it, and become instant experts. It devolved so rapidly, before we realized something was amiss, it had become the GlockTalk of HK stuff.

There are still some nuggets to be had, but for the most part I visit there now for the entertainment value. A real shame, because PF.com is, AFAIK, now the last bastion of reason and sensible gun forums.

.

[LSP972]

Your the only other person I've ever heard mention that. I LOVE that trigger. Which is odd.

Well, I shoot anywhere from a one or two to a dozen SD9/40/VE "Improved Stigmas" every week (its a real popular item amongst the thugs who actually BUY their iron- or, I should say, get their baby momma to buy it for them, but I digress), and its trigger is VASTLY improved over its predecessor SW9/40/VE series… the original Sigma, known to many as the Stigma.

The SD series Improved Stigma is actually a rather excellent value for the money. If one of these was all I had, I wouldn't use it to shoot myself…;)

.

[Guinnessman]

I just got off the phone with HK, and they said the cost to convert V1 to V2 LEM, and add new customer supplied night sights would cost around $100 for shipping, parts, and labor. They mentioned that they no longer support the TGS LEM FWIW.

[breakingtime91]

Weird, wonder why

[TCinVA]

I just got off the phone with HK, and they said the cost to convert V1 to V2 LEM, and add new customer supplied night sights would cost around $100 for shipping, parts, and labor. They mentioned that they no longer support the TGS LEM FWIW.

With a set of roll pins it's stupid easy to replace the firing pin block spring and main spring yourself. The TRS is the only real bugger...but somewhere around here JV posted a trick with masking tape he used to resolve that.

[JodyH]

I just got off the phone with HK, and they said the cost to convert V1 to V2 LEM, and add new customer supplied night sights would cost around $100 for shipping, parts, and labor. They mentioned that they no longer support the TGS LEM FWIW.

Weird, wonder why
Because it directly affects the firing pin block safety plunger.
They'd be in a world of shit if the weaker spring resulted in a non drop safe pistol... especially if it was dropped and fired.
A product liability/personal injury lawyers wet dream right there.

[breakingtime91]

Because it directly affects the firing pin block safety plunger.
They'd be in a world of shit if the weaker spring resulted in a non drop safe pistol... especially if it was dropped and fired.
A product liability/personal injury lawyers wet dream right there.

so is the tlg safe? this is the first time I've heard reference that it may not be.. seeing as its more medium ground between the v1/v2

[JodyH]

so is the tlg safe? this is the first time I've heard reference that it may not be.. seeing as its more medium ground between the v1/v2
Yes it's safe.

But the manufacturer specifies a stiffer spring.
By installing a lighter spring in the firing pin block safety they take on the liability if anything goes wrong.

The FPB spring returns the plunger to the safe position.
If a build up of crap gummed up the FPB plunger to the point the lighter spring could not return it to the safe position, the primary drop safety is now disabled.
They would be fools to take on and support that liability when they cannot control how the end user maintains their pistol.

[BobLoblaw]

I dropped a heavy TRS in a V1 and thought it was the TLG variant. So now I need a lighter firing pin block spring and a nickel-plated sear spring?

[BaiHu]

I spoke to HK today and it seems pointless for me to switch to a V2 from a V1. It only makes the trigger heavier and does nothing to make the take up firmer/heavier. It's the take up to the 'wall' that bothers me. Odd since I really have no issues with a DA/SA in comparison.

[breakingtime91]

I dropped a heavy TRS in a V1 and thought it was the TLG variant. So now I need a lighter firing pin block spring and a nickel-plated sear spring?

not sure, I bought a used p2000 and it was the TLG variant. I just assumed it had a heavier trs..

[JodyH]

I spoke to HK today and it seems pointless for me to switch to a V2 from a V1. It only makes the trigger heavier and does nothing to make the take up firmer/heavier. It's the take up to the 'wall' that bothers me. Odd since I really have no issues with a DA/SA in comparison.
Whoever you spoke to was incorrect.

