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TGS
10-16-2015, 03:42 PM
Had a very, very senior hard-charging, no shit skull crushing colleague known to 2 other P-F.com members the other day who was AIWB'ing a folder. This started a conversation among some of my other colleagues, including the following statement from an 8 or 9 year LE veteran:


There is zero reason for any knife in law enforcement. You're asking to just get thrown in jail given your agency has not trained or qualified you on it.

Discuss.

Lon
10-16-2015, 04:24 PM
Stupid comment on his part. There is a place for knives in LE. Not as a primary weapon, but as a tool and in an emergency, a weapon. By his reasoning, any impromptu weapon I use to defend myself is going to land me in jail because I didn't get training on it? Really? He clearly doesn't understand the laws regarding use of force and self defense.

Totem Polar
10-16-2015, 04:48 PM
I'm not LE, never was. But I never cease to be amazed at how many people there out there who dislike knives and fail to realize how useful a tool--one that literally predates the human race--can be. Same 'bird probably opens his bags of chips with his teeth; cardboard boxes with his keys. [rolleyesaroundandaround]

TC215
10-16-2015, 05:00 PM
NASHVILLE, Tenn. - A metro police officer was using the restroom Friday morning when a man tried to steal his gun. What happened next seems like a scene straight out of a movie. But it's real life, and it happened right next to the downtown library on Fifth Avenue and Church Street.

Downtown Nashville in the daytime is generally safe. So it seemed more than strange when a police officer and a homeless man somehow ended up involved in a stabbing well before noon.

""This is his situation. He's gone into the restroom. He is in his bicycle gear, shorts and his black shirt, that plainly say metro police on it, wearing a gun belt," said Don Aaron with metro police.

A man followed 23-year metro police veteran Marty Crowder into a small bathroom with only one urinal and one stall.

Police said the man locked the door and started approaching Crowder. James Collier, 43, then reached for the police officer's gun according to police. Police said they fought for a bit, before the officer pulled a knife from his bulletproof vest and stabbed Collier in the leg.

"He did the only thing he knew to do, which was to use the other weapon - a knife - and he managed to stab the guy in the upper left leg to back him away," said Aaron.

"There's not really much he could do from the perspective of watching his back at the urinal because there's not much you can do," said Callahan.

Police say they are taught to do whatever it takes to protect their gun. In this case, officer Crowder just happened to have a knife...but it is not a required part of police paraphernalia.

"A knife can come in handy in police work in a variety of situations," said Aaron.

The homeless man is someone police have seen wandering the streets for several months. But he has no other charges in Nashville. And police said he has never caused trouble until today.

"They attempted to speak with him. The suspect refused to speak," said Aaron.

The homeless man is in stable condition at Vanderbilt hospital. And after being treated for some cuts the officer is at home. The homeless man has not yet been charged, but police said he will be once he is released from the hospital.

pablo
10-16-2015, 05:03 PM
For starters he's a dumbass that doesn't know the difference from criminal and civil liability.

You can be held criminally liable for using a knife on someone when deadly force was not justified. The standard disclaimer that you can hung up for using any type of force when justified still applies.

You can be held civilly liable for using a knife when you are forbidden to carry one by policy, carry one that is not approved, or you were not justified in using deadly force.

Your agency will eat the liability for not training or qualifying you on a knife.

Pup town
10-16-2015, 05:12 PM
Just like barrack lawyers in the military, there are plenty of locker room lawyers (not sure if there's a better term already in usage) in LE. I wouldn't take legal advice from either.

I know LEOs that are convinced the department/bureau/agency will jam you up for this or for that action. (Leads to me to scratch my head, because I always think "Well, if this is so wrong you'd think they'd have told us at the academy or at one of the use of force/legal refreshers, or it would be expressly prohibited in the manual somewhere.) If you ask for a specific case of an officer getting jammed up for that particular thing, they can't come up with one or they'll cite a vague reference to it happening to a friend of a friend at a different agency.

Hauptmann
10-16-2015, 05:31 PM
I'm not trained to use my patrol vehicle as a deadly force weapon.....nor a rock, a metal pipe,.....etc. Yet all may be justifiably used in a deadly force situation. The same applies to a knife.

I'd be more worried about cutting myself in the process.

Lon
10-16-2015, 05:53 PM
You can be held civilly liable for using a knife when you are forbidden to carry one by policy, carry one that is not approved, or you were not justified in using deadly force.

Your agency will eat the liability for not training or qualifying you on a knife.

I agree you can be held liable for the bold part. Not sure I agree on the rest. I'd love to see a case cite where that's addressed.

Dagga Boy
10-16-2015, 06:15 PM
Having wrote a nationally recognized edged weapons program for my agency......it is something that should be addressed. An agency is helping both itself and its officers by providing training on the use of a knife for both utility and rescue work, as well as a last ditch or in extremis weapon. As stated earlier, criminally it is pretty simple....was lethal force justified or not, period. On the Civil liability side, the complexities begin and the easiest ways for agencies to protect themselves and officers is with good very open policy (restrictive policies get you sued and induce liability) and more importantly, training. My agency also issued Emerson PSark knives to every officer with training. It was a very successful program, including two very well done rescues using the knives and techniques taught in training the first week they were issued.

john c
10-17-2015, 01:20 AM
Nyeti;

I'm interested in learning more about the knife training program you wrote. Do you have a link or info you can share?

