Striking with the Muzzle

[Chance]

When using a semi-auto, when, if ever, is this okay? It was my understanding that even minor rearward movement of the slide could push the slide out of battery, and render the pistol unable to fire. So, if you strike with the muzzle, are you working under the assumption you're going to need to clear a stoppage immediately after? Are there certain brands of semi-autos that are more resilient to being pushed out of battery (assuming an active safety isn't holding the slide forward)?

[Kevin B.]

Why are you striking with the muzzle of your handgun?

[voodoo_man]

Why are you striking with the muzzle of your handgun?

Happens sometimes, I've done it a few times.

No issues with gun being in battery

[Kevin B.]

Happens sometimes, I've done it a few times.

No issues with gun being in battery

I understand it happens. I was looking for some context to be able to answer the question better.

[Chance]

Why are you striking with the muzzle of your handgun?

I don't have a specific scenario in mind. I've seen a number of people mention it, however, so I was just curious if there's some accepted doctrine for doing so.

[SouthNarc]

Striking with a handgun is very viable. You can look at muzzle strikes in the supported or unsupported category. Supported would be where you wrap your hand around the slide and thrust forward so the technique does a pretty good job of keeping the gun in battery. The problem with it is that it takes two hands to do and your hand is REALLY close to the muzzle depending on hand size and barrel length. The unsupported one hand strikes can indeed push the muzzle out of battery enough to keep the gun from firing. I think this is probably not much of an issue with your service pistol compared to what I've seen happen with dirty 17Ts but still and all I've seen it happen more than once in training.

A short arc ridge hand type strike with the top of the slide puts FAR more weight and slide mass behind the blow. I think it's the best of the short gun strikes personally.

[psalms144.1]

I've been through training that taught muzzle "jabs" with handguns at contact distance, and, yes, it's likely to push your pistol's slide out of battery when you do it. But, you wouldn't be jabbing with the pistol unless you had your pistol in your hand and were presented with a non-lethal (at that moment) threat that required a strike - not what the pistol is designed for, but if it's what you have in your hand when a "nail" appears, you can use it as a "hammer." It's not going to cause any lasting "harm" to your pistol, if you need transition up the use of force continuum.

I've never seen the supported strike before, sounds interesting. The ridge hand strike does seem like a much mo' bettah solution to any jab, though.

[Mr. Goodtimes]

Maybe this could be one of the advantages of carrying a WML like an X300 on a smaller gun like a G19 or P30. Would the WML not act to protect the slide and muzzle?

Also, with something like a Glock I would think it viable to give the back of the slide a quick tap to lock it back up. The downside to this would be that it requires a second hand.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Sero Sed Serio]

Maybe this could be one of the advantages of carrying a WML like an X300 on a smaller gun like a G19 or P30. Would the WML not act to protect the slide and muzzle?

I knew a Tucson Deputy who was grappling with a suspect who tried to grab the Deputy's Taser off the front of his belt. The Deputy drew his Glock (a 23 I believe), pressed it into the suspect's abdomen, and tried to fire. However, he had pushed the slide out of battery and got a click instead of a bang. Fortunately the suspect understood the situation for what it was and gave up when he heard the clicking trigger.

That scenario gave me another reason to believe that a weapon light is pretty much mandatory on a LE duty weapon. Additionally, I discounted a 34 as a duty weapon because it didn't offer the offset of the 17/19.

I have always wondered about strikes with the light, though. I'm a big proponent of high ready, particularly if moving through a crowd where you have a combination of lethal force threats, non-lethal force threats, and noncombatants (think a party call with shots fired). I've seen pictures of several Glocks broken right at the rail/trigger guard, and the consensus on those seemed to be someone playing around with a vertical foregrip on a pistol and torquing something that shouldn't be torqued. I also saw crime scene photos of a drug rip where a P99 was used to pistol-whip someone multiple times before being fired, and something broke allowing the slide to launch off the frame, and it was later recovered. I always wondered if a solid strike from the high ready (as opposed to a straight-on jab) would be enough to break the dust cover, and if so, would this be enough to render the pistol inoperable if you then had to transition to shooting?

