Open Uniform Carry at 1 or 2 o'clock experiences?

[Frank75]

Hi guys,

I am experimenting with carrying my duty pistol at the 1 or 2 o'clock position on my uniform belt. It looks a little bit like the position most IPSC shooters have for their guns. I am trying this, because I wear my pistol concealed at the 1 o'clock AIWB. The next reason is, that we noticed that the worst disarming attend from behind is nearly impossible now or at least much easier to defeat.
So my question is: has anyone already experimented with this position?

Thanks,

Frank

[BN]

No personal experience, but I have seen some female officers wear their holster farther forward.

[rcbusmc24]

Many of our Guard force at 8th and I have thier holster pushed forward like this while they are in dress blues, they don't have the arm mobility in the dress uniform to be able to draw from thier normal holster location , especially when also wearing a vest under the blues jacket.

[Lon]

A good friend of mine used to wear a Safariland 070 up front like that. Probably 1:30 or 2 o'clock. He's the only guy I know who could deliver sub 1 second hits on a 8x10 steel from 7 yards with that holster.

[pablo]

I'm close to two. The big thing for me is that it keeps the holster and magazine out of the seat bolsters and is a lot more comfortable for my lower back.

I've considered the gun grab thing, it might be easier to physically defend but, at the same time it makes that pistol a whole hell of a lot more visible. I think it's a wash in that regard.

[nwhpfan]

Whatever works for you.....

As for IPSC/USPSA... Some divisions don't allow you forward of your hip bone so not everyone can carry at 1,2, etc.. Those that can, the reason they do is because they essentially place their gun where their arms naturally hang.... "Arms hanging naturally at sides" is a common start positoin. If the common start position was hands touching thighs, you'd see gamers move their holsters back... So if you can position your pistol basically right at your hand you have an advantage. Those guys often have reverse can'ts as well so that's something to consider.

Me, I shoot Production so I have to have my pistol no further than my hip bone going forward - and I do put it right there. Again, it puts my hand as close to the pistol as possible. So probably like 9:15 since I'm left handed. I carry a G34 in an ALS in uniform about the same place but I have to get in a car and stuff like that so too far forward would restrict that. But my draw at work could start from interview stance, the steering wheel, holding a notebook. I really don't know if from all those position the difference between 1,2,3 (9,10,11 for lefty) is really that much different.... especially with most duty pistol having a rearward can't.

[w provence]

In uniform I carry a Glock 31 in a mid-rise thumb snap with a forward cant, so it ends up at right about 2 to 215. I can see people getting away with 1 or 2 carry in duty gear with a high rise but any thing lower to me would get in the way of your leg as your seated, IMHP...........Bill

[KeeFus]

I carry mine around 2:00...maybe 2:30...works well with an interview stance. No issues.

[DpdG]

I carry a P226 in a Safariland 075 (low ride 070) at about 2-2:30. The only reason it works is because the cant allows my leg to bend into the gap between the sight channel and adjacent OC pouch. I don't think this would work in a straighter drop holster like the 6360, which rides at about the same height relative to the belt.

-G

[LSP552]

When in uniform, I carried a P226 in a straight drop GW Davis 4500 at the 2:30 (just in front of the hip). That later changed to a Safariland 200LS Top Gun. This model Top Gun was designed specifically for LSP and featured a true straight drop with enhanced thumb break. For me, this position offers the fastest presentation, especially if you factor in a bladed stance when dealing with folks.

[rsa-otc]

Slight thread drift.


This model Top Gun was designed specifically for LSP and featured a true straight drop with enhanced thumb break. I wish to thank you then. Once I became aware of this holster we switched almost entirely to it for both our revolvers and S&W 4506's. It was truly one of the best thumb break holsters available. Unfortunately the latest versions now cant away from the body and the thumb break is rolled to far over. Currently issuing SLS for our revolvers and ALS for Autos. Although we still have a smattering of older Model 200's amongst the troops.

[Chuck Haggard]

Years ago, probably decades ago, the Modern Warrior folks did some pressure testing on this subject and found that a uniform duty belt holster worn towards the appendix position had several advantages, including ease of defending the gun from gun grabs, speed of draw, and access to weak hand only if the strong hand was injured.

[Whiskey_Bravo]

I currently use the Safariland 070 SSIII on duty (Mandatory by PD) at the 3:00 position. I never even thought to move it closer to the centerline, but now I am intrigued. I will be trying this out this week. I trained HARD to be fast on the draw with holster and can beat almost anyone in the department, but the new positioning may help even more now.

I am a bigger guy (6' 3" x 260 lbs.) and the curve built into the belt loop on the 070 is pretty extreme. Do you guys think that will be any issue with comfort further forward?

[JustOneGun]

I tried it and liked it. The only problem I had was the vest getting caught up on the pistol and riding up when I sat down. Could find a work around that I could live with.

[LSP552]

Slight thread drift.

