Interesting open carry experience today

[GJM]

I headed over from UT to Grand Junction this morning, to meet PF member, Taadski, at the local USPSA match. Ahead of schedule, I stopped into Starbucks for a breakfast sandwich and latte, and to check on the latest on PF, on my iPad.

I got my stuff, and took a seat, back to the wall, across from the main counter, about center of the location. A few minutes later, I saw some green 5.11 pants headed in, looked up and saw a brown, military style sweater, earth tone hat, a Glock 17/22 sized pistol in a non-retention paddle style holster worn just ahead of the hip, no extra magazine, and no visible LE identification. I couldn't remember CO's law on open carry, the Starbucks policy, but was intently interested in what was happening. Guy went to the counter and ordered a coffee, back to me. I could have taken his pistol without much effort. After ordering, he moved down the counter to wait for his coffee, arms folded, and generally looked in condition "white."

This was interesting after my FOF exercises at Gunsite a week ago. I decided if he was going to rob the place, I would let him, since I wouldn't want an employee or customer getting injured over some of Starbucks' money. I also decided if he started trying to harm individuals, I would act without any verbal requests. After continuing to wait, head down and arms folded, he got his coffee and left.

I just can not fathom what would cause someone to open carry in a Starbucks, in a thickly settled place like Grand Junction, with a pistol in a non-retention holster. By contrast, I won't even wear a garment with a gun name on it, off the range or outside my home. If he were a bad guy, he made himself into a target. If he was a good guy, he made himself a target. Not sure anyone else noticed his Glock, but if they did, surely was not a positive impression for gun owners.

[Luke]

I argued with a guy today that open carry with no retention was dumb and he insisted his kydex holster (on a RTI, sticking out from the body) was plenty safe with just kydex holding it. We then cleared it and made it safe and played "snatch the pistol".. I won every time. Crazy easy to get a gun without them ever seeing you. He still wasn't convinced and said I was a gun guy and "knew how holsters work"?

I don't open carry, and if I did it would be a hooded holster.

[Kyle Reese]

At least it wasn't an XD in an Uncle Mike's sausage sack.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[GJM]

I argued with a guy today that open carry with no retention was dumb and he insisted his kydex holster (on a RTI, sticking out from the body) was plenty safe with just kydex holding it. We then cleared it and made it safe and played "snatch the pistol".. I won every time. Crazy easy to get a gun without them ever seeing you. He still wasn't convinced and said I was a gun guy and "knew how holsters work"?

They make blue guns.....

[dookie1481]

I got my stuff, and took a seat, back to the wall, across from the main counter, about center of the location.

Good thing you made that clear else you would have lost PF cred. If you go -300 you get kicked off the forum.

[MVS]

Sounds like a pretty typical Indiana OC experience, except there you are just as likely to have the gun being carried in a drop leg holster.

[Clay1]

This is probably a no win situation post, but here goes. While open carry is legal in my state and I will support your right to open carry, it's not what I choose for myself. I don't wish to draw the glances from people that look at you as if you are a baby killer or the section of society that would try to just take my gun from me or from other pro gun guys that think that I am doing it wrong.

I don't like loud clothes and prefer the gray man approach. I want to be inconsequential as I walk down the street. Nothing going on here - move on.

In my area, I believe that most open carry proponents are trying to make a political statement. My interpretation of this statement goes something like this: "I have a right to carry legally and the more people that see me carry legally, people should get use to it and accept it" I don't disagree with that thought pattern and maybe if thousands upon thousands opened carried every day people would get use to it.

As I see it, people hear more about evil men with guns than they see responsible open carry participants. I don't think Joe public is going to change on this any time soon. I believe it is a risky behavior for myself and my family so I will personally try to remain gray and low key. If you want to open carry that's your personal choice not everyone has to share my thought process on this.

[peterb]

I argued with a guy today that open carry with no retention was dumb and he insisted his kydex holster (on a RTI, sticking out from the body) was plenty safe with just kydex holding it. We then cleared it and made it safe and played "snatch the pistol".. I won every time. Crazy easy to get a gun without them ever seeing you. He still wasn't convinced and said I was a gun guy and "knew how holsters work"?

