Removing Fire Control Hand from Grip

[Chance]

I've heard instructors, such as Paul Howe and Pat Rogers, discuss how you're not supposed to remove your dominant/fire control hand from the grip of a carbine. However, I'm watching Pat McNamara's Carbine TAPS video (which is excellent, by the ways), and he periodically violates this rule (such as, he places his dominant hand around the mag well while running, in order to allow him to have more natural movement with his arms).

So, I think I've missed a fundamental detail somewhere. What are the general rules for keeping your fire control hand on the grip of a carbine, and when is it (generally accepted) okay to remove it?

[breakingtime91]

I've heard instructors, such as Paul Howe and Pat Rogers, discuss how you're not supposed to remove your dominant/fire control hand from the grip of a carbine. However, I'm watching Pat McNamara's Carbine TAPS video (which is excellent, by the ways), and he periodically violates this rule (such as, he places his dominant hand around the mag well while running, in order to allow him to have more natural movement with his arms).

So, I think I've missed a fundamental detail somewhere. What are the general rules for keeping your fire control hand on the grip of a carbine, and when is it (generally accepted) okay to remove it?

I don't believe there are any absolutes. It doesn't seem to slow him down or cause him any grief. I have actually debated giving his running with a carbine technique a try, running with at a cross low ready has always felt weird and high ready, while great for having the carbine in my shooters box/work space feels weird as well.

[Josh Runkle]

I've actually been thinking a lot about this lately. When running a Sig 550 series carbine (550, 551, 552, 553), I have always been turning the gun to the side (ejection port up) and keeping my firing hand, while racking with my non-dominant (left) hand. However, the turning of the gun to an awkward position doesn't mimic a firing position, nor does it mimic my "workspace". I realize that people naturally grip down on things under fear, and so, we use the thinking that I should maintain my grip with my firing hand, as I might do that under stress, however...I'll be gripping the gun with my other hand as well! I've been considering switching to using my firing hand to run the slide, but then there becomes the problem of switching back and forth between hands for things like mag changes.

So, in that sense, it makes more sense to use my non-dominant hand for all manipulations, and there really isn't a reason for my firing hand to leave the grip.

However, I don't get caught up in rules. I'm not even remotely close to a high speed guy. Not even a slow speed one. However, I do allow my firing hand to leave the grip to hold the magwell while I run. In my limited thinking, this leaves my non dominant hand open to do things like push things out of my way or open a door, and I can always drop the gun and let my sling take the weight and draw a secondary.

I say this realizing how silly it sounds...I've developed habits based upon techniques from self discovery that have occurred after considering a scenario from one class or another. The reality is that in real life, I won't have armor or a sling or a secondary firearm attached to my pajamas when things go bump in the night. And I don't use anything like an AK or Sig 550 series for anything other than fun and training.

[Drang]

I've heard instructors, such as Paul Howe and Pat Rogers, discuss how you're not supposed to remove your dominant/fire control hand from the grip of a carbine. However, I'm watching Pat McNamara's Carbine TAPS video (which is excellent, by the ways), and he periodically violates this rule (such as, he places his dominant hand around the mag well while running, in order to allow him to have more natural movement with his arms).

So, I think I've missed a fundamental detail somewhere. What are the general rules for keeping your fire control hand on the grip of a carbine, and when is it (generally accepted) okay to remove it?

YMMV, but...
So, I'm in the prone unsupported position, with a good cheek weld, and I need to reload, so I should use my left hand?
I think not.
Using my right hand will have the minimum impact on my sight picture; my left hand has the fore-end stable, and therefore the buttstock is in the pocket, I don't need to adjust my eye to do this, so...
Like I said, YMMV.

[SpyderMan2k4]

There's always exceptions to every "rule," a lot of which will depend on personal preference and experience. If someone is really speaking to that level of absolutes, they are probably pretty closed minded to the variations in context.

[Surf]

So, I think I've missed a fundamental detail somewhere. What are the general rules for keeping your fire control hand on the grip of a carbine, and when is it (generally accepted) okay to remove it?You are not missing anything when it comes to generally supported techniques. However, keep the following in mind as you progress in your own path of learning.

I often say...

There is a time to shoot,
a time to move,
a time to shoot on the move,
and a time to haul ass.

I would imagine that technique Pat Mac chooses to use is done when hauling ass.

I will also echo that there are skills or fundamentals, or a progression of teaching that should accomplish a baseline standard or core sound fundamentals / skill from which to build upon. I do harp on fire control as a guideline, however we cannot discount the fact that people develop into their own style especially as skill levels increase. At these higher points in skill performance what works for one individual may not work for another person. So a person with greater skill sets may be able to tweak their own techniques for improved performance while losing nothing on the other end.

No one taught Michael Jordan how to do much of what he developed into his own unique style. It may not be classic ABC's of skill learning for lesser basketball players, but no one sure as hell can tell Michael he was doing it wrong. I am no Michael Jordan, but I often tell others that what I may be teaching to students at a certain point in time in their learning progression, may not be what they may actually see me performing under spontaneous circumstances when I am not teaching.

[breakingtime91]

[QUOTE=Surf;363744]You are not missing anything when it comes to generally supported techniques. However, keep the following in mind as you progress in your own path of learning.

I often say...

There is a time to shoot,
a time to move,
a time to shoot on the move,
and a time to haul ass.

I would imagine that technique Pat Mac chooses to use is done when hauling ass.


I think you nailed it. The only time I can imagine using my carbine is either hunting, home defense, or the weird occasion I have it in my vehicle and something happens. The last scenario is probably where I would use this technique but in reality, this will never ever happen. So it'll most likely be used to get impressive times on drills that incorporate movement/fast movement.

[rob_s]

When I took Pat McNamara's class he "taught" that technique (it's not something so complicated that it really needs "teaching" per se) and it absolutely was a "run your ass off" technique.

[Chance]

When I took Pat McNamara's class he "taught" that technique (it's not something so complicated that it really needs "teaching" per se) and it absolutely was a "run your ass off" technique.

Correct. I apologize for not clarifying earlier. Pat's exact words from the video:


When it's time to move, it's all about moving. The objective when moving from point A to point B, is to get to point B. Mobility equals survivability. It's hard to shoot a moving target. So run your fucking ass off.

The text doesn't really convey Pat's delivery, unless you imagine this being said to you by a pissed off badger.

[Surf]

I am not sure of the video, situation or how Pat Mac was performing this, but there are times when I will "haul ass" while gripping near / around the magwell. Basically the rifle is in a flattened position, stock off shoulder magwell facing outbound, sometimes described as Sul with the rifle. I keep it high and tight gripping around the front of the magwell and magazine and not dangling at arms length as I "haul ass", but this is not the only method that I may use. I have no pictures or video of this. A couple other methods do include a muzzle down SUL like position, or a high port movement where I do stay on fire control. It is all situation dependent and I generally don't think about it, it just happens.