Bronze Star combat dog Mike shot dead by bicyclist in Wyoming

[GJM]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3277028/Bronze-Star-combat-dog-Mike-shot-dead-bicyclist-Wyoming.html

[orionz06]

Yeah, this is gonna get messy and people will be at each other quickly.

[HCM]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3277028/Bronze-Star-combat-dog-Mike-shot-dead-bicyclist-Wyoming.html

I do have one question from the story.The end of the story says Bessler found Mike after returning from his hunting trip.so did Bessler just find him laying there or did the bicyclist call and report this to the sheriffs office?I would think if you shot a domestic animal in self-defense you would call the police and report it. If not I would be suspicious.

[TGS]

I do have one question from the story.The end of the story says Bessler found Mike after returning from his hunting trip.so did Bessler just find him laying there or did the bicyclist call and report this to the sheriffs office?I would think if you shot a domestic animal in self-defense you would call the police and report it. If not I would be suspicious.

This is a good point, and probably worth looking into. Even if it were a feral/stray animal, I would think you'd still call the animal control department to report it. They usually like to keep track of such things.

Some other things that come to mind:

1) That whole "accept and seek responsibility" leadership tenet. It was his dog, and he left it unsupervised. This sucks all around, but he bears responsibility for this.

2) He's out of line to make the claim that the dog wasn't behaving aggressively, being he wasn't there to qualify that claim. That hurts his credibility in my eyes, as it comes off the same as the baby mommas who scream, "He didndonuthin! He would never shoot someone!" as she's standing over her dead son's body still clutching a pistol.

Shame for the dog. He still deserves a proper burial and sendoff like any K9.

[Luke]

I think he left it with his buddy. Sounds like his buddy might not be his buddy anymore

[Dagga Boy]

Most know I far prefer animals, and dogs specifically far more than people. I loathed the idea of ever having to possibly shoot a dog as a police officer and luckily never had to. With that said, I spent four years riding a police bicycle around ghetto's, often at night. Bicycles tend to set off dogs "prey response" in a unique way. They aren't big like cars, and dogs can catch them. We got chased regularly, and often by dogs that were not normally aggressive. The aggressive ones went nuts. I could easily see a dog like this having a ton of anxiety at being separated from his owner acting in a manner that is not normal. This is a tragedy, but it sounds like blame is being placed in the wrong place.

[Alpha Sierra]

Yeah, this is gonna get messy and people will be at each other quickly.

Why?

[Alpha Sierra]

He's out of line to make the claim that the dog wasn't behaving aggressively, being he wasn't there to qualify that claim. That hurts his credibility in my eyes, as it comes off the same as the baby mommas who scream, "He didndonuthin! He would never shoot someone!" as she's standing over her dead son's body still clutching a pistol.

This.

Sorry, but someone's hero dog is going to eat a 9 if he bares his teeth at me.

[GJM]

This.

Sorry, but someone's hero dog is going to eat a 9 if he bares his teeth at me.

At what distance and under what circumstances?

[Alpha Sierra]

At what distance and under what circumstances?
At whichever distance and circumstance I decide he's a threat.

[GJM]

At whichever distance and circumstance I decide he's a threat.

In Alaska, that answer would likely get you arrested for shooting a bear.

[Alpha Sierra]

In Alaska, that answer would likely get you arrested for shooting a bear.

I don't know WTF you're talking about nor do I care. Where I live the laws about shooting aggressive dogs are pretty liberal.

[GJM]

In Alaska, we have a law referred to as "DLP," or defense of life and property. If you kill a game animal, in defense of your life or property, you fill out this form, and are then interviewed by law enforcement to determine whether you will face prosecution. "I felt threatened," doesn't, in itself, cut it.

http://www.adfg.alaska.gov/static/license/otherlicense/pdfs/dlp.pdf

I also wonder whether liberal laws regarding shooting aggressive dogs would prevent you from a civil lawsuit?

[Alpha Sierra]

In Alaska, we have a law referred to as "DLP," or defense of life and property. If you kill a game animal, in defense of your life or property, you fill out this form, and are then interviewed by law enforcement to determine whether you will face prosecution. "I felt threatened," doesn't, in itself, cut it.

http://www.adfg.alaska.gov/static/license/otherlicense/pdfs/dlp.pdf

I also wonder whether liberal laws regarding shooting aggressive dogs would prevent you from a civil lawsuit?

First of all, we're talking about some loose dog here. Who cares about your laws regarding game animals? They have nothing to do with what's being discussed here.

And yes, my state's law sheilds me from civil damages if my shooting is justified. Keep your dog on a leash.

[breakingtime91]

First of all, we're talking about some loose dog here. Who cares about your laws regarding game animals? They have nothing to do with what's being discussed here.

And yes, my state's law sheilds me from civil damages if my shooting is justified. Keep your dog on a leash.

So no offense but this just wasnt his "hero" dog. It was decorated combat veteran of the united states. While the story is unfortunate and the details are not out yet, have some respect. I understand you used to be a sailor but that dogs dd214 was probably more impressive then yours and mine

[LOKNLOD]

Yeah, this is gonna get messy and people will be at each other quickly.


Why?

A few posts later, and this seems almost humorously ironic.



Situation sucks for all involved, but the owner needs to put on his big-boy panties and realize it's not out of the question. If you tell me your dog would never be aggressive, and then tell me he's on Prozac for wartime PTSD, I'm going to scratch my head a bit. That sort of sounds like the "I can't believe my son was an active shooter, he was doing so well...we just bought him that new AK last week to reward his progress in the anger management classes now that he's on the new meds..."
I sort of doubt the bicycler was just cruising around looking for pups to pop.

Flip it around, if the dog mauled a guy... would that make all of these dogs bad? You'd have calls (probably from a lot of the people who are upset either way, because they thrive on being upset) for euthanization at end of service because they're "such a danger..." :rolleyes:

[TGS]

GJM,

I sense that you're taking issue.

Life is simple. If a dog makes a person feel threatened for life/limb, that person is usually justified to dispatch the animal. If people don't allow their dogs to threaten another human being, and they won't have that problem. Moral of the story is to use whatever methods would be appropriate for the situation to control the dog....for most Americans, that means a leash or keeping it in a fenced yard. If a person is in a really rural area and decides not to, then tough shit if the dog gets put down when it encounters someone and threatens them....they allowed that situation to happen.

[Alpha Sierra]

So no offense but this just wasnt his "hero" dog. It was decorated combat veteran of the united states. While the story is unfortunate and the details are not out yet, have some respect. I understand you used to be a sailor but that dogs dd214 was probably more impressive then yours and mine

It's a dog that presumably tried to bite someone minding his own business. Respect went right out the window with that one.