I don't open carry, and if I did it would be a hooded holster.

I have a hard time coming up with reasons for NOT having retention on an OWB holster. Around here I'm more worried about grabby brush than grabby people, but I like knowing that if I have to run/jump/bend I don't have to worry (much) about my gun staying in place.

[LittleLebowski]

I really cannot see the reason not to use a Safariland GLS (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00KYNUHW4/ref=as_li_qf_sp_asin_il_tl?ie=UTF8&camp=1789&creative=9325&creativeASIN=B00KYNUHW4&linkCode=as2&tag=ratio07-20) for Open Carry. They are cheap, comfortable,work well, fast on the draw, and miles better than DERPA/Blackhawk!

I reviewed one here (http://www.gunnuts.net/2014/08/25/safariland-5377-gls-outside-waist-band-holster-review/).

[TR675]

In my area, I believe that most open carry proponents are trying to make a political statement.

Oc'ers in built up urban and semi-urban areas are always making a statement, and 99% of the time that statement is "I'm an asshole."

[OnionsAndDragons]

Sounds like a pretty typical Indiana OC experience, except there you are just as likely to have the gun being carried in a drop leg holster.

Story checks out.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[BJXDS]

I headed over from UT to Grand Junction this morning, to meet PF member, Taadski, at the local USPSA match. Ahead of schedule, I stopped into Starbucks for a breakfast sandwich and latte, and to check on the latest on PF, on my iPad.

I got my stuff, and took a seat, back to the wall, across from the main counter, about center of the location. A few minutes later, I saw some green 5.11 pants headed in, looked up and saw a brown, military style sweater, earth tone hat, a Glock 17/22 sized pistol in a non-retention paddle style holster worn just ahead of the hip, no extra magazine, and no visible LE identification. I couldn't remember CO's law on open carry, the Starbucks policy, but was intently interested in what was happening. Guy went to the counter and ordered a coffee, back to me. I could have taken his pistol without much effort. After ordering, he moved down the counter to wait for his coffee, arms folded, and generally looked in condition "white."

This was interesting after my FOF exercises at Gunsite a week ago. I decided if he was going to rob the place, I would let him, since I wouldn't want an employee or customer getting injured over some of Starbucks' money. I also decided if he started trying to harm individuals, I would act without any verbal requests. After continuing to wait, head down and arms folded, he got his coffee and left.

I just can not fathom what would cause someone to open carry in a Starbucks, in a thickly settled place like Grand Junction, with a pistol in a non-retention holster. By contrast, I won't even wear a garment with a gun name on it, off the range or outside my home. If he were a bad guy, he made himself into a target. If he was a good guy, he made himself a target. Not sure anyone else noticed his Glock, but if they did, surely was not a positive impression for gun owners.

Interesting indeed, Did you find out if open carry is legal there? Sounds like he may have just wanted to do it because he could, but who knows.

For some reason, I have been seeing more people open carry in VA, most non retention holsters. The most interesting was at a yard sale, open carry IWB with shirt stuffed behind it. Also most of the open carry people I see seem to put themselves in a position where it would be very easy for another to get the gun if they wanted to. The look as if they have no clue as to who or what is going on around them.

[Wendell]

...I just can not fathom what would cause someone to open carry in a Starbucks, in a thickly settled place like Grand Junction, with a pistol in a non-retention holster. By contrast, I won't even wear a garment with a gun name on it, off the range or outside my home. If he were a bad guy, he made himself into a target. If he was a good guy, he made himself a target. Not sure anyone else noticed his Glock, but if they did, surely was not a positive impression for gun owners.

You seem to regard his performance as a failure, and your own as a success. I'm going out on a limb here, but I'll venture a guess that your motivations for being the grey man are different than his motivations for doing the exact opposite. Your choice, the grey man, works for you. His performance might work for him; it was/is a failure only if it failed to achieve whatever it is that he has set out to do.

[Totem Polar]

^^^If carrying a gun safely in public is a goal, then it can be argued that standing around, half asleep with arms folded, sporting a zero-retention OC rig falls short of the goal. JMO.

