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BWT
09-19-2011, 11:04 PM
So disclaimer... I'm hunting a new handgun, and I'm at a cross roads of compromises. Maybe not, but, hear me out, and I want honest feedback, and I want honest opinions, tell me what you think, I don't want to chastise someone or "This is what I'm investing in and this is why it's better than your thing, My dad can take your dad in a fight, blah blah blah, so and so shoots this", I want opinions, fearless observations, rumors, whatever, I just want to get it all out there.

I've started looking at a Glock 17 Gen 4 seriously, I handled a Glock 22 today before work at Academy's (I want 9mm handgun, and it's comparable to a Glock 17 in side), I liked it. Sure it's got the grip angle quirk but it's correctable by the adapter.

This is what I want, honest opinions and observations.

I'm comparing and contrasting the Glock and the M&P, and let me say this... neither are flawless. In the testing of this website alone, the glock's needed a new extractor, he's replacing all the magazines. Heck the test gun for the year ended up not being the test gun. They're re-vamping the recoil spring.

The M&P isn't flawless either, it apparently has accuracy woes with inaccurate barrels, and some slight known (but fixable) extraction issues.

But truthfully, as ugly as these things look.... I shoot maybe 2,000 some odd rounds a year, between all my guns?

Is that really that bad? Or are we really just seeing that truthfully, every gun isn't flawless, every gun has issues, it's really just a matter of time and usage.

The P30 was probably the exception, but, heck, I found it funny the first three threads when I came into this sub forum are about issues with each gun respectively. P30 hammer follow, New Glock Ejection, and the M&P hitting low, the irony is killing me.

So, let's have an honest discussion.

How I'd run the guns would look like this.

M&P Full size with a thumb safety, Apex DCAEK, Heinie Straight 8 sights.

Glock 17 Gen 4, I'll research trigger jobs, but I've shot good ones, I'm thinking a simple disconnector or spring change would be adequate and the parts are easy to swap, Heinie Straight 8 sights. (After handling it I'd also get an extended safety)

Maybe, on a wild hair an HK P30, but, eh.

I'd like input, I'd like perspective.

Heck, I'd even like to hear about Sigs if you like them, and why, etc.

I plan to also make the move to AIWB.

But also, as much as I love this site, and I really do, I'd also like suggestions outside of those three if you feel they're adequate, I love what ToddG's done, and I have a world of respect for him, but those are also all pistols that have "Gone the distance", give me another gun for 500-800$ for the base gun that you think should be there and why, if you do.

I can tell you my preferences are, I like the idea of a compact gun, but... every gun I've ever picked up, I have to be able to get a handle on it. I handled a Glock 22 Gen 4 (similar form factor to a Glock 17) and then I picked up a Glock 23, and I can tell you... I won't buy a Glock 19.

I want a full size handle, probably around a 4-ish (give or take a quarter of an inch, maybe more, but it'd have to be on the less side) inch barrel.

I want it in 9mm, I had my .45 ACP time, and, the price, less controllable round, and performance of 9mm JHP, higher capacity, led me to say, I want 9mm.

I want it light, I'm coming from a Stainless Steel Commander 1911, I'm thinking I'd want an external safety, but... truthfully a quality holster (meaning it won't compromise the trigger/snag within the trigger guard and it retains the weapon sufficiently), proper gun safety, could make that not necessarily a hang up, I'm thinking lets depart the hang up.

I'll say this, picking up the Glock today felt right.

I'll also say this I don't meant this to be a "convince me" thread but I think maybe... maybe it could be an in-depth thing. It's the first time I've done one of these, but, anyway.

I welcome all opinions.

WDW
09-20-2011, 01:39 AM
Get a Walther P99AS or a PPQ

Josh Runkle
09-20-2011, 01:55 AM
Sorry to be this guy, but, buy them ALL and shoot more often!

1.) Decision making in buying a gun should be based around purpose, not features. In my book, a gun is a tool and I use the right tool for the right job (A ccw gun is different than a competition gun).

2.) Often people's "perception" of their experience plays a large factor in their opinion, for example: if 100 people have the same gun and it runs flawless for 99 people, the 1 other person is going to badmouth ALL guns of that brand because of his/her perception, when their may just simply be a defect in the one he has.

3.) If you're only shooting 2,000 rounds a year total, odds are any of the above guns you listed will far outshoot your abilities. I'm shooting about 10 times that much every year, and nearly all of my guns still outshoot my abilities. (It should not be confused, though, that quality training and practice far outweigh simply having a large round count)

Tamara
09-20-2011, 06:16 AM
Frankly, I can't really see that there's much to choose from other than personal preference.

I went into the last Indy 1500 gun show telling Shootin' Buddy that I was going to buy the first used G19 or M&P9 I found for less than four bills. I found one of each and picked the M&P over the 19 because it had the box and the docs and the Glock had those ghey XS sights that would have needed replacing. Seriously, if it had been the M&P with the Big Dots and the Glock with the box, I'd have gone home with the 19 and been just as happy.

I have $2k+ custom 1911s in the safe that were built to my specifications. Those I get a little worked up about. The Glock/M&P/HundK are, on the other hand, interchangeable plastic commodity pistols; close your eyes, reach into a sack, pull one out, and learn to shoot it. (And buy two backup copies.)