As for a non-light weapon strike, I have always envisioned a straight-on muzzle jab, followed up by an immediate action drill to clear any out-of-battery issues.

[SouthNarc]

The better practice is to NOT shove the muzzle into the adversary to fire but to retract the pistol back to a well indexed retention position.

[BehindBlueI's]

http://olegvolk.net/gallery/d/46877-4/G17_laserlyte_bayonet_1080_edited_web.jpg

[Chance]

http://olegvolk.net/gallery/d/46877-4/G17_laserlyte_bayonet_1080_edited_web.jpg

This will complicate appendix carry.

[1slow]

Holy Plastic Elgin Cutlass Pistol !

[GJM]

I don't have any experience with muzzle striking, but I bet a S&W 1076 would be a winner in this category.

[JHC]

In one of Ayoob's early reviews of the Sig 320 FS he noted how exceptionally resistant the pistol was to being pushed out of battery from the muzzle pressing solidly against something. I found that to appear to be the case with mine.

[voodoo_man]

http://olegvolk.net/gallery/d/46877-4/G17_laserlyte_bayonet_1080_edited_web.jpg

I'll take 2 and with matching aiwb rigs

[Chance]

In one of Ayoob's early reviews of the Sig 320 FS he noted how exceptionally resistant the pistol was to being pushed out of battery from the muzzle pressing solidly against something.

How can you safely test this? Just unload the pistol, push the muzzle into something, and see if the trigger still works?

[JHC]

How can you safely test this? Just unload the pistol, push the muzzle into something, and see if the trigger still works?

That's how I did it against the floor. I was sort of amazed, but I'm easily impressed. ;)

[LittleLebowski]

You can also beat the fuck out of people with the muzzle/buttstock/inserted mag of a carbine.

[Wayne Dobbs]

I have strike experience with three systems: Glock 27 with a ridge strike to the offender's right temple and muzzle strikes at full power with an 870 and M4. All worked well and immediately and the long guns caused the offenders to leave the ground and do an ass over tea kettle flip. Not the best thing to have to do, but in extremis, a viable choice.

[BehindBlueI's]

I have butt stroked a guy with an M-16 who was about to assault a sergeant and I had my hands full...of M-16. We actually aren't trained to do that in patrol rifle school, but are taught about muzzle strikes. Prior military training overrode though, and I'll say it worked really well.

Do they still teach butt strokes with the collapsible stock M4s? I'm guessing it wouldn't be quite the same as the A2 stock was/is.

[41magfan]

Muzzle strikes always struck me (that pun was unintentional, I promise) like this;

• If it goes well, you might be inclined to repeat it. In my experience, repeatedly tempting fate will eventually lead to a bad outcome. Roy Horn and Steve Irwin being just a couple of examples.

• If it goes wrong, and you end up defending yourself in a life-altering criminal or civil action, you’d probably look back at the event in hindsight and think of half a dozen better things to have done. Now, if the casualty were some shitbird with no redeeming value to society, that’s one thing I guess but if the unintended consequence was an innocent or a fellow comrade, I think that might be difficult to live with.

Now having said all that, I’ll qualify that commentary by saying that I view weapon strikes in the same light as warning shots. If you’re justified in using DF, either can be perfectly reasonable options if you can mitigate the risks to yourself and bystanders.

[Beat Trash]

I have two separate incidents that cause me to avoid muzzle striking with a pistol.

The first was early in my career when I was issued a S&W 5906 9mm. Long story shot, I was on the ground, laying on top of a suspect as we were both fighting. I tried to put my pistol to his head to gain compliance/give warning of pending use of force. I did so with more force than I intended, and the front sight and edge of the slide hit his forehead just right, catching the slide on the side of his forehead. My hand followed through pushing the frame of the pistol downward and I ended up ejecting a round from the chamber. As the gun skidded off of his head, the gun chambered a new round. I was now holding a cocked 5906 9mm pistol. Fortunately it forced me to breath and calm down a bit. The head strike rattled the suspect just enough to get his attention and he complied.

