RDS on a SemiAuto

[LittleLebowski]

I think red dot sights are going to obviate XS sights and soon.



[Mod Note from JV]
This is a thread split from the XS Sight thread:
http://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?1756-XS-Big-dot-sights
[/Mod Note]

[JConn]

I think red dot sights are going to obviate XS sights and soon.

This, you have to wonder if the growth of red dots on handguns will be similar to the way they have become almost standard equipment on combat rifles.

[TCinVA]

This, you have to wonder if the growth of red dots on handguns will be similar to the way they have become almost standard equipment on combat rifles.

I have my doubts. The majority of the gun-buying public is...unsophisticated...at best. I cannot count the number of people I know of who have a $4,000.00 carbine complete with some sort of red dot sighting system that will survive everything short of an EMP but who cannot be bothered to put so much as a laser on their daily carry gun, a Ruger LCP, because pistols aren't supposed to be precision weapons. When you ask why this is, you'll inevitably be told that a pistol is solely for fighting your way back to a rifle.

When you see that tidbit come up in the wild it is nature's warning sign that the conversation is irretrievably stupid (as are, probably, at least 1/3 of the participants) and you should click the X button on your browser before a blood vessel in your brain ruptures, leaving you to die quietly as blood runs out of your ears.

[rsa-otc]

This, you have to wonder if the growth of red dots on handguns will be similar to the way they have become almost standard equipment on combat rifles.

I think price is going to drive this. People who can afford a $1000 plus carbine can afford to spend money on a QUALITY red dot system, add that to the fact all they have to do is bolt it to their rail. With pistols right now you have to spend money not only for the red dot but also milling the slide and co-witness sights. For many this combination is still to pricey.

Also keep in mind that if the red dot doesn't work out for you on your carbine all you have to do is unbolt it, no harm no foul. With a pistol you now have a slide that has been altered and you to deal with that.

[JConn]

I think price is going to drive this. People who can afford a $1000 plus carbine can afford to spend money on a QUALITY red dot system, add that to the fact all they have to do is bolt it to their rail. With pistols right now you have to spend money not only for the red dot but also milling the slide and co-witness sights. For many this combination is still to pricey.

Also keep in mind that if the red dot doesn't work out for you on your carbine all you have to do is unbolt it, no harm no foul. With a pistol you now have a slide that has been altered and you to deal with that.

It is my understanding that initially red dots for rifles were expensive to the point of not being feasible for most people as well. Also, with the production of weapons like the fnp tactical which are pre milled for a red dot, the gunsmithing problem is solved. Also, there are plenty of people out there who spend a thousand dollars (at least) on handguns (hk, custom 1911, more I'm not mentioning), so the same logic could at some point in the future be applied.

TC, as the great philosopher Ron White once said, "you can't fix stupid." Eventually, if enough people who know what they are doing switch over to a system, every mall ninja at the fair will want one. This will then lead to reduced costs, etc. And in turn will drive the market to refine the technology and create more options.

Sorry if this is too much topic drift.

[LittleLebowski]

I'd rather see folks with poor vision running a red dot if finances permit. Whether we like it or not, red dots are coming to pistols.

[JHC]

I'd rather see folks with poor vision running a red dot if finances permit. Whether we like it or not, red dots are coming to pistols.

Well they did long ago for comp and have attracted a following for tactical and defensive use more recently. But sooo many who have hit the RDS hard on their carry guns candidly acknowledge the challenge of speed on close range speed drills that I'm pretty sure this approach will not go maintream anytime soon considering the cost. Some leap in RDS sight will be needed for mainstream.

We've heard that some serious military pistoleros are running RDS. I seriously wonder if they might be running T1's as that RDS is much easier to acquire the dot in my limited handling of them on a Glock.

[LittleLebowski]

I predict that it will absolutely go mainstream as costs inevitably go down and the technology matures. I know of and acknowledge the deficiencies you speak of, JHC and I have no plans to switch away from irons anytime soon but red dots are where we are headed. Less training for the average shooter and absolutely better for bad eyes. 5-10 years.

[JV_]

Caveat: I don't have a lot of RDS experience, but from my brief encounter, here is my take:

Less training for the average shooterI wouldn't say it's less, but I might agree with different.

By different, I'm referring to things like the high ready. With the muzzle elevated, as you press out to the target, the dot doesn't become visible until you're on target. With irons, I have more visual indications that I'm getting closer to good sight alignment and can "drive the sights" more effectively. Essentially, I had to use my irons to get my alignment in to the general area ... then the dot becomes visible. A horizontal muzzle pressout would be a lot more effective in this instance.

You also have to manage recoil & muzzle rise better, if you don't - the dot will disappear and you fight with losing and reacquiring during each shot.

[ToddG]

I think MRDS on pistols is a near-certainty. While it won't deliver the same performance for the top 5%, it will greatly speed up the fundamental task of hitting a target for a huge percentage of the gun-carrying population. Then you'll see techniques change to maximize the benefits and compensate for the deficiencies.

The technology will have to change substantially before the field-of-view issue goes away. Until that happens, those "top 5%" folks will always be faster with irons.

[LittleLebowski]

My point about the average shooter using the RDS on a pistol is backed by my beliefs that the RDS is easier to "plink" with and also has a shiny fancy gear factor. For this forum's shooters, yes the dot will take a bit of training with to voercome find the dot during movement, recoil, initial draw, etc. However, that isn't the majority of the American shooting world. Remember, I said "average shooter," not the guy working on his pressout and splits.

[LittleLebowski]

I think MRDS on pistols is a near-certainty. While it won't deliver the same performance for the top 5%, it will greatly speed up the fundamental task of hitting a target for a huge percentage of the gun-carrying population. Then you'll see techniques change to maximize the benefits and compensate for the deficiencies.

The technology will have to change substantially before the field-of-view issue goes away. Until that happens, those "top 5%" folks will always be faster with irons.

Todd already said it better than I just attempted to.

[JV_]

I don't think I disagree with your post (#11), you and I just differ on the definition of a "shooter".

[LittleLebowski]

I don't think I disagree with your post (#11), you and I just differ on the definition of a "shooter".

I think I know where you're going with this.... Something like the difference between a gun owner and a gun shooter, perhaps?

[JV_]

I wonder if a MRDS was designed such that when the dot is "out of the window" it would still illuminate a spot on the edge of the window/tube such that you could easily identify at least what direction the dot is in and if that would make it easier to track/find the dot on presentation and during recoil. It'd be sort of like seeing the orange paint on my front sight even when it isn't in the rear sight notch.

That is what I was thinking, only I was thinking of a "bar" on the edge of the RDS.

[JV_]

I'll be honest, the cheap side of me is what's holding me back. I also feel like I'm too early to the game, specifically wrt the off sight dot issue.

I'd hate to get a slide milled for an RMR, then have a much better one come out next year - with a different footprint.

[ToddG]

I wonder if...

Holy crap. I've heard that before... and now we have the Gadget.

MRDS industry, prepare to be boarded.

[NickA]

Holy crap. I've heard that before... and now we have the Gadget.

MRDS industry, prepare to be boarded.

Somebody already said it, but you guys really need more minions. And possibly a secret lair.

Sent from my PC36100 using Tapatalk

[ToddG]

Somebody already said it, but you guys really need more minions. And possibly a secret lair.

http://bbsimg.ngfiles.com/1/22729000/ngbbs4db7be5156dd3.jpg

Though "Pinky" isn't exactly the nickname I'd always hoped for...

[JHC]

I predict that it will absolutely go mainstream as costs inevitably go down and the technology matures. I know of and acknowledge the deficiencies you speak of, JHC and I have no plans to switch away from irons anytime soon but red dots are where we are headed. Less training for the average shooter and absolutely better for bad eyes. 5-10 years.

Yep, I have to concede that happy eventuality. And sooner or later I expect to need them. As Todd notes, the mini RDS needs another jump in tech. Ideally to use the existing slides rear dovetail and faster to acquire the dot witout 5K rds of retraining the presentation. That is a killer IMO.

[Failure2Stop]

I wonder if a MRDS was designed such that when the dot is "out of the window" it would still illuminate a spot on the edge of the window/tube such that you could easily identify at least what direction the dot is in and if that would make it easier to track/find the dot on presentation and during recoil.

That would make me seriously consider the training cost of swapping.
At this point in my life (and technology), it just isn't worth it.
Not a permanent situation, just a current reality.

[orionz06]

I wonder if a MRDS was designed such that when the dot is "out of the window" it would still illuminate a spot on the edge of the window/tube such that you could easily identify at least what direction the dot is in and if that would make it easier to track/find the dot on presentation and during recoil. It'd be sort of like seeing the orange paint on my front sight even when it isn't in the rear sight notch.

I think that might be incredibly doable.

[willowofwisp]

I have been running a MRS for over 6 months now and 4000 rounds +, and while there are some deficiencies I think overall it works much better for ME compared to irons, I have ran the MRDS while shoting in the cold, heat, rain, snow, and at dark...and in all those conditions it has worked flawless. I don't necessarily find the field of view to be an issue, you can always use the MRDS as a large ghost ring which work inside of 10 yards in most cases.It does take some getting used to, but if your willing to put in the work in both live and dry fire it can be an awesome platform, I would say I am at least 20% faster at speed when shooting past 15 yards versus irons, while shooting inside of 10 yards I am probably equal with both.
I think one of the biggest lessons that helped me when shooting a MRDS was to not look for the dot, to a proper press out and look through the target and your dot would be there, at least in my case. If you don't like the MRDS you can remove the sight and a few companies make a metal plate you can screw over where the MRDS was mounted, and if you had BUIS installed you'll have a fully functional gun as before.

[peterb]

As my eyes get older my focal range seems to be narrowing, and the idea becomes more interesting.

Some of the slide-mount installations look very clean and useable, as opposed to monstrosities like this: http://pistol-training.com/archives/5340

[DocGKR]

As noted previously (http://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?1059-Use-of-RDS-on-service-pistols), we have been testing RDS equipped service pistols for the past 20 months or so. I became confident enough in the utility and efficacy of RDS equipped service pistols that I fully transitioned to carrying G19/G17 and M&P45's equipped by Mark Housel (http://www.landmprecisiongunworks.com/index.php) with Trijicon RMR02's since the beginning of 2011. Cost is not a profound barrier, as the price of a Glock or M&P with an RMR is not much more than a HK and is quite a bit less than a good quality custom or even semi-custom 1911. I have not yet had to change a battery on any of the RMR's--some now approaching 20 months of use. In addition to regular training, during this year I have shot in ToddG's March Sacramento class (http://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?405-AAR-Photo-Thread-for-TLG-Get-SOM-Speed-Kills-Sacramento-CA-March-12-13), Pat McNamara's class this Summer at Chabot (http://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?1254-Pat-McNamara-TAPS-Pistol-6-30-amp-7-1-in-Castro-Valley-CA), as well as the recent Kyle Defoor class (http://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?1729-AAR-Kyle-Defoor-2-Day-Advanced-Handgun-Sept.-14-15-2011-Castro-Valley-CA). Even though I am still a bit slower with an RDS equipped pistol, at no time did it leave me at the back of the pack--in fact I was among the top shooters for many of the drills in the classes. Yesterday I shot a witnessed 476 on the 500 pt Aggregate drill using the same G19rtf2 equipped with RMR02 as I used in the Defoor class:

http://www.10-8forums.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php?ubb=download&Number=7658&filename=G19%20RTF%20RMR.jpg

With the onset of middle age presbyopia and following the damage to my vision from my unfortunate skull fracture two yrs ago, this is NOT something that I could still accomplish with iron sights--yet it is a relatively easy task with an RDS equipped pistol. So for me, the RDS is not just a good idea, it is the only way I am able to keep shooting pistols with any degree of aplomb.

G19 mag change from concealment at Defoor course:
http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6160/6170873511_1293a133fe_z.jpg

[ToddG]

So for me, the RDS is not just a good idea, it is the only way I am able to keep shooting pistols with any degree of aplomb.

And that is what it really boils down to. The people who say "everyone should use MRDS" and the people who say "no one should use MRDS" are equally stupid. For some people -- whether it's skill, vision, or simply result priorities -- it works better; for some, it doesn't.

[fuse]

Excellent discussion gentlemen, as is tradition.

I have read a couple serious competition shooters express this online- "if you want to drastically improve your iron sight shooting, shoot an optic for a year."

I believe the theory is that learning to shoot a MRDS radically improves gun index (as a new shooter will at first constantly have the "dude, where's my dot" problem.)

Also, it's much easier to track a bright dot lifting than a front sight lifting, and when transitioning back to irons the MRDS proves to be a valuable introduction to true sight tracking.

I have never shot a MRDS equipped service pistol, and the above statements are opinions that are not my own.

Like many I am very intrigued with the ongoing development of MRDS hardware and mounting methods for service pistols.

However I am not aware of too many others who want to experiment with MRDS on pistols to hopefully improve their iron sight shooting.

Thoughts?

[DocGKR]

I find tracking a brightly colored front sight or sharp black front sight in bright sunlight to be easier than tracking a red dot. If you can track a red dot, you can EASILY track an iron front sight.

[ToddG]

Doc is absolutely correct. Well duh, he's got more MRDS pistol experience than just about anyone.

Having said that, when IPSC Open guys are talking about running a dot, they're also talking about running a comp'd gun with a frame mounted non-reciprocating dot. Tracking that is easy. Tracking a dot on a reciprocating (slide mounted) MRDS is much harder. There's a guy in class this weekend here in Indiana with one and he's doing well, no question. But I shot his gun a bit and there's just no comparison: the whole "visual control of the gun" thing gets way, way harder with a MRDS.

To his credit, the student has put a lot of thought and practice into his setup. He's got the tall iron back up sights that he uses for tracking and index reference and he's clearly making it work.

[vcdgrips]

Has anybody shot expert on thr FAST with a dot yet?

How many have shot advanced with it as well?

Just curious

[ToddG]

Has anybody shot expert on thr FAST with a dot yet?

No, but so few people have shot Expert to begin with that it's a bit unfair as a measuring stick.


How many have shot advanced with it as well?

I don't think we shot the FAST on the day DocGKR was in class earlier this year, but I'm sure he could tell you whether it's something he's done before. I've only had two other students come through running MRDS and neither of them made Advanced.

[JV_]

I'm very close to building one, but I'm a little concerned with the RDS printing while AIWB'ing.

[ToddG]

They guy in class this weekend with the MRDS is running aiwb and it conceals well on him. He has a basic physique very similar to yours, JV.

[willowofwisp]

While I have not attended an AFHF class yet, I do normally run a few FAST drills at my weekly practice running my RMR, starting off in April my FAST score with the RMR was normally in the 8.5 second range, with me loosing a lot of time on the head shot and partly my reload, almost 6 months later and my best time so far is 7.02 with my average being 7.5. What really slows me down is my reload though, but I am sure more talented individuals could easily score under 7.

JV, I run my RMR'd 19 at roughly the 2:00 position in a Raven phantom MD cut and the dot does not print, my normal dress is either an untucked polo or a plain columbia/rei t shirt.