TNWNGR
09-20-2011, 06:58 AM
I recognize the encouragements for spirited discussion and debate regarding the pros and cons of the G-17/22 Gen 4 and S&W M&P. That’s part of the gun ownership thing, but you defined your parameters when you mentioned the extended safety. Otherwise Tamara has summed it up, pick one and shoot it, train with it, use it until its second nature.
I carry a 3rd Gen G-22 and 4th Gen G-27 because they’re issued and I’ve no other choice. Otherwise I’d run a 9mm 4th Gen G-17 and have a new S&W M&P for comparison testing. FWIW I’m a 45acp, Colt 1911 Service Pistol with minor modifications aficionado, I intentional keep my firearms pretty basic.

ToddG
09-20-2011, 09:12 AM
You need to get a better handle on what you want and what you want it for. Things like "I'm thinking I'd want an external safety" don't sync up with "picking up the Glock today felt right." You're asking folks for opinions and advice but haven't given us much to go with in terms of what you intend to do with the gun.

You say you're going to put about 2k total through all your guns each year. Do you have 20 guns you shoot equally or will you be putting most/all of that 2k through this new gun? If you're going to shoot 200 rounds a year through it, any of the guns on the market made by a reputable manufacturer will outlast you unless you get a lemon.

When you talk about a G23 not feeling right, does that mean it had some performance deficit when you shot it or just that it didn't feel good in the hand? Until you put in some effort and shoot them, figuring out how a gun will work by "feel" is almost a waste of time.

I guarantee, there are plenty of people here more than willing to offer an honest opinion. But without a better idea of what you're looking for, all you can expect is "well, my favorite is XYZ."

Failure2Stop
09-20-2011, 10:07 AM
I have a *new* line of thought on new auto-handgun shooters.

Buy a Gen3 G19, 5 mags, good holster that fits your use, a decent mounted light (I prefer the X300), 2 belt pouches, 5,000 rounds of decent practice ammo, and swap the sights for a good set (I personally like Warren's and Heinie, but I defer to those that are better on gun than I).
Attend 2 classes from well-regarded trainers and shoot all of your training ammo before considering a platform swap.

It will give you an excellent fundamental base and reference for advancement.

No, I don't think that the G19 is the be-all, end-all when it comes to pistols, but they are easy to fix, easy to find accessories, well documented, wide spread, well known, and since they are so popular, if you do decide to go to another platform it will be very easy to sell the pistol and accessories without giving it away.

Jay Cunningham
09-20-2011, 10:09 AM
I have a *new* line of thought on new auto-handgun shooters.

Buy a Gen3 G19, 5 mags, good holster that fits your use, a decent mounted light (I prefer the X300), 2 belt pouches, 5,000 rounds of decent practice ammo, and swap the sights for a good set (I personally like Warren's and Heinie, but I defer to those that are better on gun than I).
Attend 2 classes from well-regarded trainers and shoot all of your training ammo before considering a platform swap.

It will give you an excellent fundamental base and reference for advancement.

No, I don't think that the G19 is the be-all, end-all when it comes to pistols, but they are easy to fix, easy to find accessories, well documented, wide spread, well known, and since they are so popular, if you do decide to go to another platform it will be very easy to sell the pistol and accessories without giving it away.

^^^^^^^^ ----- What this dude said!!!!!

Dagga Boy
09-20-2011, 11:14 AM
^^^^^^^^ ----- What this dude said!!!!!

Ditto here as well (although I prefer an Gen 3 17 with the grip cut to take 19 mags). I personally think the Gen 4 guns still have fleas, so I would stick with an older Gen 3.

Along with sights, Vickers mag release and slide lock. Don Ellis-"the Glock guy" does all my trigger work using all stock parts, and trigger pull weight. He doesn't like to say who he builds guns for, but most here would recognize them.

gtmtnbiker98
09-20-2011, 01:05 PM
Or, take Failure's advice and take what you have, buy 5-cases of ammo and a couple of classes then evaluate. For the amount that you are shooting, what you have may already be suitable. You just don't know it.

vcdgrips
09-20-2011, 02:08 PM
I might change what FTS only in this respect- go with a G17 as for many, you can pinch your hand on a G19 sized weapon when you are running your reloads at speed. The resulting blood blister(s) will impact your subsequent training for the next few sessions.

David Armstrong
09-20-2011, 05:56 PM
If yo uare happy with what you have and are just looking for something to expand your gun collection and skills, have you considered a revolver??

BWT
09-21-2011, 01:20 AM
I mean I hate to say it, but I kind of shot this thread from the hip, and I got shot from the hip results. Which is purely my fault, I gave you guys the information you had to work with, so you responded accordingly.

The truth is I probably shoot 2,000-3,000 rounds per year centerfire and probably a 1,000 or more rimfire.

It doesn't sound like a whole lot, but realistically, I get out to shoot about once or more a month, and I probably shoot at any give time 200-300 rounds, I do a monthly match now, and every once in awhile, we'll get a group together at a family outing and do a lot of shooting, but really quantifiably, that doesn't matter.