And his DD214 is irrelevant.

[breakingtime91]

It's a dog that presumably tried to bite someone minding his own business. Respect went right out the window with that one.

And his DD214 is irrelevant.

Or was the guy a dick who didn't know how to deal with an upset dog

[TGS]

Or was the guy a dick...

Well, after all, he IS a cyclist.....

.....good point.

[idahojess]

Well, after all, he IS a cyclist.....

.....good point.

Hey now... no fair.
Apparently it was cyclist with a Judge.
http://billingsgazette.com/news/local/retired-military-k-who-served-in-iraq-shot-killed-in/article_1ec0d928-fc7f-5565-9152-e174e388f38b.html

But I won't pick on him for that. Sad story, but if the dog is on the street, the owner's got to take a big chunk of the responsibility. As I've mentioned before, I probably wouldn't shoot a dog in that situation, but it really comes down to whether the biker felt like he was in danger of getting hurt. I think a reasonable person is going to have some legitimate wariness of a Mal or a GSD on the street. I've seen our local police force's Mal's and GSD's and they seem like great dogs, but I've also seen how much they like to hang off of people's arms.

[breakingtime91]

Hey now... no fair.
Apparently it was cyclist with a Judge.
http://billingsgazette.com/news/local/retired-military-k-who-served-in-iraq-shot-killed-in/article_1ec0d928-fc7f-5565-9152-e174e388f38b.html

But I won't pick on him for that. Sad story, but if the dog is on the street, the owner's got to take a big chunk of the responsibility. As I've mentioned before, I probably wouldn't shoot a dog in that situation, but it really comes down to whether the biker felt like he was in danger of getting hurt. I think a reasonable person is going to have some legitimate wariness of a Mal or a GSD on the street. I've seen our local police force's Mal's and GSD's and they seem like great dogs, but I've also seen how much they like to hang off of people's arms.

I also had someone yell at my two german shephards while he/she were in my drive way and I was grilling. He got pissed off when my dogs barked in response. Some people don't like dogs, some people overreact to dogs (like Alpha obviously), and then some people just don't know how to handle dogs. A stern response and showing of dominance will deescalate most situation with dogs, but then some people just don't respect things they perceive under them and would rather kill them. Full disclaimer, I like dogs/animals much more then humans and had a really hard time watching dogs get shot in Afghanistan (they would attack our IED dog).

[Malamute]

Life is simple. If a dog makes a person feel threatened for life/limb, that person is usually justified to dispatch the animal. If people don't allow their dogs to threaten another human being, and they won't have that problem. Moral of the story is to use whatever methods would be appropriate for the situation to control the dog....for most Americans, that means a leash or keeping it in a fenced yard. If a person is in a really rural area and decides not to, then tough shit if the dog gets put down when it encounters someone and threatens them....they allowed that situation to happen.

Not necessarily that simple. Some people are simply afraid of large dogs, the dog doesnt need to be doing anything aggressive, can even be friendly, but some people perceive any large dog as scary and aggressive. So does that make it OK to shoot the dog? Not OK in my book.

Story indicates the dog was shot in its backside. Doesnt sound like a direct threat at that time.

I fully agree people need to keep their animals under control and not allowed to cause trouble, but the problem isnt always the animal.

[breakingtime91]

Not necessarily that simple. Some people are simply afraid of large dogs, the dog doesnt need to be doing anything aggressive, can even be friendly, but some people perceive any large dog as scary and aggressive. So does that make it OK to shoot the dog? Not OK in my book.

Story indicates the dog was shot in its backside. Doesnt sound like a direct threat at that time.

thats where I am at. If someone shot my dog, even if I wasnt there, I would want some answers and they better be good. I have raised both my dogs since they were puppies and one helped me transition into civilian life, which I think was a huge reason why it was so smooth for me. I can completely see where this Ranger is coming from and he has my sympathy. So far this story isn't adding up.

[BWT]

The one thing I can say definitively about the situation is it's certainly very regrettable.

I hate seeing dogs being put down, and especially ones with this background; I think the situation is very bad.

Unfortunately, like most shootings; I can't observe what happened. I've had dogs in my family my entire life time, and I can say certain ones have certainly been more aggressive than others. For instance, my brother was chased ontop of a car as a kid by my Grandfather's German Shepherd. The dog simply was unstable, and my brother was hitting the ground with the stick as about a 5-6 year old (ETA: the dog was on the porch about 30-40 yards away and my brother was in the drive way. I'll also add My mother, grandfather, grandmother and everyone's screaming at the dog to come back and/or stop didn't change a thing. The dog cleared the porch faster than anyone could react, he saw, ran around the car got ontop of the hood then ontop of the car and eventually my grandfather was able to get him by the collar and drag him to a chain on the porch). He should have been put down by my grandfather because that wasn't the last time it literally went after my brother or I as small children. However, he wanted a good "guard dog", and his solution was just to fence him into certain parts of the yard when we were there.

This situation's difficult for a lot of reasons, and I do think the root cause needs to be found. I'd be first concerned why my dog was out running about, and I do value nyeti's input. I know my Dad carried 3 water bottles while he cycled because dogs like to chase cyclists (like they like to chase UPS/mail trucks), and he literally ended up more than a few times kicking one in the face or spraying it or throwing a bottle at them.

This dog; it's hard to say. What I'd expect of a dog like that that's been trained is a very good working dog that was responsive to commands and comfortable with people and stimuli that might trigger other dogs. If it wasn't trained; prior personal experience with shepherding dogs is they can be very territorial. Compound those two things with the fact I don't know if anyone witnessed what actually happened and this is a very unclear situation. Glancing through the info here it appears the dog also was on medication to reduce anxiety and was diagnosed as having PTSD symptoms; I'd be furious with my buddy. Regardless, I'd be furious that my friend let the dog wander out off a leash.

I'm going to say something that might get me in hot water, but as a life long dog owner if you have a dog keep it on a leash in public. I've seen too many people get bit by dogs that "would never do that" or get hit by a car, or something else because they stop treating the dog like a dog. To me it's like when you run across individuals who keep their fingers on the trigger because "I've never had an accident" or aren't mindful of the direction of the muzzle of the gun and get agitated when it's brought up. My Dad has a pitbull that's a Katrina rescue (she's a lot older these days) but she's a sweet heart and never displayed aggression. That being said; Pitbulls were bred to fight (even though she's like a family member) unlike scary looking guns; dogs can/do make decisions independent of the owner/operator. I would not let her off the leash outdoors under any circumstances.