[LittleLebowski]

You seem to regard his performance as a failure, and your own as a success. I'm going out on a limb here, but I'll venture a guess that your motivations for being the grey man are different than his motivations for doing the exact opposite. Your choice, the grey man, works for you. His performance might work for him; it was/is a failure only if it failed to achieve whatever it is that he has set out to do.

"Performance" is exactly what this guy was about, I have no doubt.

[GJM]

You seem to regard his performance as a failure, and your own as a success. I'm going out on a limb here, but I'll venture a guess that your motivations for being the grey man are different than his motivations for doing the exact opposite. Your choice, the grey man, works for you. His performance might work for him; it was/is a failure only if it failed to achieve whatever it is that he has set out to do.


"Performance" is exactly what this guy was about, I have no doubt.

My "performance" was a complete success, as I got my latte and breakfast sandwich, and still was early to my USPSA match. I have no interest in being a "grey man." I absolutely do have an interest in others not being aware I am armed.

Not sure what he was trying to accomplish? If it was to represent responsible gun owners, it was a fail. If it was to be a criminal, again a fail. If it was to enhance his safety by carrying, a fail. In fairness, though, he did manage to get his coffee.

[LittleLebowski]

My "performance" was a complete success, as I got my latte and breakfast sandwich, and still was early to my USPSA match. I have no interest in being a "grey man." I absolutely do have an interest in others not being aware I am armed.

Not sure what he was trying to accomplish? If it was to represent responsible gun owners, it was a fail. If it was to be a criminal, again a fail. If it was to enhance his safety by carrying, a fail. In fairness, though, he did manage to get his coffee.

I believe that many of these "activists" are in search of a lawsuit and taxpayer money.

[Totem Polar]

In fairness, though, he did manage to get his coffee.

There it is. No effort is ever entirely in vain. :D

[SecondsCount]

Yay!!! Another open carry thread! :rolleyes:

[Glenn E. Meyer]

I'm waiting for open carry on a crowded subway. And, yes - another open carry thread. How about what gun should I buy for my girl friend?

Open carrying in Starbucks for tactical reasons is like dating an inflatable woman for a real relationship.

[USAF422]

Went to the bathroom in Walmart today and was greeted with the barrel of a Glock pointed at me. The gentleman at the urinal was carrying his Glock 30 open without a holster. Having to use the urinal he took the loose Glock from his waistband and placed it under his armpit to facilitate unbuttoning his pants. After he was done he tucked his polo back in and placed the Glock in his pants. He must of thought I was creeping on him as I stood there in amazement.

[Kyle Reese]

Went to the bathroom in Walmart today and was greeted with the barrel of a Glock pointed at me. The gentleman at the urinal was carrying his Glock 30 open without a holster. Having to use the urinal he took the loose Glock from his waistband and placed it under his armpit to facilitate unbuttoning his pants. After he was done he tucked his polo back in and placed the Glock in his pants. He must of thought I was creeping on him as I stood there in amazement.

(Not referring to you, USAF422)

4080

[Glenn E. Meyer]

My God! However, I don't want to get close enough to someone in the men's room to identify their Glock's size.

What an idiot.

[JR1572]

A guy showed up OC'ing at the restaurant I work an off duty security assignment at. He had a Glock in a Safariland ALS holster. We both behaved ourselves.

JR1572

[GardoneVT]

If its easier for a bystander to draw your gun then the owner, the owner isn't squared away.

[Totem Polar]

Open carrying in Starbucks for tactical reasons is like dating an inflatable woman for a real relationship.
I'm probably going to step in it with this one, but I can't pass up the straight line. Mods, feel free to delete if I'm over the line:

A guy goes in an adult store and asks for an inflatable love doll.

The guy behind the counter says, "Male or female?"

The customer says, "Female"

The counter guy asks, "Black or white?"

The customer says, "White"

The counter guy asks, "Christian or Fanatical Jihadist Muslim?"

The customer says, "What the hell does religion have to do with it?"

The counter guy says, "The Jihadi one blows itself up..."