What I'm looking for is a 9mm handgun, I believe, I've carried and shot a 1911 in .45 ACP, and I'm unhappy with it. I've been lamenting about it long enough (for over a year), but I postponed replacing it because I *knew* I'd replace it and there were other guns that I didn't know that I'd necessarily buy if I didn't buy them before the replacement handgun.

I don't collect guns, simply put, I own 5, and every one of them (with one exception), I shoot with regularity.

What I'm looking to do is replace the system I use, pretty much the only thing I want to keep consistent is a all kydex mag carrier.

I'm pretty much dumping just about everything because of the lessons learned from carrying it and using it for a year and a half.

I currently carry a DW CBOB, in a Comp Tac Spartan, in a Tactical wilderness 1.5'' belt 5-stich belt, with a dual magazine carrier. I started with two spare Chip McCormick 10 round power mags.

I'll outline the progression below.

I abandoned those 10 rounders quickly after I realized, that they don't feed well enough, they simply don't, that and the form factor was awkward, for carry.

I started carrying spare 8-rounders, which inevitably didn't feed well enough so I replaced the followers and springs, which then eroded down to not carrying a spare magazine, and a complete lack of faith in 1911 magazines (I've tried wilsons, I've tried night hawks, and I've shot the Wolff magazine that I carry enough to trust it, but I'm just done "fiddling")

Next is the holster and placement, I carried the traditional 4-5 o'clock position, and honestly, it just pokes out too much and is too uncontrollable for the lifestyle I lead, I'm an active guy, and I'm thinking appendix carry lends it self more to bending over, etc, and honestly is probably more comfortable and easier to conceal, also, there's hope of actually getting to it when seated inside a vehicle.

I'm tired of the holster, It's uncomfortable, awkward, and I think I should go next time either all kydex or all leather.

The Belt was actually really nice, I've worn it enough that now the velcro that attaches from the tongue is tearing off.

The gun? I've used it enough to have broken the hammer from usage (I can provide pictures), I routinely have to rub it down with solvent and detail strip it about 10-15 times a year to prevent rust, because despite being SS, I still sweat on it, and it still rusts in the bead blasted areas, in the plunger tube, under the trigger guard, under the grip panels, etc.

I realize the weight of the gun itself lends me to not carrying it, or I could do more with less, I realize that .45 ACP is overrated, and over priced. I want to go to 9mm, I want the higher capacity (and frankly a lesson learned from above, I want to carry one spare magazine, as opposed to two), more controllable shots.

That's what a year and a half of carrying that gun has taught me.

What I'd like to do is re-engage and say that, things I liked are the grip angle, I liked the manual safety.

Why would I consider that again you ask? Because I'm paranoid? Because I don't think myself safe? No, because the truth is, the most dangerous portion of carrying AIWB is holstering the gun (With a safe holster, guys have shot themselves with SERPA Holsters because they've cauht material in the holster and it snagged the trigger, when it's free of the holster and free of clothing, it's all about proper weapons handling, when it's in the holster and it's retained by the holster, it's safe), because if that snags on some clothing, etc. The Gadget seems like a great solution to this issue for the Glock, a Thumb safety seems like a great solution for the M&P, as I could activate that and then re-holster, a stiff double action trigger on an H&K P30 for the first shot seems like a good idea to prevent that, that one has the benefit of a thumb safety optionally as well.

A lingering thought I'm having is simplify the draw stroke, even though I've carried a gun with a thumb safety, it must be deactivated to fire, and I can tell you from shooting competitions I've gone too, that when adrenaline dumps, your hands aren't shaking at times because you're a sissy, it's because your hearts absolutely racing, and you may not get that safety off, or you may forget it, or a 1,000 other dumb things that you may or may not do under extreme duress, it happens. Make life easier, eliminate excess steps from the process.

I'm liking the Glock 17 and M&P9 because they seem to all obtainable workable triggers (which in a handgun, IMHO is much more important than a rifle, as if you jerk the trigger in a rifle, out to 25-50 yards, you may never notice, but in a handgun, you'll notice it at 5-7 yards, again read practice the fundamentals, but, let's be honest, your hands are shaking, your life is on the line.). They all have the option of 2-dot sights, another thing from the year and a half of the 1911, I shot the traditional 3-dot sights, green/yellow tritium (front blade is green), and honestly, I noticed that I hesitate to recognize what I'm seeing, they're slower *for* me.

Dot ontop of dot seemed to work in theory, and it really worked in application when I shot about 300-500 rounds through an S&W M&P that belong to my father with Warren tactical sights with a APEX DCAEK.

I want a Polymer frame and a finished slide, because frankly, I want less maintenance, and I want less weight, so that I feel more comfortable carrying it regularly.

Revolvers? I've got a family member that owns a S&W J-Frame, and I want more than 5 shots, other then that, the thickness of the cylinder make it awkward for pocket carry (which is how I'd want to carry it), and the speed loaders are anything but speedy compared to a magazine reload (again read hands shaking, life and death, simplify the system under stress).

I'm really looking at the M&P9 and Glock 17, I want a full size frame because my hands are somewhat larger and I've never cared for any compact frame I've ever handled, I'm sorry, that's just how I feel.