I wish to thank you then. Once I became aware of this holster we switched almost entirely to it for both our revolvers and S&W 4506's. It was truly one of the best thumb break holsters available. Unfortunately the latest versions now cant away from the body and the thumb break is rolled to far over. Currently issuing SLS for our revolvers and ALS for Autos. Although we still have a smattering of older Model 200's amongst the troops.

Welcome, but LSP972 and his predecessor are the real ones to thanks. They were also responsible for the Don Hume 416 mag pouch, the fastest/surest close top pouch I've ever used due to the V shape. Sadly, that's been discontinued also.

There was a time when LSP put a lot of time and effort into teaching troopers how to fight with a pistol, and spending a lot of time on maximizing the shooter/gear interface. Engagement environments can vary among agencies. While LSP does work in cities (heck, there has been a uniform group working high crime areas in New Orleans for some time), the majority of our shootings have historically been a single Trooper without backup. Several of these have been decided by speed from the holster and 1st round hits.

Times change.

[Frank75]

Hi guys,
thank you all for sharing your insights, which is indeed very helpful for me. It is a pity but I have to wear a Blackhawk Serpa holster and I know it is crap, but I have no choice. The good thing is, that you can cant the holster so the grip is angeld backwards. Meanwhile I found, that I am faster ( as back in my old IPSC days ), that I can draw while seated and that I can grip the gun in the holster without sticking my elbow out. This is a standard procedure overhere in a typical "routine" situation like a vehicle stop. It does not look as agressive as with the elbow out, when the holster is worn at 3 or 4 o'clock. This of course is good for the political correctness but perhaps bad for showing the bad guys, that you are no easy meal.

[TheNewbie]

Welcome, but LSP972 and his predecessor are the real ones to thanks. They were also responsible for the Don Hume 416 mag pouch, the fastest/surest close top pouch I've ever used due to the V shape. Sadly, that's been discontinued also.

There was a time when LSP put a lot of time and effort into teaching troopers how to fight with a pistol, and spending a lot of time on maximizing the shooter/gear interface. Engagement environments can vary among agencies. While LSP does work in cities (heck, there has been a uniform group working high crime areas in New Orleans for some time), the majority of our shootings have historically been a single Trooper without backup. Several of these have been decided by speed from the holster and 1st round hits.

Times change.

What was it about the V shape that made these so great? What is your favorite mag pouch for duty now? I carry bianchi fake leather gear and use their mag pouches.

I like the idea of a thumb break, but I personally know an officer who almost lost his gun. He was using a Model 200 holster for a P226. Don't think it would have went that far with an ALS.

[LSP552]

What was it about the V shape that made these so great? What is your favorite mag pouch for duty now? I carry bianchi fake leather gear and use their mag pouches.

I like the idea of a thumb break, but I personally know an officer who almost lost his gun. He was using a Model 200 holster for a P226. Don't think it would have went that far with an ALS.

I retired in 2008 and was using the 416 at the time. I like the V shape because it allows plenty of room to grab and index the magazine. With some pouches, there isn't enough room between the magazines for an unobstructed grab. They were available with velcro or snap closure, and I preferred the velcro.

Thumb breaks
Times change, and I'm considered old school and behind the times on my preference for holsters that don't take three hands and a firearms instructor to rapidly draw them. My concern is how fast and sure the the average officer is working a level 3 under stress and movement. I'm not talking about people who practice, I'm talking about the average trooper, deputy, officer who shoots quals only and hangs the gun belt on the chair at night, which is the majority in most agencies I'm familiar with.

I'm aware of an LSP trooper who was probably saved by a by a personally owned security holster. This ultimately led to them becoming an issue item. I'm also aware of cases where the officer failed to get his gun out in a timely fashion, and of cases where speed from the holster and 1st round hits absolutely decided the issue. The old place still allows personally owned weapons and gear and there are dinosaurs who cling to their SIGs (and Glocks) in different leather.

IMO, it's about preference, environment and outlook. I'm much more offensive oriented instead of defensive, and I know that's not the trend today. I believe environment is also a factor. In my old agency, patrol guys worked alone and were often 30 minutes away from backup. I believe weapon retention is about training, awareness and mindset. Hardware (of any flavor) is never a substitute for software.

IMO, gun grab = immediate application of deadly force by knife, backup gun or teeth. And it's a fact that some officers struggle with making the mental shift to kill this asshole now and choose to tussle.

[rsa-otc]

Thumb breaks
Times change, and I'm considered old school and behind the times on my preference for holsters that don't take three hands and a firearms instructor to rapidly draw them. My concern is how fast and sure the the average officer is working a level 3 under stress and movement. I'm not talking about people who practice, I'm talking about the average trooper, deputy, officer who shoots quals only and hangs the gun belt on the chair at night, which is the majority in most agencies I'm familiar with.


IMO, it's about preference, environment and outlook. I'm much more offensive oriented instead of defensive, and I know that's not the trend today. I believe environment is also a factor. In my old agency, patrol guys worked alone and were often 30 minutes away from backup. I believe weapon retention is about training, awareness and mindset. Hardware (of any flavor) is never a substitute for software.