[Alembic]

I just can not fathom what would cause someone to open carry in a Starbucks, in a thickly settled place like Grand Junction, with a pistol in a non-retention holster.

Just to play the devil's advocate, I would like to ponder a different perspective.

I think we can acknowledge that this site and even AR.com etc is composed of gun people. Not always experts, but at least, most who read about guns on the internet know what a retention holster is. I would propose that most of America's gun fearing public is so unfamiliar with guns that they have no idea what a retention holster is. A large portion of American citizens don't know the difference between a revolver and a semi automatic pistol.

We all know cars kill more people every year than guns. However, one could say, because the general public is so familiar with cars, we ignore that fact that we are much more likely to die in a car than from gun fire.

With these thoughts in mind I would suggest the open carry people feel they are presenting the general public an opportunity to become familiar with guns in, what they think is a controlled, non-threatening environment. I'm not saying it's the best way, or agree with it as a way to educate the general public. But it's their right, at least in Colorado, and from a simplistic standpoint, let's imagine if the only time I have ever seen a gun in person, is on a hip at Starbucks, and it becomes a regular thing, well maybe I will over time, conclude guns aren't evil incarnate. Possible?

Am I an advocate of Open Carry, no, not at all.

P.S. Grand Junction has a huge meth problem...

[GardoneVT]

Possible?

Not likely.
If someone is predisposed to dislike guns , seeing one holstered on a walking beard wearing a "Don't Tread On Me" shirt is a cause for alarm, not acceptance.

If a person is squared away and carrying concealed or open itll be a non-event. Which by definition means no positive marketing takes place.

[Beat Trash]

Went to the bathroom in Walmart today and was greeted with the barrel of a Glock pointed at me. The gentleman at the urinal was carrying his Glock 30 open without a holster. Having to use the urinal he took the loose Glock from his waistband and placed it under his armpit to facilitate unbuttoning his pants. After he was done he tucked his polo back in and placed the Glock in his pants. He must of thought I was creeping on him as I stood there in amazement.

Your first problem was going to Walmart...

[GardoneVT]

Your first problem was going to Walmart...

As opposed to a Target ?

[Kyle Reese]

Amazon Prime FTW

[Peally]

The Walmart in my area is actually pretty nice (and so is the Target). The Walmarts in town have made records for thefts in the country however.

[Glenn E. Meyer]

The local WM near me has added a prominently patrolling off-duty but uniformed LEO. Interestingly, the upscale HEB in what passes for Jewish area in San Antonio added one also. I asked him why and he said it was the world situation.

[ReverendMeat]

The Walmart in my area is actually pretty nice (and so is the Target). The Walmarts in town have made records for thefts in the country however.

Don't know which town you're referring to obviously, but the Wal Mart in Milwaukee on Capitol is hands down the worst one I've ever been to. If there's a better one close by let me know

[Peally]

Green Bay - DePere. It's a definite exception to the rule, the rest of the Green Bay ones are the usual crap. Milwaukee is a warzone regardless ;)

[Chuck Haggard]

I really cannot see the reason not to use a Safariland GLS (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00KYNUHW4/ref=as_li_qf_sp_asin_il_tl?ie=UTF8&camp=1789&creative=9325&creativeASIN=B00KYNUHW4&linkCode=as2&tag=ratio07-20) for Open Carry. They are cheap, comfortable,work well, fast on the draw, and miles better than DERPA/Blackhawk!

I reviewed one here (http://www.gunnuts.net/2014/08/25/safariland-5377-gls-outside-waist-band-holster-review/).

I can, because ALS.................:D

[Kimura]

I can, because ALS.................:D

Not to interfere with the OC discussion; but... I love the ALS holster. Fast and secure. It's a hard combination to beat. It would be the only holster I owned if they made one that was actually concealable. Ok, back to your regularly scheduled debate/discussion.

[Alembic]

Not to interfere with the OC discussion;.

Yes, please. Let's go back to debating the best place to shop.

