Handgun Caliber that has edge in Lethal Encounter

[veteran-USMC]

Howdy Shooters! I am centering my question on the subject of handguns. I am comfortable shooting 45 cal., 357 Magunum , 357sig,,& 9mm. With thee exception of the 357 sig my accuracy is very good---the 357 sig my accuracy is excellent. I am looking to buy a new handgun. This handgun will be used for home protection.
Shooters with all your police contacts,etc.--What caliber handgun with the proper placement of shots (not including people on drugs,etc.) have you heard seems to have an edge in stopping a lethal attack? To me I find it interesting to constantly fine tune your shooting skills. Most people on the internet will say --any caliber will do! Thank-you for your time & experienced opinions.

Thank-you!
Sincerely
Semper Fi Till The Day I Die!

[Le Français]

I suggest the 9mm due to lower cost and greater ammunition capacity.

[BehindBlueI's]

Howdy Shooters! I am centering my question on the subject of handguns. I am comfortable shooting 45 cal., 357 Magunum , 357sig,,& 9mm. With thee exception of the 357 sig my accuracy is very good---the 357 sig my accuracy is excellent.

With no intermediate barriers, I haven't seen much difference when using quality HP ammo. Whatever tiny differences there are a significantly less important than accuracy. With intermediate barriers, bonded HP is your friend. Non-bonded ammo can fragment early and penetrate poorly afterward, especially with smaller/lighter bullets. Bonded ammo greatly reduces this issue.

Personally, I *prefer* the .45 ACP and .357 magnum for reasons that are admittedly mostly in my head. I am confident with them and have seen good results with them. I actually carry a .40 most of the time because I'm also confident in it's ability with the Federal Tactical after seeing many PAS where the combo worked very well...and because I can shoot it for free. If I had to carry a 9mm I wouldn't cry about it. I'm getting out of .357 sig based solely on ammo cost and difficulty of reloading, and due to difficulty in finding top shelf carry ammo for it. YMMV.

[SamAdams]

Hi - check out the sticky posts in the ammo section and you'll find lots of detailed answers to your question. The short reply is yes, the major service pistol chamberings - - 9, 40, and 45 are all effective with proper ammo/bullet selection.

[Sammy1]

Witnessed an OIS with 357 Sig. The round didn't do anything special, the suspect took multiple hits. Lately there have been two OIS with 45 acp locally and again nothing special, no one shot stops, both suspects armed with knives charging the officers and took 4-5 solid hits to stop them. I'm becoming a believer in theory that most service calibers are about equal. If you want something heavier than 9mm I would suggest the 40S&W because of ammo cost (less than 357 Sig & 45 acp) and holds a decent amount of rounds in magazine.

[breakingtime91]

sell everything, invest in a 9mm and a shit ton of ammo. Shoot, shoot, and shoot some more.

[gtmtnbiker98]

I switched my department back to 9mm a few years ago and we couldn't be happier. The .40 S&W was just too expensive to maintain it in bulk and to afford any meaningful training. 9mm is simply where it's at right now, given quality ammunition.

[breakingtime91]

I switched my department back to 9mm a few years ago and we couldn't be happier. The .40 S&W was just too expensive to maintain it in bulk and to afford any meaningful training. 9mm is simply where it's at right now, given quality ammunition.

yup, plenty of options also. Gold dot and hst seem to be the way to go.

[Kyle Reese]

9x19 all the way, with a defensive load on DocGKR's list.

[Glenn E. Meyer]

How accurately and quickly do you shoot quality rounds in 9, 40, 357 Sig under time pressure and stress? Such considerations have led the move back to 9mm given no really proven differences between modern rounds in these calibers.

Anecdotally, watching someone shoot a Glock in 357 vs 9mm, a shooter in an advanced class was faster cleaning plates in a drill using the 9mm. By the end of the morning, the Sig rounds was getting unpleasant and the shooter switched.

[SamAdams]

The last four semi auto pistols I bought were Glock 9mms. Reading on these forums, a good case was made for maybe going with a 40 if you're a LEO with lots of vehicle stops, or when outdoors to deal with larger animal threats. When doing activities in the mountains, I use a 40 conversion barrel to shoot 40 from my Glock 10mm. But the vast majority of my pistol trigger time is with 9mm. - Way back when, I was strictly a 1911 45 guy.

[Hauptmann]

I've used 9mm, .357sig, .40, and .45 to a pretty great extent over the years. In comparison to the other calibers, I find nothing beneficial to the .357 and .40 and now I stick with 9mm and .45. I if I had to stick with one caliber, it would be 9mm all day long. Even 10yrs ago many in law enforcement were convinced that using the larger caliber would help to compensate for poor shot placement. 20yrs before that, much of law enforcement thought that high impact energy would compensate for poor shot placement. Finally, law enforcement is coming around and realizing that with a hangun caliber, there is no substitute for good shot placement, and well designed bullets. The 9mm has closed the combat effectiveness gap between itself and the larger calibers due to the use of more durable bullet materials. .40 and .45 haven't advanced much since the mid 1990s.

[LSP552]

IMO, the best choice is the one you personally shoot the best launched the platform you prefer. My personal choice is 9mm because I shoot it measurably better than bigger calibers.

[JSGlock34]

You might find this thread of interest.

Caliber, the experts choice FYI
(https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?17082-Caliber-the-experts-choice-FYI)

I did a survey of some of the most experienced shooters/trainers I personally know and here is the question I asked them all.

Assuming you had to buy your own pistol and ammunition (type of your choice) for combined self-defense and self-defense range training use, which caliber would you choose, 9x19mm Parabellum, .357 Sig, .38 super, .40 S&W, 10mm or .45 ACP ?

I surveyed the following and their answer:

BJ Norris 9mm
Bill Rogers 9mm
Bill Wilson 9mm
David Bahde 9mm
Ernest Langdon 9mm
Frank Proctor 9mm
Ken Hackathorn 9mm
Larry Vickers 9mm
Mike Seeklander 9mm
Paul Markel 9mm
Paul Howe 9mm
Paul Buffoni 9mm
Rob Haught .45
Rob Leatham .40
Super Dave Harrington 9mm

[psalms144.1]

Not to dog pile, but, barring significant tactical barriers, .357 Sig does nothing better than 9mm for a HD round. In fact, there are some smart guys at the FBI who are pretty convinced that the latest and greatest 9mm JHP out perform all competition, including through barriers (not sure if they're including auto steel and glass - but neither are you, if you're looking for HD).

9mm provides sufficient penetration, sufficient expansion, sufficient "energy," increased capacity, less recoil, and lower cost (cheaper = more training ammo). Not sure why you'd look at anything else.

Of course, my safe will NEVER be absent a .45 ACP or three, but that's simply nostalgia.

[RevolverRob]

Caliber choice is context dependent honestly.

I've always had a soft spot for flat-shooting, medium calibers, I have a strong, undeniable, love of .357 Sig, 7.62 Tokarev, 7.63 Mauser, .38 Super, 9x25 Dillon in semi-auto form. In revolvers, .357 Magnum and I are good friends. That is partially because I grew up in the farm country of east Texas, flat shooting cartridges do a good job on coyotes, before they can cross the cotton or corn fields anywhere between 30-100 yards away. Then I grew up and did a lot of field work in the high desert of west Texas, again flat-shooting pistol cartridges are ideal for wide-open country. In most cases I was unable to carry a rifle or it was too inconvenient so I wanted a gun I had confidence in shooting long distances.

Now that I'm back in the city most of the time and my longest unobstructed shot would be 50 meters or less, 9mm semi-autos serve me just fine. I've tried a handful over the years. Glock, Sig, Beretta, HK, couldn't find anything I liked until...I picked up a Browning Hi-Power for cheap a few weeks ago. I've shot plenty of HPs over the years and they've all been tops. I had mine out to the range, with 14, 124-grain +P HSTs on tap, in a full size steel gun that I shoot well? I feel very confident overall.

-Rob

[El Cid]

Handgun rounds all basically do the same thing. To quote Kyle Defoor, it's all about timers and switches. You can speed up the timer with additional hits. That makes capacity an important factor. Therefore I'll add to the recommendations for 9mm.

[Surf]

.... This handgun will be used for home protection.

...What caliber handgun with the proper placement of shots (not including people on drugs,etc.) have you heard seems to have an edge in stopping a lethal attack?

... Most people on the internet will say --any caliber will do! Handgun calibers in general are not optimal when it comes to "getting the job done". With that said most modern quality defense ammo in common calibers will perform fairly similar, some factors are +/-.

Shot placementioned will often be the deciding factor. One of my best friends was killed OTJ by a .22 to the heart.

Rifle calibers are far more effective but if you stick to handguns pick one you shoot best in a commonly accepted defensive caliber with known quality defensive ammo and then get quality training backed by copious amounts of correct practice.

[YVK]

This thread reminded me to ask the question that I was curious to ask for a while. In standard FBI ballistic gel protocol the pistol shots are fired from a distance of 10 feet. I wonder if anybody ever repeated these tests at a distance, say, 25-35 yards.

[cheby]

Seriously..... the only proper caliber is 44mag. Duh. ..

[JTQ]

You might find this thread of interest.

Caliber, the experts choice FYI
(https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?17082-Caliber-the-experts-choice-FYI)
The key part of that poll question was... you had to buy your own pistol and ammunition, and... for combined self-defense and self-defense range training use. While I don't recognize all the names on the list, I suspect those guy all shoot huge volumes of ammo. I suspect cost is a major factor.

I've wondered if the question were modified to ask, if you could only shoot 100 rounds per month, and were guaranteed to be in a one on one shootout every month, what would your choice be?




YVK wrote,
This thread reminded me to ask the question that I was curious to ask for a while. In standard FBI ballistic gel protocol the pistol shots are fired from a distance of 10 feet. I wonder if anybody ever repeated these tests at a distance, say, 25-35 yards.
I've often wondered the same.

[Jeep]

I'm going to (mildly) disagree with most people here. You say that you shoot .357 Sig most accurately. If you can shoot it more accurately than others and almost as fast as, say, 9 mm, then you might want to stick with .357 Sig because shot placement really does count.

Personally, I am comfortable with 9mm, .40 and .45 but not .357 Sig, but you should go with your own strengths.

I'd put most of my practice ammo budget into 9mm, though, because it is so much cheaper, and over time you might (or might not) grow more comfortable with 9 than .357 Sig. At that time, I'd change.

[Hauptmann]

The key part of that poll question was... you had to buy your own pistol and ammunition, and... for combined self-defense and self-defense range training use. While I don't recognize all the names on the list, I suspect those guy all shoot huge volumes of ammo. I suspect cost is a major factor.

I've wondered if the question were modified to ask, if you could only shoot 100 rounds per month, and were guaranteed to be in a one on one shootout every month, what would your choice be?




I've often wondered the same.

I've personally talked with Larry Vickers, Ken Hackathorn, Bill Rogers, and a number of other experts that aren't on that list. Even with no ammo cost considerations(IE military/LE handouts), almost all of them agree that the 9mm is a superior choice in most circumstances. The key here that has made the 9mm so desirable in their minds over the other calibers has been the advancement of 9mm JHP projectiles, and the actual field results that have shown them to be effective. Combine that with the other desirable shooting characteristics of the 9mm, its field reliability and durability, its higher capacity, and increased service life and the favoritism leans away from .357/.40/.45. Take it or leave their advice, but given their collective experience with their own shooting, and thousands of trainees that they work with and it's hard to find criticism with their logic.

[breakingtime91]

The key part of that poll question was... you had to buy your own pistol and ammunition, and... for combined self-defense and self-defense range training use. While I don't recognize all the names on the list, I suspect those guy all shoot huge volumes of ammo. I suspect cost is a major factor.

I've wondered if the question were modified to ask, if you could only shoot 100 rounds per month, and were guaranteed to be in a one on one shootout every month, what would your choice be?




I've often wondered the same.

I would still use 9mm. All the evidence I have seen shows that pistols suck, regardless of ammo used. Much rather have more ammo and lower recoil

[psalms144.1]

I would still use 9mm. All the evidence I have seen shows that pistols suck, regardless of ammo used. Much rather have more ammo and lower recoilDitto. And I am issued ammunition - my choice of 9mm, .40 S&W, or .45 ACP. I don't get to shoot much at all for training anymore (another reason living in NYistan sucks), but I have the possibility of getting into a work-related gunfight every time I walk out my door. I carry a 9mm, even though my agency's issued 9mm JHP is a miserable "performer" - based on 1980s bullet technology and loading. Why? I shoot the 9mm that much more accurately and faster. It's simple math to me - I'd rather put 4-5 "crappy" 9mm JHPs in vicinity of a threat's CNS in under a second than 2-3 .40s in the same timeframe. Neither round is going to "stop" a determined attacker unless I put them where they have to go, and I can do that faster and more consistently with the 9mm than the .40, keeping the same platform.