That was the last time I have ever tried to jam a pistol into someone's head.

As for out of battery issues, a WML isn't a given. We currently issue the M&P9 to all officers. A WML is an optional purchase for the officer. About 2 years ago, a pair of undercover officers were out with a suspect. Before they had a chance to pat the suspect down, he pulled a gun and tried to shoot one officer. That officer grabbed the suspects gun hand and yelled for his partner to shoot the suspect. The second officer had a Surefire x300U on his pistol. Before he could draw and fire, both the first officer and suspect went to the ground, still fighting for control of the suspect's pistol. The second officer was concerned about a safe angle to shoot the suspect without hitting his partner, as both were thrashing about on the ground. The officer reached in and jammed his pistol into the suspect's abdomen and tried to fire, without success. Twice. After the second failed attempt, the first officer broke free and the second officer pulled back and fired, terminating the threat to both officers.

What had happened is the suspect had "love handles". Even with the WML attached, the suspect's body still managed to cause an out of battery issue with the M&P9. The suspect's love handles absorbed the WML and still caught on the slide enough to cause an out of battery.

The next year at Firearms Familiarization Training, this was discussed and addressed through training. A 3-D rubber dummy that you can shoot was put on the firing line. All officers took turns jamming their gun into the dummy causing an out of battery. They were then instructed to pull the gun back as they continued to pull the trigger until a round went off.

Some pistol designs can go out of battery easier than others. The M&P9 is very easy.

While the attachment of a WML may give one the impression that they are immune to an out of battery because the WML acts as a standoff device, I would not bet my life on it. Remember that as a society, we are becoming fatter and fatter. Fat and flab can easily roll past the WML. And under stress, your hand may not jab in a straight line, but may angle in some fashion. Going at a downward angle can make an out of battery with a WML easier to occur. The suspect in this incident was not grossly obese. In some circles, he would have been described as an average build. Average is a relative term...

The old veteran officers when I came on grew up with their K-Frame Smith revolvers. They warned of using the pistol to give an "attitude adjustment" to someone's head. More than a couple of stories where trigger guards got bent just enough to prevent the trigger from functioning.

I was told that:

A gun is a "shootie thing". Use it to shoot f*ckers with.

A knife is a "pokey jabby thing". Use it to cut f*ckers with.

Anything else that is hard and at hand (PR-24, flashlight, handcuffs) is what you are struggling with a suspect and you need to thump someone.

[KPD]

We have trained for muzzle strikes using long guns for a long time. Never with a pistol though.
The one time I had to muzzle strike a guy with my AR15 I tagged him right where the pectoral muscle and armpit meet. Compliance was immediate and resulted in the suspect simultaneously urinating and defecating himself from the pain.
My first reaction was "cool." After thinking on it more I got to feeling more uncomfortable with the practice and have not done it since with a loaded firearm.

[breakingtime91]

Idk about pistols but muzzle strikes with a carbine have a very positive effect on someone. I think its a valid choice if you have to do it. Lots of good info coming out of this thread.

[breakingtime91]

I have butt stroked a guy with an M-16 who was about to assault a sergeant and I had my hands full...of M-16. We actually aren't trained to do that in patrol rifle school, but are taught about muzzle strikes. Prior military training overrode though, and I'll say it worked really well.

Do they still teach butt strokes with the collapsible stock M4s? I'm guessing it wouldn't be quite the same as the A2 stock was/is.

yes, we had a guy butt stroke someone who got hands on in 2010. He should of just shot the guy but he broke like 4 of his teeth with his stock.

[SLG]

In a life or death struggle, anything goes. Muzzle strikes, especially with a long gun, need to be viewed as deadly force. You can stick a birdcage through someone's sternum.