IMO, gun grab = immediate application of deadly force by knife, backup gun or teeth. And it's a fact that some officers struggle with making the mental shift to kill this asshole now and choose to tussle.

Strongly echo LSP552's statements. Only upon the advent of both the SLS and ALS systems was I open to general issue of security holsters to my personnel. It was my observation that your rank and file would not put enough effort in practicing drawing to prevent disaster under duress. I mean look at Safariland's own literature, they stressed a minimum of 1000 draws before wearing the holsters in the field. If someone came to me and wanted to carry a retention holster he would have to show me that he put the time in practicing to a competent level before I would sign off on their using that holster.

Now mission drives gear and the SHTF if one of my guys had to go hands on with any assailant. The SLS and ALS are intuitive enough that I no longer have those doubts.

IMO for today's LEOs retention features are a must for uniform duty. Believe me, my son being a newly minted LEO has this old man whispering in his ear (read kicking in the ass) about training and keeping his head on straight.

[voodoo_man]

I've never carried anything other than traditional oclock with a duty holster, I don't like anything close my hip as its super uncomfortable and if I push it any more forward it'll be almost at an appendix position which just doesn't work with a safariland holster with lots of retention features.

I do see some of our motorcycle guys wearing as close as possible to the 1 oclock position while riding, more of a not hitting stuff thing than anything else, they also carry in these types of holsters:

http://akerleather.com/products/product-photos-main/164_164.png

If given the opportunity, with any new developments in technology, I'd probably carry appendix, OWB, as long as there is retention other than friction.

[rsa-otc]

If given the opportunity, with any new developments in technology, I'd probably carry appendix, OWB, as long as there is retention other than friction.

With Safariland's new modularity, by mixing a high ride belt hanger/loop you could probably find something that will fit the bill using ALS or SLS.

Adjustable cant.
http://www.safariland.com/hardware-and-accessories/model-567bl-injection-molded-belt-loop-23384.html

straight Drop
http://www.copquest.com/safariland-6072ubl-high-ride-universal-belt-loop-adapter_23-2475.htm

[voodoo_man]

With Safariland's new modularity, by mixing a high ride belt hanger/loop you could probably find something that will fit the bill using ALS or SLS.

Adjustable cant.
http://www.safariland.com/hardware-and-accessories/model-567bl-injection-molded-belt-loop-23384.html

straight Drop
http://www.copquest.com/safariland-6072ubl-high-ride-universal-belt-loop-adapter_23-2475.htm

I've seen those, I don't know if they will work exactly the way I'd like...

[rsa-otc]

I've seen those, I don't know if they will work exactly the way I'd like...

I have the adjustable version and an ALS holster. You can drop by the house and play with it if you'd like. I think with the adjustable loop you can put it on backwards for a reverse cant. The holster is for an M&P but you would get the idea. We could even try a SLS, but the ones I have are for K frame revolvers.

[voodoo_man]

I have the adjustable version and an ALS holster. You can drop by the house and play with it if you'd like. I think with the adjustable loop you can put it on backwards for a reverse cant. The holster is for an M&P but you would get the idea. We could even try a SLS, but the ones I have are for K frame revolvers.

Thanks. I have the plastic adjustable cant piece from a different setup and I could try it.

[voodoo_man]

To share an experience....

I took an le only shooting class recently, duty rig based, and one of the guys had a safariland at 145ish, highride. This is a holster that only required one retention device defeat, the hood, and then a draw and occur. He put up some interesting draw shots, but defeating that retention looked very difficult to do easily as his elbow had to go up in the air every time. Yes a standard aiwb draw is similar but i think with the added retention device and the fact it sat higher than a standard aiwb would (almost at his belly button, if not higher) it seemed like more of a hassle than needed to be.

[Rex G]

With Safariland's new modularity, by mixing a high ride belt hanger/loop you could probably find something that will fit the bill using ALS or SLS.

Adjustable cant.
http://www.safariland.com/hardware-and-accessories/model-567bl-injection-molded-belt-loop-23384.html

Thanks for the link to the straight-drop belt loop! I just ordered one, to experiment with my 6360 and 6304 holster bodies. Having just switched to 9MM Glocks, and having just been issued the newer, larger
straight Drop
http://www.copquest.com/safariland-6072ubl-high-ride-universal-belt-loop-adapter_23-2475.htm

Thanks for the link to the straight-drop belt loop! I just ordered one, to experiment with my 6360 and 6304 holster bodies. Having just switched to 9MM Glocks, and being determined to carry two mags on the belt again, instead of just one, plus having just been issued the newer, larger Taser model, my duty belt is in a state of flux. My duty belt size has not changed since I was a rookie 31 years ago, and I do not want anything behind my back, so real estate is at a premium. Moving the holster forward, from 0300, is an option. I am concerned about the muzzle clearing the holster mouth during the draw, as I have such a short waist and long arms, but I could use a G19 as primary, instead of the present G17, by simply re-shooting the "primary duty" qual course with the G19.