[gtmtnbiker98]

I carry a 9mm, even though my agency's issued 9mm JHP is a miserable "performer" - based on 1980s bullet technology and loading. Let me guess, HydraShok?

[psalms144.1]

Let me guess, HydraShok?Even worse - a "generic" equivalent of 9MS. VERY accurate - crazy accurate (stupidly accurate out of my P7M8), and will penetrate like the dickens. Not sure on expansion though...

[Tamara]

I've wondered if the question were modified to ask, if you could only shoot 100 rounds per month, and were guaranteed to be in a one on one shootout every month, what would your choice be?

9x19. I am no longer convinced that there's enough performance difference between service pistol bullets to make it worth giving up the shootability of the 9. In other words, "Point to me on the Binky Doll the place where a 9x19 GDHP won't work but, say, a .40 would get the job done." I could do that with the mousegun calibers; say, a cross-torso shot through the bicep, but 9/.40/.45? They're pretty much of a muchness.

[Little Creek]

Google: 9mm FBI Justification.

[Peally]

They all feel roughly the same to me, but you get more boolets with 9mm.

Also this is the absolute king in beaten horse firearm topics, which is funny considering the answer is "it doesn't matter, go practice" :D

[LSP972]

I've personally talked with Larry Vickers, Ken Hackathorn, Bill Rogers, and a number of other experts that aren't on that list. Even with no ammo cost considerations(IE military/LE handouts), almost all of them agree that the 9mm is a superior choice in most circumstances. The key here that has made the 9mm so desirable in their minds over the other calibers has been the advancement of 9mm JHP projectiles, and the actual field results that have shown them to be effective. Combine that with the other desirable shooting characteristics of the 9mm, its field reliability and durability, its higher capacity, and increased service life and the favoritism leans away from .357/.40/.45. Take it or leave their advice, but given their collective experience with their own shooting, and thousands of trainees that they work with and it's hard to find criticism with their logic.

While all of that is true, the fact still remains that... every medical-type person involved with actually treating gunshot trauma, that I know of, says the same thing. To wit; absent a solid CNC hit (head or spine), what takes people down is exsanguination. That's doctor-talk for bleeding out. The better .45ACP +P offerings can reach one inch of expansion in uniform media; gelatin or the water tank. Euro-Pellet can't come close to that. The most picture-perfect 9mm bullet I've seen come out of a corpse was a 124gr Gold Dot, fired from a G17, that was dug out of the thoracic cavity of an average-size male suspect. You could have used that bullet for an advertising photo. We sent a photo of it to my man at ATK, and as far as I know they use it in their LE presentations around the country. The bullet measured .551".

That's just a tad bigger than a .45 ball bullet.

The point being, when it comes to making holes to allow blood to flow, bigger is better.

Now... granted, three or four 9mms in the wishbone will do the trick. One might, IF it hits the right spot. The bigger bullet, regardless of expansion, is going to cut a bigger hole and stands a better chance of cutting or nicking a vessel. Its all about the odds. The people you see who crow about marksmanship, coolness under fire, etc., have generally never been on the two-way range.

As a working trooper, with a full size service 9mm and plenty of spare burrets to hand, I felt comfortable carrying the Euro-Pellet. As a retiree/citizen carrying a compact pistol and one spare magazine, I choose to err on the side of the big bullet. One shot is all I might get. Like Tom Givens says... you'll generally run out of time before you run out of ammunition.

Anyway, that's my take on it.

.

[Hauptmann]

This thread reminded me to ask the question that I was curious to ask for a while. In standard FBI ballistic gel protocol the pistol shots are fired from a distance of 10 feet. I wonder if anybody ever repeated these tests at a distance, say, 25-35 yards.

Virtually every manufacturer tests their defensive loads at reduced velocities to simulate short barrel and longer ranged shooting. Do they gel test at 50yrds?....no, they simply measure the ballistic coefficient of the bullet to estimate the velocity loss, and then they load the cartridge for that velocity level. Most bullet designs loose their ability to expand after about 75yrds from a pistol barrel, but some extend that range to closer to 100yrds. The better the bullet's ballistic coefficient, the less it slows down with range.

[Beat Trash]

Handgun calibers in general are not optimal when it comes to "getting the job done". With that said most modern quality defense ammo in common calibers will perform fairly similar, some factors are +/-.

Shot placementioned will often be the deciding factor. One of my best friends was killed OTJ by a .22 to the heart.

Rifle calibers are far more effective but if you stick to handguns pick one you shoot best in a commonly accepted defensive caliber with known quality defensive ammo and then get quality training backed by copious amounts of correct practice.

Listen to what Surf has posted.

The difference between the major handgun calibers, using the same design of bullet is minimal at best.

Shot placement and the use of appropriate tactics before your adversary can do the same to you is as important as the caliber of you handgun.

DocGKR has a list of rounds in various calibers that he has tested. The results from the ballistic workshops that I have participated in with my agency have all mirrored the results that Dr. Roberts have posted. I would strongly suggest using one of the rounds he has recommended. Once you learn about human anatomy and what is required to stop a violent individual (Not kill, just stop the individual from doing whatever it was that he was doing. Wether he lives or not is not important at the moment. That he is stopped from continuing his violent actions is what's important.)

With this in mind, the 9mm has a lot to offer in my opinion. But a handgun is still a handgun. Whether if I'm at work or at home, whenever I feel the realistic potential to encounter armed individual(s) is high, I grab an AR carbine. Prior to being able to use a AR at work (AKA: Patrol Rifle), I would grab an 870.

When using a modern design bullet, the difference in terminal effectiveness between the rounds is so similar that you must look at other factors when choosing a caliber. The 9mm offers some additional advantages. over it's competing calibers. Training ammo costs are one consideration. But a gun that has less recoil is another advantage, no matter the skill level of the shooter. (You may be injured and still engaging the suspect.) Additional magazine capacity before the need to reload is also factor. You can deliver a lethal wound to an individual and they may still have the ability to fight on for 10-15 seconds. You may actually miss a couple of times due to poor lighting, the fact that both you and the suspect are moving. And don't forget that the suspect may have brought associates along with him. A high capacity pistol is not normally an issue, until all of a sudden it is.

[YVK]

Virtually every manufacturer tests their defensive loads at reduced velocities to simulate short barrel and longer ranged shooting. Do they gel test at 50yrds?....no.

Thanks. I personally would love to see a true 50 yards gel data as opposed to surrogate testing. However, absent true long range data, I would love to see a simulated reduced velocity data.

[Eyesquared]

While all of that is true, the fact still remains that... every medical-type person involved with actually treating gunshot trauma, that I know of, says the same thing. To wit; absent a solid CNC hit (head or spine), what takes people down is exsanguination. That's doctor-talk for bleeding out. The better .45ACP +P offerings can reach one inch of expansion in uniform media; gelatin or the water tank. Euro-Pellet can't come close to that. The most picture-perfect 9mm bullet I've seen come out of a corpse was a 124gr Gold Dot, fired from a G17, that was dug out of the thoracic cavity of an average-size male suspect. You could have used that bullet for an advertising photo. We sent a photo of it to my man at ATK, and as far as I know they use it in their LE presentations around the country. The bullet measured .551".

That's just a tad bigger than a .45 ball bullet.

The point being, when it comes to making holes to allow blood to flow, bigger is better.

Now... granted, three or four 9mms in the wishbone will do the trick. One might, IF it hits the right spot. The bigger bullet, regardless of expansion, is going to cut a bigger hole and stands a better chance of cutting or nicking a vessel. Its all about the odds. The people you see who crow about marksmanship, coolness under fire, etc., have generally never been on the two-way range.

As a working trooper, with a full size service 9mm and plenty of spare burrets to hand, I felt comfortable carrying the Euro-Pellet. As a retiree/citizen carrying a compact pistol and one spare magazine, I choose to err on the side of the big bullet. One shot is all I might get. Like Tom Givens says... you'll generally run out of time before you run out of ammunition.

Anyway, that's my take on it.

.

I am not a medical professional but I do know a little bit about anatomy and my understanding is that most of the structures that will cause you to exsanguinate are not particular about how big the hole is. If you blow a hole in a dude's heart the difference in blood loss between handgun calibers is minimal. For major blood vessels either you hit it or you didn't, a big hole that misses someone's femoral and merely travels through a bunch of fat is not much better than a small hole that takes the same path.

[LSP972]

I am not a medical professional... my understanding is that most of the structures that will cause you to exsanguinate are not particular about how big the hole is..

I'm not either. But I have spoken with plenty who are; from ER personnel to canoe-makers; and they disagree.

Its all relative. Like Beat Trash said, a long gun of sufficient power is the thing to have. StarBucks OC'ers and other dimwits trying to make a statement aside, carrying a shoulder gun around routinely can be a bit... problematical.

.

[breakingtime91]

I'm not either. But I have spoken with plenty who are; from ER personnel to canoe-makers; and they disagree.

Its all relative. Like Beat Trash said, a long gun of sufficient power is the thing to have. StarBucks OC'ers and other dimwits trying to make a statement aside, carrying a shoulder gun around routinely can be a bit... problematical.

.

I guess I just stick with what Doc has posted/stated on this subject, but to each their own.

[Jeep]

I am not a medical professional but I do know a little bit about anatomy and my understanding is that most of the structures that will cause you to exsanguinate are not particular about how big the hole is. If you blow a hole in a dude's heart the difference in blood loss between handgun calibers is minimal. For major blood vessels either you hit it or you didn't, a big hole that misses someone's femoral and merely travels through a bunch of fat is not much better than a small hole that takes the same path.

I'm no expert, but my understanding is that a bigger bullet size is better not necessarily because it will make, say, a bigger hole in the heart, but because it will be more likely to hit the heart or some vital artery than a smaller bullet since it will cause damage to a bigger area.

[DocGKR]

"I wonder if anybody ever repeated these tests at a distance, say, 25-35 yards."

Both the FBI BRF on the East Coast and us on the West Coast have done this. Not really any difference in terminal performance between 3 yds and 25 yds; depending on the load, we start seeing some differences at 50 yds.

[YVK]

I am not a medical professional but I do know a little bit about anatomy and my understanding is that most of the structures that will cause you to exsanguinate are not particular about how big the hole is. If you blow a hole in a dude's heart the difference in blood loss between handgun calibers is minimal.

Based on a personal experience and observations, I don't subscribe to this belief.


DocGKR, thank you. I was hoping you'd reply. Is it safe to assume that slower loads did worse at 50 yard distances, or no generalizations can be made?

[Eyesquared]

I'm no expert, but my understanding is that a bigger bullet size is better not necessarily because it will make, say, a bigger hole in the heart, but because it will be more likely to hit the heart or some vital artery than a smaller bullet since it will cause damage to a bigger area.

Maybe that is the case, but for me I don't think the juice is worth the squeeze. I took a look at ATK's data for the HSTs and from 9mm to .45 you get roughly a 11% increase in diameter. Personally I would not take an 11% increase in diameter in exchange for a 24% reduction in capacity (based on going from G17 to G21) and an unquantifiable reduction in shootability. Perhaps if you only expect to get off 3-5 rounds that makes more sense but given practice needs and ammo costs I am not sure I see the utility in going .45 or .40.


Based on a personal experience and observations, I don't subscribe to this belief.


Sorry, I just realized I wasn't very clear in my original statement. Obviously a 3" hole in a dude's chest beats a 1" hole. The problem, in my view, is that a larger caliber makes a marginally larger hole than a smaller caliber. If the hole is only bigger by .1" I don't buy that the change in the rate of blood loss will significantly affect the outcome of a shooting. The increase in hole size to me doesn't balance out the other factors like recoil, capacity, and ammo cost. I am not by any means an expert, so I'd love to hear more about your experiences.

[YVK]

In the heart, things are murky. Last year or year before I reported a .22 cal shot through and through a heart that wasn't even initially suspected in ED. We have certainly seen a number of contained ruptures from heart attacks, the smaller the rupture the higher the containment chances. I don't know why this could not be extrapolated to GSWs. In addition, penetrating heart injuries don't always kill by extravasation but also by a tamponade. With the latter, the rate of fluid accumulation is as important as accumulated volume. I don't know by how much bigger the hole should be to reach a statistical signifcance in rapidity of incapacitation, but I tend to think every mm counts.

In peripheral vascular tree the medical data is more robust. Going from 8 Fr catheters to 6 Fr catheters for femoral artery sticks has been associated with reduction in bleeding risks. The difference between those two is a mere .667 mm in diameter and those are carefully placed neat round holes that we attend to quite carefully. The confounded here could a use of anticoagulants.

I don't think there's any disagreement that any advantage in hole size is an advantage, even if quantification of difference is hard. That said, I carry 9 mm for all the reasons mentioned here and elsewhere.