[JV_]

They guy in class this weekend with the MRDS is running aiwb and it conceals well on him. He has a basic physique very similar to yours, JV.Interesting, thanks. What model gun?

[ToddG]

G19 with G17 mags.

I have a feeling that after today's shooting on the move class he'll be giving it up in favor of real sights. It proved particularly deficient for SOM.

[JV_]

It proved particularly deficient for SOM.I'm torn. Part of me reads this as a challenge, the other half (the cheaper side of me), says I shouldn't waste the $$.

[LittleLebowski]

I'm torn. Part of me reads this as a challenge, the other half (the cheaper side of me), says I shouldn't waste the $$.

I'd wait until the next generation of technology.

[Kyle Reese]

I'd wait until the next generation of technology.

My thoughts exactly.

[fuse]

We need a tube sight that's a little smaller than a T1 and more easily mounted to a flat surface.

[YVK]

Have had RDS setup for over a year now and barely used it. The hardest part for me to understand how far I can progress with irons. Am I kidding myself with my goals? Are they reasonable for my level of ability? Is there anything else that needs to be learned before getting on the dot? Performance tracking doesn't help as much as one would think. At intermediate and above, the curve of improvement isn't as steep as early on, and it is hard for one to know when there isn't growth any more, and switch to something else. Doc's example is different since there is a identifiable cause-effect link between vision decline and shooting performance.

[joshs]

We need a tube sight that's a little smaller than a T1 and more easily mounted to a flat surface.

I don't think that a sight with a small viewing window is the way to go on a handgun. There is a reason that the most popular sight in Open is a C-MORE.


Have had RDS setup for over a year now and barely used it. The hardest part for me to understand how far I can progress with irons. Am I kidding myself with my goals? Are they reasonable for my level of ability? Is there anything else that needs to be learned before getting on the dot? Performance tracking doesn't help as much as one would think. At intermediate and above, the curve of improvement isn't as steep as early on, and it is hard for one to know when there isn't growth any more, and switch to something else. Doc's example is different since there is a identifiable cause-effect link between vision decline and shooting performance.

At higher levels of shooting I think that improvements are made more in steps than in an ever increasing curve. You sound like you are on a plateau right now and you need to make your way up to the next step. If you don't feel like you are getting a lot out of you current training regimen, then try something else. When I hit plateaus in pistol shooting, I usually try to learn a new shooting discipline.

[TAZ]

We need a tube sight that's a little smaller than a T1 and more easily mounted to a flat surface.

I'm faaaaaar from an expert on the MRDS concept, but IMO a small T1-esque sight on a handgun would not he the ticket. In my limited use of the T1 it feels like looking through a straw. At handgun ranges the field of view would be a huge detriment. IMO an improvement in window technology like Mr. Scott's transparent aluminum that eliminates the bezels around the viewer without sacrificing durability would be ideal.

Right now I'm in Doc's bait so to speak wrt eyes going down hill. I'm finding that quickly focusing on the front sight is more and more difficult. I can choose to clearly see my target for ID but then it takes time for the ole eyes to switch to the front post; or I can have quick focus on the sight but not see distance clearly. Thisis the primary reason why tue MRDS is looking like a possibility.

[Mark Housel]

I think price is going to drive this. People who can afford a $1000 plus carbine can afford to spend money on a QUALITY red dot system, add that to the fact all they have to do is bolt it to their rail. With pistols right now you have to spend money not only for the red dot but also milling the slide and co-witness sights. For many this combination is still to pricey.

Also keep in mind that if the red dot doesn't work out for you on your carbine all you have to do is unbolt it, no harm no foul. With a pistol you now have a slide that has been altered and you to deal with that.

The prices for sights will eventually come down. The installation market is certainly getting more competitive and not as 'pricey' at some places as others.

A couple people offer a solution for removing the RMR or other RDS . These involve a cover plate that fills in the milled area.

A replacement slide is an alternative also, but certainly a more costly one.

[Doug]

A replacement slide is an alternative also, but certainly a more costly one.

Does anyone have information, not anecdotal round counts, about the quality of the pre-milled slides at One Source Tactical?

http://warriortalknews.typepad.com/.a/6a0133ec985af6970b0153919a6f2c970b-pi

What machine shop is producing them?

How long has the shop been in the gun parts business, etc...?

Is the quality of the metal the same as the OEM?

This is on their website:

"Made of 17-4 stainless steel, at a thorough hardness of RC 46, to exacting tolerances by aerospace technicians, to exceed the match quality requirements of TSD Combat Systems, these upper end units exceed the quality, reliability, and accuracy of any after-market components to the extreme, and surpass the hardness and durability of OEM units, with an impeccable Cerakote finish."


Their price is $360 for the slide less RMR and without the cerakote. It is $240 to have them mill your own slide.

For $120 difference, I would have a spare slide so it is why my question on the quality.

As an analogy, I don't want to buy a Stag AR15 upper when I should have modified my Colt AR.

I would like to buy the slide but am hesitant.

Thank you.


PS I am definitely NOT a fan of their large lettering on the side but they seem to be the only game in town. Can't fault them for branding.... just wish it was more subdued.

[Odin Bravo One]

Took the plunge and decided to outfit a G34 with a Leupold DeltaPoint. I decided a complete gun made more sense for me than a new slide, or working with the existing slide, so I bought a used G34. It will be awhile before I actually touch it and shoot it due to work requirements, but we shall see. Right now it is designated as a range gun for shits and grins, nothing more. We'll see how it performs, how I perform with it, and if it will hold up to the abuse my poor guns are subjected to.

[Joe Mamma]

OK, I'll take the minority view here. I think there is no way RDS will catch on anytime soon (with the next 3-5 years) with "mainstream" handgun shooters.

I could see RDS catching on with military, law enforcement, competition, and serious recreational handgun shooters. But I don't think the majority of mainstram shooters are going to want to deal with the bulk, battery issues, mounting, reliability problems, complexity, etc.

I also do not think a comparison between RDS on carbines and handguns is fair. Those guns, and the people who shoot them, are different.

I think laser sights will catch on before RDS (for most handgun shooters).

Joe Mamma

[Mark Housel]

mine in bold


Does anyone have information, not anecdotal round counts, about the quality of the pre-milled slides at One Source Tactical?

http://warriortalknews.typepad.com/.a/6a0133ec985af6970b0153919a6f2c970b-pi

What machine shop is producing them?
How long has the shop been in the gun parts business, etc...?
Is the quality of the metal the same as the OEM?

Having handled quite a number of these for Cerakoting and sight installation before I was tossed under the bus I can say that these are a high quality product. I don't know the name of the place here in Prescott as Gabe kept that under wraps, but it's one of a few. Whoever it is is doing very nice work.

This is on their website:

"Made of 17-4 stainless steel, at a thorough hardness of RC 46, to exacting tolerances by aerospace technicians, to exceed the match quality requirements of TSD Combat Systems, these upper end units exceed the quality, reliability, and accuracy of any after-market components to the extreme, and surpass the hardness and durability of OEM units, with an impeccable Cerakote finish."

Thank you Gabe!

Their price is $360 for the slide less RMR and without the cerakote. It is $240 to have them mill your own slide.

Gabe's endless references to the hordes of "technicians" not withstanding. I was the person who up until the new slides were introduced did all slide work for TSD. This is the reason they no longer do M&P's and XD's.
It's almost certain that they are simply taking Glock slides back to the same CNC house that makes the new slides. It makes perfect sense. So the profit margin is something to envy.

For $120 difference, I would have a spare slide so it is why my question on the quality.
As an analogy, I don't want to buy a Stag AR15 upper when I should have modified my Colt AR.
I would like to buy the slide but am hesitant.

Thank you.


PS I am definitely NOT a fan of their large lettering on the side but they seem to be the only game in town. Can't fault them for branding.... just wish it was more subdued.

[ToddG]

There is a lot more to making a slide than sight cuts and finish options. I guarantee you, Glock did not provide the technical drawings so any aftermarket slide was reverse engineered. That means things like tolerances, etc., are guessed at. That may be fine for a range toy or possibly even a game gun, but you wouldn't catch me running one on something I intended to stake my (and my family's) life on.

[Mark Housel]

There is a lot more to making a slide than sight cuts and finish options. I guarantee you, Glock did not provide the technical drawings so any aftermarket slide was reverse engineered. That means things like tolerances, etc., are guessed at. That may be fine for a range toy or possibly even a game gun, but you wouldn't catch me running one on something I intended to stake my (and my family's) life on.

Todd,

Reverse engineered, Absolutely. Every Lone Wolf, Caspian, etc. were no doubt done the same way.

Tolerances 'guessed' at. I think that you probably mean dimensions.
Nominal dimensions would certainly have to come from measuring a sample of OEM slides and determining what the dimension should be. I'm sure that they also measured the internal components and their relationship to the slide in establishing dimensions.

I "reverse engineered" a Ruger 10-22 action (http://www.flickr.com/photos/17795349@N08/sets/72157625028583215/)in the same way and built it from a bar of cold rolled in school. I can say with certainty that my receiver was held to much closer tolerances than the "stone in a soup can" cast Ruger receiver. The entire project was centered on a blueprinted factory Ruger bolt.

Tolerances (dimension +- some amount) can be held nearly arbitrarily close depending on the price willing to be paid. Modern CNC manufacturing is just so damn good these days it amazes me. It does depend on operator skill and having good, well maintained equipment and tooling.

That said, I have dealt with boat loads of LW aftermarket slides and seen how their tolerances vary in ways that actually affect assembly, operation, etc.

I never found anything like that on these slides. Whatever the dimension chosen, they are holding them to very tight tolerances.
Of course the loss of quality control by LW, and absolute lack of customer service drove the manufacturing of these slides.

I have seen nothing that would lead me to believe that any aftermarket slide, on a Glock frame, that proves to be reliable by the same methods that any carry gun/ammo should be verified, is not completely service worthy.

Not that I'd remotely consider buying one of his slides in my lifetime either.

Mark

[ToddG]

Reverse engineered, Absolutely. Every Lone Wolf, Caspian, etc. were no doubt done the same way.

And I wouldn't rely on one of those, either.


Tolerances 'guessed' at. I think that you probably mean dimensions.

No, I meant tolerances.

Company-X can make a Glock slide, but they're not making the striker and firing pin block and barrel and other parts it needs to interface with. Unlike Glock, Company-X doesn't know how/when those things change. Take the Grip Force Adapter as an example... there is a range of Glocks that it won't work on due to a tolerance stacking issue.

So while Company-X may be able to control the dimensions of its slide to the billionth of an inch, that's still relying on them to have calculated for the tolerances necessary to work with the range of Glock parts. I'm skeptical that they can do so with the same level of certainty as the original manufacturer, and thus I wouldn't opt to use their slide.

[Doug]

There is a lot more to making a slide than sight cuts and finish options. I guarantee you, Glock did not provide the technical drawings so any aftermarket slide was reverse engineered. That means things like tolerances, etc., are guessed at. That may be fine for a range toy or possibly even a game gun, but you wouldn't catch me running one on something I intended to stake my (and my family's) life on.

Thank you. That was my gut engineering feeling but I do appreciate Mark's comments. With AR's, everything with the specs appears to be out there but companies don't build to the original spec.

I wish Glock sold slides like S&W does for their M&P semi-autos.

I am sure Glock did not intend for metal to be removed on their slide either. The only pistol I know that come direct from the Manufacturer with a co-witness set up is the FN-45.

[Doug]

For those interested, I had found this video of someone who milled their Glock 19 slide for an RMR and explains the dimensioning he encountered.

I would never recommend doing this work yourself and would leave to a gunsmith who do these on a regular basis.

As an engineer, it is interesting watching him walk through his thought process. Some of the metal widths left seem so small I can't help to think about the slide integrity. People are using RDS on pistols, I haven't heard any yet failing but could happen.

Engineering gives you a cautious perspective.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OUlCHn5oX-A&feature=youtube_gdata_player

[Mark Housel]

Doug,

I saw that posted on another forum. While I did all the measurement work up front with a surface plate, gauge pins, height gauges, calipers, depth gauges, etc. before I ever made a chip, the numbers come out fairly close. His thought process was correct.

I do the front curve a bit differently though.

The stressed parts of the slide are unaffected by the machine work to mount the RDS so I don't really worry about that. You could, of course, mill too far back and end up compromising the dovetail, but his numbers are appropriate in that regard.

Mark



For those interested, I had found this video of someone who milled their Glock 19 slide for an RMR and explains the dimensioning he encountered.

I would never recommend doing this work yourself and would leave to a gunsmith who do these on a regular basis.

As an engineer, it is interesting watching him walk through his thought process. Some of the metal widths left seem so small I can't help to think about the slide integrity. People are using RDS on pistols, I haven't heard any yet failing but could happen.

Engineering gives you a cautious perspective.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OUlCHn5oX-A&feature=youtube_gdata_player

[ToddG]

For the record, the concerns I mentioned were in relation to manufacturing a complete non-OEM slide from scratch without the benefit of OEM technical drawings. While I'd prefer to see documentation of high round count testing before making a modification to a genuine Glock (or M&P, or whatever) slide, enough people have been using slides modified in this way that there does not appear to be any kind of catastrophic weakening of the slide.

[Doug]

Thank you to both Todd and Mark for your responses. It was very illuminating to hear two such as yourselves comment on detail regarding the slide.

Right now I have put a Burris Fastfire on my g19 just to test out for me. My next step will be to get my existing slide milled or buy another pistol in the same variety to have dedicated to the RDS concept with a Trijicon.

I'll will move the Burris sight to my .22 Glock kit to get more trigger time to shoot with the dot. I would never trust the Burris with my life.

As a side note, having the RDS on my pistol makes me want to dry fire more! I don't know whether it tis the instant feedback or less fatiguing on my 40 plus year old eyes.

If I purchase a SIRT training pistol, the Burris may find a home on it for practice sessions. It would be interesting to see the red dot of the RDS superimposed over the green laser indicator of the SIRT pistol as a feedback tool?

[theblacknight]

Trij has s dovetail mounts for the RMR that fit M&Ps and Glocks. Just knock out the rear sight and install the mount. Seems like a good way to test before doing anything invasive to your slide.

[Odin Bravo One]

Trij has s dovetail mounts for the RMR that fit M&Ps and Glocks. Just knock out the rear sight and install the mount. Seems like a good way to test before doing anything invasive to your slide.

That particular method of mounting is sub-par. This is why the serious shooters who rely on a pistol mounted MRDS for fighting have them mounted directly to the slide. If it is for toying or gaming, your gun, do what you wish. But with the optic mounted that high off the slide, even suppressor height sights will not allow you to have a back up sighting system in the event the optic fails. If there are no back up iron sights installed, it is either a game gun, or there is too much reliance on technology. Either of which is a poor choice in a worst case scenario lethal force encounter.

Then again, those are just my opinions, and worth exactly what you paid for them.

[DocGKR]

As noted, we started out using the dovetail mounts, but quickly found they place the RDS too high and do not truly represent the effects of an RDS properly milled into the slide.

