Michigan State Police dropping.40 P226s, moving to Glock 17s [Archive]

LittleLebowski

10-08-2015, 08:35 AM

http://www.wwmt.com/news/features/state/stories/Michigan-State-Police-to-switch-to-Glock-17-9mm-weapon-216009.shtml#.Vhaa7ysuiwW

Not much of an article.

Michigan State Police are making the transition to a new weapon system.

They say it's a major step in keeping up with technology.

Over the past two-and-a-half years, state police have researched and tested over 39 different weapons.

Now, they're in the process of switching to the Glock 17 9mm.

But before they can make the switch, every officer must go through intense training.

"10 hours were good, long, serious, no nonsense, because you know police officers go to work every day not knowing if they're going to save a life, take a life, or give their own life," said Captain John Halpin, the Michigan State Police 8th District Commander.

State Police say the switch will be more affordable in the long run, and easier to maintain.

BehindBlueI's

10-08-2015, 08:44 AM

State Police say the switch will be more affordable in the long run, and easier to maintain.

Wow, the honesty. No "it's the best choice for the types of shooting scenarios our officers find themselves in", just "it's cheaper."

Peally

10-08-2015, 08:45 AM

At least they're honest. Meh, both pistols work fine, if one is cheaper and fills their mission I say go for it.

HCM

10-08-2015, 08:57 AM

Wow MSP has been using P -226's for a LONG time, since the 1980's.

Kyle Reese

10-08-2015, 09:16 AM

Excellent choice.

JHC

10-08-2015, 09:26 AM

Excellent choice.

I don't get it. It's such a dated design in this day and age of greater "ergos" and superior triggers. ;)

Up1911Fan

10-08-2015, 09:28 AM

Some Troopers are already switched over, rumor has it they'll be getting G43's to replace the 640's they have as BUG's as well. I was at MSP headquarters 3 years ago and their firearms instructors were carrying 9mm Glock's then, so this has been awhile in the making.

jnc36rcpd

10-08-2015, 09:52 AM

The video actually has more detail than the written article.

Beat Trash

10-08-2015, 10:02 AM

Excellent choice. I'm sure that the cost savings for the guns is attractive. The annual cost savings in the difference between 40 cal and 9mm training ammunition is substantial enough to be noteworthy.

HCM

10-08-2015, 10:27 AM

In the video they appear to be shooting either Glock 26s or Glock 43's. It also appears one of the officers is getting brass bounced off his fore head...,,

MGW

10-08-2015, 10:41 AM

Up1911Fan

10-08-2015, 10:50 AM

Anxiously awaiting police trade in 640 ads.

I don't think you'll see any. Typically, the Troopers get first crack to buy their gun, whatever's left usually goes to MI Police Equipment in Lansing, i've never seen them advertise.

ACP230

10-08-2015, 11:06 AM

On me as I write is a former MSP bug.

It's one of the S&W M38s made in the 1970s. It was made with a stainless
cylinder rather then the steel one of a regular M38.

I bought it from a dealer in Kentucky a long time ago. I think they told me that their
supplier was MI Police Equipment in Lansing. So the M640s might show up.

MGW

10-08-2015, 11:54 AM

I don't think you'll see any. Typically, the Troopers get first crack to buy their gun, whatever's left usually goes to MI Police Equipment in Lansing, i've never seen them advertise.

I've always wanted a 640. No particular reason. Having one that was formally an issued BUG would add to the cool factor for me.

So anyway, don't be such a dream killer [emoji6]

LSP972

10-08-2015, 12:00 PM

On me as I write is a former MSP bug.

It's one of the S&W M38s made in the 1970s. It was made with a stainless
cylinder rather then the steel one of a regular M38.

.

AKA the "Pinto". At first (don't remember the exact date, but it was in the 70s), those were issued along with uniform trousers that had the front pockets lined with leather. The idea was that each trooper would carry the 638 in his off-side front pocket as a BUG. Simply ingenious. That innovation survived until the next superintendent came along, who nixed it.

The Michigan trooper I met at the Nationals who was telling me all about this planted a seed. When I got back to work, I had an opportunity to float the idea to our deputy superintendent, who told me to do a short staff study- namely, how much would it cost- and get back to him.

