Not my words: Cops in the US would've executed him...

[BaiHu]

I just saw this posted recently and felt like this could be an interesting discussion.

This could probably go into mindset/tactics or LEO, but I figured it was a good start here.

Okay folks, have at it. There's plenty in here starting with culture, economics, mindset, etc.

For the record, I think the below example of how things should be handled universally is impractical at best. Could it be used as a tactic in special circumstances? Sure, but why not bean bag the guy or use some other LTL option.

The below still has risks that are seen/unseen. Such as sending a lunatic out on the street with a machete and watch 30 cops show up so you can loot the other half of the city/town while they're busy?


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7GYM_jA3PfA

[JodyH]

Just because a tactic works doesn't mean it's correct.
Run that same situation force on force 10 times and I bet a cop is going to get seriously injured 1/3 of the time or more.

[BaiHu]

Just because a tactic works doesn't mean it's correct.

Agreed. I think it was nyeti who said, "luck can often breed bad tactics" or something to that effect.

[JodyH]

Pig pile a guy with a machete... yea... no.
I might be willing to try a Taser if someone like Nyeti was backing me up with a 12 gauge.

[JM Campbell]

Dude was pretty complacent and not focused on one officer, it worked there.....but as we've seen in the other thread about the home invasion with the sword defence, blades cause some damage. If the man had one good thrust/lunge on a cop would this be a good tactic while the cops bowls/intestines flop onto the ground?



Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-N900A using Tapatalk

[Hambo]

Had this guy made a committed charge you'd have seen an officer severely injured. The recycle bin the cops drag around doesn't do a thing to take away from machete dude's reach with the blade. We'd have tried to Taser or beanbag his ass, but our policy with less lethal was that there had to be lethal cover. Maybe less lethal would have worked, maybe not, but I'm not volunteering to get decapitated.

[BehindBlueI's]

Meh. Not rewarding the asshole with a click.*

The situation dictates the response. There are options I have when I have 10+ backup officers I don't have when I'm alone. There are options I have when someone is half-ass about hurting someone or themselves and is mostly just attention whoring or posturing for his buddies then when someone is really wanting to kill someone.

Execute is not the same as using lethal force.

The end.

*the asshole who posted the video, just to be clear. Clicks are like money.

[41magfan]

I'm a firm believer that there are a host of less & non-lethal options available if you have well planned and practiced contingencies in place. But the only reason this guy didn't hurt anyone in this incident is because he simply wasn't forcing the issue.

These behaviors are fairly common and they're routinely paraded as inappropriate examples for a "kinder and gentler" response to similar threats.

[Jackdog]

Here's a video from Central America where cops tried to arrest a guy with a knife. All the Cops were armed and he still managed to stab several before he got shot. Starts at 4:00.


http://youtu.be/75RTkGbiJpk

[Saur]

Here's a video from Central America where cops tried to arrest a guy with a knife. All the Cops were armed and he still managed to stab several before he got shot. Starts at 4:00.


http://youtu.be/75RTkGbiJpk

gotta sign in to see it, but if its the one i'm thinking about its also a good video on the importance of maintaining mobility and avoiding bad positioning

[TGS]

The basic premise of the video is correct.....he probably would have been shot in America. Sure, many of these people could be taken down with force while subjecting LEOs to greater personal risk.

So what? The LEOs have just as much a right to return home without death or greivous bodily harm as anyone else.....I don't personally see how a violent perp's life is worth more than anyone elses.

In America, no LEO owes any EDP, scumbag, ect their life or limb. There is no special relationship created by you being a violent criminal that places a Constitutional duty on LEOs to protect your life, especially when you're threatening others. That's well established in our culture and case law. If anyone wants to change that dynamic, they've got a lot of work ahead of themselves.

[Tamara]

1) "Executed"...? You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.

2) You are presuming that the world would not be a better place with that guy out of it.

[Kyle Reese]

The general public seems to have a warped view on how officers' should deal with individuals armed with edged weapons. Some gems that I've heard include;

The police should shoot the knife out of their hand

Wrestle them

Learn kung-fu

Choot 'em in the leg

etc etc etc.

[PPGMD]

Seems like another good use for the Leeroy Jenkins take down method.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XofU00pqqXE

[HCM]

Agreed. I think it was nyeti who said, "luck can often breed bad tactics" or something to that effect.

I think it is a Chuck Haggard saying: " fortuitous outcomes reinforce bad tactics"

Anything can work once. That doesn't mean it will work on a consistent basis.

[voodoo_man]

If you bring shields to a sword fight, you lost before you woke up that morning.

[GardoneVT]

If you bring shields to a sword fight, you lost before you woke up that morning.

That's exactly the point.

Observe the reactions of the narrarator and the interviews. They're edited from the position that Mr Machete is a decent man who would have received an unjust bullet because he's a decent fella who deserves help.

The scary thing about that video is not that one guy with a blade could tie up fifty officers for more then 30 minutes. Nor is it that unarmed combat with a dude packing a blade is now official policy.

No, the scary thing to me is that an act so stupid ancient Romans would have laughed at it is not only held up as an example to follow, but that the effective and necessary tactics of us Yankees is denigrated as violent and backwards. Pretty soon well get fined for swearing in public.