The worst part of this situation in my opinion is how preventable it is.

This is a lose-lose.

God Bless,

Brandon

ETA: I brought up the water bottles with my Dad because he only drank out of 1, but he got so used to be chased and attacked by dogs in the residential area we lived; he just brought them because it happened that regularly.

[TGS]

Not necessarily that simple. Some people are simply afraid of large dogs, the dog doesnt need to be doing anything aggressive, can even be friendly, but some people perceive any large dog as scary and aggressive. So does that make it OK to shoot the dog? Not OK in my book.

Story indicates the dog was shot in its backside. Doesnt sound like a direct threat at that time.

I fully agree people need to keep their animals under control and not allowed to cause trouble, but the problem isnt always the animal.

"GSW to the backside" without further information is meaningless. A dog can be facing you and if you aim high you'll end up hitting it in the backside.

You're inserting a whole hell of a lot subjectivity and bias.

[Hambo]

I've had more trouble from humans than dogs while on my road bike.

[GJM]

Just like people, some dogs need to be shot. However, the standard "I felt threatened," in itself, doesn't cut it for me. Otherwise, if the standard is simply "I feel threatened," someone could shoot a dog simply because, for example, the dog is large and nearby.

I believe a person should be able to articulate why they were threatened, and the physical facts should support it. Wish the cyclist was wearing a body cam or there was video.

A quick look at Wyoming law suggests most of the laws in this area are designed to protect sheep. Not kidding. Incidents like this can cause legislators to modify laws. For example, the video of that shooting of the dog in Kansas, that was in a recent LE thread, led to a change in policy.


http://www.kcwy13.com/home/headlines/Graphic-video-Policy-changed-after-officer-shoots-kills-pet--321038841.html?device=tablet&c=y

Snippet:

Brown said the Topeka Police Dept. will engage with the Thomas & Means Law Firm, which is already doing a comprehensive review of all department policies. He said changes are meant to reduce the number of incidents in which pets are injured or killed by law enforcement officers.

The new requirement will be "...that officers can only use lethal force against an animal when necessary to defend against a vicious animal when it is reasonably believed the animal poses an imminent threat of significant injury and no other reasonable means of protection is available."


Sent from my iPad

[LittleLebowski]

I agree with GJM (both of us know from experience) that facing down and discouraging a charging dog can usually be easier than you think.

That being said, this is tough to judge from afar without video or witnesses. There's a guy on LightFighter that had a trained K9 Malinois he had to put down after the dog bit members of his immediate family the dog was living with twice. I don't think it's the breed (I certainly think some strains of pit bulls have issues as a sub-breed, I know that is not the correct terminology) but rather the wrong training for a dog in the wrong environment.

I do not doubt the possibility that this dog went after the bicyclist. Wyoming folk are by and large, not generally terrified of dogs.

[jh9]

I'm going to say something that might get me in hot water, but as a life long dog owner if you have a dog keep it on a leash in public.

This shouldn't be at all controversial. It's the correct response.

We had dogs growing up. Most of them weren't a problem. I don't dislike dogs, but the notion that I should have to wait until someone's poorly socialized bite machine has mauled me before I can act in self defense is infuriating. If it's off leash and within powder burn distance I don't think it's unreasonable that I'm the one that gets to decide how threatening the situation is.

Maybe your (the royal you, not BWT in particular) dog is just in need of some alpha display to make it back down, but it's totally unacceptable that I'm expected to be some animal psychologist in order to use public spaces because people don't want their dog on a leash.

If it's on your own property (e.g. in a fenced in yard) that changes things.

[joshs]

At whichever distance and circumstance I decide he's a threat.

Do you have a citation to your state's purely subjective test for use of force?

[OnionsAndDragons]

This is a really tough thing to read.

I also know it's tough for some of us to wrap our brains around. Some of us are serious dog people, and that informs our feelings on the situation.

I would, and have, generally give an aggressive postured dog more opportunity to correct than the average person. This undoubtably costs time on my end. But, if I think there is a high percentage chance that a firm dominance display will correct the dog, I'm willing to hurt my chances a little. This is entirely because I have had dogs most of my life, and would hope someone else would do the same for mine if he pulled a Houdini or was having a really bad day.

I'm trying not to project my personal stance and risk tolerance on another.

I will say it pisses me off to no end that the cyclist didn't have OC. It's dirt cheap.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[SamAdams]

I will say it pisses me off to no end that the cyclist didn't have OC. It's dirt cheap.

We live out in farm country now. But, when we visit relatives in the big city & I take the dog for walk - I carry an Irish blackthorn walking stick, OC, and my pistol. I like dogs, and wouldnt want to have to shoot one. And, I want to avoid the headaches that can come afterwards.

[LittleLebowski]

It is a really tough line to walk, especially for people not familiar with large dogs and dog behavior. Like I said elsewhere on here, I was no shit charged by a 120lb Boerboel (http://www.dogbreedplus.com/dog_breeds/images/boerboel.jpg) and it took a lot of nerve not to run or draw down on the dog. I doubt that if I had drawn and shot and there was video of the encounter, anyone would have blamed me for shooting. Instead, I faced the dog down with bravado. In this case, it is quite likely a trained Malinois would not have taken my bravado seriously.

[SamAdams]

I was no shit charged by a 120lb Boerboel (http://www.dogbreedplus.com/dog_breeds/images/boerboel.jpg) and it took a lot of nerve not to run or draw down on the dog.

Holy Crap ! That's one impressive looking animal. - Nerves of steel to keep your cool when under its unwanted focus

[LittleLebowski]

Holy Crap ! That's one impressive looking animal. - Nerves of steel to keep your cool when under its unwanted focus

The males are larger than the mere 120lb female my friend owns :D Nice pup, actually.

[Alpha Sierra]

Do you have a citation to your state's purely subjective test for use of force?
I most certainly do:


Ohio Revised Code 955.28 Dog may be killed for certain acts - owner liable for damages.

(A) Subject to divisions (A)(2) and (3) of section 955.261 of the Revised Code, a dog that is chasing or approaching in a menacing fashion or apparent attitude of attack, that attempts to bite or otherwise endanger, or that kills or injures a person or a dog that chases, threatens, harasses, injures, or kills livestock, poultry, other domestic animal, or other animal, that is the property of another person, except a cat or another dog, can be killed at the time of that chasing, threatening, harassment, approaching, attempt, killing, or injury.

You can read here the full text: http://codes.ohio.gov/orc/955.28

Which means I get to decide what is a "menacing" fashion or apparent attitude of attack. I can also easily tell when a dog is "attempting to bite" or "otherwise endanger".