[Doug]

Trij has s dovetail mounts for the RMR that fit M&Ps and Glocks. Just knock out the rear sight and install the mount. Seems like a good way to test before doing anything invasive to your slide.

It is good as a test, but I will tell you I immediately saw that with it not milled and a co witness front sight, you can easily lose the dot. Just after some dry fires it became readily apparent.

I really understand now why Doc's and other advice to have back up sights with the slide milled on a fighting gun.

[LSHD]

DocGKR,

Thank you for sharing the photos of your RDS Glocks. Did you opt for a slide refinish with your RMR installation, or did you simply apply a rust preventative finish to the milled area?

[GJM]

DocGKR, I see you have your G19 set-up with the rear sight behind the RMR? Bill Rogers, as I recall, told me he has a preference for the optic most rearward, and is takes away the rear sight from your view of the dot, it gets the optic further away from the ejection port , and is easier for holsters. Bowie obviously prefers optic rear, and Mark H says he will do either.

Can you elaborate on your preferred position for the RMR now that you have been running them for a while?

[DocGKR]

I believe it is critical for a duty/CCW pistol to have back-up aiming capabililty. Particularly with BIS, I never have to worry about finding the red dot, even in awkward shooting positions—just line up the iron sights as normal and the red dot is there. When first learning to use the RDS, I strongly preferred the rear BIS in behind the RDS (ie. RDS between the rear BIS and ejection port) as I was able to quickly pick up the irons in the usual manner and then the red dot was exactly where it needed to be, so there was no "hunting" to find the missing dot. In my hands, I discovered that painting the front sight a bright yellow or lime green aids in quickly finding the front sight and rapidly acquiring the dot. As I have gained experience and repetitions in presenting the RDS equipped pistol, finding the dot is much less of an issue and BIS location becomes a relatively moot point. Placing the RDS at the rear edge of the slide with the rear BIS in front of it (ie. BIS between the RDS and ejection port) has its own merits--the view of the RDS is uncluttered, access to rear controls is enabled (especially important on the Leupold Deltapoint and ITI MRDS), holster selection is aided and less holster modifications are necessary, and the front edge of the optic is slightly protected by the BIS. Essentially BIS placement is ultimately irrelevant, just be sure to have some sort of back-up aiming capability, be it BIS or a laser.

Some of my slides were re-finished, some were not. It is probably a good idea to do so, but spray paint also works...

[Default.mp3]

Essentially BIS placement is ultimately irrelevant, just be sure to have some sort of back-up aiming capability, be it BIS or a laser.

Would you say a red laser is sufficient as a back-up sighting tool, given that they are generally rather hard to spot outside during daylight? The only green laser I'm aware of are the Viridians, and I haven't heard of anybody using them extensively and reviewing them, so I'm leery of replacing my X400 with one in the unlikely event I decide to go RDS on my P30LS, since it would appear that no one can mill a P30 slide.

[JRL]

How difficult would it be to mill the base of a RDS, or make a new base, so that it fit into the rear dovetail of a given pistol? Seems like there might soon be a market for something like that, with an integrated BUIS. Perhaps the average dovetail isn't a stable enough cut for mounting something that large?

Edit: Didn't see someone mentioned they have dovetail mounts, without BUIS.

[GJM]

I believe it is critical for a duty/CCW pistol to have back-up aiming capabililty. Particularly with BIS, I never have to worry about finding the red dot, even in awkward shooting positions—just line up the iron sights as normal and the red dot is there. When first learning to use the RDS, I strongly preferred the rear BIS in behind the RDS (ie. RDS between the rear BIS and ejection port) as I was able to quickly pick up the irons in the usual manner and then the red dot was exactly where it needed to be, so there was no "hunting" to find the missing dot. In my hands, I discovered that painting the front sight a bright yellow or lime green aids in quickly finding the front sight and rapidly acquiring the dot. As I have gained experience and repetitions in presenting the RDS equipped pistol, finding the dot is much less of an issue and BIS location becomes a relatively moot point. Placing the RDS at the rear edge of the slide with the rear BIS in front of it (ie. BIS between the RDS and ejection port) has its own merits--the view of the RDS is uncluttered, access to rear controls is enabled (especially important on the Leupold Deltapoint and ITI MRDS), holster selection is aided and less holster modifications are necessary, and the front edge of the optic is slightly protected by the BIS. Essentially BIS placement is ultimately irrelevant, just be sure to have some sort of back-up aiming capability, be it BIS or a laser.

Some of my slides were re-finished, some were not. It is probably a good idea to do so, but spray paint also works...

Thank you, will proceed with suppressor sight rear located in front of RMR. Sending G17 slide to Mark H and M&P 9 slide to David B.

[Mark Housel]

mine in bold


How difficult would it be to mill the base of a RDS, or make a new base, so that it fit into the rear dovetail of a given pistol?

Most RDS have a dovetail mounting plate offered. None with a BUIS option that I'm aware of. The issues are one of height and the loss of the rear BUIS since the dovetail now holds the adapter plate.
Modifying the RDS itself is not really an option since there are "works" in there.

Seems like there might soon be a market for something like that, with an integrated BUIS. Perhaps the average dovetail isn't a stable enough cut for mounting something that large?

Adding the BUIS dovetail to the mount is certainly possible. The factory dovetail is plenty robust to handle such a mounting arrangement.
The issue again is height. While the Rear BUIS is raised up, the Front sight would then have to be so tall as to be unwieldy.

Edit: Didn't see someone mentioned they have dovetail mounts, without BUIS.

[GJM]

I sent Mark a G17 slide and RMR on Saturday, he received it yesterday, finished it today, and "apologized" for it not going out until tomorrow's mail. Incredible turn around time!

[YVK]

I am glad you're getting this since I know you'll keep performance track. There are very few guys who have "before-after" data, and I've not seen any concurrent data, i.e. "today my iron's score is this while my dot score is that".
RDS was supposed to be my 2012 project, until I decided to do the P30. It is funny how human psychology works: I didn't expect a decline in performance with a dot, and when I saw it, it turned me off. I didn't expect a decline a performance with P30, and when I saw it, it became a stimulus and a challenge.

Anyway, and for what it's worth, here is my measly comparative data, in case you found it useful for your own performance tracking:
- my first shot at 3x5 at 7 yards is 0.2-0.3 sec slower with a dot, regardless of starting position. The difference diminishes with repetition but goes back to baseline if I change position of 3x5. Pressout seems to work worse for me than "present-pause-press".
- my 25 yard groups are roughly 40% smaller with the dot. They are actually impressively small with a dot.

[JHC]

- my 25 yard groups are roughly 40% smaller with the dot. They are actually impressively small with a dot.

Wow. Just . . . wow.

[DocGKR]

This is typical 2 hand slow or timed fire for my RDS equipped Glocks at 25 yds:
http://pistol-forum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=181&d=1318024995
At 50 yds, the rounds typically are all within the 7 ring on the NRA B8.

With the Defoor pistol test #3: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wugfoKJ0-fA&feature=related, the shooter starts at the target and runs out to 50 yds where 2 shots are fired into the A-zone, distance is then closed to 25 yds and another 2 shots are fired into the A-zone. Shooter runs to 12 yards and makes 2 head shots, then runs to 6 yds and makes and additional 2 head shots. To pass, the entire test must be completed within 60 sec; the 4 body shots must score 16 or higher; all of the head shots must be in the head zone with at least 2 in the “credit card” A-zone. In running the test with an RDS equipped Glock, I typically score 18 or 20 on the 4 body shots made at 50 & 25 yds. My M&P45's with RDS are even more accurate...

In short, I find accuracy with my RDS equipped pistols outstanding...what I still need to work on is my speed with them.

[YVK]

Wow. Just . . . wow.

just as a side note, while increase in accuracy is noted universally as exemplified by DocGKR above, the magnitude of benefit will vary. I have a particularly hard time getting a steady sight picture with irons on a B-8 target. For me, both accuracy and groups are much better on 3x5 card vs B-8 at long distances, that is, with irons. RDS allows for an excellent consistency of sight picture and helps me out big time; may not be a case for another guy who may have better vision but worse trigger control.

Speed/accuracy trade-off is expected, likely could be minimized with training (I am curious what are the expectations for a learning curve in terms of round count), and, frankly, could be a moot point. Even with my current minimal time behind RDS, I can't really say what's more important - 0.3 or so off my draw or higher confidence on 25 yards on static targets.
When I get to seriously evaluate RDS, I'll be particularly interested in random-sequence shooting on multiple targets of different/unpredicted heights/distances to, shooting on the move, and shooting moving targets. These are the tasks that make me feel apprehensive about RDS, not first shot out of holsters.

[JHC]

In my brief experimentation (no more than a couple hundred rounds) with a 1st gen Fastfire (yuk!) on a G19, the dynamic stuff you described was the downfall - BUT I did not have the high vis backup irons to use as a first index reference. I know I didn't do the concept justice but it was back a few years ago before I'd seen those tall suppressor sights on the market etc. Right now I'm seeing the iron sights very well but I'm going to need the RDS one of these days.

[GJM]

What I look forward to testing, is the speed of the RMR equipped pistol, compared to irons on my known drills. Bill Rogers tells me the RDS is faster and more accurate than irons, and with a skilled shooter, the learning curve is minutes or hours, not days and months.

[YVK]

In my brief experimentation (no more than a couple hundred rounds) with a 1st gen Fastfire (yuk!) on a G19, the dynamic stuff you described was the downfall - BUT I did not have the high vis backup irons to use as a first index reference. I know I didn't do the concept justice but it was back a few years ago before I'd seen those tall suppressor sights on the market etc. Right now I'm seeing the iron sights very well but I'm going to need the RDS one of these days.

I have suppressor-height Ameriglo sights over my JP optic. I know people say to use them in conjunction with a dot. I've tried and failed. I know I've not given enough time. Nevertheless, if I am pressing out with a front sight, I have hard time switching to a different sighting reference a nano-second before the shot break. Besides, pressing out with front sight is more difficult than with conventional sights. I've asked around, and was told that if you run a dot, run with a dot.


What I look forward to testing, is the speed of the RMR equipped pistol, compared to irons on my known drills. Bill Rogers tells me the RDS is faster and more accurate than irons, and with a skilled shooter, the learning curve is minutes or hours, not days and months.

G., Rogers forgot more about shooting than I'll ever know, but minutes and hours sounds way off. DocGKR here has probably more rounds through RDS than anybody else, and he has reported that speed wasn't quite there yet after considerable round count. I have a sneaky suspicion I know why Rogers may think that way, but I'll leave speculations out of discussion. Let's see what your testing shows.

[DocGKR]

Under 15 yds irons are faster for me; beyond 15 yds the RDS is tough to beat...

[YVK]

Under 15 yds, irons are faster for me; beyond 15 yds, the RDS is tough to beat...

My guess, though, is that you're still committing to RDS up close too?

[DocGKR]

I am only using RDS equipped pistols these days, but I have not yet been able to crack 5 sec clean on the FAST using one...

[GJM]

Out of curiosity, have you compared your RDS FASTest to an iron sighted one, and if so, can you describe the difference in the various components of the drill?

[Sparks2112]

So is the general consensus that an rds is impossible on a p30 but possible on a p30L? I sent Bowie an email awhile back and never got a response. My eyes are going fast and the drop off in skill is becoming an embarrassment.

[Mark Housel]

Sparks,

I haven't personally examined either a P30 or P30L but would be glad to assess one for suitability for mounting an RDS of some sort.

Mark


So is the general consensus that an rds is impossible on a p30 but possible on a p30L? I sent Bowie an email awhile back and never got a response. My eyes are going fast and the drop off in skill is becoming an embarrassment.

[Sparks2112]

Sparks,

I haven't personally examined either a P30 or P30L but would be glad to assess one for suitability for mounting an RDS of some sort.

Mark

Tht would be excellent!

[GJM]

Last Saturday, I sent Mark Housel a Glock 17 slide and RMR. He received it Monday, completed the work Tuesday, and sent it back to me Wednesday. I received it Friday, and the installation looks excellent. Mark was also very responsive to email and my phone calls. Couldn't imagine a better experience.

My buddy also had a G17 done around the same time, and had the same experience as me.

[JB326]

This is a topic I've become interested in as of late, and I'm glad to have found a place where the true pro's and cons are being discussed in a mature manner.

My question is this though... Which RMR model are you guys going with and why? it seems to me that the 7 MOA would be ideal for "combat range", but I could also see the 3ish MOA being useful too. My purposes would be 1. Learning a new system/ method, 2. Gun games, 3. Potentially a carry/ duty system if I really took to the concept. The host would no doubt be a Glock, most likely a 17.

[GJM]

DockGKR, and others that are up on this, recommend the LED RMR-02 with an 8 MOA dot. THat is what I just put on my G17 slide. Far and away, best price I have seen, about $431, is here:

http://www.calssportingarmory.com/Trijicon_RM02_RMR_Sight_LED_8_0_MOA_Red_Dot_p/trrm02.htm?e=Y

[GJM]

I had my first range session today with my Mark Housel installed RMR on a G17. About 200 rounds fired. Caveat, I shoot an M&P better than a Glock, and most of my last five months shooting has been with an M&P.

Did an hour or so dry fire practice after receiving the slide last Friday. I noted two things about acquiring the dot. If I pressed out as if I was using the iron sights, I would get the red dot before the iron sights. Also, it was important that my support hand be rotated forward, with my support thumb extended -- otherwise the dot might go off the window high.

I started just as I do each of my practice sessions -- five shots from the extended, confirmed ready to a target at 7 yards (Rogers par time .5), followed by five shots from transition position (Rogers par .75). The session then went to Bill drills, various combinations of body and the 3x5 upper, steel at 12 and 15 yards, draws and strong and support hand only shooting. On problem was that my Blade Tech holster was snagging on the front suppressor sight, about every other draw, causing me to discontinue drawing as a safety precaution.

Short summary is I never lost the dot a single time. Times were similar on the close targets, although I would give an edge in accuracy to the RDS. Bill drill was equivalent time, and draws seemed equal time, though the holster problem frustrated my efforts to do enough draws to confirm. Low probability shots were A LOT easier and faster with the RDS. The biggest surprise was how much better my support hand shooting was with the RDS. I was shooting a six inch steel at 12 yards, breaking the shot at the extension of the press out, and it felt like cheating. This is a big deal for me, as support hand shooting is my biggest area for improvement. Shooting freestyle, from the transition position, on those same targets, it was hard to miss.

With the caveat that this was day one, this seems like a game changer for me. We went immediately for an hour hike afterwards, and if I wasn't having holster problems, I would have loaded some JHP ammo in, and carried the RMR 17 combo. I am very conservative about carry gear, so this underscores how much of an advantage I thought the RDS was. Can't wait to get out there again tomorrow, and can't wait to get my M&P back with an RMR!

[YVK]

Just curious if anybody knows whether RMR's "screen" is bigger, smaller or the same is JP Optic's.