Take your slide off and watch how the trigger works.
With the LEM the mainspring (and cocking piece aka: "inner hammer") is almost completely pre-cocked by the action.
For the initial takeup the ONLY springs involved are the TRS and the elbow spring (the elbow spring basically keeps the hammer from flopping around and tension on a few other parts).
The flat spring is in there as well but it's more of a spring that creates drag and holds tension on parts (like the hammer catch) instead of adding any real weight to the trigger pull.
There's also the trigger bar detent and spring that create some drag while keeping the trigger bar in the correct alignment.
It's that way until the trigger goes back far enough to start compressing the FPB spring (which is right before the sear trips). It's that way in order to block the striker from impacting a primer unless the trigger is pulled fully rearward.
This is also when the outer hammer rotates far enough to finally contact the inner cocking piece which rotates and trips the sear which drops the hammer.
It's only when the cocking piece starts to rotate that the mainspring is compressed by the trigger.
The initial takeup weight is pretty much all TRS.
There is a 3-4# difference in the initial takeup weight between a V1 and a V2 and it's all due to the TRS.

[JodyH]

not sure, I bought a used p2000 and it was the TLG variant. I just assumed it had a heavier trs..
Every V2 P2000 I own or have looked at comes with the lighter FPB spring installed.
The TLG variant is a P30 modification, it's the P30 which comes with the heavier FPB spring installed.
To make a TLG you're putting a P2000 FPB spring into a P30.
To determine which TRS you have, the light spring is round wire and usually gold in color, the heavier spring is square wire and usually black in color (there's also a "Match" TRS that's round and black).
As to the nickel plated flat spring, it came out because maritime customs officers were having issues with the standard spring rusting. I've never installed one because after a few thousand rounds my standard spring had polished itself to where it feels just fine.

[breakingtime91]

Every V2 P2000 I own or have looked at comes with the lighter FPB spring installed.
The TLG variant is a P30 modification, it's the P30 which comes with the heavier FPB spring installed.
To make a TLG you're putting a P2000 FPB spring into a P30.
To determine which TRS you have, the light spring is round wire and usually gold in color, the heavier spring is square wire and usually black in color (there's also a "Match" TRS that's round and black).
As to the nickel plated flat spring, it came out because maritime customs officers were having issues with the standard spring rusting. I've never installed one because after a few thousand rounds my standard spring had polished itself to where it feels just fine.

ok cool. The person I bought it from had it sent to hk to do the springs so I'm not worried about it. Really enjoying this thread, learning a lot about the pistol.

ps. mines defiantly the heavy. square wire

[JodyH]

With a P2000, buy a V2 and shoot the shit out of it. If you do 12 hour shifts on a boat in the ocean buy the nickel plated flat spring.

With a P30, buy a V2 and shoot the shit out of it. If you do 12 hour shifts on a boat in the ocean buy the nickel plated flat spring. If you want to knock a pound or so off the trigger weight right at the hammer trip install a P2000 FPB spring.

I don't mess with the mainspring weight on either one of them because I like SOLID primer whacks (that's why I like hammers).
I don't mess with the light TRS because for me it makes the takeup too light which exaggerates the "ramp up" to hammer trip the LEM has, it also makes for a weaker, slower reset.
The light TRS makes the entire trigger travel feel vague to me, I like some tension against my finger throughout the entire trigger stroke.
I don't mess with the nickel flatspring because the regular one polishes in just fine with use and I live in the dry ass desert and don't have to worry about corrosion.

[BaiHu]

Whoever you spoke to was incorrect.