These laws did not appear in a vaccum.......most likely they are there in response to irresponsible dog owners.

[Alpha Sierra]

Or was the guy a dick who didn't know how to deal with an upset dog

Excuse me?

I don't need to "know how to deal with" an upset dog. I don't have a dog. I don't want a dog. And I want nothing to do with YOURS.

But if you can't keep yours under control, YOU will learn to deal with the aftermath, and if you think you're owed answers, think again.

[Alpha Sierra]

the notion that I should have to wait until someone's poorly socialized bite machine has mauled me before I can act in self defense is infuriating. If it's off leash and within powder burn distance I don't think it's unreasonable that I'm the one that gets to decide how threatening the situation is.

Maybe your (the royal you, not BWT in particular) dog is just in need of some alpha display to make it back down, but it's totally unacceptable that I'm expected to be some animal psychologist in order to use public spaces because people don't want their dog on a leash.
+1

Too many dog people don't get this, and they better start getting it.

[joshs]

Which means I get to decide what is a "menacing" fashion or apparent attitude of attack. I can also easily tell when a dog is "attempting to bite" or "otherwise endanger".

No, it doesn't. Those are elements of an offense that would have to be determined be the fact finder.


These laws did not appear in a vaccum.......most likely they are there in response to irresponsible dog owners.

Yeah, it looks like the law developed to protect sheep farmers. See Uebele v. State (Mahoning 1926) 21 Ohio App. 459.

[fixer]

I'm a card carrying member of the dog-lover crowd. However I have had some substantial issues with loose dogs and dogs in packs in the last few years that has forced me to reconsider my attitude and views.

Jh9, Alpha, and TGS are correct on this matter.

I am not waiting until I have teeth in me to decide if a dog or dogs are a threat.

Dogs do not communicate like humans do.
Dogs are not subject to laws in the same manner humans are
Dogs don't know anything but animal instinct.

People don't have to be expected to be a Lackland quality dog trainer to deal with other dogs.

I have been on the receiving end of a dog attack. A large mixed breed was in the process of trying to kill me. There was no mistaking it. It happened in seconds. I wasn't expecting it. One of the top frightening moments of my life. If I was anyone else, an old man, a young kid, this would have been a sad news story of someone being mauled to death.

Since that incident I now view loose dogs as a serious threat until proven otherwise.

[orionz06]

The local response from the unbathed tactical hipster crowd with beards and fresh tattoos seems to think that the cyclist should be charged and executed like he was Osama Bin Laden's kid who started to plan an attack on US soil.

[idahojess]

Here's a better article, from the local paper.

http://www.powelltribune.com/news/item/14141-service-dog-retired-military-k-9-killed-in-weekend-incident


“Essentially, if you feel your life is in danger or threatened by an animal, you can act against it,” Park County Sheriff Scott Steward said Wednesday. Steward said that, according to the man’s statements and his actions, he felt threatened.

The man was not injured in the incident.

According to the account the bicyclist gave to the Sheriff’s Office, he was turning north onto Road 5 from Lane 9 when he was “attacked” by a “German shepherd-looking dog.”

The Powell man got off of his bike and began using it as a shield, circling back and forth and keeping the bike between him and the dog, he told the Sheriff’s Office. Eventually, he was able to grab a revolver from his bicycle-mounted holster, and he shot the dog. The dog ran away and the man called 911, the Sheriff’s Office said.

“(The man) said he was genuinely in fear of his life and well-being, and the dog was ‘definitely in full attack mode and not backing down at all,’” Park County Sheriff’s Office spokesman Lance Mathess summarized of the report later compiled by a deputy.

[Chance]

My sister has an ~80 lbs weimaraner. I've been around dogs all my life, and I can't read him very well. He's almost knocked me off my feet before, and that was just when he was friendly and trying to say hello. Even if the dog in question wasn't acting aggressively, they can still be really intimidating. Especially if you don't know the dog, and have a few seconds to decide whether you're being greeted, or mauled.

[Malamute]

"GSW to the backside" without further information is meaningless. A dog can be facing you and if you aim high you'll end up hitting it in the backside.

You're inserting a whole hell of a lot subjectivity and bias.

I took shot in the backside as shot from behind. It wouldnt be worthy of comment if if came from in front of the dog.

Ive had dogs most of my life, and have been bit a couple times, including in the face by a GSD when a kid. I have zero issue with anyone truly defending themselves, there have been several instances I would have shot aggresive dogs with one tiny bit more aggression shown, but this, so far isnt conclusively pointing there yet. In most such cases, I think the law is with the person, as it likely should be, but that doesnt mean they were truly in danger or are even relating the details honestly or fully.

Perhaps there is some subjectivity and bias, from all sides.

ETA: Im typing really slow. Just saw the post about the expanded account. If thats the case, he had good reason.

[LittleLebowski]

I think that most people "in fear for their lives" with dogs exaggerate the whole thing due to a desire to shoot and/or lack of knowledge of dog behavior. I don't think that about this case.

[Trooper224]

If the expanded account is accurate the bicyclist was warranted in his actions. The only one to blame here is the dogs owner for not insuring the animal was properly secured. I don't care what his DD214 looks like, I don't care if the dog has one either. I've got one and I'll wipe my ass with it if needed. I'm getting pretty tired of veterans throwing that shit out there like it's an excuse for bad behavior. I'm also getting tired of pet owners humanising their animals. If you truly set greater value in the life of a dog than you do another human being your seriously fucked in the head. Climb down off the cross, someone needs the wood.

[LittleLebowski]

If the expanded account is accurate the bicyclist was warranted in his actions. The only one to blame here is the dogs owner for not insuring the animal was properly secured. I don't care what his DD214 looks like, I don't care if the dog has one either. I've got one and I'll wipe my ass with it if needed. I'm getting pretty tired of veterans throwing that shit out there like it's an excuse for bad behavior. I'm also getting tired of pet owners humanising their animals. If you truly set greater value in the life of a dog than you do another human being your seriously fucked in the head. Climb down off the cross, someone needs the wood.

I like the cut of your jib.

[TCinVA]

The local response from the unbathed tactical hipster crowd with beards and fresh tattoos seems to think that the cyclist should be charged and executed like he was Osama Bin Laden's kid who started to plan an attack on US soil.

People frequently get stupid over animals.

I like dogs.

I like most dogs more than I like most people.

Unfortunately most dogs are not properly trained nor are they under proper control by most owners. With a dog like a Yorkie terrier, this doesn't pose much of a threat with most people.