[GJM]

Spent two hours this afternoon shooting the G17/RMR. Scrounged an HK45C holster that would fit the Glock with RMR. Did a variety of drills, from my Rogers standards, draws, Bill drills, multiple targets, FASTest, and one hand shooting.

Short answer is I am as fast as irons up close, but more accurate. No degradation to draw speed. Bill drills were more accurate at same time as with irons, with all shots going into a fist sized group. Low probability shots, the RDS run circles around irons. For example, I drew to a two inch dot at seven yards, consistently in 1.5 seconds, making one large hole from the seven separate presentations. Support hand only was markedly better with the RDS.

Ran just two FASTests, my first with the RMR, and was clean at 5.13 and 5.06.

I finished up with draws to a six inch steel at 25 yards, both with the RMR and irons to do a reality check. With concentration, I could hit the steel at the RDS time, but with the red dot, you had to work to miss the steel at that time. Then, ran a final Bill drill with irons, and I was .2 slower and had worse hits.

After two range sessions, I shoot the RMR better than I do irons -- period. I loaded the G17 up with carry ammo and took it with me hiking afterwards, it is now a carry gun.

[YVK]

... I drew to a two inch dot at seven yards, consistently in 1.5 seconds, making one large hole from the seven separate presentations.

That's pretty amazing time and accuracy, G., you've got be the fastest RDS adopter to date. Awesome performance, glad it is working so well for you.

[GJM]

When I asked Bill Rogers how long it would take me to transition, he looked at me, laughed and said fifteen minutes. So, actually I was a little slow getting with the program.

To your question on the size of the RMR versus what you have, I don't know. However, I have found that the way for me to consistently find the dot is not to look at the middle of the RMR, but rather to look thru the bottom of the RMR, at the height of the iron sights.

[JB326]

When I asked Bill Rogers how long it would take me to transition, he looked at me, laughed and said fifteen minutes. So, actually I was a little slow getting with the program.

To your question on the size of the RMR versus what you have, I don't know. However, I have found that the way for me to consistently find the dot is not to look at the middle of the RMR, but rather to look thru the bottom of the RMR, at the height of the iron sights.

The longer this thread goes the closer I find myself to 'pulling the trigger' on an RMR and some machine work. I put a about 50 rounds through an RMR equipped pistol a while back and found it awkward, but intriguging nonetheless.

[DocGKR]

Costa on RDS equipped pistols: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l93CpnWwSdU.

[YVK]

I don't follow his explanation of short slide vs long slide at all. Regardless of slide length, the RDS is positioned at the same spot.

[Magsz]

I don't follow his explanation of short slide vs long slide at all. Regardless of slide length, the RDS is positioned at the same spot.

He is speaking of slide velocity i believe.

Recoil impulse between shorter slides versus longer slides is different whether you're shooting irons or red dots.

Longer slides are a bit of a "kerclunk" so to speak whereas the shorter slides are more of a "snap" back into battery.

I like the way that the sights settle better on my G19 but i dig the recoil impulse of my 17.

Six in one hand, half a dozen in the other.

[Vinh]

Have any of you guys used the fiber optic RMR? If so, how does it fare with a hand-held or weapon-mounted flashlight? Or is an electronic variant absolutely mandatory?

[goteron]

The fiber optic varient washes out under a bright WML. IMO.

For a lot of reasons, I will only use a RM02 8moa LED non-adjustable. At least until a better mousetrap comes along.

[JodyH]

Sparks,

I haven't personally examined either a P30 or P30L but would be glad to assess one for suitability for mounting an RDS of some sort.

Mark
Not going to work.
There is a large slot milled into the bottom of the slide opposite the extractor to reduce weight. The slot runs from just behind the breech face all the way to just in front of the rear sight dovetail.
Even milling the rear of the slide down to the rear sight dovetail depth would intrude into that slot starting just in front of where the rear sight dovetail is.
That slot means that one of the RDS mounting screws wouldn't have anything to thread into.
You'd also have to contend with the firing pin plunger safety which is just in front of the rear sight dovetail on the extractor side.
I don't see any way to mill a P30 slide for a RDS.

[Mark Housel]

mine in bold


Not going to work.
There is a large slot milled into the bottom of the slide opposite the extractor to reduce weight. The slot runs from just behind the breech face all the way to just in front of the rear sight dovetail.

Even milling the rear of the slide down to the rear sight dovetail depth would intrude into that slot starting just in front of where the rear sight dovetail is.
That slot means that one of the RDS mounting screws wouldn't have anything to thread into.

Ran into this on a Long Glock slide. I had to fit a piece into the opening large enough to provide a location for threads. Much more material removed than added in so the lightening wasn't affected.

You'd also have to contend with the firing pin plunger safety which is just in front of the rear sight dovetail on the extractor side.
I don't see any way to mill a P30 slide for a RDS.

Sounds just like an M&P. Depending on depth this may or may not create an insurmountable problem.
I wouldn't give up on the concept yet!

[GJM]

Mark, good timing on your post, as I was just going to contact you. Are you as comfortable doing M&P slides as a Glock, and does the end result with an RMR all the way rearward come out as well as the Glock installations you do?

[Mark Housel]

email inbound

Mark, good timing on your post, as I was just going to contact you. Are you as comfortable doing M&P slides as a Glock, and does the end result with an RMR all the way rearward come out as well as the Glock installations you do?

[JodyH]

mine in bold
As soon as I get everything arranged I'll be sending you my wife's Glock 19 slide to mill for a Trijicon RMR02.
If you haven't looked at a P30 slide by then I can drop mine in the same box for you to eyeball.

[Mark Housel]

Jody,

Sounds good to me. Glad to give it a look first hand.

Mark

As soon as I get everything arranged I'll be sending you my wife's Glock 19 slide to mill for a Trijicon RMR02.
If you haven't looked at a P30 slide by then I can drop mine in the same box for you to eyeball.

[JM Campbell]

If you need a P30 slide right now I have a P30LS that is a spare that is not used right now that I can loan out for the cause.

John

[Mark Housel]

Sure, that would be great. I will post the results here once I have looked at a P30/P30LS.
From the pictures I have looked at the difference is the length of the slide, so it should be the same behind the breech face?


If you need a P30 slide right now I have a P30LS that is a spare that is not used right now that I can loan out for the cause.

John

[JM Campbell]

Yes sir exactly the same.

PM me your address and it will be in the mail tomorrow.

John

[peterb]

Given the pluses/minuses of a .22 as a training platform, do you see any point in setting up a .22 with a RDS just to get some experience with it? I was thinking that something like a Burris Fastfire II on my Ruger Mk II might be a low-cost way to experiment with a RDS on a pistol.

[goteron]

http://i575.photobucket.com/albums/ss192/goteron/9ddbb340.png

It isn't quite the same. Fun though. I wouldn't set one up as a training platform. A RDS SIRT would be more useful

[Sparks2112]

Mark if you can pm me your phone number. I spoke with Bowie and I now know for a fact you can mill the p30 / hk45's for a red dot. The issue is that to do so you disable the firing pin safety. As someone who carried a 1911 for years I don't mind this. Bowie won't do it however even with a waiver. :-/ guess I'll need to find a titanium firing pin and heavy spring if I go that route.

[YVK]

There are so many threads on this here that I forgot where I posted it, but I would seriously recommend shooting somebody's RDS-equipped pistol before putting an optic on a TDA/LEM gun.

[DocGKR]

I would NOT recommend inactivating the firing pin safety...

[Mark Housel]

Nor would I. Removing or deactivating that safety would be a show stopper for installing an RDS on that slide.
The liability implications are substantial.


I would NOT recommend inactivating the firing pin safety...

[ToddG]

I would NOT recommend inactivating the firing pin safety...

+∞

[F-Trooper05]

Interesting comment from LAV regarding red dots on semi-autos...

http://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=94864

[Sparks2112]

+∞

Good thing Mark is a genius and has found a workaround. :cool:

[JohnN]

Good thing Mark is a genius and has found a workaround. :cool:

The work around being...

Sent using Tapatalk

[Super J]

I'm super excited. Just got a call from Mark Housel...my G17 slide is on its way back with suppressor sights and rmr installed.

[Mark Housel]

The work around being...

Sent using Tapatalk
John,

I will write something up when the project is complete.
It's nothing magic nor is it Rocket Surgery. :)

Thanks,
Mark

[MD7305]

I read that some of you guys have used the Deltapoint but the RMR seems to be the majority favorite. I was curious about the Deltapoint in reference to battery life and how well the movement activated "on/off" worked?

I went with a Deltapoint mainly because it was literally given to me so I am basically getting a RDS/handgun for the cost of Mark's voodoo magic. It's currently in AZ, getting hacked to pieces I hope, and I can't wait to try it out. My only previous expereince with a RDS/Pistol was with a DR.Optic mounted on the rear sight dovetail. I liked the package but not the lack of iron sight access.

I really became interested in the idea of a RDS after taking a class from Ken Hackathorn who had a lot of positive things to say about their use. This thread drove me over the edge and pointed me in Mark's direction.

[Decado]

The RMR I have mounted on my G17 has proven to be very robust. It has been accidently dropped from a height of approx 6' on to a tile floor landing directly on the RMR. It was also and slammed in the door of my jeep. No loss of zero occurred in either instance.

[Super J]

Update. Just received my slide, rmr and suppressor sights from Mark Housel. The workmanship is excellent. The rmr fits perfectly in the milled area with no room to spare. Communication from Mr Housel was prompt and on point.

I will be certain to give a range report as soon as I get a moment to try it all out.

[MD7305]

I too received my slide back from Mark on Thursday. My turn around was 15 days from the day I mailed it off until the day it arrived back home. Mark's communtication from the beginning was outstanding and there was no question he couldn't answer. I have to be honest that I can't believe how affordable his prices are and how quick he compeleted the job. The details in the work, including the holes in the rear sight for access to the lock down screws on the Deltapoint, really illustrate the effort put forth by Mark. I took the setup to the range (busy indoor range) and got a zero I'm happy with. I'll probably get it to a private range to refine it a bit. My Delta is a 3.5 MOA dot (why? it was free) and I find it easy to pick up. I'd love to try the 7.5MOA triangle to compare. I put some orange paint on the front post and I've learned that if I can locate the front sight, the dot is there. I put 350rds. through it with no sign of zero change or other issues. I'm looking forward to trying it out more and evaluation of it. My range time thus far is just figuring it out. Now, if Santa brings me a Dremel I'll "make" a holster fit the combo....

Mark's work on my Gen.3 G23:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v141/doughnut/GlockDelta001.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v141/doughnut/GlockDelta004.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v141/doughnut/GlockDelta005.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v141/doughnut/GlockDelta006.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v141/doughnut/GlockDelta009.jpg

[Mark Housel]

Thank you for the kind words and the great pictures.

[JM Campbell]

Just came across this set up, your comments please.

Aimpoint H-1/T-1 Glock setup

http://www.laruetactical.com/combo-aimpoint-micro-h-1-4-moa-or-micro-t-1-4-moa-and-glock-aimpoint-micro-mount

[Mark Housel]

I think that this mounting system is the one that is being discussed to try to eliminate to allow the T-1 to mount directly to the slide to lower the height.

Some other folks have offered to send me a mount and a T-1 to work with so I will hopefully be working on this soon.


Just came across this set up, your comments please.

Aimpoint H-1/T-1 Glock setup

http://www.laruetactical.com/combo-aimpoint-micro-h-1-4-moa-or-micro-t-1-4-moa-and-glock-aimpoint-micro-mount

[Spr1]

There are so many threads on this here that I forgot where I posted it, but I would seriously recommend shooting somebody's RDS-equipped pistol before putting an optic on a TDA/LEM gun.
Can you expound on this? Thanks.

[YVK]

Can you expound on this? Thanks.

TDA/LEM guns have a long trigger pull and require a good pressout on presentation to get a first shot off quickly. Pressout relies on early visual acquisition of front sight since one shouldn't start trigger press until reasonable sight alignment is achieved. The dot is not visible during presentation until almost complete extension is achieved. If you got an RDS on DA/LEM pistol, you'll have to negotiate the entire first trigger pull length during late stages of presentation. Alternatively, you'll have to start trigger pull way before you see the dot; I personally think it is wrong practice. Alternatively, you'll have to start pressout with your irons and then switch onto a dot sometime during presentation; some people do that, but most think if you got a dot, you need to run with a dot. My personal opinion is that RDS lends itself best when used on pistols with short trigger pull like Glock, M&P or 1911 that can be presented in "present-pause-press" fashion.

[Spr1]

Thanks. That makes sense. I have used a red dot on an open IPSC gun, and a Ruger MK2, as well as, a DA revolver, but on the revolver it was never for a maximum speed presentation.

[JSGlock34]

Just got my G17 back from Mark Housel. This is my experiment for 2012. Looks fantastic and Mark's turnaround time was unbelievably fast.

http://i183.photobucket.com/albums/x131/JSGlock34/IMG_2184.jpg

[Mark Housel]

Just came across this set up, your comments please.

Aimpoint H-1/T-1 Glock setup

http://www.laruetactical.com/combo-aimpoint-micro-h-1-4-moa-or-micro-t-1-4-moa-and-glock-aimpoint-micro-mount

First prototype of that mount milled into a G17 slide.
411412

[Super J]

I finally made it out to the range with my gen 4 17 with rmr installed by Mark Housel. This was the first time shooting a red dot on a pistol and I absolutely love it. Mark bore sighted the sight for me and I did not need to make any adjustments.

The dot really shows up my issues with trigger control as I can more easily perceive issues based on the dot moving as I manipulate the trigger. I'm sold on the RDS on pistols now.

Thanks again to Mark for answering all my questions, fast turn around time, and excellent craftsmanship.

[JM Campbell]

Thanks for the pics of the AimPoint Mark.

I was browsing another forum and came across a post by David Bowie about the T1/H1 on pistols. Apparently he has also been attempting this and should have a offered package out soon also.

I really like the idea of a T1 but think the size is going to hinder performance in a ccw role (for my choice of AIWB). The future may very well be in mrds but I believe a smaller version of the T1 and with proven performance of the current T1 would be ideal.

With that being said, do I think it has it's place? Hell yes, but for me where and when is it's place?

That is the question we all must ask ourselves.
Samsung Galaxy S II Skyrocket

[texag]

Thanks for the pics of the AimPoint Mark.

I was browsing another forum and came across a post by David Bowie about the T1/H1 on pistols. Apparently he has also been attempting this and should have a offered package out soon also.

I really like the idea of a T1 but think the size is going to hinder performance in a ccw role (for my choice of AIWB). The future may very well be in mrds but I believe a smaller version of the T1 and with proven performance of the current T1 would be ideal.

With that being said, do I think it has it's place? Hell yes, but for me where and when is it's place?

That is the question we all must ask ourselves.
Samsung Galaxy S II Skyrocket

I was looking at the H1 on my AR and thought the same thing. The brightness knob/battery compartment is the deal breaker for me. I'm already pushing my luck by carrying a G17 with as skinny as I am.