Thanks,

-John

Erick Gelhaus
10-17-2015, 02:03 AM
We have a program as well. Our came from George Williams @ Cutting Edge Training. The office has hosted both end user and instructor level courses. Our D/T guys teach the skills as well. There is a place for this tool in cop work.

tanner
10-17-2015, 03:35 AM
I have used my knife in the line of duty more than I have used my firearm.

Dagga Boy
10-19-2015, 01:50 PM
This was originally posted on the old 10-8 forum and is a sticky on Lightfighter. So here it is:

From the very beginnings of my L/E career in 1988, I was carrying two knives as both a tool and a back up weapon. I initially carried a Cold Steel Large Shinobu folder in a pouch on my belt and a Cold Steel Master Tanto on my right ankle, opposite to the back up revolver on my left ankle. I carried this combo long enough to wear the Kraton handle off the Tanto on my ankle. My training was limited to an old book on Tanto style knives, and a few ideas in my head about using a knife as a last ditch weapon. I added a Cold Steel Terminator push dagger clipped to the back of my vest behind my neck as well (It was so good being young and healthy and being able to carry tons of junk...).
As the years rolled on my knife tastes expanded. Nobody ever said a thing to me about what I was carrying, and I started doing some loose training with one of the DT guys at work. I was a firearms guy, he was a martial arts guy, and we sort of traded help. Eventually, I traded the Cold Steel stuff in for a lefty Spyderco Police knife in my left pocket for weapon retention and general cop stuff (opening locks at apartment complex gates, prying off stolen registration tags, cutting up pieces of crack cocaine for testing, etc.....). The Tanto stayed on my ankle with a cord wrap, and an Allen Blade punch (old OSS type thing) was around my neck. At some point, a supervisor told me that the punch thing would get me in trouble (more like helpful suggestion, than a P.C. decision).
After a few years and trying to lighten my load, I ditched the tanto on my leg for a set of ankle cuffs (the PCP years) and started carrying a Dawson fixed blade in my war bag, and then a Mad Dog S.E.A.L. A.T.A.K. in the bag with the idea of using it for vehicle (planes, trains, and automobiles) extraction, natural disasters, or other big blade needs, while the Spyderco did yeoman’s duty in my offside pocket. I had a detail change and started carrying a Strider WB while in a crime suppression Bicycle Unit to use as a breaching tool during raids and search warrants (we started calling it the Master Key). Then something enlightening happened. I was booking a subject at the County Jail when an officer from another agency (blue bow tie and all...) brought a crook into the search area, un cuffed him, and during a search by a booking deputy, a loaded gun was found in the bad guys pocket (nice search on a DUI suspect). So I'm standing there without a weapon, thinking that this is all bad. I was on the phone the next day with Duane Dwyer from Strider knives. I wanted a specialized L/E edged tool. We were getting so much good use out of the WB that I wanted the same Americanized Tanto point as the WB, the same thickness and structure as the big Strider, but in a size that could be carried concealed inside the trauma plate pocket of my vest, so it would always be with me, and not just on raids and search warrants. It was not really a quick access thing, but it saw a ton of use in a variety of roles. My favorite was during "knock and talks" at dope houses, once the door cracked for my partner, and P.C. was being established, I would slide the "DB" model Strider into the door crack so the door couldn't be slammed on my partners foot. It was also excellent for window prying and other tough prying chores. Having it with me at all times was also a good thing. I also began carrying one off-duty inside my waistband on my strong side set up for reverse grip draw in the place my pistol would go on my duty rig (I lived in an Eagle fanny pack, so having fast access to a weapon was good).



The other side............

During the period I was working in this Crime Suppression Bicycle Unit (ghetto bikes) we were making not only a ton of daily contacts, but we surprised folks almost all of the time. They really had no chance to ditch all their dope and weapons that they did when dealing with car bound officers. We started to find that almost every contact we made in the areas we worked, the suspects were armed with some type of edged weapon. The favorites-a sharpened Phillips head screw driver, a razor knife, or a carpet/linoleum knife. All things that would be considered "a tool"; however, we saw a ton of violence with these "tools". We were also getting folders, switchblades, hunting knives, steak knives, and awls. Being confronted with such close contact with blade-armed folks on a constant basis increased my awareness, but I realized that my fellow officers were woefully unprepared for dealing with a knife threat.
During this time, I also was depending solely on edged weapons as a back up to my primary pistol as there was nowhere else to practically carry a back-up pistol. We were in very regular violent arrests and shootings, and I was depending on my "back up" knives, yet I had no real training. I realized that to learn to defend against the knife, and to understand how to use the ones I had, I was going to have to pour myself into the knife world to truly learn the blade.