With the larger working breeds a dog that is not under control is a big deal. I know folks who worked at the local SPCA, for example, who have had permanent damage done by larger aggressive dogs. One almost lost her right hand and years later after multiple surgeries it still isn't ever going to be right again.

If I'm faced with a dog capable of causing me serious injury that is aggressive (I know enough about dog behavior to spot aggression) and not under control, I'll shoot it. I'm not going to give a dog any more chances to injure me than I would give an armed felon.

[Totem Polar]

I like the cut of your jib.

Me too.

I have to say, I'm amazed at how the right to self defense seems to take on fluidity based on the perceived protected status of the attacker, even on P-F. For the record, I'm probably only slightly to the left of Darryl/Nyeti when it comes to my general preference of most dogs over most people. I'm also a long-time dog owner (including PR challenged little mutts like amstaffs and Rotties) and mine have always been kept close to the vest.

Sometimes bad shit happens to good people. I don't blame the biker, and I sure as hell don't blame the dog. I'm not even sure I have enough facts to work up a serious head of steam against either the owner, or the dog sitter without knowing how vet pooch became AWOL. Sucks hard all around, but that's how it goes sometimes.

Also, this:

This shouldn't be at all controversial...

Maybe your (the royal you, not BWT in particular) dog is just in need of some alpha display to make it back down, but it's totally unacceptable that I'm expected to be some animal psychologist in order to use public spaces because people don't want their dog on a leash.

[Wondering Beard]

I know enough about dog behavior to spot aggression

Let's make this thread educational. What could be /are the signs of an aggressive dog?

I grew up around dogs, so I think I can tell the difference but maybe I can't tell the difference as well as I think and I do think all of us could use some extra knowledge.

[TiroFijo]

If the expanded account is accurate the bicyclist was warranted in his actions. The only one to blame here is the dogs owner for not insuring the animal was properly secured. I don't care what his DD214 looks like, I don't care if the dog has one either. I've got one and I'll wipe my ass with it if needed. I'm getting pretty tired of veterans throwing that shit out there like it's an excuse for bad behavior. I'm also getting tired of pet owners humanising their animals. If you truly set greater value in the life of a dog than you do another human being your seriously fucked in the head. Climb down off the cross, someone needs the wood.

I totally agree. Not much else to say.

[breakingtime91]

If the expanded account is accurate the bicyclist was warranted in his actions. The only one to blame here is the dogs owner for not insuring the animal was properly secured. I don't care what his DD214 looks like, I don't care if the dog has one either. I've got one and I'll wipe my ass with it if needed. I'm getting pretty tired of veterans throwing that shit out there like it's an excuse for bad behavior. I'm also getting tired of pet owners humanising their animals. If you truly set greater value in the life of a dog than you do another human being your seriously fucked in the head. Climb down off the cross, someone needs the wood.

That's swell.

[Malamute]

If the expanded account is accurate the bicyclist was warranted in his actions. The only one to blame here is the dogs owner for not insuring the animal was properly secured. I don't care what his DD214 looks like, I don't care if the dog has one either. I've got one and I'll wipe my ass with it if needed. I'm getting pretty tired of veterans throwing that shit out there like it's an excuse for bad behavior. I'm also getting tired of pet owners humanising their animals. If you truly set greater value in the life of a dog than you do another human being your seriously fucked in the head. Climb down off the cross, someone needs the wood.

Agree in general, and some people do try to humanize their animals. Some just like their animals a lot, and can accept that they dont reason, nor behave as wed like at times.


People frequently get stupid over animals.

I like dogs.

I like most dogs more than I like most people.

Unfortunately most dogs are not properly trained nor are they under proper control by most owners. With a dog like a Yorkie terrier, this doesn't pose much of a threat with most people...

There are some truly psycho animals, or some that snap for whatever reason. I think a large number of animal problems are a lack of training and management by the people involved. They are unwilling, unable, or genuinely ignorant of how to truly train an animal. And I dont mean anything fancy, just basically train them how to behave and act.


Me too.

I have to say, I'm amazed at how the right to self defense seems to take on fluidity based on the perceived protected status of the attacker, even on P-F. For the record, I'm probably only slightly to the left of Darryl/Nyeti when it comes to my general preference of most dogs over most people. I'm also a long-time dog owner (including PR challenged little mutts like amstaffs and Rotties) and mine have always been kept close to the vest.

Sometimes bad shit happens to good people. I don't blame the biker, and I sure as hell don't blame the dog. I'm not even sure I have enough facts to work up a serious head of steam against either the owner, or the dog sitter without knowing how vet pooch became AWOL. Sucks hard all around, but that's how it goes sometimes.

Also, this:

^ ^ Good post.

[peterb]

Let's make this thread educational. What could be /are the signs of an aggressive dog?

I grew up around dogs, so I think I can tell the difference but maybe I can't tell the difference as well as I think and I do think all of us could use some extra knowledge.

Here's one:
https://www.aspca.org/pet-care/virtual-pet-behaviorist/dog-behavior/canine-body-language

[GJM]

I just read the latest article posted -- according to the shooter's statement, he shot it in the rear at 5-10 feet away with bird shot.

[SecondsCount]

I own two dogs and am kind to most animals but I have been bitten three times by a dog.

Last fall I was putting a couple pieces of luggage in my car, in my own driveway, when a couple black German Shepherds came hauling across the front lawn from the neighbor's yard hell bent on bad things. I grabbed a suitcase and put it between me and the dogs but my next thought was to draw down on them. Luckily they got within 10 yards of me and stopped because their owner, who was staying there as a guest, called them off.

Having an unknown dog, let alone two of them of that size, come at you is not a pleasant experience and it took my a good part of an hour for my nerves to calm down. Dog bites can kill or cause permanent injury and to this day I would have had no issue with shooting both of them dead.

[breakingtime91]

I own two dogs and am kind to most animals but I have been bitten three times by a dog.

Last fall I was putting a couple pieces of luggage in my car, in my own driveway, when a couple black German Shepherds came hauling across the front lawn from the neighbor's yard hell bent on bad things. I grabbed a suitcase and put it between me and the dogs but my next thought was to draw down on them. Luckily they got within 10 yards of me and stopped because their owner, who was staying there as a guest, called them off.

Having an unknown dog, let alone two of them of that size, come at you is not a pleasant experience and it took my a good part of an hour for my nerves to calm down. Dog bites can kill or cause permanent injury and to this day I would have had no issue with shooting both of them dead.