[OnionsAndDragons]

I like more rounds/sec on target.

For me, that generally means 9mm. Between HST, Ranger Bonded, and GD loads I think there is an ideal option in 9mm for any reasonable application.

Your rds/sec on target may be better with a different load or gun and, given the data on handgun round performance, that load/gun combo is what you should likely go with.

I could shoot my last 1911 (45acp) pretty much on par with my G19 or P30 (9mms) at speed, but I get to carry twice as many rounds with less size and weight in the gun with the others. Not to mention getting to shoot more training rounds for the same price. That made my decision.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[Mr_White]

For me, being able to shoot a .40 or .45 close to as well/quickly as a 9mm, lasts right up until I have to shoot one-handed. Then a much bigger difference starts to appear. I took a little notice one day some years ago, shooting my G21 support hand only, with 230gr + P HST, and the muzzle would tilt like sixty degrees up in recoil. I don't know how much it really was, but it felt like a pretty big difference from 9mm support hand only.

[Hauptmann]

I don't think that anyone is arguing that a hole created by a .40 beats a 9mm, and a hole created by a .45 beats a .40. The larger hole should promote more bleeding, and it improves the odds of damaging more arterial structure. The original FBI 10mm Notes lays this explanation out.

It was all very concrete, sound logic in 1988 when the driving forces behind LE caliber adoption were the likes of Marshall and Sanow the the energy dump theories. However, 20yrs of many LE agencies dumping their 9mms in favor of larger calibers has produced its own reliable set of data points. 10mm Notes was wrong in many ways. It assumed that hole size was more important than it is, it assumed that bullet technology could not advance enough to make the 9mm an optimal LE cartridge, and it disregarded the shootability of non steel framed firearms.

[psalms144.1]

For me, being able to shoot a .40 or .45 close to as well/quickly as a 9mm, lasts right up until I have to shoot one-handed. An excellent point, and one that rarely gets mentioned. Support-hand-only shooting with the variety of injuries to my left hand/wrist is workable with my G19, uncomfortable with my G30S, and downright NASTY with my G23, both from a comfort perspective, and a control/accuracy perspective.

[Kevin B.]

I let the platform dictacte the caliber and the purpose dictate the platform.

All else being equal, I would much rather hit someone with a quality 230-grain JHP than a 115/124/147-grain JHP, but I have no issue with the 9mm.

[DocGKR]

As I have stated previously, in the last decade or so, ammo engineers have produced a superb generation of 9 mm projectiles that offer penetration in the ideal range and that are capable of good performance after common intermediate barriers. As many agencies are discovering, modern robust expanding, barrier blind 9 mm ammunition is performing on par with larger caliber handgun loads, but offers substantial fiscal and training benefits. In test after test, most officers demonstrate a higher qualification score when shooting 9 mm compared to other common service calibers. Smaller statured officers and those with small hands tend to shoot better with 9 mm. Service pistols tend to be more durable in 9 mm than those in .357 Sig and .40 S&W. In a time of fiscal austerity, 9 mm ammunition is certainly less expensive. For most LE and self-defense duties, there are a lot of advantages in carrying a 9 mm: easy to shoot--especially one handed, relatively inexpensive to practice with, lots of bullets immediately on tap. (When I injured my strong hand a few years ago and lost its use for several months, I found out how much more effective I was using a G19 weak handed compared to a .45 Auto 1911).

A .45 Auto is an option if artificially restricted to a 10 rd or less magazine capacity by asinine and illogical regulations.

[45dotACP]

As I have stated previously, in the last decade or so, ammo engineers have produced a superb generation of 9 mm projectiles that offer penetration in the ideal range and that are capable of good performance after common intermediate barriers. As many agencies are discovering, modern robust expanding, barrier blind 9 mm ammunition is performing on par with larger caliber handgun loads, but offers substantial fiscal and training benefits. In test after test, most officers demonstrate a higher qualification score when shooting 9 mm compared to other common service calibers. Smaller statured officers and those with small hands tend to shoot better with 9 mm. Service pistols tend to be more durable in 9 mm than those in .357 Sig and .40 S&W. In a time of fiscal austerity, 9 mm ammunition is certainly less expensive. For most LE and self-defense duties, there are a lot of advantages in carrying a 9 mm: easy to shoot--especially one handed, relatively inexpensive to practice with, lots of bullets immediately on tap. (When I injured my strong hand a few years ago and lost its use for several months, I found out how much more effective I was using a G19 weak handed compared to a .45 Auto 1911).

A .45 Auto is an option if artificially restricted to a 10 rd or less magazine capacity by asinine and illogical regulations.

If so restricted...would another caliber such as the .357 SIG or 40 S&W outperform the .45? Or would the higher pressure and sharper recoil impulse be more restrictive of an average shooters (thats me) performance?

[Nephrology]

I am not a medical professional but I do know a little bit about anatomy and my understanding is that most of the structures that will cause you to exsanguinate are not particular about how big the hole is. If you blow a hole in a dude's heart the difference in blood loss between handgun calibers is minimal. For major blood vessels either you hit it or you didn't, a big hole that misses someone's femoral and merely travels through a bunch of fat is not much better than a small hole that takes the same path.

I am a fake medical professional (medical student) and this is correct. The vasculature/nerves with a diameter greater or equal to 0.1" are pretty much of negligible importance in the context of a self-defense shooting. All of the great vessels and major components of the central nervous system (i.e. aorta, iliac/femoral arteries, spinal column, etc) have a width that can be measured in inches (in most people). Even the sciatic nerve is pretty damn thick on most people.

[RevolverRob]

If you're going the "bigger holes"/"more holes" route - then you should pick a solid .44 Magnum as your choice. Punch through the body with two .44 caliber holes instead or one. But yet, we know FMJs and solids are inferior defensive loads compared to bonded hollow point ammunition for a variety of reasons. Not the least of which is energy transfer, getting as much of the energy from the fired projectile into the target as possible. If you just think of it as a physics equation - Every projectile has a muzzle energy level, often converted to ft/lbs of energy - the trick is getting all or as much as possible of that energy into the target. Assuming no loss of energy between muzzle and say 3 yards (it's minimal). Then you just need compare the physics.

A 145-grain Winchester Silvertip in .357 Magnum - 535 ft/lbs of energy at the muzzle.
A 124-grain +P Federal HST in 9mm - 396 ft/lbs of energy at the muzzle.
A 230-grain Federal HST in .45 ACP - 406 ft/lbs of energy at the muzzle.

So on the surface .357 Magnum should be your winner - but the trade off is every action has an equal and opposite reaction, so you end up with more recoil and muzzle blast from the .357, not too mention reduced capacity. Meanwhile .45 and 9mm are so close, your best bet is lighter recoil and more capacity.

-Rob

[DocGKR]

Energy is only a measure of the ability of the projectile to perform work; it does not directly correlate with wounding or incapacitation effects.

[L-2]

After reading this article,
http://concealednation.org/2014/10/fbi-decides-on-9mm-as-their-1-choice-and-have-tons-of-science-behind-their-decision/
it really makes a good discussion/argument for 9mm. Do realize, it doesn't make the other calibers "bad".

Some points I recall it making ("I recall" as my memory and reading comprehension may skew my understandings of what I read) is there isn't a good correlation on power/energy to handgun ammo effectiveness. Will 400 ft/lbs hurt somebody better than 300 ft/lbs? Or will it be the penetration, wound damage, and bleeding regardless of a certain minimal amount of energy to get that penetration and damage?

Does the .07" difference between .45 and .38 or whatever they expand to really make that much of a difference in wounding when an MD is examining patients or victims. Apparently, shot placement will be more of a factor; along with that penetration and resulting wound damage.

Will a particular shooter really benefit from a possible higher capacity? And that depends on the specific handguns being considered by an individual. For example:
Glock 19, 15+1 rounds
Glock 23, 13+1 rounds
Glock 30, 10+1 rounds
It may not matter if one doesn't expend all 10+1 rounds and can't reload in time to continue shooting.

Frequency of shots, shot timing split seconds between next shot. I'm no competition, quick-draw shooter. Will I really be able to take advantage of the potential ability of 9mm to offer quick shot times in a lethal encounter gunfight? I'll counter-argue the ability to draw/shoot/& move will be more advantageous vs. standing in one place and hitting multiple targets as fast as I can. I did like Stallone shooting all those guys really quickly in the movie Expendables 2, however.

Do I really care about any possible price differences between 9mm, .40, .45ACP, .357 SIG or Mag, and .44? Owning all those calibers, I shoot and buy them all anyway, so I don't care. The article I referenced had to do mostly with justifying why the FBI is generally switching to 9mm for an entire agency.

Just my thoughts which came to mind while I taking a break from what I'm doing.

[JAD]

I let the platform dictacte the caliber and the purpose dictate the platform.

All else being equal, I would much rather hit someone with a quality 230-grain JHP than a 115/124/147-grain JHP, but I have no issue with the 9mm.
I regret that I have only one like to give to this post.

[GJM]

I regret that I have only one like to give to this post.

If you are so inclined, and it gives you joy, you can like it, unlike it, and repeat as many times as you wish.

[LSP972]

I am a fake medical professional (medical student) and this is correct. T


Well, I suppose the myriad of ER doctors, et. al., who told me otherwise didn't know what they were talking about. Go figure...

.

[JAD]

If you are so inclined, and it gives you joy, you can like it, unlike it, and repeat as many times as you wish.

No matter how hard I try, I cannot unlike that post.

I will add this: Doc's caveat, that the four bores do a better job versus intermediate barriers, would bug me a lot if I was an LEO. Mr. Givens' data makes me think that's not quite as important in a CHL setting.

[breakingtime91]

No matter how hard I try, I cannot unlike that post.

I will add this: Doc's caveat, that the four bores do a better job versus intermediate barriers, would bug me a lot if I was an LEO. Mr. Givens' data makes me think that's not quite as important in a CHL setting.

Weird that departments are moving to 9mm..

[BehindBlueI's]

Barrier penetration has yet to be an issue in a citizen self defense shooting on any case I've worked.

Capacity has yet to be relevant. The fight is decided before anyone is out of ammo.

Most stops are psychological, even those that later prove fatal. The person hit gives up, flees, drops the gun and crumbles, etc. well before they physically had to but the pain/mental impact ends the fight.

NYPD stats for decades showed no correlation between range scores and PAS success. The ability to shoot well is only one small component of winning gun fights. Decades of data also showed zero incidents were a speed reload mattered. That's LE stats, and those stats tend to be higher round count than citizen vs criminal stats.

Continue the caliber wars, but the differences are minor and largely irrelevant in who wins a gun fight when discussing any common duty caliber.

[BehindBlueI's]

Weird that departments are moving to 9mm..

$ matters. Plus the LE world is certainly not immune to fads and the beliefs of the brass in charge of procurement. Our state police just went to .45, again.

[GJM]

http://i250.photobucket.com/albums/gg251/GJMandes/image_zpsjsalbwah.jpeg (http://s250.photobucket.com/user/GJMandes/media/image_zpsjsalbwah.jpeg.html)

http://i250.photobucket.com/albums/gg251/GJMandes/image_zps1hqswfmt.jpeg (http://s250.photobucket.com/user/GJMandes/media/image_zps1hqswfmt.jpeg.html)

[breakingtime91]

$ matters. Plus the LE world is certainly not immune to fads and the beliefs of the brass in charge of procurement. Our state police just went to .45, again.

oh im all about 9mm =D

[RevolverRob]

Energy is only a measure of the ability of the projectile to perform work; it does not directly correlate with wounding or incapacitation effects.

Absolutely in agreement. Wounding and incapacitation are more directly correlated with accuracy than energy when it comes to shooting. That is, the ability to wound or incapacitate an individual is directly correlated to hitting them and where you hit them. Admittedly, a lot of energy doesn't hurt, but by a lot I mean things like...high explosives, or at least the instantaneous delivery of moderate energy to a critical target. Not the type of energy you get from your typical handgun round either, I mean things like rifles and/or shotguns at minimum. Preferably you hit someone with a howitzer or maybe a car traveling at 100mph over a 9mm. But barring that, just focus on getting bullets on target as quickly and accurately as possible.

-Rob

[BJJ]

Thanks for posting that. I know which one I'd rather shoot especially since the performance appears almost identical.


http://i250.photobucket.com/albums/gg251/GJMandes/image_zpsjsalbwah.jpeg (http://s250.photobucket.com/user/GJMandes/media/image_zpsjsalbwah.jpeg.html)

http://i250.photobucket.com/albums/gg251/GJMandes/image_zps1hqswfmt.jpeg (http://s250.photobucket.com/user/GJMandes/media/image_zps1hqswfmt.jpeg.html)

[YVK]

I just played with a ballistic calculator on these ^^^ numbers. Numbers say that with these loads the .357 will have a higher velocity at 50 yards than the 9 has at the muzzle, while 9 will go subsonic at that distance.