I just wanted to sit down and ask other people's opinion that I respected, hopefully this helps refine what I'm thinking I need.

But honestly, the reason I'm also asking is, I'm no expert, and I realize as I look at these new considerations as the "solution", and can't see a problem. I didn't foresee a problem with my current carry setup either at the outset, so I'm hoping to swallow my pride, sit and listen, and take honest opinions.

Thanks for the input.

I'm also consider the Gen 3 and Gen 4 Glock 17's, I like the Gen 4 Glock 17's the way they feel and handle for me.

Also I wouldn't consider myself as one to unwind under pressure, but I'm just being honest, and I think the easier you make it on yourself under pressure the better you'll perform.

What I like about the Gen 4, is frankly, the grip angle, the Glock 22 felt great, meaning it filled the hand well, it pointed well, and it I liked the texture on the grip (coming from a gun with 25 LPI Front strap and VZ Double Diamond Checkered Grip panels, I want a solid grip, but I don't care to cheese grate my hands either), I like the magazine release, but I'd want it extended. I liked that even though I have what's called the hitch hiker's thumb (meaning a curved thumb) I could if I really tried manipulate the slide release closed, and I could get an extended slide release and have used Glocks with them before and been satisfied.

This isn't a reality for me with a M&P9, or even my 1911, I have to grab the slide and release it.

The Gen 3 does have the extended magazine releases and slide releases, and they can adapt the Gripforce Adapter and Talon grips or decal grips to it for more grip and more 1911 grip angle to it, so, both the Glock 17 Gen 4 and Gen 3 are workable.

So, shoot holes in my ideas and theories, Thanks for the input, and I'm sorry I botched the first post.

ETA: Let me go ahead and say it, just because I want to be honest about it, the last gun I shoot is my EDC gun, because I'm just tired of screwing with it trying to make it work. I've probably shot it less than 300-400 rounds in the last year, because I'm just tired of messing with it, how absolutely backwards is that? Completely.

But, that's the truth, I've put probably 2,000 rounds through rifles this year so far.

rsa-otc
09-21-2011, 06:24 AM
BWT;

In reading your last post I think you've already made up your mind on Glock. If you choose anything else and you have any issues you end up saying "I should have got the Glock". H&K, S&W or Glock are all reputible guns that would give you good service. But I think you'll give Glock more leeway right now if something isn't quite right.

My suggestion is see if you can get a good used 3rd gen 17 and shoot the hell out of it. While Glock is well on their way to ironing out the gen 4 issues, after all your prior problems I think if you get one that is problimatic it will send your frustration levels through the roof and right now you don't need/deserve that. Pistol shooting needs to be fun again.

Take the money you save by buying used and spend it on trigger mods if you wish, more ammo or take a class or two.

Good Luck!

Failure2Stop
09-21-2011, 11:14 PM
I went from 1911s to G19s when the reality of the 1911 finally hit me.

I went from a G19 to a P30 mostly for two reasons:
1- Ambi mag release does not require shifting of the gun in the firing hand (same for slide catch/release).
2- Exposed hammer can be used to ensure that the gun cannot fire when reholstering.

I really wish that there were more readily available holsters and sights, distinct draw-backs of the P30.
Oh yeah, and there ain't no blue box HKs :eek:

DocGKR
09-22-2011, 12:47 AM
Get a used 3rd gen G17 or G19; I add:

-- Better sights: For irons I like the Trijicon HD, Warren, or Ameriglo 3-dot with bright green front and dim yellow back, although recently I've been using a Trijicon RMR02 RDS with suppressor height BIS.

-- Vickers mag catch

-- Vickers slide release

-- Scherer "slug" butt plug

-- Stipple frame

-- Glock "-" connector

-- Glock smooth trigger if not OEM installed (typically needs replacement on G19's)

-- Maritime spring cups if any use around water is anticipated

-- Grip Force Adapters, especially on G17's.

-- SF x300 light if needed

-- At least 6 extra G17 mags (even for the G19, as the G17 mags work better for reloads than G19 ones)

http://www.10-8forums.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php?ubb=download&Number=7655&filename=Glocks%20GFA.jpg

For AIWB/IWB I like both the Fricke Seraphim/Archangel or CCC Looper.

For OWB the Fricke Gideon Elite, Alessi DOJ Open Port, RCS Phantom, and Comp Tac Belt Holster all work well.

For duty, the Safariland ALS or SLS holsters are good options.

BWT
09-22-2011, 09:44 PM
I really appreciate the input, I went tonight and handled a Gen 3 Glock 17, bought 100 rounds of 9mm, and I've decided... we're going with a Glock.

Alright, and I'd like as much feedback in this next regard as possible.

Gen 3 or Gen 4.

Why do you want a Pre-2008 Doc? I've noticed that trend, what's changed? What don't you like, honestly?

I know the Gen 3 is proven, but I just figure Gen 4 is where it's going, and I'm just considering the matter to the best of my ability.

Also another question, are Gen 3 and Gen 4 Glock 17 mags compatible? (I don't know, I don't own one, I haven't seen anything in publication, but was just curious).