A ridgehand with a pistol is not a muzzle strike, per se, and should be much less dangerous as long as it isn't applied to the head. Of course hitting someone in the head with a metal bar is usually considered deadly force in modern, American, policing.

Like most aspects of weapons use, this is not something you should add to your toolbag after reading about it on pistol forum. My old team spent a lot of time training on weapons strikes, and went to very specific schools, for weeks at a time, to work on them, among other things.

In the early days of the war in Afghanistan, some members of my team were stuck in a fast moving riot and one of them was taken by the crowd. The remaining members formed a wedge and using muzzle strikes, retrieved my teammate. Gunfire would not be the correct solution to that problem. Like Wayne Dobbs related, a solid sternum strike with a long gun will send people FLYING backwards, and all you will see is their toes as they break gravity. Some of them forever.

[Maple Syrup Actual]

Local ERT (like SWAT but more apologies and maple syrup) guy I know muzzle-punched somebody in the forehead with a carbine. I believe it was a SIG 553. Direct quote "It did leave a mark, but the guy's still breathing as far as I know".

Anyway, I believe Southnarc commented to me on a high-speed run from Vancouver, BC, down to Seattle and back that the nice thing about 1911s is that if you whop somebody with one, they stay whopped. But I no longer remember whom he was referencing.


Finally, semi-seriously, it occurs that a magwell-equipped 1911 or X5, say, could be used like a Clinch Pick: the magwell should protect the mag. So I strongly recommend that someone who carries a metal-framed, magwell-equipped pistol should draw down on a deserving individual at the earliest possible opportunity, stare blankly in their direction while attempting to wink using only their lower eyelid, and ask the following question:

"How'd you like a bit of mutual butt-stroking?"

[Erick Gelhaus]

Haven't had to use a handgun as an impact. Have used a carbine as an impact weapon, including a muzzle strike to a sternum. Had a vortex flash hider on it at the time. In the work world, if policy supports it use, remember to have the selector on safe and the trigger finger somewhere other than on the trigger.

Rotating the weapon sideways and striking with the receiver of a shoulder weapon works as well.

[LtDave]

The HK P7, or any other pistol with a fixed barrel, won't be pushed out of battery by a muzzle strike.

[Dagga Boy]

I have done quit a bit of striking with firearms. It is not optimal, but often you get stuck with a gun in your hand when a war hammer would be preferred. I would highly suggest doing training for this and having some "best practices" in place ahead of time. I sort of winged it on mine and it would have been good to have some techniques in place. I started with N frame revolvers. They were not as easily damaged as smaller guns, and my duty gun "The Hebrew Hammer" obviously got that nickname from something other than shooting people with it. Today....I would not have been using a firearm as an impact weapon as much as I did as a 23 year old with a badge and an N frame in the 80's. I butt stroked and muzzle struck several with an 870 with great effect. The key...safety on, and release the forened to get it out of battery as well. The sad thing with two of the memorable butt stroking incidents were when I was in a "lethal cover" job and had to act because I had the wrong personnel with me handling the non-lethal component, thus requiring action I would rather not have taken. I got much smarter over the years about getting "non-capable" officers off of arrest teams and search teams based on seeing how non-capable officers that lack intestinal fortitude can degrade a situation with in-action.
Muzzle strikes are often required when dealing with combative or non-compliant folks when armed with a long gun. This is something that should be discussed and I would even recommend policy and training at this point as officers are utilizing carbines regularly as a primary weapon.

[Odin Bravo One]

Muzzle strikes are a technique I have used extensively.

There is much more to using it successfully, and legally than can be covered on an Internet forum. If you feel that you need this tool, seek out training from someone who knows what they are talking about on the subject.

[Chance]

There is much more to using it successfully, and legally than can be covered on an Internet forum. If you feel that you need this tool, seek out training from someone who knows what they are talking about on the subject.

Is there a particular name for this variety of training? I'm guessing Craig's class would cover these topics?