Yes, I know, I know........but, but local malls do have veeery long food courts.

[RevolverRob]

I just played with a ballistic calculator on these ^^^ numbers. Numbers say that with these loads the .357 will have a higher velocity at 50 yards than the 9 has at the muzzle, while 9 will go subsonic at that distance.

Yes, I know, I know........but, but local malls do have veeery long food courts.

If I think I have a higher than normal probability of taking pistol shots in excess of 50 yards...I switch immediately to something firing a 125+ grain projectile at 1300+ FPS. Although, I've had good luck on coyotes with a 110-grain softpoints in .30 Carbine in a Ruger single action as a kid. It's not that 9mm isn't capable of good solid hits at 50+ it's that I prefer something with a flatter trajectory.

I have an unhealthy obsession with 9x25mm Dillon for this reason...I mean who can resist a 125-grain JHP traveling at 1700 FPS with ~3 inches of drop at 100 yards? Not this guy, that's for sure.

-Rob

[Nephrology]

Well, I suppose the myriad of ER doctors, et. al., who told me otherwise didn't know what they were talking about. Go figure...

.

can you refer me to what structures they were thinking of specifically? because I spent most of my first semester literally digging through ~30 different cadavers and the major vasculature + CNS tissue is all quite large. Sometimes shockingly so. this held true between small women and larger overweight men. all of the great vessels and their major branches are all very thick. Certainly much thicker than the 0.1" difference between a 9mm and .45 cal projectile.

Below is a link to a photo of a cadaver showing the abdominal aorta as it bifurcates into the right and left common iliac arteries with the IVC right next to it. the blue probes in the photo are roughly the thickness of a #2 pencil, for reference. don't click if you are squeamish.

http://wberesford.hsc.wvu.edu/PC1010013labelled1.jpg

edit - also, as you get closer the heart (where it sits in the chest or "center of mass," where most all of us are trained to place a controlled pair) the great vessels get even bigger. Another photo to illustrate -

https://classconnection.s3.amazonaws.com/370/flashcards/919370/jpg/thoracic_aorta1328873276373.jpg

For reference, take a look at the ribs on the back of the diaphragm. The descending aorta (highlighted in pink) is thicker in width than all of them, and in my cadaver was probably a good inch and a half thick.

[SteveB]

I think it's worth remembering that the primary purpose of expanding ammunition is to control penetration, not to damage structures adjacent to the bullet path. Shooting through the target yields entry and exit wounds, more holes to let fluid out and air in, but is frowned upon in populated areas for obvious reasons. Bullet performance means different things to the average armed citizen than it does to LE, in that LE has to be able to handle a variety of barriers. The armed citizen needs to not shoot through the target, but needs enough penetration to reach vital structures even through a leather jacket or heavy musculature. I have seen many single bullet wounds that did not immediately incapacitate. For me, given the vastly improved performance of modern bullet design, the most important feature of my PD handgun is to deliver multiple rounds on target as fast as I can, which is why I carry a 9mm.

[Little Creek]

For me, given the vastly improved performance of modern bullet design, the most important feature of my PD handgun is to deliver multiple rounds on target as fast as I can, which is why I carry a 9mm.

+1

[LSP972]

can you refer me to what structures they were thinking of specifically?.

No clue. All I can tell you is, forensic pathologists (starting with Vincent DiMaio) and various ER doctors I have spoken with over the years, and who are interested in this stuff, all say the same thing... penetration is king, with caliber being queen. Dr. DiMaio's presentation did include some charts of the vascular system and major organs, and how damage in specific areas contributed to relative incapacitation. But the man was talking to a bunch of laymen more interested in the bottom line, and tailored his presentation accordingly. Yes, that was a long time ago, but the consensus at that seminar formed the cornerstone of the FBI RII (Relative Incapacitation Index), that, as far as I know, still stands unchallenged today.

Of more immediate interest are the several ER/trauma physicians I have run across at various times, while assisting in the investigating of one of our OIS or another, lesser state agency's OIS (such as the agency head who shot himself in the ass with a PPK in a New Orleans hotel room). They said big bullets do more damage than smaller ones, which should be obvious.

Look, I am not trying to convince anyone of anything. This topic is one of those that will be endlessly argued, and nobody will ever win... because there is plenty of anecdotal evidence to support both sides of the argument. For every instance where a 9mm proponent shows that the .45 didn't "work", one can find an instance where the 9mm didn't either.

Some are saying that the recent groundswell movement back to the 9mm by LE proves that the 9mm is better. Nonsense. The reasons for this change are threefold: first, and foremost, is that the 9mm is easier to shoot and general qual scores are higher with it. Second and third are about tied, IMO. The .40 cartridge is hard on some guns (mainly those that were originally designed as 9mms and were modified to take the .40), requiring more frequent replacement; and/or ammunition costs are less with the 9mm. The fact that new bullet design makes the 9mm perform better is a side note. Administrators/bean counters are not concerned with that; otherwise, the .38 Special RNL would not have thrived as the standard police cartridge for as long as it did.

All I'm saying here is why _I_ prefer the big bullet for MY applications. I have a bunch of 9mm pistols, and in fact plan to break them out in a SHTF situation; because, capacity. And if, while strolling through the mall doing my "quality time" duty with my bride, I end up up in the middle of a jihad, then I'll probably say to myself "Damn. Wish I had one of my high capacity .380 Long Rifle launchers." At that point, it will suck to be me.

Until then, I think I'll muddle along with a lesser number of bigger bullets.;)

.

[LSP972]

the most important feature of my PD handgun is to deliver multiple rounds on target as fast as I can, which is why I carry a 9mm.

And given that you are solely accountable for every round you launch, that can be a double-edged sword.

.

[Tamara]

It's not that 9mm isn't capable of good solid hits at 50+ it's that I prefer something with a flatter trajectory.

Thing is, unlike rifle bullets, where there's a significant difference between, say, .22-250 and .45-70, all service caliber pistol bullets are traveling at pretty much the same speed. The difference in "drop" at fifty yards between the slowest .45ACP and the fastest .357SIG is, what? Two inches? Three?

[TCinVA]

All handgun bullets poke little holes in things. Some poke little shallow holes and should be avoided when possible. Some poke deep little holes and should be used when possible.

It's up to the person launching said bullets to poke those holes in something that matters. This requires training. Training requires resources. Resources are limited.

Beyond that, when poking little holes in things one hole rarely accomplishes the mission. To get the desired effect expect that it will require making a few little holes in something important in short order.

There is a desired effect bonus available if you are sufficiently skilled to poke holes in a bad man's head, as at the very least that seems to interfere with his ability to continue hostilities for a short time.

For the vast majority of people...and by vast majority I mean a pie chart that looks like tiny-mouth Pac-Man...the dominant instinct when faced with a threat to their life is to point the gun in the general direction of the bad guy and pull the trigger as fast as they can. If you examine lots of gunfight footage with handguns you will often find a rate of fire of 4 shots per second.

Knowing that it will probably take more than one shot, and knowing that the well-trained and the average person alike are likely to expend ammunition fast in the real thing, I tend to view capacity as opportunity. Using the 1/4 second per shot average deduced from study of real gunfights as a guide, it’s possible to express capacity as time. With a S&W J frame I have 1.25 seconds of cyclic-rate fire to stop whatever threat I’m facing. With my P30 (15+1 capacity) I have 4 seconds. That means I’m able to keep shooting 3.25 times longer with my P30 than my S&W 442. Because I'm a slightly better than average shooter, I can make reasonably aimed shots at a rate of 4 shots per second whereas the poorly trained shooter is pulling the trigger in hope rather than expectation with that speed.

Being the first person to be unable to poke any more little holes in things is usually not a good place to be in a fight.

So for the vast majority of people the 9mm is king. It offers far more of what they need than any other pistol cartridge. Reasonable terminal effect. A plethora of reliable weapon options, at least one or two of which will fit them. Minimal resource commitment required to train...and due to that more opportunity to train. And due to that a better chance of poking a little hole in something important. More chances to poke that little hole in something important on board the gun.

Somebody who needs to shoot bears should pick something different.
Somebody who is a much better shooter than the vast majority of people should do whatever the hell they want because they will anyway.
Somebody who is too physically frail to handle a 9mm should use something they can handle because some gun is always better than no gun.

Everybody else should stick to a 9.

[BJJ]

Excellent post, TC.

[BehindBlueI's]

For the vast majority of people...and by vast majority I mean a pie chart that looks like tiny-mouth Pac-Man...the dominant instinct when faced with a threat to their life is to point the gun in the general direction of the bad guy and pull the trigger as fast as they can. If you examine lots of gunfight footage with handguns you will often find a rate of fire of 4 shots per second.

Knowing that it will probably take more than one shot, and knowing that the well-trained and the average person alike are likely to expend ammunition fast in the real thing, I tend to view capacity as opportunity. Using the 1/4 second per shot average deduced from study of real gunfights as a guide, it’s possible to express capacity as time. With a S&W J frame I have 1.25 seconds of cyclic-rate fire to stop whatever threat I’m facing. With my P30 (15+1 capacity) I have 4 seconds. That means I’m able to keep shooting 3.25 times longer with my P30 than my S&W 442. Because I'm a slightly better than average shooter, I can make reasonably aimed shots at a rate of 4 shots per second whereas the poorly trained shooter is pulling the trigger in hope rather than expectation with that speed.

The huge increase in cyclical rate is absolutely correct, but I'd disagree with your conclusions based on that.

1) The DA trigger FORCES you to slow down. Also the theory behind the much maligned DAK trigger, which sucks for administrative shooting but is designed to compensate for stress fire cyclical rates. You will not shoot all guns equally fast.
2) The time you can spend running the trigger like a sewing machine is irrelevant, and is why more shots =/= more hits. Once the gunfight gets beyond arm's length distances, the percentage of shots that hit drop dramatically after the first 1-3. In instances were 3 shots are fired, you get about 1-3 hits. In instances were 12 shots are fired, you get about 1-3 hits. Why? On the shooter's end they aren't letting the gun settle out of recoil and they are stitching upward, they are shoving the gun around, and they are target focused and ignoring the sights. Add in the fact that all parties are now likely moving, seeking or obtaining cover, and distances are opening up and the shots that need to be made are getting harder and harder while the shooting ability is getting worse and worse.

Study after study has shown that LEO hit rates went down when they transitioned to semi-autos. Many people attribute this to the psychological effect of knowing you have more bullets to use and thus not being as choosy about launching one. I think that's BS. The psychology is "I need to shoot this guy right now" regardless of what weapon is in your hand when you need to use lethal force. Rather the hit rate was higher because fewer rounds were fired. The situations were resolved in the same amount of time, but fewer bullets were launched in that time frame. The longer delay between shots also forced the shooter to let the gun settle more as the longer trigger made him slow down, and they weren't throwing as many rounds over the targets head.

[TCinVA]

Study after study has shown that LEO hit rates went down when they transitioned to semi-autos.


Tom Givens students have a 95% hit rate in gunfights.

LEO hit rates are largely a function of LEO training and standards, which are largely shit. At dinner the other night with William Aprill and Greg Ellifritz we joked that the best way to avoid being shot by a police officer was to pretend to be a B27 and blow a whistle.

I do not believe DA guns make inexperienced or minimally trained shooters more accurate or deliberate under stress. I believe they offer a greater margin of error in terms of safe handling, but I don't think that the inherent characteristics of a DA trigger make the poorly trained shooter more accurate. It's true that they may not be able to make the gun go bang quite as fast, but with completely unsophisticated trigger control those slower shots are going to go just as wild if not even wilder than you would see with a shorter, lighter trigger pull. I've watched a decent number of minimally trained shooters trying to use DA and DAO guns on the range and it's usually a horror show as they attempt to smash the living hell out of the heavier trigger, applying more torque and moving the gun a whole lot more. The gun doesn't really "settle" with these people. It's in a state of constant motion as they flex their entire hand from shot to shot, hacking at the trigger like an inexperienced driver who stomps the brakes to the floor in one violent motion.

...and that's with shooters who have big enough hands to properly reach the triggers. The horror show gets worse when dealing with individuals of a smaller stature who struggle to reach the trigger, have to take a compromised grip just to have a shot at activating it, and have pretty weak grip strength.

The NYPD's Glocks are configured to try and replicate the benefits of the DA revolver's trigger, but that hasn't seemed to really help NYPD's accuracy with a handgun in aggregate.

[Glenn E. Meyer]

Here's an abstract for a recent view on bullet impact mechanisms.

http://www.safetylit.org/citations/index.php?fuseaction=citations.viewdetails&citationIds[]=citjournalarticle_499628_20


These studies have shown that in rifle injuries the main wound tract is surrounded by an area of damaged tissue as a result of the temporary cavitation induced once the bullet becomes destabilized or deformed. On the other hand, the more commonly encountered non-deforming handgun bullets cause damage limited to the bullet's path, mainly as a result of localized crush injury.