Take your slide off and watch how the trigger works.
With the LEM the mainspring (and cocking piece aka: "inner hammer") is almost completely pre-cocked by the action.
For the initial takeup the ONLY springs involved are the TRS and the elbow spring (the elbow spring basically keeps the hammer from flopping around and tension on a few other parts).
The flat spring is in there as well but it's more of a spring that creates drag and holds tension on parts (like the hammer catch) instead of adding any real weight to the trigger pull.
There's also the trigger bar detent and spring that create some drag while keeping the trigger bar in the correct alignment.
It's that way until the trigger goes back far enough to start compressing the FPB spring (which is right before the sear trips). It's that way in order to block the striker from impacting a primer unless the trigger is pulled fully rearward.
This is also when the outer hammer rotates far enough to finally contact the inner cocking piece which rotates and trips the sear which drops the hammer.
It's only when the cocking piece starts to rotate that the mainspring is compressed by the trigger.
The initial takeup weight is pretty much all TRS.
There is a 3-4# difference in the initial takeup weight between a V1 and a V2 and it's all due to the TRS.
Thank you. So this means the V2 will have 3-4# more of take up pressure?

[JodyH]

Thank you. So this means the V2 will have 3-4# more of take up pressure?
Yes, If you only swap around the TRS you will feel a significant difference in the takeup and reset.

[BaiHu]

Yes.
Thank you very much. That is not what I was told.

[JodyH]

Thank you very much. That is not what I was told.
They were probably thinking DA/SA where the DA trigger pull is compressing the mainspring from the start.
Find a V2 and you'll immediately feel the difference in takeup.

[JodyH]

BTW: the TRS pliers are so good it's almost like cheating, well worth $15.

[BaiHu]

BTW: the TRS pliers are so good it's almost like cheating, well worth $15.
So I might as well buy the springs and tool myself and find your video? Save the money.

[JodyH]

I made a thread showing the springs working.
https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?17804-LEM-trigger-explained

[JodyH]

So I might as well buy the springs and tool myself and find your video? Save the money.
Buy the parts and the pliers and swapping out the TRS is not hard at all.
The heavy TRS is the easy one to install, the light one always wanted to roll out of position.
Before buying the pliers I had it down to 5 minutes and that included a beer and function testing.
It's even easier now.

[BaiHu]

Thanks. I'll let you know how it goes.

[JodyH]

I made a post on here somewhere that gave some tips and tricks to making it easier, I'll try to dig it up.

[JodyH]

I don't use any tools for prying around inside the frame.
For the TRS I drop it into position with the one leg behind the trigger.
I then stick one 1/16" brass punch through the "big" trigger pin hole on the left side of the frame and use it to gently pry the spring down into place.
Then I take the other 1/16" brass punch and push it through the "small" trigger pin hole on the right side of the frame and push it all the way through (pushing the other punch out as I go).
Then I use the trigger pin to push that punch out.
Voila! Done.
Occasionally I have to use the small flat screwdriver to adjust the spring alignment, but I just push it around, I never pry on anything.


I can't remember exactly who had the suggestion of taping the trigger forward when installing a new trigger return spring in H&K's, but they are a genius.
I swapped in a new TRS in my P2000 in about 2 minutes with minimal frustration.

Punch out trigger pin.
Remove old spring.
Start trigger pin back in "large" hole just to the point where it protrudes into the spring cavity.
Insert 1/16" punch in "small" hole just to the point where it protrudes into the spring cavity.
Wrap tape around the back of the trigger and around the front of the trigger guard to hold the trigger in the forward position.
Insert new TRS with needle nose pliers.
Use the nose of the pliers to compress the spring.
Press 1/16" punch through spring once it's aligned.
Now use punch to help wiggle TRS as you use the trigger pin to push out the punch.
Make the final alignments and push the trigger pin all the way in.
Function test and hit the range.

[Guinnessman]

A combination of heavy TRS, some lighter internal springs (such as the FPB), a standard hammer spring, and a nickel-plated sear spring.

http://www.hkpro.com/forum/hk-reference-library/168700-spring-reference-chart-different-lem-variants.html

Thanks for the reference. All I need is the heavy TRS, and my V1 becomes a V2. I will order the springs along with the tool soon.

[YVK]

There is a 3-4# difference in the initial takeup weight between a V1 and a V2 and it's all due to the TRS.