[Gadfly]

John Wick likes pistol muzzle strikes, so they must be good.

http://youtu.be/VnPagmeLm-g

[Peally]

I started with N frame revolvers. They were not as easily damaged as smaller guns, and my duty gun "The Hebrew Hammer" obviously got that nickname from something other than shooting people with it.

I'm regretting and cringing from just typing this reply., but there's got to be an interesting story there.

[SouthNarc]

Is there a particular name for this variety of training? I'm guessing Craig's class would cover these topics?

Unfortunately no and that's only because the coursework is dense enough as it is. I'd like to but that would make it three full days and most folks are pretty beat up and done after 2.5.

[TGS]

Is there really that much to muzzle strikes that requires specific coursework?

Seems like a pretty straight forward weapon of opportunity to me.

[Peally]

I'm regretting and cringing from just typing this reply., but there's got to be an interesting story there.

OK I'm retarded, I didn't realize you may also just be Jewish, doesn't mean the pistol was used in uncomfortable striking situations :D

Like The Office, I must have had penis on the brains.

[Chuck Haggard]

When striking with pistols it's actually easy to break your gat, or disable it. I've seen several guns disabled, including revolvers and a 1911, over the years due to the gun meeting the suspect's head at speed.

[TGS]

When striking with pistols it's actually easy to break your gat, or disable it. I've seen several guns disabled, including revolvers and a 1911, over the years due to the gun meeting the suspect's head at speed.

How about a P229? What failures are common?

[Mitchell, Esq.]

I understand it happens. I was looking for some context to be able to answer the question better.

Once upon a time in a magical place called Sig Academy the wicked instructor (Todd Rassa) held a force on force class. In this force on force class, the participants in the scenarios do not necessarily know how many rounds will be in their gun in order to set up malfunctions.

One bright and sunny day... Or actually, it could have been a rainy day, I was in this scenario, minding my own business, when I got attacked by a guy with a knife.

Well, needless to say I kinda took umbrage at the idea of getting stabbed so I drew my pistol and attempted to shoot the guy with the knife. Wouldn't you know it, somebody had only given me one round of ammunition.

With this fine gentleman with a great piece of cutlery in close proximity to myself and me with an empty gun I decided the better course of action would be to use the gun as a bludgeon instead of attempting to reload with the full magazine located in my left hand pocket.

I was throwing jabs with a sig 226 in my right hand and let me tell you, that is one of the best pairs of brass knuckles money can buy.

So that's my context for striking with the muzzle of a gun.

[SLG]

How about a P229? What failures are common?

There are no common failures with the 229. Still requires competent instruction to do right, or im sure some failures would show up commonly.

[Chuck Haggard]

How about a P229? What failures are common?

Never seen a pistol strike done with a 229, but I have seen several other DA guns disabled by bending the trigger guard up into the trigger and tieing up the works.

The 1911 I noted lost the bushing, plug and recoil spring after a cranium impact, we later found the plug all the way across the parking lot, the bushing where the fight happened, and never did find the spring.

Muzzle strikes with a loaded semi-auto pistol commonly result in a live round stove-pipe in my experience.

With snubs I teach using the gun like one would stab with a K-Bar TDI knife, or as a set of brass knuckles. Semi-auto pistols I teach the ridge hand strike using the top of the slide.

[Wayne Dobbs]

Never seen a pistol strike done with a 229, but I have seen several other DA guns disabled by bending the trigger guard up into the trigger and tieing up the works.

The 1911 I noted lost the bushing, plug and recoil spring after a cranium impact, we later found the plug all the way across the parking lot, the bushing where the fight happened, and never did find the spring.

Muzzle strikes with a loaded semi-auto pistol commonly result in a live round stove-pipe in my experience.

With snubs I teach using the gun like one would stab with a K-Bar TDI knife, or as a set of brass knuckles. Semi-auto pistols I teach the ridge hand strike using the top of the slide.

The ridge hand strike works well and I think is less likely to render the pistol inoperative. I was also taught another technique of simply "holstering" the pistol in one of the offender's eye sockets as hard as possible. This is clearly a deadly force usage and would be appropriate with a gun that's down hard for one reason or another with little hope of getting it back in action as a firearm.