The experts............

I began seeking out training, edged weapons experts, and others who had good knowledge on the subject. I was lucky to have run into guys like Steve Tarani, Ernie Emerson, the guys from Strider, and a few others who I don't want to name. I was getting really high quality edged tools from guys like Emerson, McClung, the Strider guys, Steve Ryan, and others and "graduated" out of the production knives into higher quality and more purpose built "tactical knives" (before folks began collecting them....).

The culmination of all this was attending an Edged Weapons Training conference hosted by our own Tim Lau before he was a cop. It was a real eye opener, and again, I realized that cops were horribly under prepared to deal with edged weapons. I ended up hosting my own conference the next year with training by Ernie Emerson, Bram Frank, Mick Strider and Duane Dwyer, Marc "Crafty Dog" Denny, and Mike Ajax.............this really nailed down what was lacking and started to cement in my mind what cops should be learning for in field edged weapons use. This was getting worked in with a bunch of firearms stuff that worked well for the close work, and my Brazilian Jiu Jitsu training. I continued training with Ernie Emerson and worked very closely with Steve Tarani on developing training courses for cops in both edged weapon defense, as well as edged weapons use. My only contribution was an understanding of Police Use of Force issues and the practical field experience that these real edged weapons experts lacked. It came together really well.

It was now time to do something with all this training and knowledge to help the rest of the folks at my agency...this is the hard part.


The next phase of the process involved dissecting policy considerations, equipment, and how to implement training, and then selling the whole package.

When I decided to get serious about this, I was lucky enough to have some very good exposure during a class to an attorney that specializes in suing Southern California police departments. It is rare to get this kind of access to the "enemy", and have them "roll over". During his lecture and while addressing my questions, I learned some very interesting stuff.

These guys know their clients are generally scumbags who deserved everything they got. They also know their clients were probably guilty of criminal offenses and the cops were acting within their legal rights and committed no crime. Now being lawyers are out to make money...the money is in policy violations, and lack of use of force training. This is where the money is, as the agency and municipality is the one responsible for these issues, and they have the money. There is no money in suing individual cops (pay attention, this will make sense later). It was pointed out that most agency's have these insanely restrictive policies that are written by city lawyers and end up leaving guys like him a huge open door to sue for violations of these insane policies or for the city not providing the level of realistic, continuous, up to date training to work with the restrictive policy that usually go well beyond what the law actually calls for. I started to understand that the city lawyers get paid and justify their existence when we get sued, yet they are the ones who are handling writing and critiquing policy...go figure.

I started thinking about all my guys (and myself) carrying knives in violation of some antiquated policy (I finally found that ours was a 3 inch bladed or smaller carried in a basket weave pouch on the belt), or having no policy. I also knew of nobody doing any good training for in-service LEO's. I also started to think about all the issues of officers carrying a deadly weapon with no policy and no training-this needed to be addressed. Ed Noweki ridiculed me in a magazine article for this.

Think about knives and cops for a minute. I look at them as a deadly weapon that is often be carried as a last ditch weapon. Think about what many officers are carrying. An untraceable knife that was, in many cases, "liberated" from some gang member. The officer has no training, no policy, and nothing to legitimize this piece of equipment that gets used far more than they will ever fire their handgun. We have policy and provide training for flashlights, chemical agents, handcuffs, flares, and other idiotic stuff, but not knives. Doesn't really make sense.

There is also the issue of throw downs. Can you imagine in 2007 an agency okaying the carry of a "back-up" gun that was "confiscated" from a gang member, has no serial number, nobody knows you have it; there is no training or record of it, and no policy on them. In my area, after the whole LAPD affair of a few years ago with a pile of crap dirty cop, every shooting of an armed crook has some underlying insinuation that the cop threw the weapon down. I needed to find a way to protect my people from this.



The plan is hatched.

At this point I determined that the best way to handle this whole thing was to start treating the knives like guns. It’s a road we had already been down and I could put things into a workable context. My idea was then going to be to issue a high quality folder to every officer and train him or her with it just like the officers pistol. We would then allow personally owned knives for those who wanted to drop the money, and also allow high quality fixed blades to be purchased or issued to specific officers based on need...sort of like a long gun.

Along with the knives, we would create a good, realistic policy that worked in conjunction with in service training, and updates (like initial training and then qualification or updates). The policy and training would address both use of the knife as a tool and a weapon. I always tell people that the one reason that my agency doesn't get sued (once, and we won) for hitting folks with metal full size flashlights is that we train folks to use them as both a light and a weapon in warranted situations. The folks who get sued are the ones who have stupid policies saying not to hit folks with a light. Then when what we know is inevitable in the real world, some cop hits a well deserving suspect with a light, and he is both in trouble and the agency is writing a check for a "policy" violation of their own stupid rules rather than any kind of crime or civil rights violation the officer committed. I didn't want a knife policy like this, so it would have to reflect the realities of both weapon and utility usage.

