What Discount for BTF Glock 17 ?

[SamAdams]

A buddy of mine has a G17 Gen 3. He bought it new a few years ago. Built in July 2011. He said it was his first Glock (he's a big bore revolver guy). Thought he'd try it because of the G17's "legendary reliability". He took it to his local range and shot one box of ammo through it and got "quite a few" BTFs. (No other types of failures, though.) He went online and read about Glock BTFs. In disgust, he put it in his safe & forgot about it - for several years. Now, he's clearing out some things and wants to get rid of the G17. Wants to fund another revolver purchase. BTW - the one box of ammo he shot was Walley World Win whitebox 115 gr FMJ- cheapest stuff he could find.

He just wants to get rid of the gun. Says he'll trade it for something else. Or, I could buy it - - just name a fair price based on what his experience has been with the gun. He's in another part of the state & I won't have the opportunity to see him or the gun till after Thanksgiving. He's a good, long time friend. I'd trust him with my life (and we have done so for each other in the past - we're like brothers), and I have no problems committing to buying the pistol based only on his description.

A new G17 Gen 3 can be purchased locally for about $ 500. Sales tax adds about another $ 50 to that for a total of around $ 550. What's the most you'd be willing to pay for this barely used, but potential 'problem child' G17 ? What could it cost in time/money/effort to fix such a gun if it does have the problems some have mentioned ? I wouldn't mind a good deal, but I also want to treat my friend right.
Thanks.

[Nephrology]

I think $450 is a fair price. Maybe a little less because of the BTF "problem" (still might just be an ammo issue). Odds are good you can fix the problem with a new OEM RSA and/or aftermarket extractor/EDP.

[JHC]

I'll swag $350-$375, just for the element of risk. I'll bet it tunes up just fine with minimal effort though. I find it pretty difficult to be financially shrewd dealing with friends and will always tilt generous, buying or selling.

[psalms144.1]

Here's the hard part - he's a good friend of yours, so you want to do right by him. The problem is this, in my experience, there's no way to know what, if anything will fix a bad BTF 2010-2012 made Glock. I had five, count 'em, FIVE G19s in that time frame that could not be made to work despite multiple trips back to the factory under warranty. Three of those were replacement guns "hand picked" for me by the factory.

GLOCK will NOT pay shipping for warranty repair on a pistol more than 1 year old, so, if it has to go back to the factory, you have to pay FEDEX to get it to Smyrna. That's expensive - plan on at least $50 on top of the price of the gun. The other option is the "fix it yourself" route. You'll likely need to procure an APEX extractor and the appropriate spring loaded bearing - that's going to run about $100. You'll almost certainly want to get the most current ejector - which means buying a Gen4 trigger mechanism housing, pulling the ejector off of it and putting it onto your 3rd gen TMH. That's less expensive, but more labor intensive. You'll also likely want to get the latest Recoil Spring Assembly - GLOCK went through a LOT of changes to those. All in all, you're probably going to be out $150 or so for parts.

The reality, as I found out, is that some of these 2010-2012 Glock 9mms simply can't be made to work, for reasons unknown. So, I personally wouldn't touch one with a 10' pole. BUT, if you want to help your buddy out and buy a cheap base gun for an experiment, I'd say $350, tops.

Not knowing where you live, if you happen to live within driving distance of Smyrna, that takes some of the worry out - you could just drive it over and have them work on it - which they generally will do for free, with no questions asked.

[SamAdams]

I had five, count 'em, FIVE G19s in that time frame that could not be made to work despite multiple trips back to the factory under warranty. Three of those were replacement guns "hand picked" for me by the factory. . . .

GLOCK will NOT pay shipping for warranty repair . . .

The reality, as I found out, is that some of these 2010-2012 Glock 9mms simply can't be made to work, for reasons unknown.

Crap. That doesn't sound good.

I know this topic has been discussed before, but hoped that someone might know about a currently found cause & cure for this potential problem. As I understand it, a guy could go with good Lawman 124gr FMJ (instead of Walley World 115 white box), have the gun run fine -- and after a couple thousand rounds then the problem could show up ?

[StraitR]

Here's the hard part - he's a good friend of yours, so you want to do right by him. The problem is this, in my experience, there's no way to know what, if anything will fix a bad BTF 2010-2012 made Glock. I had five, count 'em, FIVE G19s in that time frame that could not be made to work despite multiple trips back to the factory under warranty. Three of those were replacement guns "hand picked" for me by the factory.

GLOCK will NOT pay shipping for warranty repair on a pistol more than 1 year old, so, if it has to go back to the factory, you have to pay FEDEX to get it to Smyrna. That's expensive - plan on at least $50 on top of the price of the gun. The other option is the "fix it yourself" route. You'll likely need to procure an APEX extractor and the appropriate spring loaded bearing - that's going to run about $100. You'll almost certainly want to get the most current ejector - which means buying a Gen4 trigger mechanism housing, pulling the ejector off of it and putting it onto your 3rd gen TMH. That's less expensive, but more labor intensive. You'll also likely want to get the latest Recoil Spring Assembly - GLOCK went through a LOT of changes to those. All in all, you're probably going to be out $150 or so for parts.