I love this thread. All the honest info from people using these and doing the install is great. I've still got great eyes and have no problem tracking the front sight when I do my part, but can see a definite advantage to having these on a pistol. I'll have an RMR on a pistol when I reach that magical place where I can buy the ammo I want with my fun money and still have some left over.

[Mark Housel]

Thanks for the pics of the AimPoint Mark.

I was browsing another forum and came across a post by David Bowie about the T1/H1 on pistols. Apparently he has also been attempting this and should have a offered package out soon also.

I really like the idea of a T1 but think the size is going to hinder performance in a ccw role (for my choice of AIWB). The future may very well be in mrds but I believe a smaller version of the T1 and with proven performance of the current T1 would be ideal.

With that being said, do I think it has it's place? Hell yes, but for me where and when is it's place?

That is the question we all must ask ourselves.
Samsung Galaxy S II Skyrocket

Yes, David is working on using the Picatinny rail mount if I heard correctly. Another person sent me one of those mounts and that was my first thought. That seems in some ways a more straight forward exercise.

It may or may not be as low, as the hard limit is the cylinder of the sight touching down on the top of the slide. My installation is just shy of that.
But it will likely offer a better chance at a rear BUIS as it shortens the mounting footprint. It also speaks to the "But, what about a Quick Detach" crowd and probably will be marketed on those points.

Whether the Aimpoint is a suitable/better CCW platform or not? I think that you may be correct, the sight is much larger than other MRDS.
But there seemed to be interest and some specific requests. So I availed myself to the generous offers of slides, mounts, sights and tried to figure something out.
This first prototype was to a great extent a chance to learn how this could be done. It will give me some information about whether this implementation concept will be acceptable or not. There are a number of improvements that will be in subsequent installations.

Thank you to all that sent me HW, SW, 3D models, etc.

[Dagga Boy]

For those at SHOT, I will have this gun with me. Mark was VERY helpful on taking on this project. I tried the RMR/suppressor sight set up, and wasn't happy. I then went to the Aimpoint Micro mounted to a G17 slide with the factory mount. I was happy till the sight moved after the LaRue range shoot. The Micro is a bulletproof sight, with a huge battery life, a battery that can be changed without removing the sight, and I am used to looking through them. I will now have a set up where the sight is anchored and low. We also used a T1 for potential use with NVG's and a suppressor.

I have carried both a RMR equiped gun and an Aimpoint equipped gun. The Aimpoint carried better for me in a stock Bladetech IWB rig. It is round to the "gut" side for a right hander, and it contains within the width of a Glock slide. I am looking forward to really running this thing hard in future months.

Again, Thanks Mark!

[JDM]

The additional reciprocating weight isn't an issue? (I have no idea how much a T1 weighs, so forgive me of this is an ignorant question)

[Dagga Boy]

The additional reciprocating weight isn't an issue? (I have no idea how much a T1 weighs, so forgive me of this is an ignorant question)

About 3 and a half ounces. THe only issue I had originally was brass hitting the front of the lens. This can be sort of a later Gen Glock "thing". The addition of a HRED set up seemed to have solved the issue. I will confirm when I get some rounds down range through it next Monday during either the AAC or LaRue range shoot (they keep changing which one I'll be working). I have never had a malfunction with the set up, just the funny ejection, and that was with Walmart sale UMC ammo....:eek:.

[JDM]

Very interesting. Thanks!

[Mark Housel]

For those at SHOT, I will have this gun with me. Mark was VERY helpful on taking on this project. I tried the RMR/suppressor sight set up, and wasn't happy. I then went to the Aimpoint Micro mounted to a G17 slide with the factory mount. I was happy till the sight moved after the LaRue range shoot. The Micro is a bulletproof sight, with a huge battery life, a battery that can be changed without removing the sight, and I am used to looking through them. I will now have a set up where the sight is anchored and low. We also used a T1 for potential use with NVG's and a suppressor.

I have carried both a RMR equiped gun and an Aimpoint equipped gun. The Aimpoint carried better for me in a stock Bladetech IWB rig. It is round to the "gut" side for a right hander, and it contains within the width of a Glock slide. I am looking forward to really running this thing hard in future months.

Again, Thanks Mark!

You are quite welcome. Slide is on its way USPS Express, should be there tomorrow per their ETA.

I have another gentleman that is sending a slide for a different mounting approach that has as its primary goal the lowest installation height possible. This will eliminate the mount and the slide will become the mount.

BUIS should be very possible using factory height sights.

Should be another cool project.

[Dagga Boy]

"Should be another cool project."

I have lots of Glocks and Aimpoints.........:cool:

[DocGKR]

In addition to Mark Housel's superb mounting of micro-Aimpoints on slides, David Bowie is also installing these:

http://www.tridentconcepts.com/alumni/Portals/0/NTForums_Attach/111350075171.jpg

[TCinVA]

You guys are determined to make me go out and spend money on getting a Glock RDS equipped, aren't ya?

[JDM]

In addition to Mark Housel's superb mounting of micro-Aimpoints on slides, David Bowie is also installing these:

http://www.tridentconcepts.com/alumni/Portals/0/NTForums_Attach/111350075171.jpg

Doc, what caliber Glock is that?

[orionz06]

I might just buy one of the larue micro adapters to try.

[Mark Housel]

You guys are determined to make me go out and spend money on getting a Glock RDS equipped, aren't ya?

And then our work here will be complete. :p

[DocGKR]

BOM--That is a G20 10mm.

[Vinh]

You guys are determined to make me go out and spend money on getting a Glock RDS equipped, aren't ya?
Agreed. When the gadget is finally released, I'm probably done with unpopular guns. I don't care whether it works or not, I'll have a Glock with all the toppings, please.

[JAD]

Agreed. When the gadget is finally released, I'm probably done with unpopular guns. I don't care whether it works or not, I'll have a Glock with all the toppings, please.

Glocks aren't popular, they're just common.

[LSP972]

I have two Bowie G19s with the now-discontinued Trijicon version of the Docter/JPoint inlet into the slides. Makes for a really neat carry package. He's doing a G30 for me as we speak.

But at heart, I'm an HK guy. I carried Glocks for years, and while they are satisfactory pistols... they aren't an HK. I had these done because the RDS is the answer to "old man eyes", and nobody will do HKs... until now. I'll be sending an HK USP Compact slide to Mark Housel this week. He has agreed to look at it and check the feasibility of the work. If he can pull it off, I'll be a VERY happy boy.

I have a question that perhaps someone here can shed some light on. It is my understanding that the Docter is a bit more durable than the JPoint, due to the metal housing of the former. Plus, it can be had with a 7MOA dot, which I find preferable to the usual 3.5MOA dot on other offerings. I should mention here that, for several reasons not open to change, this size/style sight is what I'm staying with. I know the RMR is more durable. It is also too large, in height and width, for my IWB purposes. Yes I know about AWIB. I don't like that. And the DeltaPoint is too wide as well, when carried IWB. And since Trijicon has dropped their version (which was probably made in the same factory), the Docter and JPoint are the only games in town.

So... anyone have any experience with both the Docter and JPoint? I'm looking for longevity issues here; I know how they work, adjust, etc. I have a JPoint on my AA .22 conversion kit for the G19, and the dots on the three Trijicon units I have seem crisper and more precise.

.

[Super J]

You guys are determined to make me go out and spend money on getting a Glock RDS equipped, aren't ya?

TC
I got hooked on the idea of getting my G17 with a rmr from all the threads and I am glad that I did as I love it. Prior to receiving my rmr'ed pistol, I had never even seen one in person. So I went on faith that all of my internet brethrens and sistrens were on to something and trusted that they would not steer me wrong.

I had Mark Housel install my rmr and suppressor sights and I could not ask for any better service than what I received from Mark.

[Mark Housel]

Thank you all for the kind words.

[jetfire]

I mentioned in my training journal that I was going to try this out today, and true to my word I certainly did. It was weird, to say the least. I ran this gun (http://gunnuts.net/2012/01/31/slide-mounted-red-dot-sights/), a Glock 17-esque build with an extended barrel and a Burris FastFire mounted directly to the slide.

Technical notes

Zeroing a FastFire sucks - you have to mess around with the locking screws before you can mess around with the adjustment, and there are no "clicks" on the adjustment itself.
POI shifted around a bit and then eventually settled down after about 50 rounds.
To change the battery in the FastFire, you have to completely remove it from the slide...which sucks because then you need to re-zero it.
The mounting holes on the FastFire needed to be drilled out a bit to accommodate the mounted studs on the pre-milled slide.


The FastFire didn't break or explode after two shots, contrary to some of the stuff I'd read when researching the optic. The reason for using a FastFire instead of the more awesome Trijicon RMR or Leupold Deltapoint is that I happened to have a FastFire in the office from a different project, so it made the most sense.

Shooting notes

Until today, the number of rounds I'd fired through a dot equipped semi-auto was probably less than 100. As such, my first shot was considerably slower (0.20 seconds on average) to targets at close range.
Interestingly, my first shot to a down 0 at 20+ yards was faster than using iron sights, because the 3.5 MOA dot provides a more precise aiming point.
Shooting with both eyes open and really being able to interface with the sights was awesome. I have some issues with my left eye that prevent me from focusing on the front sight with both eyes open.
Accuracy was a piece of cake. 5 for 5 on head shots at an IDPA target wasn't just easy, it was almost trivial. It felt like cheating.
Tracking the dot in recoil wasn't actually that difficult; while I'd lose it at the extreme end of the arc of the gun's recoil, I'd pick it up again before the gun was back on target.
Dealing with sight offset at 7 yards on a pistol was kind of weird


Honestly, if there was one thing I came home with after spending a couple of hours futzing around with this and 200 rounds, it was that I am now kind of disappointed that work is going to have me shooting a .45 most of the year. This is a fascinating piece of technology, and I would love to spend a year and 50,000 rounds really working it out. My gut tells me that with a little practice and fine tuning, this would actually be a much faster combo for me in 9mm than iron sights. On the bright side, I know exactly what it is I'll be working on next year.

[GJM]

I find that I am no slower to a first shot with the RMR, as I press out looking for the iron sights, and the dot magically appears before I would be breaking the shot with irons. While the advantages of the RMR are not enormous in good light on high probability close range targets, when you start shooting more difficult shots, especially at distance, or in dimmer light, the capability of the dot is incredible.

I plan to run an RMR M&P (assuming I get on on an acceptable M&P) at the Rogers School in March. Since I was at RSS in Late October/early November, and shot an M&P Pro with iron sights, I will see the impact of the RDS on my scores on the daily school test.

[jetfire]

The gun I'm using right now doesn't have BUIS on it, so I was pretty much left looking for the dot. My presentation usually had the dot coming out high initially. It'd probably take at least 500 reps before I really felt comfortable drawing with the dot.

[GJM]

I found that painting my front sight orange, significantly helped my speed at acquiring the dot -- as the orange sight was a lead in to the dot. Absent BUIS, looking at the bottom of the optic, rather than thru the middle, seems to help.

One hand, especially support hand, it seems like driving the pistol out directly, but slightly higher, gives me the best results in acquiring the dot.

[JSGlock34]

I have a bit over 500 rounds downrange with the Trijicon RMR equipped G17 now. Here are some observations from my transition efforts...



I'm significantly more accurate at longer distances. Out to 15 yards I cut one ragged hole in the target. At 25 yards, I'm shooting much better groups than I ever did with irons on a pistol. I'd love to try some extended range shooting with this combination, but alas my typical range is limited to 25 yards.


I'm slower from the draw and slightly slower reacquiring the dot after a reload. My usual cold FAST times are in the 6-7 second range (occasionally I break the six second barrier). I'm typically scoring in the 7-8 second range with the RMR right now, but each time I practice this gets a bit better. My best runs with the RMR so far are under seven seconds, but those were not run cold nor am I hitting those times consistently. As with everything, I expect this to improve with practice.


It took me some time to become adjusted to the 'wobble zone' of my dot, and in the beginning I was snatching the trigger significantly (often getting low hits), but now that I have become used to the dot I get consistently good results. I'm sure this trigger work will pay benefits when I shoot irons as well. It is much easier to 'call my shots' with the RDS - when I've yanked a shot I know.


One exception is my strong hand and weak hand only shooting. With irons, I'm fairly proficient with these skills (I probably practice this skill more than most but less than I should). One handed shooting with the RDS, my dot seems to dance all over the place. Interestingly, I've gotten my best results with these skills when using my irons to line up first and then picking up the dot before breaking the shot - which is kinda defeating the purpose here. Obviously my 'wobble zone' is more pronounced as I'm less steady with one hand, but I haven't yet achieved the zen-like acceptance of the 'wobble zone' when shooting one handed like I have when shooting with two hands. Something else I'm dedicating practice to.



I've had the opportunity to shoot one club match with the RDS G17, and I'm thinking about trying it out at a future KSTG match (for science). The one match I did shoot was fairly dynamic with a lot of movement and shooting from cover. As the match went on, I became less aware that I was shooting a RDS pistol and focused more on the stage at hand. And while I felt slow, it didn't appear to reflect negatively in my overall performance, and the dot was very welcome for some longer range shots.

[DocGKR]

LSP972--Don Lazzarini at Santa Clara PD SWAT was mounting Dr Optics on Glocks and 1911's back in the late 90's and early 2000's--they worked OK, but several did get broken. Dr. Optic was NOT offering very good CS at that time. The military Dr. Optic is probably more durable than the JPoint. Have you looked at the ITI mRDS? It is about the same size as the Dr. Optic and has several advantages.

I prefer the RMR02 on duty/carry pistols. It is simple and always on, ready to go. We now have some RMR02's that have been running continuously for over 2 yrs without need of a battery change. We recently began another trial of five RMR07's. The RMR07 is convenient on practice pistols, as it can be turned off to practice with the iron sights and to save the battery. However, there have been a few issues with accidental shifting of red dot settings during pistol manipulations--I have experienced this first hand. In addition, a couple of the RMR's have been having issues with windage drifting while shooting--be sure to use witness marks! Unlike our RMR02's, the RMR07 glass has a blue tint--this is quite obvious, but not terribly distracting during shooting. I personally see NO advantage to the RMR07 on a duty/carry pistol and a lot of reasons to avoid them.

[DocGKR]

As posted by "goteron" at LF:
The new Unity Tactical designed "L-bracket" is another exciting option for mounting RDS to handguns. The slide is milled to accept the L-bracket and then brackets can be made for any optic you would like to try: RMR, Deltapoint, micro-Aimpoint, ITI m-RDS, etc... The design pictured shows the glock slide cut to accept the L-bracket, which has a dovetail fore and aft, you mount your optic, slide the bracket in from the side, and secure with two screws. It does not interfere with any of the inner workings of the gun whatsoever. L-brackets will be available with iron-sights as well so you can swap back from an RDS. It's simple to machine and once you have your slide milled you could just purchase a new L-bracket for the next optic. Its a more universal option and allow the easy addition of future optic designs.

http://i1197.photobucket.com/albums/aa436/TacticalElitist/L-Bracket2.jpg

http://i1197.photobucket.com/albums/aa436/TacticalElitist/Sightoption2.jpg

http://i1197.photobucket.com/albums/aa436/TacticalElitist/BUISOptionExploded.jpg

http://i1197.photobucket.com/albums/aa436/TacticalElitist/SlideDovetail.jpg

http://i1197.photobucket.com/albums/aa436/TacticalElitist/T-1Exploded.jpg

http://i1197.photobucket.com/albums/aa436/TacticalElitist/T-1.jpg

[jetfire]

That is very interesting, although my skeptical side looks at it and sees another potential failure point. But I like that they're thinking about it.