The other issue I had was that I am detested as a necessary evil by the brass at my department. The Chief at the time was great, my former SWAT commander, and a cop’s cop. I was one of his boys, but I needed to be able to get through the wall to get to him. I ended up inviting the Sergeant running the training division along with the head of the firearms unit to a class Steve Tarani was putting on as a test class for California P.O.S.T. to train L/E edged weapons instructors. After the class I floated my idea past the well-liked Sergeant and asked him to sponsor the program and run it through the wall for me. He agreed with the need after I laid it out, and away we went.



The equipment

At the time, most of the guys who actually bought a knife were carrying Spyderco Delicas or Enduras. A bunch of the SWAT guys and more squared away folks had Emerson Commanders, and the Strider Fixed blades. It seemed to me at the time that the best set-up for general issue was to go with an Emerson folder for issue and issue Strider fixed blades to those in specialized details who needed them. I would also allow the carry of personally owned Emerson’s or Striders as long as they were documented with the training unit that the officers were carrying them, and that they could be identified as to what officer had the knife (SN#, scribed, etc.).

I wanted a definitive set of features for the issue knife.

USA made and easily serviced by a reputable company-Emerson fit the bill perfectly. If there was any problem, we wanted it fixed, and fixed quick with domestic parts. We also like supporting our country.

Wave opening feature-Again, Emerson. For the use of a folder for police use, they are often needed in a crisis. During a crisis deployment (for emergency rescue, or as a last ditch weapon, one handed rapid opening without going to a auto was imperative).

Multiple carry options-Emerson agreed to drill the knives on both sides for multiple carry options for a large department order. This would allow for the squared away folks to have support hand access, others could put it where it was convenient, and the folks who shouldn't have a gun and are scared of things like this could just clip it inside their trauma plate pocket of their vest or whatever makes them happy.

Serial numbers and Dept. name on the blade-this was also factored in by the Emerson folks. I did not want a situation where there was ever a question of whose knife it was, and that it was issued gear. Here is why (THIS IS IMPORTANT). Based on what I learned from the plaintiff attorney is that they are out for big money from deep pockets for policy violations.... so how do we protect the officer from that? We protect the agency (stay with me here). If a an officer is involved in a shooting and claims the suspect had a knife, then you can bet the bad guys attorney is going to claim the officer threw the knife down. In most cases it just adds another "issue" to the lawsuit or PR campaign. My idea was to nip this in the bud and make the BG's attorneys work for that one for free. With issued serial numbered knives, this was a simple process. If the knife recovered at a shooting scene had our agency name and serial number on it, then it was taken from the officer, or it was thrown down. This should be addressed within the first contact with the officer at the scene ("he took my knife and opened it during a fight and attacked me, so I shot him to stop him from trying to kill me"). If the knife is not an issued knife, then one of two things occurred-it was the bad guys, or you have a bad apple cop who threw it down.

The key here is that the agency has protected itself. The officer was issued a knife and trained with it. The officer is not allowed to have a knife that the department isn't aware of on duty (in fact they are required to carry one in uniform), so the department has essentially done due diligence and the other side is going to have to step up and really make some serious criminal allegations against the individual officer. The key here is that it is a win for everyone. If the cop did throw the knife down, then he is a bad apple and should be fired and prosecuted. On the other hand, there is no money in this angle now. The other side really does not want to go after the individual officer because he has no money (probably on the third marriage, lots of child support, and in debt up to his/her ears anyways). Again, this is just a protection for the agency just by doing things right to protect everyone. The agency looks much better in the process by doing the right thing from the start. As a side note-I was given a dressing down by a very jealous Captain who hates me for having this issue come up in print (police magazine article), until I reminded him of a specific case in which one of our own officers was fired for claiming a suspect had a knife when he fired at him (luckily missed), and it turns out he made the knife part up to cover up what was probably an ND after a foot chase...that shut up the pogue, and I get another year working Graveyard patrol.

I wanted a knife that would be a good utility cutter for seatbelts, rope, clothing, which would also make it a good "bio mechanical cutter" in order to excel at destroying those muscles and ligaments that are controlling actions that we wanted to stop in a weapon retention case. We did not want anything that could ever be referred to as a "killing or fighting" knife in court by a SME. We wanted a blade that was constructed with a blade shape that would make it very difficult to get through body armor in case an officer was disarmed (similar idea of not carry a handgun load that will penetrate your own vest). I did not want a stabber. Again, our primary goal was for a tool that could be pressed into service as a weapon, not the other way around.

I wanted a blade that was totally dull and rounded on the top so officers would not cut themselves in a crisis. We have found over the years that many of our stabbing suspects are easily identified by having cuts on them that are self-inflicted accidentally during attacks. In both emergency utility cutting cases and as a weapon, things get ugly in close and we wanted to minimize the Murphy issues. We also required something with a well-designed handle for both forward and reverse grip that would allow exceptional control on the knife when things were going bad.

Corrosion resistance was needed, and we decided that hard chrome over stainless would be the way to go.