I handled the Glock 17 and again.... it just felt "right". The Gen 3 aligned itself perfectly when I presented it, the Gen 4 there was some awkwardness, but I like the bigger mag release.

Let's hear it.

Thank you guys, I really appreciate it.

ETA: and I absolutely agree about the "-" connector, can you give me a bit more insight into what exactly a Glock smooth trigger is?

I'm guessing you're talking about the non-serrated versus serrated triggers? I wasn't aware that any shipped with a serrated or textured trigger, IIRC anyway... My brother has a Gen 3 G21, maybe I can look at his later.

ETA 2: I will also say this, the gun needs an extended magazine release, I don't know who designed it, but both the Gen 3 and Gen 4 to me were too short. The Gen 4 was closer back in the handle though and bigger and easier to activate, so, I liked that.

seabiscuit
09-22-2011, 11:59 PM
The Vickers mag release previously mentioned is perfect in my experience. And the Vickers slide stop is great too.

DocGKR
09-23-2011, 01:18 AM
Some gen 4's have had significant problems; on the other hand, gen 3 G17's were the most reliable out of the box pistol ever made. A few recent gen 3's, beginning in late 2010, have also begun to have issues--most likely as the newer type parts as put in gen 4's start to get used during gen 3 production...

There should be no difference in presentation between a gen 3 and gen 4--the handling is identical for all intents and purposes.

Magazines are generally interchangeable between gen 3 and gen 4 pistols with normal left side of frame mag release location.

To try and solve the problems with gen 4's, Glock has released multiple recoil spring assembly variants, a new ejector, and rumors of a new extractor. Nice of them to let us all be Beta testers for their new design--it is not like an untested, unreliable pistol might be a life and death issue...oh, wait...

Ensure you have adequate training and good ongoing practice--that is far more important than any hardware change.

Tamara
09-23-2011, 05:52 AM
I'm guessing you're talking about the non-serrated versus serrated triggers? I wasn't aware that any shipped with a serrated or textured trigger, IIRC anyway... My brother has a Gen 3 G21, maybe I can look at his later.
You won't need to worry about the serrated trigger if you're buying a 17.

The serrated trigger is a "target trigger" that is used on compact and subcompact Glocks to gain import compliance points per G.C.A. '68. (See here (http://www.glockfaq.com/content.aspx?ckey=Glock_FAQ_Glock_Model_Info#point s).)

rsa-otc
09-23-2011, 06:22 AM
I really appreciate the input, I went tonight and handled a Gen 3 Glock 17, bought 100 rounds of 9mm, and I've decided... we're going with a Glock.

Alright, and I'd like as much feedback in this next regard as possible.

Gen 3 or Gen 4.

Why do you want a Pre-2008 Doc? I've noticed that trend, what's changed? What don't you like, honestly?

I know the Gen 3 is proven, but I just figure Gen 4 is where it's going, and I'm just considering the matter to the best of my ability.

Also another question, are Gen 3 and Gen 4 Glock 17 mags compatible? (I don't know, I don't own one, I haven't seen anything in publication, but was just curious).

I handled the Glock 17 and again.... it just felt "right". The Gen 3 aligned itself perfectly when I presented it, the Gen 4 there was some awkwardness, but I like the bigger mag release.

Let's hear it.

Thank you guys, I really appreciate it.

ETA: and I absolutely agree about the "-" connector, can you give me a bit more insight into what exactly a Glock smooth trigger is?

I'm guessing you're talking about the non-serrated versus serrated triggers? I wasn't aware that any shipped with a serrated or textured trigger, IIRC anyway... My brother has a Gen 3 G21, maybe I can look at his later.

ETA 2: I will also say this, the gun needs an extended magazine release, I don't know who designed it, but both the Gen 3 and Gen 4 to me were too short. The Gen 4 was closer back in the handle though and bigger and easier to activate, so, I liked that.

My suggestion is don't get ahead of yourself. P/U a dependable gun and get plenty of Happy Time on the trigger operating it, then figure out what mods you may want from there. Start making mods before you get a feel for the gun can get you crossways in your training curve and have you chasing things. After all you are moving from a undependable 1911 pistol (no this is not a comment on the 1911 platform, his sample was undependable) to combat tupperware. Thats a change all in it self.

BWT
09-23-2011, 10:07 PM
The Vickers mag release previously mentioned is perfect in my experience. And the Vickers slide stop is great too.

I wanted something more subdued than the glock competition part but still workable.



Some gen 4's have had significant problems; on the other hand, gen 3 G17's were the most reliable out of the box pistol ever made. A few recent gen 3's, beginning in late 2010, have also begun to have issues--most likely as the newer type parts as put in gen 4's start to get used during gen 3 production...

There should be no difference in presentation between a gen 3 and gen 4--the handling is identical for all intents and purposes.

Magazines are generally interchangeable between gen 3 and gen 4 pistols with normal left side of frame mag release location.

To try and solve the problems with gen 4's, Glock has released multiple recoil spring assembly variants, a new ejector, and rumors of a new extractor. Nice of them to let us all be Beta testers for their new design--it is not like an untested, unreliable pistol might be a life and death issue...oh, wait...