[voodoo_man]

That's exactly the point.

Observe the reactions of the narrarator and the interviews. They're edited from the position that Mr Machete is a decent man who would have received an unjust bullet because he's a decent fella who deserves help.

The scary thing about that video is not that one guy with a blade could tie up fifty officers for more then 30 minutes. Nor is it that unarmed combat with a dude packing a blade is now official policy.

No, the scary thing to me is that an act so stupid ancient Romans would have laughed at it is not only held up as an example to follow, but that the effective and necessary tactics of us Yankees is denigrated as violent and backwards. Pretty soon well get fined for swearing in public.

It is something else is it not? The way the British, and other "non-violent" countries, take on armed persons.

The whole thing is one big hypocrisy, from sparklefart's "this doesn't happen anywhere else in the world" to the fact that even Russia went pro-gun because its citizens needed to be able to defend themselves, following Israeli ideology.

My take on the subject is simple, and I am sure other LEO's (and switched on CCW folks - had to throw that term in there ;) ) agree, we want to save lives, all lives, but the moment a person decides that they want to seriously injure and/or kill us, we have no problem protecting the general public from that threat. After-all, if they are willing to injure and/or kill a public servant in full uniform, what would they do to the seemingly defenseless citizenry?

I rather not give them the opportunity.

[TCinVA]

Here's a video from Central America where cops tried to arrest a guy with a knife. All the Cops were armed and he still managed to stab several before he got shot. Starts at 4:00.


http://youtu.be/75RTkGbiJpk

Because that guy meant business.

Drummer Rigby was run down and beheaded in the street by two jihadists armed with edged weapons.

The British police did not try to close distance on those guys. They waited on an armed response unit to show up and deal with them. Which they did...killing both of them.

If one wished to be dimwitted about it, one could say they...executed them.

It seems, then, that even the kinder, gentler policing method shown in the video has its limits...and that even the kinder gentler police have need to shoot a motherfucker in the face.

[Jackdog]

Because that guy meant business.

And the cops did not. The cop with the AK that hit the subject with the baton barely gave him a love tap. Pretty pathetic strike.

[TCinVA]

I rather not give them the opportunity.

Right.

Nobody owes anyone else the chance to kill or maim them in a criminal assault. That's really the argument that a lot of these dunderheads want to make. If they feel so strongly on it they can go handle the problems.

I'll stick to my methods.

[RevolverRob]

If they feel so strongly on it they can go handle the problems.

With all respect to our police officers who do an excellent and thankless job every day of the week. It would be my preference if we had a little natural selection on this front in our society. Let's let the cops have a night off and have folks take personal responsibility for their problems. When we get up tomorrow, I bet there are some different tunes about the cops. AND there will be some different tunes about personal protection.

-Rob

[JodyH]

Just issue the Cops nunchucks.

[BJXDS]

I just saw this posted recently and felt like this could be an interesting discussion.

This could probably go into mindset/tactics or LEO, but I figured it was a good start here.

Okay folks, have at it. There's plenty in here starting with culture, economics, mindset, etc.

For the record, I think the below example of how things should be handled universally is impractical at best. Could it be used as a tactic in special circumstances? Sure, but why not bean bag the guy or use some other LTL option.

The below still has risks that are seen/unseen. Such as sending a lunatic out on the street with a machete and watch 30 cops show up so you can loot the other half of the city/town while they're busy?


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7GYM_jA3PfA

Harry Callahan - Nothing wrong with shooting as long as the right people get shot!

[pablo]

I just saw this posted recently and felt like this could be an interesting discussion.

This could probably go into mindset/tactics or LEO, but I figured it was a good start here.

Okay folks, have at it. There's plenty in here starting with culture, economics, mindset, etc.

For the record, I think the below example of how things should be handled universally is impractical at best. Could it be used as a tactic in special circumstances? Sure, but why not bean bag the guy or use some other LTL option.

The below still has risks that are seen/unseen. Such as sending a lunatic out on the street with a machete and watch 30 cops show up so you can loot the other half of the city/town while they're busy?


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7GYM_jA3PfA

After an incident like this, you'll notice that they'll ask anyone in that lives in the neighborhood about how grateful they are that the guy with the machete wasn't killed by the police.

[Chuck Haggard]

If the cops in the US always "execute" people with knives, how do we explain so many incidents like the famed Seattle Swordsman?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QtRgweQxXi8

[runcible]

TCinVA:
The British police did not try to close distance on those guys. They waited on an armed response unit to show up and deal with them. Which they did...killing both of them.

---

My understanding is that they both lived.

Even afterwards, the British courts have demurred on executing them, after all.

[TAZ]

"It can be done without firing a shot"... Sure and I can wear a dildo strapped to my head in church, but should I???

What a total bunch of retards... the lot of them. I vote, the next time some asshat wannabe Emperor starts dropping bombs on them we let him.

[TCinVA]

My understanding is that they both lived.


By Jove you're right.

I'm sad now.

[Drang]

"It can be done without firing a shot"...

My usual retort is to ask where they teach, and what their rates are.