At that time our uniform vendor was the Fecheimer(sp?) Company in New York. The cost they quoted for several thousand pair of uniform trousers with leather-lined front pockets was positively frightful. Combined with the cost of the guns, the additional .38 ammunition that would be needed, a day of training, etc., all added up to six figures. I didn't even bother to bring that to the colonel; he would have had me committed. LSP552 can verify this; that man did NOT play when it came to department resources.

Too bad, because this is a splendid, easy-to-implement concept that has real utility.

FWIW, S&W made those Pinto J frames for some other specialty outlets (John Jovino, for one) as well. You don't see one very often, because folks tend to hang on to them. Neat little revolvers...

.

LSP552

10-08-2015, 01:02 PM

At that time our uniform vendor was the Fecheimer(sp?) Company in New York. The cost they quoted for several thousand pair of uniform trousers with leather-lined front pockets was positively frightful. Combined with the cost of the guns, the additional .38 ammunition that would be needed, a day of training, etc., all added up to six figures. I didn't even bother to bring that to the colonel; he would have had me committed. LSP552 can verify this; that man did NOT play when it came to department resources.

Too bad, because this is a splendid, easy-to-implement concept that has real utility.

.

Budget priorities and small-minded people have killed many a good idea.

LSP972

10-08-2015, 01:19 PM

Budget priorities and small-minded people have killed many a good idea.

True; but you managed to convince him to spring large for the re-vamped SWAT program. Hell, we practically had a blank check. I still have no clue how you managed that; and I think now, I'm better off not knowing...;)

.

10-08-2015, 01:41 PM

I don't get it. It's such a dated design in this day and age of greater "ergos" and superior triggers. ;)

I see what you did there. :cool:

psalms144.1

10-08-2015, 01:50 PM

As much as I'm always looking for the next "Glock killer" to get the Glock out of my holster, and of all the 9mm glocks, the G17 is the only model I neither own nor plan on buying, it's REALLY hard for me to come up with a better choice for uniformed carry. Size/weight/capacity are unmatched (except by the M&P-9 with it's unfortunate track record for accuracy issues). Plain clothes can get G19s or G26s, and feed them off the same magazines as "standard" with no problems. If you've got tactical kool kids who HAVE TO have something special in their holsters, the G34 uses all the same controls and magazines.

The only nit I'd pick with this decision is the G43 for a BUG over the G26. I get that the G26 isn't pocketable easily, but, IMHO, the G43 isn't "smaller" enough to give up the exceptional shootability that the G26 offers.

GJM

10-08-2015, 02:08 PM

Clearly, this decision was made before they saw the P series Legion new marketing vid.

Mr_White

10-08-2015, 02:14 PM

one of the officers is getting brass bounced off his fore head...,,

The BTF is to remind flinchers, "HEY DUMMY STOP FLINCHING!"

LSP552

10-08-2015, 02:24 PM

It's the Glock Perfection replacement for ball and dummy drills.

BehindBlueI's

10-08-2015, 02:52 PM

The BTF is to remind flinchers, "HEY DUMMY STOP FLINCHING!"

It's not a bug, it's a feature. For reloaders, you can wear a net on the bill of your hat and never have to bend over for brass again!

breakingtime91

10-08-2015, 02:52 PM

In the video they appear to be shooting either Glock 26s or Glock 43's. It also appears one of the officers is getting brass bounced off his fore head...,,

sure does.. I like how we went a full page without anyone mentioning it lol

Dave Williams

10-08-2015, 09:39 PM

I've been following the MSP on Facebook, there are a bunch of pics of the recent Trooper class training with the Glocks. Good thumb forward isosceles shooting stances. Also issuing TLR-1s and G26 BUGs. It's pretty hard to argue with an issue G17/G26 combo. My dept has had real good luck with our Gen4 G17/19s. Huge agency loss for Sig.

Luke

10-08-2015, 10:07 PM

Wonder when they'll change there sales pitch.

3999

Sammy1

10-09-2015, 06:21 AM

Keeping up with technology? Hey guys the G17 has been around for a long time! In the video it looked like they were firing G26s.

Sasage

10-09-2015, 07:42 AM

Grand Rapids MI PD also made the switch to Glock.