Thank you for the input, honestly, I can tell you, the Gen 3 pointed exactly like my 1911, exactly. Can't explain it, but it did. The gen 4 felt similar, but different.


You won't need to worry about the serrated trigger if you're buying a 17.

The serrated trigger is a "target trigger" that is used on compact and subcompact Glocks to gain import compliance points per G.C.A. '68. (See here.)

Do you have a sister?


My suggestion is don't get ahead of yourself. P/U a dependable gun and get plenty of Happy Time on the trigger operating it, then figure out what mods you may want from there. Start making mods before you get a feel for the gun can get you crossways in your training curve and have you chasing things. After all you are moving from a undependable 1911 pistol (no this is not a comment on the 1911 platform, his sample was undependable) to combat tupperware. Thats a change all in it self.

That's honestly some of the best advice, running it stock, and getting a feel for it.

That being said... nothing I plan on doing is drastic... I want to put an extended slide release to be able to use the slide release with my thumb, simply put, it isn't a reality with me with a stock release, the magazine release, honestly, I need to rotate the gun slightly in my hand to get to the magazine release, this will help alleviate that.

A somewhat lighter connect, I feel like with the stock trigger pull weight of 5.5 lbs, A 4.5 lb trigger is comparable to an M&P9 with an Apex DCAEK. The pull length is long enough to keep solid control.

I'm no expert, but I've shot hundreds (cumulatively thousands) of rounds between Glocks, M&P's, and XD's, am I an expert? Absolutely not, and frankly, in the presence of the people posting here, I'd probably not consider myself "experienced" but I've handle them enough to know that I can't use the slide release on most guns, dependably enough that I'd trust myself to reload one handed (thumb angle). It's the same story with the magazine release.

The trigger is workable, and I can always switch it back to the default.

The Biggest change is the Grip Force Adapter, and honestly... That's a $29.99 part, that I can take off and throw to the way side.

I'll say this, the most appeasing part of it all, is the cost.

Bottom line, cost. My goodness... I spent $80 on a pair of VZ Grips for my Dan Wesson, and I could get a Grip Force Adapter, "-" Trigger Connector, Vickers Magazine and Slide release all for about the same amount, and that's all I'd do the gun except night sights.

I'll say this, the grip texture of the Glock Gen 4 is appealing, the more set back magazine release is appealing. But DocGKR holds a valid point, the gun is having issues with softer shooting 9mm, which honestly, I think a gun should run with all bullets, unless it's a one-off custom, and you know that from the get go. But something that has the letters P-E-R-F-E-C-T anywhere near it better darn well be it.

I'll say this, I don't expect perfection out of a firearm, I just expect quality.

Every gun handgun I can recall has malfunctioned. The M&P, the Glock 21 (I learned to shoot a Glock 21, probably a terrible idea, that particular glock also has light primer strikes, probably has about 2,000-2,500 rounds through it, I need to replace the striker assembly), the 1911's, the XD's, AR's (Though those were legitimately magazine and ammunition issues, but, still they were stoppages).

I'm still kind of torn, because I did some research and it appears the double springed' recoil spring for the Glocks is the culprit for the failures to feed/extract in lightly powered ammo, them shoe-horning a 40 S&W extractor into the glock 9mm is probably part of it.

But truthfully, S&W did the same thing with the M&P's, they have a very similar circumstances of using the same size slides, extractors, frames, and I'd imagine fire control parts.

Truth be told I think the double springed Glocks are a solution for the Glock .40 S&W, same with their extractor.

I haven't heard of really any issues with 40's in Gen 4's like you have with Gen 3's, and vice versa, with Glock 9's being issue free in Gen 3 but 40's being plagued by them.

I've got some time before I'm buying, I'm going to start buying parts that have commonality to both (Read extended slide release). I want the Gen 4 to work out, but I also want reliability, and I mean reliability, I mean r-e-l-i-a-b-i-l-i-t-y. I don't want to order anymore stiff magazine springs, or better followers, or better magazines overall.

The controls and texture of the grip of the Gen 4 are the only thing that have me waning.

seabiscuit
09-24-2011, 01:29 AM
I wanted something more subdued than the glock competition part but still workable.

That's exactly what both Vickers parts are.

BWT
09-25-2011, 12:51 AM
That's exactly what both Vickers parts are.

Thanks, that's the impression I got.

I wanted to take time to say something, I said this yesterday


Do you have a sister?

as a joke, and honestly, to kind of imply were there more women like her, and what not, and honestly, what a stupid thing to say.

No one's approached me about it, but I apologize.

Tamara
09-25-2011, 06:11 AM
as a joke, and honestly, to kind of imply were there more women like her, and what not, and honestly, what a stupid thing to say.

No one's approached me about it, but I apologize.

While no offense was taken, that was a fine and gentlemanly thing to do. :)

gtmtnbiker98
09-26-2011, 06:56 AM
Nice. Way to go raising the bar for the rest of us. :mad:LOL

BWT
09-26-2011, 10:02 PM
While no offense was taken, that was a fine and gentlemanly thing to do. :)

No problem.


Nice. Way to go raising the bar for the rest of us.