Pretty clearly indicates the different between rifle and handgun bullets and the 'energy' discussion. Haven't read the whole thing as it would take a bit to break the pay wall.

The bit about the B-27 is really funny.

[Nephrology]

No clue. All I can tell you is, forensic pathologists (starting with Vincent DiMaio) and various ER doctors I have spoken with over the years, and who are interested in this stuff, all say the same thing... penetration is king, with caliber being queen. Dr. DiMaio's presentation did include some charts of the vascular system and major organs, and how damage in specific areas contributed to relative incapacitation. But the man was talking to a bunch of laymen more interested in the bottom line, and tailored his presentation accordingly. Yes, that was a long time ago, but the consensus at that seminar formed the cornerstone of the FBI RII (Relative Incapacitation Index), that, as far as I know, still stands unchallenged today.

Of more immediate interest are the several ER/trauma physicians I have run across at various times, while assisting in the investigating of one of our OIS or another, lesser state agency's OIS (such as the agency head who shot himself in the ass with a PPK in a New Orleans hotel room). They said big bullets do more damage than smaller ones, which should be obvious.

Look, I am not trying to convince anyone of anything. This topic is one of those that will be endlessly argued, and nobody will ever win... because there is plenty of anecdotal evidence to support both sides of the argument. For every instance where a 9mm proponent shows that the .45 didn't "work", one can find an instance where the 9mm didn't either.

Some are saying that the recent groundswell movement back to the 9mm by LE proves that the 9mm is better. Nonsense. The reasons for this change are threefold: first, and foremost, is that the 9mm is easier to shoot and general qual scores are higher with it. Second and third are about tied, IMO. The .40 cartridge is hard on some guns (mainly those that were originally designed as 9mms and were modified to take the .40), requiring more frequent replacement; and/or ammunition costs are less with the 9mm. The fact that new bullet design makes the 9mm perform better is a side note. Administrators/bean counters are not concerned with that; otherwise, the .38 Special RNL would not have thrived as the standard police cartridge for as long as it did.

All I'm saying here is why _I_ prefer the big bullet for MY applications. I have a bunch of 9mm pistols, and in fact plan to break them out in a SHTF situation; because, capacity. And if, while strolling through the mall doing my "quality time" duty with my bride, I end up up in the middle of a jihad, then I'll probably say to myself "Damn. Wish I had one of my high capacity .380 Long Rifle launchers." At that point, it will suck to be me.

Until then, I think I'll muddle along with a lesser number of bigger bullets.;)

.

Oh certainly. I don't really intend to "disprove" the conclusions that you have arrived at independently. Just wanted to get any information you might have that I don't to so that I don't pimped on something like this during my surgical rotation :)

[BehindBlueI's]

Tom Givens students have a 95% hit rate in gunfights.

LEO hit rates are largely a function of LEO training and standards, which are largely shit. At dinner the other night with William Aprill and Greg Ellifritz we joked that the best way to avoid being shot by a police officer was to pretend to be a B27 and blow a whistle.

I do not believe DA guns make inexperienced or minimally trained shooters more accurate or deliberate under stress. I believe they offer a greater margin of error in terms of safe handling, but I don't think that the inherent characteristics of a DA trigger make the poorly trained shooter more accurate. It's true that they may not be able to make the gun go bang quite as fast, but with completely unsophisticated trigger control those slower shots are going to go just as wild if not even wilder than you would see with a shorter, lighter trigger pull. I've watched a decent number of minimally trained shooters trying to use DA and DAO guns on the range and it's usually a horror show as they attempt to smash the living hell out of the heavier trigger, applying more torque and moving the gun a whole lot more. The gun doesn't really "settle" with these people. It's in a state of constant motion as they flex their entire hand from shot to shot, hacking at the trigger like an inexperienced driver who stomps the brakes to the floor in one violent motion.

...and that's with shooters who have big enough hands to properly reach the triggers. The horror show gets worse when dealing with individuals of a smaller stature who struggle to reach the trigger, have to take a compromised grip just to have a shot at activating it, and have pretty weak grip strength.

The NYPD's Glocks are configured to try and replicate the benefits of the DA revolver's trigger, but that hasn't seemed to really help NYPD's accuracy with a handgun in aggregate.

LE shootings, in aggregate, involve longer distances, involve more moving targets, involve more use of cover and intermediate barriers, and involve more reacting to ambush (ie being shot at first and reacting). Random violence victims tend strongly to be within arms length and no more than 7', rarely have any sort of intermediate barrier at the beginning of the fight, and are forcing the bad guy to react to them (pulling a concealed weapon during a robbery or the like).

Our department has a higher than normal hit rate, which is primarily due to realistic training and simunition use IMO...but it still drops off dramatically as the encounter lengthens. Shooting a man sized target at 3' and hitting a suspect laying behind a car and parking bump at 25y in the dark will generally change hit rates.

[veteran-USMC]

The huge increase in cyclical rate is absolutely correct, but I'd disagree with your conclusions based on that.

1) The DA trigger FORCES you to slow down. Also the theory behind the much maligned DAK trigger, which sucks for administrative shooting but is designed to compensate for stress fire cyclical rates. You will not shoot all guns equally fast.
2) The time you can spend running the trigger like a sewing machine is irrelevant, and is why more shots =/= more hits. Once the gunfight gets beyond arm's length distances, the percentage of shots that hit drop dramatically after the first 1-3. In instances were 3 shots are fired, you get about 1-3 hits. In instances were 12 shots are fired, you get about 1-3 hits. Why? On the shooter's end they aren't letting the gun settle out of recoil and they are stitching upward, they are shoving the gun around, and they are target focused and ignoring the sights. Add in the fact that all parties are now likely moving, seeking or obtaining cover, and distances are opening up and the shots that need to be made are getting harder and harder while the shooting ability is getting worse and worse.

Study after study has shown that LEO hit rates went down when they transitioned to semi-autos. Many people attribute this to the psychological effect of knowing you have more bullets to use and thus not being as choosy about launching one. I think that's BS. The psychology is "I need to shoot this guy right now" regardless of what weapon is in your hand when you need to use lethal force. Rather the hit rate was higher because fewer rounds were fired. The situations were resolved in the same amount of time, but fewer bullets were launched in that time frame. The longer delay between shots also forced the shooter to let the gun settle more as the longer trigger made him slow down, and they weren't throwing as many rounds over the targets head. Hello! I have found that when the slide go's back & then forward causes your front sight to slightly move up & then down whereas with a revolver the front sight stays where you had it last sighted in-thus you have more accurate shots.

[Hauptmann]

LE shootings, in aggregate, involve longer distances, involve more moving targets, involve more use of cover and intermediate barriers, and involve more reacting to ambush (ie being shot at first and reacting). Random violence victims tend strongly to be within arms length and no more than 7', rarely have any sort of intermediate barrier at the beginning of the fight, and are forcing the bad guy to react to them (pulling a concealed weapon during a robbery or the like).

Our department has a higher than normal hit rate, which is primarily due to realistic training and simunition use IMO...but it still drops off dramatically as the encounter lengthens. Shooting a man sized target at 3' and hitting a suspect laying behind a car and parking bump at 25y in the dark will generally change hit rates.

Right on the money. It doesn't matter if we are talking higher trained officers or not, the miss percentage is still high LE due to the characteristics of the ambush. I can site a number of former and current SWAT 1-on-1 OISs that occured during regular patrol that resulted in well over 30rds fired before the threat was stopped. Multiple torso hits with .45acp JHPs, and head shots were required to stop the bad guy from shooting back. Officer Keith Borders and Officer Tim Gramins were two such high volume .45acp shootings that required head shots to win the fight. Officer Peter Soulis is another good example of a 1-on-1 shootout with a larger caliber and high round count.

Aim better, shoot faster, and carry a lot of bullets is the best advice.

[LSP972]

Right on the money. It doesn't matter if we are talking higher trained officers or not, the miss percentage is still high LE due to the characteristics of the ambush. I can site a number of former and current SWAT 1-on-1 OISs that occured during regular patrol that resulted in well over 30rds fired before the threat was stopped. Multiple torso hits with .45acp JHPs, and head shots were required to stop the bad guy from shooting back. Officer Keith Borders and Officer Tim Gramins were two such high volume .45acp shootings that required head shots to win the fight. Officer Peter Soulis is another good example of a 1-on-1 shootout with a larger caliber and high round count.

Aim better, shoot faster, and carry a lot of bullets is the best advice.

I'm experiencing a bit of deja vu here. For those of us still wearing the uniform, still chasing bad guys, the above advice is indeed right on the money. But I think the OP's question was regarding his PERSONAL carry piece as an armed citizen. The difference has been mentioned here a time or two, but the majority of the thread participants seem to be harping on what is needed for an active, aggressive law enforcer; not an armed citizen looking to mind his own business and protect his own. For some who may not have figured it out yet, the two scenarios are worlds apart.

I'm reminded of many of the responses I got when, in another thread, I was musing about what carbine to purchase. While it was all well-intentioned and sincere, much of the advice I got seemed to be predicated on me headed to a combat zone in full kit. Ah... no. BTDT. Those days are over. Just as my days of chasing bad guys as the po-lice are over.

Certainly, there are overlaps between the two worlds. But they are most definitely different.

.

[veteran-USMC]

I'm experiencing a bit of deja vu here. For those of us still wearing the uniform, still chasing bad guys, the above advice is indeed right on the money. But I think the OP's question was regarding his PERSONAL carry piece as an armed citizen. The difference has been mentioned here a time or two, but the majority of the thread participants seem to be harping on what is needed for an active, aggressive law enforcer; not an armed citizen looking to mind his own business and protect his own. For some who may not have figured it out yet, the two scenarios are worlds apart.

I'm reminded of many of the responses I got when, in another thread, I was musing about what carbine to purchase. While it was all well-intentioned and sincere, much of the advice I got seemed to be predicated on me headed to a combat zone in full kit. Ah... no. BTDT. Those days are over. Just as my days of chasing bad guys as the po-lice are over.

I certainly agee with everything in your post.
Many thanks for your experienced insight! When an attacker confronts someone -they either piss in their pants,turn tail and run, or fall down & give up or advance in their attack. Most people don't realize that an attack inside the home might be decided in 1.26 bullets. I have practiced the tueller drill which gives you aprox. 1.26 seconds(amazing how much ground can be covered in 1.26 seconds!

My question is--with maybe having the time to fire 1-2 rounds(if your lucky) --What .357 revolver would you recommend to me. Our local range has many for rent!
Have you shot or heard how good a S&W Model 19 .357 Combat Magnum (2.5 " barrel) is?
Again thanks for your time & experience!

Semper Fi!
Mike

Certainly, there are overlaps between the two worlds. But they are most definitely different.

.

[Chuck Haggard]

I've found the good Dr's quote to be true in my experience;

“…there is no appreciable difference in the effectiveness of the 9 mm and the .45 ACP cartridges.”
Vincent J. M. Di Maio, GUNSHOT WOUNDS: Practical Aspects of Firearms, Ballistics, and Forensic Techniques SECOND EDITION, Page 150.

Our local coroner backed me up when I went to the Chief to advocate that we dump the non working G22s we had and go back to 9mms. Doc was firmly of the opinion that the 9mm worked as well as the .40 in his observation, and JHPs from the 9 expended much more reliably on the street than the .45 shootings he had seen.


Locally, we had fewer shots fired in OISs after we went to double stack 9mms from .357 mags, and have kept a rather high hit rate going for decades, at one point in my time as the rangemaster we went nine OISs in 18 months with 100% hits. Up until a couple of recent incidents, one being a mobile active-shooter armed with an AR (which you might expect to turn into a high round count event) we hadn't fired more than four rounds to put a bad guy down, in a time frame of almost 30 years.

9mm being cheaper to train with helps the program, a lot.

[psalms144.1]

Mike - I'm not sure you're hearing what a lot of folks have been suggesting, and I think you've convinced yourself that your Home Defense scenario will be a single, non-dedicated threat (the guy who "pisses his pants" for instance. What if your really bad day is a group of dedicated, experienced, and heavily armed home invasion types? That's the LAST possible time I'd want a hard-kicking, low capacity, slow to reload handgun.

But, it sounds like you've convinced yourself that you want "more power," in the form of a .357 wheelie. The Model 19 is a great concealed carry gun (if I could find one at a fair price I'd snap it up, just out of nostalgia) but, for home defense, why hamper yourself with a short(ish) barrel? For HD, within reason, weight is your friend. I'd look for a 4" pistol - S&W 686 is a good place to start, the Ruger GP100 was always a good performer for me as well.