I completely agree with you. If there is a threat to someone's life, by all means shoot the animal. With that said, I don't know how often a dog has to be shot to deescalate a situation. Right now, I am still unsure if this shooting really needed to take place but at this point what does it matter? I think it was an unfortunate set of circumstances and while I don't agree with everyone's view point towards dogs, I can understand where they are coming from. For Trooper who stated that some people value an animals life more than a humans, I don't believe anyone said that. I know I agreed with Nyeti where i LIKE dogs more then most people, mostly because people are lame and suck :cool:. That's not stating I think an animals life is more important than a humans, that is just stupid. I also never said that a DD214 excuses bad behavior, just the fact that stating someones "hero dog" was disrespectful of what the animal stands for and did. If you don't agree with me, I don't really give a shit. You can put me on your ignore list and ill do that same, its just the internet after all.

[Wondering Beard]

Here's one:
https://www.aspca.org/pet-care/virtual-pet-behaviorist/dog-behavior/canine-body-language

Thanks :-)

There were a few things I didn't know and that was helpful.

[Shellback]

...or the dog sitter without knowing how vet pooch became AWOL.

Without knowing the details, I know my Mal can hop a 6 ft. fence with ease, and damn near eats doorknobs trying to get out of the house. He bites the knobs and tries to twist them to get out of the house when he's left alone. Without a knowledgeable person watching the dog I can easily see how a Mal could escape looking for his Alpha.

This is the "good one". The other looks like a golf ball.

http://i62.tinypic.com/214v582.jpg

[HCM]

Here's a better article, from the local paper.

http://www.powelltribune.com/news/item/14141-service-dog-retired-military-k-9-killed-in-weekend-incident


“Essentially, if you feel your life is in danger or threatened by an animal, you can act against it,” Park County Sheriff Scott Steward said Wednesday. Steward said that, according to the man’s statements and his actions, he felt threatened.

The man was not injured in the incident.

According to the account the bicyclist gave to the Sheriff’s Office, he was turning north onto Road 5 from Lane 9 when he was “attacked” by a “German shepherd-looking dog.”

The Powell man got off of his bike and began using it as a shield, circling back and forth and keeping the bike between him and the dog, he told the Sheriff’s Office. Eventually, he was able to grab a revolver from his bicycle-mounted holster, and he shot the dog. The dog ran away and the man called 911, the Sheriff’s Office said.

“(The man) said he was genuinely in fear of his life and well-being, and the dog was ‘definitely in full attack mode and not backing down at all,’” Park County Sheriff’s Office spokesman Lance Mathess summarized of the report later compiled by a deputy.

Thanks, this answered my question from the start of the thread.

[LittleLebowski]

I know that area. Not a hotbed of folks terrified of dogs.

Also, Powell is the hometown of my brother in arms, Therrell Childers (http://www.mensjournal.com/magazine/print-view/the-first-to-die-20120906). I was also born there.

[SamAdams]

This thread encouraged me to re-read a short book by a guy named Loren Christensen, on protecting yourself against a dog attack. He was an Army dog handler. He was actually bit by his own dog during a training exercise. Said it wasn't the dogs fault; the trainer moved his leg in a way that put himself at risk. -- What I basically got from the book, is that even domesticated dogs are creatures of instinct. Someone running from them or pumping legs on your bicycle may trigger their drive to chase prey. Christensen recommends OC and says it usually works - but not on all dogs or at all times. And sometimes wind & rain makes OC ineffective.

We don't know what happened that day. But, after re-reading this book, I'm less suspicious of the bicyclist's account. Its sad that this happened. I'm sure the vet misses his dog greatly.

[Alpha Sierra]

No, it doesn't. Those are elements of an offense that would have to be determined be the fact finder.
Good luck with that


Yeah, it looks like the law developed to protect sheep farmers. See Uebele v. State (Mahoning 1926) 21 Ohio App. 459.
Doesn't make it any less useful now in urban settings

[NEPAKevin]

The dog was reaching... it was kill or be killed. (about two minutes in)



http://youtu.be/5a14GkdC9HY

[Peally]

If the expanded account is accurate the bicyclist was warranted in his actions. The only one to blame here is the dogs owner for not insuring the animal was properly secured. I don't care what his DD214 looks like, I don't care if the dog has one either. I've got one and I'll wipe my ass with it if needed. I'm getting pretty tired of veterans throwing that shit out there like it's an excuse for bad behavior. I'm also getting tired of pet owners humanising their animals. If you truly set greater value in the life of a dog than you do another human being your seriously fucked in the head. Climb down off the cross, someone needs the wood.

Indeed. For me it depends on the person and the dog though.

[Coyotesfan97]

If you have a bite trained Malinois trying to get at you and you're blocking it with a bike you only have a small window before he bites you. That dog is going to get around it. He's not stopping. He's been trained not to. After reading more about this I have no issues with the dog being shot. It sucks knowing what his background is. I have real issues with the dog being out of his kennel/yard/off leash and allowing him to decide who he bites.

A bite trained Malinois is a highly trained intelligent animal. He has the impulse control of a five year old. He's lives problems by biting. He has to be controlled so you're the one deciding who gets bitten.

Mals/Dutchies/GSDs can be escape artists. If you have an escape artist you'll know it. If you have an escape artist and you send it off to someone who doesn't have the proper kennel/equipment or mentality to keep it contained it's a lick on you.

I've personally seen how a Malionois flips the switch and decides to attack. I was down range from one with four other guys when it was running back to its handler. One of the guys it had bit previously on a call. I have no doubt it saw him and decided to go for him. Body language is everything. This ones ears went back and it went from the playful trot to a flat out run. You just knew he was coming for a bite.

We scattered like a covey of quail (like it would do any good). He went for one guy and ran between me and my boss to get him. Fortunately the Officer it went after is an experienced handler and it bit equipment in his BDU pocket. He held it off long enough for us and the dog's handler to get him under control. That dog was returned to the vendor shortly afterwards.

I've been bitten a number of times by my dog and other dogs. If you play with bite trained dogs you are going to get bit. We tell our new handlers that before they test. It's a hazard of the job. One of the best Dutch handler/trainers I know was recently been bit by his own dog. He's been in K9 over 30 years not to mention he's been involved in KNPV his whole life.

At least with Police K9s and MWDs they are trained to bite and hold. If you don't fight you have punctures. You generally don't have the multiples bites.

Most of the dogs you deal with are defensive. They are protecting themselves or their property. Most are putting on a big show ie bluffing. Oh they might bite if you push them into fight or flight. I like the idea of carrying a walking stick, a bright flashlight, and OC. I know I've said it before but I've stopped plenty of dogs with a bright light to their eyes and a harsh command. If you run you trigger prey drive. That dog will chase you. If you stand your ground and make him believe your the dominant one he'll generally stop.