We also wanted something that was innocuous in the name and very court and media defensible.

We also wanted something proven. What we ended up with was using an Emerson SARK (Search and Rescue knife) that was designed for Navy rescue divers. The only difference is that we wanted it sharpened all the way to the tip. The Navy knife has a dull tip for clothes cutting around an injured victim and for cutting bootlaces on subjects under water. We wanted a sharp tip for the possible anti personnel role that the knife may face for our people. At the time there was a reported variation on the SARK with an edge sharpened to the tip that was being referred to as a "P" SARK (pointy). Well, we just worked with the Emerson folks (specifically Ernie Emerson and Derek Russell) and came up with what was spec'd as the P-SARK (Police Search and Rescue Knife). This had every feature we wanted with the benefit of already being in production (need only minor modifications) and already had a US Government contract as a "rescue" knife. The tool was now decided upon.

We also spent a ton of time with our Emerson team on coming up with training knives for our instructors, armorers kits so we could maintain the knives, and initial training by Ernie and Derek for our instructors as well as the weaponless defense, and some range folks.

I just want to state here that all of the work done on the policy side and setting this initial proposal up and the stuff listed above was groundbreaking at the time and was done 100% in house by myself and the Emerson team and assisted by a couple Sergeants in our department. While I received a bunch of outside training from others (who were credited above) on knife usage and defense, putting a full boat L/E program together was done without assistance or copying from anyone else. I mention this because there have been cases where I have sent info on our policy and training to others who have then led others to believe that they came up with it, or developed it (seems to be a common theme these days). Use it to your hearts content, but just remember where it came from. I devoted years of work to this project. It is both annoying and tactless when a guy comes up to a knife manufacturers table at a show where I am working without a nametag and proceeds to tell the people there about all the cutting edge L/E knife program stuff that HE has put together and of course wanting free stuff. The problem comes in when I had sent this guy everything I had done via e-mail several months prior....

I'll continue with how this was sold to all the different levels with both Agency people and City government. This was a very delicate process. I'll also deal with initial implementation and the good, the bad, and the ugly of the program. I am also trying to get a full copy of the policy that I can post.


The "Big sell".

The first place I really needed to get this thing going was with the department brass. In my case my best shot was going to be the actual Chief. In a stroke of political genius (this will back-fire later in the story) was by having the mid level involvement from the training Sgt. He happened to know the precise moment when, for whatever reason, both the Captain in charge of training and the Deputy Chief would both be out of town. He set up a meeting with the chief for us during this time so that there would be no chain of command violation by going straight to the top.

The day came for my sales pitch. I had a rough policy, a demo knife, I was ready to rock...........then it happened. A moment of macho stupidity. One of our SWAT guys was carrying an Emerson Commander (many of our "top 10%" ers were carrying Commanders, as was our Chief at my urging). We also had this tradition of having little speed competitions to keep us fast on our draws on our folders. Well, this guy strolls into the training office and looks at me and rips his Commander out using the "Wave" feature to deploy it. I of course tell him that he is so slow that I could beat him with a regular blade without a "Wave". He calls "bullsh*t", and its on. I was commonly carrying a very cool Emerson custom Viper 1 in my back pocket. It is a small handled knife with a huge blade to handle ratio, and mine was scalpel sharp. He yells go, I begin my draw and I am going so fast that the blade is actually opening faster than my purchase on the thumb disk and my thumb is now riding down the blade till it locked open..............I won, but I instantly transferred the knife to my left hand to close and put away and pinched my thumb and index finger together as hard as I could as I knew this was a deep cut on my thumb pad. I told the training Sergeant that I need to go to the bathroom.... he asked if I was okay and I said "actually, I just cut the sh*t out of my thumb".........he was pissed, and rightfully so.

I went to the men's locker room and grabbed some paper towels and stood over the sink as I released my fingers. I was elated, there was just a thin line down my thumb, and no blood..........for a second, and then this huge gapping gash appears, and I am bleeding like a stuck pig. I stopped the bleeding as best I could, ran to the range and bandaged my thumb with a bunch of tape, band-aids, and gauze. I returned to the training office with this big white thing on my thumb. The Sergeant was now seething and said the Chief just called him and wanted to push the meeting up a half hour so he could go to patrol briefing and he wanted us to go with him...

We met him in briefing and I sat next to the Chief hiding my thumb. I could just hear it "hey Bolke, what happened to your thumb....". "Oh its nothing Chief, I was screwing around with a knife and cut the piss out of myself...oh yea, I wanted to talk to you about a knife policy....". This was bad. After a few minutes, my whole thumb was saturated with blood as it was bleeding through the bandage. There was going to be no way to hide this mess. Then a miracle happened...my pager went off. I had an excuse to get out of the room. I got to the range undetected, and began raiding the gunshot kit again. I was finally able to get the bleeding controlled just in time to meet the Chief at the stairs up to his office.

