View Full Version : Trigger freeze when shooting fast?
Always heard about this but thought people were weird and what not.. Until 10 minutes ago I had it happen twice back to back. Was shooting bill drills for the first time ever and first round froze after the 5th shot and second after the 4th. I'm talking paralysis of the finger, just sat that, my mind still yelling at it to go (maybe this is the issue?) and it just stopped. Weirdest thing ever. Anybody have any tips on not getting trigger freeze?
And if this is posted in the wrong section please forgive me.
breakingtime91
10-30-2015, 02:42 PM
Always heard about this but thought people were weird and what not.. Until 10 minutes ago I had it happen twice back to back. Was shooting bill drills for the first time ever and first round froze after the 5th shot and second after the 4th. I'm talking paralysis of the finger, just sat that, my mind still yelling at it to go (maybe this is the issue?) and it just stopped. Weirdest thing ever. Anybody have any tips on not getting trigger freeze?
And if this is posted in the wrong section please forgive me.
what were your splits/overall time?
Peally
10-30-2015, 02:43 PM
I can't even remember the last time I ever had it happen, but dry fire and not locking up the muscles in my strong hand hasn't really failed me yet. Even with less skilled shooters I rarely see it, and when I do a lot of times it's a result of not being familiar with that gun's reset or tensing/flinching the hands weird. YMMV but I think there's a few causes, mental ones included.
Splits were .15 and .16, never shot a whole one because by the time I was done with my finger forgetting its job it had been a second or two. The time on the run with 5 shots was 1.80 and the one with 4 I have no idea other than draw time which was 1.06 which made me happy and the first split, .15.. other than that I don't know, just cleared it with frustration.
Relax. ;)
There's a timer involved, there is not relaxing lol I get so tense waiting for the buzzer.
Flip and press.
Come all the way off the trigger?
Gray222
10-30-2015, 03:03 PM
Moar bill drill
That's what I'm thinking. I have a few more rounds and am going to try more in a little bit. I never really fire 6 rounds fast. im so used to 2 and then on to the next. I wonder if that's why, ole brain telling me I left out two transitions and need to stop now lol
LSP552
10-30-2015, 03:32 PM
There is a tendency to tighten your grip, including your trigger finger, when trying to shoot faster. Your trigger finger needs to stay relaxed and under control, not tight. I don't flip and press, but I do make sure to run past the reset point.
That's what I'm thinking. I have a few more rounds and am going to try more in a little bit. I never really fire 6 rounds fast. im so used to 2 and then on to the next. I wonder if that's why, ole brain telling me I left out two transitions and need to stop now lol
Are you saying you typically only fire two shots at a time, but this time you decided to fire 6 shots?
Are you saying you typically only fire two shots at a time, but this time you decided to fire 6 shots?
Yes.
But not on a bill drill. This is the first time I've ever tried a bill drill. Although self defense is very important, right now my main focus on shooting is gaming. Specifically uspsa. In uspsa all paper is 2 shots to neutralize, so everything I've been doing for a while had been 2 shots then transition.
Ive been thinking about this, and I think I was trying to hard. Some of the other drills I've done I've had no problem maintaining fast splits, prior to the start of this drill I was telling myself to pull the trigger as fast as I could. I think I was just simply wanting it to bad. My conscious mind is a bad shooter with a lot of nerves and issues and my sub conscious mind is the opposite.
Clobbersaurus
10-31-2015, 05:17 PM
Wannabe, is it possible that you may have not let the trigger fully out to the reset point and you may be thinking that it's trigger freeze? I've done that, mostly with Glocks, and it feels an awful lot like trigger freeze. It usually happened between the 3rd and 5th round for me. I think it was something to do with wanting to grip the gun harder with the duration of the recoil of the gun.
Just a thought.
That is very possible too! When I get some more ammo I'm going to shoot some more of these but probably not too many.