MSP Sigs had the DAK trigger.

Gary1911A1

10-09-2015, 10:09 AM

psalms144.1

10-09-2015, 11:50 AM

Really don't understand them going to the17 when the 19 will be more comfortable, less wear and tear on car seats, and allow the officer more of an option in off duty carry than just the 26. What am I missing? Same with NYPD going from the 19 to the 17. Do they think they will shoot better with a longer sight radis?I VASTLY prefer the G19 over the G17 myself, but I'll admit that there are lots and lots of people I know who feel the G19 grip is "too short" while the G17 is "just right." Another advantage of the G17, at least IMHO, is the finger-groove spacing - I have to file off the finger grooves on all my compact Glock frames, but the G17 finger grooves are not a problem...

GJM

10-09-2015, 12:03 PM

I personally much prefer a 226 to a Glock, but if I was making the decision and paying the bills, a Gen 4 17 in an ALS holster sure seems like a no brainer for them.

10-09-2015, 12:56 PM

Keeping up with technology? Hey guys the G17 has been around for a long time! In the video it looked like they were firing G26s.

4012

:cool: :)

Sammy1

10-09-2015, 02:53 PM

For uniformed holster carry the choice between fullsize and compact is easy, go full size. Even the FBI has gone with the full size and they are plain clothes.

Dave Williams

10-09-2015, 06:22 PM

Almost everyone at my pd chooses the G17 over the G19 for open uniform carry. They find its easier to shoot well.

S Jenks

10-09-2015, 06:41 PM

We're going from a mix of 22s and 23s to 17s in the next month. One reason we decided to standardize on the larger frame is because New England winter temps often require gloves, even on short traffic stops. We are a beach community and the wind can be relentless coming off the ocean. The smaller frame is a bit too crowded for anything thicker than pat-down gloves.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Sammy1

10-09-2015, 07:11 PM

xray 99

10-10-2015, 03:21 AM

Did MSP look at the 320 and find it unsatisfactory?

Sammy1

10-10-2015, 06:06 AM

Did MSP look at the 320 and find it unsatisfactory?

Good question. They were married to Sig for some time now.

John Hearne

10-10-2015, 07:16 AM

I doubt it. The P320 is designed to win LE contracts and has several advantages which the Glock lacks, especially in the modern LE world.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G900A using Tapatalk

JBP55

10-10-2015, 08:24 AM

I doubt it. The P320 is designed to win LE contracts and has several advantages which the Glock lacks, especially in the modern LE world.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G900A using Tapatalk

If you are referring to changing frame sizes with the same barrel/slide I disagree. The cost is too close to buying a complete new LEO Sig.

BehindBlueI's

10-10-2015, 08:59 AM

If you are referring to changing frame sizes with the same barrel/slide I disagree. The cost is too close to buying a complete new LEO Sig.

The ability to break it down without pulling the trigger should be a big advantage.

Beat Trash

10-10-2015, 09:05 AM

If you are referring to changing frame sizes with the same barrel/slide I disagree. The cost is too close to buying a complete new LEO Sig.

I agree with you if the argument is changing frame sizes and slide/barrel sizes with the same issued serialized unit.

Where the Sig 320 can make inroads in the LE sales is the ability to disassemble without pulling the trigger, and with the newly released option for LE sales of a magazine disconnect safety. My agency would never consider dumping the M&P unless we could get a magazine disconnect. We have two documented officer saves because of the feature. Of course the earliest one was at least 15 years ago. And there was more to the story (shocking, I know).

If I were outfitting a large agency, the Gen4 Glock 17 would be on the top of a very short list. Along with the ALS holster to put it in.

When dealing with New England winters like S Jenks' agency is, the full size Glock 17 makes sense. But I would be very tempted to use a Glock 19 as a BUG if I were with his agency.

stingray

10-10-2015, 09:22 AM

"They say it's a major step in keeping up with technology."

Interesting since the Glock 17 has been around since the mid 80's. Wonder what technology they are talking about. :-)

BJJ

10-10-2015, 09:27 AM

"They say it's a major step in keeping up with technology."