The Chief, Training Sergeant and I all went to his office. I explained our purpose and started my sales pitch. Within a few minutes the Chief asked his first question. "Don't we already have some sort of policy"? My response, "yes Chief, a sub 3" bladed folder carried in a basket weave pouch, a policy that you have been violating yourself by carrying your Emerson Commander". Luckily, I knew the Chief loved his Commander, and had almost caused an international incident by refusing to give it up when he was caught at a Chiefs conference in England illegally carrying it. His response was a predictable "well, we need to fix that policy". I got into the whole lawsuit defense, and the next question "how can we control what knives these guys are carrying, the union will kill me if I require the guys to buy an expensive knife". My response, "we are going to control it by having you buy the knives and issuing them and requiring the officers to carry them as issued safety equipment". The long stare came and my heart sank as he said, "well, I've heard enough". Just as I was going to protest that I was only halfway through my presentation, he reached in his drawer, and got out his calculator. "What's this going to cost me"? I gave him the numbers and he said that if I could get the price under a specified amount that was under the limit that he could spend without City Council approval, we were good to go. My jaw dropped, and I left with the training sergeant to call the Emerson people. I was also relieved to have escaped without the "what happened to your thumb question". I also got kudos from the training sergeant on a great pitch.

I worked out a deal to exchange some training assistance on our end and P.O.S.T. course work, as well as using our in house instructors to teach the training that we were originally going to have the Emerson people do and we were able to get the cost to what we needed. I called the Chief, and he said it was a done deal.

Sounds easy..............it was until the Deputy Chief and the Captain returned to town.

The saga continues............So the Chief okays everything and I'm overjoyed, the Emerson folks are on board and the whole world is delicious.........until the next staff meeting.

The Chief announces the knife program, and of course, none of the upper echelon brass knows a thing about it. Then the "there is no way we are letting Bolke teach knife fighting" stuff, and the Captains override the Chief (I never did understand how that happened). The program is instantly tanked.

The training Sergeant was able to intervene later after I blew a gasket. He set up a meeting with the Chief, all the Captains, and both Internal Affairs Sergeants (pre Lt's.).

I went into the meeting and did my thing. I knew that the IA sergeants had been to training with Missy O'Linn, so I knew they were aware that we were lacking on policy. After my presentation I was really able to focus on the tool aspect of the knives and cover the defensive aspect as a last ditch option (which is where it should be).

A couple of interesting questions arose. In the original policy I wrote, officers would be allowed to carry several listed Emerson knives by model. This was done because the Commanders and CQC 7's were very popular with the more squared away guys and most of our SWAT team. This would allow them to carry their personally owned knives if they wanted. One of the Captains asked what CQC stood for. I am not one to tell a lie, so I told him "Close Quarters Combat". He shot this part of the policy down right then and there and said we would only issue the P-Shark’s and they would be the only folders allowed. Another Captain asked, "why not just disallow the carry of any knives at all" due to me making a great case for the need for both policy and training. I knew that she had just got back from NY where she went to see Ground Zero (rather than prepare our folks for terrorist threats, admin likes photo ops and exploratory trips....). I lit in about the potential for terrorist activities in our city and the amount of potential for possible rescue in our city in a natural disaster (earthquake) or terrorist incident (our airport was an alternate target for the 2000 plot uncovered at the Canadian border in Washington). I asked the Captain if she thought it was prudent to take important tools away from our first responders who may need a high quality tool to dig their partners or citizens out of rubble. I laid in hard on this one, and she immediately backed off. This also allowed me to keep the part of the policy that allowed for fixed blade knives to be used for those who wanted tools capable of being used for crisis cutting and breaching and rescue. Our Aircrews were all issued Strider DB's and the Strider fixed blades were very popular with our SWAT guys. The fixed blades got in because of me making the case of possible digging and prying needs based on the 9/11 attacks.

The Internal Affairs folks were actually pretty good and were able to grasp the importance of doing the whole program and not half assing it. When all was said and done and all the assurances taken care of I was off..............or so I thought. I then got some resistance from a very strange place-some patrol cops and union guys. Stay tuned.

Strange enemies..............

The program was now on again. I will get into the initial training next installment, but I ran into an unexpected glitch from my own people.

Several of the union guys got all pissed that we were spending money on a "stupid" knife program when their pet projects weren't being funded. Well gee whiz ass clowns, I'm sorry. I am one of these guys who sacrificed career success pushing for many years for things I thought were important in saving lives. Modern Technique based firearms training, patrol rifles, Vang fighting shotguns, etc. I never got any union support and had to implement all of these programs with a fight by myself (and made a ton of enemies along the way along with career suicide). All have saved lives and made our folks better able to get home safely, and then keeping those homes by not getting sued. I felt strongly about this program, and I took the hits to get it through without having to "make a deal" like the union guys were notorious for to get my little pet project done (of course I didn't get a "special award" for my programs like all the other suck asses get). I held my ground with the union and basically stressed the importance of better safety equipment and very needed training. Remember, my folks would be getting a deep understanding of dealing with edged weapon threats along with using knives on their own. I think they understood that fighting this was going to make them look stupid and petty in the end.