I had checked that with a drop weight set awhile ago and all I got was about 2 lbs take up difference between light and heavy TRS.

[GJM]

I am probably 10-15K through my lighter than light LEMs. I am yet to ND with any of spring combinations, and I am hovering somewhere at 0.19-0.25 splits where I can still see sights and all the way down to 0.14 where I can't. I do find hitting upper A zone at 25 yards somehow easier with this than with V2.
Then again, I don't manage street threats.

Wow, .14 with a LEM, that takes being super relaxed. Is weed legal in Utah?

[JodyH]

I had checked that with a drop weight set awhile ago and all I got was about 2 lbs take up difference between light and heavy TRS.
When I did my weight comparisons I had just installed a brand new TRS in my P2000 and was comparing it to a well used P30L.
If I get bored this evening I'll put a new light TRS in my P2000 and compare it to a new heavy TRS in the same pistol.
With the time change making it dark at 4:45 cabin fever sets in and I start taking things apart and putting them back together like a meth head.

[JodyH]

Wow, .14 with a LEM, that takes being super relaxed. Is weed legal in Utah?
Damn skippy.
My LEM splits are .20-.21, I have to get out the VP9 to break into the teens.

[YVK]

Damn skippy.
My LEM splits are .20-.21, I have to get out the VP9 to break into the teens.

So are mine, and if I lose concentration they go up to 0.28.
0.14, and a bunch of 0.15 to 0.19 were a part of me figuring out how fast this thing can physically run. I can't see the sights at that speed, only slide movement. I did have a misfortune to tell GJM about it, so now he trolls me with it. And with my 0.76 P30 draw at Leatham's.

Is p2000 TRS wound in the opposite direction to P30 TRS?
Just wondering if they are different springs.

[JodyH]

Is p2000 TRS wound in the opposite direction to P30 TRS?
Just wondering if they are different springs.
Same spring, just the P30 has one longer leg to capture the slide lock lever axle.
You can use a P2000 TRS in a P30 but the slide lock axle will come all the way out when you disassemble the gun (like it does on the P2000's).
The last TRS I replaced in my P30 was with a P2000 spring because that's all I had at the time, made no difference in the trigger feel.
I thought I had one of each to take a picture of but I'm out of P30 springs right now.

[GJM]

YVK isn't making that draw up, here he is learning to do it with TGO:

http://i250.photobucket.com/albums/gg251/GJMandes/Mobile%20Uploads/image_zpsv3pur2jd.jpeg (http://s250.photobucket.com/user/GJMandes/media/Mobile%20Uploads/image_zpsv3pur2jd.jpeg.html)

[TCinVA]

I dropped a heavy TRS in a V1 and thought it was the TLG variant. So now I need a lighter firing pin block spring and a nickel-plated sear spring?

"Need", no. It's really a very minor change on the overall package and you can skip it easily. It's very easy to replace, it's simply not necessary. Honestly if I were doing it over again I would just replace the mainspring and leave the rest of the V2 alone.

[BobLoblaw]

With a P2000, buy a V2 and shoot the shit out of it. If you do 12 hour shifts on a boat in the ocean buy the nickel plated flat spring.

With a P30, buy a V2 and shoot the shit out of it. If you do 12 hour shifts on a boat in the ocean buy the nickel plated flat spring. If you want to knock a pound or so off the trigger weight right at the hammer trip install a P2000 FPB spring.

I don't mess with the mainspring weight on either one of them because I like SOLID primer whacks (that's why I like hammers).
I don't mess with the light TRS because for me it makes the takeup too light which exaggerates the "ramp up" to hammer trip the LEM has, it also makes for a weaker, slower reset.
The light TRS makes the entire trigger travel feel vague to me, I like some tension against my finger throughout the entire trigger stroke.
I don't mess with the nickel flatspring because the regular one polishes in just fine with use and I live in the dry ass desert and don't have to worry about corrosion.

Thanks. That light FPB spring made a big difference.


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