HopetonBrown
10-31-2015, 05:45 PM
I don't think you fully let the trigger out to reset. I've done it before.
JodyH
10-31-2015, 06:11 PM
Grip tighter with the support hand and relax the primary hand.
There's a timer involved, there is not relaxing lol I get so tense waiting for the buzzer.
As counterintuitive as it sounds, the way to get a really fast bill drill time and prevent trigger freeze is to relax. You can't move very fast when you are tense.
ETA: Didn't read the whole thread first, what JodyH said as well.
StraitR
10-31-2015, 09:23 PM
So, is this a case where gun gaming has created tangible training scars? Serious question, and I'm certainly not poking at Wannabe, just trying to see if anyone else read all this the way I did. I don't shoot USPSA, so I had no idea that each target requires two hits to neutralize, but if that is so engrained due to the game that anything other than double-tap/controlled pairs throws the shooter into vapor lock, that can't be a good thing.
I'd say no. But what do I know. If this was a bad guy he still would have got shot 5 times in less than a second and the 6th round would have came .60 seconds later lol.
I think what through me into vapor lock was wanting and trying my hardest to pump out 6 rounds and I stopped because I chose to stop out of frustration. I did have trouble sending those rounds but the delay and freeze was not what it makes it out to be. If I shoot 5 rounds at a pace of .15 and then freeze up and the 6th comes out at .60 that's a pretty big difference on a timer and what I would consider an issue.. Real life? I'd think the extra time wouldn't be an issue. I also feel like it would be a natural reaction, subconsciously shooting is always easier for me. Could be totally way off here but I feel like if gaming was engraining bad habits idpa would be worse just for the sole fact that they have Tripple the rules. But that is for another story.
ALSO!!! On Steele that had to fall I routinely shoot way more than two rounds at it so don't worry, I keep things even! :)
HopetonBrown
11-01-2015, 03:46 AM
So, is this a case where gun gaming has created tangible training scars? Serious question, and I'm certainly not poking at Wannabe, just trying to see if anyone else read all this the way I did. I don't shoot USPSA, so I had no idea that each target requires two hits to neutralize, but if that is so engrained due to the game that anything other than double-tap/controlled pairs throws the shooter into vapor lock, that can't be a good thing.
There are courses of fire that require 6 rounds on a target. Have never seen anyone just shoot those twice because of "training scars". Steel only requires 1 hit, never seen anyone shoot at them twice, either.
That Guy
11-01-2015, 08:02 AM
I've seen IPSC guys struggle with having to shoot something other than two per target (a good example is shooting the Viking Tactics 1-5 drill). Everyone does get the job done, but you can clearly hear stops in the cadence every two shots.
Which is not to say that shooting games will get you killed in da streetz or anything like that, but in my opinion only ever training to shoot a target once or twice is suboptimal.
What kind of gun are you shooting?
I struggle with this on 1911's when I have been accustomed to shooting Glocks for awhile and break them out at the end of a range session. It only happens for me when transitioning to very close/fast targets, where I'll typically shoot .13-.15 splits. Anything slower than that, like a bill drill at 7 yds where I am typically shooting .17-.18 hits, and it doesn't happen.
For me, dry fire and live fire fixes it, but I haven't spent a significant enough time with the 1911 in the past year to fix it.
This was with a M&P9.
All good info, thanks guys!
StraitR
11-01-2015, 04:43 PM
I'd say no. But what do I know. If this was a bad guy he still would have got shot 5 times in less than a second and the 6th round would have came .60 seconds later lol.
I think what through me into vapor lock was wanting and trying my hardest to pump out 6 rounds and I stopped because I chose to stop out of frustration. I did have trouble sending those rounds but the delay and freeze was not what it makes it out to be. If I shoot 5 rounds at a pace of .15 and then freeze up and the 6th comes out at .60 that's a pretty big difference on a timer and what I would consider an issue.. Real life? I'd think the extra time wouldn't be an issue. I also feel like it would be a natural reaction, subconsciously shooting is always easier for me. Could be totally way off here but I feel like if gaming was engraining bad habits idpa would be worse just for the sole fact that they have Tripple the rules. But that is for another story.