For what its worth, I was voted onto the union board without running any campaign (just threw my name into the hat) by the highest margin ever by the quiet co-workers who finally got the chance to vote for a guy who was out to fight for them and not to get promoted. Its this kind of thing that makes all the crap seem worth it.

I also got some heat from "those guys" over not wanting to be responsible for an expensive knife if they loose it. I just flat lost it with this crowd. I work my tail off to issue $190.00 folders to everyone that they would never buy themselves, and they are concerned about actually taking care of it...........

I countered these folks with an offer to not make them carry a good knife if they would also give up their issued Sig Sauer pistol in exchange for a Raven .25 auto as they obviously could not care for high quality safety equipment. Nobody took me up on getting them an exemption.

At this point I had everyone either convinced, or pissed at me. A final policy was written and passed onto the city attorney's after everyone was prepped on how to counter these folks.

We made arrangements for Ernie Emerson and Derek Russell to come out to our P.D. and conduct training for a large group of use of force instructors. This went along with POST certifying the Emerson course and for getting everyone on board with the training. Derek also got some Armorers kits put together for us so that we would be able to provide in house maintenance on the knives ourselves (sharpening, spare small parts, tensioning the blades, changing clip locations, etc....). This class was an eye opener for everybody involved and worked well for increasing the instructor knowledge for our in -house people who had never been exposed to this kind of training in typical POST classes that they had been sent to.

We were able to get our knives delivered and had to find a way to issue them and provide the initial training. We decided that since most of the officers we were giving knives to had been using knives for their entire lives (cutting food, boxes, and other basic chores), so we would be okay in limiting the initial training to very specific training geared towards the P-SARK itself. We decided that we would pull groups of officers aside during our quarterly range training and give a brief (about an hour) class on the P-SARk that covered safe operation, history, different ways to hold the knife for specific chores (cutting seatbelts by protecting the victim from the tip, taking out a splinter, cutting rope and other similar items, and typical holds used for self defense. We also covered some brief items on biomechanical cutting techniques to stop an attack or ground an opponent. We also covered carry options and how to deploy the knife. Most of the response was fairly positive. We could also weed those out who were either scared of the knife, or totally ambivolous to the whole thing. For those folks we basically said to clip it in their body armor, and forget about it. Our policy required on duty carry in uniform, so we figured this would comply with the policy and not be a burden to the non-starters.

This was essentially a basic introduction and we planned on a more in-depth course during annual advanced officer training.

Chuck Haggard
10-19-2015, 02:35 PM
There is zero reason for any knife in law enforcement.

I assume he also means for any purpose. I'll throw out that I have cut two people out of seat belts in my career, once cut myself out of a seatbelt after a crash, and listened in when two other officers were on the radio screaming for someone with a knife to get there quickly, once when some drunks were in a car that was starting to catch fire after a wreck, once when we had an officer trapped in our crashed chopper. I never want to be those guys screaming on the radio.

Kukuforguns
10-20-2015, 02:48 PM
I assume he also means for any purpose. I'll throw out that I have cut two people out of seat belts in my career, once cut myself out of a seatbelt after a crash, and listened in when two other officers were on the radio screaming for someone with a knife to get there quickly, once when some drunks were in a car that was starting to catch fire after a wreck, once when we had an officer trapped in our crashed chopper. I never want to be those guys screaming on the radio.
I started carrying a knife again after I read a report of an infant who burned to death in its car seat because no one had a knife. Later, my wife drove by an MVA with a similar result. I do not want to live with the sound of a child burning to death in my memory for the rest of my life. I've never had to use it for that purpose, but I regularly use it for any number of mundane reasons.

Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk

tusk212
10-20-2015, 07:54 PM
I ALWAYS have a knife on me (usually an Emerson of some type). I've used it at least 3 times on duty to remove clothing to place an AED on someone, one of them being a 1 1/2 year old that fell into a decretive pond in his grandparent's backyard.

Gadfly
10-21-2015, 10:36 AM
Nyeti, that was a long read, but a good read. I appreciate you taking the time to write it.

We (DHS) do not have a written knife policy that I can find.

The majority of agents carry knives. There are plenty of Spyderco/Benchmade/ZT floating around, and also some $15 crap blades.

I settled on a Kershaw Blur after trying/breaking/losing more expensive blades. This Kershaw has been with me for 8+ years, and has had the spring replaced once (free warranty work) and the blade replaced after I broke the tip off ($10 to replace w brand new blade)...

Nephrology
10-21-2015, 10:58 AM
I started carrying a knife again after I read a report of an infant who burned to death in its car seat because no one had a knife. Later, my wife drove by an MVA with a similar result. I do not want to live with the sound of a child burning to death in my memory for the rest of my life. I've never had to use it for that purpose, but I regularly use it for any number of mundane reasons.

Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk

I highly recommend one of these, too...

http://resqme.com/resqme/

SamAdams
10-21-2015, 01:40 PM
I'm not in LE (am a Wilderness First Responder). Used my folder to cut a couple of people from their seat belts when coming up on a very bad car accident. (And their late model Caddie airbags didn't deploy). Carrying a solid knife is an ingrained habit.

Kukuforguns
10-21-2015, 02:39 PM
I highly recommend one of these, too...

http://resqme.com/resqme/

http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/07/11/1220d81ebd8af59d75ba52c6498eeaa4.jpg

Bigguy
10-21-2015, 08:13 PM
Also not LE. I scuba dived a good bit in college. You couldn't have driven me into the water without a quality dive knife with a gun to my head. I grew up in the rivers and ox bows of southeast Arkansas. I've lost too many trot lines and nets to feel comfortable about being underwater without a way to cut myself out of trouble. Imagine running low on air with a tribble hook with the line wrapped around a tree in you arm. I was surprised on one dive when my dive partner didn't understand my trepidation at enter the water when I couldn't find my knife. We were diving in fresh water and he made some comment about how unlikely it was we'd run into jaws. I lost a lot of confidence in him as a dive partner when I realized he didn't understand the true purpose of a dive knife, or the actual danger we faced.

GRV
10-23-2015, 11:03 AM
[snip]

Holy crap. Excellent post, man. This was more valuable to me than I can put in words here. Thank you.

nyeti, a brief aside, would you still vet the P-SARK as the first choice for a general purpose LE patrol folder? Or, has something better come along? Two things that cross my mind, 1) You mention a ton of prying work in your experience, which the P-SARK doesn't seem suited to at first glance (let's assume a brick-shithouse fixed blade will not be available) and 2) it sounds like the P-SARK choice was crafted from the perspective of a large department issuing knives by policy, as opposed to purchased individually by an officer with authorization (my question is framed by the latter perspective).

Dagga Boy
10-23-2015, 04:51 PM
Holy crap. Excellent post, man. This was more valuable to me than I can put in words here. Thank you.

nyeti, a brief aside, would you still vet the P-SARK as the first choice for a general purpose LE patrol folder? Or, has something better come along? Two things that cross my mind, 1) You mention a ton of prying work in your experience, which the P-SARK doesn't seem suited to at first glance (let's assume a brick-shithouse fixed blade will not be available) and 2) it sounds like the P-SARK choice was crafted from the perspective of a large department issuing knives by policy, as opposed to purchased individually by an officer with authorization (my question is framed by the latter perspective).


I daily carry a Strider SMF. As far as production knives I am very partial to the ZT 560/561. The strider is a pry machine. I (along with many of our officers) supplemented the Emerson PSark with Strider DB's (which I designed with Strider Knives as an urban police knife). The folder is used to cut things and the fixed blade to break things.

SamAdams
10-24-2015, 09:33 AM
@nyeti - great post

" During a crisis deployment (for emergency rescue, or as a last ditch weapon, one handed rapid opening without going to a auto was imperative). "

I was curious if/why autos were prohibited in your specs back then ? There are quite a few 'wave' type options out there now, but was Emerson the only maker offering it during the time mentioned in your post ?

Beat Trash
10-24-2015, 09:46 AM
I carried a 5" Cold Steel for many years. When I got engaged to my second wife about 4 years ago, she bought me a Zero Tolerance 303 as an engagement present. She knows little to nothing about knives for LE, but this is the knife used by the character, "Gibbs" on the TV show, NCIS. When she gave it to me, I smiled and said, "Thanks". My thoughts were that this thing weighs a ton. But I carried it to work the next day.

I have to admit that I love this knife as a uniformed LEO. Easy to open with one hand and solid. I carry it clipped inside of my weak side front pocket. And I do not notice the weight of this at all.

I have to admit that this knife will finish out my career with me.

Dagga Boy
10-24-2015, 10:14 AM
@nyeti - great post

" During a crisis deployment (for emergency rescue, or as a last ditch weapon, one handed rapid opening without going to a auto was imperative). "

I was curious if/why autos were prohibited in your specs back then ? There are quite a few 'wave' type options out there now, but was Emerson the only maker offering it during the time mentioned in your post ?

I have spent a bunch of time with auto's. Here is reality, they are not "faster". They are more complex, and they bring about a bunch of legal issues. They tend to be illegal in a bunch of places and have a very negative connotation amongst the uninformed. I have also concluded the wave is not really a sure thing either. If it was up to me, a fixed blade is the way to go, but not always practical. These days, I can open my folders with one hand, but I actually use a two handed opening that is both fast, and very reliable. It is also very safe.

Also, we had some injuries with knives opening in pockets that were very minor. The way many of the knives were carried could have been a major issue with an auto. The best place I see for an auto is like my best friend who has only one hand and that doesn't have a lot of working fingers. He normally wears an exposed neck knife that he uses a lot, but I also gave him some auto's which do work okay for him. He is a very dedicated user, and has millions of your tax dollars invested in his training. Very different from an issue knife for today's police officer.

Totem Polar
11-08-2015, 04:03 PM
Nevermind. already way discussed