[Alpha Sierra]

I've been accosted by a pack of dogs once. I had my loved ones with me. I had no weapons and I improvised with what I found on the ground and some balls.

That's the day that I decided that any dog that showed me any aggression whatsoever was going to get crushed no questions asked.

[Peally]

That's potentially as shortsighted a stance as "no dog would ever bite me", but I don't know how well you read dogs.

My dog barks occasionally because he enjoys it, like every other dog on the planet. He's being trained away from it but if someone immediately goes on the defensive thinking that's aggressive behaviour they're an idiot.

[Mitch]

I've been accosted by a pack of dogs once. I had my loved ones with me. I had no weapons and I improvised with what I found on the ground and some balls.

That's the day that I decided that any dog that showed me any aggression whatsoever was going to get crushed no questions asked.

Be careful with that attitude. Absolutes can be a dangerous way of thinking.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[RoyGBiv]

Was out walking yesterday with my wife and our 30 pound mutt. As we break into a clearing we see two GSD'd off leash. They spot us and immediately start trotting our way. I yell at their owner who is about 75 yards away "are your dogs aggressive?", as I put my hand under my shirt and on my gun. No reply.

The first dog reached us quickly and I intercepted him by grabbing his collar, which was met with compliance. He stood next to me. Good sign. Second dog reached us a few seconds later and approached my wife who was holding our dog by the leash.

I yelled to owner and his wife, who was taking his sweet fucking time. "You should move a lot fucking faster!".

The dogs did nothing more than sniff at each other, which was about what I expected after the first dog didn't show any aggression. I did share my thoughts with the asshole owners who thought is was ok to let their dogs off leash in the middle of a triathlon course and fail to act quickly or communicate anything regarding their dogs dispositions when that turned out to be a bad idea. Everyone was pretty calm about it except my mutt, but she's all hat and no cattle anyway.

Not sure whether they noticed my hand still under my shirt as they approached. They did apologize, FWIW.
Beautiful GSD's.

I did make a decision along the way that my dog or I was going to get bit before I would draw my gun, but that any aggression towards my wife would be enough to warrant quick action, likely starting with a kick in the gut to change the dogs focus towards me.

[Alpha Sierra]

That's potentially as shortsighted a stance as "no dog would ever bite me", but I don't know how well you read dogs.

My dog barks occasionally because he enjoys it, like every other dog on the planet. He's being trained away from it but if someone immediately goes on the defensive thinking that's aggressive behaviour they're an idiot.

I don't care about barking. It's the body language that goes with it.

[Alpha Sierra]

Be careful with that attitude. Absolutes can be a dangerous way of thinking.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

There are some things I will just not tolerate. That's one. If you have a dog, the onus is on you.

[Trooper224]

As I stated earlier I do feel many, if not most, pet owners are getting far too involved in their pets and I do feel the bicyclist acted appropriately. I'm also a dog lover and owned several throughout my life, even if I did divest myself of the hassle of pet owning several years ago. I owned a Doberman that I loved greatly and while it got to me when he died it wasn't like one of my kids passing. I do feel there are many cases throughout the country, especially in LE where dogs are being shot needlessly. In nearly a quarter of a century of LE work I've encountered numerous dogs, in both regular patrol and SWAT work. I've yet to shoot one. I've found that most dogs are,of course, pack animals who are looking for an Alpha Male. If you demonstrate that's who you are, through body posturing and loud authoritative commands you generally don't have a problem.

I once worked a wreck with a dog present. For most of the incident I gave two shits about the animals welfare, as I had greater priorities. After the scene was secured and the injured parties were on their way to the hospital I turned my attention to the animal. What I found were two Real American Heros, in their full bunker gear, chasing this dog down in the ditch along the fencline. Both of the firefighters were running after the pooch trying to lay hands on him and the dog wasn't having any of it. I walked down into the ditch and in my best command voice yelled, "Come!" The dog immediately stopped, then trotted over to me and stood at my feet waiting. I then said, "Sit!". He immediately complied and didn't move until family members came to get him. Most domesiticated animals are conditioned to responded to a greater authority, you just have to show it's you. I've only encountered one dog, on or off duty, that I felt might need to be shot. It was a Rottweiler chained up in a salvage yard. That dog responded to our presence with such maniacal hostility that there wasn't a doubt in my mind I'd shoot him if he broke his chain.

The issue arrises in the individuals ability to discern the animals behavior. Is it their protective instinct, bravado, or open hostility? Many people may not be able to make that distinction, nor should they really have to if the dogs owner acts responsibly. K9 handlers should expect to be bitten. If you're in LE or military work and spend a lot of time around dogs don't be surprised if you're bitten. Those are reasonable expectations. The dog is a piece of gear not a fellow officer or soldier. (That's a bullshit philosophy I don't aspire to. Awarding a canine a Bronze Star? Please. That's intended to give the humans involved a feel good moment, nothing more.) It's a commodity to be sacrificed if neccessary, but like any piece of equipment it isn't perfect. Use it often enough and it will malfunction. On the other hand, an average citizen conducting their lives and minding their own business shouldn't expect to be mauled. Those are not reasonable expectations. If this dog's owner knew he was a former service dog with that kind of training he should be charged with criminal negligence for not properly securing him.

[GJM]

I don't think any of us know what really happened and have enough information to assess whether the shooter's actions were justified.

If the newspaper account is correct, and that is a big if, what we know is:

1) that the cyclist was not bit.

2) that he shot the dog at 5-10 feet.

3) that he shot the dog in the backside.

I do not think it is credible for the owner to say what happened, when he was not there. If I were the owner, I would want to know exactly what angle the projectiles entered his dog. If the projectiles hit the dog in the backside, and the shooter says it was at 5-10 feet, the obvious question is was the dog a threat at that moment, moving that direction.

As I said early on, video would be very helpful in seeing what happened and assessing the reasonableness of the shooter's actions. If Mike were a 16 year old male, these are the questions that would be asked.

[Alpha Sierra]

The issue arrises in the individuals ability to discern the animals behavior. Is it their protective instinct, bravado, or open hostility? Many people may not be able to make that distinction, nor should they really have to if the dogs owner acts responsibly. K9 handlers should expect to be bitten. If you're in LE or military work and spend a lot of time around dogs don't be surprised if you're bitten. Those are reasonable expectations. The dog is a piece of gear not a fellow officer or soldier. (That's a bullshit philosophy I don't aspire to. Awarding a canine a Bronze Star? Please. That's intended to give the humans involved a feel good moment, nothing more.) It's a commodity to be sacrificed if neccessary, but like any piece of equipment it isn't perfect. Use it often enough and it will malfunction. On the other hand, an average citizen conducting their lives and minding their own business shouldn't expect to be mauled. Those are not reasonable expectations. If this dog's owner knew he was a former service dog with that kind of training he should be charged with criminal negligence for not properly securing him.