Interesting since the Glock 17 has been around since the mid 80's. Wonder what technology they are talking about. :-)

Maybe ammunition technology?

stingray

10-10-2015, 09:56 AM

stingray

10-10-2015, 10:11 AM

If you are referring to changing frame sizes with the same barrel/slide I disagree. The cost is too close to buying a complete new LEO Sig.

Then the difference between the cost of 9mm vs 40S&W is also too close. Yet the bean counters are endorsing the move back to 9mm. I'd say $100 per unit in savings (just a wild guess based on reported pricing) multiplied by the number of units purchased could result in significant savings. Thay means more money for them to waste elsewhere.

JBP55

10-10-2015, 10:21 AM

Then the difference between the cost of 9mm vs 40S&W is also too close. Yet the bean counters are endorsing the move back to 9mm. I'd say $100 per unit in savings (just a wild guess based on reported pricing) multiplied by the number of units purchased could result in significant savings. Thay means more money for them to waste elsewhere.

The 9mm holds more rounds, is easier to shoot well, quicker back on target, easier to train new recruits, ammunition is slightly less expensive, with little difference in the end result when shooting a human.

Kyle Reese

10-10-2015, 10:39 AM

Anyone know what the 9mm duty load will be?

stingray

10-10-2015, 05:49 PM

The 9mm holds more rounds, is easier to shoot well, quicker back on target, easier to train new recruits, ammunition is slightly less expensive, with little difference in the end result when shooting a human.

You stated the cost was too close to buying a complete new gun. I pointed out the cost savings could be significant depending on the number of units purchased. I used the cost difference between calibers as an illustration of my point.

MVS

10-10-2015, 07:04 PM

Anyone know what the 9mm duty load will be?

I am guessing it won't be the 9mm load they used to use, the Federal BPLE +P+. The department I was with back then copied all of our equipment from MSP so we used that round as well. Had very good luck with it on the street. Of course it is quite dated these days, that was back in the 90's.

John Hearne

10-11-2015, 10:37 AM

If you are referring to changing frame sizes with the same barrel/slide I disagree. The cost is too close to buying a complete new LEO Sig.

The grip frame/slide is only a small part of it. For starters, the dis-assembly is more conscript friendly. No need to release the striker and you can't actuate the takedown lever with a magazine in place. You literally have to clear the pistol to take it apart. The P320 has ambidextrous slide catch levers making it very left handed friendly. Also, the "small" grip fame of the P320 is really small. Way smaller than the Glock will ever be, especially since you're taking thicker plastic magazines versus thinner steel magazines.

JBP55

10-11-2015, 12:42 PM

The grip frame/slide is only a small part of it. For starters, the dis-assembly is more conscript friendly. No need to release the striker and you can't actuate the takedown lever with a magazine in place. You literally have to clear the pistol to take it apart. The P320 has ambidextrous slide catch levers making it very left handed friendly. Also, the "small" grip fame of the P320 is really small. Way smaller than the Glock will ever be, especially since you're taking thicker plastic magazines versus thinner steel magazines.

Had one and still prefer Glocks.

GJM

10-11-2015, 12:51 PM

If not now, within a year or two, I bet a PF dollar the 320 will be the number two striker, following Glock.

JBP55

10-11-2015, 01:48 PM

If not now, within a year or two, I bet a PF dollar the 320 will be the number two striker, following Glock.

I think the HK VP Series will be chasing the P320 in sales if HK does not raise prices.

John Hearne

10-11-2015, 04:19 PM

If not now, within a year or two, I bet a PF dollar the 320 will be the number two striker, following Glock.

I realize that I am a cartridge luddite, preferring rounds that date back to 1911, but I was able to handle a full-size P320 in 45 ACP and loved it. I was comparing it to a P227, and the P320 felt much smaller, and that was without the small grip module. The P320 in 45 ACP with a manual safety could be a major game changer as well.

My only concern now is that Sig "changes the recipe." They seem to have a well-functioning, accurate gun with demonstrable advantages. If they follow their script, they'll change the design to lower manufacturing costs and totally ruin their current synergy.

GJM

10-11-2015, 04:27 PM

I realize that I am a cartridge luddite, preferring rounds that date back to 1911, but I was able to handle a full-size P320 in 45 ACP and loved it. I was comparing it to a P227, and the P320 felt much smaller, and that was without the small grip module. The P320 in 45 ACP with a manual safety could be a major game changer as well.