[Chance]

Never seen a pistol strike done with a 229, but I have seen several other DA guns disabled by bending the trigger guard up into the trigger and tieing up the works.



Is polymer going to bend too?



Muzzle strikes with a loaded semi-auto pistol commonly result in a live round stove-pipe in my experience.


Is that due to the slide physically being pushed back after impacting someone, or just inertia?

[1slow]

Never seen a pistol strike done with a 229, but I have seen several other DA guns disabled by bending the trigger guard up into the trigger and tieing up the works.

The 1911 I noted lost the bushing, plug and recoil spring after a cranium impact, we later found the plug all the way across the parking lot, the bushing where the fight happened, and never did find the spring.

Muzzle strikes with a loaded semi-auto pistol commonly result in a live round stove-pipe in my experience.

With snubs I teach using the gun like one would stab with a K-Bar TDI knife, or as a set of brass knuckles. Semi-auto pistols I teach the ridge hand strike using the top of the slide.

I call snubs "Ballistic Push Daggers" get a hard grip and drive the muzzle into throat, eye etc.....
You can go from contact to as distant as your skill and sights will take you.

[Failure2Stop]

Just leaving this here...
http://www.dlsports.com/pics/2013-04-09-1911/pic-2013-04-09-1911-sideview-dsc00613-large.jpg

[Wondering Beard]

Looks like Chuck Rogers' work.

[45dotACP]

Never seen a pistol strike done with a 229, but I have seen several other DA guns disabled by bending the trigger guard up into the trigger and tieing up the works.

The 1911 I noted lost the bushing, plug and recoil spring after a cranium impact, we later found the plug all the way across the parking lot, the bushing where the fight happened, and never did find the spring.

Muzzle strikes with a loaded semi-auto pistol commonly result in a live round stove-pipe in my experience.

With snubs I teach using the gun like one would stab with a K-Bar TDI knife, or as a set of brass knuckles. Semi-auto pistols I teach the ridge hand strike using the top of the slide.
One would think a muzzle strike followed by a carefully aimed recoil spring bushing propelled at light speed out of the front of the gun (as happens when stripping the 1911) would do the trick!

;)

[Chuck Haggard]

One would think a muzzle strike followed by a carefully aimed recoil spring bushing propelled at light speed out of the front of the gun (as happens when stripping the 1911) would do the trick!

;)

One might, but in this case the fight got distinctly worse immediately afterwards.

[Chuck Haggard]

Is polymer going to bend too?

It might, but it pops right back. Metal frames do not spring back.

Looks something like this when it happens;
4785


Is that due to the slide physically being pushed back after impacting someone, or just inertia?

The slide being pushed back at speed.

[gray wolf]

The better practice is to NOT shove the muzzle into the adversary to fire but to retract the pistol back to a well indexed retention position

I Agree

In a close contact as in ( I can smell what you had for lunch) against a drawn weapon my method would be to control the other weapon with my week hand if possible, weapon side bladed away from the B G before I brought another weapon in play, Two weapons in play could = a tie, not recommended. Draw my weapon canted out from my body, butt of the weapon pressed against my body. Depending on the engagement
fire 2 rounds. NO, I would not press the muzzle into the B G,s body. Depending on the weapon and the intensity of the recoil spring I could push the slide out of battery, perp could have something hard in a pocket, could hit a chest bone or a rib and there is always the possibility of body armor.

As for defending in a none life threatening situation or you might say just to get a point across, I might strike with the weapon.

How depends, on the situation, facing front and a non lethal threat comes from my right side they will probably get the side of the pistol,
So on and so on. Close contact and jab with the pistol ? I don't think so, + I would never extend my weapon out to perform a strike,
why present a take away situation.

Just a few thoughts , but naturally when the adrenaline is flowing strange things happen. That's why I practice till I don't get it wrong.