ALSO!!! On Steele that had to fall I routinely shoot way more than two rounds at it so don't worry, I keep things even! :)
In that case, I'd say the same as everyone else, slow down. haha :cool:
There are courses of fire that require 6 rounds on a target. Have never seen anyone just shoot those twice because of "training scars". Steel only requires 1 hit, never seen anyone shoot at them twice, either.
Makes sense, thanks for the clarity. I thought it was a little weird that EVERY target required two shots. :p
For me, dry fire and live fire fixes it,
What do you do in dry fire to help fixing trigger finger freeze? I've done Bill Drills in df a bunch, and I do my best to not cheat my support hand grip. I've not found df that helpful for this, you just don't get that tense as in lf.
What do you do in dry fire to help fixing trigger finger freeze? I've done Bill Drills in df a bunch, and I do my best to not cheat my support hand grip. I've not found df that helpful for this, you just don't get that tense as in lf.
I don't think I do anything in particular to address trigger freeze, i just build muscle memory and familiarity with the 1911 trigger and the problem typically goes away in a couple range sessions. I find I experience trigger freeze the most when I have been shooting Glocks and switch at the end of the same range session.
For bill drills, I try to only go as fast as I can see the sights, rather than rip off 6 shots as fast as possible, so my splits slow down to .17-.18. I generally don't experience trigger freeze in a drill like this. I usually experience it on extremely close targets like a 3-5 yd target where I am going to fire two shots as fast as possible with generally a rough sight picture (maybe just instinctively pointing at the center of the target. I'll setup mini-stages or distance change up drills where I am transitioning from a far target that requires a hard front sight focus (25-35 yds), maybe a medium range target and/or a close target like this.
nwhpfan
11-03-2015, 09:58 AM
Trigger Freeze is not a bad thing - necesariliy.
It's no different than trying to lift a weight beyond your max and failing.
Trigger freeze is due to being unable to concentrate and focus at the speed you are trying to achieve. It happens when you push yourself to be better and faster and go beyond than what you have normally done.
Trigger freeze almost always occurs when "you" are going faster than you have gone before. You have to train past this to get faster. You have to learn to keep your mind on all of the things you are doing; perceive it, know it, and do the things needed to do what you are trying to do: move the gun, fire the gun, etc.
The best way to move beyond trigger freeze is to shoot at a speed you are calling your shots. You send the gun into recoil, are aware of what the gun is doing, feel and perceive the gun returning along with your finger and send it back into recoil again. Slowing down is not the simple answer - but the speed you are aware of everything that is going on is important. If you remove the accuracy component you can work on speed for speed sake. Then add the target and dial it in, dial it out, etc.
This is the same reason when you read of the greatest shooters in the world doing hundreds of thousands of rounds of bill drills into a blank berm and simply watching and feeling the gun. Remove the accuracy component and shoot the gun as fast as you can without trigger freezing and see, observe, and know everything the gun and you are doing and feeling.
The more time you spend behind the gun your ability to perceive, understand and be aware becomes faster and you will be able to pull the trigger and track the sights with splits in the teens at 10 yards. You will be able to recall a "sight movie." Things will not slow down, rather your ability to recognize what is going on becomes faster.
Keep in mind that what follows is not a blanket statement the encompases everyone. Also with a pistol .15 splits are highly respectable provided the accuracy standard that you are trying to achieve is being met.
Generally three things happen that cause the hiccup moment. 1 - Short stroking the trigger where we don't let off the trigger far enough to reset and attempt to pull again on a dead trigger. 2 - Trigger finger fatigue, which is a muscular issue, where basically our finger is tired and hits its failure point. 3 - Outrunning our headlights, which is a mental process where our neural pathway fails the speeds at which we desire to pull our trigger.