A voice of reason

[NEPAKevin]

... I walked down into the ditch and in my best command voice yelled, "Come!" The dog immediately stopped, then trotted over to me and stood at my feet waiting. I then said, "Sit!". He immediately complied and didn't move until family members came to get him. Most domesiticated animals are conditioned to responded to a greater authority, you just have to show it's you.

The "Shut up" command also seems to get good results, at least among dogs from English speaking households.

[Trooper224]

that he shot the dog in the backside.

If I was trying to protect myself from an aggresive dog by positioning my bike between the animal and myself, I can see it being highly likely I might being taking a shot at a downward angle that hit the dog in it's hindquarters. "Shot in the backside" can mean a lot of different things here, not neccesarily that the dog was running away.


If Mike were a 16 year old male, these are the questions that would be asked.

But Mike wasn't a 16 year old HUMAN male, so many of those questions need not apply. In fact, if Mike had been your 16 year old male many participants in this thread would be acting much more objectively than they are. However, since someone shot Lassie the collective Jimmy's all butt hurt about it with an emotional response.

[peterb]

I do not think it is credible for the owner to say what happened, when he was not there. If I were the owner, I would want to know exactly what angle the projectiles entered his dog. If the projectiles hit the dog in the backside, and the shooter says it was at 5-10 feet, the obvious question is was the dog a threat at that moment, moving that direction.


If you imagine a human and a dog circling counterclockwise, with a bicycle in the middle, and the human has the bike in his left hand and the gun in his right, a shot to the hindquarters from the side at 5-10 feet makes perfect sense.

Not saying that's what happened, but it's reasonable. "In the hindquarters" does not necessarily mean "from the rear". Circling in to a target is pretty standard canine behavior.

[GJM]

If you imagine a human and a dog circling counterclockwise, with a bicycle in the middle, and the human has the bike in his left hand and the gun in his right, a shot to the hindquarters from the side at 5-10 feet makes perfect sense.

Not saying that's what happened, but it's reasonable. "In the hindquarters" does not necessarily mean "from the rear". Circling in to a target is pretty standard canine behavior.

My point was none of us know what happened. It is all speculation. Could have been the most righteous shoot or most egregious shoot.

[Mitch]

Nevermind...

[TiroFijo]

People (other tan the owner) should not be required to understand dog psychology, evaluate animal behaviour, and guess what the animal intentions are.
Overreacting to a noisy/intruding/possibly agressive dog would be eliminated if the owner did his work, so stop guessing and blaming any other but the owner. Perhaps your big dog deep inside is a softie, loves children and is just being playful, I don't know and don't care. It's YOURS and should be your problema, not mine.
I think all dogs should be on a leash in public space, to make this responsability more patent, and this should be STRONGLY enforced.

[Peally]

I would agree, but life doesn't necessarily work like that. I shouldn't have to be an expert in reading crack heads or muggers too but it sure doesn't hurt to know a few tips and tricks.

[TAZ]

I love dogs. I cried like a baby when I had t have my dog put down. Much like Nytei I honestly think I like dogs better than most people.

However, much like with the 2 legged predators among us, I won't hesitate to put one in the dirt if a situation deteriorates to the point where I feel the threat for serious injury or death is present. IMO animal situations are much worse for most folks cause they just don't interact with strange dogs often enough to develop a good sense or feel for the situation. Heck, we interact with people almost every day and we still loose the handle very often on when a situation is about to go tits up. To expect that folks be able to accurately discern the intent of a strange animal is silly. Its kind of like expecting LEO to be able to accurately diagnose a crazy person waving knives about and decide they really aren't a threat. Not a soul here would argue that we should put that limit out there on LEO or CCW person dealing with the situation. So why are we expecting that here? Biker dealing with crazy entity waving sharp knives around and supposedly trying to get near him. If you think about it that way instead of the veteran, loving, puppy the situation is much more clear.

As for the shot in the back side. How many times have we discussed the dynamics of a shooting. We accept that in human on human shootings the relative positions are ever changing and bullets can impact the body at goofy angles due to posture changes and movement. Anyone remember the Mike Brown argument for the supposed top of the head hits. Guy bent over charging Wilson just might take a round to the top of the noggin and we all concluded that the hands up don't shoot, executed in cold blood crap was just that. What prevents us from taking the same approach with the shot in the back side? Cause the victim was cute and cuddly?

I am sorry the owner lost his dog and possibly his very good companion. But maybe he should have done a better job of making sure his dog didn't go roaming the surrounding areas unescorted and unleashed.

[fixer]

Was out walking yesterday with my wife and our 30 pound mutt. As we break into a clearing we see two GSD'd off leash. They spot us and immediately start trotting our way. I yell at their owner who is about 75 yards away "are your dogs aggressive?", as I put my hand under my shirt and on my gun. No reply.

The first dog reached us quickly and I intercepted him by grabbing his collar, which was met with compliance. He stood next to me. Good sign. Second dog reached us a few seconds later and approached my wife who was holding our dog by the leash.

I yelled to owner and his wife, who was taking his sweet fucking time. "You should move a lot fucking faster!".

The dogs did nothing more than sniff at each other, which was about what I expected after the first dog didn't show any aggression. I did share my thoughts with the asshole owners who thought is was ok to let their dogs off leash in the middle of a triathlon course and fail to act quickly or communicate anything regarding their dogs dispositions when that turned out to be a bad idea. Everyone was pretty calm about it except my mutt, but she's all hat and no cattle anyway.

Not sure whether they noticed my hand still under my shirt as they approached. They did apologize, FWIW.


From my experience with a situation very similar, I would keep cool. The dog owners are almost always worse than the dogs. You can quickly find yourself in a major melee over a dispute about a dog.

In my situation I told the dog owner to keep their dog leashed up in no uncertain terms. I was super irritated because I was 1) jogging and 2) the previous month had actually been full-on attacked by another loose dog in the area.

The situation escalated, no, exploded, into me being chased down and cut off by a woman in a dodge charger, and a teenaged kid and a tatted-up thug threatening me apocalyptic amounts of harm.

From that point, I carry a less lethal item and a phone programmed with the sheriff. I will not get bit before I act. I will not go 'hands-on' a dog. I will not discuss anything with the dog owner--the Sheriff can do that.