I smooth with the ladies... like a hundred grit sandpaper coated ball bearing. If Tamara ever makes it in the area, I'm sure I'd smooth my way into a date.

So I handled a glock 22 today, Gen 3 and Gen 4 side by side.

The hand has spoken.

Gen 4. The magazine release felt positive in the thumb, the Gen 3 just wasn't comparable. The Gun felt solid in the hand with the texture, it just felt right.

I realize the recoil spring is still spotty, honestly, the extractor is having issues (the M&P is as well), the ejector needs work (the M&P9 is inaccurate).

I came to a simple conclusion, buying a gun is taking a chance, simple as that.

The new Gen 3's aren't Old Gen 3 reliable, but the guns, truthfully are pretty reliable for $500~.

I was killing time this morning after getting out of a morning meeting at work (We're acquiring another company, etc, etc), and then I studied for about an hour and a half in a star bucks, dropped by an Academy and compared the two... I feel like buying any gun these days is playing the odds. Truthfully, ever single gun I've bought over $500 has had an issue, that was "Out of spec", and frankly, I don't see myself escaping that legacy now.

Am I embracing it? No, but I figure Glock's got a great warranty, and great re-sale value, and I can tell you as slow as I am to Warm to new things, I think this is right.

I look at all the Tactical Tupperware and if I dig deep enough on any of them I think I can find a shortcoming that could be a "game stopper".

You know the worst feeling the world? That you're leaving a 1911 because it's unreliable, and looking at Glock's, M&P's, Sig's, and heck even HK's in some examples and you find them unreliable.

At that point you're almost to the point of "Why buy another gun? Seriously?"

We shall see.

Tamara
09-27-2011, 05:48 AM
You know the worst feeling the world? That you're leaving a 1911 because it's unreliable, and looking at Glock's, M&P's, Sig's, and heck even HK's in some examples and you find them unreliable.

At that point you're almost to the point of "Why buy another gun? Seriously?"

I have spent practically my entire adult life working in places that had signs reading "WE FIX BUSTED GUNS" out front. I have seen so many broken guns that...

Look, I've seen Glocks crack slides and frames, broken Beretta locking blocks, cracked breechblocks on SIGs (http://booksbikesboomsticks.blogspot.com/2011/09/all-guns-break.html)... HK? I've seen a P7M8 carom a round off my downstairs neighbor's gun safe and into his office wall because the dinky little spring that operates the firing pin safety had gone tango uniform, causing the gun to slamfire out of battery when he dropped the slide. (And after four months of waiting for a replacement from HK, my gunsmith finally wound up making one. Good job, HK! I'm fairly certain that MSgt. B will no longer be purchasing any of your fine products, which is a shame, really.) I've seen totalled revolvers.

Guns are consumer items. We've seen broken TVs and automobiles and bicycles and blenders, so why do broken guns surprise us? (And yes, it's a piece of lifesaving emergency gear, but so's the airbag on your car and... didn't Ford or somebody just have a recall for those?)

Going out and thinking that because you've picked this model from that company in the other caliber, you're guaranteed a heartbreak-free ownership experience is just setting yourself up for disappointment.

Do you know one reason that Toyota consistently does better than, say, Mercedes or BMW in JD Power initial quality surveys? Because when somebody buys an S-Class or a 7-series, and there is any little bobble, they are back at the dealership complaining that "I can sort of hear this tiny little 'whum-whum' noise from the right rear tire when I'm going between 57 and 59 mph on concrete-surfaced freeways." whereas the driver of a Yaris could have the frickin' door fall off on day two, and he's so happy to have a new car, he just duct-tapes it back on and drives on down the road. (And this goes a long way to explaining all the happy Taurus owners in this world...)

JV_
09-27-2011, 05:59 AM
"I can sort of hear this tiny little 'whum-whum' noise from the right rear tire when I'm going between 57 and 59 mph on concrete-surfaced freeways."Been reading my Toyota service history reports? Seriously! I'm certain the service advisers hate me, but I couldn't care less.

My hell would involve a world of squeaks, pops and creeks that I can't identify and/or fix.

Tamara
09-27-2011, 07:23 AM
Been reading my Toyota service history reports? Seriously! I'm certain the service advisers hate me, but I couldn't care less.
In my brief experience in the pits of hel^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^Hnew car sales, service writers hate everybody. If it weren't for constantly being bothered by customers and salesweasels, they could just stand around and drink coffee all day and talk sports in peace.

BWT
09-27-2011, 09:35 PM
I have spent practically my entire adult life working in places that had signs reading "WE FIX BUSTED GUNS" out front. I have seen so many broken guns that...

Look, I've seen Glocks crack slides and frames, broken Beretta locking blocks, cracked breechblocks on SIGs (http://booksbikesboomsticks.blogspot.com/2011/09/all-guns-break.html)... HK? I've seen a P7M8 carom a round off my downstairs neighbor's gun safe and into his office wall because the dinky little spring that operates the firing pin safety had gone tango uniform, causing the gun to slamfire out of battery when he dropped the slide. (And after four months of waiting for a replacement from HK, my gunsmith finally wound up making one. Good job, HK! I'm fairly certain that MSgt. B will no longer be purchasing any of your fine products, which is a shame, really.) I've seen totalled revolvers.