[Mark Housel]

In addition, a couple of the RMR's have been having issues with windage drifting while shooting--be sure to use witness marks!
I hadn't heard of this as a problem before...until yesterday. I spoke to a gentleman that had sent a couple back to Trijicon for this issue.

Perhaps it isn't such an isolated thing?

[DocGKR]

Which model had the problem?

So far we have only seen it on the recent batch of RMR07's.

[HeadHunter]

I plan to run an RMR M&P (assuming I get on on an acceptable M&P) at the Rogers School in March. Since I was at RSS in Late October/early November, and shot an M&P Pro with iron sights, I will see the impact of the RDS on my scores on the daily school test.

The feedback I received on the last group of RDS at the School was that dirt and debris tend to build up on the back side of the lens. It's probably worthwhile to institute some kind of cleaning protocol. This was enough of a problem that Bill designed a holster that covers the rear of of RDS to keep it clean. He showed it to me at SHOT but I do not know when it will be available.

[Mark Housel]

Which model had the problem?

So far we have only seen it on the recent batch of RMR07's.
He was referring to RM02's I believe because this has been what sounded like quite a while back. He was talking about a LW slide done by OST some time back.

Beyond his claim of movement I have no other information though.

[GJM]

The feedback I received on the last group of RDS at the School was that dirt and debris tend to build up on the back side of the lens. It's probably worthwhile to institute some kind of cleaning protocol. This was enough of a problem that Bill designed a holster that covers the rear of of RDS to keep it clean. He showed it to me at SHOT but I do not know when it will be available.

Bill told me April/May on the new holsters and available for the Glock and M&P.

[DocGKR]

Micro Aimpoint w/BIS:

http://i1197.photobucket.com/albums/aa436/TacticalElitist/T-1BUIS.jpg

http://i1197.photobucket.com/albums/aa436/TacticalElitist/T-1BUIS2.jpg

[LSP972]

LSP972--Don Lazzarini at Santa Clara PD SWAT was mounting Dr Optics on Glocks and 1911's back in the late 90's and early 2000's--they worked OK, but several did get broken. Dr. Optic was NOT offering very good CS at that time. The military Dr. Optic is probably more durable than the JPoint. Have you looked at the ITI mRDS? .

The military DR optic is not available for sale, I take it? Would it be safe to assume that the "civilian" DR and the JPoint are basically a wash? IOW, neither better than the other?

Nope, haven't seen the MRDS. I'll check it out. Thanks.

.

[goteron]

Unity Tactical has partnered with Mark Housel at L&M Precision Gunworks to bring a new option for RDS mounting to the market.

This new design uses a standardized cut on the slide to accept a variety of adapters. We have adapter designs for the T-1, RMR, Deltapoint, MRDS, Doctor, J-point, and iron sights. One of the great features about this design is its ability to be future optic compatible. The adapter plate is captured fore and aft by a dovetail on the slide and is held in place by two screws on the side of the slide. It offers the ability to use Backup Iron Sights in a variety of configurations as well.

We are very exicted about this partnership as Mark brings an immense amount of experience and wealth of knowledge on the subject and gunsmithing as a whole. L&M Precision has exclusive rights to the design and all ordering will be done through him. We will continue to work with him to develop this concept further and expand it to other platforms.

Pricing is not set yet, but will be very reasonable. The goal is to eventually have some adapters in stock and keep the lead time for slide milling down to a minimum.

The project is still in the prototype phase, but should be progressing quickly. Stay tuned!

http://i1197.photobucket.com/albums/aa436/TacticalElitist/L-Bracket1.jpg

http://i1197.photobucket.com/albums/aa436/TacticalElitist/L-Bracket2.jpg

http://i1197.photobucket.com/albums/aa436/TacticalElitist/T-1Exploded.jpg

http://i1197.photobucket.com/albums/aa436/TacticalElitist/T-1BUIS.jpg

http://i1197.photobucket.com/albums/aa436/TacticalElitist/SlideDovetail.jpg

We have run FEA and fatigue analysis on the new cut and interface between the slide and adapter, it looks to be a bomber solution.

http://i1197.photobucket.com/albums/aa436/TacticalElitist/Displacement.jpg

It does mount the optic very slightly higher than a dedicated mill job, but the benefits outweigh this in our opinion.

Please let us know if you have any questions. Thanks

[TheRoland]

Slight digression, but what's the draw of mounting an Aimpoint Micro over the RMR? Battery Life?

It looks like it would be large enough to make the setup awkward.

[DocGKR]

Compared to the RMR or RMR-A, the Micro Aimpoint has a better battery life, more adjustments to dot--including NV capability, better water proofing, greater durability, and it is exactly the same optic as already on many carbines thus providing an identical "sight picture".

[willowofwisp]

Goteron,

have you guys started a patent process for this yet? if not I wouldn't be surprised to see this being copied by many others.

[goteron]

Goteron,

have you guys started a patent process for this yet? if not I wouldn't be surprised to see this being copied by many others.

Yes we have. We would hope that competitors would innovate and not just copy. We arr all for honorable competition. It moves the market forward, and at the end of the day, were all on the same team. Our goal is to serve the military, law enforcement, and responsible armed civialians by releasing useful and valuable products. If we can do that, our mission will be complete. We will continue to improve this design and expand selections ( we have an M&P design, working on P30, XD, and a few others.)

This isn't our core business, but we have the contacts we need to get it into the hands of some guys that will really get some use out of it.

Thanks

[JV_]

goteron - Please check your PMs.

[DocGKR]

How about working a solution up for the old dinosaurs with bad eyes still relying on 1911's?

[goteron]

I just need a 1911 slide, as, admittedly, I dont have one.

[DocGKR]

I thought everyone in the South was required to own one, along with an N-frame.

[goteron]

Not a 1911.... but...

Here is the M&P solution. You can use Ameriglo Suppressor Height Sights and just swap optics.

I think we are going to keep "Atom" as the working title for now.

RMR

http://i1197.photobucket.com/albums/aa436/TacticalElitist/MPAtomMount.jpg

http://i1197.photobucket.com/albums/aa436/TacticalElitist/MPAtomMountExploded.jpg

http://i1197.photobucket.com/albums/aa436/TacticalElitist/MPAtomMountRMRBUIS.jpg

T-1

http://i1197.photobucket.com/albums/aa436/TacticalElitist/MPAtomMountT1.jpg

http://i1197.photobucket.com/albums/aa436/TacticalElitist/MPAtomMountT1Exploded.jpg

http://i1197.photobucket.com/albums/aa436/TacticalElitist/MPAtomMountT1BUIS.jpg

Deltapoint

http://i1197.photobucket.com/albums/aa436/TacticalElitist/MPAtomMountDeltapoint.jpg

http://i1197.photobucket.com/albums/aa436/TacticalElitist/MPAtomMountDeltapointExploded.jpg

http://i1197.photobucket.com/albums/aa436/TacticalElitist/MPAtomMountDeltapointBUIS.jpg

[Vanilla Gorilla]

I thought everyone in the South was required to own one, along with an N-frame.



Yeah but we aren't from here. I have a couple but Dave Sams is expensive and I am not ponying up a slide to chop. If anyone has a RIA Slide or other beater 1911 Slide they wont to lone out to be modeled let us know.

[SLG]

Yeah but we aren't from here. I have a couple but Dave Sams is expensive and I am not ponying up a slide to chop. If anyone has a RIA Slide or other beater 1911 Slide they wont to lone out to be modeled let us know.

I can help you with that. PM or email me.

[DocGKR]

Well done on the M&P!

[goteron]

This will be the last picture for a while as we work on it, I don't want to derail this thread.

http://i1197.photobucket.com/albums/aa436/TacticalElitist/ThreeOptics.jpg

[Fly320s]

No website yet for Unity Tactical?

I get the page with a logo, but that is all.

[Vanilla Gorilla]

Were busy on a couple other projects so the website is on hold. You won't be buying anything from us anyway everything will come from Mark Housel. We are at least 45-Days out at this point.

[wicked_police]

This will be the last picture for a while as we work on it, I don't want to derail this thread.

http://i1197.photobucket.com/albums/aa436/TacticalElitist/ThreeOptics.jpg

I'm going to find out what I have to do to get one of those mounts for my Gen4 G17 and Micro T-1....

[GJM]

Bill Rogers showed our class today the prototype models of the new Safariland holster for the Glock and M&P with an optic.

http://i250.photobucket.com/albums/gg251/GJMandes/RMR1.jpg

http://i250.photobucket.com/albums/gg251/GJMandes/RMR2.jpg

Out of a class of 18, 2 of the 4 top shooters so far are running an M&P with an optic (1 RMR and 1 Delta Point).

[DocGKR]

Looks exactly like a 6354DO with a rotating clam-shell like hood added over the optic instead of the rigid plastic guard. I'll bet it uses the same internal ALS mechanism...

If they only had the initial ones available for the Glock and not M&P, then that would tend to confirm a 6354DO lineage.

[MD7305]

How adaptable will these be in reference to setups using rear-mounted iron sight vs. using a forward-mounted iron sight? I imagine there is a difference that might effect the tolerances of how well the holster fits your specific setup. Any word from Safariland if they'll use some type of universal "all-fitting" voodoo magic to help cover a variety of dot/sight placements?

[goteron]

Well guys, we have an update. Mark has been working around the clock and the prototypes look great. his work in general is amazing.

We have the quotes back from the manufacturer and everything is falling into place. We are going to let some end users bang on these for awhile, figure out some logistics, and then go into production with Glock T-1 and RMR, followed by additional optics and M&Ps.

http://i1197.photobucket.com/albums/aa436/TacticalElitist/f8352178.jpg

http://i1197.photobucket.com/albums/aa436/TacticalElitist/ad97d84c.jpg

http://i1197.photobucket.com/albums/aa436/TacticalElitist/ab4ea692.jpg

[t1tan]

Looks fantastic, I really want to do that to my 17 when I have the money. Strongly considering a 26 to do as well.

[JodyH]

Can you make the rear sight part of the mount?

[Mark Housel]

Can you make the rear sight part of the mount?

The current plan as I understand it is to support a BUIS dovetail in front of the ATOM adapter plate.

I don't know if the adapter can be extended enough in either direction to incorporate a BUIS as an integral part of the adapter or not. The limitation is the striker safety plunger in front and the back cover slit to the rear.

goteron is probably the best person to address this question.

[goteron]

To answer your question, yes we have a design for it, but its not super practical, as you can see in the pictures below, the sights are installed on the gun as is. And we have a "filler" plate if you want to use irons only.

[goteron]

Well guys, here it is, Mark worked his Black Magic with the sights and we have some pictures of the fully complete prototypes. Once we get them back, some will scatter to the wind for testing by other end users, and some will stay with us for testing.

http://i1197.photobucket.com/albums/aa436/TacticalElitist/6854521442_ec3c2d71b8_o.jpg

http://i1197.photobucket.com/albums/aa436/TacticalElitist/6854522166_ab38902ce4_b.jpg

http://i1197.photobucket.com/albums/aa436/TacticalElitist/6854522936_5b06a40b7d_b.jpg

On a side note, this has sparked our interest to produce some of the other designs have been sitting on. For us, its a big step, but once we get the prototypes complete, we will share them.

[DocGKR]

Well Done!

[Matt O]

Wow, that is very impressive work. Definitely looking forward to hearing how the testing goes!

[Doug]

That is awesome work.

After a lengthy search, I found a spare stock glock 19 slide I bought to get milled. The purchase of an optic, or decision thereof, has been holding me back.

A lot of people have Aimpoint Micros that can invest time in the concept before buying another $500 plus optic.

Do want!

How about a video of that Aimpoint slide in action?

[goteron]

Video will be coming shortly. We are going to do some static zero-hold tests first, and then get out to the range.

[Doug]

Video will be coming shortly. We are going to do some static zero-hold tests first, and then get out to the range.

Great. Look forward to it.

[wicked_police]

Oh man, I need one of those slides for my Micro.

[goteron]

Well, we got the prototypes in today, the work is incredible. The fit is perfect, lockup is great, and they seem to hold zero well, we only conducted a quick static test, and won't have full results until we hit the range. Less talking, more pictures:
http://i1197.photobucket.com/albums/aa436/TacticalElitist/IMG_0987.jpg
Milled Slide, sorry for the poor picture, the finish is impressive, not a single tooling mark, everything is silky smooth, and the adapter plates (Even hand made prototypes) slide in and out magically.
http://i1197.photobucket.com/albums/aa436/TacticalElitist/IMG_0988.jpg
Bottom of the adapter plate with T-1 Mounted. There is only 1 change I will make on the production version, and that is to reduce the size of the occular relief for the T-1, functionally insignificant, but should reduce costs.
http://i1197.photobucket.com/albums/aa436/TacticalElitist/IMG_0989.jpg
The T-1 Mounted from the side. The adapters return to 0 very well, so if you need to shoot irons for a while, when you replace the T-1, it should be very close to your 0.
http://i1197.photobucket.com/albums/aa436/TacticalElitist/IMG_0990.jpg
Sliding the adapter plate into place, its important to mate the adapter fully before using the retaining screw, because the screw is so far forward, if you need to use the screw to seat the adapter, something is wrong.
http://i1197.photobucket.com/albums/aa436/TacticalElitist/IMG_0991.jpg
Adapter fully seated, retaining screw not in place yet.
http://i1197.photobucket.com/albums/aa436/TacticalElitist/IMG_0992.jpg
Ready to go, its a slick package
http://i1197.photobucket.com/albums/aa436/TacticalElitist/IMG_0993.jpg
A poor image of the red dot. Once I get a proper camera, I will fix the focus issue.
http://i1197.photobucket.com/albums/aa436/TacticalElitist/IMG_0994.jpg
Slide out of battery.
http://i1197.photobucket.com/albums/aa436/TacticalElitist/IMG_0995.jpg
Static Zero Hold torture testing. Its almost a shame to test Mark's fine work in this fashion, but its an important step.
http://i1197.photobucket.com/albums/aa436/TacticalElitist/IMG_0996.jpg
Several hard whacks later, no loosening of the adapter plate, zero appears to be right on.


Enjoy.

[goteron]

http://i1197.photobucket.com/albums/aa436/TacticalElitist/IMG_0997.jpg
Secret City Weaponeers K-25 Holster modified only slightly, very comfortable for CCW.
http://i1197.photobucket.com/albums/aa436/TacticalElitist/IMG_0998.jpg
Enjoy.

[jetfire]

Pretty awesome, actually.