Grip, hand, finger strength and the biomechanics of how we pull a trigger can greatly influence #1 and #2. #3 is a process of teaching the brain and our pathways via repetition. Not all trigger pull types are the same. Some pull types will be the cause for either slower trigger pull speeds and / or more muscles involved in the pull process which can lead to fatigue and possible freeze issues perhaps more quickly over a training session.
...bill drills into a blank berm and simply watching and feeling the gun. AKA timing drills. That's how I got past my trigger freeze issues. The most common cause of "trigger freeze" is simply not isolating the action of the trigger finger from the rest of the grip. Manipulate the trigger same speed in/same speed out and be sure to go well past the point of reset. Those awesome low teen splits are kind of cool, but I think we all know they aren't vital to winning a match. Ask the ROs that review the timers after running world class shooters at major matches how many low teen splits they see outside of Open Division.
AKA timing drills. That's how I got past my trigger freeze issues. The most common cause of "trigger freeze" is simply not isolating the action of the trigger finger from the rest of the grip. Manipulate the trigger same speed in/same speed out and be sure to go well past the point of reset. Those awesome low teen splits are kind of cool, but I think we all know they aren't vital to winning a match. Ask the ROs that review the timers after running world class shooters at major matches how many low teen splits they see outside of Open Division.
It sounds like at a certain point pure split speed/time has a diminishing return. What sets the winners apart from the losers at that level? Accuracy, movement into/out of shooting positions, general stage strategy?
From what I've gathered, to be a top contender LOCALLY, you need to shoot major, shoot mostly A's with some C's, and move FAST. Shoot fast too but you don't have to rip off .15 splits.. And if you can shoot a Texas star quickly that helps.
I thought the whole point of the bill drill was to brag online? So splits would be very Important lol. My draw is almost 2 seconds so I have to make up time somewhere.
nwhpfan
11-04-2015, 12:43 PM
Regarding splits and winning matches. There are some places, some targets where you will have splits in the teens and get A's. Close and open targets for example... And ask Bob Vogel, or someone who has finished 2nd by 1 single match point out of 2,000, or .0000001% how much a tenth or hundreth is worth. Or how about in a SD situatoin when you have no idea how much time you'll need.
But I think the point of training bill drills, or evaluating your splits, is because shooting very, very fast within a strict accuracy standard is where things get difficult, where things break down. It's "easy" to have a good grip (or think you do) when you are shooting .35 splits at 7 yards. But shooting .25 splits at 25 yards, or splits in the teens at 10 yards is where whatever mistake you are making is evident. Before you can fix something you have to know it's broken....
Make your hardest shots in training....so anything you do in a match or protecting the food court is nothing you haven't done before.
AGR416
11-05-2015, 11:07 AM
I agree that it is a grip issue, gripping too hard with the shooting hand results in less control of the trigger finger, and trigger freeze can occur.
I try to be better at gripping more loosely with my shooting hand when shooting at close targets, but it is hard to isolatedly focus on that aspect in a match.
I shot a match on Tuesday, where I experienced trigger freeze on my last shot.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WQl07L7afmw
I also fumbled a bit on the draw.
Both of these mistakes can also be attributed to the mental aspect as well - I am trying to get out of my turtle mentality, and focusing on speed and efficient movement in both training and smaller matches. I was probably a bit too amped up for this stage, so I lost my focus because I wanted to be super fast. I still won the stage, but I could have shot it .2-.4 secs faster if I had just exerted a bit more control at start and finish.
Mr_White
11-05-2015, 01:49 PM
Trigger freeze comes from tension. The tension comes from trying to go fast. The solution is to relax, which is certainly easier said than done, but that's the answer. The technique of only allowing the trigger far enough forward to reset also aggravates trigger freeze. There's no margin built into the technique, so when tension creeps in and the motion gets short-stroked even a tiny bit...trigger freeze happens.
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