Guns are consumer items. We've seen broken TVs and automobiles and bicycles and blenders, so why do broken guns surprise us? (And yes, it's a piece of lifesaving emergency gear, but so's the airbag on your car and... didn't Ford or somebody just have a recall for those?)

Going out and thinking that because you've picked this model from that company in the other caliber, you're guaranteed a heartbreak-free ownership experience is just setting yourself up for disappointment.

Do you know one reason that Toyota consistently does better than, say, Mercedes or BMW in JD Power initial quality surveys? Because when somebody buys an S-Class or a 7-series, and there is any little bobble, they are back at the dealership complaining that "I can sort of hear this tiny little 'whum-whum' noise from the right rear tire when I'm going between 57 and 59 mph on concrete-surfaced freeways." whereas the driver of a Yaris could have the frickin' door fall off on day two, and he's so happy to have a new car, he just duct-tapes it back on and drives on down the road. (And this goes a long way to explaining all the happy Taurus owners in this world...)

What I was saying is you come to terms with it.

Every gun will fail. I mean, that's the reality of it. That's really what it came down too, was you kind of find yourself if you let it get in your head analysis paralysis.

"Well the M&P's in accurate at distances according to so and so, also it fails to extract some cheap rounds because of the .40 S&W extractor".

Glocks honestly, have issues it appears with three major areas currently.

Extractors, Recoil springs, and Ejectors honestly.

What I find relaxation in is quality warranties and stand up companies who stand behind their products.

I think that's the best perspective. I think what Todd's done is unprecedented, a gun going 50,000 rounds in a year, with 10-ish malfunctions so far?

The only nagging concern I have is so far, the Glock is the most problematic so far...

I mean honestly, replaced the extractor (the first gun never was tested Gen 4 G19), and he just replaced all the magazines.

AFAIK, That's a pistol training first.

I don't expect perfection, but it's concerning.

http://pistol-training.com/archives/5282

But the gun looks good after the LCI Extractor replacement.

As much as I want to say "I will take this gun on flaws and all", I'm hesitant truthfully.

I'll update this with the thought process as it goes.

BWT
10-01-2011, 10:03 PM
So one word has really come to me to kind of describe how I'm feeling about this decision now.

Consistency.

I thought about it while driving some this week (I have a 45 minute drive to work one way and back, etc), and I was mulling it over.

The Glocks are becoming less attractive.

I think it really boils down to this, it's a consistent issue with the guns in current production. A known issue, I can understand an out of spec part, I can understand an anomally. But it seems that Glock Gen 4's and honestly new Gen 3's (Can you really still call them Gen 3's if they changed them?) are having extraction issues, are these issues redeemable? Absolutely. Do I think Glock'll iron it out in time? More than likely. Do I plan to buy a Glock? Someday.

But for now, I'm thinking between the A) Extractor B) Recoil Spring issues C) Ejector issues, that it just doesn't seem like the foray of issues I want to wade my way into to get a gun working. I know the limitations of the M&P9, and I'm looking at them strongly again at this point, I don't like the slide stop/release, but... most of the other issues are correctable.

I think I could revisit the Glock with time, but, getting the skinny on certain parts that have the correct extractors or buying from certain years, it just has really caused me to go cold on the Glock. It's that these are known defects in the design, things that were changed, these are dysfunctional by a poor design change, that's really what's kind of chilled me to them.

I see the M&P9 with a TS as also beneficial because I can try the TS (Not going to lie, watching that guy shoot himself with a Serpa holster caused ToddG to ban Serpa holsters after being not preferred, it made me take pause on dumping the safety, lightening the trigger and switching to AIWB), and in the M&P's I can remove it if I so desire.

I think a Glock would be nice, but not right now, not with what the company's going through. As always, I'll keep you guys posted.

Thanks again for the input.

ETA: Also, I think that the Gadget will make the Glock more marketable for AIWB for me as well.

That's where my heart's at today.

ETA 2: What I also meant to say is, another consideration is, I would be adding a Grip Force Adapter to the Glock, this is already a feature present on the M&P in the shape of the gun in the more beaver tailish grip.

I could try removing the thumb safety if/when I felt comfortable, so it's nice to have that option until I'm comfortable as I transition from SWB to AIWB.

Chuck Haggard
10-02-2011, 12:05 AM
I have a *new* line of thought on new auto-handgun shooters.

Buy TWO Gen3 G19s, 5 mags for each, good holster that fits your use, a decent mounted light (I prefer the X300), 2 belt pouches, 5,000 rounds of decent practice ammo, and swap the sights for a good set (I personally like Warren's and Heinie, but I defer to those that are better on gun than I).
Attend 2 classes from well-regarded trainers and shoot all of your training ammo before considering a platform swap.

It will give you an excellent fundamental base and reference for advancement.

No, I don't think that the G19 is the be-all, end-all when it comes to pistols, but they are easy to fix, easy to find accessories, well documented, wide spread, well known, and since they are so popular, if you do decide to go to another platform it will be very easy to sell the pistol and accessories without giving it away.


I fixed that for you.