[ragnar_d]

I really cannot see the reason not to use a Safariland GLS (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00KYNUHW4/ref=as_li_qf_sp_asin_il_tl?ie=UTF8&camp=1789&creative=9325&creativeASIN=B00KYNUHW4&linkCode=as2&tag=ratio07-20) for Open Carry. They are cheap, comfortable,work well, fast on the draw, and miles better than DERPA/Blackhawk!

I reviewed one here (http://www.gunnuts.net/2014/08/25/safariland-5377-gls-outside-waist-band-holster-review/).
That was the reason why I went to a 6378/6377 ALS for a 2-Gun/3-Gun holster. When I went to the multigun stuff, I was worried about the gun bouncing out when running with it (vs. USPSA where the holster just seemed to be something to carry the gun from stage to stage and almost all your movement on the stage was with gun in hand).

I ended up buying one for every gun I carried (G17/19/34, with and without lights) because of their usefulness.

[GNRPowdeR]

Sounds like a pretty typical Indiana OC experience, except there you are just as likely to have the gun being carried in a drop leg holster.

Most of IN OC that I've seen hasn't been that well equipped... :rolleyes:

[GNRPowdeR]

Went to the bathroom in Walmart today and was greeted with the barrel of a Glock pointed at me. The gentleman at the urinal was carrying his Glock 30 open without a holster. Having to use the urinal he took the loose Glock from his waistband and placed it under his armpit to facilitate unbuttoning his pants. After he was done he tucked his polo back in and placed the Glock in his pants. He must of thought I was creeping on him as I stood there in amazement.

4089

[jondoe297]

At least it wasn't an XD in an Uncle Mike's sausage sack.




I can see we've bumped into the same people.

[Lyonsgrid]

Wal-Mart open carry guy yesterday....all kinds of wrong....and I don't mean the outfit.

4989

[JM Campbell]

Wal-Mart open carry guy yesterday....all kinds of wrong....and I don't mean the outfit.

4989
Psst that's Gucci-flage. He has his drone on over watch and just checking his real time feed and adjusting support fire options on the drones on board weapons system. While on Bluetooth call with Delta Team 22 discussing GJMs choice of 100yd zero of 110gr 300blk.
[emoji41]

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-N900A using Tapatalk

[Tamara]

Wal-Mart open carry guy yesterday...

Running a special on free guns at Wally World, I see.

[Hambo]

Wal-Mart open carry guy yesterday....all kinds of wrong....and I don't mean the outfit.


If you're going to wander around with your head up your ass and provide an accessible firearm to any would be strongarm robber, you could at least dress like a harder target.

[ragnar_d]

Ye flipping gods . . . that guy could be a textbook example of what not to do when carrying.

[Lester Polfus]

I'm trying to think of anything else he could do wrong.

Was he drunk? I guess that would be worse...

[olstyn]

You mean that's not what people mean when they talk about "pocket carry?" :)

[vcdgrips]

I like the color of the pants a lot but I can never keep a sweater that light in color-clean. I would also never wear those pants before Easter or after Labor day here in KC.
YMMV

[JodyH]

You guys got it all wrong... only a true bad ass would wear that outfit while carrying like that.
Obvious trap is obvious.

[Drang]

To paraphrase that great thinker Hoban Washburne
A man walks into Walmart in that outfit, people know he's not afraid of anything.

[Trigger]

He loses the element of surprise by displaying open carry. He regains the element of shock/surprise due to his atrocious taste in fashion. Net result is a wash.

[LSP972]

He regains the element of shock/surprise due to his atrocious taste in fashion. Net result is a wash.

Dunno, he looks like a typical yuppie we see around here.

I'm with Jody… he's bait.

.

[Mr_White]

Bait for what, old ladies that want to rob his pastel clothes?

[psalms144.1]

I was grabbing a quick cup-a Joe at a local Starbucks last weekend, waiting to run the range for some reservists at the local PD range. As I was approaching the door, a uniformed female police officer walked up, got in line, ordered a coffee, paid, and wandered off without ever ONCE taking her eyes off the screen of her "smart phone," texting and giggling at whatever she was reading. The only time she broke her eyes off the phone was to hold it up to the Starbucks scanner to pay.

If I was a threat looking to kill a cop, she would have been dead somewhere between the "LMAO" and "OMG" texts...