I will bow out at this point, though, and let Nyeti or some of the other revolver experts add their comments.

Best of luck!

[veteran-USMC]

Mike - I'm not sure you're hearing what a lot of folks have been suggesting, and I think you've convinced yourself that your Home Defense scenario will be a single, non-dedicated threat (the guy who "pisses his pants" for instance. What if your really bad day is a group of dedicated, experienced, and heavily armed home invasion types? That's the LAST possible time I'd want a hard-kicking, low capacity, slow to reload handgun.

But, it sounds like you've convinced yourself that you want "more power," in the form of a .357 wheelie. The Model 19 is a great concealed carry gun (if I could find one at a fair price I'd snap it up, just out of nostalgia) but, for home defense, why hamper yourself with a short(ish) barrel? For HD, within reason, weight is your friend. I'd look for a 4" pistol - S&W 686 is a good place to start, the Ruger GP100 was always a good performer for me as well.

I will bow out at this point, though, and let Nyeti or some of the other revolver experts add their comments.

Best of luck!

Hi psalms144.1! Sorry if I gave you the wrong impression of needing just the power of a 357 magnum revolver! Guess I am from the old school & have to accept that sometimes home invasions are done by 2-5 people! Thus any revolver is going to leave you dead! In the Marines as an MP I had 2 shooting incidences with a 45 caliber Colt with full metal jacket. In each case 1 round stopped the target. I was taught in the Marines that after the second shot absorbed by your target that the brains pain recepters shut off-thus taking more rounds to stop an attacker with whatever ammo you are using. My question to you psalms144.1 is I am deciding between 45caliber & 9mm handgun--any opinions? People think that a shot to the head is their answer to stopping an attacker but fail to realize that in a shooting encounter the head is moving along with other factors.


thanks for your thoughts.
Semper Fi!

[Paladin]

Until then, I think I'll muddle along with a lesser number of bigger bullets.;) {QUOTE}


Go ahead and count this stolen, and the for the same reasons mentioned above as well as my nephew being a emergencey room Dr. in San Bernardino Ca. and stating they could always tell by the damage done when it was caused by a 45 because it was more signifiant. Thats not to say anything is wrong with 9mm as also shoot and carry that as well just prefer 45 in a Dan Wesson CCO.

Rick

[RevolverRob]

Thing is, unlike rifle bullets, where there's a significant difference between, say, .22-250 and .45-70, all service caliber pistol bullets are traveling at pretty much the same speed. The difference in "drop" at fifty yards between the slowest .45ACP and the fastest .357SIG is, what? Two inches? Three?

According to this table - http://www.chuckhawks.com/handgun_trajectory_table.htm - About seven inches between .357 Sig and .45. Much closer between 9mm and .357 Sig (about two inches).

Part of it is trajectory, but part of it is velocity too. At 100 yards a 125-grain Gold Dot from a .357 Magnum is still supersonic at 100 yards, the 9mm has been subsonic since about 50 yards. That's a difference in terms of terminal effectiveness on longer distance shots. But yes, overall, I agree that in service caliber bullets it's mostly a mute point. My point is, if one suspects they will spend an extended period of time working in a place where a longer shot might be more likely for whatever reason, I'd move away from a service caliber gun to something better suited for the purpose. I.E. see TC's post - or I.E. a magnum revolver, or a hurty-McBlaster in 10mm with a lot of oomph on both ends.

[Tamara]

According to this table - http://www.chuckhawks.com/handgun_trajectory_table.htm - About seven inches between .357 Sig and .45. Much closer between 9mm and .357 Sig (about two inches).

...and that's at a hundred. At fifty, they're all pretty much the same.

But, yeah, for Farmer Frank James, there was a reason he so loved his .41s and 10mms. I don't shoot 75 yard coyotes from a tractor seat very often. :)

[Chuck Haggard]

I was taught in the Marines that after the second shot absorbed by your target that the brains pain recepters shut off-thus taking more rounds to stop an attacker with whatever ammo you are using

That's a commonly repeated myth.

[Nephrology]

The difference has been mentioned here a time or two, but the majority of the thread participants seem to be harping on what is needed for an active, aggressive law enforcer; not an armed citizen looking to mind his own business and protect his own.

.

Honestly, for the majority of private citizen CCW encounters, a 5 shot revolver or a single stack 9mm is probably sufficient. I often carry the aforementioned guns, but I still carry a Glock 19 as often as I can.

[BehindBlueI's]

That's a commonly repeated myth.

I think the most shots I've seen in a still alive person was 12, most through and through, and he seemed to agree that his pain receptors had NOT shut off.

[Hauptmann]

According to this table - http://www.chuckhawks.com/handgun_trajectory_table.htm - About seven inches between .357 Sig and .45. Much closer between 9mm and .357 Sig (about two inches).

Part of it is trajectory, but part of it is velocity too. At 100 yards a 125-grain Gold Dot from a .357 Magnum is still supersonic at 100 yards, the 9mm has been subsonic since about 50 yards. That's a difference in terms of terminal effectiveness on longer distance shots. .

Federal tested their 9mm 147gr HST loads down to 800fps, and their .45acp 230gr HST loads down to 700fps. Both still retained acceptable expansion in bare gel at those velocities. Thus, both are capable of good expansion at 100yrds.

[veteran-USMC]

Honestly, for the majority of private citizen CCW encounters, a 5 shot revolver or a single stack 9mm is probably sufficient. I often carry the aforementioned guns, but I still carry a Glock 19 as often as I can.

Not to cause conflict BUT most home invasions are occurring with 2-5 or more people entering a home.

[veteran-USMC]

That's a commonly repeated myth.

Thanks for educating me on that myth but never-the less that's what I was taught! Unless you hit a vital area you better hope the person bleeds out. The bigger the expansion of the jhp the more bleeding will occur!

[HCM]

Not to cause conflict BUT most home invasions are occurring with 2-5 or more people entering a home.

Most "home invasions" are daytime burglaries gone wrong. Basically "meeting engagements" where a burglar or burglars break in thinking no one is home when that is not the case.

As far as actual targeted home invasions, they usually relate to one of three things: You or those you live with are involved in drug dealing or other criminal activity; 2) you are bringing home large amounts of cash or other valuables for a business; or 3) retaliation due to professional or personal issues. If none of these describes you the odds on an intentional home invasion are low.

That said, Bullets are opportunities.

[Kimura]

Until then, I think I'll muddle along with a lesser number of bigger bullets.;) {QUOTE}


Go ahead and count this stolen, and the for the same reasons mentioned above as well as my nephew being a emergencey room Dr. in San Bernardino Ca. and stating they could always tell by the damage done when it was caused by a 45 because it was more signifiant. Thats not to say anything is wrong with 9mm as also shoot and carry that as well just prefer 45 in a Dan Wesson CCO.

Rick
Your nephew's a lucky guy. I'm sure he's getting a lot of experience. San Bern is a shithole.


Hi psalms144.1! Sorry if I gave you the wrong impression of needing just the power of a 357 magnum revolver! Guess I am from the old school & have to accept that sometimes home invasions are done by 2-5 people! Thus any revolver is going to leave you dead! In the Marines as an MP I had 2 shooting incidences with a 45 caliber Colt with full metal jacket. In each case 1 round stopped the target. I was taught in the Marines that after the second shot absorbed by your target that the brains pain recepters shut off-thus taking more rounds to stop an attacker with whatever ammo you are using. My question to you psalms144.1 is I am deciding between 45caliber & 9mm handgun--any opinions? People think that a shot to the head is their answer to stopping an attacker but fail to realize that in a shooting encounter the head is moving along with other factors.


thanks for your thoughts.
Semper Fi!

I like all the major duty/defense calibers. I think each brings something a little different to the table. And different people answer your question differently based on their experience. Scott Reitz wrote a piece a couple of years back where he said .45 is the best choice by far. And I have BTDT friends that say the same. I admit that I'm personally a big bullet guy, so all things being equal .45 is the choice. But all things aren't equal and there are balances that need to be considered by every individual that has a choice. Note that if you're issued the firearm, learn to love it because it's what you get. But for the rest of us it's a balance. Most has already been mentioned here and everywhere else; caliber versus capacity, resources or lack there of as in money for ammo and maintenance, can you shoot all of the calibers fairly equally, is concealment a consideration and on and on. People, well knowledgeable people like Doc, point to 9mm because of high capacity, ammo and maintenance costs, easiest to shoot for most, good easily concealable options etc. Those are all good points. Someone else said that penetration and bullet size are king or something close to that and I agree with that, but considering that a box of practice ammo for 9mm is approximately $10 versus the cost of .45 which is usually at least $15 or more, well that adds up after awhile, so less practice occurs. If you have unlimited resources, go for whatever works for you.

This is how I see it. I love revolvers, and I think the Jframe still has a place, but other than that outside of special circumstances I think they're collectables. That coming from someone who loves .44 magnum. 9mm offers the aforementioned benefits. .45 is obvious; big bullets and excellent penetration but at the cost of capacity and or a pistol of a reasonable size and or weight; .40 is what it has always been; the compromise. Relatively big bullets and relatively high capacity both in a 9mm sized pistol, but the cost is more frequent so more expensive maintenance than 9mm. .357 sig is a kick to shoot, but I don't see what it does that one of the others doesn't do.

My long winded point is that you have to balance those things for yourself. No one else can really do it for you because as you can see there's no real consensus on what's "right". And there isn't because it's different for everyone. Good luck with your choice.

[LSP972]

I've found the good Dr's quote to be true in my experience;

“…there is no appreciable difference in the effectiveness of the 9 mm and the .45 ACP cartridges.”
Vincent J. M. Di Maio, GUNSHOT WOUNDS: Practical Aspects of Firearms, Ballistics, and Forensic Techniques SECOND EDITION, Page 150.



That is NOT what he said at Quantico in 1993. When was that book published?

N/M, I looked it up; 1998.

Well, here we go. Your coroner said this, my ER docs said that. One expert says this, another expert says that. Another expert says this, and then changes his mind to that.

Like _I_ said… a never-ending argument with no possible resolution.

.

.

[Nephrology]

That is NOT what he said at Quantico in 1993. When was that book published?

N/M, I looked it up; 1998.

Well, here we go. Your coroner said this, my ER docs said that. One expert says this, another expert says that. Another expert says this, and then changes his mind to that.

Like _I_ said… a never-ending argument with no possible resolution.

.

.

I should probably mention that being an ER physician doesn't mean that you are an expert on traumatic injury. The majority of patients seen in the ED are not traumas, and the majority of traumas (in most areas) are not GSWs. Furthermore, the job of an ER physician is to stop bleeding, push packed RBCs/plasma, and prep them to get taken care of by a trauma surgeon. I wouldn't necessarily use them as an appeal to authority. People like Dr DeMaio/Dr Fackler/Dr Roberts who have dedicated a substantial amount of time and energy to specifically studying the effects of GSWs on human physiology will be much better informed than your average MD.

[SteveB]

That is NOT what he said at Quantico in 1993. When was that book published?

N/M, I looked it up; 1998.

Well, here we go. Your coroner said this, my ER docs said that. One expert says this, another expert says that. Another expert says this, and then changes his mind to that.

Like _I_ said… a never-ending argument with no possible resolution.

.

.

Big difference in 9mm bullet performance now vs when the Silvertip or the Hydra-Shok was state-of-the-art.

[breakingtime91]

I should probably mention that being an ER physician doesn't mean that you are an expert on traumatic injury. The majority of patients seen in the ED are not traumas, and the majority of traumas (in most areas) are not GSWs. Furthermore, the job of an ER physician is to stop bleeding, push packed RBCs/plasma, and prep them to get taken care of by a trauma surgeon. I wouldn't necessarily use them as an appeal to authority. People like Dr DeMaio/Dr Fackler/Dr Roberts who have dedicated a substantial amount of time and energy to specifically studying the effects of GSWs on human physiology will be much better informed than your average MD.

^what this person said. Also, not saying your friend did this, but some people just say shit to say shit

[Hauptmann]

I should probably mention that being an ER physician doesn't mean that you are an expert on traumatic injury. The majority of patients seen in the ED are not traumas, and the majority of traumas (in most areas) are not GSWs. Furthermore, the job of an ER physician is to stop bleeding, push packed RBCs/plasma, and prep them to get taken care of by a trauma surgeon. I wouldn't necessarily use them as an appeal to authority. People like Dr DeMaio/Dr Fackler/Dr Roberts who have dedicated a substantial amount of time and energy to specifically studying the effects of GSWs on human physiology will be much better informed than your average MD.

The million dollar question to ask ER docs is not what caliber was used, but what projectile was used. That question rarely gets attention. The number one caliber using in US homicides is .22lr.....because it is cheap. 9mm FMJ is also the most common bullet type used in homicides.