My only concern now is that Sig "changes the recipe." They seem to have a well-functioning, accurate gun with demonstrable advantages. If they follow their script, they'll change the design to lower manufacturing costs and totally ruin their current synergy.

I think the adaptability of the 320 is a major advantage. We live in an AR world, where we expect to switch uppers and calibers at will. The 320 is obviously available now in 9, .40, .357, .45, in a number of lower sizes, and different length barrel uppers. While the VP9 may be as good or better than any single 320 configuration, the 320 wins on all the configurations available. Wonder when they will have a .22 available?

BCL

10-11-2015, 05:05 PM

Isn't the .45 model standalone and cannot switch calibers? I read it on the Internet somewhere so it must be true.

Up1911Fan

10-11-2015, 05:24 PM

How does the MSP going to G17's have anything to due with the 320?

GJM

10-11-2015, 05:41 PM

How does the MSP going to G17's have anything to due with the 320?

Post #37.

Hey, it is PF, this is what we do.

JHC

10-11-2015, 05:52 PM

Post #37.

Hey, it is PF, this is what we do.

Surely the 320 is one of the 39 pistols they evaluated no?

xray 99

10-27-2015, 03:39 PM

Surely the 320 is one of the 39 pistols they evaluated no?

I asked as I knew that MSP was a strong SIG agency - 226 for 20+ years I think. Did they find the 320 wanting in some way?

MVS

10-27-2015, 05:00 PM

Surely the 320 is one of the 39 pistols they evaluated no?

This switch over has been happening for some time now. Academy classes were already receiving the Glocks last year IIRC. Maybe they didn't test the 320's.

heyscooter

10-31-2015, 02:48 AM

Interestingly enough, a lot of people speculate that the Bureau's new contract proposal for their new handguns is geared specifically toward the P320. The RFP document basically eliminates any current Glock on a number of fronts. Prepare to see more FLEO issued service pistols change (mainly because a bunch piggyback off of the FBI's contract).

EDIT: link for all interested - https://www.fbo.gov/utils/view?id=b572bfc31492380c0534465de4c674dc

Rex G

11-02-2015, 05:07 PM

I work for a very large PD; still a bit over 5000 sworn officers, (and shrinking,) which authorizes the S&W M&P 9/40/45, SIG P226/P229/P320, and Glock G17/G19/G23/G17/G21*. .40 S&W was the standard uniformed duty cartridge since 1997, with .45 ACP added in late 2012, and 9mm added mere weeks ago. I had been anticipating the 9mm since 2012, buying a pre-owned but pristine Gen3 G17 upon learning that the proposal, with the strong backing of the FTU, had been put on the chief's desk. I had to be patient, for duty carry, but started carrying the G17 during personal time, adding a pair of Gen4 G19 pistols.

The 9mm G17 is a career-extender for me. I had considered retiring before my October qual. My aging, aching, formerly-stronger hand/wrist was being tortured by the snappy .40 recoil, combined with the higher SIG bore axis exerting increased leverage. Now, qual is fun again. I am not the only older officer switching to 9mm. It is good to be able to train mostly with street-relevant ammo again. (Nothing wrong with sub-caliber training, but some amount of training really needs to be with ammo that recoils like one's duty ammo.)

FWIW, I actually shoot SIG a bit better than Glock. I switched from G22 to P229 in 2004, for that reason. The difference is small enough, however, that I am not losing sleep over returning to Glocks.

*Interestingly, the 1911, for duty, will make a come-back, starting in in 2016, though it will require a training/certification class. Notably, however, the administration will change in January, so this could be shelved.

JonInWA

11-02-2015, 07:21 PM

Despite the adapatability of the SIG P320, one area that Glock still has a huge trump card is in their ease of detailed disassembly/reassembly. The comparable man-hours saved was a major factor in Glock selection in at least one major metropolitan department in the Pacific NW. Like it or not, overall resources necessary for maintenance over forecasted platform lifespan can be a major factor in selection.

Best, Jon

JHC

11-02-2015, 07:33 PM