For the LIFE OF ME, I can't figure out why ANYONE who doesn't have to open carry (uniformed police) would every choose to do so...

[Glenn E. Meyer]

I think we have folks who want to posture or are naive.

The posture folks have a touch of Dunning-Kruger from what I've read on the web. They tout their retention skills and spider-sense alertness such that you couldn't take their gun away from them.

They postulate that someone will walk up to them frontally and announced - My, I am going to take your gun.

Then their lightning fast draw or martial arts skills will carry the day. No conceptualization of a surprise as they are in Condition Blaze Orange at all times.

If you say that between 10 and 30% of police shot are shot with their own gun (what's the correct figure, I've seen both?) - well, you know that police are as good as they are.

No conceptualization of the grab might start with a knife attack, rock to the noggin or actually being shot. What if they land on the ground? We had a SWAT officer killed with his own gun when he got into it on the ground with a burglar at a complex right near us. My wife doesn't want to go down that street.

They also have taken in the mantra that criminals are cowards and will fear them.

[LSP972]

Bait for what, old ladies that want to rob his pastel clothes?

Or meat-eaters; the same type of guys who drive through the hood dressed like that, in a seized Beemer, asking the locals "Where's the health club?"

.

[Trooper224]

Nice use of pastels. Maybe he's going for a 21st century Sonny Crockett look.

[Peally]

Wal-Mart open carry guy yesterday....all kinds of wrong....and I don't mean the outfit.

4989

The photo in the dictionary next to the entry "dumbass"

[Hambo]

Bait for what, old ladies that want to rob his pastel clothes?

Probably not for little old ladies, bro.

[Glenn E. Meyer]

We are starting to see 30.07 signs appearing in TX. Lots of reports at the HEB supermarket chain. Thankfully, no 30.06s with it. If the law had allowed one sign to ban all carry, it would have been a disaster for CHL. Luckily, the smart folks at TSRA, etc. avoided that. OC had the potential to negate the CHL progress.

Some folks say now they will BOYCOTT HEB - that's a fart in the whirlwind.

[LSP552]

For the LIFE OF ME, I can't figure out why ANYONE who doesn't have to open carry (uniformed police) would every choose to do so...

Completely agree, outside of a woods/hiking/outdoor/fishing environment. Even then, I'm as just as likely carrying concealed. Common sense and appropriateness seems lost on some of these folks. And like Glenn says below, OC in urban environments has the serious potential to cause serious harm to CCW acceptance.

[Glenn E. Meyer]

That's the truth. A non-committed person sees a goober with a 'tactical' rig strolling through the market - well, didn't the San Bernadino folks show up 'tactical'?

Great PR moments.

[HCM]

Completely agree, outside of a woods/hiking/outdoor/fishing environment. Even then, I'm as just as likely carrying concealed. Common sense and appropriateness seems lost on some of these folks. And like Glenn says below, OC in urban environments has the serious potential to cause serious harm to CCW acceptance.

Completely agree with this ^^^^.

One of the big issues with urban OC here in TX is many of its biggest proponents are people who while not prohibited persons, and legally able to own firearms, are ineligible for a TX CHL due to misdemeanor convictions resulting from poor life choices. I wonder how many of them will continue to OC without the new LTC? I think this will be the biggest source of problems.

[1slow]

Open carry is tactically unsound. Hard to watch 6 unless you always have a team. Gives up the element of surprise.
Story to illustrate this point. About 1976 I was present at this discussion. 2 guys call them 1 and 2. 1 has a new Gerber boot knife. 2 admires it and suggests that he conceal it if 1 is going to carry it. 1 asks why ? 2 says " I have been places where someone would take you out to take it from you. I knew 2 well and he was a good but hard guy and had been places where knives etc... had been used.

[Glenn E. Meyer]

An unintended consequence - I saw some new 'ghost busters' signs around town (that's a red circle with something crossed out). They don't have force of law but maybe the business thinks that will fool some gun folks or make antigun folks more secure.

Of course, if Pro-gun OsCar asks about it and they say they don't want guns - you have be notified and banned f