[stingray]

Mike - I'm not sure you're hearing what a lot of folks have been suggesting, and I think you've convinced yourself that your Home Defense scenario will be a single, non-dedicated threat (the guy who "pisses his pants" for instance. What if your really bad day is a group of dedicated, experienced, and heavily armed home invasion types? That's the LAST possible time I'd want a hard-kicking, low capacity, slow to reload handgun.

But, it sounds like you've convinced yourself that you want "more power," in the form of a .357 wheelie. The Model 19 is a great concealed carry gun (if I could find one at a fair price I'd snap it up, just out of nostalgia) but, for home defense, why hamper yourself with a short(ish) barrel? For HD, within reason, weight is your friend. I'd look for a 4" pistol - S&W 686 is a good place to start, the Ruger GP100 was always a good performer for me as well.

I will bow out at this point, though, and let Nyeti or some of the other revolver experts add their comments.

Best of luck!

I'm kind of toying with the idea of an AK pistol. :-)

[Hauptmann]

I'm kind of toying with the idea of an AK pistol. :-)

I'm sure you are joking, but just to add to the discussion......

1989 Stockton CA shooting with AK-47. 35 children and adults shot at close range, only five died. M43 FMJ ammunition was used, which behaves similar to 9mm ball in that it does not yaw or expand. The projectile is key, not the caliber.
http://www.uthr.org/SpecialReports/Martin%20Fackler,%20Stockton%20case.txt

[stingray]

Not to cause conflict BUT most home invasions are occurring with 2-5 or more people entering a home.

I recently retired after 27+ years as a cop. It has been my experience that most "home invasions" are conducted by rival drug dealers. I never worked one that wasn't drug related. Just saying.......

[Tamara]

I recently retired after 27+ years as a cop. It has been my experience that most "home invasions" are conducted by rival drug dealers. I never worked one that wasn't drug related. Just saying.......

Just (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cheshire,_Connecticut,_home_invasion_murders) saying (http://fox59.com/2013/11/04/documents-reveal-graphic-details-of-home-invasion-robbery-sexual-assaults/), know what I mean?

(I've got a crap ton more links where those came from, but I'll have to extract them from text files and I've got something to do at the moment.)

[stingray]

Just (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cheshire,_Connecticut,_home_invasion_murders) saying (http://fox59.com/2013/11/04/documents-reveal-graphic-details-of-home-invasion-robbery-sexual-assaults/), know what I mean?

(I've got a crap ton more links where those came from, but I'll have to extract them from text files and I've got something to do at the moment.)

Yeah I only spoke from my personal, first hand experience. I should have googled my experience first.

[veteran-USMC]

I recently retired after 27+ years as a cop. It has been my experience that most "home invasions" are conducted by rival drug dealers. I never worked one that wasn't drug related. Just saying.......

In my town 3 men were posing as salesmen & had 1 home invasion! Please note that these 3 men were knocking on many house doors before being reported to police. These men were were dressed(shirt & tie) short haircuts. How do I know this because one night -aprox. 21/2 years ago my wife & I had a visit from these same 3 men posing as salesmen. They told me they had some church products to sell & claimed they knew what church I went to. When I asked through an unopened door what church did I attend -they answered -You know the one down the street. They could not give me the name of the church & I gave them instructions to get the hell off my property. They ran off my front yard onto a back street. I called our local police who reported that 4 other home owners in our town had reported almost the same thing happening to them & gave the same report of how the 3 men looked. Three hours later they were caught trying to steal a car.These 3 men had been reported to be doing the fore-mentioned in 2 other near-by towns. My point is that all home invasions are not drug related.

[Beat Trash]

Not to cause conflict BUT most home invasions are occurring with 2-5 or more people entering a home.

My experience with investigating home invasion robberies is that they are mostly drug related. The very few that are not drug related are where the suspects got the wrong address by mistake. (In other words, drug related, but the suspect's sense of direction sucked.)

But street robberies are another matter...

A couple of years ago, there was an active topic going on about the Glock 19 being the new J-Frame. A major theme in this topic being multiple suspects. After reading the topic, I went to work and had one of the crime analysts in the District I was assigned at the time run a report for me. I wanted the stats on armed robberies (Aggravated Robberies) in my District over the last 90 days. What I wanted to know was what the average number of suspects were. If there were multiple suspects, I wanted to know how many were armed. The average number of suspects was three. If one was armed, then on average, all were armed.

This was not LEO OIS incidents, but citizens who were victims of crime. AKA: your average person trying to live their life.

Think about being confronted by multiple suspects and all of the sudden that 5 shot J-Frame or that single stack 9mm Shield seems a bit on the light side as far as capacity goes.

If a person trains with a 45 acp pistol and is comfortable with their performance with that gun and caliber, I would never try to dissuade them. But for me, even after I retire I will continue to carry a 9mm pistol with a double stack magazine.

[stingray]

My experience with investigating home invasion robberies is that they are mostly drug related. The very few that are not drug related are where the suspects got the wrong address by mistake. (In other words, drug related, but the suspect's sense of direction sucked.)

But street robberies are another matter...

A couple of years ago, there was an active topic going on about the Glock 19 being the new J-Frame. A major theme in this topic being multiple suspects. After reading the topic, I went to work and had one of the crime analysts in the District I was assigned at the time to run a report for me. I wanted the stats on armed robberies (Aggravated Robberies) in my District over the last 90 days. What I wanted to know what the average number of suspects were, and if there were multiple suspects, how many were armed. The average number of suspects was three. If one was armed, then on average, all were armed.

This was not LEO OIS incidents, but citizens who were victims of crime. AKA: your average person trying to live their life. Think about being confronted by multiple suspects and all of the sudden that 5 shot J-Frame or that single stack 9mm Shield seems a bit on the light side as far as capacity goes.

If a person trains with a 45 cap pistol and is comfortable with their performance with that gun and caliber, I will never try to dissuade them. But even after I retire, I will continue to carry a 9mm pistol with a double stack magazine.

Seems your experience is very similar to mine.......just saying, know what I mean? ;-)

[41magfan]

We will never be able to identify or quantify all the variables that might cause an interruption in hostility, but we’ve known for eons that most bad guys stop being bad when they get shot ….. period.

But, what none of the true believers in “ballistic equivalency” has been able to answer to my satisfaction is why the 9mm doesn’t perform as well as the larger calibers in the game fields – CNS and marginal hits notwithstanding.

Most people with any experience shooting stuff comprised of living flesh and bones will tell you the .45 ACP will – all things being equal - outperform the 9mm on any critter weighing over 40 or 50 lbs ..... usually by a noticeable margin.

All things being equal, bigger bullets cause more tissue damage and subsequent bleeding than smaller ones, which causes the animal to expire quicker. That is the physiological reality, but everyone has to decide for themselves if it has any meaningful correlation to a self-defense application.

[Tamara]

Yeah I only spoke from my personal, first hand experience. I should have googled my experience first.

Your personal firsthand experience doesn't unrape and unkill anybody and is only applicable to your beat.


EDIT: Look, I get it that your best way to avoid a home invasion robbery is to not be in the dope biz. Doper on doper home invasions are the most common, which is why they get two seconds on the local morning news and page five in the paper. It's when Mr. & Mrs. Whitebread Suburbia get hit that it becomes news, and to say that it doesn't happen is just flat wrong. It's just much rarer, which is why it's news. Incidentally, the crew from one of those links took down two places in one week; the house at 79th and the one on Spring Mill (http://fox59.com/2015/09/08/sentencing-scheduled-for-men-convicted-in-north-side-home-invasion/). Both of those are within three miles of my crib, on sleepy, tree-lined, high property tax streets. That's plenty close enough to home for me.

[Gio]

I just kind of spot read through most of this thread, but in response to a lot of common posts/themes:

1. Shooting to incapacitate people is not the same as shooting animals.

2. Penetration ultimately beats expansion, because at the end of the day, if you fired at someone in self defense, the last thing you want is for your perfectly placed shot to stop short of a vital organ. See the FBI Miami shootout. Expansion is important as well, but the difference in expansion for 9, .40, and .45 in rounds that adequately penetrate is usually less than .1". Almost as important as these two factors is consistency. You want a round to do the same thing every time it passes through a certain barrier or under certain shooting conditions. If a round fails to penetrate 12" of gelatin 3 times out of 10 shots through a specific barrier, do you really want that round over the one that penetrates >12" after passing through that barrier 100% of the time?

3. You can't compare calibers, you need to compare specific bullets and loadings. A general statement saying "9mm is on par with .45" or ".40 penetrates barriers better than .45" demonstrates a lack of understanding that it is the bullet design and not the caliber that you should be comparing. You can find terribly performing rounds in all three of those calibers as well as outstanding rounds. For this same reason, you can't use general news stories or after action reports of LE involved shootings without knowing the specifics of shot placement and rounds used. The "ER Trauma surgeon" or "medical examiner" examples that people love to throw out which are used to support both sides either say they can't tell a difference in wound tracks between 9, .40, and .45 or they say that a wider round track always does more damage. They both cant be right, and they are both without enough facts to make an accurate determination because you don't know if they are comparing a 9mm FMJ to a .45 HST round.

4. I'd like to see 25 yd - 50 yd bill drill videos and bullseye targets from the people saying they want a flatter shooting trajectory for their handgun cartridge.

[stingray]

Your personal firsthand experience doesn't unrape and unkill anybody and is only applicable to your beat.


EDIT: Look, I get it that your best way to avoid a home invasion robbery is to not be in the dope biz. Doper on doper home invasions are the most common, which is why they get two seconds on the local morning news and page five in the paper. It's when Mr. & Mrs. Whitebread Suburbia get hit that it becomes news, and to say that it doesn't happen is just flat wrong. It's just much rarer, which is why it's news. Incidentally, the crew from one of those links took down two places in one week; the house at 79th and the one on Spring Mill (http://fox59.com/2015/09/08/sentencing-scheduled-for-men-convicted-in-north-side-home-invasion/). Both of those are within three miles of my crib, on sleepy, tree-lined, high property tax streets. That's plenty close enough to home for me.

I remain and always have remained ready to repel boarders. I do so because I've seen what happens to those who don't.

[Tamara]

I do so because I've seen what happens to those who don't.

I don't envy you that experience one bit. You have my respect.

[psalms144.1]

Mike - in response to your question regarding 9mm v 45 ACP, I'm authorized to carry either, have both in multiple platforms. I carry a G19 every day to work, with a G26 on my ankle as a BUG. Why the 9mm over the .45? 50% more magazine capacity in a similar sized package, and the ability to shoot more accurately at speed. How much more accurately? I ran a test a while back and posted results here, but, BLUF, shooting five rounds for time on a five inch shoot-n-c at five yards, the .45 was slower (measurably) and less accurate - a lot less accurate. To maintain similar accuracy with the .45, I had to slow my shooting down to about 50% pace of what I can run with the 9mm. So, shoot 50% slower to maintain accuracy, have 50% fewer rounds in the magazine - that's convincing, TO ME.

Now, I'll gladly caveat that that's shooting Glocks. If I switched to a 1911 for the .45, things would change - but it wouldn't really be an apples-to-apples comparison. I guess I could run the drill with my 1911 and my P7M8, but, frankly, I don't carry either.

The exception to my current position is for folks stuck in stupid places. I'm in NY, the stupidist place of all when it comes to firearms laws. With a maximum magazine size of 10 rounds, and a maximum allowable load in those magazines of 7 rounds, I can see the attraction of the .45, specifically the 1911 (carry permits here are rarer than hen's teeth, so concealment is rarely a concern). If you live somewhere more or less free, I'm down with 9mm.

None of this, however, takes away from two central points - YOU need to carry what YOU are confident in, and YOU need to carry what YOU are capable with. If that means your .357 Sig is the right answer for you, then carry on, Mac! And, perchance the BEST answer is to save the "new gun" money, buy ammunition, and head to a training course.

Warm Regards, and thanks for your service!

[BehindBlueI's]

Just (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cheshire,_Connecticut,_home_invasion_murders) saying (http://fox59.com/2013/11/04/documents-reveal-graphic-details-of-home-invasion-robbery-sexual-assaults/), know what I mean?

(I've got a crap ton more links where those came from, but I'll have to extract them from text files and I've got something to do at the moment.)

Those guys were very much the exception, and were a-holes who should have gotten the chair. It does happen to regular people, but its much much much more common for the motivation to be dope related with domestic related running a distant second.

[GJM]

We will never be able to identify or quantify all the variables that might cause an interruption in hostility, but we’ve known for eons that most bad guys stop being bad when they get shot ….. period.

But, what none of the true believers in “ballistic equivalency” has been able to answer to my satisfaction is why the 9mm doesn’t perform as well as the larger calibers in the game fields – CNS and marginal hits notwithstanding.