The reality, as I found out, is that some of these 2010-2012 Glock 9mms simply can't be made to work, for reasons unknown. So, I personally wouldn't touch one with a 10' pole. BUT, if you want to help your buddy out and buy a cheap base gun for an experiment, I'd say $350, tops.

Not knowing where you live, if you happen to live within driving distance of Smyrna, that takes some of the worry out - you could just drive it over and have them work on it - which they generally will do for free, with no questions asked.

^^^^^^^ Kevin hit the nail on the head.

He would get no more than $300 for a Gen 3 around here if he traded it in to a shop. Private sale, $400 would be fair, IF it were functioning 100%, but it's not. With known BTF issue, and the fact that you must pay out to fix it, either through shipping cost to Glock or DIY Apex part swapping. So, I would also agree that $350 is the right price (tops). He has to understand that the issue may not go away easily, or cheaply, or possibly ever. It's not about trying to get it cheaper from him, but rather you not buying it and dumping more money into it (parts, shipping, ammo, gas, etc) than a new one would cost, not to mention the time and frustration.

The only way for him to make more money is by selling it to someone else without disclosing the BTF issue, and that sucks for obvious reasons.

[JHC]

Here is where I'm no help. A friend got his first pistol, I Gen 3 G17 in this vintage in question and got some BTF. I took it and shot it a LOT and could not replicate it. I put an old spare tool steel extractor in it anyway for him and his problem went away. Another shooter recently had a G42 than ran fine with brass but would choke almost every shot with Wolf. I took the gun with the same Wolf ammo and it ran fine. He took it back, it choked. I've no idea how many factors are at work.

[psalms144.1]

As I understand it, a guy could go with good Lawman 124gr FMJ (instead of Walley World 115 white box), have the gun run fine -- and after a couple thousand rounds then the problem could show up ?Yep. Have that issue with my current carry G19 right now, using our super weak issued JHP. Been running strong through 1,500 or so rounds - last two range sessions, starting to get ejection straight up, or to the right. Haven't started getting BTF yet, but I expect it'll come.

As luck would have it, this one has a factory extractor, and I have an APEX FRE sitting in the parts bin, so, hopefully it'll get itself fixed in a hurry.

Contrarily, in my admitted horrible experience, when a pistol BTF'd out of the box, it would BTF forever. This was before the advent of the Apex FRE, of course, so I can't say if that will help or not.

[psalms144.1]

I've not idea how many factors are at work.I think this is the ultimate issue when it comes to Glocks, the dreaded "tolerance stacking." Let's face it, Glocks are cheap. They're designed from the ground up to be inexpensive to produce and market - not surprisingly one of the MAJOR reasons they took the LE world by storm. By the very nature of their inexpensive production design, there's a bunch of slop in the parts. Sometimes things work out great, and you get a pistol that runs like a sewing machine; sometimes you get pistols that don't work at all in one persons hand, but fine in another. I don't know nuthin' about engineering or design, I'm a knuckle-dragging end user. I just know that, prior to 2010, I never met a 9mm GLOCK that didn't run like a raped ape. But, you didn't take one to a bullseye competition, generally. Post 2010, and a bunch of incremental design tweaks, the accuracy is fine (not HK fine, but fine for what it is), but you hear more and more issues with what was previously the gold standard for reliability.

I have NO idea what happened, but I'm betting the combination of design changes, manufacturing changes, and parts changes (tool steel to MIM) all add up to the current pig-in-a-poke situation.

And I'm STILL carrying a Gen4 G19. Unless/until I can scrape up the cash to get a P320/VP9 and they prove to be a LOT better, I'll have the G19/G26 combination on me every day I go to work...

[SamAdams]

Thanks everyone for your comments. My buddy's going to go into the gunshop that has the revolver he wants and will see what they offer him in trade for the G17. We'll see if I'll be willing to match that. -- At this point, I'm not anxious to put a lotta time, money, or hassle into fixing a defensive type pistol.

[HCM]

I wouldn't go above what the shop would give him, $300-350. You can try other ammo but I would assume an Apex FRE and / or a White Sound HRED would be in it's future. The added cost to you for these parts would bring it up to "fair market value".

[ReverendMeat]

I'd say 450 on account of him being a friend of yours, but subtract the cost of an Apex extractor just in case. Plus non LCI SLB. If I were running the shop I'd give him 250 cash, 275 trade. Best friend prices, I'd do 350.

[Sero Sed Serio]

As usual, Psalms144.1 is spot on. Some Glocks have fleas that are almost impossible to exterminate.