Serious question for the guys using an RDS - what are the advantages of having the slide milled to accept the RDS vs. having it mounted in the rear sight dovetail other than getting the dot lower to the bore axis and that they look sexy with the dot set all low on the gun? Are dovetail mounts more likely to lose zero, or are the benefits strictly in getting a lower sight line, etc?

Inquiring minds (that have some optics hopefully on their way) want to know before I have a man with a mill start cutting my slides up.

[ToddG]

Hold two side by side, one with a milled slide and one mounted to the dovetail, and the height above bore difference becomes immediately noticeable.

[goteron]

Hold two side by side, one with a milled slide and one mounted to the dovetail, and the height above bore difference becomes immediately noticeable.

This for sure, not to mention a direct-attach method should yield a stronger attachment. I don't like the dovetail adapters because of the small surface area and long lever arm if you bump it hard (Zero -hold)

[Mark Housel]

This for sure, not to mention a direct-attach method should yield a stronger attachment. I don't like the dovetail adapters because of the small surface area and long lever arm if you bump it hard (Zero -hold)

It was reported on another forum by a member therethat he had issues with the dovetail mount losing zero and being visibly out of position.

Any of the three new Aimpoint mounting methods solves that.

1. ATOM Mount
2. Modified Aimpoint mount
3. Direct mount

[DocGKR]

Dovetail sits too high and does not allow use of BIS; milled slide allows optic dot to co-witness with irons--this is very important. Dovetail mount is weaker--I have seen one dovetail RDS break and others loose zero. Dovetail mount sits taller and makes holster selection even harder.

[jetfire]

Dovetail sits too high and does not allow use of BIS; milled slide allows optic dot to co-witness with irons--this is very important. Dovetail mount is weaker--I have seen one dovetail RDS break and others loose zero. Dovetail mount sits taller and makes holster selection even harder.

Cool, thanks.

[ksxdguy]

Make sure the milling is done with the proper locating bosses milled in for strength. Hope I'm not just stating the obvious.
Jeff
(Former RDS on pistol lover):)

Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk

[DocGKR]

Not sure if it matters--we have pistols with and without the bosses and through thousands of rounds, it has not seemed to make a difference as long as the installation is done well...

[ksxdguy]

Sure haven't seen that many rounds, but that was what I was told by the gunsmith.
Jeff

Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk

[lcarr]

Hold two side by side, one with a milled slide and one mounted to the dovetail, and the height above bore difference becomes immediately noticeable.

But is that important, practically? An Open gun works great, putatively, with a dot WAY above the bore.

[ksxdguy]

Definitely important to me as mine are for concealed carry. Even milled into the slide the mechanical offset is an issue as well. A dovetail mount would negatively affect both of these factors.

Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk

[jetfire]

For me, the attraction of a dovetail mount is not having to hack up the slide of a perfectly good gun for a series of magazine articles. The issue I have with it are the concerns about it losing zero, coming loose, or something like that.

[DocGKR]

For serious use the RDS needs to be milled.

Open guns don't need a BIS.

[ksxdguy]

For me, the attraction of a dovetail mount is not having to hack up the slide of a perfectly good gun for a series of magazine articles. The issue I have with it are the concerns about it losing zero, coming loose, or something like that.

It might depend on the focus of your articles. I just have strong opinions that a defensive gun should have a milled slide. Dovetail mountings just say competition or plinking/fun use. However, after my dismal performance at last weekend's AFHF class with my M&P/Deltapoint, I'm pretty disgusted with the whole concept. If you pursue this, I'll be eagerly looking forward to seeing how someone of your skill level does with the concept. Too bad we don't live close by. You could borrow your pick of three to try out.:)

[DocGKR]

ksxdguy--why did you choose to try a handgun RDS? What were your expectations of the system? How many months had you tried it and what kind of round count? How do your scores with the RDS compare with those shot using irons? How is your accuracy at ranges 25 yds and beyond with an RDS vs. irons? What is the difference when shooting at targets moving laterally and at oblique angles when using an RDS vs. irons? How is the comparison when you are moving and shooting at close targets vs. those beyond 12 yds? Have you noticed any difference in shooting an RDS vs. irons in low light conditions?

As I noted in the other RDS experiment thread (http://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?3563-Rogers-RDS-experiment) I have been involved with RDS handgun trials for a bit over 2 years now. In our experience it takes a lot of dry firing/drawing and thousands of live rounds to become proficient with an RDS. After 2 years, I am still not as quite as fast using the RDS as I was with iron sights, however, I am substantially more accurate with the RDS, especially at longer ranges. Under 12-15 yds irons are faster for me; beyond 15 yds the RDS is tough to beat... Anyone who claims an RDS equipped pistol is as fast as irons is delusional, but pure speed is NOT the only factor in real world shooting incidents. Shooting at moving targets and when moving can prove substantially easier with the RDS. The RDS also offers advantages in reduced light shooting. In addition, the RDS allows the shooter to remain fully focused on the threat and not have to transition back to the front sight prior to firing—this is an incredibly SIGNIFICANT factor in the real world!

Our experience has been that you are doing quite well if a handgun RDS can EQUAL iron sight performance when quickly shooting at 12 yds and closer; the real benefits of the RDS occurs at longer ranges, with movement, and in low light. Quick movement up close under 12 yds or so could pose an issue, just like with rapid static shooting at close range; moving toward and engaging an active shooter in a larger open area such as a school, shopping mall, airport, etc... the RDS appears to offer a substantial advantage in the practice drills I've witnessed.

Bottom line:

-- If you have vision issues, a handgun RDS can be the answer.

-- Likewise, for certain specific operational requirements and mission sets, a handgun mounted RDS is an excellent tool.

If you don't need an RDS, don't use one; on the other hand, those who do, find them quite helpful.

[ksxdguy]

ksxdguy--why did you choose to try a handgun RDS? What were your expectations of the system? How many months had you tried it and what kind of round count? How do your scores with the RDS compare with those shot using irons? How is your accuracy at ranges 25 yds and beyond with an RDS vs. irons? What is the difference when shooting at targets moving laterally and at oblique angles when using an RDS vs. irons? How is the comparison when you are moving and shooting at close targets vs. those beyond 12 yds? Have you noticed any difference in shooting an RDS vs. irons in low light conditions?

As I noted in the other RDS experiment thread (http://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?3563-Rogers-RDS-experiment) I have been involved with RDS handgun trials for a bit over 2 years now. In our experience it takes a lot of dry firing/drawing and thousands of live rounds to become proficient with an RDS. After 2 years, I am still not as quite as fast using the RDS as I was with iron sights, however, I am substantially more accurate with the RDS, especially at longer ranges. Under 12-15 yds irons are faster for me; beyond 15 yds the RDS is tough to beat... Anyone who claims an RDS equipped pistol is as fast as irons is delusional, but pure speed is NOT the only factor in real world shooting incidents. Shooting at moving targets and when moving can prove substantially easier with the RDS. The RDS also offers advantages in reduced light shooting. In addition, the RDS allows the shooter to remain fully focused on the threat and not have to transition back to the front sight prior to firing—this is an incredibly SIGNIFICANT factor in the real world!

Our experience has been that you are doing quite well if a handgun RDS can EQUAL iron sight performance when quickly shooting at 12 yds and closer; the real benefits of the RDS occurs at longer ranges, with movement, and in low light. Quick movement up close under 12 yds or so could pose an issue, just like with rapid static shooting at close range; moving toward and engaging an active shooter in a larger open area such as a school, shopping mall, airport, etc... the RDS appears to offer a substantial advantage in the practice drills I've witnessed.

Bottom line:

-- If you have vision issues, a handgun RDS can be the answer.

-- Likewise, for certain specific operational requirements and mission sets, a handgun mounted RDS is an excellent tool.

If you don't need an RDS, don't use one; on the other hand, those who do, find them quite helpful.

Doc,

Most of your questions were answered in my post on the other RDS thread. Here are some bullet points which sum up my experience.

1. I have not had, nor will have, enough time to train with the system.
2. The RDS is a jealous mistress. I shoot a lot of competition with iron sights. I believe I would have to dedicate myself 100% to the RDS to make it work.
3. My vision is not so bad that I don't see the irons well.
4. I found that the wobble of the gun was distinctly magnified with the RDS. It was very disconcerting.
5. The dot disappeared after every shot through recoil. I couldn't track it at all.
6. You make a lot of good points - one I definitely agree with is accuracy at distance. Even with limited experience with the RDS, there is no comparison.
7. Your bottom line is the key I think. At this point in my life, I just don't "need" an RDS.

Thanks for your interest in my situation!
Jeff

[ToddG]

But is that important, practically? An Open gun works great, putatively, with a dot WAY above the bore.

So does an Aimpoint on an M4... because with no reciprocating movement of the optic and minimal rise during recoil, it's easy to keep aligned and in view. Same is true with an Open gun. Same is not true with a combat-oriented pistol.

[Leozinho]

But is that important, practically? An Open gun works great, putatively, with a dot WAY above the bore.

Some open gun shooters, especially those that are making the transition from Limited/Production, do like having the dot closer to the bore axis. That's why this C-more is mounted sideways.

http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a375/kgunz11/FGW%20Pistol%20Builds/DSC_0522-4.jpg

Photo courtesy of Freedom Gun Works

[ToddG]

http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a375/kgunz11/FGW%20Pistol%20Builds/DSC_0522-4.jpg

That looks like it used to be a pistol once...

[Leozinho]

It was noted that we can't draw too many comparisons between a slide-mounted RDS and an open gun's dot, since one reciprocates with the slide and the other does not. It might be worth noting that some competitors using iron sights believe it's advantageous for even the front sight to not move with the slide. SVI calls this the Sight Tracker. Not sure if they invented it but seem to have popularized it.

(Since I already posted an open gun photo, no reason not to post another game gun. This time a limited pistol.)

http://www.ccgunworks.com/image/26_sighttracker1.jpg Photo courtesy of Matt Cheely CCGunworks.com

I'm just pointing this out to hammer that there's a world of difference between a USPSA open gun and a normally-aspirated Glock with a slide-mounted RDS.

[jstyer]

normally-aspirated Glock

I laughed out loud... LOL?

[ksxdguy]

"ksxdguy--why did you choose to try a handgun RDS? What were your expectations of the system? How many months had you tried it and what kind of round count? How do your scores with the RDS compare with those shot using irons? How is your accuracy at ranges 25 yds and beyond with an RDS vs. irons? What is the difference when shooting at targets moving laterally and at oblique angles when using an RDS vs. irons? How is the comparison when you are moving and shooting at close targets vs. those beyond 12 yds? Have you noticed any difference in shooting an RDS vs. irons in low light conditions?"

Doc, I was re-reading your post and realized I need to do a better job of answering your questions. So here goes:

1. Saw one on the cover of a magazine. It was a "gotta have one" moment.
2. My expectations would be to compensate for poor eyesight, become more accurate at all distances and be faster because of only one sight element to be aware of.
3. Haven't been using the system very long, and round count is only 1200 or so. Most was last weekend at the AFHF class.
4. Right now I am much better with irons.
5. Accuracy at distance was imediately improved.
6. Better with irons when moving.
7. Haven't really shot on the move much past seven yards.
8. I did use the system at a night shoot, but I relied totally on the laser for targeting.

Right now, after reflection, I'm torn between staying with the RDS system and dumping the concept. If I stay, it will be because I still think the concept is viable, I haven't really been with it long, I think my eyesight is an issue and yes, it's a matter of pride in wanting to succeed in something I started.

Jeff

[fuse]

It was noted that we can't draw too many comparisons between a slide-mounted RDS and an open gun's dot, since one reciprocates with the slide and the other does not. It might be worth noting that some competitors using iron sights believe it's advantageous for even the front sight to not move with the slide. SVI calls this the Sight Tracker. Not sure if they invented it but seem to have popularized it.

(Since I already posted an open gun photo, no reason not to post another game gun. This time a limited pistol.)

http://www.ccgunworks.com/image/26_sighttracker1.jpg Photo courtesy of Matt Cheely CCGunworks.com

I'm just pointing this out to hammer that there's a world of difference between a USPSA open gun and a normally-aspirated Glock with a slide-mounted RDS.

Wow. Never knew that about the sight tracker. Thanks for posting.

[goteron]

http://youtu.be/6kTLqdqJwOQ

[goteron]

Unity Tactical is proud to open the Pre-Order list for our Atom Mounting System. It is the most modular and adaptive system for mounting an optic to your pistol available.

This Pre-Order is only for Glocks (To exclude .45’s). We are actively working on the M&P system followed by .45 caliber Glocks.

Initially we will offer adapter plates for the following optics:

• Aimpoint T-1
• Trijicon RMR
• Leupold Deltapoint
• Insight MRDS
• Glock Iron Sight / Blank Adapter

The pre-order list is first come first serve, we hope to keep lead times as short as possible, however an initial rush may be encountered. Once you are on the list you will get an email when your number is up.

You will send your slide(s) to Mark Housel at L&M Precision Gunworks, LLC for the service. L&M will have adapter plates on-hand and will complete all of the services at this shop.

Mark Housel
1621 Spruce Canyon Drive
Prescott, AZ 86303

Mark is well known in the industry for his attention to detail, quick turn-around times, and fair pricing. You will work directly with him to complete your order.

We have established some PRELIMINARY pricing, it is subject to change, but should not fluctuate much if at all.

• Slide Milling with Refinish of Milled Area - $175
• BUIS Dovetail – Optional - $35 – BUIS can only be mounted in front of the optic, not behind.
• Ameriglo Suppressor Height BUIS- Optional - $45
• Adapter Plate of your Choice - $45

Mark also offers a host of other services that will be available at the same time if you are interested.

One note about the BUIS. The BUIS dovetail depth must be reduced slightly as well as the Dovetail depth on the gun. The BUIS that you purchase with this system can only be used on an ATOM equipped gun. You cannot use any other BUIS without modification (Unless you use an Iron Sight Adapters) – This is not our attempt to sell more Iron Sight Adapters, but rather a constraint put on us by the safety plunger channel.

The Pre-Order list is non-binding, You will have 14 days to send your slide in once we send notification. If you do not, we will assume you are no longer interested and bump your spot. Please do not pre-order if you do not intend to have the service completed. It will slow the process down.

Please send an email to: Atom.Preorder@unitytactical.com with the following Information

Subject: Atom Preorder

Name - Required
Email Address – Required – Please include in the body of the email.
Forum Name (If you have one)

Number of Slides you will be sending - Required
Number and Type of Adapters you are interested in – (Again, Non-Binding, but it helps us with ordering enough) - Required

Thank you for your interest, we appreciate your business and look forward to earning more of it in the future. We hope to get a revamped website up in the near future as well as the release of some new products.