Most people with any experience shooting stuff comprised of living flesh and bones will tell you the .45 ACP will – all things being equal - outperform the 9mm on any critter weighing over 40 or 50 lbs ..... usually by a noticeable margin.

All things being equal, bigger bullets cause more tissue damage and subsequent bleeding than smaller ones, which causes the animal to expire quicker. That is the physiological reality, but everyone has to decide for themselves if it has any meaningful correlation to a self-defense application.

As a general rule, when hunting, you get to fire one shot at an undisturbed animal, at which point it is often difficult to get another good shot. On a one bullet for one bullet basis, all things considered, the edge is going to go the larger diameter, heavier bullet, and the .45 is certainly larger diameter and heavier than the 9.

The argument for the 9mm has to do with capacity and the relative ease of placing additional shots on a human target that doesn't run like a deer.

So, the .45 should do better than the .45 acp hunting, just as the heavy .45 LC should do better than the .45 acp. I don't think that necessarily makes the .45 LC better than acp on people, and a .45 acp necessarily better than the 9 on people. A related consideration is bullet placement. I started hunting in Africa with a .460 G&A and .470 NE, but migrated to a .416 Rigby as it better allowed me as a hunter to place a bullet, negating the pow of the larger calibers. If I was a PH trying to stop a charge at close range, though, I would be more interested in raw power, since the marksmanship challenge is less.

[Mr. Goodtimes]

If a person trains with a 45 acp pistol and is comfortable with their performance with that gun and caliber, I would never try to dissuade them. But for me, even after I retire I will continue to carry a 9mm pistol with a double stack magazine.

I feel very warm and fuzzy with my G19. I live in Florida and 16 rounds makes me feel fine not carrying a spare magazine, and that opens up more clothing options, clothing options that are not only comfortable but that say the complete opposite of "I'm carrying a gun."



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[GJM]

I feel very warm and fuzzy with my G19. I live in Florida and 16 rounds makes me feel fine not carrying a spare magazine, and that opens up more clothing options, clothing options that are not only comfortable but that say the complete opposite of "I'm carrying a gun."



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Here is some advice -- there is only one guy on this forum that can get away with admitting he doesn't carry an extra magazine, and he wears a fur hat.

[LSP972]

I should probably mention that being an ER physician doesn't mean that you are an expert on traumatic injury. The majority of patients seen in the ED are not traumas, and the majority of traumas (in most areas) are not GSWs. Furthermore, the job of an ER physician is to stop bleeding, push packed RBCs/plasma, and prep them to get taken care of by a trauma surgeon. I wouldn't necessarily use them as an appeal to authority. People like Dr DeMaio/Dr Fackler/Dr Roberts who have dedicated a substantial amount of time and energy to specifically studying the effects of GSWs on human physiology will be much better informed than your average MD.

And you are well-informed on exactly what kind of traumas are seen here? Impressive.

Bud, I have sat in on Vincent DiMaio's lectures. I knew Marty Fackler personally. I am well aware of GKR's work in the field.

The derp just got too strong here; I'm out.

.

[JHC]

We will never be able to identify or quantify all the variables that might cause an interruption in hostility, but we’ve known for eons that most bad guys stop being bad when they get shot ….. period.

But, what none of the true believers in “ballistic equivalency” has been able to answer to my satisfaction is why the 9mm doesn’t perform as well as the larger calibers in the game fields – CNS and marginal hits notwithstanding.

Most people with any experience shooting stuff comprised of living flesh and bones will tell you the .45 ACP will – all things being equal - outperform the 9mm on any critter weighing over 40 or 50 lbs ..... usually by a noticeable margin.

All things being equal, bigger bullets cause more tissue damage and subsequent bleeding than smaller ones, which causes the animal to expire quicker. That is the physiological reality, but everyone has to decide for themselves if it has any meaningful correlation to a self-defense application.

I would love to see that explored in objective detail (vs anecdotally). I certainly grew up with that impression although Stephen Camp's considerable experience shooting Texas deer with pistol calibers seems to offer a general counterpoint that .45 ACP outperformed 9mm loads on them measurably.

[Nephrology]

And you are well-informed on exactly what kind of traumas are seen here? Impressive.

Bud, I have sat in on Vincent DiMaio's lectures. I knew Marty Fackler personally. I am well aware of GKR's work in the field.

The derp just got too strong here; I'm out.

.

I am not trying to tell you that you are wrong or to attack your credibility. I am also certainly not trying to tell you which caliber is "best" or which to carry. I simply wanted to inform you that it is a mistake to rely on the subjective observations of a single medical doctor in a single emergency department - especially given that emergency physicians do not really have the same intimate understanding of the physiology of trauma as do trauma surgeons (though of course they certainly see quite a bit of it). Of course, I am not familiar with the patient population/volume of the ED of which you speak, but I can provide you with national statistics to back up my claims.

See:

http://www.hcup-us.ahrq.gov/reports/statbriefs/sb156.pdf

Specifically:

http://i.imgur.com/GMdyzdf.jpg

Also note that the paper also states that all of the above injuries combined only account for ~17% of all ED visits. So, taken together, this means that traumatic firearms injuries of any kind only account for, on average, 0.51% of all ED visits nationwide.

For what it is worth, I am receiving my preliminary medical training in the emergency department of a very busy level 1 trauma center in the Denver metro area. By far the majority of our traumas are MVAs. Our ED used to be legendary for the amount of violent traumas it got in the 80-90s (and we do still get them) but they are not nearly as common as the other things listed in the table above.

Again, none of this is to try to suggest you are "wrong" - just want to make sure you are interpreting the information you are receiving in its proper context. As the saying goes, the plural of anecdote is not data.

[breakingtime91]

And you are well-informed on exactly what kind of traumas are seen here? Impressive.

Bud, I have sat in on Vincent DiMaio's lectures. I knew Marty Fackler personally. I am well aware of GKR's work in the field.

The derp just got too strong here; I'm out.

.

Your obviously very invested in your opinion but no one is "derping". This is why these/this conversation can never take place.

[GardoneVT]

Who cares?

Seriously . You've got people dying left and right in this and other countries from rounds of all kinds and sorts.

Arguing about bullet size is like arguing about which number of cylinders in the motor is best for parallel parking in downtown Minneapolis. If the driver isn't skilled enough to parallel park, the engine size is irrelevant.

[Hauptmann]

And you are well-informed on exactly what kind of traumas are seen here? Impressive.

Bud, I have sat in on Vincent DiMaio's lectures. I knew Marty Fackler personally. I am well aware of GKR's work in the field.

The derp just got too strong here; I'm out.

.

DiMaio and Fackler were great on the science side of things. However, when it came to the equipment operation side of it they were not well seasoned. Heck, Fackler thought that LE and military should use bullpup rifles with 24" barrels, because in his mind the science was more important than the end user needs.

The justification for 9mm use by field and user experts is overwhelming. Maybe 10% of them prefer the larger caliber. This demand for 9mm improvements has reached fruition, and the technology will likely only improve for 9mm.

Personally, I think that service calibers will only getting smaller in the future as technology advances. I can see something like the new Bulgarian 7.92x24mm PDW round replacing 9mm some day, provided that bullet technology continues to improve. That, or something else comes along that replaces conventional powder propellant cartridges.

[GardoneVT]

DiMaio and Fackler were great on the science side of things. However, when it came to the equipment operation side of it they were not well seasoned. Heck, Fackler thought that LE and military should use bullpup rifles with 24" barrels, because in his mind the science was more important than the end user needs.

The justification for 9mm use by field and user experts is overwhelming. Maybe 10% of them prefer the larger caliber. This demand for 9mm improvements has reached fruition, and the technology will likely only improve for 9mm.

Personally, I think that service calibers will only getting smaller in the future as technology advances. I can see something like the new Bulgarian 7.92x24mm PDW round replacing 9mm some day, provided that bullet technology continues to improve. That, or something else comes along that replaces conventional powder propellant cartridges.

This post reminds me of the angst surrounding the Beretta M9. What gets lost in all the buzzwords is that the limiting factor on handgun effectiveness is not the round or the gun, but end user training.

All the ballistic science in the world won't help an end user totally unfamiliar with effective operation of the firearm.

[SamAdams]

As a general rule, when hunting, you get to fire one shot at an undisturbed animal, at which point it is often difficult to get another good shot. On a one bullet for one bullet basis, all things considered, the edge is going to go the larger diameter, heavier bullet, and the .45 is certainly larger diameter and heavier than the 9.

The argument for the 9mm has to do with capacity and the relative ease of placing additional shots on a human target that doesn't run like a deer.

So, the .45 should do better than the .45 acp hunting, just as the heavy .45 LC should do better than the .45 acp. I don't think that necessarily makes the .45 LC better than acp on people, and a .45 acp necessarily better than the 9 on people. A related consideration is bullet placement. I started hunting in Africa with a .460 G&A and .470 NE, but migrated to a .416 Rigby as it better allowed me as a hunter to place a bullet, negating the pow of the larger calibers. If I was a PH trying to stop a charge at close range, though, I would be more interested in raw power, since the marksmanship challenge is less.

Hi GJM - I thought this thread might be a good one to ask you this - - Do you happen to know what ammo is carried by AK Troopers ( blues & also the wildlife guys) ? I believe they use Glock 40s.

On the YouTube vids that I saw, they grabbed an 870 with slugs if running into a big bear was a high probability, but it would be interesting to find out what they carry as a general purpose pistol round. Thanx

[GJM]

Hi GJM - I thought this thread might be a good one to ask you this - - Do you happen to know what ammo is carried by AK Troopers ( blues & also the wildlife guys) ? I believe they use Glock 40s.

On the YouTube vids that I saw, they grabbed an 870 with slugs if running into a big bear was a high probability, but it would be interesting to find out what they carry as a general purpose pistol round. Thanx

Every regular and wildlife trooper I have seen, has been carrying a G22, but I am not sure their contract load. I don't have any reason to believe they picked it based on animal performance, but I know someone I can ask. They use the 870 and Brenneke Classic Magum slugs.

[SamAdams]

Every regular and wildlife trooper I have seen, has been carrying a G22, but I am not sure their contract load. I don't have any reason to believe they picked it based on animal performance, but I know someone I can ask. They use the 870 and Brenneke Classic Magum slugs.

Thanks. Given the environment you guys are in, it would be interesting to see what they chose and the reasoning (and maybe any testing) they might have to support their choice.

[JHC]

Thanks. Given the environment you guys are in, it would be interesting to see what they chose and the reasoning (and maybe any testing) they might have to support their choice.

Karnac: "What is a 180 grain bonded JHP, Winchester, Speer or Federal." ;)

[GJM]

Thanks. Given the environment you guys are in, it would be interesting to see what they chose and the reasoning (and maybe any testing) they might have to support their choice.

Have asked a LE friend, but bet it was based on price. :)

[SamAdams]

Have asked a LE friend, but bet it was based on price. :)


lol You're probably right !

[StraitR]

Recent posting on LuckyGunner with a lot of calibers and popular bullets tested from short barreled, typical CCW sized pistols...

http://www.luckygunner.com/labs/self-defense-ammo-ballistic-tests/


I read for hours.

[GJM]

Hi GJM - I thought this thread might be a good one to ask you this - - Do you happen to know what ammo is carried by AK Troopers ( blues & also the wildlife guys) ? I believe they use Glock 40s.

On the YouTube vids that I saw, they grabbed an 870 with slugs if running into a big bear was a high probability, but it would be interesting to find out what they carry as a general purpose pistol round. Thanx

This is the message I got back from LE friend:


George- The Troop are firing the Federal 180 grain HST round. They recently started allowing Troopers to carry the Glock 17 and also use the HST round. Anchorage uses both the Federal HST and the Remington Gold dot rounds. Anchorage will allow officers to carry just about any caliber or pistol an officer wants.

[SamAdams]

This is the message I got back from LE friend:


George- The Troop are firing the Federal 180 grain HST round. They recently started allowing Troopers to carry the Glock 17 and also use the HST round. Anchorage uses both the Federal HST and the Remington Gold dot rounds. Anchorage will allow officers to carry just about any caliber or pistol an officer wants.

Thanks, I appreciate it.

Interesting about Anchorage PD & their generous gun/ammo polices for LEOs

Wonder if your friend was talking about the Rem Golden Saber or the Speer Gold Dot - maybe they use both

[voodoo_man]

Don't know which thread to post this in so picked this one...

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=eba_1451365274


Motorcycle thief get shot in the Spine
The thief tripped the alarm of the motorcycle waking up the owner of the dormitory. So he grabs his .380 Walther PPK and gives one into the thief' spine, paralysed him from the waist down.
Three of his resident scooters have already been stolen this year alone. So he set up CCTV around the parking lot, install alarms, and wait for the thief to visit again. The thief have 5 warrants of grand theft auto and resisting arrest.