I had a Gen. 3 RTF2 19 (an N series, I believe) that had issues right out of the box. An APEX gen. 3 extractor wouldn't fix it. An APEX gen. 4 extractor wouldn't fix it. A gen. 4 ejector wouldn't fix it. Randy Lee at Apex took it in as a test platform to improve his extractors, but I believe that some extreme hand-fitting was involved. I trusted it for carry, but didn't like the chafe of the RTF, and it went to a Pacific NW cop for his duty weapon with full disclosure (and full confidence due to the expert work put into it).

I also had a Gen. 4 FDE 26 that had malfunctions right out of the box. An Apex extractor helped, but I was still getting BTF. This was all with Speer 147 gr. ammo. I filed down the fitting pad almost all the way, and it still wouldn't eject the way that it should. Interestingly enough, there was an inverse relationship with grip strength and ejection pattern--the looser you held the gun, the better the ejection. That one got sold to a buddy with full disclosure for $350.

I'm of the camp that the issues stem from out of spec slides (or extreme tolerance stacking in the slides). Without a lot of work by someone who really understands the system, I think a bad gun is never going to be fully cured absent some very high-end hand-fitting. With at home remedies, they may be made to work, but I think that the operational window is so narrow that I would never trust one for a carry gun.

Bottom line, $350 is a fair price, given the gamble that you are taking, especially since anyone with GSSF can get blue label Glocks for $400. An Apex might fix it, but realistically you are getting a training gun at best.

[JHC]

Interestingly enough, there was an inverse relationship with grip strength and ejection pattern--the looser you held the gun, the better the ejection.

That is interesting as hell. All the more because it can go either way based on the gun.

Say big ole Psalms. ;) Just as Randy Lee observed with he and a large mass mammal shooter on a problem gun, it ran fine for Randy and not for the big guy, Psalms got one or more unfixable guns.

Psalms, what CoC number can you close btw?

So in this scenario, surely this mass/grip strength set up is increasing slide velocity enough to jack up tolerances eh? At least in tighter built new guns perhaps?

OTOH there are guns that reverse everything. Case in point I had an early Gen 3 G19. One with one less pin in the frame. It was fantastic. Well I gave it as a gift to my then soon to be daughter in law who loves shooting so she'd have a G19 to match holsters and mags etc with my son's Gen 4 when she was to head up to AK to join him.

This perfect running OLD Gen 3 was BTF'ing her something fierce and even FTE a few time. She was holding it lightly. When she firmed up her grip it ran fine and continues too.

Things that make you go hmmmm.

[Chuck Whitlock]

Here's the hard part - he's a good friend of yours, so you want to do right by him. The problem is this, in my experience, there's no way to know what, if anything will fix a bad BTF 2010-2012 made Glock. I had five, count 'em, FIVE G19s in that time frame that could not be made to work despite multiple trips back to the factory under warranty. Three of those were replacement guns "hand picked" for me by the factory.

GLOCK will NOT pay shipping for warranty repair on a pistol more than 1 year old, so, if it has to go back to the factory, you have to pay FEDEX to get it to Smyrna. That's expensive - plan on at least $50 on top of the price of the gun. The other option is the "fix it yourself" route. You'll likely need to procure an APEX extractor and the appropriate spring loaded bearing - that's going to run about $100. You'll almost certainly want to get the most current ejector - which means buying a Gen4 trigger mechanism housing, pulling the ejector off of it and putting it onto your 3rd gen TMH. That's less expensive, but more labor intensive. You'll also likely want to get the latest Recoil Spring Assembly - GLOCK went through a LOT of changes to those. All in all, you're probably going to be out $150 or so for parts.

The reality, as I found out, is that some of these 2010-2012 Glock 9mms simply can't be made to work, for reasons unknown. So, I personally wouldn't touch one with a 10' pole. BUT, if you want to help your buddy out and buy a cheap base gun for an experiment, I'd say $350, tops.

Not knowing where you live, if you happen to live within driving distance of Smyrna, that takes some of the worry out - you could just drive it over and have them work on it - which they generally will do for free, with no questions asked.

The RSA dance was with the Gen4. Gen 1-2-3 all use the same RSA for 9mm/.40/.357 in the given frame size.

[Hwikek]

$50 to ship it to Glock? Just this June UPS told me I had to give them over $100 since they said it had to be done by next day air. I learned this when my brand new G19 gave BTF that got progressively worse and gave me quite the temporary flinch since my subconscious seemed to believe bullettime was a real thing. When I explained my situation the guy at the counter said "you're having problems with a Glock? Tell them they need to pay to ship it!" In the end I just caved and got the Apex extractor from the shop I bought my G19 at. Then I had to go back and get a free ejector. Now the gun seems to be running right. I just hope it doesn't change its tune in the near future.

[ST911]

"Next Day Air Saver" is a UPS option and usually saves a few bucks.

[Hwikek]

Now that I think back on it, I can't remember if I took it to Fedex or UPS but thanks for the tip.