Thank you
Trent Zimmer
Unity Tactical LLC

[DocGKR]

For most CONUS CCW and LE duty/carry use, I still prefer the RMR02--works well and good holsters are available for RMR equipped pistols. For a dedicated training pistol, the RMR07 is nice, as the dot can be turned off to practice using the BIS. With the advent of the Unity Tactical mount, the micro-Aimpoint is now a viable and effective option for folks operating in adverse conditions--swimming, surf zone, dusty environments, snow/sleet/heavy rain, etc... Only downside is the lack of duty holsters for pistols with the micro-Aimpoint.

http://www.tridentconcepts.org/alumni/Portals/0/NTForums_Attach/1712504480471.jpg

Note--Initially I liked a larger 6-8 MOA red dot on my slide mounted RDS. However, the more I shoot the handgun RDS, the more I am coming to appreciate a smaller dot. I've started experimenting with the 3.5 MOA dots on my training pistols and are starting to really like them, especially for longer range shooting. I am looking forward to trying a 2 MOA micro-Aimpoint on a Unity Tactical mount in the near future to see how that will do at 50 yds.

Nonetheless, for Duty/CCW pistols, I am still prefering the 8 MOA RMR02, as it works very well for most of my shooting needs.

[lamarbrog]

I think MRDS on pistols is a near-certainty. While it won't deliver the same performance for the top 5%, it will greatly speed up the fundamental task of hitting a target for a huge percentage of the gun-carrying population. Then you'll see techniques change to maximize the benefits and compensate for the deficiencies.

The technology will have to change substantially before the field-of-view issue goes away. Until that happens, those "top 5%" folks will always be faster with irons.

I wouldn't call myself the top 5%, but this is really how I feel.

For someone who is very novice, the red dot sight would likely help them. On the few occasions I have used one they take forever to acquire a sight picture and I really would rather use iron sights.

But, I also can't stand lasers on guns, so maybe I'm just an idiot.

[_JD_]

So is the general consensus that an rds is impossible on a p30 but possible on a p30L? I sent Bowie an email awhile back and never got a response. My eyes are going fast and the drop off in skill is becoming an embarrassment.


Not going to work.
There is a large slot milled into the bottom of the slide opposite the extractor to reduce weight. The slot runs from just behind the breech face all the way to just in front of the rear sight dovetail.
Even milling the rear of the slide down to the rear sight dovetail depth would intrude into that slot starting just in front of where the rear sight dovetail is.
That slot means that one of the RDS mounting screws wouldn't have anything to thread into.
You'd also have to contend with the firing pin plunger safety which is just in front of the rear sight dovetail on the extractor side.
I don't see any way to mill a P30 slide for a RDS.


Bowie has my P30S as we speak, he got done doing Vickers' Hk45 and we got to talking about the P30 while @ TDI and I left mine with him to do the initial planning on.

http://sphotos.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash3/532749_385283958159453_165602106_n.jpg
Vickers' HK45 by Bowie Tactical.

As for the RDS, I'm jumping on the bandwagon, I have a very bad case of cross dominance and the RDS seems to alleviate a great amount of issues I have getting a consistent sight picture at all distances.


As soon as I located one, a G17 will be going to Bowie for the full package. I didn't get to play with the RDS all that much @ TDI but with the limited time I had with it I really liked what it had to offer.

Bowie also inferred that Leupold will be beefing up the Delta Point here shorty.

[DocGKR]

Our first batch of a half-dozen RMR02's is now at over 30 months continuous use on the original batteries...

[GJM]

I am normally a contact lens wearer, but yesterday morning I decided to try out my new Rx insert for my Rudy glasses. To check acuity, I shot an 8 inch steel at 45 yards, because it happened to be up, with my Glock 17 and Warren sights. Initially I wasn't hitting, and felt out of sorts with the Rx insert, but after really working the sights was able to hit about 70 per cent of my shots. For fun, I then grabbed my G17/RMR and shot 10 rounds support hand only, still using the Rx insert -- 9 hits out of 10 shots on the same steel I had to work my hardest, slow fire free style.

[DocGKR]

I have been experimenting with the Unity Tactical ATOM mount on a G19 for the past several weeks.

http://www.tridentconcepts.org/alumni/Portals/0/NTForums_Attach/177212630171.jpg

It now has about 1000 rounds through it using an RMR02. The pistol has worked flawlessly without any issues. There is no difference shooting the RMR on the Atom mount vs. my standard RMR equipped G19's. Placement of the BIS in front or behind the RDS is irrelevant during shooting, although it can effect holster compatibility.

The G19 w/ATOM mount fits into all my normal CCW holsters, including Fricke Seraphim and Gideon Elite for RDS, as well as the Alessi DOJ Open Port, Comp Tac belt holster, and slightly modified CCC Loopers and RCS Phantoms. Unfortunately, the front mounted BIS prevents the G19 w/ATOM mount from fitting into any of the duty holsters we have on hand, including the superb Safariland ALS 6354DO and modified SLS holsters like the 6004. I am told that the 6354DO can be easily modified to accept the forward BIS, but have not yet tried this. The G19 w/Atom mount does work fine with the Fricke Eleazar MOLLE compatibleholster.

The significant advantage of the Unity ATOM mount is the ability to switch optics. We are now going to swap the Atom mount for the RMR to one for the micro-Aimpoint. I'll post back the results after we get 1000 or so rounds through the pistol using an H1.

[Failure2Stop]

I just spent a few hours shooting a buddy's G17 w/ a 4 MOA T1.
Slide action was a bit sluggish and bouncy, assumedly due to the greater mass of the T1.
I had to fight the urge to ambush the trigger as I noticed wobble a lot more than when using a traditional front sight focus at 25 and 50 yards.
I also found myself slowly raising the gun so the dot kept creeping toward 6:00, I am attributing this to the higher line of sight through the T1 than with irons, which I have been using for a pretty significant amount of time.
Overall, I had less eye fatigue than I usually do when shooting for precision at distance, which was nice.
The narrow field of view through the T1 made presentations noticably slower than usual, but I think that's to be expected when making such a drastic change to sighting device.
My buddy went with the T1 over the RMR due to some user complaints (which I haven't really been aware of) about the overall durability of the RMR in some conditions. I am noting this only to preempt the inevitable "why" of the T1.

[Odin Bravo One]

Jack,

next time you pass through, pick up my G34 with the DeltaPoint RDS.

Go beat it up for a bit. I'll come get it back eventually, but no rush.

Worth putting through it's paces.

[orionz06]

Jack,

next time you pass through, pick up my G34 with the DeltaPoint RDS.

Go beat it up for a bit. I'll come get it back eventually, but no rush.

Worth putting through it's paces.

Yes Jack, do this before the end of the month.

[_JD_]

Bowie has my P30S as we speak, he got done doing Vickers' Hk45 and we got to talking about the P30 while @ TDI and I left mine with him to do the initial planning on.

http://sphotos.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash3/532749_385283958159453_165602106_n.jpg
Vickers' HK45 by Bowie Tactical.

As for the RDS, I'm jumping on the bandwagon, I have a very bad case of cross dominance and the RDS seems to alleviate a great amount of issues I have getting a consistent sight picture at all distances.


As soon as I located one, a G17 will be going to Bowie for the full package. I didn't get to play with the RDS all that much @ TDI but with the limited time I had with it I really liked what it had to offer.



Here it is
http://i146.photobucket.com/albums/r259/jdlv4_0/241834_450904494930732_1750469080_o.jpg






Sent via Tapatalk, and still using real words.

[DocGKR]

My new M&P9 and G19 both arrived back yesterday after getting RDS mounted and I was able to get down to the range for an hour, right before sunset to quickly sight in both of them. Mark Housel placed a 6.5 MOA RMR07 on the M&P9, while the G19 is sporting a 4 MOA H1 in a Unity Tactical ATOM mount; both have Ameriglow suppressor height BIS. Both have stock OEM barrels. The M&P9 has the Apex Duty Kit, the Glock an OEM "-" connector with stock trigger return spring; I strongly prefer the M&P trigger "feel".

http://www.10-8forums.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php?ubb=download&Number=7954&filename=G19H1ATOM.jpg

http://www.10-8forums.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php?ubb=download&Number=7955&filename=M&P9RMR07.jpg

http://www.10-8forums.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php?ubb=download&Number=7956&filename=M&P9RMR_G19H1.jpg

At 25 yds using Federal 147 gr FMJ AE9FP training ammo, both pistols shot EXACTLY the same score on an NRA B8 bull when shot freehand, as shown on the targets below.

G19:
http://www.10-8forums.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php?ubb=download&Number=7957&filename=G19%20H1%2025%20yd.jpg

M&P9
http://www.10-8forums.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php?ubb=download&Number=7958&filename=M&P9%20RMR%2025%20yd.jpg

[JBP55]

Good shooting, I would compare an Apex kit to a Vanek trigger.

[Ed L]

Very nice shooting, Doc.

[Mark Housel]

Nice targets. :)

Yeah, and since you put all those hole so close together you have plenty of other places to re-use them later on! ;);)

[WilsonCombatRep]

I think MRDS on pistols is a near-certainty. While it won't deliver the same performance for the top 5%, it will greatly speed up the fundamental task of hitting a target for a huge percentage of the gun-carrying population. Then you'll see techniques change to maximize the benefits and compensate for the deficiencies.

The technology will have to change substantially before the field-of-view issue goes away. Until that happens, those "top 5%" folks will always be faster with irons.

Spot on.

[DocGKR]

For me, the micro-Aimpoints have less "field-of-view issues" than the RMR's, have a brighter dot, and are more robust; however the RMR's have a much less distorted and crisper dot, are lower profile, and fit more holsters.

[GJM]

For me, the micro-Aimpoints have less "field-of-view issues" than the RMR's, have a brighter dot, and are more robust; however the RMR's have a much less distorted and crisper dot, are lower profile, and fit more holsters.

Doc, a few follow-up questions. An issue with the RDS on a handgun is quickly acquiring the dot one handed, and from weird positions -- is the T1/H1 an advantage in that regard? Do you have a photo of carrying the T1 concealed, and will it fit in something like the Fricke AIWB for the RMR? Since you need to adjust the brightness of the Aimpoint, what considerations are there in changing light conditions as to how you set the intensity of the T1?

[DocGKR]

We continue to like the non-adjustable RMR's (RMR01/RMR02), as these have held up very well over the past 30+ months of daily suburban/urban use and have demonstrated a long battery life. We can make the Safariland SLS 6004 holsters work with RMR pistols and the Safariland ALS 6454DO has proven to be a great duty retention holster for Glock pistols equipped with RMR's.

Unfortunately, the adjustable RMR's (RMR06/RMR07) have been burning up batteries and we have had half-a-dozen stop working in the past 8 months. We have seen a couple of the newer ones with wandering windage--typically moving 8-10 clicks clockwise over a few hundred rounds of shooting. Painting some witness marks quickly allows you to see if it has occurred. Nail polish can also be used to lock the windage screw down. Trijicon is definitely aware of the issue and has rapidly fixed the RMR's when sent in for repair. Because of these nagging problems, the adjustable RMR's used on handguns here are currently just being used for training, not carry.

Hopefully the Trij engineers will develop a potential fix for these issues, but only time will tell. I'd also like to see an enclosed RMR, so crap won't get in and block the emmitter diode. I definitely want the RMR to improve and succeed. The critical question that has yet to be answered is how Trijicon is going to handle this"; as recently stated by a very experienced individual, "is Trijicon going to be a an Aimpoint or an EO-Tech"???

As a result, we are taking a harder look at the micro-Aimpoints (H1/T1), especially now that the Unity ATOM system offers a great mounting solution. Off-duty/CCW holsters that work with the ATOM mounted micro-Aimpoint are abundant--Alessi Open Port DOJ and Comp-Tac Belt work, as do lightly modified CCC Looper, RCS Phantom, and my favorite Fricke Seraphim and Gideon. The biggest problem is getting duty retention holsters that will work with the micro-Aimpoints. The SLS/6004 type holsters are a no go. We have been able to modify the 6354DO holsters to work with the ATOM mounted H1/T1's, but it takes quite a bit of Dremel work.

For me, the micro-Aimpoints seem to have less "field-of-view issues" than the RMR's, have a brighter dot, and are more robust; however the RMR's have a much less distorted and crisper dot, are lower profile, and fit more holsters. I usually turn my H1 to "9" and leave it there--every once in a while I have noted the adjustment getting altered, usually to a brighter setting when I bump the side wheel on the draw. We had more problems with adjustable RMR's getting inadvertently dimmed when the outside RH button was unexpectedly pressed (often by the seat belt buckle). The newer holsters that protect the sides of the RMR-A's tend to mitigate this issue.

[DocGKR]

Like David Bowie and Doug Holloway, Mark Housel has been doing innovative work on mounting mini RDS on pistols. Here is some Mark Housel old school pistol RMR goodness:

http://www.10-8forums.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php?ubb=download&Number=7966&filename=SA%20LW%201911%20RMR.jpg

http://www.10-8forums.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php?ubb=download&Number=7967&filename=M1911A1%20RMR.jpg

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo324/taadski/image-2.jpg

[JHC]

Doc, is that 2nd 1911 - the retro 1911A1 format your gun? IMO that is about perfect. I've always preferred and done my best 1911 shooting with the curved MSH and short GI trigger. That is quite the blend of old and new.

[DocGKR]

Both 1911's are mine.

[Cacafuego]

Mark Housel placed a 6.5 MOA RMR07 on the M&P9, while the G19 is sporting a 4 MOA H1 in a Unity Tactical ATOM mount; both have Ameriglow suppressor height BIS.

Hmm. I called Bowie Tactical two or three months ago and was told that no suppressor-height sights existed for the M&P. Is this a new product, or was I misled?

[DocGKR]

There are no suppressor height sights that specifically fit the M&P dovetale. Note that Mark Housel did make custom M&P suppressor height sites for my M&P45's--so it can be done, however most installations now just cut a new dovetale and fit Glock suppressor height sights.

http://www.10-8forums.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php?ubb=download&Number=7946&filename=M&P40%20RMR%20web.jpg

[Odin Bravo One]

The big issue I find with the RDS equipped pistol is the suppressor sights and holster compatibility. A lot of the issues with the RD sights that I expected haven't really shown themselves, and they have proved me wrong on countless occasions. Still holding me back from converting other guns is the BUIS's that won't fit my COTS holsters.

[_JD_]

There are no suppressor height sights that specifically fit the M&P dovetale. Note that Mark Housel did make custom M&P suppressor height sites for my M&P45's--so it can be done, however most installations now just cut a new dovetale and fit Glock suppressor height sights.



I think I read somewhere that 10-8 may be working on some. They just received a M&P milled for a RMR.

Sent via Tapatalk, and still using real words.

[_JD_]

There are no suppressor height sights that specifically fit the M&P dovetale. Note that Mark Housel did make custom M&P suppressor height sites for my M&P45's--so it can be done, however most installations now just cut a new dovetale and fit Glock suppressor height sights.




I think I read somewhere that 10-8 may be working on some. They just received a M&P milled for a RMR.

Sent via Tapatalk, and still using real words.







http://sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-prn1/523422_459529674080288_503116148_n.jpg
10-8 Performance (http://www.facebook.com/108Performance) Right now, those are Ameriglo sights as that is what was available with the package. They will be replaced very soon with our own prototype suppressor height sights.